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March 28, 2018


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Spencer, its funny that you mention being a hobbyist who does painting, because that is my favourite hobby.

Have taken many lessons over the years and tried all the different kinds of paints and techniques.

Now am enjoying doing abstract / impressionistic / expressionist type paintings which is about expressing my own creative energy.

So a kind of a theme about our life interests and our spiritual journey. Still learning from others but at the same time moving on into one's own individual unique expression whilst in human form and also spiritual.

" But after a career in software and seeing the scale of data
mining and assaults on privacy, I choose to remain anonymous. "

Once proudly leasing IBM 370 and U can tell my amazement
when the secretary at Beas had a mini model of that machine on his desk


@ Spencer - your master said once that if the Lord shows you something you digest it. Don’t tell others. If the Lord wanted other people to know He would let others know Himself.

You wouldn’t go around walking with diamonds showing out in this world lest you get robbed or God forbid worse.

Maharaj Charan Singh Ji made it clear that value your grace do not share.

I have known people who have told others very interesting stuff more than anything I have read here. And that grace they shared has gone to the people they told stuff to whilst the other persons darkness has gone on to the ones They shared with.

I listen to Maharaji Charan Singh and wouldn’t share anything. Ps the experiences most state here don’t correspond to what is inside.

Listen to your own master brother.you go against Him not me. Trust me you can’t help anyone by sharing.

Please don’t argue back I’m only telling you what the Big man said! Yes you can state your opinions but that’s all they are opinions x

@ 777

Do we need Edward Snowden to look at that IBM 370 in beas lol

@Arjuna,......writes,...”Listen to your own master brother.you go against Him not me. Trust me you can’t help anyone by sharing.”

Jim Surherland answers” I TOTALLY disagree! Cults thrive on secrecy. Sharing is caring, for our fellow human beings. Every thing I presently have is because some one like Spencer Tepper shared with me. Or Manjit, or Brian, or Lane, 777, or any thing at all that otther humans with real Names who weren't hiding in closets too ashamed of their self worth to share their inner most beings and stuff that helps others, like me, keep on keeping on.

The only thing that empowers Gurus and Cult Masters are the secrets they claim no one else should share, in order to keep them selves in power, claiming to have what ofhers don’t have

“It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe.” 1 Corintians 1:21

“ How shall they hear with out a Preacher. “ Romans 10:14

“ A man’s gift makes room for him and brings him before great men.” Ephesians 4:8-11

“ And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and power.” 1 Cor. 2:4

@ Jim hello.

Say if there is an element of truth in not sharing and that we take on others dross if we share.

So are you saying Maharaj Charan Singh was a cult leader now. Is he not the one who initiated you? Do you really believe that you have power to go within yourself??? Something pulls us up. We are totally blind are we not. You have lost me Jim - truth be told I’m taken a bit back

@Arjuna,.....please do not put words in my mouth. You, or no one else really knows what Charan Singh told, or tells me, privately, other that what I decide to share, occasionally.

Perhaps Newbies recently on the Path with nothing to share should shut up and listen, before preaching to others, but when I hear some o e loke Spence with 30 years experience on tne Path initited by the same Master as I share what he re ently shared, and I am able to corraborate with much of what he shared, and vice versa, than I would think Newbies or complainers on the Path with no experiences would take notice and be motivated that thete really just might be adventures i since that have not yet been privy to.

I have never been a Doper, not even tried any, other than Weed a couple of times, but I surely don’t disbelieve that Dopers have never seen the same light we do in Meditation, the soft, or slow and easy way to ignite the inside Flame.

A sample of the Book Manjit linked.

““Like a rattlesnake stirring in the weeds, a thin line of energy violently unwrapped its flapping tail from my sacrum. This creature had a feral, untamable intelligence, its energy a dangerous live wire of swerving electricity. Was this kundalini? Whatever it was, it rapidly swung up to my root chakra, paused, then quickly penetrated the energy center at my pelvis. My breath seized, and I lay frozen as this fiery whip of searing energy crawled up my spinal column on its own accord, igniting each chakra until it reached the underside of my scalp.
A troubling cacophony of voices spoke to me; I saw a billion eyes and ears spiraling out in fractal patterns across the universe, witnessing the story of creation. A fountain of sparking white light opened up above my head,”

Excerpt From
The Electric Jesus
Jonathan Talat Phillips
This material may be protected by copyright.

@ Jim sorry to have upset you.

Will leave you in peace.

@Arguna,.....Not upset. I just don’t want to arrive to Sach Khand ashamed to have lived, and died with out having ever shared every thing I was graced with . Maybe if I was still young, like you, I might be more inclined to not share and hord it all to my self and remain selfish, but, as soon as I found Gold at 35, I have not been able to dig it up fast enough to share with my fellow Seekers.

If you ever meet me there, you will at least know who I am. I won’t recogise you ,or any of the others who hide in secret with out sharing their Booty and Treasure.


Hi Arjuna

I appreciate your effort to help.

Are you a Satsangi? Are you an initiate of Maharaj Charan Singh?

And finally, are you keeping up with what your vows?

@ Jim - you sound cool and I am glad I have not upset you. It’s the last thing I want to do to anyone. I am dying to go within - pardon the pun.

@ Spencer

Looks like you know something I don’t 😀. I have not sat in mediation for ages.

I was initiated by Master Gurinder.

As far as Initiation is concerned, none of the Sant Mat initiation is missing from tne Internet, to any one interested, and not to lazy to run the searches. Even the 5 Names Mantra is posted in many places. We have discussed the Simran, Dhyan, and Bahjun here, and on RSS, and on Ishwar's forums, as well as other places. What secrets are left?

The Bullets are all the same Caliber. Only the Gun is Singhled out as Big Guns, Little Guns, Live Guns, and dead Guns.

But, which are Canons, and which are Pea Shooters?

I have had many Initiations. Initiations only mean the starting, or entrance in to a new experience. Only ME decides to continue or quit once initiated.

I was first initiated with out my consent, when Baptised as a baby by a Catholic Priest, when presented by my Father and Mother to God, as they understood Him.

Later, I was initiated again, takiing my “ First Communion,” around 7 years old. Again, not by choice, but not fighting it, either.

Then, “Confirmation” at about eleven, still not by choice, but accepting what my parents wanted me to do.

Then, a freaking REAL scary Initiation, when I was inducted in to the U.S. Force a month after my 17th Birthday at Boot Camp in Texas! Now, that Initition really changed my life!!!

Than, I was married. That was surely an Initiation! No Guru taught me what I had to do to learn the meditation techniques involved to retain my same Bride for the last 56.5 years! It took, and still does, a lot of faith that my Bride , will hang with me until death do us past, as Vowed, as my Master will!

Then, there were many more Initiations I chose to do, such as Baptised in Water again, at Age 35, than the Baptism of The Holy Spirit, then Twelve Degrees in the Rosicrucians, three in the Martinists, before Thakar Singh, and last, but certainly not least,

Initiation by Proxy from Charan Singh.

The Big one will arrive, with out warning, and not by choice, when I die physically.

Meanwhile,.....back here in Charasi,......I await to find out the next Mission my Higher Soul will project to!

Until then,.......???

Hi Arjuna!
What is stopping you from meditation?

And that decree He gave
to keep the proud at bay,
For those who cry he bends
So in their darkness one bright ray..

It is His nature for He is Mercy
And if you gain some wealth thereby
A drop from an infinite sea
Then lighter still my heart abides
I have lost nothing.

@ Spencer - I lost faith that is why I don’t mediate

@ Arjuna,.....Usually, most past Masters had their favorite, closest Desciple, who was expected to be their Successor after their passing. At least, that Desciple was respected by most orher followers as the Master’s “ Right Hand Man”, or woman.

Are you aware of Gurinder having even one, such loyal Inner circle close Desciple? If so, may e they could help you renew your faith. ( if you ever had any? )

If not , there must be a couple of his close Security Sevadors that knows the inside truth about Gurinder’s Agenda.

When I was at the Dera last Oct., I found one of the male Sevadors who wore the Army uniforms, thinking I might persuade him to make one phone call to my Taxi driver with his Cell phone. He patiently listened to my story about why I was so desperate to make one single quick phone call outside to let my Taxi Driver know where to pick me up, and to get his Name and Vehicle License Number so they would let him in the Main Gate to the Dera.

But the Sevador told me,...” Brother, “ they” don‘t let us have phones here either. I don’t know how to help you.” So, this Guy , in spite of him wearing his Army Uniform, was just as much of a prisoner there as I was.

Gurinder is in Vancouver, B.C. today, and was in No. California at Petaluma several days ago. My wife asked how come I didn’t fly accross the country to get another peek at him. I told her, I have lost my faith in him, if I ever had any to loose? I wouldn’t go see him if he showed up in my City.

@ Jim - that is a heavy! Why no phones you needed help in just contacting your taxi driver.

I had faith once when I expected maharaj Charan Singh to initiate me but I was too young when he left.

He smiled at me when I was 8 years old and got up from his chair and walked right up to me with folded arms when my mum was told by a sevadar that she is in gods house and should go around for another darshan.

Now you can see why my faith is gone

What is his agenda?

@Arjuna,....his Agenda is to rob, steal, and capture the individual identity, of all who reject The Father’s Gift of the Grace of Human Birth, Limited Free Will, and Individuality. His agenda is to delete all individual Dualities who submit to him, in to his own private Non-Duality of Gurinderism.
Its called Advaita Gurinderism of Non-Duality. It means, he’s Dual, and your Non.

@ Jim - is he the anti christ then?

@Arguna,....no, he is just another Agent of the Demiruge. He has a lot of competitors.

If you have Christ in you, the Hope of Glory, you will know the real Christ from the deceivers.

“ I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless, I live, yet, not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Galations 2:20

No, that’s the mystery of real Initiation. You can never understand it until you experience it.

But, to expand, I would have to start preaching in a Church where no preaching is allowed.

This Church of the Churchless is the Church of the blind leading the blind.

@ Jim - you have totally lost me.

So he isn’t God but is his agent right?

@ Jim that would imply he also has power like a God ?

Hi Arjuna - Jim's statement that Gurinder is an agent of the Demiurge is simply a wild opinion. I doubt that he would like to be asked to back up his statement with any real proof.

in Gnosticism and other theological systems, the Demiurge is a heavenly being, subordinate to the Supreme Being, that is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to all that is purely spiritual.

I don't think that Gurinder fits that definition.

@pooh bear,....”wild opinions” appear to be the Consensious Reality of The Church of the Churchless, do you agree? So, mine is as good as any other.

But, just where fo you think Gurinder in the Gnostic or Theological System?

You can’t just Troll in here, reacting my opinion, with out having one or more of your own. Do what’s yours?

If Gurinder was an Agent of Anami Purush, he would not be continuously expanding his material building projects world wide. And he would not be increasing his personal wealth, that has no use in Anami Radhasoami.

The Demiurge and his agents are material creationists, who’s Mission is to do exactly as Gurinder appears to be doing.

What say you?

@ poor bear (childhood favourite cartoon of mine).

Why hide?

@ Jim. Top man! I agree with you brother!!! That makes sense 10 years or so ago I could not make sense to me. It is all about money and expanding and that is why I stopped going. I just hope the Supreme Being - The Omega - the True Lord from whence I come helps me. Guides me to a true master who is here to take souls back. I am interested in locating my true origin!

On that note it’s night here and cold in the desert so I bid you night!

Jim - I don't have an opinion on the RSSB organisation. My concern has only ever been with the teaching. Obviously they are two quite different and separate things, but many followers become muddled because they see them as one.

The organisation world-wide is flawed because it is comprised of, and run by flawed people. it's just another aspect of life's nonsense.
The teaching on the other hand is a timeless method that has demonstrated its efficacy to many.

I kept clear of the RSSB organisation side of things back in Charan's time and continue to do so. But I had a good relationship with Charan and that has continued with Gurinder. I just don't see the point in either running around after him or worrying about his family wealth. The teaching and the practice are enough for me, but I understand that we are all different and some people have different needs.

I read your posts with interest. It is fascinating to see the varieties of understanding that can be brought to a simple teaching.

@ Pooh bear - hello.

Please tell me why Guru Ravidass spent his life in poverty as did the heavyweights like Kabir Sahib? Guru Ravidass was even offered the philosophers stone and a rubi but he stirred right clear of them. Jesus was a poor carpenter.

Why has all of a sudden God become materialistic?

Arjuna - I'm sorry, but I don't have explanations for the different situations that mystics live in. Yes, some have been poor, and some have been in comfortable professions such as engineer or lawyer.

I do know that the time I have spent alone talking to Gurinder, that he is a good man who is not materialistic, and whose company I enjoy. As for his family wealth, I have no idea what that is about.

Why is the RSSB organisation developing properties all over the world? That's another question for which I don't have an answer. I have a possible theory, but the question is not important to me as I no longer have any interest in the external activities that are available in the RSSB organisation.

I hope you find what you are looking for, Arjuna. I can't help but be reminded of some lines from T.S. Eliot's poem, 'Little Gidding' :

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive back where we started
And know the place for the first time.

"Why is the RSSB organisation developing properties all over the world?"

Probably because its going to be another big religion in the world. Can't see there being a successor after Gurinder but then there will be all the stories and myths about Sant Mat (just like the stories in the Bible and the Koran) and voilà another religion.

Hi Arjuna
Check out King Janaka. Wealth or poverty makes no difference.

One can be more materialistic in their poverty than the piety of the wealthiest of humans. It is impossible at our level to know. But where the human mind, flawed as it is, forms judgements, there is the true demiurge. It's within us. The human mind.

The practice is everything.
It is the same practice of Charan Singh and Sawan Singh, and Christ. The practice of worshiping the Spirit, and seeking forgiveness of all that stands between us and the Spirit. And that is our mind.

But the mind is always intervening to keep us from that treasure that is within us.

So it isn't necessary to pass judgment on any human being, but instead to make progress to find that infinite wealth within yourself.

If one does not see Christ in Gurindar, then they do not see Him within themselves.

If you pray for guidance you must also do your part.

And the part you can play is to engage in continuous prayer. Use what you were given.

Then you may happily learn for yourself that where there are fakes, where there are copies, there must be an original.

And that what appears to be the flawed copy, the stone the worldly builders rejected, is actually the original, the corner stone of this and every other reality.

Because, to the human mind, which is the slave of the Demiurge, the original looks like a flawed copy.

My testimony of Gurindar is that He is the reincarnation of that being who walked the earth as Jesus of Nazareth.

@ poo bear,.....you say Gurinder is a good person. So, you obviously do not see him as a God Man, as his admiring devotees do.

@ Arjuna, as I told you before, I feel your pain. But I would certainly feel it a lot more, if Charan was still alive and he was expanding RSSB Franchises across the planet faster than McDonalds, Starbucks, and KFC, but under his own
RSSB Brand, supported by Amie’s and other vegetarian Businesses.

I agree with poo bear that the Sant Mat Philosophy is the Magnet that attracts the Marked souls, but finding that Master we are Marked for is not for the faint of heart. If I had visited the Dera the first time, and Charan would have been there speaking and making Locker Room jokes as Gurinder did, than I would still be searching for the Master I was marked for! So, Building and property expansion is not the only blemish of Gurinder’s exposed Mission of whether he is an agent of the Demiurge or an Agent of Anami Purush.

But as Sant Mat teaches us, we can never find God by searching out side. He can only be found inside. So you MUST search for Him inside of your own body. And only you, can clean out your Porto Potty and clean it up, to transform it from a Porto Potty to a Spiritual Temple to practice and for experimentation of The Science of The Soul within your own Temple. No Guru can do that for you. They can motivate you to do it ,, and even teach you how to practice it, but only You can do it.

So, how can you discover what is inside of you, as Sawan Singh said to use as sign posts along The Way? ( Dots of light, lightning bolts, Light, sun, moon, and Radiant Master ) some of us in this Church have testified we have either seen some of the signs, if not all, plus the various Sounds. These Signs are the reproducible signs that all of us who have been initiated by a Sant Mat Master have in common. If we go inside in our own individual Temples and put in the initial 2-1/2 hours a day in meditation, until we break thru to receive these experiences, then once we break thru, less meditation time will be needed,

Now, the Visuals, i.e. people, places, and things grooved in to our Causal bodies, as Sanskaras, are all different, as individuals, and are based on our past life Karmas. Now we can access these memories by taking the short cut of many types of drugs, and hallucigenes , such as Ayawasca and LSD, but once these substances are ingested, we can no longer control how long we must remain in spirit, as we can while in Meditation. As for me, I know I have an addictive personality, so being addicted to Spirit, I would rather be addicted to Meditation to bond with spirit rather than by becoming addicted to Ayawasca ceremonies or LSD to bond to the spirit not being able to control when I want to come and go as I please, as I am able to do in meditation.

But, Cutting to the chase, in the Big Picture, none of us, including the Gurus, know all of the answers we, as individuals really need to fulfill our Missions.

You can write Gurinder a letter, and ask him questions, hoping he will personally answer you, as one of his millions of followers, or, you can attend an Ishwar Puri Workshop when he comes to your area, hoping to
get a two minute interview, if your lucky.

Or,......you can go back to Meditation again, search inside, and share your experiences or ask questions right here in this Church, hoping to invite other struggling souls like us, to share and compare notes with each other.

And we don’t even have a PayPal donation Box,....yet! 😇

Sent from my i Pad -- Jim Sutherland

Jim said: @ poo bear,.....you say Gurinder is a good person. So, you obviously do not see him as a God Man, as his admiring devotees do.

Charan was my own father's age, and I saw him as a fatherly teacher who taught me things that my own father knew nothing of.
Gurinder is 7 years younger than me and I see him as a brother who has done the work Charan gave him to do and was instructed to take up the duties of a Master. Neither Charan or Gurinder wanted this role.

I have never considered Charan or Gurinder as God as I don't have the ability to make that assessment. I knew however in Charan's lifetime that I had never encountered a human being like him before. And having met with Gurinder, I know now that there are two humans unlike anyone I have ever met before. But as for anything other than exceptional people fulfilling a teaching role, I declare ignorance.

I try and be a realist and stay with what is tangible, and not let my imagination run. Many initiates are fundamentalist in their attitude and are rooted in belief. I am unable to believe.

Hi Arjuna
Your family is not your family.
Christ said He came with a sword to divide the family members, not unite them.

So it is advantageous that you understand that we are passengers on a train and will go our separate ways.

The tough love message can be the most frustrating. But we remember it.

To truly love one another in the way that is most helpful is to be grounded in a love that is eternal.

In the brightest light we close our eyes in pain.

But slowly, oh so slowly, we own them again. And see.

Hi Jen
This whole place was to be our playground, the place where we could have any number of hobbies.

The mountain climber, nearly two thirds up that steep face, hanging by ropes in a tent, surviving days of blinding blizzard, legs frozen, says his goodbyes to wife and children by satellite phone, and then, as the light of sun illuminates his tent, and his eyes slowly close for the last time, smiles and thinks... "this was just a hobby..."

@ Spencer - my parents died when I was a child and I have no brothers and sisters.

Have a great day and yes I am hard as nails - mentally and thanks to the Forces (training).

Have a great day

RSSB “Franchises?”..........I really dount that Gurinder throws darts at a map, and decides he wants to aquire land there, and recruit volunteer workers to build more Buildings for free, and turn over the Real Estate Deeds to RSSB. There has to be inside Contracts only known by those involved. But my hunch is, it starts with RSSB Initiates, who own land or property they no longer are using for any thing benificial, to them, but still are required to pay Real Estate Taxes on. Most likely, they are unable to sell their property for profit, so they contact RSSB and donate their property to RSSB, which then becomes a Tax Exempt property under the religeous property exemptions in the various countries that have those Laws in place. Then, the one who donates the property, becomes the Property Manager, and the Big Kahuna, and starts recruting local Sevadors to improve the property, build and maintain the buildings, etc. as happened at Petsluma, Fayettville, and Texas. Most likely, the same all over. During Charan's time, when he was against property expansion, many Sstsangs were hosted in private homes, for small groups of Initiates and Seekers in local areas, so these huge buildings were never needed. But Gurinder changed that, and put an end to home Satsangis and he ended all socializing and he chose Designated Speakers ( Zombie Robots ) containing A.I. to deliver the canned, Boiler Plate Satsangs at the weekly Satsangs. If all of these properties in all the different countries no longer had Tax exemtions for those designated RSSB properties, my guess is, the RSSB Label would come off of them rapidly, and Home Satsangs would quickly return, even if under ground. Then, the Big Kahuna Property Donators would loose their power and favoratism among Satsangis, and Satsangs , Socializing, Pot Luck meals at Sat Sangs would return to how they were during Charan's time.

Hi Arjuna!

I am your brother. As is Jim, and Jen, your sister.

@ Spencer - that means a lot and I mean that.

It is the kindest thing anyone has said to me for a long while


Thank you brother.

I look forward to visiting Churchless every day and it is like a family to me! 😊

The problem, Jim, is trying to understand the growth of an organization under numerous pressures and to then project our own motives upon others we have never met.

And that has very little to do with the Teachings, and our relationship to our own Master, who refused to comment on any other religion or organization, or spiritual or worldly leader.

Personally, until Baba Ji fell Ill, He had nearly annual visits to America, and this was all expedited by the presence of the centers.

I travel to different hospitals for work. The fact that now I can go into any supermarket in any city in America and purchase a frozen dinner made to my exact dietary restrictions, made in the healthiest way possible, and quite tasty, is a seva which I am thankful for. But not just Amy's, but their success that has pulled other competitors into producing an even wider variety of such foods.

This is not only a great business success, against all odds, but by making healthy vegetarian food available and popular, this also makes killing less also popular. So the result is more people making choices to harm less to feed their stomachs.

I view this as an astounding marketing miracle.

And we all benefit from it.

Satsangis are not restricted from being friends with anyone they like, holding any number of parties they like.

But Satsang should always be about the teachings, not whether a seeker can get along with the clique of personalities holding Satsang in their private homes.

And this was roundly criticized by others as secretive and insuler, even cultish. So Baba Ji did away with all that. Everything isn't perfect. But it is transparent.

If you want a party and homemade cookies then let's have one!

Spence,....it appears either we don’t have any past, or present Meditators in this Church, brave enough to share any of their past inner experiences, except you and I?

Either no one has them, or you and I are mentally ill, as I have often been accussed of being. They used to make statements like,...” Are you off your Meds? You better go back to them” but, I have never been on any Prescription Meds, Alcohol, Weed, or Psychedelics of any kind.

I have watched many Documentaties about people drinking Ayawasca , by traveling to Peru to the Amazon to many Shaman Retreats. There are also Underground Ayawasca Ceremonies even in NYC.

But, puking my guts out , and having diarearrea is not my idea of having a spiritual experience. Also, like in a Meditation Path, Ayawasca is also a Path, a path of the spirit vine. You must continue on that path, pukng and soiling your underware, in order to keep going further in, deeper and deeper.

But, as I said before, once you enter those Portholes, unlike in meditation, you can’t chose when to escape, if you suddenly find your self being attacked by some monster!

And,there are Monsters , many , that cruise the Astral Realm. For instance, about a week ago, I encountered one I can’t even imagine where it originated from, or how it got that way! It attacted me, full body, like we were in a Boxing Ring , or some where. I was trying to punch at it, but I actually felt like I did not want to hurt it, but only defend my self! The Monster was in full flesh color, like we humans, but it was really grotess! It was very muscular, like a Gladiator, but it had TWO heads!! The head on its shoulders was oversized, too big for its body. But it had another small head, on the right side of its chest, over the heart, both heads had normal eyes, nose, mouth and ears, but no hair. As it came at me trying to hit me, and grab me, It never had any hands. It only had arms, or stumps, with the hands missing, as if they had been amputated! As it came at me, I did not want to hit it, in either face, so I smacked it in tne chest , near its smaller face so hard, I could hear the smack against bare flesh, and when I hit it, it immediately turned around, with its back towards me. The back looked normal, then, it turned back around really pissed off, and came at me again with its two arm stumps bobbing up and down. I decided to go back to Simran, and it vaporized, and I came out of meditation. Saved by the Names!! Now, had I been there by Ayawasca, ........I might now really be in a Looney Ward!

In this morning’s Meditation, the glittering Silver White Diamond showed up at the Third Eye, after only about 15 minutes! I stabalized it quickly, and two faces appeared, one right after the other. First, the piercing eyes, then full face, both with beards, but not white, they looked about 35-40 years old, but each looked a little different, one appearing at a time, starring at me, but no other communication. I remember trying to recogise either of them, but could not remember having ever met them. Neither of them had Turbans or head coverings. . If I had to choose a face, both faces looked like the faces of Jesus, as some of the paintings sketch him. The hair was the same mixed grey and black as the beards. Actually, intellegent, friendly looking faces. But, as usual, they didn’t hang out long enough with me for me to ask questions, as Charan does with you.

Every Meditation time, has dfferent Portholes that remain to open, as long as I keep knocking.
No one may enter my Temple and remain there, but me, or who I invite to enter and visit.

@ Jim - I get paralysed at night and cannot move and then wake up. Think I need to mediate and no I don’t think you belong in a looney bin.

Leonardo Da Vinci saw the most horrible faves in a cave he wrote. Was he inside I wonder

Hi Jim!

When you see these monsters, what do you do? What is your approach?

Spence asks ..”When you see these monsters, what do you do? What is your approach?”

Me: As in the outer world, when we are threatened, our Program is Fight or Flight. So, same in the Inner world with our Astral bodies. As my above example, I first tried to defend myself with my fists, , but in other situations, I run trying to escape, but usually fall over a cliff, or a big hole, or out of the sky. It varies. When it happens in meditation, if I think to do Simran, the monsters usually vanish. But if it happens while in lucid dreams, I don’t think about Simran. I think Simran by passes Initiates from the Low Astral realms where these lower entities hang out looking to terrorize the tourists.
A few days ago, I was running away from something, and fell off a building hgh up, but managed to grab the edge of the roof with both hands, and was hanging there, looking down at an unending the deep abbess below! I never thought of doing Simran. But I could not lift my legs up to get back off the roof, and most as I was about to let ho and fall, I started screaming, “ Please Help me? Some one please help me?,A Strange man appeared, looked at me, taking his sweet old time, then reached down, grabbed me under the arms and pulled me up far enough to grab one of my feet, and hauled my up! I was obviously grateful, thanking him, then I returned back to my body.

Many such incidents happen, which I have never kept records of, but remember the important ones that have meaning to me, or recent ones as above.

A few weeks ago, in a Lucid dream, I had a real bad experience, I have not yet been able to process. I sure hope it was not a past life memory. But, I found myself standing in a crowd of people on the street, and spotting a man in the crowd wearing a green Jacket that I was drawn to. But I clutched a knife in my hands with open blade, and ran up to him thru the crowd and stabbed him in the heart and chest several times holding the knife with both hands! I never saw his face. Only his body below the neck. And, again, I surfaced, out of the dream, really agitated and glad it was not real. ......Or, was it real, in the Astral?

@ Arjuna,...you say you have dream paralysis. I also do, many times. Usually, I am traveling real fast with either my car or motorcycle, and am ready to crash in to domething, and my feet and hands are frozen! I am unable to move my foot to the brake peddle, or take the other off the accelerator, and I crash! Then, return to body.

Carl Jung looked at the subject of good vs evil in a very different light. According to him, one cannot deny the existence of the dark side in oneself.

Jordan Peterson: Embrace your shadow because its strength can guarantee peace
(3:45 mins)


Hi Jim

You wrote
"I think Simran by passes Initiates from the Low Astral realms where these lower entities hang out looking to terrorize the tourists."

Exactly. No need for regions 1 or 2 when you follow instructions.

Religious people believe in the devil. Satsangis believe in the negative power called Kal, who is actually "mind". So how to deal with negative entities whilst meditating? By fighting with them? If it is our mind, then we are fighting with our mind?

Probably acceptance will help, that we are not perfect, that we have an inner dark shadow self and we can try to integrate this self by using acceptance. Human beings are very flawed and we can't pretend to be anything better than anyone else.

How does one simply skip the lower inner regions where monsters dwell? What instructions to follow? Doing Simran and imagining some kind of saint or guru within who is going to save us? Maybe that will help. If some godly being does appear to help us, I would think that it is also a manifestation of a part of ourselves, our higher self.

If Simran becomes automatic, and our Astral body keeps doing it when the physical body is asleep, then the lower Astral plains get by passed even during the dream state. That’s why the Masters recommend doing Simran at all times, when ever the mind is running out. Until the Simran is grooved in our Astral bodies, then we are open to being harressed by all kinds of Astral entities.

As I said in the past, regarding Astral shells, where that soul has either moved on to the Causal Mind, or, reincarnated, and the Astral Shell has not had enough time to disintegrate yet, then earth bound disincarnated spirit entities, many spirits from other Dimensions that have never incarnated in human bodies, may take temporary resdence in Astral Shells, posng as that former person, and fool people who see them while Astral projecting, or by Mediums who channel these spirits. They may pose as relatives or friends, or even Masters, but testing these spirits with asimran will expose their fradulent mascerades.

Traveling the Astral realms induced by psychodelics with out guidance from any Spiritual Masters should be carefully researched, before deciding to enter uncharted Astal realms.

Hi Jen

Yes you are right. Some are surprised to hear that all the regions of hell, and paradise, are all in the Astral realms. It is immense. But it is just mind.

Since the Astral regions are all part of the karmic web and a reflection of mind one can look at all of it as part of ourselves. Whatever happens is karmic, and that's the ripples of our past returning.

But we can look at this world in the same way we can look at the Astral and even Brahmand above it. Whatever happens to us wasn't anyone else's fault. Those Monsters are just carrying out our own orders. They were pushed to push us, and by our own hand long ago.

There is no 'out there' here.

If we really want to interact with others who are not actually our own projections, that can only happen in a place completely free of ego. That's the third region. Here we all are subject to ego's domination.

But it is also in that quiet place in the dark with our Master where there is nothing to possess, be proud of, react to. Just love, and respect.

And that we can experience anywhere.

How does one simply skip the lower inner regions where monsters dwell?
What instructions to follow? Doing Simran and imagining some kind of saint
or guru within who is going to save us? Maybe that will help. If some godly
being does appear to help us, I would think that it is also a manifestation
of a part of ourselves, our higher self.

I've always been afraid of monsters. Mostly those inside
who whisper "what if" or "just this once" or "We'll start

Simran is good but it's always felt a bit reactive and
calculated at times. Like a bedtime prayer you recite
mainly when it's dark and scary.

What you need I think is a real "teddy bear" that never
leaves, Some kind of immersive friendship that shields
you from the monster's attack before you have to haul
out your fevered simran. Maybe out of the corner of
your eye, you'll see the monsters bouncing off the shield...
and you'll share a laugh with your friend.

Of course, it's easy to fantasize at this level what'd be like
to have transcended the need for simran. Even one of
Great Master's evolved sevadars, Bibi Rakhi, was in trouble
on an Astral joyride when she visited "Hell" and was too
petrified to remember Great Master. Or even Simran.
Ishwar Puri relates that his family heard her screaming
and had to summon Great Master to pull her out. I seem
to recall this incident is mentioned in "With the Three Masters"
somewhere too.

Or even Simran.
Ishwar Puri relates that his family heard her screaming

I know the three volumes almost by heart

Child-horror stories
giving a complete false idea of RSSB powers

Makes me think of crowley - only book i have burnt in the chéminé


The Simran of the Master IS the Master.

Reactive, proactive, gentle or angry or tempted. Say it any way you like. But hold tight to it.

And find your way through Simran into the Simran.

Move inside the Simran. There is Master and Shabd.

Simran is encapsulated Shabd.

There is no force in creation more powerful. Nothing can touch you. With the power of Simran you can rule the many regions of creation. Indeed you are as Master's proxy, commanding them all, and honoring them all as you also worship Master, your true higher self.

But do keep your mind on Simran. And keep Master's Visage before you, and His love in your heart. Make this your rejoicing, your work, your worship. Nothing can touch it.

From quantify comes quality.

Then you will see that Master is the one who has been worshiping you, day and night.

PS the effect of Simran to dispell the negative powers doesn't take practice. That effect is instant. You just have to put your mind on it.

Jen, this isn't fighting the negative powers at all. No conflict. It's simply tuning the light on. Shadows automatically disappear.

What is the RSSB Initiate’s Jury verdict on using RADAHASOAMI Name for Simran?

In one of the books, “ Correspondence With Certain Americans”, Mahaweshri said that Radhasoami IS the Five Names! He said they are, ....RA DHA SO AM I.

Actually, he made some very good arguments in favor of using the Name for Simran. He said that Swamiji only gave out the Sikh Five Name “ Panch Nam” Simran to those he initiated, because he never found any one ready for Radhasoami until Rai Salig Ram came to him. He claimed that he started using that Name there after .

As I said earlier, I have added it to my Simran many years ago.

RA = Male + Polarity = IDA
Dha = Female - Polarity = PINGALA
SO = SHUSHAMNA = Entanglement

As I said, I used the Name alone, for about 3 months, before going back to the Sikh 5 Names, but kept RS as the 6th Name. Its now embedded in my Simran real deep.

I know there is another Sant Mat Branch that also uses the 6 Names for Simran, but can’t remember which.

When I was trying to sort it out for my own understanding, I always go back to the Sant Mat Chart, with the Realms shown as ending vertically from earth to Anami. I saw my 5 Name Simran being used as a YO YO, always bobbing up and down from Johti to Sat Nam and back, up , than back down, up, than back down, with out every ascending to the Goal, Anami, 3 Realms above Sat Nam.

If course, Sant Das’s argument about using the single Name was, that you start at the top, and remain there, so why even keep going back down 7 lower Steps instead of starting at the 8th, and staying there?

Any way, each to his own, but I settled the Conundrum for my self many years ago by using the 6 Names.


Nice one, I like this "... this isn't fighting the negative powers at all. No conflict. It's simply tuning the light on. Shadows automatically disappear."

Spencer said: 'Jen, this isn't fighting the negative powers at all. No conflict. It's simply tuning the light on. Shadows automatically disappear.'

Charan once said to us in answer to a similar question about negative entities: 'Don't try and fight the darkness - you will lose. Rather turn your face to the light and you automatically turn your back on the darkness'.

I have followed this advice when confronted by negative entities in meditation. It has always worked. Most of the time I remain indifferent to what I see, and it invariably dissolves. They are either manifestations of my own mind (which doesn't actually belong to me), or entities of mind substance. At the end of the day, whether we project, or it projected from another source, it is all projection of mind in sub-astral substance.

Jim: I adhere to the names that were given to me to use until further instruction to the contrary. They have proved highly effective in collecting the attention in the forehead and moving it further inwards. I have not found the need to experiment with other methods. As Spence said, they are of the Master and therefore of the essence of what we are heading towards.

Hi Jim
I must concur with Pooh Bear.

When a dear friend gave me the hope diamond, as a gift from His own heart, I dare not add even the smallest rhinestone. Why infect what is divine with my mind, which is of a much lower region than that of Love?

From the Bible you know that Man was given the authority to name all the creatures, both men and women were given that authority. But no one dare name God.

To pooh bear,...I understand. But to me, it seems strange that our Philosophy is called Radhasoami, and we greet each other with folded hands with the Salute, ,” Radhasoami.”

Why do we do that, if we do not use the Name?

Have you ever read the Soami Bagh Books? If so, all of their Gurus present strong arguments.

It has been said here, and by other RSSBers that Jaimal parted company with the Parent Agra group because he refused to use that Name. But he MUST have been using that Name either alone, or in addition to the Sikh Panch Nam when he was initiating at the early Dera as a Satellite Branch for Swamiji.

I think MONEY was the reason he rebelled, and parted company with them, when they wanted the list of names of all of his Initiates, and is when they started haggling, up to the time when they said he was keeping several young Gals with him, and accused him of Hanky Panky.

Once he refused to turn over the list to them, he may have quit using Radhasoami Name, but if so, why did Sawan Singh refuse to incorporated Radhasoami Name when he was asking to be initiated by Jamail Singh? He either caved in and accepted the Name, or must didn’t give it to those he later initiated.

Any way, I don’t think its any big deal. To me, the Words are not Abra Cadabra. Sawan gave different words to the Moslems than he gave to the Sikhs.

The Simran is not White Majic. It is used as the tool to occupy the monkey mind from running out doing repetition on all of the ofher wordly thoughts, until the Star Gate appears, i.e. the Port Hole, or Tenth Door opening thru the Third Eye.

Hi Jim
When a woman says "I do" to her husband at the marriage ceremony, those two words have an authority and a power that comes deep from within that woman. Never before or after do the words "I" and "do" have any meaning or power that comes close.

The white magic is from within you. But if you do not honor your own promise, then is there even a marriage in your heart?

Jim let me put this another way.
If you cannot hold your Master's command as sacred, you will not be able to use Simran for the purpose of controlling the mind. You haven't given those words power greater than your mind, hence they will not be able to help control and focus the mind.

All that is in you, your own subconscious.

Jen said earlier why give your power to anyone else? But if you do not hold to your own promise as sacred, then lower mind with all its doubts has now stolen all the power of your own subconscious higher mind.

Spencer asks Jim,...”The white magic is from within you. But if you do not honor your own promise, then is there even a marriage in your heart? ”

Jim answers,...: I have never been a Fundamentalist. I improvise, as I move forword, ( or backwards) and let my conscious ( Inner Master ) pull my chain.

Truthfully, we all started with good intentions, when we took the Vows, but we took those Vows expecting only by Faith, that we would receive the promises.

But after not receiving those promises after a year or so, then after 5 years, 10 years, 20-30 years, still not receiving what we imagined we would receive, we improvise and comprimse along the way. Some a little, some a lot, many quit altogether, as proven in this Church,

But I bet, very few, if any, keep 100% of the Vows promised at initiation after two years!

If there is any one reading here, that lasted a full two years, keeping the Vows 100%, then please share your Wisdom with us.

I know the three volumes almost by heart

I am humbled... the incident was probably pre-1942 so
wasn't there. I'm sure I have seen it elsewhere in Sant
Mat literature however.

Child-horror stories
giving a complete false idea of RSSB powers

I'm not sure what you mean by "Child-horror"? Or
why you feel the power of Shabd is limited.

Ishwar Puri relates the incident here:


Hi Jim
The issue is the recognition of our failings. When we failed to get results did we blame the path? Or look for ways to improve our own approach?

When the chemist didn't get the results he read about in the journals, did he claim it was wrong and spend his life trying to come up with a different formula?

Or did he scrutinize his own equipment and method?

And seeing he had not complied with the exact formula, than tried harder to do so, and seeing incremental results, realized it was his own method, the tools and cleanliness of his lab, his very control over the conditions that was at issue.

With each fall, Jim, I took the above approach, and now my faith, proven by my failures and renewed efforts, is stronger than ever. Because experience doing it wrong, then right over and over has proven this so.

I did fall, many times. But I got up one more time.

So just keep working at getting to your promise. Take your life, and the next doing so. It will be the most efficient way beyond Brahm, even par Brahm.

No one gets into the Lord 's house rewriting the Lord' s instructions. Only the Lord gets to do that.

And Him, one more point.
I received the Grace directly, not because of my success.

It was in the middle of tremendous and visible public humiliation from my own actions, and my repentance, they Master came to me.

My shame, He forgave. So now, of course, I never want to leave His gaze.

I became a child, and a fool. But I gained immensely. His love is far more valuable than my judgment about anything.

I know the three volumes almost by heart

Ah, ha! I withdraw my concurrence. Although Bibi Rakhi is not
mentioned by name, the incident description clearly suggests
it is there.

See "With the Three Masters, Vol 2", entry 1st July 1945
(page 72, last paragraph):

Huzur Maharji said think there is no such thing as hell and

I tried to make the well known point that any army of creepy spirits even when they fill a whole galaxy
, compared with a Saint
they are together so much less than a virus on the left leg of the flee on your shoe.

This seems exaggeration but it is the basis of the Path
You MUST believe it and not believe what you described

Further to involve and allow these thoughts, . . . .
Gurinder said recently :
Stop making videos all the time, . . .
Try to listen 90 % of meditation time to the sweet sound, which makes sense

Even when you see that above army coming to you

They will shrink as snow flocks in Agust Salt Lake City


I was once a murderer and you cannot beat me there, . .
these silly morons missed the train you took and are proud of it and their ego
little bit like some

Hi 777,

Your post is a bit cryptic. Were you commenting re: Bibi Rakhi

You end with this... which if I remember correctly mirrors one
about Nina v. Stauffenberg at the train station in an earlier

I was once a murderer and you cannot beat me there, . .
these silly morons missed the train you took and are proud
of it and their ego little bit like some

Who missed the Train??

“Train of love's a coming big black wheels a humming
People waiting at the station happy hearts a drumming
Trainman tell me maybe ain't you got my baby
Ever so often everybody's baby gets the urge to roam
But everybody's baby but mine's coming home
Now stop your whistle blowing 'cause I've got ways of knowing
Your bringing other people's lovers but my own keeps going
Train of love this evening when she's not gone she's leaving
Ever so often everybody's baby gets the urge to roam
But everybody's baby but mine's coming home
Train of love now hasting sweet hearts standing waiting
Here and there and everywhere there gonna be embracing
Trainman tell me maybe ain't you got my baby
Ever so often everybody's baby gets the urge to roam
But everybody's baby but mine's coming home
Train of loves a leaving, leaving my heart grieving
But early and late I'll set and wait because I'm still believing
We'll walk away together though' I may wait forever
Ever so often everybody's baby gets the urge to roam
But everybody's baby but mine's coming home”
Songwriters: Johnny Cash

Good catch Dungeness
Good feel Jim

Mix these two but first listen the Beatles "She is leaving home" :

Rarely I heard so fine tuned the panic, detresse, the pain, the attachment, the horror

Missing the train of Love in my feels is to have found the base of all Loves
the sweet Sound , generated by 5 words, . . generated by the SatGuru

Wherein the leaving daughter copied something triggering her parents tears ?
It is a tiny copy of this massive train we can take or miss

If you take it , . . even you know the daughter is safe ( parent's Love _wise )

This applies to all happenings in life
Imagine you fall in Love Jim, this evening ( yes I know it will not happen) , . . this evening
or the day before yesterday,
and you can never have her ! - She is 40 years younger . . .

Imagine the pain

Now dive in the Sound , In the SatGuru, in the words
and wow , what will happen

I can't be more clear

It applies to every situ in Life you were born for

Don't miss the train exers
after all this church_stuff , try to catch what you yet can
Listen the song again


No, I was in India a kind of Head of Blackwater for the english invaders
I used to place 'terrorists' before a canon , next shooting

Then a certain Seth Shiv made met my then sister ( now my wife )

the rest I explained here some years ago

HE said : You know your hell bounding; . . . I propose a more profitable deal


To 777,........
Love is the strongest attraction for all of us, but “Some One” must love “Us” in order to FEEL that strong mesmerizing, hypnautic heart expansion. Love is FELT in the heart, not in the head. Love is blind, and love blinds all who are taken prisoner of its Rays.

But,.......Love Proves Duality exists. Other wise, one has to love one’s self, and that doesn’t happen.

In Duality, we experience Love, ( if we are lucky) in many different forms.

For me, the very first time I laid eyes on my Wife, my heart exploded? Bells rang, Lighting Bolts flooded my eyes, and I lost all other former attractions for other females I had ever dated. In fact, I was engaged to be married to another, and broke up with her immediately! A year later, I eloped with my present Wife, and my Fate was cast! Daugher, Son, Bills, Work, Mortgage, binding me to the blindnest of love, and keeping me in the prison of Marriage. As I said prior, “ Love starts with a big swelling around the heart, ( and other locations......!! ) and ends sooner or later with a big pain in the Butt.” But, it appears, all love in Duality ends, with impermanence, but what then?

Fraternity, Family, Nationality, Religeon, all contain various Rays of love. Some of us experience some of it, many experience none of it.

Rejection is the most difficult emotion to accept in Duality. Divorces, Wars, torture, are end results of rejections.

The Bible states,...” We love Him, becuase He first loved us.” 😍❤️😇

Continuing about Love,.......
Every one has heard about it, but few have ever really understood how it feels.
777 gives the example of falling in love with some one 40 years younger, but you can’t have her. You might be able to “have her”, if you have enough money and position. (Trump, or Huff, ) the Playboy Founder that had his Harem of Bunnies. Imagine when he had so many beautiful Bunnies, he could no longer buy enough Karets to attract them and his carrot withered away with age, and he died. Were his desires fulfilled?

What is real sad is, falling in love , and loosing your love to another, watching it happen, knowing that some other will have your love!

As I said, rejection is more bitter than never falling in love.

Imagine how it feels to be rejected by a Master after applying for Initiation, after falling in love, as some Posters here have experienced. Of course, they all rationalize the possible reasons for rejection, but the scar of rejection will never heal.

Now reverse the situation, .(...Exers ), and consider how your Master first loved you, enough to accept you as a Desciple, but now, you have rejected his love.

What is this 'Love' you people are talking about. There are so many versions, for example I fell in love when I was a teenager, totally intoxicated and devoted and overcome with this emotion called 'love' in every moment of my life. And then of course he was unfaithful and that was when I woke up. I eventually found the man who became my husband, a lovely decent satsangi fellow and that was a different kind of love.

I imagine this intoxicating kind of love that people feel for the Master is similar to how I felt when I was young and totally insecure and its a kind of needy type of love when we give away our 'self' to another. Imagine how the poor and desperate 'low caste' Indians feel, of course they are going to fall in love with this kind gentleman who is going to save them and help them in their lives.

I don't think I fell in love with the Master, it was just that needy kind of wanting to escape this world and being looked after by another and now I don't believe in it because I think its all fake. These gurus play on the insecurities of people. I think that maybe those people who are totally engrossed in their love for the Master are actually projecting their own inner soul onto another.

My strongest love has been for my children. I think thats the best kind of love because its about caring and is totally unselfish. I don't believe that the Master first loved me. He didn't even know me, like I don't know him. Its imagination, we believe in what we want to believe in.

Jen writes,,,,,”Imagine how the poor and desperate 'low caste' Indians feel, of course they are going to fall in love with this kind gentleman who is going to save them and help them in their lives.”

Me: Sitting in the front almost in front of the Guru at the Dera last Oct., I also could not help thinking similar thoughts, when I looked back at the throngs of admiring young, old, male and female faces, seperated on each side, mesmerized by Gurinder Singh’s face on the huge Moniters, 10 x 12 feet, estimated. Every slight blink of his eye, or facial gesture was iluminated, including him caressing his beard and pulling his moustach out of his mouth. The Isles were so long, I could not even see the rear of the rows of people sitting on mats. I do imagine how the young feel. They have not yet experienced life, love, family, travel, or even 10% of the experiences I had experienced before I came to tne path at age 45.

Its mind numbing to even consider weather the Path might be all a trick of the mind. But if it is, I had 45 years first, whereas the young 25 year olds have not even found out who has Truth yet. They only respond to what others who have gone before them say, usually, their family and friends, who are thier Social retreat.

Hi Jen

You wrote

"What is this 'Love' you people are talking about?"

And then you proceed to describe your own experience of love in various forms, and to evaluate each of those, projecting the lesser form, emphatuation, upon Satsangis.

Consider the possibility that there are also higher forms that you have not yet experienced.

If that is remotely possible, then how can we be so sure to project our limitations upon others?

It's natural to do so. But, when the light of dawn arrives, everything looks quite different.

Love of children may not be selfless.

Selfless isn't simply serving others but more, when we don't think of ourselves at all.

If love of children were truly selfless we would experience that for all children. And our life would be spent on serving any child in need with equal vigor. Every room would have a foster child, or an adopted child if that love had only to do with the child and not the fact that it was "My" child.

We would do as Jesus said, and invite the disabled and the destitute even to our parties, If our love had nothing to do with "Me", and "Mine".

But because "I" truly love "My" children, then "I" am still at the center of that. Even if I say it is only as a duty that I serve them.

But in all cases, the awakening to the idea that I am neither the smartest nor the most loving is the first step to acknowledging there may be more going on. And that higher ethic then becomes a worthy goal to strive for.

Progress to become what you are not yet isn't weakness. It's strength.

The caterpillar who dreams of becoming a butterfly isn't mistaken, weak or foolish. They dream as they were meant to. Their dream is the highest ethic.

Hi Jim

You wrote
"Its mind numbing to even consider weather the Path might be all a trick of the mind."

If only anything were "mind numbing" that would actually be a good thing.

If we can sit and quiet our mind, then we generally think more clearly.

Although it isn't numb. Then, it is simply still, and nimble, balanced and attentive.

So many things become clear when we put aside our own thinking and take an honest and dispassionate look.

Then questions are answered.

And we don't have to conjecture or wonder.

Hi Jen

You wrote

"What is this 'Love' you people are talking about."

Can it be something outside your experience?

Can love ever be something more than we are? Larger, purer?

Or must it always be tainted and flawed?

The caterpillar who dreams of becoming a butterfly may be ignorant. They may have no idea why they dream this way. But it's the right dream. It's the truth. It's their destiny. It's a good dream grounded in reality even if that caterpillar and its entire caterpillar family has no idea how.

Hi Jen!

You ask

"What is this 'Love' you people are talking about"

The caterpillar dreams of becoming a butterfly. Every one of its caterpillar friends says 'your delusional.'

One of them experiences that love, though they may have no idea how or why. The others, well, how do you explain it to them?

Hi Jim!

You wrote:
"Imagine how it feels to be rejected by a Master after applying for Initiation, after falling in love, as some Posters here have experienced. Of course, they all rationalize the possible reasons for rejection, but the scar of rejection will never heal."

1. No one is rejected. All are accepted. But the process takes several lives.
2. No one even thinks of God without God's permission and His hand.
3. The brave, fearless and faithful look upon temporary setbacks as a beautiful lesson, and that is a life success skill in all endeavors.
4. Everything painful isn't bad. Everything pleasant isn't good.
5. If you are not ready for that beautiful young lover, to bring them into your home, to spend your days gazing at their beautiful form, and working to make them a home, to provide for them, then you waste their time and yours.
6. It is a poor attitude, a prideful attitude that then blames the innocent young lover.
7. God is always the innocent young lover.

Jen writes: "Jen writes,,,,,”Imagine how the poor and desperate 'low caste' Indians feel, of course they are going to fall in love with this kind gentleman who is going to save them and help them in their lives.”"

Yes, that's how it works.
As for those "poor and desperate 'low caste' indians".... I suggest that they may actually be as smart as you and I...What a thought!

Us white Europeans have a little growing up to do.

Jen writes,,,,,”Imagine how the poor and desperate 'low caste' Indians feel, of course they are going to fall in love with this kind gentleman who is going to save them and help them in their lives.”

I can't tell if they are the victims of a false guru, or the white Europeans (who judge them as inferior and ignorant) of the tyrant in their own subconscious.

My strongest love has been for my children. I think thats the best kind of love because its about caring and is totally unselfish.

Great Master echoed that sentiment about unselfish love.

There's also a story in mystic literature though about a villager who dotes
on her granddaughter until a buffalo whose head is stuck in a feed can
wanders into her house at dusk. The granny is frightened and, mistaking
the animal for the "Angel of Death", screams "No! Not me, you must be
looking for my granddaughter."

But, even if love is rarely genuine, I think we all know deep down it exists.
We crave it and, without it, we wither and die. I think in the beginning it
has to come through friendship. We also crave that and it's a precursor.
I don't believe it's neediness at all. It takes the greatest strength and
perseverance to follow a mystic discipline for instance - to repeat simran
for years. Maybe we don't understand "love and devotion" but we can
repeat simran or recall an image through dhyan. And even if that's lost
for a moment, we can still feel we have a friend inside. Because, if we
don't have one, we're truly lost until one is found.

When I came to The Christian Christ,......I was invited to “ Come just as You are, with out one plea......”

When I came to tne Sant Mat Christ, I couldn’t come until I,......
1) became a Vegetarian
2) quit drinking alcohol
3) quit smoking Weed
4) quit using Drugs
5) quit sex unless I was legally married,....
6) If married, sex only for procreation, not lust
7) had to promise to meditate 2-1/2 hours a day.
8) had to attend Satsang
9) had to read a list of RSSB Books

Of course, I could have lied about accepting all the above, as no one checked or monitered me. But I was told by Satsangis that Master had X- Ray Vision, and knew every thing about me, so if I cheated, he would know it, and with hold his Radiant Form from appearing to me.

I never read labels when I ate in Restaurants or interrogated the Waitresses to ask the Chefs if there was any on the Contraband ingredients in the cakes or pastries.

Of course, I always had a guilty conscious of coming up short, and I figured that was why Charan never showed up inside for 26 years. I tried additional time in Meditation, and read more books, but it didn’t help. There certainly must have been too many eggs in some of those pasteries I ate!

So, I wonder if Chirst only catches and accepts clean souls, or does he catch them , and then clean them up himself , after he accepts them?

Charan’s normal answer would be,,,,”Brother, ask Him when you see Him.”

Real progress happens when you can just sit in the darkness without needing to see anything or anyone, but in an overwhelming sense of gratitude feel His presence, and then in time hear the divine music and truly see your Master.

Stages, acceptance. Once you accept where you are, you can enjoy being there. Then there is no where else to be. Then you won't want to be anywhere without your Master.

So progress begins with acceptance, and even enjoyment that you are exactly where Christ has personally placed you.

Then you really start seeing real things. Because they are His gifts, not your desire.

Hi Dungeness,

Nice comment about love, devotion and friendship. You say its not neediness but takes strength and perseverance to follow a mystic discipline. I'm pondering on that now.

I suppose if we were already filled with love then we would be a saintlike person anyway and not needing to follow a mystic discipline, and so, the perseverance is about stubbornly following some mystical path until we are filled with love. Yikes.

Hi Jen

You wrote
"I suppose if we were already filled with love then we would be a saintlike person anyway and not needing to follow a mystic discipline, and so, the perseverance is about stubbornly following some mystical path until we are filled with love. Yikes."

A sadu in college taught me a very good lesson that has proven true.

When studying becomes boring, stifling, and the last thing you want to do is read the next sentence, that is when learning actually begins.

Until you push through, even barely understanding what you are reading, crawling through one word at a time, and can, even for a few moments, sustain effort, no real learning happens. And when that 'aha! ' moment happens, it is fantastic.

That is when my GPA went from 3.5 to 4.0.

Same in meditation. Same in any profession. Love only gives you the reason to do it. But whatever the reason progress always seems to require substantial perseverance and all the effort, however painful, behind it.

Who goes to a gym just to meander abour?

Hi guys, this is what I resonate with...

There was something formless and perfect
Before the Universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the Universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.
-Lao Tzu

JIM How You cab writes this after so many years of giving guidance
"""What is real sad is, falling in love , and loosing your love to another, watching it happen, knowing that some other will have your love!

This is about attachment, not Love


I meant a Love that only wants to give, . . no(t) need(s) to receive, . . Nothing at ALL
It happens in very simple forms

I tried to make clear that you never need to lose such Love, You just can't
because You cannot lose it

It can only increase

Even if the beloved kills you or worse
it doesn't matter

It’s rssb love, the target
_Result of the great SSS COMBI

Shabd/Sound Simran Saint


Hi Jen!

Love the Tao

The name to which mankind may hold
Is not the eternal way.
Eternal truths cannot be told
In what men write or say.

The name that may be named by man
Is not the eternal name
That was before the world began
Or human language came.

In that the namable took root,
The tree of fire and force,
Which, having blossomed and borne fruit,
Returns then to its source.

Who warms his body at that fire,
Sees nothing but its smoke;
But he who puts aside desire,
The flame’s self may invoke.

The Tao of LeoTse

Find the eternal Name!

Hi Jim!

You wrote:

"So, I wonder if Chirst only catches and accepts clean souls, or does he catch them , and then clean them up himself , after he accepts them?"

Paul gives us the answer:

"5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

Romans 5-12

"For if you...."

IF, not a given, contingent on YOU doing something.,,

"live according to the flesh, you will die."

How you choose to live. Your choice. No one else's responsibility.

"But if by the Spirit you .."

You that's not Master, Jesus or anyone else. It's YOU.

"By the Spirit"

You must use the Spirit you were given. And so you must be IN that Spirit, familiar with that Spirit, able to understand and USE that Spirit.

No one else's job but yours.

"Put to death the misdeeds of the body"

Can't be done by your will, except that you use that Spirit. It's the only means.

But the job to do it is YOURs....burning karma, burning sinchit, using the Spirit.

IF you actually have conscious access to the Spirit.

Forget faces and people in other places, here or elsewhere (esp the Astral)...

You can be a tourist anywhere on this earth outside or inside, but if instead you use the Spirit to put to death the misdeeds of the body, then...

"You will live."

JIm...that was Romans 8:5-12

Spence, I like your latest comment...

"You that's not Master, Jesus or anyone else. It's YOU.

"By the Spirit"

You must use the Spirit you were given. And so you must be IN that Spirit, familiar with that Spirit, able to understand and USE that Spirit.

No one else's job but yours."

Going to remind myself to practice focussing on the inner spirit and not the ego self, every moment of the day! Quite a challenge but a worthwhile pursuit imo.

Jen, we can never escape Spirit no more than fish can escape water.





Hi Jim,

I like and agree with "Love = level of vibrational existence".

I live a very quiet life and I like the mindfulness practice, being in the moment and practising awareness, kinda feeling one's inner being observing life in this body. Cheers bro :)

Hi Jen!


For what ever its worth, ( most likely, not much here), these few Bible Verses, from a copy left in the night stand of my hotel room, in Valley Forge, PA., April, 1977, is what I read, that opened me up, to receive the first powerful Initiation I experienced in this life. I read it, my heart opened, I fell on my knees, and asked God to take all of my guilt, forgive me for all of my past sins, and to send Christ in to my heart and to take over my life. Looking back, it really was a powerful Spiritual event. I really changed so completely, that it was as if the old Jim died that day, and the Spirit of Christ walked in. That was the first rung on Jacob’s Ladder. I am still climbing. The bigger the guilt, one carries, the more powerful the Initition effects the receiver of Christ, i really, really, needed Him when I cried!

“Romans 3:22-24 Living Bible (TLB)

21-22 But now God has shown us a different way to heaven[a]—not by “being good enough” and trying to keep his laws, but by a new way (though not new, really, for the Scriptures told about it long ago). Now God says he will accept and acquit us—declare us “not guilty”—if we trust Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, by coming to Christ, no matter who we are or what we have been like. 23 Yes, all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious ideal; 24 yet now God declares us “not guilty” of offending him if we trust in Jesus Christ, who in his kindness freely takes away our sins.”


Instead of scripturing
mixed with personal vulgarities

seek the Sweet Sound
as tiny as it might seem first effort

It will be more than all ever written in this galaxy


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