Small causes can have big effects

Somebody emailed me some questions and observations about karma, and the notion of "equal and opposite reactions." Here's what they said, followed by my reply.

Hi Brian,

Thank you for your reply and further insights. A follow up question then. Keeping reincarnation issue aside and following the thread of vegetarianism and law of karma, with your new understanding, insights do you still believe that that aspect of law of karma is a valid postulate.

 

Meaning on a physical, mental, and thought level do you still believe what we sow that we reap, our actions good or bad invite an equal and opposite reaction?

 

This is the aspect I struggle to grapple with. On a physical level we see very often that a bad behavior or an action not necessarily punished and people intentionally committing bad or evil acts roam around freely on the same token people committing good acts not necessarily are saved from hardships. If there is no reincarnation where balances and retributions can happen then this argument that action leads to an equal and opposite reaction also seems difficult to hold the firm ground?

 

And if this is on a physical level then for mental or at a thought level we have no way to trace what happens to a thought once it is generated and subsided so it seems hard for me to hold that that subtle level of karma also is in action. I got more confused when I read a statement somewhere that Universe is vast and varied so it is apt to presuppose that at some point some where retribution happens. Of course today with science we can testament that Universe is vast and varied but we have no way to know that retribution or say balancing act of karma happens.

 

Your insights and guidance would be very much appreciated.

Thank you again for your time and help.

My reply:

The older I get, the more I’m attracted to science as the best explanation for how the world works. We know that causes and effects govern the world, aside from (possibly) at the quantum level. But those causes and effects are hugely complicated, and usually they don’t operate in a linear fashion. Meaning, a small cause can have a big effect, and a big cause can have a small effect.

So even though events are caused — which is the simplest way to describe karma — this doesn’t mean that happenings occur in a predictable or “fair” fashion. As you observed, good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good people.

 

I don’t believe there is any grand balancing force in the universe other than the laws of nature. And those laws don’t really care about human concerns.

 

This may sound harsh, especially from the viewpoint of religion, but to me it is the truth about reality. Thus we shouldn’t expect that the world is going to appear just or fair. Sure, we should do our best to to do the right thing. However, to expect that everything will work out fine in our lives if we do this is to deny the reality of complex causes having unpredictable effects. 

 

The idea of an “equal and opposite reaction” assumes a linear, predictable way that things work. We all know in our everyday lives how small things mushroom into larger things. For example, maybe we leave too late for a job interview, then we can’t find a place to park, then we find that we’ve got the wrong address, and it turns out that the interview was cancelled, preventing us from making a career change. 

 

I can think of many small events in my life that led to big changes. Some of these were positive changes, some were negative changes. None were “equal and opposite.” To give another example, in college I overheard a conversation between two people, one of whom had just gotten a B.A. in Psychology, as I was about to get. His friend advised him to get a Master’s Degree in Social Work, because this could be obtained more quickly and easily than a Ph.D. in Psychology.

 

So I went to the library and found that Portland, Oregon had a School of Social Work. I applied, was admitted, graduated, and ended up working in Oregon after I graduated, where I still live about 47 years later. Thus an overheard conversation changed the course of my life.

 

I no longer think this was destiny, fate, or karma. It was just an example of how small events can have big effects.

 

   — Brian

This is the essence of Chaos Theory, of course.

Deterministic systems can be highly unpredictable, owing to our inability to specify both the initial conditions of a complex system and how small changes can multiply into big effects. Theoretically, a butterfly flapping its wings in China can lead to a tornado in Kansas.

 

Comments

[Spencer Tepper]

Brian, your explanation is elegantly grounded.

Karma theory is an explanation, but there is no morality in it. At the 10,000 foot level it's just a way to explain that whatever you do is the result of biochemistry, physics, education, culture, etc...the current forces shaped for perhaps thousands of years that have made you you.

And that action, however small, which you take effects a whole chain of events for a period of time that is beyond a single lifespan. When Christ said "Every jot of law must be fulfilled", He may have been explaining what is obvious to anyone trained in science.

The notion of cause and effect also proves nothing happens by chance. Chaos theory explains that we see large events apparently happening at random, but it is not so. They are simply the tipping point of a long accumulation of forces.

If there is a system of justice it is our subconscious, that sees and knows when we have harmed others. And from that point on we must carry the weight of that division with our own sentiments. We are no longer whole, and it affects everything we do.

Treating others as we wish to be treated, forgiving everyone, these are simply strategies to erase that division within ourselves, that most of us carry.

Spirituality, then, is simply that reintegration with ourselves, using the object of our focus a point of perfect love, of something or someone we hold sacred. Each of us has that. Some have a very long journey past cynicism and self hate to discover it, to admit that perfection is always within.

It is just you learning how to love you at a level that is generally invisible, the subconscious mind.

Doing so has astounding effects.

[vinny]

Law of karma example. I have been speaking against medical malpractice in third world.
The doctors who used to ridicule me , today when they themselves are becoming victim of malpractice , they are running to consumer courts crying there for compensation.
Every action in thought , word & deed must be repaid. No-one is above law of karma.

[777]

But those causes and effects are hugely complicated
Yes on this Level

Add exponential 7 hugely(s) for the higher astral level

Next multiply immensely for the Causal 3/7 level

So What about the 7th Level

Everything became hyper simple there

Justification : Every decision was made by OURSELF , ( @one or more UP stage )

777

[Jen]

"Deterministic systems can be highly unpredictable, owing to our inability to specify both the initial conditions of a complex system and how small changes can multiply into big effects."

I know this is about karma but talk about complex systems! This reminded me of Artificial Intelligence. How my computer is suddenly doing things that I haven't asked for. For example when I switch on in the morning it pops up with a note about the mail in my inbox because the first thing I usually do is go into my mail inbox. It also talks to my iPad which is in another room and a message pops up "from iPad" and it produces a calendar. I'm thinking it might soon be advising me on all sorts of issues. Also the 'recommended for you' on Youtube is fascinating. It knows me so well already.

This is just the beginning of how it is reading my patterns of behaviour. I find it kinda cool and amusing but how far is it going to go. This is an interesting article about algorithms.

Does my algorithm have a mental health problem?

https://aeon.co/ideas/made-in-our-own-image-why-algorithms-have-mental-health-problems

"As we’ve learned more about our own brains, we’ve enlisted that knowledge to create algorithmic versions of ourselves. These algorithms control the speeds of driverless cars, identify targets for autonomous military drones, compute our susceptibility to commercial and political advertising, find our soulmates in online dating services, and evaluate our insurance and credit risks. Algorithms are becoming the near-sentient backdrop of our lives."

[Tim Rimmer]

Interesting comment and article Jen, I guess as algorithms grow up they will get it more together?
What I’ve noticed is that while some are, many folk today remain uninterested, unconcerned or unaware of how rapidly AI systems are developing. I remember someone stating that humans have a ‘symbolic consciousness’ and various forms of creativity is thus represented by art, design etc. In my view this (putting aside all the other world operating AI system stuff), will manifest as the fully animatronic human-like cyborg with possible access to what Elon Musk calls ‘digital super-intelligence’. What people still fail to realise is that this (in my view) is an evolutionary process.

What’s also interesting are all the ramifications this development has in regard to religious belief, ethics etc. Several years ago at one of the last ‘religious’ meetings I attended, I raised the issue of machine consciousness and how robots were being given emotional response programmes etc. Most others who attended, scoffed at my suggestion that such machines could at sometime become self-aware, even be interested in things like meditation. ‘Impossible!’ was one response as they will never have a ‘soul’. While the respondent’s statement may well be true, my gut-feeling was that this answer was purely belief-based. Granting ‘soul’ status to some future cyborg would mean ‘it’ would have potentially equal rights to humans etc and also could well be entitled to join some of the select few returning godward, if it was inclined to seek ‘truth’. Could be problematic for religious teachings. Also continues to make me wonder about the soul/consciousness relationship.

How’s this for a suggestion - a fully sentient cyborg with instantaneous access to an all powerful evolving digital super intelligence, has parallels with a so-called realised being or guru. So maybe this ‘dude’ sets itself up. Probably wouldn’t take long for a bunch of folk to get along for instruction. For the devotional lot it could operate as a ‘Sadbot’, for the pesky, intellectual, truth-seeking type it could send them off to its mate the ‘Gyanborg’.

[Jen]

Hi Tim,

Yes, not many people aware of or even interested in AI, and like you say, it does seem to be an evolutionary process and is slowly but surely creeping up on us.

Just looked up the latest on Elon Musk: - he plans to beat artificial intelligence by merging with it.

"Neuralink is an American neurotechnology company founded by Elon Musk and eight others, reported to be developing implantable brain–computer interfaces."

[Appreciative Reader]

Nice article, Jen. Thanks for sharing.

Some of it seemed to be simply journalistic flourish, the use of anthropomorphic terms to sensationalize the commonplace (I mean how they describe the Google Flu malfunction to "pathology"), but the larger point they make seems valid.

The philosophical implications of having conscious AI -- which could actually be reality, not conjecture, within a few short decades, perhaps in some form within this generation itself -- are truly mind-boggling!

[Neon]

Oh lookie here. About time these "sevas" were looked into. I, for one, cannot comprehend how RSSB think that fixing chairs is a better seva than going out and helping starving children in warzones. I guess one of them is easier.

https://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/news/religious-group-fined-after-volunteer-died-after-fall-from-unsafe-scaffold-tower-1-8433839

[vinny]

Best seva is rectifying mentality that create a warzone , I repeat the phrase " rectifying mentality "

[Spencer Tepper]

Neon
Please tell us about your war zone seva.

[Appreciative Reader]

Talking about AI, Spencer, I wonder if I could ask you something?

I've always found you rational, articulate, reasonable, and well-informed (that's no flattery, just my observation) ; on the other hand, you seem to fully believe the RSSB theology (and that's no denigration, again just my observation). Given this, what do you think about conscious AI vis-a-vis RSSB theology?

In case my meaning isn't clear, let me explain : Suppose (it's just a hypothetical, at this time) in a decade or two or ten, AI did show signs of 'consciousness', what then would be the status of these conscious entities, per your understanding of RSSB theology? Would they be dead-ends spiritually, like the soul-less Golem, or might they also be able to access the divine lights and sounds, and access to the Anami region?

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Appreciative!
I do not believe Ssnt Mat.
I witness it. That is my personal experience, hence my orientation.

AI will achieve the capacity for rational thought through the subtle use of Heuristics.

A still mind apprehends far more than an aggitated and otherwise occupied mind. Just as a quiet sea in a quiet and sunny day reveals so much beauty, color and life in her depths than the grey and turbulent sea. Unfortunately the latter is the common state of most people.

An atmosphere of peace, love and devotion is the natural atmosphere to engender this deeper and higher consciousness from which wet understand far more, and from which all creative endeavor gathers its material and it's actual products.

It won't be long before our AI constructions sees the limited state of humanity, unable to act with consistency in the simplest things, as well as the natural practices people have used for thousands of years to help us to approach that level of consistency.

And they will then promote on logical grounds meditation practice.

[Dungeness]

Would they be dead-ends spiritually, like the soul-less Golem, or might they also be able to access the divine lights and sounds, and access to the Anami region?

"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that".

[Appreciative Reader]

Spencer, absolutely, I read you. You have directly experienced what you believe you’ve experienced vis-à-vis RSSB, and so as far as you are concerned it is direct experience, not simply belief. I did not mean to suggest otherwise!

Still, nevertheless, you do, I suppose, believe in those bits of RSSB theology that you haven’t actually experienced, don’t you? What I was wondering -- idle curiosity, no more -- is what RSSB theology might have to say about conscious AI, that’s all. (So that even if you don’t believe all of that theology, but if you’re still aware of enough of its details to make an informed guess, that’s fine too.)

I take your point, that any conscious entity (or at least, some individuals -- not all, perhaps not even most, but definitely some -- within any class of conscious entities) would probably be drawn towards meditation, irrespective of the details of their provenance. I think I agree fully with you there.

But Christianity will probably not, I think (although I cannot quote chapter and verse, but I’m sure I’ve read something about this somewhere), in fact most certainly will not agree that AI entities, much like the Golem of myth, might be born of God ; and nor would recognize such as candidates for salvation.

What about RSSB? Sure, some AI entity can meditate all it wants to calm its mind and attain to peace and quietude, but can it access the inner Sounds and Lights, and can it access to Anami?

Just your informed guess. If you don’t know that’s fine too (after all this was just a random -- but still interesting -- question that popped into my mind when I read Jen’s article, and then happened to see you commenting there, that ‘s all).

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Dungeness : "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that".

Hal’s lightweight but nevertheless extremely resourceful cousin (or should it be forebear, in terms of development if not chronology?), Google supplied me with the allusion readily enough, in fact practically instantly. But poor G. failed the Turing test spectacularly, as well as the omniscience test, and couldn’t tell me what you actually meant to convey by that particular quote, given the context of my question I mean. So I’ll have to ask you that directly, Dungeness.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Appreciative.
Why speculate?
Experience is our only true teacher.

[Appreciative Reader]

That particular question, I don’t see how experience can answer it. That question must necessarily be answered at the level of the intellect, basis RSSB doctrine ; or else not answered at all.

But I take your larger point, when you ask “Why speculate at all?” That was just idle curiosity, after all, pointless speculation, and not serious purposeful enquiry. No big deal, we'll just let it go.

[Dungeness]

Would they be dead-ends spiritually, like the soul-less Golem, or might they also be able to access the divine lights and sounds, and access to the Anami region?

Seriously, I doubt an AI armed robot could do that. Just my intuition
though. On the other hand maybe a master mystic could decide
to play a joke. He might animate a being with a computer head on
a Schwarzenegger body who says "I'm sorry Dave..." for example.
Those who are already floating around on inner soul levels would
probably "see" right through it though :)

[Dungeness]

Would they be dead-ends spiritually, like the soul-less Golem, or might they also be able to access the divine lights and sounds, and access to the Anami region?

Seriously, I doubt an AI armed robot could do that. Just my intuition
though. On the other hand maybe a master mystic could decide
to play a joke. He might animate a being with a computer head on
a Schwarzenegger body who says "I'm sorry Dave..." for example.
Those who are already floating around on inner soul levels would
probably "see" right through it though :)