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April 15, 2018


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Brian writes,.....”For three years, 2009 to 2012, I rode a maxi-scooter -- a Burgman 650 Executive. I loved it. (My wife, not so much, as noted in a blog post, “

Me: .....Brian, I rode 2 wheel motorcycles 40 years until I reached age 70, so I know what loving to ride mans! I had every thing from a Honda 50CC to a Harley. My last one was a 1500 CC V-Twin Kawai Vulcan that I bought nrw and rode for 10 years. But at 70 years old, my knees and ankles could no longer be trusted to hold up and balance a 900 lb. Bike, so I bought a brand new Can-Am Spyder RT Limited 3 wheel Trike Jan. 2012.i loved it. I put 55,400 miles on it in 5 years, and traded in a year ago for another brand new one same Model and have put 19,000 miles on it the first year! My wife even rides with me on ccassion, but its my daily escape from outer cares of the world for 2-3 hours each day ( as the weather permits ), as Meditation is daily escape from life’s cares and worries including thinking about any thing at all. If you really did love rding your Scooter, I recommend your test riding a 3 wheel Spyder Can-Am Trike from your closest Can Am Dealer. It has two wheels in front and one in back, all wide car tires. Its very safe and stable, and very High Tech. I plan to keep riding mine as long as I can still climb on to it, mine has a 3 cylinder 1330 CC engine with 115 H.P., and 6 speed semi auto Tranny with Reverse. No clutch to worry about, and it is loaded with all the bells and whistles. Try it. It is even funner than meditation! ( but it doesn’t burn karma. It only smokes Cars)

"Not because my problems had disappeared, but because I no longer was thinking about them"
That is what I have been saying since ages, doing risky, unconventional activities, hard work, living alone makes the being stronger than thinking mind & stillness/freezing of mind is experienced.
Baba Faqir Chand calls it crossing the Kal/Maya of world/ mind/thinking/time & abiding in unmixed awareness/consciousness.


Golden Rule :

"Not because my problems disappeared, but I no longer think about them"





Be here now might not be so good.
Maybe "be anywhere else, any other time but this one!" might lead to happiness.

Nothing wrong with escape.
That's what Meditation is. Going somewhere else.

Jim, please tell me about your experience with Shabd. I'd like to understand what you did and didn't get from your practice.

Spencer asks Jim,...”Jim, please tell me about your experience with Shabd. I'd like to understand what you did and didn't get from your practice.”

Me: Holy Moly! What do you think I have been posting here, including my Peak Outer Space experience here to Arjuna a couple of weeks ago, plus my meeting Charan inside sharing, plus linking my Blog posts dozens of times? Plus my Dera experinces last Oct, plus preaching to the Choir in between. I have shared many times about nner experiences.

What more could I possible share? If you ask me any specific questions, I will offer my
honest answers, but only excluding Politics. There are never any winners in the Swamp. No friends can ever be found thete either. If you think you ever find one of those Swamp creatures, and think you made a friend, don’t ever trust it. That goes for every country. None excluded.

To Spencer,...
Here is a fairly recent Post from my Blog that pretty well sums up what I believe about Sant Mat and how the Teachings applies to me. I came to this conclusion by 30 years of Meditation, reading, , and personal experimentation in my own Body Laboratory. I don’t know how to make it any clearer.
http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2014/11/soul-convicts-wanted-dead-or-alive.html p

Thank you Jim,

And I think this is a good buffet of experience, but I'd like to narrow this down to the more reliable, repeatable experience? The real boring lab stuff, the stuff a scientist has to work with every day?

What happens in meditation every day? Do you have time with Maharaj, or Jesus, each day with in meditation?
Are you following the practice learned in initiation? What is the result during your 2 1/2 hours? What is the reliability of your practice and result?

Do you hear the Shabd? Do you enter the Temple at the third eye, do you see Master?

How does your meditation start and what are the normal stages?

What is actually there for you to witness each day, under your direct control?


@ or join the armed forces and see what that feels like.

You come back a different person!!!!!

I recommend it all the keyboard warriors at work!!!!

Spence ask to see Jim’s Innerware,....”............

Me: I presume you will post your compared notes,,,,,,

Actually, after reading what I share, most who are NOT , nor have had no experiences , will quit meditating, thinking it a waste of time. Other than my Space Cadet Launch , and having Charan come see me inside and speak to me,...nothing earth shattering. So Why, oh Why do I still do it?

I’ll try to answer as you ask the questions.

Soence: Thank you Jim,

And I think this is a good buffet of experience, but I'd like to narrow this down to the more reliable, repeatable experience? The real boring lab stuff, the stuff a scientist has to work with every day?

Spence :What happens in meditation every day? Do you have time with Maharaj, or Jesus, each day with in meditation?

Me: I DO have time with both of them, daily, but not visual. Taking Ishwar Puri’s scenero, as he explains having Sawan with him all of the time, by IMAGINATION, I have Charan with me as I “ imagine” his many, many Forms, as I remember seeing in photos and videos over the years. As for Jesus, not at all, as I can’t remember ever seeing his Form, other than imaginary photos or paintings. I used to imagine him on the Cross, but no longer do. But I am always open to expectation of Charan showing up with Jesus, and verifying to me that it is Jesus. I do not meditate when I am traveling, as my mind is totally scattered, outsde, all over. I only catch 30-40 minutes sitting up in bed some times, but rarely get to the Third Eye. But I don’t its wasted time, as I burn a little Karma.

Spence: Are you following the practice learned in initiation? What is the result during your 2 1/2 hours? What is the reliability of your practice and result?

Me: yes, pretty much, but I no longer sit the full 2-1/2 hours in a single sitting. I did, tho, for the first 7 years after Initiation, in order to “ break through”, i.e. plow the inner roads and clear the swamps to the Star Gate. During my last 30 years, I worked about Ten years ir so, in Industry, manual labor, and quit meditating altogether. I was just to tired and wasted. When I was traveling as a Sales Engineer on the road alone, I usually sit in medtation 60-90 minutes. Since I retired 7 yeas ago, I split up my meditation times in to two sitting. 6 AM , 1-1/2 to 2 hours, than, again, usually about 3 PM for another 60-90 minutes, some times 2 hours. I sit on a sofa, legs crossed, cushions under each knee, to give me the least pain possible, as both knees are bad. I use a small pillow in the back of my head against the wall, to support my head , as the sofa is not a high back. I lean back slightly, so my head does not fall forward when I withdraw from lower body. I can feel my lower body numbing as I withdraw. Now here is an important Key. The 2-1/2 hours sitting initially is important, because it takes at least 2 hours to break thru to the flickers of Light and Lightning bolts. But once you break thru, it takes less and less time. What used to take me an hour now only takes me 15-20 min. to get to the same place.

Spence: Do you hear the Shabd? Do you enter the Temple at the third eye, do you see Master?

Me: I believe I hear the Shabd 24/7. But that is the ringing, cadence of the bell, non stop, no breaks in between. The more I meditate, the louder the volume. I hear it both ears, like Surround Sound, but during the day, unfocused in any thing, the sound is most notable in the left ear, but as soon as I focus on it, it moves to the right then the middle. I do NOT SEE the Master. Also, I long ago quit changing positions from Simran to Bhajun, to hear the Sound, because I hear the Sound always. If I put my thumb to cover right ear lightly, I hear what Sawan said is “ a Conch”, which is like a big Sea Shell. It also sounds like a Jet engine during flying. In the afternoon, I some times use ear plugs, if there is noise outside, and when I do that, the ringing Shabd is always there, in the background, but there are also body sounds, like the head beating like a drum, gurgling from blood flowing thru the veins, and various other body noises. Sawan said the Conch and Bell were to focus on. But the Conch only is present with the thumbs are in the ears, strongest on tne right side, because Shabd is Positive Polarity and flows from right to left like an electrical circuit, Positive to Negative, with the Mother Earth being the Negative Polarity always open ready to accept the Positive Shabd. That’s how life on earth occurrs. Our bodie’s left side is the Negative side, so Shabd enters right, and exits left.

Spence: How does your meditation start and what are the normal stages?

Me: I sit in position, with knees propped slightly with cushions, and leaning back just enough to keep my head from falling forward when I withdraw to the Third Eye. Once in position, I do NOT intend to move, or scratch an itch, or any thing. As the Current moves up from the toes to the nose, if I move, it drops back down, and I long ago learned how to quit playing YoYo with my Current. I start with The lord’s Prayer, ask forgiveness from all sins, past, present and future, then thank The Lord for all His Grace, than imagine my body sitting in meditation podition at the Third Eye and start my 5 Name Simran immeditely looking first, at the dark, or black, while imaging Charan’s face. I also imagine the Glittering Diamond, which usually appears at the Third Eye after doing Simran for the first 15-20 minutes. Before that, specks, dots, of light flicker off and on, until a few lightneng bolts flash, then, the Glittering Swirling Diamond appears, bobbing up and down, and left to right, challenging me to play TAG and catch it if I can! But I long ago learned that the only way to make it stay steady, was to keep looking straight ahead, not paying any attention ( very hard it ignore it, tho, but if you don’t, it disappears and you loose it.) also, it has a small black hole in the center of it, and is the spot to focus on once it steadies. Supposedly, the Radiant Form of the Master appears on the other side, once we enter and pass thru. But when ever any faces, full bodies, people, places or things appeared to me, was before the glittering Swirling Diamond appeared, so according to Ishwar, that’s when focus dropped back down from the Third Eye after rising, or got caught there at the Throat Chakra on tne way up during Simran. These times are when we appear to be flying, Astral projecting, exploring, and communicating with others Astral bodies, etc. the Throat Chakra is where Lucid dreaming also occurs, but its hard to know just which Astral level we are in, because there are many Levels, Sub- Astral to High Astral. The lower has foggy grey black and white colors, which clear up and brighten to Silver White the higher we go. I have experienced full color, in areas I don’t know how to to label. But for certsin, ALL visuals, occurr in the Astral Planes, because they all disappear in tne Casual planes. Now here is where it gets uncertain for me. Once I have traveled thru the Visuals, and entered the black center of the Swirling Glittering Diamond, I enter the Void! No lights, no Sound, no visuals, but I KNOW its still me, as I am totally aware of existing, but I no longer care if I exist, nor care where I am, nor care to go any where else!! Now this Void to me, seems to be eifher the Samadhi the Hindus describe, or the Nirvana the Buddhists describe. In Sant Mat, it is only the Void, and doesn’t seem to be Sach Khand, because in Sach Khand, Charan stated that souls would recognise other souls there. As I said, nothing there but my Awareness. Now before I leave this, a couple of important things. Long ago, I purchased ALL of the Parent group, Soami Bagh’s Books from India, about 40-50 as I remember, and read them all. I also have them all on my iPad Cloud. I still read them. But they do not use the 5 Name RSSB Mantra, that Swamiji gave, but use RADHASOAMI their second Guru gave, and that is the only Simran they use. With out getting in to discussion about it, long ago, I tried using their Mantra alone, for about 3 months, and didn’t seem to get the same redults. I also tried the Christian Mantra, “ O Lord Jesus Christ Have Mercy On Me, A Sinner” Mantra, and never seemed to get as good a result as usung the 5 Names. But reading all if the negstive stuff about the 5 Names in the various forums, I again tried the single RADHASOAMI again, so, about 20 years ago, I finally put it all to rest, and started using, and continue to date, adding RADHASOAMI to my 5 Name Mantra, which became my 6 Name Mantra, according to Agra Group, RSSB Initiates are “ Satnamis”, whereas Agra Initiates are Satsangis. Also, in meditation, when the Swirling Diamond Star Gate appears at my Third Eye, I quit doing Simran, and focus on the Sound Current only. Soon after, it Lignts Out, Sound quits, and I enter the Void, wnich can’t even be called the Twilight Zone of the lower Sub Astral Plane.

Spence: What is actually there for you to witness each day, under your direct control?

Me: under my direct control, I can not guarentee I will see the same each meditation time, nor how long it will take to witness them, but when they do appear, they are always the same Specks and dots of Light, Blots, Swirling Diamond, bright Silver White, and many times, first a spherical Moon, and once in awhile, the Moon will be encased inside a golden yellow Sun, larger than the moon. These are the only visuals in my limited control be following the procedure outlined above. BUT, I am ALWAYS expecting new surprises never viewed before, and that included every Single Astral image different, during each Astral projection. About a month before Charan appeared , another face, or head only, appeared, that kind of looked like an Alien Grey, but the face was more normal human shaped. But it had no hair or head covering. It starred at me, and was real close to my face, about a foot away. Then, it started flashing bright, blinding Silver Wite Lignt out of its eyes in to mine, but the Light was Pulsing, off, on, off, on, in microsecond intervals. The Light was so bright and penetrating, that it shot me right out of Samadi with a Thud back to my body. That was the end of that meditation session . I since have been curious where that Entity came from, what it wanted of me, as there was no ofher communication other than the pulsing light. I hope it visits me again, if it is not evil. I was so excited that it never even crossed my mind to test it with the Mantra! That testing has never worked for me, because the entities usually apper when I am in Simran using the Mantra. But when the Alien Head appeared to me out of no where, unexpectedly, I was in the Void. I also have entered a seeming brown tunnel, many times, and can’t even describe the immages I saw inside, but I assume it was the Hollow of my spine when I was traveling the Ida to the Pingala up thru the Shushamna back and forth before stabilizing at the Third Eye.

Hope that answers your questions. Now its your trun.


Wow, now I know why we are told not to talk about inner experiences.

Spencer and Jim, both of you have been preachers in the past and you have such a lot in common. What attracted you both to this 'Churchless' website, was it because you wanted to convert the lost souls back to Sant Mat?

Anyway, not criticising you both, I enjoy your comments.

Spencer, on the other thread you are asking about our meditation practice and inner experiences. This is funny, its like a test or exam to see how much we have evolved and then teacher will give us marks on how much we have progressed.

Sorry, I'm a failure when it comes to meditation and am sticking to "thou must not talk about inner experiences" excuse lol

To Jen and other silent meditators, ........who would you ever get your answers from, if we were all silent obedient Zombies sealed in Duct Tape? You gotta have a lot of money, or infuence to get and personal interveiws from Gurinder, and even if you are one that does, can he give you the real answers you need?

As for Ishwar Puri,Seekers who have never been initited by any Master, listen to a couple of hundred of his 60-90 minute Youtube talks, then go to one f his meetings where he will give a personal interview. When their turn comes up, they get 2-3 minutes to ask their most important question. Now how could any real sincere Seeker interested in being initiated even know what question to ask? ( ofher than, can I be Initiated? )

The reason so many Satsangis quit the Path and stop meditation is, because the silent Zombie Majority ..................( fill in the blanks. )

As for my wanting or expecting to convert any one any where to do any thing, I don’t care what they do. But when asked questions, why try to spin the answers if you either have, or don’t have any thing going.

But its obvious, Brian Hines has not had enough inner experiences to keep him from going back to smoking Dope, drinking Jack Danials and Whisky and Beer. Now I sure would like to hear about any one still getting any Spiritual experiences by drinking spirits rather than summing Spirits by Meditation.

Now, you could go to a Rajinder meeting, and fight your way thru hundreds in the body press, and get a little touch on the head by Rajinder, if you were lucky. But what about answers to your questions.

As Spence said, there has to be enough experinces to keep a Seeker meditating, or why even bother continueng? I shared what keeps me going. My BIG Breakthru could happen the next time I sit in meditation.

Maybe yours, as well. “ Take these chains off my heart and set me free.....”

Jen asks,...”Spencer and Jim, both of you have been preachers in the past and you have such a lot in common. What attracted you both to this 'Churchless' website, was it because you wanted to convert the lost souls back to Sant Mat?”

Me: The same reason that you and all the others are attracted here. We all have various degrees of interest about Sant Mat, but mostly regarding RSSB lineage. Lane’s RSS site has always been taken over by Kirpali Ruhani lineage up to 7 years ago, until it was taken over by Advaita quotes, and has slid further away from Sant Mat interests.

Here, in spite of Exers having no interest who no longer practice, read here to get any newest and latest gossip regarding RSSB, Gurinder, Gurus in general, and to hear new Revelations from Neubies, or waiting for some one like David Lane to come out of hiding and RELEASE THE KRACKEN and confess wny he has returned to RSSB as a changed man!

Manjit is waiting with baited breath to hear Lane’s new found Gurinderism after seeing him ride by on his Popemobile last April, after being converted to his Theology of Advaita Oneness, as is Osho Robbins who has gone AWOL.

This Church is like the Bardo in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, we never know who will show up to stir the Pot. Brian smokes it, while some of us stir it. HaHa


Jim, I do appreciate your sharing and as you know I enjoy reading about and listening to people who have had multidimensional experiences. I find that really cool and interesting.

Not interested at all in Gurinder or Rajinder etc. Have watched in the past lots of Ishwar Puri talks and then went off him. Was surprised when he started initiating people.

I know you are not wanting to convert anyone so keep on chatting away, I enjoy your comments. Most of us here on the Churchless site are rebels and I hope that they keep on sharing.

Hi Jim:

Very thorough! Thank you. Your experience really defines your philosophy. It makes perfect sense to me, and I understand that philosophy better. Thank you.

I like your experimental / faithful / experimental approach! Years of effort and service.

That you have Shabd with you during the day is a wonderful thing. I think you are better at meditation than I am. My "results" are largely due to my failure, and Maharaji always lending a hand.

Thank you for helping me understand your philosophy and how you got to where you are. It's like an accomplished mountain climber explaining the pathway up. The inner experience really does inform belief.

RE: "Your turn", I see a lot of similarities. Maharaji intervenes directly and often, smiling all the while, brighter than the sun, both inside and outside, but while it is in some ways a blessing, in another way it reflects my significant shortfalls in managing the issues of my life. I have discovered something, and that is that work and effort are only part of it. Folks who don't function well in the world function very well in Sant Mat, in part because they've figured it out: "I failed...Now what, Master?"

My mind is actually easily distracted, but in that moment within, the mind evaporates, flooded with light and sound, and I don't have to deal with it anymore. My relationship to my mind is fairly remote. You might say we're divorced! But it's like a divorce among two who also share a business partnership. I have to deal with it every day. So there is the shining soul, and there is the broken apple cart. What a strange relationship! But Master is the farmer who lifts the handles of the cart in His strong hands, and we move forward together.

The darkness you mentioned is part of the Bank Nal, the "tunnel"...when you get pulled through that arcing curve, at frightening speed, which spans this and several more heavens, it is awesome, frightening and wonderful. Then we are greeted by souls that look like pearls of light. It's like family.

Hi Jen:

No test at all. I'm trying to understand how the internal experience and the philosophy mirror one another. I see you are a little reactive about being judged. Perhaps that was your experience in the Sangat. I'm sorry for that.

The injunction against sharing inner experience has to do with ego. But if you are sharing something you don't believe in with others who also don't believe, I don't think there is much to worry about. It could be Master's will, or just another failure we will need to bring before Him. We are destined to make stupid mistakes all the way through. It's our Karma, the impressions of the past. We just have to go through it. But what is a mistake, and what is a right action? Impossible to know in the moment, through the filter of this human mind. We just do the very best we can, and accept that our stupidity and the results of it will plaque us for all our days in this body. In meditation, we see it all, but who cares? Free of mind, we are only looking to the light, not back.

A scientist would conduct a similar survey, openly, or discreetly, if there was a serious interest in looking at the path clinically, scientifically. There would be no conclusions, just gathering findings and sharing those for everyone to make up their own mind: the "peer review group". That is quite different than what Church of the Churchless has been, but could easily be part of what Church of the Churchless could become...a more scientific and dispassionate record of personal, anecdotal disclosure, comparing and identifying themes, without accusation or judgement, but respectful efforts to interpret and understand. The most basic requirements for scientific inquiry are two: 1. "I don't know", and 2. "I don't understand that".

Ego has a way of creeping in the moment we say "I' so it's a problem for all of us most of our waking life.

No one has to believe any of it.

But it would help me understand.

Spence, thanks for your comments and sharing. Could you say a little more about seeing Charan’s smiling face inside? Like, just where does he appear? To your right, left, above or below the center? Also, colors? Grey, black and white defines, i.e. beard, Turban, eye color? Also, does he speak, or just stare at you? How long does he stzy each time? Does he ride shot gun with you in your car as Sawan does with Ishwar? I saw him many times, but he was far away, and looked like he was looking thru me, not at me. And he was never smiling. But when he finally showed up for real, ( 26 years after Initiation!! ) , and spoke, called me “ Brother”, then listened to my arguments, than calmly responded, touched my shoulder, than vaporized before I could ask him the barrage of questions we ask each other here,...which in the big picture, doesn’t change any of our karmas and destimies one way or the other. We either believe, by fath without knowing, or we know, and no longer require faith.
I agree to your comment regarding what this Church of the Churchless forum COULD become!
But hasn’t. If only old time Initiates of all Masters would step out of thier closets, and share honestly, answers to the same questions you asked me, and honestly shared both failures, successes, with worrying or being concerned that their Masters “Will release the Kracken” if they come out of hiding and let it all hang out, with out being judgemental to each other, after some one gives their honest heart felt opinions and experiences. Not like the comments Gurinder’s desciples gave me. The best one was,...”You are the most Vitriolic poster I have ever read on the Internet!” Now either that Poster doen’t read very much on the Internet, or,...I should be awarded some sort of Prize for looking that bad! Jeeese, I never even used a cuss or F word, like many here use. If all the closet Initiates came out of hiding and answered your questions, for Science of the Soul Research, with out being judgemental, Brian Hines would have enough good worth while material to write and publish another Book to add to his collection.

But fasting from Meditation is the same as fasting from food and water. Fasting from Meditation extinguishes your inner Flame and Light and you die spiritually, returning completely to the world that most of us live in. The Bible calls it as the dog returning to its own vomit.

Fasting from food and water for more than a couple of weeks will extinguish and je t us completely, from our physicsl bodies.

Hi Jim
Maharaji says "Hi".
While mostly He smiles occasionally I get an eye roll. "It doesn't matter, who will believe you besides Me?"
In an intimate relationship it's difficult to get into details.
As long as I pay attention He is here. When I'm depressed He strokes my hair and doesn't say anything.

@ Jim - hope you are well. Want to get something of my chest as I am an initiate of Gurinders but feel no love for him.

All I want to know is he God?

Hi Jim!
Good questions:

You ask
" Could you say a little more about seeing Charan’s smiling face inside? Like, just where does he appear? To your right, left, above or below the center?"

Eye level.

" Also, colors? Grey, black and white defines, i.e. beard, Turban, eye color?"

Full color. Glowing, with a magazine cover complexion. His appearance within is in his late fourties/early fifties. Outside, it's like 80's or nineties, much, much older, much whiter beard. He's much, much older in appearance outside, but much the same healthy glow and gentle smile.

" Also, does he speak, or just stare at you? "

He answers any questions I have. Occasionally I get an eyeroll. Usually I'm just in adoration.
I don't have any questions then.

"How long does he stzy each time?"
As long as I stay focused. As long as I wish.

Does he ride shot gun with you in your car as Sawan does with Ishwar?

He lay in bed with me at night, and if I'm depressed he strokes my hair.
He is usually sitting up, actually.

He says "Hi".

@Ajuna,....I can not answer that for you. Only you, yourself will be able to know As for love, ......it starts with a big swelling around the heart, and ends with a big pain in the butt. ! ( for me)

For you, well, you first must experince a big swelling around the heart. If you don’t, than you can’t loose any thing you never had. And if you don’t spend your hours in Mediation , how can you possibly ever develop love for even the Shabd, let alone the radiant form of some one you have had no connention with?

But you are really asking that question to the wrong person. You should ask other Gurinder Initiates to advise you, right here! Plead with them to come out of hiding.

There must be literally thousands of Gurinder Initiates in your same shoes. They have been initiated, but have never developed any love, because of lack of both physical and inner contact.

Than again, there has to be many that love him, and are blind to all the comments of negativity made about him here and else where.

In my opinion, you first must absorb the Sant Mat Philosophy, and be drawn to it, and compelled to be released from The Wheel of 84.

Then, only you will know when you will meet the Master who you will have the opportunity to develope a Love relationship with. But that happens when you first see Gurinder as your friend, then your Elder Brother, then as your Master, but never as your Task Master,

Let not your heart contnue to be troubled. The Lord hears your cry. He will send some one to sort out your problem, sooner or later.


@ Jim - I see him as a punisher!

@Arjuna,......you should be a lucky son, than, according to the Bible.

God punishes the sons He loves!

Hebrews 12:5-7
and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Proverbs 3:11-12
My son, do not reject the discipline of the LORD Or loathe His reproof, For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.

Deuteronomy 4:36
Verse Concepts
"Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.

Deuteronomy 8:5
Verse Concepts
"Thus you are to know in your heart that the LORD your God was disciplining you just as a man disciplines his son.

2 Samuel 7:14
Verse Concepts
"I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,

Job 5:17
Verse Concepts
"Behold, how happy is the man whom God reproves, So do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.

Job 33:19
Verse Concepts
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, And with unceasing complaint in his bones;

Job 36:10
Verse Concepts
"He opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they return from evil.

Psalm 32:3-4
When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah.

Psalm 94:12-13
Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O LORD, And whom You teach out of Your law; That You may grant him relief from the days of adversity, Until a pit is dug for the wicked.

Psalm 118:18
Verse Concepts
The LORD has disciplined me severely, But He has not given me over to death.

@ Jim - I meant what I said from the heart. Not sure what carries me - it ain’t sure as hell me with all my training.

I have seen men better trained and with everything fall in life and stay down.

I get up and ask is that all you got 😀 perhaps not wise

@Spence,.......Tell him “ Hi” back for me! I would swap inner experinces with you in a heart beat, if it were possible. But we just can’t download to each other, regardless of what Advaitists preach. We gotta ring our own Bells. The only other Charan Initiate I have ever head that said they had that clear a Charan relationship was a man who has been posting on RSS and still does. He said he and Charan even sat together smoking cigars. Looking back, time lined, I think he would now have been initiated about 50 years ago. But he is totally different, personality wise. He used to be a fowl mouthed poster, who hated Christians, me especially! Then, over the years I have followed his posts, ( about 25 ), he has changed back and forth, even hating all the Gurus, including Charan, to presently preaching his own private Oneness philosophy. But he cleaned up his language and quit reacting violently when challenged by others. He even started initiating others years ago! Also, the only other Charan Initiate I had personal email contact with, for years, that came any where close to your relationship with Charan, was the late Michael Martin. He actually was the most loyal Charan Initiate I have ever known. He was David Lane’s worst Critic. He actually would give Lane personal messages from Charan that he said he received. Lane acted like he didn’t believe him, but I think he believed him more than he admitted. Michael once told Lane if he didn’t quit bad mouthing the Gurus, he might reincarnate as a gorilla next life. Michael once told me that he saw Jesus, inside, and he was about 20 feet tall, and had blue eyes! He told me lots of personal stuff I won’t share, but after he died, ( about 6-7 years ago), I counseled his Widow , who is also a Charan Initiate. She told me a lot of personal stuff about Michael, that I also won’t share, but she said Michael had been given notice inside, that he was being taken Home, about 6 weeks prior to when it happened! She didn’t believe him, at the time of course. I saw him once, inside, as I posted here, but I think it was only his Astral shell, and he is now with Charan Singh. But he will be on the Welcoming Committee, with Charan when I cross over, I expect.

Hi Jim

I really Really love the Bible quotes you gave. This message is very personal for me. Raising the pot by supporting within while beating from the outside. Or that we are ovens of clay in which gold is refined by burning all impurities.

Myron Phelps Notes on Sant-mat: During the creation when the totality of consciousness split to create fractals, many fractals never wanted to remain in the Shabd/Creative power. The carnal world of mind & matter was created to chastise such souls.

Holy sh*t, Spencer and Jim, isn't there another bible thumping site you could join up to. This is crazy. Thought this was for people who are awakening and reject religious nonsense and are questioning the whole spiritual path scene. You guys sound so stuck in your programming, so fixed in your opinions, especially when it comes to the whole church and Jesus stuff.

Brian posted a link to one of his previous called "Dissolve and try something different". In the past usually the soft approach worked for me when someone was being annoying, but man you guys are so up yourselves, such annoying people because of your preaching!!!

Okay that venting felt good. Not doing the soft approach makes me feel better! Thanks Brian for your blog and your patience.

Now there will be a huge barrage of preaching from the two of you blah de blah de blah...

Hi Jen
Never meant to offend.

Aw Spencer,
Now you are being sweet and I feel awful (venting is not that great after all)!

Hi Jen,

Don't tell me you want to hear only the card-carrying
Church-of-the-Churchless choir here.. The Fake News
media will decry the lack of diversity, the coverage
blackout, how a deep-state un-churched cabal jerks
the levers of power to suppress religious freedom.

Besides, how would you test your mettle save in the thrum
of bible thumpers... how would you bring the light of Holy
Science to the credulous religious masses yearning to be
free? Would you abandon these lost souls to roast in their
eternal fantasies?

And yes, this mission, should you choose to accept it, will
allow you to vent a little. Not too excess. Just enough to
soothe an un-churched psyche. To bathe for a moment in
scientific righteousness . And to rest in assurance that the
erring masses will see the logic and come to the light.

Amen and bless us all.

@ Jen! I agree with you! Totally why apologise if I may ask. State your feeling - every other sucker including me does.

Your sincerely


Hi Dungeness and Arjuna,

Thanks guys.

Thinking to myself - why is everything so fake? - well I don't have the answer but the easy way is to ask the big G (google god)... yes, I know there is so much misinformation but hey, this is what this article is about... Fakery - just skim through, its a long article!


Brian says: "So no matter what mood I was in before I hopped on the scooter, as soon as I took off I felt better. Not because my problems had disappeared, but because I no longer was thinking about them."

Also... "The human mind is marvelously variegated. People's psyches differ in countless ways. So there's no "one size fits all" approach to finding happiness and contentment."

And... "So, each to his or her own. We all have our own ways of finding meaning and satisfaction in life."

So, how to find happiness, contentment, meaning and satisfaction in life?

For me, facing the shadow self is my priority at the moment.

Would love to know what you think about this Brian?

Short video by Jordan Peterson "How to integrate your shadow" (8:12)


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