Why this atheist is more saintly than religious believers

This proves nothing except that seeming synchronicities sometimes occur in a pseudo-miraculous fashion.

This afternoon I was thinking about what to write about on this here Church of the Churchless blog, and came up with the idea of talking about how I happily allow about 90% of the blog comments to be from religious believers, almost all of whom are still adherents of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) faith that I deconverted from about fourteen years ago -- after being a strong RSSB devotee for some thirty-five years.

I was going to point out that this shows how much more open-minded us atheists are than religiously-minded people. What do you think the chances are that, for example, a Radha Soami Satsang Beas or Catholic Church web site would welcome a majority of comments that denigrate the teachings being promoted on the site?

Slim to none. (Much closer to none, than slim, I'm pretty sure.)

That's because most religions are dogmatic, while most atheists and agnostics are open-minded. Regular readers of my posts will note that almost always I say things like "Almost certainly there is no God." I talk about my atheist beliefs in this fashion because I can't be sure God doesn't exist; I just see no demonstrable evidence for the existence of God.

If that evidence came to light, either out there in the world or in here within my consciousness, I'd be pleased to change my mind. Yet how many religious believers are willing to say that? "Almost certainly there is a God,  but I can't be sure about this." 

Anyway, I was all ready to write a post along these lines when I saw that a new comment had been made by Jen. It was so close to what I'd been thinking about, I'd call it "miraculous" if I believed in miracles. Which, I don't.

Spencer, I should point out, is another frequent Church of the Churchless visitor who loves to use this blog to leave comments extolling the Radha Soami Satsang Beas teachings that I no longer believe in. Here's what Jen said:

Spencer you say: "What Brian writes is simply out of ignorance, and prejudice of others he does not know, understand or choose to believe. He simply invents an explanation that works for him. But it denegrates the legitimacy of true spiritual experience. He himself is victim to his own mind's refusal to acknowledge the evidence before him."

Spencer you also say: "This is why I strongly encourage people not to judge other people's personal experiences whom we have never met and do not know. It can't be done objectively and is generally just the bad habit of personal prejudice."

Why should we believe someone else's inner experiences? We aren't supposed to speak about them because its very egotistical and we are not really interested anyway and it just sounds like boasting. Spencer what makes you think you have the right to criticise another, especially when this is Brian's blog.

I think Brian has the patience of a saint, either that or he does not read through all of the comments, or if he does read them he allows others to have their own point of view, which is something you do not allow.

We are all entitled to choose to believe what we want. He is entitled to be an atheist, he does not preach about it and wtf has it got to do with you and vinny? Quote vinny: "Problem with atheists is that their half-baked mind is unable to comprehend Atomic energy/Shabd vibrating since ages, so the solutions they offer are half-baked. These Atheists are not worthy of sitting at the feet of any Physicist, forget about Saints. Always misguiding innocent people, more dangerous than Snakes, these Atheists are a threat to any civilized society."

Spencer, I don't understand you and vinny, you preach about love and yet you show no respect for others and their opinions.

Excellent points, Jen. 

Spencer and other religious believers are very much welcome to comment on this blog, because I'm committed to open discussion and dialogue. 

Regarding Jen's noting that either I have the patience of a saint, or don't read through all of the comments, the truth is about halfway between these extremes. I have considerable patience with people who disagree with me, and I also make a habit of scanning every comment to make sure it isn't "spam" but is at least somewhat on topic.

I read some comments in their entirety,  but lengthy comments often get just a quick glance. Even though I'm retired, I still feel pressured for time, in part because my wife and I live on ten non-easy-care acres in rural south Salem (Oregon) that require a lot of work to maintain. 

And I've got two other blogs that I write for, along with three Facebook pages related to my local citizen activism. So this Church of the Churchless blog is just one of many activities that compete for my attention.

Comments

[Juan]

TRUE SPIRITUAL SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE :

Only a True Disciple initiated, can have a True Legitimate Spiritual Experience by the Grace of a True Master.
A false or semi-true Disciple can never be receptive to the GRACE of TRUE MASTERS.

[777]

HaHa Juan
The Venezualian representative Luce or Lux, of polish origin
( strange coincidance : was a classmate of the Jean Paul Pope )

saw all his life a strange Indian man , not in dreams but regularly
in his life , who said to him
"Look for Me"

After 29 years he was for business in Bangkok and straight before a tailer's workplace
he spoiled his suite in a near restaurant
He had reunion within 2 hours and quickly entered that tailer shop

The salesman said : Ok we make a suite within half an hour
Please hurry , come in the workplace behind the curtain

Next the curtain opened and what did he see ?

A giant photo of the man who was following all his life
on the desk of an Indian Sikh Tailer, working there
Giant of course is relative, like I myself on that beach where
the Journal came flying on the non- wind, the phrase
"We chose Vivaldi"
I saw and remember thel giant big
but I have the newspaper and the characters are not hyper big
but I saw them big"

What follows, I don t need to tell
He immediately flew to Beas
where Charan said to him : "What took you so long"

Genuine spiritual experiences In & outside Juan, long before proper (haha, what an expression) initiation
Just nice to know plus again : a lot is subjective but in RSSB there is a
lot of gross materiall non-possible stuff

I heard that Luce told the story to that Pope - don't know if he believed Him

777

[vinny]

Only a disciple of any Saint/ Yogi or person taking inspiration from Saints/Yogis can say no to diktats of mind, cunning atheists speak half-truths to misguide common men. In their hearts, they know that Shabd / Atomic energy vibrates in every atom of the universe but telling this to common people would end their hegemony which is nothing but fool's paradise waiting to collapse.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Brian

You conveniently left the quote of your own remarks that I was addressing.
You dismiss spiritual experience as illusory.

You are entitled to that view. And I merely point out that this is a dogma, not substantiated.

If you can forward judgements of others' experience, claiming a scientific basis which does not exist, and ignore the reports of others you have never met, surely you can handle being given that feedback.

As for Atheism, I honour Atheism. But no true Atheist assumes an omniscient position to judge others.

That's not actually Atheism.

So let me be an apologist for Atheism.

[tucson]

Vinny wrote: "Only a disciple of any Saint/ Yogi or person taking inspiration from Saints/Yogis can say no to diktats of mind, cunning atheists speak half-truths to misguide common men."

-- Someone might say the opposite, " Only atheists can say no to the dictates of cunning Saints/Yogis who speak half-truths to misguide common men."

Who can know in the realm of the thoughts and ideas of men? How do we know who knows or not? If you really know who knows then you already know it. So where is the need for Saints and atheists? What good are they?

To me, the truth lies prior to any thoughts that come up about it. What we are looking for is where we look from. It is prior to the idea of "me". Prior to this body-mind. Prior to that thing or the other thing. This thought/idea or that. Prior but intrinsic to this manifestation/appearance. Just this. This present consciousness now without a second. Full stop. Right here. Now.

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, you aren't being honest. I've never judged other people's experiences. I've simply said that a subjective personal experience is just that, subjective and personal, unless evidence can be provided that it is something more than that -- like an experience of an objective impersonal realm.

Anyone is entitled to believe that they have experienced something supernatural that is objectively real. Countless religious believers have done that over the millennia. What they aren't entitled to do is expect that other people will accept their personal experience as a truth about the reality that exists apart from the human mind.

Further, no atheist I know of, and certainly not me, has claimed an "omniscient position," as you falsely claim. You have a habit of twisting other people's words to mean something other than what they intend. It isn't a dogma to demand proof of a personal spiritual experience, if a claim is made that the experience is of something universal.

Muslims have experiences of Allah. Christians have experiences of Jesus. Radha Soami devotees have an experience of their guru. Everybody, in fact, has ineffable personal experiences that are deeply meaningful to them, including me. But I don't go around saying that my personal experience is of something objectively real. Only religious believers make this mistake.

I also note that you didn't address a basic theme of my post, and Jen's comment: that I, along with most other atheists, are wonderfully accepting of dialogue and communication with those who hold a differing view from us. I challenge you to find a religious web site that is equally accepting of comments from atheists.

I urge you to reconsider your world view that demanding evidence for a claim about objective reality is somehow dogmatic. Actually, it is both scientific and in tune with how everyday life is lived. Nobody I know goes around believing in invisible things unless there is good reason to believe in them. For example, I believe that atoms exist, because there's substantial evidence that even though I can't see atoms, other people have conducted experiments that prove their existence.

This isn't the case with religious experiments. I know, because I conducted my own experiment in contemplative meditation for 35 years in virtually perfect conformance with what the Sant Mat philosophy required: hours of daily meditation, no use of alcohol or drugs, regular ongoing service (seva) to the RSSB community. Naturally I did have many experiences in meditation, but none that led me to believe I was contacting another form of objective reality. And though I spoke with hundreds of devotees over the years, including two RSSB gurus, nothing I heard made me believe that they had done this either.

[Spencer Tepper]

Brian
I see the blind spot. You have made two distinct statements which you conflate.

1. You want evidence to satisfy your requirements for truth before believing in anything supernatural or spiritual.

That's Atheism.

2.You argue that reports of spiritual experience are the same as reports of supernatural experience and both are false, imaginary, and illusory. Hence God doesn't exist.

That's Anti-theism. Not science. It's another dogma.

Try not to hide 2 behind 1.

They are truly different.

2.Is just another prejudice.

1.Is an open mind that is attempting to use reason and testable evidence.

1. Is worthy of all praise.

2. Is another religion, people placing judgment ouy of ignorance upon other innocent people. Another religion worthy of condemnation.

[tucson]

Spence says to Brian: "1. You want evidence to satisfy your requirements for truth before believing in anything supernatural or spiritual... That's Atheism. "

--Sorry, but that's just common sense. It doesn't have to be defined as atheism at all. I mean, let's say somebody wants to sell me some steel for knives that they say never gets dull no matter how hard it is used and won't break under any kind of extreme stress. Having experience with many types of steel I doubt this is possible, so I want to see this steel in action and tested to support the claims the seller makes before I buy it. That's reasonable isn't it?

Spence says to Brian: "2.You argue that reports of spiritual experience are the same as reports of supernatural experience and both are false, imaginary, and illusory. Hence God doesn't exist."

-- I have not heard Brian say that such experience is categorically false, imaginary, illusory. He does say that such spiritual experience is difficult to prove or demonstrate objectively to another person. Since he has not seen such demonstrable proof from anyone (which I think he would be more than glad to see), he feels that it is likely, but not impossible, that God does not exist. So, you are putting your own spin on what he says.

When Spence says, "2. Is another religion, people placing judgment ouy of ignorance upon other innocent people. Another religion worthy of condemnation.".. Really, this is an example of the pot calling the kettle black when, in fact, the kettle is another color altogether.

[Spencer Tepper]

Brian

Your remark about 35 years of experience could just be one year repeated 35 times.

All the people you spoke to were filtered through the mind of Brian.

But the biggest question that is raise by your testimony is just this..

Did you not find anything internally that you could reliably witness and learn to pursue?

So much hard scientific research with deep meditation shows actual, physical effects on the body, some of them substantive, such as altering our genetics in a healthy way.

Did you not witness any experience that could have been the internal sensory (proprioceptive) corrolate to these physical effects?

Athletes have learned to use internal imagery to control their own heart rate, muscle O2 consumption, even pain level. These are physical effects which the brain can learn to control through internal sensory focus and imagery.

That would be rudimentary for a mediator with 35 years of progress exploring and testing their internal environment.

But they attend to those images and stimuli and do not dismiss them as merely imaginary.

Contemplative meditators often discover elements of their subconscious mind emerging to conscious awareness, so they can see, understand and incorporate these parts of themselves fragmented long ago.

But you say you witnessed nothing connected to reality?

What happened?

[Dungeness]

I urge you to reconsider your world view that demanding evidence for a claim about objective reality is somehow dogmatic. Actually, it is both scientific and in tune with how everyday life is lived. Nobody I know goes around believing in invisible things unless there is good reason to believe in them. For example, I believe that atoms exist, because there's substantial evidence that even though I can't see atoms, other people have conducted experiments that prove their existence.

First, I applaud you for tolerance of differing views and for a
determinedly non-vitrolic forum. However, I'd have to challenge the
thesis that anyone can demand evidence of a non-material reality.
You legitimately believe atoms exist. So does the mystic. But,
naturally, he can't adduce any phenomenonological evidence to
prove his experiences of a non-material reality.

The only thing mystics can do is to relate their experiences gained
through rigorous meditation and suggest others can experiece it as
well. They urge others seeking that truth to unhesitatingly discard
the effort if nothing is experienced after long searching. But, if
judgment is withheld, a different approach or renewed seeking can
still be successful.

Because a higher reality is invisible doesn't mean it doesn't
exist or will magically be provable phenomenologically. Even so
there're powerful hints of its existence. Think of synchronicities
that defy explanation, intuition, the moments of love and kindness
and perfection which can't be contained in time and space, whose
measure can't be taken, that remain forever elusive unless we see
beyond the darkness within ourselves.

[Dungeness]

I urge you to reconsider your world view that demanding evidence for a claim about objective reality is somehow dogmatic. Actually, it is both scientific and in tune with how everyday life is lived. Nobody I know goes around believing in invisible things unless there is good reason to believe in them. For example, I believe that atoms exist, because there's substantial evidence that even though I can't see atoms, other people have conducted experiments that prove their existence.

First, I applaud you for tolerance of differing views and for a
determinedly non-vitrolic forum. However, I'd have to challenge the
thesis that anyone can demand evidence of a non-material reality.
You legitimately believe atoms exist. So does the mystic. But,
naturally, he can't adduce any phenomenonological evidence to
prove his experiences of a non-material reality.

The only thing mystics can do is to relate their experiences gained
through rigorous meditation and suggest others can experiece it as
well. They urge others seeking that truth to unhesitatingly discard
the effort if nothing is experienced after long searching. But, if
judgment is withheld, a different approach or renewed seeking can
still be successful.

Because a higher reality is invisible doesn't mean it doesn't
exist or will magically be provable phenomenologically. Even so
there're powerful hints of its existence. Think of synchronicities
that defy explanation, intuition, the moments of love and kindness
and perfection which can't be contained in time and space, whose
measure can't be taken, that remain forever elusive unless we see
beyond the darkness within ourselves.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Tucson

You wrote

Spence says to Brian: "2.You argue that reports of spiritual experience are the same as reports of supernatural experience and both are false, imaginary, and illusory. Hence God doesn't exist."

-- I have not heard Brian say that such experience is categorically false, imaginary, illusory."

Well, sit back, Tucson, cause you gonna be learned a bit...

Here is what Brian wrote, word for word about his judgement of the internal processing and experiences of other people he has never met. A picture only an omniscient mind reader could actually know...

"Yes, all sorts of phenomena do transpire within the minds of believers. However, almost certainly this is their own psyches kicking back against themselves. Meaning, religious beliefs result in mental phenomena produced by those same beliefs. This isn't the sort of really real reality that Deutsch, along with along scientists, are looking for."

[Spencer Tepper]

"You know how all those black people think...."
"You know how all those Jews think..."
"You know how all those Asians think..."
"You know how all those believers think.."

Brian, you are not in good company.

[Jen]

tucson says: “How do we know who knows or not? If you really know who knows then you already know it.” We are all seeking the truth and we all see what we see…
......

Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson are on a camping trip.

In the middle of the night, Holmes nudges Watson awake, and says, "Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see."

"I see millions of stars, my dear Holmes."

"And what do you infer from these stars?"

"Well, a number of things," he says, lighting his pipe:

Astronomically, I observe that there are millions of galaxies and billions of stars and planets.

Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo.

Horologically, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three.

Meteorologically, I expect that the weather will be fine and clear.

Theologically, I see that God is all-powerful, and man, his creation, small and insignificant.

What about you, Holmes?"

"Watson, you fool. Someone has stolen our tent!"

[Spencer Tepper]

Ah Jen ;)

[tucson]

Good one, Jen.

In regard to what Spence wrote above: "Almost certainly" leaves a little breathing room. But this is nitpicking.

The point is that it is up to the salesman to convince the buyer of the validity and worth of their product and for the buyer to decide when enough evidence has been provided.

I bought the RS pitch decades ago despite certain doubts and trepidation that I pushed into the background of my psyche or rationalized away. I was a starry eyed believer. One of the lucky chosen ones. What great fortune! What a karmic blessing!

I spent about 27 years from 1970 to 1997+- following the Sant Mat way (Charan initiate). Went to the Dera a couple of times. I never saw any evidence of the claims of this path in terms of dweeps full of exalted hansas in the spiritual lake of Mansorovar bowing at the feet of the exalted one as he guided me personally and safely through the allures and pitfallls of regions luminous and vast beyond comprehension through Bank Nal darkness to the spectacularly effervescent feet of the Lord Sat Purush Radha Soami. Sure, I had a little light and sound and this and that, but nothing truly transformative or revealing during a quarter century of meditation, eschewing eggs, and endlessly inquiring, "Is there lard in the beans?" Satsangis seemed to express most of the strengths and weaknesses that humans have. Nothing remarkable. I never saw anyone walking on water except the Master and his feet got wet.

I did see who the Master was and he was me, or rather "I", the universal One. His radiance was my radiance, our collective radiance we all share, all are. Gradually my need for this sort of adoring religious structure just sloughed away. I found it confining as all faces were the One Face and not just this idealized face in India. It was everywhere and paradoxically nowhere. You can't pin it down. Slippery as an eel and as immediate as a snap kick to the groin.

[vinny]

Anyone can do years of contemplative meditation with all the adjectives, all the seva/service but without conquering lust it is useless.

[tucson]

Vinny,
Who really conquers lust? It is biological, natural, God given if you will. You can't send the hormones to la la land, but you can suppress their effect with the mind or put your mind to other things. The pious monk feels his lust has finally abated as he kneels before the cross of his Saviour until, to his dismay, he feels a warm stiring in his loins as the movement of an enticing nun's hindquaters swishes by him beneath her robes.

[Jen]

I don't think conquering lust is most important. I think kindness, caring about other peoples feelings, being kind to all beings is the most important. Its not easy because we do get triggered.

Keeping on topic of this thread I'd like to show appreciation to Brian, for allowing us to share this space with him, his kindness and his patience shine through, so thank you to the 'Saintly Atheist' :)

[vinny]

Until carnal consciousness/lust is busted, higher consciousness cannot be achieved. It is the trap of kal to imprison the souls in animal/carnal bodies.

[Spencer Tepper]

The line between self disclosure, honesty, and prejudice is a slippery slope. The nicest people can be led to believe it's OK to treat others badly.

It starts off by depicting others as inferior.

My personal experience is one thing. But does that entitle me to project my limitations, or worse, upon others?

I believe real experience is humbling, and we learn never, never, never to make judgments of the veracity and legitimacy of other people.

To make excuses saying "But he's worse" is no excuse for violating the Golden Rule.

This is why I like true Atheists. They don't pretend that others suffer their shortcomings, that no one can make more progress than they have achieved. They don't pretend.

But when people judge others' internal processes with no actual knowledge of what's going on in their head, just projecting their own experiences upon others, well, that's prejudice, and in history it has led to terrible harm.

I'm sorry Tucson you did not see the swan souls of lake Mansarover.

And you are right to acknowledge it.

But whether they exist or not for others is beyond your experience.

Otherwise good people cross that line without knowing it. Whole nations do it. It is unkind. And any connection with objective fact simply unproven.

[Jen]

tucson, you do make me laugh, as in... "the movement of an enticing nun's hindquaters swishes by him beneath her robes". Its so absurd its funny!

Gotta have a sense of humour...

[Jen]

Hi guys, where are y'all? Damn, I miss having someone to argue with ;) Spence, Jim ?? Sorry for my over politically correct comments :(

[Arjuna]

Stop picking on Brian!!!he is right and all of you are wrong!!!

All I hear is Rah Rah Rah - not one of you have evidence!!! Not one of you!!!

True Satguru is money - simples. It’s that simple!!!! Get that in your head and you may go far!!!!

None of you have any experience within - not one iota if you. Keep fooling yourselves you have.

Phew rant over - hope you are all well x

[Arjuna]

In fact this is how I feel reading some of the responses to Brian .

Watch this clip from BBC serious Sherlock

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6J_AUBT-PAo

[Spencer Tepper]

OK Jen

I've had my coffee, and slept little, so now that I've only a quarter of my attention available, I'm in that perfect zone to address your question.

You wrote

"Why should we believe someone else's inner experiences? We aren't supposed to speak about them because its very egotistical and we are not really interested anyway and it just sounds like boasting. Spencer what makes you think you have the right to criticise another, especially when this is Brian's blog."

" 1.Why should we believe someone else's inner experiences?"
You should never believe anyone else's experiences.
And furthermore you should test your own thoroughly.
But you should never judge anyone else's experience. You can't do it rightly. You simply don't have enough information. And doing it wrongly, imposes our prejudices upon others. That is unkind.

2."We aren't supposed to speak about them because its very egotistical and we are not really interested anyway and it just sounds like boasting."

We aren't supposed to speak about them? So now that you wish to censor me you are an obedient Satsangi?

Better to be the one annoying exception to your, Arjuna and Brian's prejudice then to allow that bias to go unchallenged.

Arjuna, if you are bored, think how lively this blog would be if only those who agreed were in it.

As for some kind of virtue that Brian allows people to speak their opposing views, check out the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry (CARM). These are fundamentalist Christians who believe Atheism, Hinduism, even Judaism is bad and wrong, but their website not only allows people of all beliefs to engage in lively discussion with fundamentalists, they provide whole chat rooms and separate blogs for Atheists,Buddhists, etc and actively invite their participation.

If you think allowing dialog is saintly, CARM, by that criteria is Godly.

I think open dialogue is the bare minimum of decency, and not worthy of much praise.

But censorship is certainly worthy of condemnation.

Lively debate among opposing views is refreshing to any true intellect. We are all moving forward at different places, but our origin and destination are identical. And in the most important matters, we are equal.

This $11 sack of chemicals has more going on inside it than its physical, objective value.

"Brian's Blog"

Yes it's his restaurant, but everyone who writes here is their own chef.

A good owner honors their guest chefs, though each serves up a different page of the menu.

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, obviously I don't know you except through your comments. That isn't much, since you, like everybody, are so much more than the small amount that can be shared through social media.

So with my very imperfect knowledge of you I just want to say, thanks for contributing to the "comment dialogue" on this blog. You strike me as a highly intelligent person who is deeply committed to being the best person possible, and understanding the mysteries of the cosmos to the greatest extent possible.

In short, and speaking in my usual non-humble way, you remind me a lot of... me.

What I think about a lot, and I'm thinking this way now, is how I can be the person I was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, or 60 years ago, and also the person I am now, at 69. I have a feeling that if you were able to talk with the person I was at 30, say, you'd find that we agreed on almost anything.

But since I've changed, now we disagree on some things. Those things, though, are a small subset of all the things that people agree or disagree about. They simply happen to be the things that get discussed on this blog.

Which leaves out art, literature, movies, politics, environmentalism, business, music, and so much more. I suspect that if we were able to talk about the wide range of things we're both interested in when we're not focused on spiritual stuff, we'd find that we have a lot in common.

Keeping this in mind, which I'm not able to do as often or as well as I'd like, helps me keep things in perspective. Everybody is doing their best to get through life the best they can. Life is tough, even in the best of circumstances. And when the circumstances aren't the best, which for most of us is the case, life is even tougher.

Anyway, I just wanted to express my appreciation for your steadfast commitment to what you believe in. From what I can tell, those beliefs are quite close to what I believed in myself for a good share of my life, about half of it, 35 years or so.

Thus when I argue with you, in a sense I'm arguing with who I used to be, and to some extent still am, since whatever we were at one time is still a part of us. This sounds strange, because it is. And that's a wonderful thing, since if life wasn't strange, it would be a heck of a lot less interesting.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - if you share your experiences - YOU are Gods RIVAL. He doesn’t show you for you to tell others. He can tell others himself.

By telling others you lose what you have gained and the person to whom you have opened up to gets your grace and you his Dross. Sin that is. You suffer not gain by opening up.

Maharaj Charan Singh said that and the Great Master - don’t say I did not tell you. What do I care anyway should be my attitude.

I doubt very much God wants people to tell about the inner experiences.

Yes it is boring repeating this but you may argue that it’s a control mechanism by fake Gurus - maybe. However - You alone will know he answer to wether it if or not.

Right brother I’m bored again

[Spence Tepper]

Arjuna!

RE: Sharing our experiences, again, are you an obedient Satsangi now, quoting the Master?

Brian!

Thank you. It is actually from you that I have come to appreciate the nobility and truthfulness of Atheism. I now hold it in very high regard.

[manjit]

Spence:

"Thank you. It is actually from you that I have come to appreciate the nobility and truthfulness of Atheism. I now hold it in very high regard."

That's interesting, because Brian has been a wonderful teacher to me too, and I mean that genuinely and sincerely.

From Brian.....possibly more so than anyone else, though there are notable others..... I learnt how similar atheism is to other belief systems, how the mind is closed off and unable to process or reasonably debate information and arguments which contradict that belief system, and instead descend into the very same incoherent & emotive tactics of followers of any other religious belief system.

Cheers! :)

[Spence Tepper]

Arjuna:

One more point.
I don't own my experience anymore than I can own the sun.
And if I wanted to brag, it would be to other Satsangis, not atheists or agnostics.

I'm free, Arjuna.

Jen also speaks to that personal freedom.

I love my Master, what else can I say.

But I wouldn't suggest that you judge my relationship to Him. That's internal.

I don't mind if you think I'm delusional.

If you experienced what I have experienced throughout life, you would have to conclude that is a real possibility.

But there it is.

And I do not apologize for it. I do not silence my voice for anyone on anything.

My love affair with my Master is entirely personal. There are things i will never share.

But these things you say don't exist, then I am witness that at least in my experience directly, not through belief of writings, but my own experience, they are real experiences, recurring, and as reliable as the air and the sky.

[tucson]

On paper, in terms of "crystalized" thoughts and concepts, many of us appear to be at adds with each other because words don't move, flex or adjust to mood and circumstance, to the nuance of gesture and expression or vocal tone. There the thoughts are, set in stone, and that's it and we react according to our conditioning and beliefs. Much gets lost in translation even if we all speak the same language.

I imagine if we took a walk in the park together as human beings and not concepts on a blog we would get along pretty well.

[Dungeness]

"...words don't move, flex or adjust to mood and circumstance, to the nuance of gesture and expression or vocal tone. There the thoughts are, set in stone, and that's it and we react according to our conditioning and beliefs. Much gets lost in translation even if we all speak the same language."

Well said.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - yes I do my best but wake up most mornings wanting to kill myself as all my family died when I was young - but something carries me on.,, yes I’m flawed but that’s the beauty of it

But who does live in His Will - not You nor I. You troll Brian - give the man a break man - he is only stating common sense. Whilst you fire away things I can’t quantify. Peace out man

[manjit]

Tucson - great post.

Dear Arjuna - I feel the pain in your posts, it seems you've had a hard life with lots of tribulations.

Though I've perhaps not endured the hardships you have, I too have felt great despair, sadness, loneliness, could see nothing but a cold, unloving, mechanical universe, no reason for existence.....several very deep and "dark nights" where annihilation from existence seemed like it would be blessing......

I have found, though, sometimes from this great pile of shit, this immense & overwhelming universal suffering, perhaps even because of it, if you give yourself the space to just breathe and be, that a beautiful flower can grow, the beauty of which obliterates all that suffering and makes sense of it all. I know these are just words, but I just ask of you that you, occasionally, just give yourself some space to "be". I have found "openness" to "grace", "love" or "self-compassion", however you want to model it, can be a very healing thing.

Anyway, take care & be kind to yourself, who knows what tomorrow may bring!

Manjit

[Jen]

tucson says: "I imagine if we took a walk in the park together as human beings and not concepts on a blog we would get along pretty well."

So true! I often think how wonderful it is to have somewhere we can vent and express our thoughts and feelings and this Churchless group seems like family, sometimes a bit dysfunctional but hey thats family innit...

[Spencer Tepper]

"But who does live in His Will - not You nor I."

Do you really care about that?

Arjuna, I don't feel sorry for you.

You're too tough for that.

Common sense is a dangerous thing.

If it's the sense that's common, run for hills!

[Arjuna]

@ Manjit thank you and may you never have to go through my trials.

@ Spencer - I didn’t seek your pity and yes you are right I am too strong for that. I was merely telling you my feelings and situations. Gurinder has a lot to answer for - kicking down people who seek the truth or try and have love. He doesn’t know this yet but he is losing a lot of souls as many are now walking away from Sant Mat. That’s how I feel Spencer very strongly!!!!

Have a good day

[Sita]

Arjuna,when have you been in Dera?
Recently?

What happened?

[Arjuna]

Hello Sita

The last time I went to Dera was in 1991.

Life happened

[Sita]

I see dear Arjuna..

Thank you.

Yes life happens..

[Arjuna]

@ Sita - why did you ask me about when I last went to Dera if I May humbly inquire?

[Sita]

Hi Arjuna,
You was there right in the beginning of Baba Gurinder.

I have had difficulties in Dera myself.

Some periods where beautiful and blissfull

But I can't take the teachings anymore.

Still sort of attached to the Sangat.
But I am not a real ''satsangi'' anymore.

Why should I believe things what others tell?Even the master??

Feeling much more free,after discovering for myself.
And loosened up about my path.

Thanks for asking

[tucson]

Sita wrote: "Why should I believe things what others tell? Even the master??"

--Exactly. How does anyone know who knows anything about matters of Eternal Truth, Absolute Reality, God or Eternity? Saying you know doesn't mean you know. Saying you know doesn't mean anything. Even if you do know, how does anyone know you know or that you even know what you think you know or that there is anything that could possibly be known in the first place?

Consider that God (or whatever name you want to give it) doesn't know anything either. If God knew something , that something would be an object or concept other than the Source (God) of that object or concept and therefore it would be illusory.. a reflection of that Reality that can't be known as any sort of object or thing without fooling itself (which is not an "it").

Consider that Reality can't be known as this or that or even nothing at all because that which is wanted to be known is that which wants to know it. We try to objectify that which is functioning. We call it "me" or "tree" or galaxy or whatever. We make a noun out of a verb. Could this be the primary illusion?

Sita wrote: "Feeling much more free,after discovering for myself.
And loosened up about my path."

--Good for you. You have been liberated from the confines of relative, conditioned belief into the fullness of infinite possibility.

[Spencer Tepper]

OK Tucson,
You wrote

"Consider that God (or whatever name you want to give it) doesn't know anything either. If God knew something , that something would be an object or concept other than the Source (God) of that object or concept and therefore it would be illusory.. a reflection of that Reality that can't be known as any sort of object or thing without fooling itself (which is not an "it")."

This is really good.

[Arjuna]

@ Sita hello

I think as humans we know where love is when we see it. There was none for me .

And before any other person starts to lecture me or starts to write philosophy crap trap- I have a lot to give but it’s on me hidden and buried.

[Arjuna]

@ Sita what do you mean by?

“Hi Arjuna,
You was there right in the beginning of Baba Gurinder.”

[Spencer Tepper]

Arjuna
You have everything in you. That's the point. It isn't anywhere else. It's hidden. But you need a form of meditation or practice to get to it.

The Master is always in you alone. Access is a matter of practice.

[Spencer Tepper]

You have a wrench. It's a good wrench. Who blames their tools?

But if you simply use the tools as instructed and put aside expectations long enough to do the work with an open and flexible mind, you get visible and reliable results. Things fix themselves!

The machinery works better than ever.

[Spencer Tepper]

To not meditate you have to blame someone or something.

Because they didn't meet your expectations.

Rule one. To get the work done further about expectations. NO EXPECTATIONS.

Focus just on the work. Forget about you. Leave your ego at the door.

[Spencer Tepper]

Autospell ugh.
Not further expectations.

But Forget expectations.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - I’m lost for words brother. Blame? Looooooool. More like a cry for help.

Goodbye !!!!

[Dungeness]

Why should I believe things what others tell? Even the Master??
--Exactly. How does anyone know who knows anything about matters of Eternal Truth, Absolute Reality, God or Eternity? Saying you know doesn't mean you know. Saying you know doesn't mean anything. Even if you do know, how does anyone know you know or that you even know what you think you know or that there is anything that could possibly be known in the first place?

But, rather than dogmatizing about what they "know" (or expounding
on what's knowable and what isn't), mystics speak only of what they
have experienced within and suggest a method to see for yourself.

Ishwar Puri, echoing Great Master, relates:

I will never suggest to anybody to try something that has not
worked for me. Even if it's good. I don't believe in hearsay.
I don't believe in a second person's opinion. Nor should
you. You should not say, "Because he said, I believe it."
That's not good enough. That's blind faith.

[Dungeness]

expounding on what's knowable and what isn't...

None of us on this forum would do that of course ;)

[Jen]

Blind faith is following, listening to, copying, believing in anyone else. Its the same as seeking for answers in this world, with our brains and in our meditation. Its all mind. We won't know until this body has died. Will we wake up then? How can we know what happens after death because we are still in this physical form. People who have inner mystical experiences are still in their body. I have had OBE's and looked down and can see myself but its just my mind projecting. I think life is easier when we stop trying to figure it out.

On my morning walk this morning I was imagining that I'm some kind of little character living in a simulation so I may as well enjoy the game and be interesting! So, better to stop worrying and giving power away to some guru or teacher, just enjoy and be the best we can..."expounding on what's knowable and what isn't..." heh!

[777]

sita said
Why should I believe things what others tell?Even the master??

STARWARS :
a billion people at least felt whay was ment by :

"There was an abberation in The Force"

"May The Force be with U"

But ex initiates don't understand that . . . . . . . bull shit

777

Try the Song I placed last week

"Everywhere I go , I see Your Face "

Perhaps better call the Sound, Shabd : THEFORCE

[pooh bear]

Hello Jen,
You said: 'So, better to stop worrying and giving power away to some guru or teacher'.

I would like to know what you mean by 'giving power away'. You have used this turn of phrase in earlier posts as well, and I have thought about it, but can't arrive at an understanding.

I don't wish to argue with you or attempt to foist my own ideas on you. I'm just interested in what you mean because it is the opposite of my own experience. Charan Singh empowered me to take control of the withdrawal of consciousness from my body and experience something other than what I experience with the senses. So you can see how I don't understand your saying, 'giving away power to some guru'.

I look forward to hear back from you on this.

BTW: I think you live in South Africa don't you? I lived there for a number of years a long time ago.

[Spencer Tepper]

You can't give away to anyone what you don't actually have.

If, by disciplined practice, you gain the power of will, then you at least have that. That becomes your own wealth. Whoever taught you that practice is your benefactor.

If by distraction you cannot keep your commitments, then what do you have to give to anyone?

[Jen]

Hi poo bear,

Yes, born in Durban, South Africa, left when I was 30, with husband and children, 5 years in New Zealand and then immigrated to Australia.

Giving our power away... sure we can learn from others but to totally submit to some kind of teacher/guru and expect that person to save us seems to me like victim energy and I've been there done that.

Also no need to constantly attack 'ego' like satsangis are prone to do. We all do have personal power and watching and observing self is a good way to see our negative issues and change them into positivity.

Marianne Williamson quote: "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our Light, not our Darkness, that most frightens us."

[pooh bear]

Thanks for your explanation Jen. I think I understand where you are coming from on the giving away power idea, but have arrived at a different place myself.

We are on the same page on the subject of the mindless attack on ego. My experience of satsangis generally is that they tend towards dogmatic fundamentalism without ever looking beyond the cultural context in which Sant Mat books have been written. I have found that interacting with Indian satsangis outside India that their understanding of the teaching is very much bound to their own cultural traditions. Westerners have imbibed much of this. It is also reflected in those books that were originally written for an Indian audience and translated into English. Mostly, I find satsangis a confused lot, but I do know many clear-headed independent thinkers among them who don't imitated the masses.

Ha! - I would have visited Durban numerous times in the 60's while you were there. I remember it well. I'm from England, but have spent a few years in South Africa, and like you, a few years in NZ, only to end up, like you, in Australia. I've been here since 1981.

[Jen]

I guessed someone calling himself pooh bear would be from England ;)

My parents were from Kent, England. I've lived in three countries and nine different towns/cities/villages!

Strange karma, although I feel that moving a lot is good because it makes one quite independent and not very attached to this world. Lucky to be in Australia. I no longer go to satsang. Sounds good that you know clear-headed independent thinkers among the satsangis.

I'd like to have a chat with you via email - could you perhaps ask Brian to send me your email if thats okay with you?

Cheers, Jen

[pooh bear]

OK - I'll do that.

BTW - I've been contemplating your name, your wanderings and the timing, and I think we have met before.

[Dungeness]

Blind faith is following, listening to, copying, believing in anyone else. Its the same as seeking for answers in this world, with our brains and in our meditation.

That's a very expansive view of blind faith. I think most think of
it more narrowly as a rigid, continuing belief without corroborating
evidence. But, I'd agree in the beginning there must be a minimal
faith to do virtually anything, a certain trust that the risk is worth it -
whether it's starting school, taking medication to heal, entering a
new job, or even having confidence in ourself.

We won't know until this body has died. Will we wake up then? How can we know what happens after death because we are still in this physical form. People who have inner mystical experiences are still in their body. I have had OBE's and looked down and can see myself but its just my mind projecting. I think life is easier when we stop trying to figure it out.

That's the whole premise of mysticism though-- that we don't have
to physically die to see what happens after death. We can wake up
before we die. When we reach the highest stage, we become aware
of all levels of reality while still in the physical body. And you don't
have to "figure it out". It's all a matter of our attention. At least in the
beginning. Then, I afraid it does get fuzzier because the mystic insists
only love and devotion will pull us at a certain level.

At least mystics assure us we don't have to rely on our notoriously
untrustworthy intellect at all to get there. And the best part is
part is we don't have to wait till we croak physically. Whew!

"All men in this world are prisoners waiting for death, except for
a few rare ones whose bodies are in prison but whose life is lived
amidst the stars.""
Jalaluddin Rumi

[Jen]

pooh bear,

I've just been watching youtube coverage of rioting in Australia against 'white' South Africans. Really freaky.

Not going to comment here anymore. Upset Dungeness. I'm looking forward to death, this world is effing scary.

[Dungeness]

Hi Jen, Hope I didn't upset you... I was just on a rant.

[Jen]

Dungeness, its okay, its not you, I'm just depressed.

[Spencer Tepper]

The issue of ego is simply pragmatic.
If I'm focusing on me instead of the work, the work doesn't get done. So I ness must go, to be fully focused on the task.

That is true of any endeavor.

To suggest those who believe differently are wrong or ignorant is itself a form of ego, I ness, distraction.

Anyone accomplished in getting things done understands the necessity of leaving ego at the door.

It is not a unique requirement of meditation, but all high level performance.

Those aren't book quotes.
They are common sense from practical experience going it both ways.

[777]

Of the many miraculous stories, we all know/ heard/ experienced perhaps

If only one millionth of all that is true and all others bullshit

Then these RSSB Witches of OZ, ° ° ° Jen says: some guru_guy . . . what they offer/promised
is so endless much more than 'power' we still think to possess

Be smart

But anyway : Sant Mat"s manmuks : we get still get the best place at the table
But love before death is nice too

777

[Jen]

Spencer you talk of ego. 777 you call me a witch of OZ.

I am very aware of what I am going through at the moment and its not just simply about ego. Eckhart Tolle speaks of the Pain Body and thats what I am feeling. Why do I realise that this is my pain body because of my crying and sobbing at the moment. So, not going through a good time. I am glad that I am facing this pain body which I have restrained for a long time. Its about White guilt.

Example of when we first arrived in New Zealand and I was told "If I knew you were South African I would not have spoken to you" also, "I hate South Africans" came up often. So what was my reaction - I closed up on myself, kept away from people, just concentrated on my family and did not make many friends.

Australians are also tough and blunt, so I changed my accent very quickly, never told anyone where I was born, kept to myself once again and have lived a very isolated lifestyle ever since my family have grown up. I live on my own.

The incredible thing is that I am a very kind and sensitive person, although I have had to toughen up to be able to deal with my surroundings.

This current triggering of my pain body is because of the problems of White genocide in South Africa. I have to try not to get emotionally entangled which is not easy. People don't care that the whites are being murdered because they are against the white South Africans - which is racist anyway.

So, Spencer with your usual preaching about ego, you have no idea of what I am going through. 777 you and your 'love' talk seem to be fake, but I really don't care. You also don't know what its like to be attacked and an outsider because of the colour of your skin and where you were born. Its not easy.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen

I'm sorry you are going through pain of any kind.

And I would like to offer support on that if I can.

But as for my comments about ego, that is not my interpretation of your situation at all.

It is my understanding of what interferes with meditation.

You can take your pain into meditation.

And it will be transformed.

That is your own personal philosophers stone.

It only requires a little effort and practice, like any skill or exercise.

Let me repeat a theme I've proposed here in the past. No one needs to believe even in God or in any such thing as spirit to gain the substantial physical and psychological benefits of a good meditation practice.

But they need to believe their practice is beneficial. At least enough to carry on with it.

Your ultimate question about life after death has no purpose if there isn't any.

But to ignore meditation is to ignore the deepest parts of oneself. There is no benefit to it. Judging and evaluating become destructive if they get in the way of our own internal practice.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer

You really have no clue as to how to comfort people who may be on the edge- as myself. You do have a knack of putting your foot right into it.

It’s a bit like my friends telling me “chin up”. It doesn’t help. Even the Master Gurinder has said if one is in such a state - one should seek medical or other help.

Seriously tread carefully when dealing with people who are at wits end. Compassion goes along way and saying do your meditation does Not help.

Just take this as advice as me judging you as I am and will when I see people be insensitive to others. I am a hard man and still show compassion to others when I can. But will interfere when bad advice is offered as people who are tender cannot mediators it’s the last thing they want to do. Sleep is what they would rather do.

On that note have a nice weekend

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Arjuna

There is love and there is tough love.

Yes, sometimes a little honey, a little kindness, a hand offered helps each other to heal and to soften, and to grow.

And encouragement to stand and walk is actually filled with good will and faith in the other person. Especially if the advice is advice we ourselves have learned to treasure and follow. Then we are sharing our greatest wealth.

But when that good intention and openness is met with harsh judgment, then we must ask, what sort of wealth does this person have that they can put aside their own development and criticize? As if the Idea of personal progress doesn't apply to each of us, as if they are beyond the necessity of effort, of trial and error, of daily striving for their own next step?

That complacency, hardened by negative judgement, denatures a person of the only true human quality, the capacity to create progress and connection.

If you are afflicted, let me comfort you.

If you are comfortable enough to judge a helpful hand, then my words, the same words of encouragement that comforts a brother, will afflict you.

But that little dose of truth will also help, as a grain of irritating sand is the seed of every pearl.

"Discontent is the basis of progress in man and nation"
The Tao

[Spencer Tepper]

And that seed of truth is simply this.

Human beings were in part designed for meditation and devotion.

It is extremely healthy. It dramatically slows the aging of the brain. It strengthens and alters even your DNA. It is the source of peace and happiness under the most horrific circumstances, if you build that atmosphere and the depth of that practice. It improves even your cognitive functioning, and gives you wisdom.

There simply is no excuse for most people to avoid it. Meditation, like diet and exercise, is the basis of a portable and lasting happiness, and health depends upon these good practices.

And that then becomes your Responsibility. No one else's.

If questions of God and Gurus is anyone's excuse to avoid mediation, they are just deluding themselves.

[Jen]

Spencer,

We are all different and I have always had an aversion to meditation. The three other principles are easy, vegetarian diet, no alcohol, drugs etc, living a moral life. Maybe my instinct is correct (for me) because I do suffer from melancholy, depression and anxiety. This is why I live a very quiet and solitary lifestyle and manage very well, but meditation can be quite harmful for someone like myself, an introvert, very sensitive, very intuitive and an empath. I do understand myself because I am very introspective. I don't think you should be advising people (like me) to meditate, it probably suits you but may not suit others.

I came across this article, please read it. I have copied and pasted some of the paragraphs below...

https://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/3-hidden-dangers-meditation-you-should-know.html

3 Hidden Dangers of Meditation You Should Know
Without attempting to be alarming, psychiatrists are now increasingly sounding a warning that mindfulness meditation can have troubling side-effects that are intimately connected with the benefits. Keep in mind that the following concerns about meditation and its hidden dangers come not from critics of mindfulness but from supporters.
...
1. It can bring feelings of ennui, emptiness and even fear

Dr Florian Ruths, consultant psychiatrist at the Maudsley hospital in south London, has conducted a number of investigations into adverse reactions to MBCT and uncovered some troubling news. She has reported rare cases of “depersonalization” where some meditators feel like they are watching themselves in a film. For some people this “depersonalization” can whip up some difficult emotions that can include feelings of ennui and emptiness, disconnection and even fear, says Ruths
...
2. It can bring changes in your sense of self, and cause impairment in social relationships
This particular concern about meditation follows the “dark night” project at Brown University in the US, which has catalogued how some Buddhist meditators have been assailed by traumatic memories. Professor Willoughby Britton, lead researcher and psychiatrist in the project, has recorded surprising problems among some of the Buddhist meditators that include: “cognitive, perceptual and sensory aberrations,” impairment in social relationships and changes in their sense of self.

One Buddhist monk, Shinzen Young, has described the “dark night” phenomenon as an “irreversible insight into emptiness” and “enlightenment’s evil twin.” Another man who felt he’d been harmed by meditation described going through “psychological hell” as a result of his practice, while yet another man worried he was “permanently ruined.”
...
3. It can be disempowering and keep you passive, contained and compliant

In the mainstream arena, mindfulness meditation is merely a tool or way for calming and focusing oneself. But, mindfulness meditation in its original Buddhist tradition is more about gaining insight into the human condition, reducing stress and suffering in our own hearts and minds, and also in the world of which we are a part. It certainly has calming benefits in situations where we cannot do much to change things and it’s necessary to calm down and de-stress.

However, there are times when we should be angry, distressed and determined to change things.

As Britton cautions, meditation is not all calm and peace. It opens up a space for you to see what’s going on in your mind. Psychological material (old resentments, wounds, trauma etc.) can surface that require additional support or even therapy.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen

The very article you cite also states

"An Oxford University study, for instance, has found that mindfulness-based cognitive therapy (MBCT) courses can reduce relapses into depression by 44%."

So yes meditation can be very healthy.

The research shows that it generally is.

But even aspirin can be harmful in rare cases.

The side effects you cite are anecdotal.

And in uncontrolled circumstances.

Everyone must make up their own mind. Even a car is dangerous handled improperly. Should we give up driving? Or become more responsible drivers?

"If man were meant to fly he would have wings?"

I don't think so.

Meditation might not be right for you.

But to suggest it is generally harmful is simply not factual. In fact the opposite is the case.

When we have reactions, those reactions come from within one's own self. No where else.

To reincorporate those elements, to reintegrate them can take many stages. But eventually that must happen if we are to become whole.

And there is no single means to strengthen our own will, our own power to befriend and reintegrate with those parts of our own psyche than the Master's Simran.

Fear is the issue.

But what you fear is you, and there is nothing there to fear and everything to love, however dark it may seem, within.

Those demons are from within you, random thoughts, unfocused reactions, individual imaginings in a mind undisciplined and off purpose, and they are shadows that cease to exist with even the faintest glimmer of light.

Jen, don't worry about the darkness.

Light the candle. That's your only job, and you have all the equipment in you. You are built for it.

Take the journey in very small, determined, purposeful steps.

[manjit]

Hi Jen,

Hope you're feeling better since the other day when you were upset at observing the suffering in the world. Nature, human nature, life, it can be truly heartbreaking.

You write: "We are all different and I have always had an aversion to meditation"

Okay. Let's hurry this along for you :)

Astral - Jyot Niranjan - every time you dream, you're there.

Causal - Onkar & "Rarankaar" - every time you enter deep sleep, you are there.

Sohang & Satnam - beyond the limits of time & space, you are ALWAYS AND ETERNALLY THAT, and THAT is your true home. There is no "coming" and "going". It just IS the SUCHNESS of reality without the illusion of individuality.

There you go, you are now officially a Satguru. You perpetually inhabit all these realms simultaneously. No meditation needed.

Now go and enjoy the appearance of your limited existence!

Hope that wasn't TOO many words, words, words for you :)

Manjit

[manjit]

PS - too all those who, flatteringly quite frankly, wish to equate me with a "dancer of kal", please do note I wrote the above - and many of my other posts - to people actually initiated by a so-called RS "Satguru". They are vouchsafed liberation and Sach Khand, 4 lives max (a mere twinkling in the eye of eternity!).

It is I who is not initiated......I play a dangerous and risky game with my soul.....a banquet is laid, awaiting the divine shit of retribution to eat........

:o)

Now, enough avoided responding to Appreciative's Reader's question.....I know it's an important question for ME to answer, because I've been avoiding it all morning (despite cancelling my Saturday workout!), flaffing about with throwaway posts on another forum.

That is the sign of a question I need to answer for my own benefit more than others, I suspect.....

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Manjit

You offered what you could to help Jen. That is honorable.

It is all any of us can do.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Manjit

Your definitions of the names / regions is understandably in error. But I still find your thinking about these things creative and helpful. If we must invent an imaginary schema, I like yours.

Because anything, even imaginary, which we focus upon, every ideal, even an invention, brings the mind into focus, and that's progress.

All dream states are below and within the first stage. That also includes the 'waking' state we function in while dealing in this world. It's the state I write to you in and the state you read this in. It is actually a dream state. It's the brain. It's thinking.

It is outward focused attention and scattered attention.

When we withdraw the attention within, we are looking at a completely different place. Beyond sense. Beyond brain, so that is more immediate perception. Still limited by thoughts until the third stage.

But first as we meditate we are looking at the clockwork, sensation, imagery of our own brain.

The other regions are higher and above. Higher states of consciousness that function above brain.

It is understandable that people might confuse Astral and higher for their own imagination, dream state, even calm and clear thinking state. That is entirely understandable. We generally try to fit what we read and hear into our range of experience.

People look at their own levels of brain consciousness and try to fit the spiritual regions into it. But they are beyond all of that. They are higher levels of consciousness altogether.

However, just as the dream world evaporates when we awaken, and in retrospect we see it as shadows and imagination, though based on our experiences in this world, so this world, this 'wakeful' state is just an illusory dream in the higher regions based on realities we never fully comprehend from the one dimension, single point of experience our brains function from here in this physical prison cell.

But the problem is we must enter this cell, this dream state while functioning here because here we function through this seriously flawed and limited physical brain. We must enter this single point of time, place, persona and perspective.

We have to use sensory reports, facts, concepts as surrogates for reality. We have to "think ' about things to understand them because we have been limited to a sensory connection.

Our real world becomes the constructed world in our heads that use as the map to navigate this world. And we never take our eyes off that map. It's all we see.

When you become one with the object of your focus there is no delay of reported limited information through which we gain a mental picture of what we are looking at.

Instead, we become that. Direct perception.

Even the word perception is wrong to express it.

For that wet must withdraw completely from body, sensations and thoughts. You can't stop the brain from thinking. But you can slow it down long enough to step off this train for a while, through the tenth gate.

[manjit]

Hey Spence! Thanks for a great post to riff off :)

You write - and I'll only respond to this part, as the rest is simply conceptual & speculative elaboration based on a fundamental, and essentially unarguable, error imo:

"Hi Manjit

Your definitions of the names / regions is understandably in error. But I still find your thinking about these things creative and helpful. If we must invent an imaginary schema, I like yours.

Because anything, even imaginary, which we focus upon, every ideal, even an invention, brings the mind into focus, and that's progress.

All dream states are below and within the first stage. That also includes the 'waking' state we function in while dealing in this world. It's the state I write to you in and the state you read this in. It is actually a dream state. It's the brain. It's thinking."

No my dear friend, YOU are in error! It is "understandable" - you have been told to believe these things by exclusively proto or post-Radhasoami (last 200-250 years, max) elitist literature, theology & dogma. Chuck the vagaries of the infinite capabilities and flexibility of our consciousness to flesh out our concepts in visionary experience.....

I, however, have thoroughly, deeply, researched these concepts, cosmologies, systems etc, going right back into pre-historic time. You don't need to go that far back, only in the last 200 or so years has this bio-locating of spiritual experience been elevated into the Radhasoami cosmology we have today, conceptual re-shuffling which serves nothing except building a sense of specialness & elitism, a gift to the ego!

For thousands of years the dream state was considered to be the astral, deep sleep the causal, and beyond that was "reality".....in the very same systems from which bhakti yoga, shabd yoga and Radhasoami mat evolved.

So when tantric yogis, like the Goraknathas, did the exact same practices (after extensive preliminary "kundalini yoga" practices, shabd yoga simply being an extension & therefore part of the same practice), had the exact same experiences, the same sounds and lights, they were, all of a sudden and never before that, 200 years ago meditating on "lower" chakras and regions - what is this "shabd" in the heart (clue; anhat) chakra? Ahh, kal has trapped these yogis once again!

Oh how special RS satsangis must be, so blessed! Never mind the actual content, description and "benefits" from such practices were identical - well, let's be honest, they probably had a LOT for success ration back then than today's RS followers! - just understand we're special, unique, and only MY satguru can reveal your own truth and consciousness too you, how dare you think otherwise, he POSSESSES your truth and your consciousness.....

I suspect you may not realise that even the Sikh Gurus - progenitors of the RS faith in many ways, at least symbolically, even if they did practice yogas which today's RS gurus denounce as of "kal" - would also agree with what I write here? Have you read the Granth Sahib - not those bits quoted in RS books - but a complete, independent translation?

Where is your triloka, dasam dwar, mansarovar? Is it not in the 3rd region of RS cosmology? According to your conceptual speculation of where our "mundane" dreams are had, bio-location wise, how far above the body/head is "astral" or Niranjan again? So we're already "out of the body", right? Then at the top of the 2nd region (? I forget, these comsologies can get so silly & convoluted!) is found this dasam dwaar? Would you agree I have generally got that right, according to your knowledge of RS comsology (and, that IS what we're discussing, not some personal "realisation" :).

If that is the case, are the Gurus of the Granth Sahib also confused, because they seem to think dasaam dwar is IN the body? And why wouldn't they, that's how the concept existed for many hundreds if not thousands of years!? It's actually ridiculous to think they would believe otherwise - unless one suffered under the misapprehension that RS cosmology has always existed in it's current, elitist form?:

"Dasam Duar is the abode of the inaccessible, Infinite Supreme Being; in the body there is a niche where He abides (Beni, SGGS, p 974)."

"The Creator put the soul in the body and gave it life; the body has nine manifest openings and a tenth is concealed; the tenth gate is shown to those who approach the Guru with devotion (M: 3, SGGS, p 922)."

"The jewel of God’s Naam remains concealed in a chamber in the body- fortress; when we find a true guru we are motivated to search for it; once it is found the soul merges in Him (M: 4, SGGS, p 1178)."

"The body has nine gates, they should be constrained from wandering;
when one comes out of the grip of the three gunas, the tenth gate opens, one gets the Vision and the mind becomes ecstatic (Kabir, SGGS, p 1123)."

Etc etc etc, there are literally thousands of such quotes from numerous pre-1700s that demonstrate this is pretty much unarguable.

But, etc etc, blah blah.

Knock yourself out with your elitist cosmology.

I get the impression it is a very soothing cosmology to your individual sense of specialness & uniqueness.

And Sat Purush Damn it, you ARE SPECIAL & UNIQUE!!

But so is Jen, Arjuna, Jim, One Initiated, perhaps even Brian........perhaps even a divine shit eating fool like me! :-o

[manjit]

"Even better than being awake, is the dream in which I dwell with God."
SGGS page 816

"In sleep, I saw my Husband Lord; I am a sacrifice to that dream."
SGGS page 1100

"In a dream, I was lifted up; why didn't I grasp the hem of His Robe?
Gazing upon the Beautiful Lord relaxing there, my mind was charmed and fascinated. "
SGGS page 1362

"Kabeer, if someone utters the Name of the Lord even in dreams,
I would make my skin into shoes for his feet. "
SGGS page 1367

"You know the One Lord while dreaming, and the One Lord while awake. You are absorbed in the One. "
SGGS page 1394

These deluded pretend Gurus!

But it is "understandable" - they thought the meagerly ruler of the first region was God!:

"He Himself is Niranjan"
SGGS page 2

"O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||
He cannot be established, He cannot be created.
He Himself is Niranjan"
SGGS page 3

"Jab ek niranjan nirankār parabẖ sabẖ kicẖẖ āpėh karṯā. ||3||
When the Immaculate (Niranjan) and Formless Lord God was all alone, He did everything by Himself. ||3||"
SGGS page 216

comment: "formless?" First region?

"Jah niranjan nirankār nirbān.
When there was only the Pure, Formless Lord in Nirvaanaa,"
SGGS page 291

"So purakẖ niranjan har purakẖ niranjan har agmā agam apārā.
That Primal Being is Immaculate and Pure. The Lord, the Primal Being, is Immaculate and Pure. The Lord is Inaccessible, Unreachable and Unrivalled. "
SGGS page 10

Etc etc etc.

Those poor confused Guru Granth Sahib Gurus.

To be fair, you can't blame them; RS comsology and elitist dogma hadn't been invented yet!!

:)

Okay, I've already spent too long online this week, I will now toodle off....

[manjit]

Awake - Physical
Dreaming - Astral
Deep sleep - Causal
Fourth state - Turiya, Soul, Sach Khand.

Hey Spence, honestly, before you wish to discuss this further, please educate yourself with some knowledge from outside of official RS literature, and familiarise and re-frame your understandings of some concepts, perhaps according to the words of the Sikh Gurus, like Nanak?:

http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart87.htm

"ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧॥: Chaare beda kathahi vakhiaan. Teen avasthaa kahahi vakhiaan. Turiya Avasthaa satgur te jaan ||1||: The four Vedas describe the world of objects. They explain and expound three states of consciousness. The Turiyaa Avasthaa, the Fourth State of consciousness (union with the Lord), is known through the Satguru ||1|| (sggs 154).

The first state called waking-state-ego, results from the false ego enjoying the expression of consciousness through the gross body. In the waking-state-ego, we are aware of our body, mind, and experiences gained in the external world of the sense-objects. To put it otherwise, in the waking-state the consciousness becomes dissipated through the mind and the sense organs in the external world of sense-objects and registers knowledge of them. That's all. To put it otherwise, while awake, the only enjoy known to man is these five fields of the objects of the five cognitive senses - forms, taste, sounds, smells, and touches. Hence, conditioned consciousness (false ego) confounded itself with the frame of the body, seeing through the ignorance of its own True Nature, perceives a world of sense-objects, and thus deluded by its own false perceptions, experiences the waking-state. Our knowledge of the world-of-objects in this state is the sum total of our perceptions gathered through our senses.
The second field of consciousness, the dream-state-ego, results from the play of consciousness in the subtle body. When the same awareness playing in the outer world-objects withdraws and identifies itself with the subtle body, it creates a distinct personality called the dreamer, who has for its sphere of activity the world of dreams. In other words, the state of dreamer is created when the consciousness is withdrawn from the gross body and it functions through the subtle body. As the dreamer is unaware of the gross body, he functions in the world of dreams, because he is conscious only of the inner world of objects. The dream world is nothing but a mental creation of the dreamer himself. During the waking-state, the mind experiences the world of sense-objects and gathers impressions. During the dream-state, one part of the dreamer's mind observes these impressions in another portion of his own mind!

In the third state, the deep-sleep-state-ego, the sleeper does not desire any sense-objects, nor does he see any dreams. It is the withdrawing of the consciousness from the gross (waking) and subtle (dream) bodies and functioning through the causal body that creates the state of deep-sleep. In other words, this state takes place when we are conscious of neither body nor the mind, therefore it is a state of living in which usual instruments of cognition are closed down! Here the Self identifies Itself with the causal body which is made up of nescience. The only thing we experience in deep-sleep-state is utter ignorance or negativity (void); for there is neither form, nor sound, nor smell, nor taste, nor touch. It illumines nothing in particular, except the one single idea: "nothingness". Here in the deep-sleep-state-ego, thus, the entire consciousness available in the human form is consolidated and conserved. As a result, there is no agitation in the mind, because none of the forces that create mental agitation and sorrows in the waking and dream states are present here. Therefore, in this state of homogeneous solid mass of Pure Consciousness, the Jeeva (individual being) experiences complete joy and bliss, by means of the subtle nescience. It is the gateway (cause) for the projection of consciousness into other two states of consciousness, the dream and the waking. For example, when the consciousness from the sleep-state is projected upwards, it illuminates the dream-state, and again, when the projection increases and come to the outer world, the same consciousness makes it possible for us to know the external world of sense-objects outside, in the waking-state-ego.

The waking-state-ego and the dream-state-ego are conditioned by both cause and effect. Ignorance or non-apprehension of the Reality is the cause, and the resulting phenomenal world of names and forms is the effect. In the dream-state-ego, although we are unaware of the world of outer gross objects, but we are aware of the world of plurality or inner objects. The deep-state-ego is different than the waking and dream states in that it is conditioned by only the cause. Again, ignorance of the Mool within (Jot, Source, Origin...) is the cause which gives rise to plurality, finitude, doubts, limitedness, and misunderstanding. There are no effects in the deep-sleep state as we are unaware of the multiple world of phenomenon."

[manjit]

I mean Spence, if you could read a non official RS publication, perhaps, heaven forfend, Brian could read a book not written by a rabid atheist or confirmed materialist reductionist!! :-o

My oh my, what might the world come to then!

:)

[Marko]

Manjit as i said Marko here. Man you mention kundalini and manytimes it is conected with siddhis. So did you enter any powers like that?

[Brian Hines]

Manjit, I've read lots of books by avid religious believers. Hundreds, for sure. This includes every book published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas up until 2004 or so, which means virtually every RSSB book.

My bookcase used to be filled with books written by mystics of every variety, though I donated most of them to the Salem Library some years back. I was a fanatic reader of Rumi for several years. I've also read every English translation of Meister Eckhart, a Christian mystic, that I could find.

So your contention that I only read books by atheists or materialists is absolutely wrong. I've read numerous Adavita/Vedanta books, and many Buddhist books. And this is only a sampling of the reading I've done in the area of religion/mysticism/spirituality.

Lesson: be sure of your facts so you don't make false statements. You were really wrong in your comment.

[Dungeness]

For that wet must withdraw completely from body, sensations and thoughts. You can't stop the brain from thinking. But you can slow it down long enough to step off this train for a while, through the tenth gate.

Spence, thank you. I'm blown away by your clarity and
insights.

The only alternate imagery that resonates with me is Ishwar Puri's on mind and its relentless "train" of thought:

"Mind does several things, but one thing it does all the time,
which is its heartbeat, is thinking. It must think all the time. If
it stops thinking it will die. It's like the body's heart. The heart
must beat for this body to get the proper circulation to live.
Similarly the mind must think to be alive."

"Therefore the mind thinks continuously whether you're
awake, or sleeping, walking, talking, doing anything--the
mind is thinking."

[ So you can quote Ishwar when anyone tells you to "stop
thinking" :) Also he emphasizes withdrawal of attention
rather than focusing:

"Therefore withdrawal of attention within yourself is the
secret for for all answers to all questions. If you want to
withdraw attention, you must learn how to withdraw
and not to project."

"We are used to focusing attention, which is a projection
of attention away from yourself. You can never focus
attention on anything except by moving away from
yourself. Therefore if you want to be where you are,
you don't focus attention, you don't project your
attention. You withdraw it! "

"For that we must withdraw completely from body,
sensations and thoughts."

[ I'm sure Dhyan is exempt from "Thou shalt not focus"
though since its magic draws you inside rather than out. ]

[Dungeness]

For that wet must withdraw completely from body, sensations and thoughts. You can't stop the brain from thinking. But you can slow it down long enough to step off this train for a while, through the tenth gate.

Spence, thank you. I'm blown away by your clarity and
insights.

The only alternate imagery that resonates with me is Ishwar Puri's on mind and its relentless "train" of thought:

"Mind does several things, but one thing it does all the time,
which is its heartbeat, is thinking. It must think all the time. If
it stops thinking it will die. It's like the body's heart. The heart
must beat for this body to get the proper circulation to live.
Similarly the mind must think to be alive."

"Therefore the mind thinks continuously whether you're
awake, or sleeping, walking, talking, doing anything--the
mind is thinking."

[ So you can quote Ishwar when anyone tells you to "stop
thinking" :) Also he emphasizes withdrawal of attention
rather than focusing:

"Therefore withdrawal of attention within yourself is the
secret for for all answers to all questions. If you want to
withdraw attention, you must learn how to withdraw
and not to project."

"We are used to focusing attention, which is a projection
of attention away from yourself. You can never focus
attention on anything except by moving away from
yourself. Therefore if you want to be where you are,
you don't focus attention, you don't project your
attention. You withdraw it! "

"For that we must withdraw completely from body,
sensations and thoughts."

[ I'm sure Dhyan is exempt from "Thou shalt not focus"
though since its magic draws you inside rather than out. ]

[manjit]

Dear Marko - Wow, excellent, deep respect my brother, seriously :)

Good question.....well, what exactly are "siddhis"......this is too complicated a question for late at night. Perhaps another time....;)

Dear Brian - you wrote:

"Lesson: be sure of your facts so you don't make false statements. You were really wrong in your comment."

Whoah there brother! Take a step back and bring some clarity to your perception!

I know of you, I might have heard a few things! I know you used to be an RS satsang speaker, you even authored two or three books on "spirituality", at least one of which was sold by RSSB (the irony of which should be saved for another day!)....damn, I've read at least one possibly two of your books myself, 20+ years ago!! Definitely "God's Whisper...", possibly "The One", is it, too? Hey, I even knew enough of you to predict your being "fired" as a RSSB satsang speaker a few weeks before you were. I tried to warn you :) :

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/10/ive_been_fired.html

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/messages/97467

You write: "used to be...", "I was a....". Exactly my point. Used to, in the PAST.

It's not complicated, Brian, I'm not ignorant of the "facts". A little more sophistication in communication, please! I mean in the last 20 years, since you have become possessed of the atheist, materialist reductionist, mindless meat-robot view of things, you have not challenged that belief, merely reinforced it, over and over again.

When, in a previous discussion with your good self, and David Lane, I deconstructed the inanity of your promissory materialist, reductionist & atheistic philosophy, I provided you with a very long list of reading or research material.

Did you read a single book from that list?

Of course not!

Etc etc etc.

Do I really need to state the absurdly obvious, in that you ONCE, long ago, used to read a limited amount of "spiritual" material? Even, heaven forfend, write it?!

You can insist that I was ignorant of that, but I find that a strange position to take, and one not conducive to honest debate.

All the best with your next materialist book! :)

Manjit

[Jen]

Thanks manjit for your clarity. I like this "The only thing we experience in deep-sleep-state is utter ignorance or negativity (void); for there is neither form, nor sound, nor smell, nor taste, nor touch. It illumines nothing in particular, except the one single idea: "nothingness". Here in the deep-sleep-state-ego, thus, the entire consciousness available in the human form is consolidated and conserved. As a result, there is no agitation in the mind, because none of the forces that create mental agitation and sorrows in the waking and dream states are present here. Therefore, in this state of homogeneous solid mass of Pure Consciousness, the Jeeva (individual being) experiences complete joy and bliss, by means of the subtle nescience. It is the gateway (cause) for the projection of consciousness into other two states of consciousness, the dream and the waking."

I'm attracted to the 'void' and 'nothingness', pure consciousness, joy and bliss. Is that where we go when we die I wonder. What a release from the chaos of this world!

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Manjit

You wrote

"No my dear friend, YOU are in error! It is "understandable" - you have been told to believe these things by exclusively proto or post-Radhasoami (last 200-250 years, max) elitist literature, theology & dogma. "

I'm sorry Manjit but your conclusion is wrong, because it is based on a false premise.

The principles I wrote about are only those I have verified for myself through meditation practice.

If a chemist tells you that if the blue litmus paper turns red you've got an acid pH, it's nothing to debate about. You go and find out for yourself.

Arguing what the ancient literature says, through the filter of our flawed thinking is meaningless if you can't test it repeatedly.

And then reporting those results has some value.

Just arguing without a foundation of discrimination in controlled effort, testing, results can just add smoke and no light.

I can share with you that I do this because my own judgment extending beyond what I can test has proven woefully inaccurate.

So it's got to be tested. And then I would say most of the time it's different than I'd imagined to a lesser or greater degree.

If you don't turn your own experience into a lab, including your internal experience, than it's just conjecture.

That isn't worth reacting to.

Whatever I've written is only my own repeated and reliable experience.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Manjit

As for my comments about sleep and dream states, that only comes from my background in experimental psychology. These are lowered stats of consciousness.

I understand the confusion though. By bringing the mind to a restful state you open a door to witnessing far beyond the mind.

But if you aren't vigilant in your practice, you lazily fall into dream and fantasy and lose that opportunity to step outside, by stepping inside.

But the dream state isn't going beyond anything. Those are sensations, emotions and thoughts of the brain and usually at a much lower level of consciousness. These are generated by the subconscious brain, often just to sort out the day's waking experiences in order of their impact. The human brain has a wonderful economy of imagery that combines several sensory impressions and experiences into a shorthand dream image. It's just a filling cabinet for memory organization. Once the experience has been processed the short hand imagery has no further purpose or meaning.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Dungeness.
Thanks.
I'm a big Puri fan.

[manjit]

Hi Jen - Thank you :o)

You write: " Is that where we go when we die I wonder. What a release from the chaos of this world!"

Hey, don't forget "Turiya", the "fourth state" beyond waking, dreaming & sleeping (void), that is what all the Sikh Gurus and ancient mystics said was our "true home"!! This "causal" state, associated with deep sleep for millennia, is only a kind of temporary withdrawal into oneself.

But who knows where we go when we die, we haven't died yet! :)

I do get the feeling there is nothing to be worried about though, for anyone. I personally hope, believe, and fleshed out by quite a lot of personal experience, is that ultimately the universe is a very forgiving, loving place. Ultimately. Let's hope so anyway! :)

Besides, you are initiated, if the stories these guys are selling is true, you'll be fine in 3 more lives maximum, probably not even that! Just relax and put your feet up, what can there possibly be to worry about? :o)

Hey Spence - I get it buddy! It's not that complicated! But you didn't seem to answer my questions, though?

I get it though, I really do. When somebody is not initiated by an obscenely rich businessman who inherits the family religious business, and they concentrate in the "3rd eye" region, see stars, moons, planets, tunnels, hear sounds, get "sucked out of the top of their head" and find themselves in a realm they call "astral" or "lucid dream", as has most of humanity & ALL Indian spiritual traditions for thousands of years prior to the invention of modern RS doctrine in around 1750, their attention & soul's bio-location is really in their elbow, right? Because an RS book told you that is so?

When in the hathayogapradipika or other tantric "kundalini yoga" texts, they tell people to concentrate the mind at the forehead, listen to the same sounds, coming from the right side (until it is centralised), and become absorbed into that sound, their attention & soul's bio-location is really in their ass-hole, right? Because an RS book told you that is so?

When people perform all sorts of meditation like jhanic namitta absorbtion, active imagination techniques etc, take psychedelics, have NDEs, sometimes entirely spontaneously get sucked or pulled out of the top of their head by a light or a pulling sound, their attention & soul's bio-location is really in their navel, or throat, or middle finger, right? Because an RS book told you that is so?

When I recounted my experience with Tibetan dream and sleep yogas over at RSS forum, and I explained encountering the "cave" from where thoughts were spinning out rapidly, automatically, and without sentience (in deep sleep state, ie. what for millennia was called "causal", until RS and you came along with your superiority and specialness! You're so cute :), and I became aware that "I AM THAT", "consciousness", and not these thoughts which go spinning endlessly like a mechanical process, my attention & soul's bio-location must really have been in my toe, right? Because I haven't been initiated by a semi-billionaire businessman who likes to flirt with women in his sangat who inherited the family business. And because an RS book told you that is so? (incidentally, beyond all the religious superiority and elitism bullshit, this is actually a fundamentally important aspect of the human condition & make-up! And yes, if we, any and all of us, experiment in the laboratory of the mind and body, we can uncover these mechanics of our existence, what composes our being!).

I get all this, I really do. An RS book told you so. You mention your own experiences, that's great. But how can you possibly know the experience of the vast majority of human's "spirituality" that is not related to post 1750 Radhasoami cosmology? It is clear the "dreams" you've had are ones that the vast majority of "spiritual traditions" would call dreams of unclarity. Some would place those dreams at the throat centre. The very same traditions that call dreams the astral realm and deep sleep the causal. There are dreams, and then there are dreams!

So, I get it, you're going above everyone's head, good for you! You are so blessed!

My question is simple. Do you therefore state that you have surpassed the acheivments of the Sikh & other gurus of the Granth Sahib, who - and I have provided plenty of quotes & a link to demonstrate this unarguably though there is literally thousands of more quotes and sources going back through numerous traditions and into antiquity - that they all believed the dream was astral, deep sleep causal and turiya was liberation. Further, they all believed the dasam dwar was IN the body.

A vast, copious and overwhelming body of evidence suggests this. To argue that would be inane, absurd, and a deeply delusional endeavour to undertake. But the mind driven by beliefs and concepts is hard to deter, and to just calmly observe the truth impartially can be a difficult challenge for such a one.

So my question is this, Spence, you have achieved so much, understood so much, that you now know better than all those mystics in the Guru Granth Sahib?

To clarify, again, as I wonder about attention spans :) You wrote:

"Your definitions of the names / regions is understandably in error. But I still find your thinking about these things creative and helpful. If we must invent an imaginary schema, I like yours."

It should be clear by now, Spence, this "imaginary schema" is not just mine alone, but that of all the mystics in the Guru Granth Sahib, and dozens of other traditions including buddhism, vedanta, tantra, basically everyone who was a mystic!

And you are stating your experience has show you that to be incorrect?

Whereas I suggest an RS book told you that?

Ah, tis a mystery indeed my friend.

It will take a more sagacious one than me to unravel this mystery.

Peace brother, I really like you!! I just hope that if even a tiny bit of your specialness can rub off on me, there's still some hope left!! Perhaps that banquet of divine shit will be served with intoxicating wine!!

:o)

[Arjuna]

@ manjit - I know your mindset well.

It is how I feel sometimes but I am not closed to the idea which Spencer writes that in mediation there may lie the answer.

Have a great day

[manjit]

Hey Arjuna!

You write "I know your mindset well."

Well if you could please let me know, that would be great! :)

Though I'm not sure what you mean about meditation? I am not discussing, at all, the merits of meditation in any way, pro or critical, with Spence?

And the "answer" to what? Do you have a question I'm unaware of? :)

I am merely pointing out the fact that the dream state was known as the astral and deep sleep as causal for thousands of years across all spiritual traditions, is clearly stated to be so by the Sikh gurus, and that this belief the dream state is merely a whispy nothing way below the "first region" is a relatively new conceptual fiction which as far as I can tell does nothing but disempower the average person, "jeeva", and inflate the smug sense of superiority and eliteness of the "chosen one" who has managed to find the right path and the "true satguru, out of all the hundreds of fake kal ones to get them out of the top of their head, whilst everyone else languishes in perpetual body bound delusion.

Cheers!

[manjit]

Obviously, there is a lot of context to what I write here that is lost. Over at the Radhasoamistudies forum, over 20 odd years......especially 10 years+ back, I've posted considerable amounts of information, experiences, texts, books etc, as well as numerous theories, that I would like to think paint a more holistic picture of how I think all these experiences fit together in a more, errmm "secular" way, ie. outside the confines of the RS theology, beliefs & dogma, and on a more real world, practical level. That is all lost in these throwaway posts.

I must have written dozens if not hundreds of posts describing - with copious textual support - the striking similarities between the description of the RS meditation practice experience, and that of other approaches such as wake-induced-lucid dreaming techniques.

I have often said the so called "radiant form" of the master, at it's initial stage (I fear this blog-forum is not quite ready for discussions about the deeper connections with ancient concepts such as the "inner daemon", or modern western occult techniques such as invoking one's "Holy Guardian Angel" etc), is actually an experience had just past hypnagogic imagery (stars, moons etc), at the edge of wake-induced-lucid-dreaming, it is a common method of entry, a common type of experience. Please do note the "amrit vela", 3am, is the period of sleep where REM sleep and lucid dreaming occurs most, and waking up at this time to practice wake-induced-lucid-dreaming techniques is one of THE most common methods known to humankind.

But anyway, I did notice this quote I found yesterday, and hadn't remember at all, seems to support this, somewhat. Radiant form, anyone?:

""In a dream, I was lifted up; why didn't I grasp the hem of His Robe?
Gazing upon the Beautiful Lord relaxing there, my mind was charmed and fascinated. "
SGGS page 1362"

I am inclined to say, this somewhat supports what I suggest? Please note, the word used for dream here is, literally, used for nothing else in the punjabi language other than mundane, everyday dreams "supna", it is not a world with multiple meanings.

As for dreams being way below the centre the RS experiences occur on, okay, fair enough. If you say so. Though I doubt anyone would be able to associate Spence's description of the "dream" state with the clarity & hyper-reality that others have clearly described it as. This is a far more complex & nuanced subject than simplisitic RS theology is able to contain, quite frankly. For eg., here is an experience from somebody who had a random lucid dream. Just imagine if they had a structured, consistent, devotional, 3 hours of meditation every day kind of approach to their lucid-dreams?:

""I realised I was dreaming......I rose through black sky that blended
to indigo, to deep purple, to lavender, to white, then to very bright
light. All the time I was being lifted there was the most beautiful
music I have ever heard. It seemed like voices rather than
instruments. There are no words to describe the JOY I felt........It
was a long, slow slide back to wakefulness with the music echoing in
my ears. The euphoria lasted several days; the memory, forever."
A reader's account after basic experimenting with lucid dreaming found in Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge"

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/messages/201553

PS - I recommend reading this link as I think a few people would probably find some of the quotes I pulled out from various books on there quite interesting!

Cheers.

[Arjuna]

@ majit.

Don’t worry about what I wrote - I wish you all the very best.

[Marko]

Manjit these are again very beautiful posts and insights. I remember years back i cried reading your posts on rss. But why i am having in my memory you used diferent name at first posts on rss. Can you remember?
And if you have time to elaborate on siddhis.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Manjit

Hm. What to make of your comments?

My internal experience began when I was very young.

Sant Mat offered an explanation that fits perfectly. And in following the instructions, I have been able to further that conscious, controllable experience while entirely awake, at my discretion.

You do not need to explain my experience, to denigrate it in any way.

You are offering your own interpretation of ancient writings. It is novel.

But for me, it's too conceptual. I wanted, and entered a path of personal experiential knowledge, and that is what I got.

I always believed love was real, and wanted to experience it intimately, in its highest form. That's what I got.

It always helps to have a good teacher.