Open Thread 14 (free speech for comments)

Leave a comment on this post about anything you want to talk about. Though I haven't been doing too well on this, I'll try to remember to always have an Open Thread showing in the Recent Posts section in the right sidebar. If one isn't showing, I've added an Open Threads category in, naturally, the Categories section. So you can always find an Open Thread that way.

Comments

[vinny]

David Lane's interview of Prof Kamal. Part 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jRaafBOXp8

Analysis :Astral world / Impressions of world - thoughts-lust-pleasures-psychosomatic complex forms a cover over Atomic energy vibrating in human being. These negative impressions can be countered by Astral impressions of Saint/Love of Saints. These positive impressions give rise to " Chandian Effect".
Both are impressions , but impressions of Saints save the disciple from lust and other criminal tendencies present in mind.

[Turan]

Questions about the universe to “who am I” is in the realm of our thinking – our knowledge, our science or faith. They all require faith or belief in particular thought systems – and it all hinges on the premise that thinking can provide answers. But what if thinking is not a vehicle to find such answers but is purely an extended biological means of survival.

What we know,what we sense and experience and what we think is merely that which sustains our survival. If it were to be superfluous to our survival it would never become conscious to us, it would not exist. Whatever knowledge or belief we hold, even every thought always has a survival factor. Thinking is what gives us the ability to interpret the world(s) we inhabit. Initially it helped us to expand our natural instincts of physical preservation to consciously plan ahead, make decisions and organise. For humans the survival impetus extends beyond physical survival to the survival of that which constitutes our minds, our knowledge, ideas, opinions and beliefs – it protects the (concept of) ego, of self.

Our particular cognitive content may hold concepts of who we are, how we happen to be here, how life and the universe began and so on. Whether we hold religious, scientific or secular beliefs about such issues is not important, what is important (to the individual) is the fact that his/her particular mindset in some way maintains his physical and mental life. So, as interesting and valuable as our 'mind stuff' is in helping us to survive, perhaps it is meaningless and abstract where metaphysical thinking is concerned.

We will never know the primary origins of the universe, of matter, life or ourselves yet that will not stop us trying to figure it all out. It is important for our mental health to think and feel that we are not without hope in such matters. We are genetically programmed to seek meaning and purpose, both for our physical and mental well-being.

All our thoughts, comments, opinions, beliefs – and our so-called certainties – is merely vanity; the vanity that thinks we humans with our ability to think (particularly in the abstract) is a special enough tool to think we can know. (And that applies to this comment).

It all comes down to our desire to answer the “why” question. We can and have made remarkable progress where it involves the “how” of life. Can we exist knowing that we are impotent when it comes to “why”?

[pooh bear]

Turan - Very well stated.

I have had similar thoughts about the probable limitations of the machinery thought.
I think we make a positive step forward when we realise that we are not the voice of the mind.

We are not its thoughts or its cravings. And that most of what it says is meaningless.
For the most part it trundles on in its mundane way wasting our time and energy.
Life seems to unfold by forces way outside our control, regardless of what we may think about it.

[Brian Hines]

Someone who had a problem with commenting sent me this message. I'm curious: has anyone else had this sort of problem when attempting to leave a comment?
--------------------
Howdy! I'm trying to comment on your latest Open Thread, but I get a gray circle with a slash when I try to post. Thought I'd send it to you directly :) Maybe if we figure out what's wrong on your blog, you can answer it there for others to see as well.

-Aditya

Hi! Stumbled upon your blog randomly, through a Google search. I wish more people thought this way. Existence is miraculous and glorious. It's a shame we all walk around tacitly assuming we know what it is or means.

As for the God issue, I do find a particular perspective useful. If this is all a dream, then the entire apparent universe (including time and space) is the manifestation of a mind of sorts (or a ground of latent possibilities). One goal is to get to know that mind directly (as opposed to through its manifestation). The claim is that through doing this, one can know intimately the process by which the primordial luminosity takes the form that we dream characters call existence.

Curious your take on this view.

[pooh bear]

Brian - I haven't encountered the specified problem , but I'll test the waters and see.............

[Jim Sutherland]

I have visited 67 Countries, since Aug. 2012! ( I consider my recent Tibet visit another country, in spite of it being a part of China. Its like another planet! I will add more by the end of this year, 2018, that we already have booked. On the Plane to Beijing, I was talking to a man with a Ph.D. We were comparing countries we had visited. I asked him if he preferred having a discussion with a “ well educated person, or a well traveled person.. He preferred the well traveled person, which he said was an education in itself.

If we remove Religeons from each country I visited, people every where, regardless of their Nationalities and skin colors, are pretty much the same as me. Travel has made me feel like a Citizen of Earth, but mysteriously, I still feel like I am only passing through, and do not belong any where, including the U.S. where I was born. ( Same as I feel in this Church. )

Here are the countries Ie have been to, but each has too many cities, towns and areas I visited within country to list. I am always asked which is my favorate, but I prefer where ever the sun shines the most, and where there are friendly people. Of every whete I have traveled, to date, if I had to leave the U.S. and be ome an Expatriot, Australia would be my ountry of choice. It is the mode dimilare to the U.S. But, the dfference is. Australia was founded by Convicts, but is now governed by its Citizens, whereas, the U.S. was founded by its Citizens, and is now governed by Convicts.

Countries I’ve Visited: Andorra, Antigua, Argentina, Aruba, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Bhutan, Brazil, Canada, Chili, China, Columbia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cuba, Curaçao, Denmark, Egypt, Estonia, Fiji, Finland, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Vatican City (Holly See) Hong Kong, Iceland, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Malaysia, Malta, Mexico, Monaco, Montenegro, Nepal, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Palestinian Territories, Panama, Portugal, Russia, Saint Kitts, Saint Lucia, San Marino, Singapore, Sint Maarten, Slovenia, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Thailand, Turkey, Tuvalu, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Venezuela, Vietnam, United States: 66 Total Next: China, Tibet, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Switzerland, France, Luxembourg

[Spencer Tepper]

Why am I here?.....

And so they left, disillusioned, convinced the old Guru had gone mad.
The field strewn with hundreds of platforms, all built carefully, and all rejected by the aging Master.

The Guru turned to one of the handful left and asked, "I told you your platform stinks just like the others. Why are you still here? Don't you think I've gone mad too?"

To which I replied, "I've seen so many things, that I often doubt my own sanity. It seems Yours is a little more stable than mine. I'll stay with you, if it's all the same to you."

He replied, "Don't expect any special treatment. Your platform was as bad as any.... But...

" While you are here... Would you mind dismantling all these other flawed platforms for a while?"..

[Jen]

Spencer, I can't stop looking and finding Zen quotes ;)

"Don't place your mistakes on your head, their weight may crush you. Instead, place them under your feet and use them as a platform to view your horizons."
....

"Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself"

Zen Proverb

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen

Beautiful Zen quotes. Great personal inspiration.

Thank you.

[pooh bear]

Hi Jen - you quoted:

"Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself"

Zen Proverb

Our 'Western' cultural traditions work with this idea. Even though we may not have realised it at the time, our primary and high school teachers were leading us in the direction of independent thinking and showing us the door. That's why most of us seem to consider a spiritual master to be someone who provides guidance and direction towards the door. For the most, we consider the word, 'guru' to mean, teacher.

Contrary to this, I have found that Indians have since birth been conditioned into regarding a guru as something much more. Consequently I hear from many Indians living outside of India saying things like, "Babaji does everything. I am nothing. He will save me". So they consider him as a saviour, not a teacher, and as a consequence do very little about changing themselves and their lives.

I find it interesting how cultural backgrounds shape us in this way.

[Jen]

Hi pooh bear,

Yes, the cultural difference does have an effect on satsangis and also its a good feeling to think that we will be saved and looked after when we die.

Change isn't easy because we do enjoy belonging to some kind of group and growing out of a belief system is strange and quite difficult and yet it happens.

I remember going to a satsang when Baba Ji visited and sitting on my own amongst a large crowd, the majority being Indians and not feeling like I belonged there. Especially when He spoke in their language and the crowd were laughing at his jokes. Felt like an outsider, but then that can make a person strong and independent. Probably thats why I became disillusioned with Sant Mat and now prefer to make my own way and 'follow my own bliss' :)

[Jim Sutherland]

Spiritual Skepticism will always remain until the sincere God Seeker enters and passes through the Star Gate.

How many Skeptics who have given up, because of all the reasons we read about in this Churchless Church have ever seen this Star Gate, inside, even once?

Once, is all it takes, to hook all real Mystics to keep returning there, seeking to unwrap the Mysteries.

http://yogananda.com.au/pyr/pyr_eye1.html

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Pooh Bear

You wrote

"Contrary to this, I have found that Indians have since birth been conditioned into regarding a guru as something much more. Consequently I hear from many Indians living outside of India saying things like, "Babaji does everything. I am nothing. He will save me". So they consider him as a saviour, not a teacher, and as a consequence do very little about changing themselves and their lives.

I find it interesting how cultural backgrounds shape us in this way."

Actually even Indians often start out believing the Master is just another philosopher with a turban. But their own experience of Him changes that over time.

Spiritual progress, like lab work, appears to move at a snail's pace under what can look like completely unchanging and unimproved circumstances, viewed from the outside.

In the West we look for action, visible behaviors to change. And we judge them. In the east, the view is internal and over a much longer span.

To our view the school yard hasn't changed in weeks. The Western observer can't see the children who have grown up, some even teachers now. They just see children, the same children day after day.

The yard looks the same, from the outside. No idea how many children have finally grown up there and graduated. No idea there actually is a graduation. That's how blinkered the Western view is. 'Why are so many of these children so happy? Didn't they see a few slip, and cry? Why are the others having fun? Why aren't these kids building a better schoolhouse?'

Outwardly, the observer would see nothing to explain it.

'These children are crazy / foolish / believe in fairy tails.. Ignorant.. Their joy makes no sense, and their silence must mean nothing is going on...
It makes no sense to hear them speak.'

Inwardly, the soul in love with their Master sees God, and in a moment of silent passion is raised to the zenith of this creation. Master did everything.

Change happens automatically. From within. The caterpillar didn't need to take matters into their own hands. They were built to shed their skin at exactly the right time, and not under their judgment.

Or the more intellectual mind must go through so many stages of flawed logic to arrive at the same place.

After 35 years on the path their first discovery, their own misconception : 'The physical Master isn't the all power God! They aren't real! '

And in their next lifetime they finally reach their next flash of genius: ' And "I" am nothing but a created narrative, largely fiction. And the Inner Master is in fact real! '

Third lifetime: the intellectual makes their biggest discovery, the one they've been philosophizing about for the last three lifetimes: 'It' s not about me. When I put aside "me" I'm one with all, and whole. The singular, unqualified, un - segmented attention, the purity of a perfectly clear conscience, the intense focus from devotion and submission! Wow! My entire consciousness on that perfection beyond thought, carries me to freedom in a sea of love, and the true awakening, in the lap of God. ''

"It is the empty space in the vessel that gives it form and purpose.
It is the empty hub all the wheel revolves around."
Tao.

[Spencer Tepper]

Inwardly, in a moment of sincere devotion and submission (two words repugnant to the Western mind) the soul in love with their Master sees God, and in a moment of silent passion is raised to the zenith of this creation. Master did everything.

Change happens automatically. From within. The caterpillar didn't need to take matters into their own hands. They were built to shed their skin at exactly the right time, and not under their judgment.

But the more intellectual mind must go through so many stages of flawed logic to arrive at the same place.

After 35 years on the path their first discovery, their own misconception that actually leads to a truth : 'I didn't get what I wanted. The physical Master isn't the all powerful God! They aren't real! I guess getting what I want isn't really the point of spirituality. So what is the actual point of spirituality? Looks pretty empty to me. "

And in their next lifetime they finally reach their next flash of genius: ' And "I" am nothing but a created narrative, largely fiction. And the Inner Master is in fact real! '

Third lifetime: the intellectual makes their biggest discovery, the one they've been philosophizing about for the last three lifetimes: 'It' s not about me. When I put aside "me" I'm one with all, and whole. The singular, unqualified, un - segmented attention, the purity of a perfectly clear conscience, the intense focus from devotion and submission! Wow! My entire consciousness on that perfection beyond thought, carries me to freedom in a sea of love, and the true awakening, in the lap of God. ''

"It is the empty space in the vessel that gives it form and purpose.
It is the empty hub all the wheel revolves around."
Tao.

[vinny]

Sant mat is basically bitter pill of asceticism presented as palatable candy. Now the big question is people who are not following Sant mat what they are following and what is the effect on society. A simple study can reveal the crime rates in followers of various philosophies. It is clear that even if Sant mat people do not achieve the ultimate goal of liberation they are still living honest ,respected and violence free lives.

[Jen]

I was going to say something scathing about religions and God and had this thought that everyone is entitled to their beliefs and I love these guys and don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

Now I'm going to watch some Youtubes about the holographic universe - 'how quantum physics and recent scientific experiments are radically changing our understanding of life, our reality, and our spirituality' - to each their own ;)

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen

You wrote

"I was going to say something scathing about religions and God and had this thought that everyone is entitled to their beliefs and I love these guys and don't want to hurt anyone's feelings."

How you have achieved this perfect sentiment of compassion, by whichever path you have taken, is holy.

[vinny]

Fake compassion is dangerous, all religions are good, then why there was Gulf war, Arab-Israel war, first world war, second world war, ottoman wars.

[777]

Also during wars, each Soul goes in the most compassionated way through processes of "paying back", cleaning and future possibilities.

Also before being born (here) The Soul ( of 7-chakras entities) was informed that the dream would come
and the soul (LITTLE HIGHER MIND) gave consent
having a desire to go UP and enjoys better Lust.

Look to the slaughterhouses and be amazed that some correctness still occurs on earth

This is a Mafia planet , THEY OWN IT !
We have chosen it !
We try to learn from Al Capone how to do NOT and exploit COMPASSION

No wonder that the sweet sweet Sound is a little bit difficult to catch
but by the contrasts here and its beauty the effect is so overwhelming

No better place exists for learning by "living" quote quote double quote quote

777

[Arjuna]

Brian - hello. If the present master is a fake - why hasn’t he been exposed???

[Jen]

Thank you Spencer, for your kind comment. Looks like quite a bit of animosity here on Churchless. I am an empath and sensing and feeling other beings is not an easy task to deal with in life. This is why I keep to myself a lot, dealing with people is just too much for me at times.

Even speaking on this blog is difficult for me to step out of my comfort zone but here I have found I can actually speak my truth at times but it still makes me anxious that I might have hurt someone's feelings by being too forthright. It is a struggle here in Kal's realm especially being a sensitive and yes, a compassionate person.

[Arjuna]

@ Jen - you sound lovely and are doing just fine. Don’t let anyone define you. You are awesome just the way you are and it’s only the good heart you have - you should never feel afraid of saying what you need. X

[Jen]

Thanks Arjuna, for your kind and uplifting words - much love to you :)

[Arjuna]

@ Jen - be strong which you are already as you are asking questions and have answers to some of them already.

Think like the Navy Seal 6 or the British SAS. Strong 😀. It’s night where I am so I bid you goodnight!

[Jen]

Arjuna, yes I'm feeling my inner strength slowly coming back!! Thanks bro.
........................
Hi pooh bear,

Just noticed your comment, thanks for your reply on 28th May.

I do remember also having that faith and feeling safe and protected and a chosen one, but somewhere along the way have felt the need to find who I am in my own way, even if it means experiencing a dark night of the soul.

"There can be no rebirth without a dark night of the soul, a total annihilation of all that you believed in and thought that you were." Hazrat Inayat Khan

[Jen]

Hi guys,

Hope some of you can find time to watch this video. Its about seeing behind the veil of illusion and who is really in charge of this world.

Linda Moulton Howe being interviewed by Mysterious Outpost at the 2018 Ozark UFO conference discussing the existential threat of artificial intelligence.

Published on May 30, 2018
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9lclpajgN8

[Jim Sutherland]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bbcKO92OGNI#fauxfullscreen

“ The Ocean Refuses no river.....”

[Jen]

Probably many people do not like to discuss this (my favourite topic;) but some might find this article interesting...

https://www.collective-evolution.com/2018/02/07/what-christianity-islam-buddhism-say-about-alien-life-extraterrestrial-contact/

"UFOs (doesn’t always mean extraterrestrials), extraterrestrials, and life on other planets have been a hot topic for decades. These are the topics that receive some of the highest search engine results every single year on the internet, which is no surprise, as we’re naturally inclined to ponder about the unknown, or, as more people are starting to find out, the known.

At the end of 2017, the United States government officially admitted to the existence of UFOs with the release of previously classified footage of two navy pilots scrambling to intercept one (a UFO), with more footage on the way.  Luis Elizondo, a former high ranking military intelligence officer who was in-charge of the Pentagon’s recently disclosed UFO program, made an appearance on mainstream national news to discuss the topic."

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Jen

Looked over the youtube clip and webpage info you recently posted.

If true then the AI and UFO info is indeed sobering. Like I’ve said before I believe that what’s happening with the AI is part of an evolutionary process - where this will leave humans who knows?

Let’s hope that future sentient machines are wise, compassionate and helpful.

Like you I continue to be interested in the UFO stuff because (putting mysticism and consciousness debating aside), it seems the history around their presence on earth is only now starting to be opened up as you illustrate, and getting to the truth of things is ongoing. What still intrigues me the most, is how the Germans were involved prior to and during WW2, particularly in regard to their secret weapons program.
If you start looking at it quite a few arrows seem to point at Antarctica.

Best regards

[Jen]

Hi Tim,

I have been fascinated with this topic for many years now. First started when I read about Maria Orsic and the Vril Society. Now we hear about the Secret Space Program. So much hidden in plain sight.

Article 21January 2017:

https://www.gaia.com/article/maria-orsic-vril-ufos-nazi-germany-secrets

[Jim Sutherland]

To Jen,......Check this out.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raëlism

Run a search on his Books. There are some interesting free pdfs. They have been rumored to have been closing humans for years now!

Buy Ballard of the “ I AM” As ended Masters Cult was anofher UFO Religeon. I have a large collection of the original I AM Magazines Ballard wrote.

[Jim Sutherland]

https://www.rael.org/request.php?1

[Jen]

Hi Jim,

I have downloaded the pdf "Intelligent Design" from the link you provided.

A telepathic experience I had years ago, which didn't unnerve me at all, but comes to my mind often and I think it changed my whole point of view about Sant Mat and what life is all about. It was just like an easy conversation with very human like beings and came very naturally. I did ask what about the 'Master' and there was just silence in reply and when I asked questions about who are you etc I was told that I will find out one day when I meet my replicas - so I am very interested in cloning!

Much thanks to you and Tim, so happy that there are others interested in this subject.

Cheers
Jen

[Jen]

Hi Brian and others who may be reading my comments, just want to say that I have never taken mind altering drugs, don't use pharmaceutical drugs and don't drink alcohol. I don't have mental problems and really feel like I am putting myself out there and don't know why I am stepping out of my comfort zone. Maybe because I'm 72 now and really shouldn't care about what others think about me. Would never talk about this to the people I mix with. Told my sons about my experience and their response was 'meh', lol. I know some people will think I have lost the plot. Anyway, thanks Brian for your patience.

[Jim Sutherland]

To Jen,.....the Entity that appeared to me, during meditation, inside, was a couple of months before Charan appeared to me. The Entity first looked at me, but said nothing, even telepathically. As I was thinking about what it wanted from me, then it started flasing the bright blinding Silver White Light from both eyes, with On-Off pulsing in 1 second flashes. Then, it disappeared. Since then, I have obviously wondered where it came from, or, did I travel to where it was, instead of it traveling to me! And, of course, I wonder if it was an ET Alien, or a human Time Traveler from either the past, or the future, or,...could it have even been ME, as at where I was, I don’t really know if I was being observed, or if I was the Observer! I have asked others on UFO forums and OBE and NDE Forums if any one has ever encountered an Entity that flashed Light from its eyes like that, but so far, I have never met any that has. And you are correct about putting your self out there, because you are 72. I am 76 and agree. Why keep secrets that might be corraborated by others who might have had the same experiences, or might in the future, and will not be blnd sided, or caught off guard. That Book, Intellegent Design , is obviously another very controversal Book, but what if it is true? The Eloheim could be Avatars, or Living Masters.

[Spencer G Tepper]

"Human reason, in one sphere of its cognition, is called upon to consider questions, which it cannot decline, as they are presented by its own nature, but which it cannot answer, as they transcend every faculty of the mind."
The Critique of Pure Reason (preface to the first edition)
Immanuel Kant

[Spencer G Tepper]

"The myth is the foundation of life, the timeless schema, the lipid formula into which life flows when it reproduces its traits of of the unconscious"
Thomas Mann

[Spencer G Tepper]

"the pious formula into which life flows..." autospell

[Spencer G Tepper]

God's Whisper Creation's Thunder.....
Hi Brian

I'm working my way through your book and it did strike me in a completely different way today.

It is elegant in its prose. But it's logic, at least in the first few pages, seems hopelessly flawed.

You wrote
"Materiality can be observed and measured with the physical senses of sight. hearing, touch, small, and taste. This distinction is important because it separates material science from spiritual science."

This may be a case of reductum ad absurdum. The "material sciences" measure many things well beyond the range of the physical senses. From the distant cosmos to subatomic waves of pure energy, to brain waves and the firing of dendritic interlaces, science extends our vision and understanding. And in distinction to your claims, it often does so measuring indirectly. We learn about gravity from objects that fall or move in space, not a direct measurement of gravity waves.

When you wrote this you faulted, I believe falsely, the physical sciences for being unable to measure spiritual events because they have no apparent measurement in physical reality.

Today you fault spirituality for exactly the same reason. Despite your development, your reasoning remains based in the same argumentation. Earlier you constrained science to what could be measured at the time. Today you constrain spirituality because of those same constraints.

But in both cases the argument is premature. Your argument extends well beyond your evidence.

Even thoughts are correlated to biochemical events. What happens to us is connected to this world. Spirituality and all the classic experiences noted repeatedly in mystic literature and mythic symbols throughout recorded history must at some point find measurable correlates.

You quote Max Planck
"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and, therefore, part of the mystery we are trying to solve."

This echoes the same argument for analogous reasoning made by Thomas Aquinas, when he wrote that God cannot be understood by deduction, since God is not a reducable element that can be manipulated, but is in fact greater than this creation. And this echoes Kant's argument that reason cannot accurately extend too far beyond its premeses of common experience to explain metasphysic experience.

But as the tools of science are honed in studying mystic experience we certainly can and will gain greater insights into it.

All the modern research into meditation and its physiological effects are evidence, hard evidence of this.

I think the same flaw in reasoning from your book pervades your current thinking.

You once dismissed scientific inquiry as too limited to capture the full range of reality. Your argument then seemed to be 'If science can't test it today, science must be too constrained to witness true mystic experience' .

You now dismiss mystic experience for the same reason. You seem to now be saying 'If mystic experience can't be tested it must be false, non-existent.'

Brian, I hope you can see both of these are unscientific and fallacious claims, based as they area on a single false premise: Your arguments are too final for either science or statements of divinity, based as they are on flawed human limitations, either in meditation or science. But in both cases development invalidates that argument.

You site Joe Rosen's definition of science based in the study of what is reproducible and predictable (reliable).

All meditation practice and specifically the internal experiences that accrue must at some point meet these same criteria in order for the practitioner to conclude they are witnessing truth.

Your approach to criticizing science as a means of creating a space to defend meditation is based on a flaw that had to crumble at some point.

I wonder why you would choose to write this book without first having a thorough grounding of spiritual experience that met the conditions for reliability and repetitive reproducibility at your volition, so that you could test it, and get beyond imagination and subjective experience.

[Account Deleted]

How to open the third eye- https://www.scribd.com/document/382849195/How-to-Open-the-Third-Eye