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March 28, 2018


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To Arjuna,....I thought I saw one of your recent posts closing signed “ Vijay” was I mstaken? In fact, I almst responded that one of my good friend’s first Name is Vijay, who I worked with 15 years ago, and we are still in contact as Facebook friends,

I thought Arjuna was your Avatar. Please correct me if I misunderstood.

As for the Haynes Park accident, it is sad obviously. Its amazing more accidents haven’t happened with death occurring in some of the many RSSB Facilities, considering all of the free labor by untrained and unsupervised personel is done at all the different Sangats.

I would imagine Gurinder must have addressed the family of the deceased , but the cover up is what’s in question. Who was the accident being covered up from? Gurinder, or the U.K. Govt. Authorities?

RSSB was fined a very large Sum, after being found guilty in Court, I read some where. Many Seva Donation boxes will need to be filled to runnng over to pay the fine.

Was it a cover up?
They fixed the problem, as soon as it came to their attention. They pleaded guilty without contest.

But haters gotta hate.

Dungeness, why are you posting your comment 2 and even 3 times, gotta get your compute r fixed

Why do you assume it's my computer... no, I'm only posting it once.
It may be browser related so I'm ditching Chrome temporarily.

Typepad however should fix its "feature" wherever the blame falls.
It'd be easy to digitally digest posts and toss out duplicates.

Dungeness has a studdering handicap. Either that, of she/he hiccups the second the “send” icon is pressed on the Device it is sent from. Ironically, two long time posters posting at RSS , both usiing pseudo Avatars, ( very possibly the same poster using two different Avatars ) who have been hiding in their RAT holes for years and years at RSS, also have had their posts duplicated, but mostly triplicated the last 6 months to a year. So the Stuttering problem is caused by tne Device the post is sent from, by most likely, the same RAT, ........not the problem of this site or at Yahoo. I have all posts from RSS co g to y Yahoo Email , and triple posts from this poster are in my msil box e ery time . I now have them directed to my Spam file.

Testing 4/10/2018....

@ Jim brother - I totally agree with your post - but I hate seeing anyone get hurt or killed. Life is unfair.

Yes I did sign it Vijay as that is my middle name.



Hi Jim
Yes there has been the appearance of racism in Madame Blavatsky and her disciple, Alice Baley's, writings.

They made comments about the different "races", but at the same time acknowledged the primacy of the soul over the containers.

Today at recognize this as just a shorthand people used back then, innocent, but reflective of culturally imprinted racism. The most innocent comments, made in ignorance, can lead to violence and harm. They key guide to helping us avoid repeating that mistake is the Golden Rule.... Would I like that said about me?

I'm Jewish by birth the way, but an anti - zionist in orientation. The true Zoom is that Holy City atop that Holy Mountain that traditionally has been called the New Israel in the Bible, but which we know to be Sach Kand, the holy mountain where even the animals are all vegetarian, and where the lion lay with the lamb.

Oops spell check... The true Zion..... But the true Zoom is Master's sense of humor, not mine...


I apologize if you felt I smeared you as a racist. However, the
gratuitous mention of Jews in citing Lane's site and then again
in remarking on Blatsky in the next sentence were reminiscent
of racist tropes. To me anyway...

I respect your desire to see the real identities of posters too.
But after a career in software and seeing the scale of data
mining and assaults on privacy, I choose to remain anonymous.

As I mentioned, I think the words we use and attitudes we reveal
in our posts speak for themselves.

To Dungeness, ....apology accepted. I have quite a few good Jewish friends as Facebook friends. But I don’t hold them any dearer than my Indian, Filipino, African, British, Aussie, Croation, Swedish, Danish, French, Scotish, Irish, Natve Ametcan Indian, Mexican, Brazilian, Columbian, Vietnamese, Canadian, and many other mxed Race friends on my Facebook friends list. In fact, I am 1/4 Micmac Canadian Indian , 1/4 French, 1/4 Scot, and 1/4 English. I have worked in the trenches in many Industrial factories with just about every Race on the planet, as well as having served in the USAF with them. I guarantee, ANY Recruit in ANY Military Boot Camp sheds every last trace of Racism carried there before they leave, and it follows thru life. In fact, as far as Jews are concerned, since I mentioned Lane’s site, there are some Jews posting there who are admitted Atheists who reveal their real Names, and wear their Jewishness on there sleeves. I could, and would, even name names,....but you have to reveal yours first! I read some of your past posts, and can’t really recognise your style of writting posted at RSS. So, if you do post over there using another pseudo Avatar, you do an expert job of conceiling your identity. Actually, I think you are a very great writer, but other than your comments about RSSB and metaphysical comments, nothing else grabs my interests. But after posting at RSS off and on for years when it was an absolute Fight Club with Zero moderation and Zero rules,.....well, I, with others, took some pretty bad beatngs. So, forgive my Battle stress and fight or flight impulses from over there.

To Arjuna,.....Thanks Arjuna Vijay Dev. Nice to know I have at least one RSSB Brother that is a Soldier watching my back that also isn’t a Fundamentalist Sant Mat Zombie. Just keep the Baby, and dscard the dirty bath water. If you keep meditating, and seeking your own Master within, you already possess the Bullets , and no longer need the Gun. The Gun was fired the very moment you asked to be initiated, and the Bullets hit your target when you were initiated. Your wounds will never heal! Your Sach Khand bound! No turning back.

To Spencer,.....I have other Jewish friends that are not Zionists as well. In fact, Dr. Richard Ruquest, Ph.D. , who I introduced to Sant Mat is one. I have other Anonymous ones as well, one an Elder Brother Charan Initiate living in Israel right now , who is one of my Facebook friends.

As far as HPB is concerned, regardless of her comments about Jews, she has contributed much to Sant Mat even, as she was rumored to have even visted the Agra Parent Soami Bagh group during her years in India. If you don’t belive me, Google and read her little Book, “ The Voice of Silence” , which can be found as a free pdf if you search. She surely must have conversed with a Sant Mat person in her travels.

Jim Sutherland

@ Jim - that is the cooliest thing I have ever had anyone say about me. I’d watch your back anyway!

I hate bullshit and all I wanted in my
Life was truth.

Weird isn’t it - what wats one has to go through to get at truth.

I want to say something as you have the bandwidth to understand this even more than I ever could. I posted that bbc link about Haynes not as a hater more so that people just don’t care. We should all watch each other’s back. That’s being human. Forget all the rest and care.

I just hope Gurinder is reading this - you start a movement when you claim to know Him. It’s very unfair to kick the ones who seek love and knowledge whilst keeps my A holes near you under the guise that they are more ill than moi. That’s a crock of shit. You see the issue is that you lose the good ones!

@ back at Jim - speak soon Captain and here is to journey for the truth and God.

Lol let me rewrite the statement above below again:

I meant “the” A holes and not “my”.

Peace out

Hi Jim

You wrote

"she has contributed much to Sant Mat even"

I don't think so.
Hidden Masters living in Himalayan caves communicating through the spirit to disciples they never met?
I don't buy it.

If anything Blavatsky's obsession with the racial development of the Aryans as a "root race" influenced Adolph Hitler who then insisted Jews were not one of the "root race". Her descriptions of the development of the race through specialized breeding became Eugenics to Adolph Hitler.

Something that started as largely innocent, imaginative, well intended and only mildly fraudulent communicated something unintended. If one person can invent a history and future for humanity, claiming divine inspiration, so can another.

Hi Spencer,....I don’t want to get in to any more Hitler/Jews debates. It went on for months at Radhasoami studies. It didn't take long for the Jews, many of them Sant Mat Initiates, to come out to try and Silence ANY dscussion about WWII and the accuracy of is taught in the History books.They cursed him, used fowl language against him, and called him many terrible names. If you are really interested in that subject, one of our Brother Charan Brothers, discussing Revision History of the Holocaust, was brutally disrespected, slandered, and finally blocked from posting there altogether. He always posted as mysticbumwipe, should you be interested in running a search on RSS to read the debates. He was outnumbered, but never convinced he was wrong. I don’t want to discuss the issue again, other than to say, some one once asked Bumwipe why he used that Avatar. Dome one who knew Bumwipe personally, confessed that he had spent time in Calcutta working in Hospice with the dying in Mother Theresa’s Mission, and cleaning butts from soiled diapers by dying people was a daily chore.
Those chores were what formd his Avatar at RSS.

Hi Jim
Each of us has our own history.
HPB doesn't appeal to me.

Hitler is a controversial figure. And if most of your relatives had been murdered as the result of Hitler's aggresion you would be understandably intolerant to ignorance.

If radio waves can transmit wireless internet, Why can't Himalayan masters communicate with people by intuitive divine inspiration ???

Vinny writes,...”If radio waves can transmit wireless internet, Why can't Himalayan masters communicate with people by intuitive divine inspiration ???”

Me: Bingo!! Radiant Form Spirits in action. Even thoughts have enought material content to travel accross Continents hitting their targets. Remote Viewing is one example.

Thoughts sent by people specifically to others do not necessarily need a physical or Astral body to be seen by who ever the message is directed at.

I will share this personal story as an example, that will always remain one of my little miracles of Synchronicity that keeps my Faith alive.

I have an Uncle ( who is still alive in his mid 80s ) who is an Ordained Baptist Minister. As long as I remember, from Childhood, he has always been a Bible Thumping Preacher. I avoided him like a Plague, as I was a Catholic who believed only Catholics had tickets to Heaven ( until I entered Boot Camp in the Air Force at 17!! ) then, I knrw we were ALL going to Hell.

I rarely seen or heard from that Uncle again after age 15, and only heard about him from my father, who was also a Catholic who avoided his Brother because he didn’t want to get Bible Thumped. Also, my uncle workd in Immigration for the U.S. Govt. for his day Job, so he lived 1000 miles away.

Fast forward to 1977, when I was age 35. I had my Christian “ Born Again” Experience while alone in a Hotel Room in PA., and a month later, made arrangements to be Baptised at a local Church in Conn. where I was living at that time. ( that was 41 years ago, so many changes of beliefs since then)

My Parents lived 600 miles away, and I only visited them once a year with my wife and two children. But I did write them a letter every couple of weeks and talk to them on the phone once a month,

I began thinking about my Baptist Minister Uncle, and was desiring to share my Christian Born Agsin Experience with him, but I had lost contact with him years ago and didn’t know where he lived.

I wanted to write him a letter to share my Experience wiith him, but never had his Address.so, I wrote a letter to my Father asking him to send me the Address of my Uncle if he knew it. I lived in a Rural country area where our private Mail Boxes were at the Street in front of our houses, where the Mail Carriers delivered our Mail each day and picked up out going Mail.

OK. Here it comes!!

I put my letter to my Father in my Mail Box asking for my Uncle’s Address. An hour later, the Mail Carrier came, took my letter, and delivered my new Mail.

I went to get my new Mail, brought it in the house, and in the bundle of mail, there was a letter from my Baptist Uncle!!!

I opened the letter as my heart was thumping, and read it. He said he and my Aunt were going to be in my area for a meeting, and he asked if he could visit me and take my wife and I out to dinner. He gave me the Date, and guess what? The date was the day before I was scheduled to get Baptised in Church!

I quickly telephoned my Uncle, and almost choked out my Born Again story. I invited him to stay at my house the night before my Baptism, and attend the event with me. He accepted, of course, and said to ask the Minister who was to Baptise me if my Uncle could participate. I did, and to make a long story short, my Uncle ended up baptising me in the Church Baptisimal in front of the Congregation that Sunday, and I was the only one Baptised that day! Plus, that Church was not even a Baptist Church. It was an Adventist Church.

So, these little miricles don’t only happen among Radhasoami Satsangis. They happen every day, as thoughts materialize, and spirits visit as Messengers all doing their appointed Missions in the Spirt Planes from Pind to Radhasoami .


Correct Jim
even the lowest chakras
can produce


Hi Vinny

Your wrote
"If radio waves can transmit wireless internet, Why can't Himalayan masters communicate with people by intuitive divine inspiration ???"

Yes it can happen, but unlikely for a couple of reasons :
1. If a true Master wishes to convey a message or impart a teaching they use the natural method, live contact. No real Master hides from anyone.
2. Internal inspiration always comes through the filter of mind and desire, and mostly that's our imagination.
3.to help us learn to use those internal instruments of perception requires both, so that we lean to see beyond imagination and conditioning with the unassailable fact of our a Master's words.
3.the fact that so many people don't want live correction and feedback is precisely why they prefer only "inner" contact, but that also leaves imagination unbridled.
4. Most of what we believe to be internal truth, without any outer correction from a living, physical Master, is imagination and invention.

@ Spencer - off course you can influence others with out contact.

Lol you are funny sometimes


You say "so that we learn to see beyond imagination and conditioning with the unassailable fact of our a Master's words" and "Most of what we believe to be internal truth, without any outer correction from a living, physical Master, is imagination and invention".

Sounds like programming to me. What you believe in, such as the power of a 'Master' will produce those inner experiences. How do you know its not imagination and invention.

I have had strange experiences with telepathy, which came so naturally it amazed me, that I can converse with other beings so easily. Still today do not know who they were and why they made contact. I do think that it could be imagination, but why would I imagine a series of events which totally surprised me. I was told some very strange things that I would not have thought possible. The most interesting part was that I would one day meet my 'replicas', not a word I would use.

I asked 'what about the Master?' and there was just a blank silent reaction. So for me, this is a very strange world and we really don't know whats going on behind the scenes. I think we have experiences when astral travelling and our memories are then wiped.

Life to me, just seems like a game. We have our individual programs running in our brain and life is illusionary and we probably will only find out the truth after death, and hopefully that will be our own inner truth not something we have learned from others.

Hi Arjuna

You wrote
"off course you can influence others with out contact."

Yes it can be done. Probably more often than we know, but at the base of it the puppet master we fear or glorify is our own self lifetimes ago acting in sheer ignorance. But entirely without our consent today. That's the problem with the past. It just doesn't listen or respond well. It is a terrible slave master and we have no voice in the matter.

And if any other power does so today then it does so without our consent. But is that even possible in a realm of karma?

If we feel we have one jailor it is our own subconscious, and our sense that we are our own liberators, or that some incorporeal guardian angel or spirit guide or hidden master is our salvation, these are the masks of Thanatos, our own dark subconscious.

My point was just that I don't believe that a true Master works that way without some physical corroboration through their presence.

I don't think they invade our personal space without our consent and even our earnest and repeated request, often over many decades if not lifetimes. Which makes them entirely different from Joseph Smith, Djwal Khul, Ruby Qanz and the rest. As far as I'm concerned these are entirely imaginary creations, the crayon drawings of people who have no idea of the work and actual dynamics involved in moving past mind to actual direct witness of reality. And those who have had such experience of reality then are confronted and befriend such inner demons and all progress stops in this lifetime. The flesh is no good for anything and at that point awaits the compost heap and must wait for another year altogether to make any more progress.

And if not, they are worse than imaginary, violators of our right to privacy and self determination. But I tend to think that in 99% of the cases it is the former.

Hi Jen!

Please see above.

Spencer, what is a "true" Master? Maybe people are following someone who is pretending to be some kind of saviour or guide and others are following a mythical being called Jesus. Some people believe in extra terrestrials and inter dimensional beings. Maybe there is no god and no devil, call them what you may. These are just beliefs.

Jurgen Ziewe and his multi dimensional experiences, they are interesting but its still his experiences and I don't grasp onto them like they are real. What is really, real, reality? It seems to me that this life is just some kind of game although it seems very real whilst in this physical form here on this planet.

Its all a mystery and I am enjoying the ride. Whatever my mind throws up at me I simply accept as an interesting experience. No need to believe in anything, even karma, it just is what it is.

Hi Jen
You ask
"What is a true Master?"
And then you provide the answer you know..

"Maybe people are following someone who is pretending to be some kind of saviour or guide and others are following a mythical being called Jesus."

In the heart of all that is disappointing, is opportunity.

In the midst of loss of faith, the source of faith.

The very wind that extinguishes a tiny flame, grows a larger flame...
Into an inferno...

Where you see so many fakes, so many copies, there in the midst, the one who knows they are meant for more, is now convinced, with each copy, of the original. And pursues with singular prejudice that.

And the one they dismissed.... The take a closer look, because the original is disguised as a copy.

Spencer, you said you have been listeniing to Ishwar Puri Youtube talks, and have about 2/3 to go? I am wondering if you see many differences from his teachings from Charan and Gurinder’s, considering all 3 of them are Disciples of Sawan Singh.

The way Ishwar is traveling, still at 91 and giving Satsangs all over, I can’t even keep up with his Youtube postings, let alone where he is from one week to the other.

He has been in Davis, California a month ago, with 5 youtube talks, then Newport Beach with another 5, then the recent Bhandar with another 5 not all posted yet, with several in between!!

He said he no longer meditates and has done enough meditation in his life. He mentions 5 minute meditations when he tells his listeners that love and devotion replaces meditation. Do you buy that?

I don’t think any Newbie who is not doing daily deep mediation will ever understand what he is trying to teach, so they won’t believe him or his stories, unless they have experienced what he says about flying in the Astral Realm, and other stuff he says.

Reading books or listening to other’s stories with out meditation and trying to go deeper, and deeper, and deeper, within, will never deliver the place a true seeker is seeing.

How ever, the Conundrum is, as I read some one say, is, we human Seekers are lke Dolls made of salt who dive in to the Ocean looking for the Treasure on the bottom. But we dissolve before we ever reach the bottom with out ever finding the Treasure!

Advaitists think We become that Treasure.

I feel like a Salt Doll listening to Ishwar Puri on Youtube!


So, . . his "initiation" at between 5 / 10 years old

Yes Sawan gave certain children One or Two words to repeat
Nothing above pinda, HE said

Abolishing the true successor

Saying that thoughts give karma , which is terrible and false
( he might have changed this opinion )

But like Brian, . . Lekh Puri's son has a tiny role to play

We all have


Nobody can prove his Mastership
The only (subjective) proof is Sound , Light and Simran in Orgasm above the eyes

Next there are serendipities without an end
Sometimes objective

Our Creator did a Magnificent Job amongst a zillion, ALL far above any IQ



777, .....yes, he said he was initiated at 9 years old. He also said recently, that before he was initiated, he was a Skeptic who didn’t believe the Sant Mat his parents was practicing, and even after initiation, he remained a Skeptic. He said he tried all the other Yoga methods, including PranaYama Kundalini Yogi Bhajun’s techniques. Then, some where along the line, he decided that Technique he got from Sawan Singh at 9 years old was the best. The greatest mystery is when Sawan told him to start initiating for him, to continue the East to West Spiritual axes shift from India to the U.S. All I can say is, we Charan Singh Initiates should be greatful we seized he Widow of Opportunity while it was open!

Hi jim
You asked

"I am wondering if you see many differences from his teachings from Charan and Gurinder’s, considering all 3 of them are Disciples of Sawan Singh."

Nothing of consequence. I think Ishwar is doing a good job. It's a matter of adaptation.

Gurindar is Charan's disciple, and successor, ... Is that what you meant?

We don't earn the bliss. For me meditation is just a necessity to function, and also the most fabulous luxury. It was a gift to me from my Master.

God said "I'll give you three hours a day of personal, intimate attention and love.."

I said "YES"!
It's the deal of the millennium, of all time.

"What's the catch?"

And God answered, "You have to give me all your worries."

It's too good to be true I replied.
But its turned out to be true.
Who knew?

Again Spencer : Wow, . . . Magnificient

and Fun

and Jim , somewhat spiced with the buttt . . °°° Great Path


Ah Yes Arjuna : We both here see Gurinder Tooo
All the time

@ 777 ( I wonder you are)

Well lucky you for seeing Gurinder - He forgot me or never knew who I am.

Not sure I should be answering to an entity who does not reveal it’s name!


He said he no longer meditates and has done enough meditation in his life. He mentions 5 minute meditations when he tells his listeners that love and devotion replaces meditation. Do you buy that?

Hi Jim, Ishwar's said meditation, in its initial stages, is for the
mind. But only love and devotion pull you up. Even simran is discarded
at some point. I believe other RSSB masters echo that exactly.

BTW, Gurinder is a disciple of Charan Singh :)


Saying that thoughts give karma , which is terrible and false

He's explained that every thought and intention initiates a karmic
chain however minor.

To Dungeness,.....
We who post here are all open to admitting if, and when, and by which Master we were initiated. I don’t remember seeing you mention it, if you did.

Are you a Radhasoami Initiate? ( your real name does not need to be disclosed to answer that question. )

Your answer will help me, at least, to know how to respond to your comments, such as, “ Gurinder is Charan’s Desciple. Well I know that, but my comment about him, Charan and Ishwar being all Desciples of Sawan was correct. Actually, ALL Initiates from RSSB and Ruhani lineages are distant Desciples of Sawan Singh.

Have you read “ Spiritual Gems” ?

Reading some of your prior posts, you appear to be some what of a Skeptic. So,........
are you with us Believers, or against us, and with the Atheists and Exers?

I thnk these are all fair questions, would you agree?

Are you a Radhasoami Initiate?
Yes, Long time initiate of Charan Singh.

Have you read “ Spiritual Gems” Yes

"I am wondering if you see many differences from his teachings from Charan and Gurinder’s, considering all 3 of them are Disciples of Sawan Singh."

Here's a short audio tape of Ishwar speaking about
Jagat and Charan Singh:


Hi Dungeness.
Thank you so much for the link!
What a sheer pleasure to hear Ishwar's stories about Jagat Singh and Charan Singh. Miraculous. I could listen to Ishwar all day.

@ Jim - you do appear to read people quite well. I’m impressed - you probably know more about people than you write.

Impressive - you are the only one who was able to give me a solid answer(s).

The rest I used to meet at Haynes - nothing new under the sun there. Bar that they were better than me and I was just an outcast,

God - pardon the pun we need an Edward Snowden moment there lol.

Yours sincerely


To Arjuna,..,I always try to enter the person I am trying to communicate with, before I make any assumptions about where they are having pain. Spiritually, we all should be able to do this. i. e. Walk in the ofher’s shoes or sandals, only after finding out first, if they even have feet to put shoes on!

Being old, and well traveled, also helps. I have traveled to 65 different countries, visiting their cities and Cultures, in the last 6 years since I retired. I leave for Tibet and China in a couple of weeks, and will visit another six new countries in Sept.

I have found that once we remove Politics and religion from where ever I visit, we are pretty much all the same, with same desires, and common human emotions. I am no more special than any other human any where else on the planet. But having served as a Christian Pastor in my 40s, in addtion to my day job, I had the opportunity to counsel many people, and have had a more closer look at how humans love, hate, cheat, fight, kill, steal, rape, become bigots and racists, ....all the while as they were only looking at other’s sins while ignoring their own festering cancers.

I have prayed with many individuals, sick, and dying with cancer, certain they would be healed. Most of them died!

The only two things I have learned in my 76 years, is, that there IS a God, and that I am not Him!

I don’t envy those who either think they are God, or those who think they have found some one else that is.

We are all on the same Journey of souls.

New miracles are happening in this world every second, even as you read this.

Many still have your Name on them, but you must stay alive to receive and witness them. You are the Bull’s Eye for ONLY the Silver Bullets shot at you. Live well, live healthy, live long, and receive every last one of them before you die.


@ Spencer - I read your response and can only say thank you. Words cannot convey the depth of what I read and how it touched me.

I have spent most of my life looking for answers - first in family, and then in friends, places and then in art. I love Leonardo Davinci’s work - I think even Gurinder said “he was a master in his own right”. That he was.

I digress - what I am trying to say I lost my parents whilst very young and did not really have a father figure to help me. I tried finding that at Haynes and realised that most there had families and were successful people but where even more lost than me.

In 2005 Gurinder said at Haynes that the Lord gives you family etc so that you may learn to love. It’s a beautiful statement but it was also insensitive as people without family would be left feeling so alone. I stopped going as his attention was on people who were there to progress in status or where famous in two cases.

Have you seen the original Ben Hur movie where Christ gives Charlton Heston water when he is enslaved and has fallen on to the grounds against the wishes of the Romans? That seen makes me cry as that is how I imagine God in human form to be like to His children. I did not sense that- in fact I sensed coldness and the constant looks of trying to suss me out. Hope you understand what I mean by this. And if anyone states we see people as mirrors - I will walk away as they are bores and A holes who in the vast majority of cases do not understand that some of us just seek affection and love.

You are interesting Jim and in return I think you have nailed it! Please avoid the dotards (word Kim of North Korea) used to describe Trump - as they are only trying to outwit you with mind.

Also I find the talk of sex disgusting - those who talk about it ain’t getting it or have never had it! So why even make references to sex? I heard a lot about that subject in my time with the blessed souls. Isn’t sex the first demon to be conquered before even attempting contact with God?

Hey I could write for ever - think this has helped me in getting things of my chest.

I wish you and all the bloggers on here well.

Dear Brothers & Sisters,
All comparisons to the past masters are futile as living masters keep change the mode of operation keeping in mind the needs of the present times. No matter how great the past masters were, they cannot initiate you and take you back to SachKhand. For those who are looking for someone who can ferry you across the ocean; the greatest master alive at the present moment on this planet is Gurinder Singh. Anyone who raises his consciousness to the thousand petaled lotus would witness his grandeur and would be ready to bow down countless number of times witnessing his greatness. Just for once taste the elixir by witnessing his radiant form. I speak with authority because of the personal experiences and anyone can validate for themselves by vacating the physical body till the eye level during meditation.
Wishing love and happiness!

777 writes,......”and Jim , somewhat spiced with the buttt . . °°° Great Path


Ah Yes Arjuna : We both here see Gurinder Tooo
All the time”

Me: what is the significance of the 777 you use for your Avatar? Does your real Name cause you to be embarrassed about any thing, or are you hiding from the Law, Tax Collectors, or what or from who? Alimony, child support, ??? Bullies?

At the ripe old age of 81, and being a long time Charan Singh Initiate, why are you still hiding behind a Pseudo Avatar? Have you led a Satsangi life style that you are ashamed of? Just wondering, because at 81, I am wondering who, or what you are still hiding from.

By seeng Gurinder Singh inside, as you state, why do you think that makes him any more special than any other disincarnated entities seen in tne Astral Plane that are either out of body dreaming, while asleep and soul traveling, or during meditation when their Astral body takes a cruise around the Astral Plain? If Gurinder was giving you any kind of specific information, pertinent to your personal needs, or leading you thru the Inner Regions, and introducing you to Anami Purush, than I can see why you and others who see him inside would elevate his physical status outside. Other wise, he is just another disincarnated entity.

I see disincarnated entities inside often. Some I know, most of them, I can’t ever remember knowing. I just saw and had a conversation with my Brother In Law several mornings ago, during my meditation. I was about 90 minutes in, and we were having a conversation about Electronic devices. I was advising him. He was rebutting my advice, as he always did, when he was alive. But that that showed me, is, he has not yet reincarnated by still being in the Astral Plain still able to communicate. Other wise, his form would have only been lingering there, silently as most Astral forms met there do.

So, when you meet Gurinder inside, does he do any thing special for you, or reveal any secrets to you, or make you feel sad to leave him there, to return to your 81 year old body?

Come on 777, come out of hiding and reveal your real name, and explain why Gurinder Singh is any different than any of the other spirits appearing in the Astral Plain as Allen Kardac wrote anout in his Book, “ The Spirit’s Book.” By the way, Allen Kardac was your Countryman, living in France.

Plane answers please. Not mystical riddles that need decipering by Astrologers.


Table of Contents are at tne end of the Book.

@ Jim - I sometimes dream of Gurinder but he looks different - if you know what I mean.
Mehta does that mean

Spirits explaining how they interact with each other in the Astral Plane, both during sleep, and after death of the physical bodies. These questions were asked by Allan Kardac to Spirit Mediums , many, who corraborated the answers. The term, “ Astral Plane” had not yet been coined by Theosophy, and was unknown by Kardac when he wrote The Spirits Book. Here are some of the answers from the Book regarding seeing disincarnated entity spirits. My conjecture is, the same spiritual mechanics applies to seeing the radiant forms of Gurinder and Charan, or any Master, inside. It also answers Lane’s “ Chandian effect” of how Fakir Chand’s Astral body appeared to his followers with out him even knowing it happened wnile he was either asleep or in meditation.

400. Does the incarnated spirit reside willingly in his corporeal envelope ?
"You might as well ask whether a prisoner willingly remains locked up in prison. The incarnated spirit aspires incessantly after his deliverance; and the grosser his envelope, the more desirous is be to be rid of it."
401. Does the soul take rest, like tile body, during sleep?
"No; a spirit is never inactive. The bonds which unite him to the body are relaxed during sleep; and as the body does not then need his presence, he travels through space, and enters into more direct relation with other spirits.”
402. How can we ascertain the fact of a spirit's liberty during sleep?
"By dreams. Be very sure that, when his body is asleep, a spirit enjoys the use of faculties of which he is unconscious while his body is awake. He remembers the past, and sometimes foresees the future: he acquires more power, and is able to enter into communication with other spirits, either in this world or in some other.
"You often say, 'I have had a strange dream, a frightful dream, without any likeness to reality' You are mistaken in thinking it to be so; for it is often a reminiscence of places and things which you have seen in the past, or a foresight of those which you will see in another existence, or in this one at some future time. The body being torpid, the spirit tries to break his chain, and seeks, in the past or in the future, for the means of doing so.
"Poor human beings! how little do you know of the commonest phenomena of your life! You fancy yourselves to be very learned, and you are puzzled by the most ordinary things. To questions that any child might ask, 'What do we do when we are asleep?' 'What are dreams?' you are incapable of replying.
"Sleep effects a partial freeing of the soul from the body. When you sleep, your spirit is, for the time being, in the state in which you will be after your death. The spirits who at death are promptly freed from matter are those who, during their life, have had what may be called intelligent sleep. Such persons, when they sleep, regain the society of other spirits superior to themselves. They go about with them, conversing with them, and gaining instruction from them; they even work, in the spirit-world, at undertakings which, on dying, they find already begun or completed. From this you see how little death should be dreaded, since, according to the saying of St. Paul, you 'die daily.'
"What we have just stated refers to spirits of an elevated degree of advancement. As for those of the common mass of men, who, after their death, remain for long hours in the state of confusion and uncertainty of which you have been told by such, they go, during sleep, into worlds of lower rank than the earth, to which they are drawn back by old affections, or by the attraction of pleasures still baser than those to which they are addicted in your world; visits in which they gather ideas still viler, more ignoble, and more mischievous than those which they had professed during their waking hours. And that which engenders sympathy in the earthly life is nothing else than the fact that you feel yourselves, on waking, affectionately attracted towards those with whom you have passed eight or nine hours of happiness or pleasure. On the other hand, the explanation of the invincible antipathies you sometimes feel for certain persons is also to be found in the intuitive knowledge you have thus acquired of the fact that those persons have another conscience than yours, because you know them without having previously seen them with your bodily eyes. It is this same fact, moreover, that explains the indifference of some people for others; they do not care to make new friends, because they know that they have others by whom they are loved and cherished. In a word, sleep has more influence than you think upon your life.
"Through the effects of sleep, incarnated spirits are always in connection with the spirit- world; and it is in consideration of this fact that spirits of a higher order consent, without much re-
Sent from my i Pad -- Jim Sutherland

In sleep, a person goes lower than waking consciousness, during waking the mind exhausts the energy of spirit gained through partial contact with shabd/ etheric/atomic energy due to instability of mind, random thoughts, fears-phobias. The people seen during sleep are impressions on subconscious mind playing like movie. Sleep can be compared to narcotics taken by madman to counter his madness.

Wow Vinny >>> yeees



All very correct Jim
from the tax collector ( who at final point was a vegetarian )
up to a shameful life

But it's not my reason for anonymity

Many satsangis with special serendipities in their life and divulging that
came for the 'fall' - people starting to flatter them
up to organising their own RSS movement

next saying : My disciples did put me on this throne

This goes very very well with AUGUSTIN and the description of ever present presence of Sant Sat Gurus

Yes , thanks to anonymity, during those 5 years perhaps here @brians

I was able to give some details, about little and giant happenings

One particular about How was manifesting Charan to me
at a gathering in Wiesbaden, so NOT in meditation and I think a lot of silent Satsangis had the same
A river of diamonds coming out of his Head , going not 360 ° but in all possible 3D directions
and touching all molecules (matter) which changed in radient Gold
Next these "molecules" started to radiate themselves, seeing all satsangis present
as if they were lightened on, In fact that was the case

Another occasion in Dehli during a one-meter rain, everywhere around He changed in a Lion
goose bumps now -
like these images in India of Shiva with FOUR Heads, , but then . . 4 Lion heads
manifesting a gracefull power and the rain shunned the Satsang place
That tremendous Power : I cannot describe
Some , reading this will understand

We cannot even find words !

In the beginning I had doubt about Gurinder
until I got the same external and later internal manifestations concerning Him
So, ? ?
Resolved !

They are always smiling ( all Masters from Tulsi Sahib on )
all in their own special way
For more : I always wrote about these things

AUGUSTIN is so right

In side :
I never did in this life ,what you call astral travelling. Only this frightening experience I told about here and
that was one year before i heard of masters?
I am ( inside) so rapidly "hypnotized" by the splendor of the Sound
which I know . . . is HIM , The Master
Next :
The 5 words : They are not different, . . they really contain all that is
If you think 'I have nothing', no progress . . do the 5 words, 24/7 - it will amaze you
I started like that , now seems 100 years ago,
. . I thought : These Vows : is nice but I cannot, . . but repeating 24/7 . . . 
that one every stupid can !

So , this one I did reasonably good

The Darshan :
This contains also the same Manifestation, as I described above , but in an whole new ballGame

I can only say . . without proper preparation the body would stop functioning immediately
Therfore Charan said it all the time : Meditation : He knew it prepares us, you cannot do it enough

Our thoughts stop, . . making any later description impossible- It's like being a witness
You do these words and they change in The Love of the Almighty Creator, . . without hate, . . without fear . . (JapJi)

You hear the sweetsweet sweeter Sound ( which every 7 chakra entity 
of compassion in the universes can hear
and it becomes pure Love

You "see" HIM , The beloved Master who gave you all that
and He shows you yourinnermost being which is also great Love

NEXT ALL FOUR MELT TOGETHER and is what it always was LOVE

Nobody Ever can understand or explain, ONE CAN ONLY "BE" THAT
and Yes :
Charan Maharaji : It ever Grows
and yes :
Seth Shiv Dayal : Nobody is as dirty as I am,
me :
between :
SAME; plus long way to go & WOW . . .



Conquering lust is 99.99% spirituality, rest 0.01% is complimentary.

Ha ha
It cannot be conquered
Can only be replaced by another sweeter Lust


777 wtites,....”Many satsangis with special serendipities in their life and divulging that
came for the 'fall' - people starting to flatter them
up to organising their own RSS movement”

Me: Are you referring to Ishwar Puri here?

Or, are you insinuating that if you reveal your real Name and Identity, you will be appointed as the Perfect Living Master of The Church of The Churchless, and all the Exers here who have had no inner experiences, or seen Charan or Gurinder’s radiant forms , will ask you for Initiation, with Brian in the front of the line? If Brian leads the way, they might all follow, including Mike Williams and David Lane!

777 writes about Charan,,,.”Another occasion in Dehli during a one-meter rain, everywhere around He changed in a Lion
goose bumps now -
like these images in India of Shiva with FOUR Heads, , but then . . 4 Lion heads”

Me: Singh translates as Lion. So he morphed in to 4 Sikh Singhs. RSSB lineage.

Maybe past lives as Lions.

Kindly watch this video with English translation, the Saint was offered 25 acres of land by his grandfather to do farming but he refused & did manual labor in Rajasthan to stay in the peaceful area. Video filmed at Boston Airport in 2010.

Why do people label others. Obviously some people do give themselves a label such as satsangi, atheist, agnostic. What annoys me is that some people label others such as calling them Exers and judge them as having had no inner experiences. Its also interesting to see that everyone has an ego even those still following RSSB, still its better than pretending to be humble. Its ridiculous that having an ego is one of the deadly sins according to Sant Mat. It shows how much some religions want to make the masses humble so that they can be controlled.

There is a middle road that we can choose, in not belonging to any sect or group, in just being unknowing, living in the moment, experiencing our physical life as well as inner experiences and questioning everything.

Albert Einstein quote: A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?

@ Jen - I agree with you.

I think religion and sant mat does not reduce egos.

I think God needs to go back to the drawing board to see how He can extract the marked ones better.

There are a lot of decent people seeking answers who are simply walking away,

Best regards


Arjuna :
I think religion and sant mat does not reduce egos.

SHABD does, . . where-ever it's found


Oh Yes , the drawing board wow I like it
Every nano quark happening is OK

Hi Jen

You wrote, "Why do people label others."

Isn't that a label?
Satsangis contain the full span of personalities. Charan singh said that sometimes we find kinder people outside the sangat.

If you accept that they are all human beings at various stages of development, it makes things much more understandable. Like students in college, there are the first year students, the second year, etc. Proportionately, the graduate students are fewer in number. Many of these don't come to Satsang.

The ego of Satsangis is a minor issue. It's a challenge, and we can accept it as our teacher, when we see ourselves react with pride and anger to the ego insults of others.

You can't feel any insult when you have no ego to insult. And then, there is no persona, which is built on ego, to judge anyone else.

When you feel insulted, be thankful. It's a great cleanser that leaves one more receptive to shabd, if you take it that way. All advanced Satsangis have had to learn this lesson.

If the Master slights or insults you, that is all love.

As I wrote earlier, a little wind can extinguish a small flame, but a great flame grows even larger.

As 777 wrote, exposure to Shabd changes everything. The Holy Spirit silences us, changes us.

The babies cry. But when they drink from their mother's best, they are happy and quiet. And they know Mother is there taking God care of them. Exposure to Shabd every day alters who we are. The joy is immediate and wonderful. But it's effect on our personality can be a very gradual process. Yet, nothing else can compare to the Holy Spirit. In some ways, there is no real progress without it.

Once you have it, like a rich person of great wealth, then the pettiness of others means nothing, and we see our negative reaction to others' ego as a finger pointing back to our own.

Hi Vinny!
A great teacher!

"We don't have to reform others. We have to reform our own self."


Hi Vinny
I meant to say first, thanks for the video link.

Spencer, more preaching from you, blah de blah de blah... lol
Just watched a youtube that is more on my wavelength than your holy spirit, god and ego lecturing.
Jim, I think you will like this, its similar to the multidimensional experiences that Jurgen Ziewe has written about.

Arjuna, hope you will give this video a try it has some very interesting theories...

Is Our Universe Someone Else's Computer Simulation?

Published on Mar 29, 2018

Some people in the human abduction syndrome have reported that E.T.s describe our universe as a 3-D hologram projected from another dimension by a Super Intelligence.

Quantum computer engineers and astrophysicists ask in scientific papers: “Are We Living in a Computer Simulation Universe?” On April 5, 2016, the Hayden Planetarium in New York hosted a debate on the question “Is the Universe A Simulation?”

One of the panelists, James Gates, Ph.D., a theoretical physicist at the Univ. of Maryland said: “If the simulation hypothesis is valid, then we open the door to eternal life and resurrection and things that formally have been discussed in the realm of religion.”

Jen, I am familiar with Linda Moultan Howe. I have monitored her since she first appeared on the scene doing her field research and lecturing about Cattle mutilation happening all over the country. Cattle mutilation and Crop Circles are both mysteries that surely insinuate Alien intervention. I have been interested in Aliens and UFO research long before I ever got involved with Sant Mat or even Christianity. MUFON is an Alien Religeos group that have monthly meetings all over the U.S. Lecturing about Aliens and UFOs. Also, the late Zacharia Sitchen’s Earth Chronicle Books starting with “ The Twelth Planet” csught my interest long ago, and I have all of his Books and read them all. He was an interesting Linguistic Scholar, to say the least, and there have been many following his Annanuki Alien hypotheses. Cutting to the chase, I think that Alien Abduction is Lucid dreaming or deep meditation meeting disincarnated entities inside, But that does not answer the Crop Circles and Cattle Mutilations. UFOs and Aliens is a more controversal subject than Religeon to discuss, and is even condidered a religeon my many, considering that Jesus was born of a Virgin impregnated by a Holy Spirit, so that would make Jesus half human, half Alien. Jehvah was an Alien ET who was the ET Deity of the Hebrews, on earth, aling with other Alien ET Deities on eRth at that time waring against each other in Sitchen’s Earth Chronicle Books.

@ 777 hello.

What I meant by stating that God needs to go back to the drawing board is that his approach is failing.

If religion and sant mat were studied under case studies you would find that there would be very little they could show. And if you claimed to have seen god I’m sure that the white van with men in white uniforms would appear to take such people to lunatic asylums.

Sant mat needs a revision! It ain’t working. It’s pushing people away. When you see a system is just acting or acted humility it crashes. That is what I meant by the drawing board.

If we are already dead and blind - ten why is so much expected of us from a God who is so hard to reach. The Beaty if this is that even Gurinder has said “this isn’t the only path”. Wow. Is there another path that makes sense and isn’t driven by money???

I can honestly say that I have not read much on here which makes me go wow. It’s all been said before and nothing is new under the sun.

Have a great day or night - wherever you are

Hi Jen
I apologize for the lecture. To forgive others and focus on our own issues is the point, though it can only be a flawed point when it's given to anyone else.

But I speak sincerely from my own experience, as best I understand it.

My own work with my own shortcomings is a lifelong journey and battle and I'm not qualified to say anything to anyone. But what I know, I speak.

Shabd is the answer. It's the only answer I've found. It's the only answer I know, but it is an astounding answer.

You write as though you do not have that wealth, but rather than presume, I would like to know more about your experience with Shabd. Not with any organizion, not with your Master. These are all means to an end, and all have their limitations, and if they don't, they are also seen through our own limitations.

But Shabd is the ever fixed mark, the Transformational element, the foundation of everything else.

And so that is what I'm trying to understand to make sense of your complaint: your relationship to Shabd.

I see you searching for anything else, and wonder what happened to Shabd for you?

It will help me understand you better, Jen.

Spencer, no need to apologize, I know you mean well and like to help others.

You ask about the Shabd and what it means to me. You say "I see you searching for anything else, and wonder what happened to Shabd for you?"

I'm not searching for anything, just enjoying discovering new ideas such as the simulation theory and virtual reality. I think the sound that rings in our head is the sound of the universe.

No big deal Spencer, I don't need help or need to be saved, but thanks anyway for your kind thoughts :)

@ Spencer - just read Jens response to you and think your heart is in the right place but don’t try save everyone your own cross will be too heavy to carry - let alone anyone else’s. That goes for me too.

If you knew me and my sacrifices and what I would do to help- it would frighten you. Gurinder would challenge me and say “if only you knew the bad things that you have done in previous lives” that I don’t know but I would reply Doh at least I ain’t doing them in this life and that is what matters. And oh I can’t remember my last lives! It’s all nonsense- is it not.

Oh what really pusses me off - masters keep the lower dregs of society around them as they need more help! No shit Sherlock. The issue with that approach is that the good ones feck off somewhere else!!!!

And no mediation doesn’t bleedin help if you ain’t sure you are on a path where is power at the top!!!!!!!

Rant over x

To Arguna,......right after I had my Born Again religeous experince at 35 years old, I actually almost immediately became a religeous fanatic! I wanted it ALL, immediately, what all the other religeous fanatics claimed to possess. But the sad thing was, no one really, possessed any thing, that I didn’t already have. They only claimed to have the same powers that the Apostles of Jesus had , and that all other others lied about having for the last 2000 years. I chased after every well known Preacher , as well as less known Wannabees, tithing my income to Churches and Evangelists, all the time imagining that some of what they claimed to possess would rub off on me. What is sad is that, my faith was real, and my mind was really altered psychologically, from my Born Again experience, as if another soul had stepped in to my body and took over , killing the old Jim that had been there for 35 years! The change has been that drastic, in every area of my life. But I finally quit chasing men claiming to have more of God than I have, because once I got close enought to any of them, and had a chance to observe them, I found that every single one of them, had as many, if not more human viruses than even i ever have, and I quit chasing them with Thakar Singh being the last one I chased. I only chased Charan Singh thru his Books and Cassette tapes, but really, truely, hopefully, prayfully, expected Gurinder Singh to be THE exception to the failures of all of the hundreds of others I had been chasing who came up way short of my expectations. But I had only taken my expectations of Gurinder by what his followers had said about him. No one could ever know my expectations of Spiritual Bliss of finally, being graced to sit in the front row before thousand of his adoring Devotees at the Dera for my first time in Oct. 2017, at my ripe old age of 75 finally getting to see a Real God In Human Form!! And what did I see? Nothing but a little wise guy making jokes of not very funny things, and making wise cracks about a Guy’s wife’s Butt and asking him if he knew what a 69 was! There is no other way to tell it, other than the sad, sad, sad, truth of what he did, how he acted, and the language he used. Instead of me feeling that I wanted him to pray for me or any thing I needed, I felt a heart , felt inner desire to break thru his Security Guards and rush up to his High Chair, and lay hands on his head and heart, and pray the Exorcist Prayers to cast all the demons out of him! If you allowed him in a room alone with me praying for each other, ......it would be him asking for my help, not me asking for his. 😇
Now his folowers who dare, can ask me what I really think about what I felt being there. I now have had 6 months to digest my feelings since being there. Truthfully, I had given far too much credit to him, for only what I had heard with out being in his presence. But hey, each to his own. Thousands of the Happy Love Guru’s followers still love him, even after his conviction and finding out he was a sexual pervert among other things after being incarcerated to Prison.

Hi Jen and Arjuna!
You are both right. I'm fully occupied with my own issues.

I depend upon meditation every day.

I literally could not function without it. And when it lapses, problems invisibly pile up, so that when they become visible I realize this happened because I was not living aligned to that central spirit. And returning to the practice, to the spirit, regains for me that balance, until some episode or other, some life stresses, push me away from the practice. This has basically been my life pattern for over forty years. All that has happened is that the intervals, the lapses have shrunk from years, to months, to weeks, to days, to hours.

I've seen the pattern, and also seen the effects of staying true to my Master. My fate has not changed, except for a few unbelievable and life saving events.

But my inner life has become exceedingly sweet.

What has struck me is how even with the most amazing internal and external miraculous events, my mind still wanders and forgets. Only in the practice is my memory restored. Then I ask myself, "How could I have forgotten that?!"

So I see this estrangement, this amnesia in others. And I've seen it turn to bitterness, hardness. It is heart breaking. And then, of course, we try to justify it, egos that we are.

I read about much the same as my experience in other spiritual literature and do not confuse the packaging, which is just for the mind, with the substance, which is reality.

Certainly if I had been able to function otherwise, I would not return, again and again, and again. So I also see what happens across multiple lives, because the moment you dedicate yourself to one idea, one purpose, that cycle accelerates so that you can live through it many times in this life.

I know what it is to be distracted, to fall, to make excuses for oneself. And the difficulty asking for and humbly receiving much needed help and guidance from friends and family.

Saying 'I don't need my Master' hasn't actually worked for me, though it has been attempted and tested by my mind thousands of times.

Returning to the meditation helped me.

That is all I can offer, my own story.

I wish with all sincerity that Truth comes to you both in the way that works for you without so many falls, so much effort. Or that you are in a place where it simply isn't necessary, or where losing a day of meditation doesn't threaten your performance visibly in a highly visible, stressful and demanding job, or even in keeping peace and tranquility in close relationships where everyone is a mixed and volitile bag. You might say Master has me on a very tight leash. He must be with me at all times. So I work to keep pace. And in those moments have extreme happiness.

That glass of milk has been filled closer and closer to the cup's brim with each passing year, and with it the necessity of keeping absolute balance and calm. Because the very King who has ordered it to be filled with blissful life-giving nectar has also ordered his guards to beat me should I spill even a drop. This never fails to prove itself with even a moment's doubt.

To Spencer, ........thanks for coming out of your Hermetically sealed Righteous closet and revealing a few of your warts. 😇

Welcome to earth where none of us are perfect, and why we all need Christ. No exceptions. Including Atheists, Gurinder, Ishwar, and very other Preacher, Priest, Rabbi, Guru still alive.

Here is how I preached it from the Bible before I ever heard of Sant Mat or read any Eastern Scriptures. ( close your eyes, Jen, or leave the room)

Total Depravity Verse List
The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation. (Thus the necessity of a gracious, unconditional election.) Here is a sweeping survey of the biblical support for the doctrine.

Unless otherwise indicated, all Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

Is man basically good or basically evil?
All men? Are there any exceptions?
Are people good deep down?
Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?
Heart/Mind (Deceitful)
Will/Choosing (Enslaved)
Affections/Desires (Perverted)
et al (Utter Ruin)
Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?
Are men at least born pure? What about the “tabula rasa”?
What is the natural disposition of man toward God?
What is man’s relationship to God?
Can man then do anything to please God?
Are men at least seeking God?
Can the natural man comprehend the gospel or come to saving knowledge of God on his own?
Can men of themselves accept God’s gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?
Who supplies faith/belief/repentance?
Can men do anything to help themselves?
Then what becomes of our boasting?
Recommended Reading
Is man basically good or basically evil?

Ecclesiastes 7:29 - “See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”
Romans 5:7-8 - For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:12,19 - sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned… by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners
c.f. Job 15:14-16, 25:4-6; Ecclesiastes 9:3

All men? Are there any exceptions?

Psalm 143:2 - Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.
Romans 11:32 - For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (c.f. Galatians 3:22)
Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
2 Chronicles 6:36 - “there is no one who does not sin”
Isaiah 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way
Micah 7:2-4 - The godly has perished from the earth, and there is no one upright among mankind; they all lie in wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net. Their hands are on what is evil, to do it well; the prince and the judge ask for a bribe, and the great man utters the evil desire of his soul; thus they weave it together. The best of them is like a brier, the most upright of them a thorn hedge.
Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (c.f. Psalm 14:1-3, 53:1-3)
1 John 1:8,10 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us.
Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”
c.f. 1 Kings 8:46; 116:11, 130:3, 143:2; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Jeremiah 2:29; Micah 7:2-4, Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19; Romans 5:12-14; 1 Corinthians 5:9-10; James 3:2; etc., etc.

Are people good deep down?

Mark 7:21-23 - “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
Psalm 5:9 - For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.
Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?

Heart/Mind (Deceitful)

Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Romans 1:28-31 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were… foolish
Ephesians 4:17-18 - you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 - among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish… Every man is stupid and without knowledge
Matthew 15:19 - “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.” (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.
Proverbs 10:20 - the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
Proverbs 28:26 - Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool
c.f. Deuteronomy 29:2-4; Psalm 10:4, 36:1-2, 58:4-5, 94:11; Proverbs 10:20; Ecclesiastes 8:11; Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26; Matthew 13:14; Mark 7:21-23; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 4:17-18, 23

Will/Choosing (Enslaved)

John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.”
2 Peter 2:19 - They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
Titus 3:3 - For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey…? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed… For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 - God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
c.f. Isaiah 42:6-7; Psalm 51:12; John 8:31-32,36; 2 Corinthians 3:17

Affections/Desires (Perverted)

Romans 1:24-27 - Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Ephesians 2:3 - we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Proverbs 21:10 - The soul of the wicked desires evil
John 3:19 - And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
John 8:44 - “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.”
c.f. Genesis 3:16; Psalm 4:2, 52:3-4 140:8; Proverbs 10:23; 2 Timothy 3:2-4; 2 Peter 2:13

et al (Utter Ruin)

Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Romans 7:18 - For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh.
Isaiah 1:5-6 - The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and raw wounds; they are not pressed out or bound up or softened with oil.
Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?

Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.
1 Samuel 24:13 - “As the proverb of the ancients says, ‘Out of the wicked comes wickedness.’”
Matthew 7:18 - “A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.” (c.f. Luke 6:43)
Matthew 12:34-35 - “How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.”
Romans 8:7 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from youth.
Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
c.f. Job 14:4; Matthew 12:34; John 15:5; Romans 14:23; Philippians 1:11; 1 John 5:18-19

Are men at least born pure? What about the “tabula rasa”?

Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”
Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
John 3:6 - “That which is born of the flesh is flesh”
c.f. Proverbs 22:15

What is the natural disposition of man toward God?

John 3:20 - “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.”
Romans 8:7-8 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God
Colossians 1:21 - And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds
c.f. Romans 1:28-30; James 4:4

What is man’s relationship to God?

Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb;
Ephesians 2:12-13 - remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:3 - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
c.f. Isaiah 59:2

Can man then do anything to please God?

Proverbs 15:9 - The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord
Proverbs 15:8 - The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord (c.f. Proverbs 21:27)
Proverbs 28:9 - If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.
Isaiah 64:6 - We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please [God]
Romans 8:7-8 - Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
c.f. Psalm 50:16; Proverbs 21:4; Isaiah 1:10-15; Amos 5:21-24

Are men at least seeking God?

Psalm 10:4 - In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, “There is no God.”
John 3:20 - “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.”
Isaiah 65:1 - “I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me; I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
Isaiah 64:7 - There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.
Romans 3:10-12 - “no one seeks for God.”
c.f. Romans 10:20

Can the natural man comprehend the gospel or come to saving knowledge of God on his own?

1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled… to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18,21-24 - For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles
Deuteronomy 29:2-4 - And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.”
Matthew 11:27 - “no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
c.f. Psalm 119:18; Proverbs 4:19; Isaiah 42:6-7; Hosea 14:9; Matthew 16:17; John 8:43; Acts 22:14, 26:18; Ephesians 4:17-19; 2 Corinthians 2:15-16; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 1 John 5:20

Can men of themselves accept God’s gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?

John 3:27 - John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.”
John 14:16-17 - “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.”
John 1:12-13 - But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 6:44,65 - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Romans 9:16 - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Romans 11:35-36 - “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things.
1 Corinthians 1:30 - And because of him you are in Christ Jesus
Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
c.f. Jonah 2:9; Zephaniah 3:9; John 15:16; 1 Corinthians 15:10; Philippians 1:6; James 1:18

Who supplies faith/belief/repentance?

Acts 16:14 - One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
1 Corinthians 3:6 - I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.
Acts 5:31 - “God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
Philippians 1:29 - For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should… believe in him
Acts 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 12:3 - For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
2 Timothy 2:24-25 - And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, [etc.]… God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth
1 Corinthians 12:3 - no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:3 - His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence
Romans 11:36 - For from him and through him and to him are all things.
1 Corinthians 4:7 - For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
John 3:6, 6:63 - “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.”
c.f. 1 Chronicles 29:14; John 5:44; Acts 3:16; Romans 1:8, 12:3; Ephesians 6:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:2

Can men do anything to help themselves?

Colossians 2:13 - And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses
Ephesians 2:1-2, 4-5 - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked… But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved
c.f. Psalm 49:7-9; Jeremiah 2:22; Ezekiel 16:6, 37:1-3; Romans 5:6

Then what becomes of our boasting?

Romans 3:27 - It is excluded.
c.f. 1 Corinthians 1:28-29, 4:7; Ephesians 2:9-9

Cheers,......and Blessings to us Depraved

@ Jim - what conviction do you refer to?

@ Spencer - I did want you to bare your soul I am not like most RSSB folk who week such spectacles.

I am a seeker after truth and am just praying that God finds me and leads me to a teacher who is Love incarnated.

To Arjuna, this is the Conviction I was referring to.


@ Jim - scary link


You must have copy/pasted all that
If not, . . ; how can you put so much energy
aiming an outcome nobody will read

Myself I , I fully understand , . . was once SO angry when I met
Charan for the first time,
I had my hands in my pockets, . . ; suddenly HE turned and approached me

Frozen, . . I was unable to retake a gentle position/ posture ( english is not my mothertongue)
I was like the Sodoma/Ghomorra salt pillars
next He passed me and greeted a guy next to me

I recovered , say in 20 minutes, . . quicker than you from the butt Master

Did you hear about the Sant SatGuru who spent the night in a brothel
and left 20 disciples outside ?

In all congregations: Love is so much pleasant


I tried to go through and catch

You are the only existing person in your life

Solispis,e or Solopisme is a little complicated
but is the truth

What I write here is of YOUR making


Hi Jim
Yes I also love the Gospels

"1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

This is the heart of the matter here, it seems to me.

The actual term for "natural" in the Greek is Psyche.... The mind does not accept the Spirit. The person who is using the limited reason of mind trades experience of the Holy Spirit, the Shabd, for mere concepts.

But once you have that spirit and can witness it, then the mind is focused on the Spirit and , as the gift from Christ in the flesh (for me, Maharaji Charan Singh) then we must work through that Spirit as Paul taught us :

". 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

" 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

"12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

IF.... it isn't a given...
BY THE SPIRIT... not our power but the spirit of Christ within us, the audible spirit...
YOU... That's not Christ's job. It's our job....
PUT TO DEATH THE MISDEEDS OF THE BODY.... It's our duty to use the spirit we were given. No one else 's job..

YOU WILL LIVE..Our eternal life depends upon actually having the gift of spirit And taking full responsibility to use it.. Both are necessary for life.
Words, oaths, promises and rituals are meaningless without this Spirit and our full responsibility to use it every day.

The above is from Romans 8

777 writes,...”You must have copy/pasted all that
If not, . . ; how can you put so much energy
aiming an outcome nobody will read”

Me:actually, that’s why I hung up my Credentials and quit preaching around 1985. There were no Word Processors or Internet then. It used to take me at last 10 hours to research and put together material for a 45 minute Sermon, and I gave several a week that nobody listened to. They came to Church to see their friends, gossip, and flaunt their knowledge. ( the young unmarried came to look for dates.)

Nothing has changed. As fhe Bible says, there is nothing new inder the sun. HaHa.

17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Ephesians 6:17

The word IS the spirit and the Spirit IS the Word.

Hear the holy Word.
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:2

777, you say "You are the only existing person in your life

Well, there you go. Everything we see and interact with is coloured by our own projections as in we are creating our own reality.

So why the insistence of having a guru? Is it fear that we need protection or is it some kind of perverted ego thing that we are not good enough or powerful enough and so we need to worship another? Sure, we can learn from others and then slowly make progress on our own path.

We all come from the same source and life seems to throw up something new to either challenge and/or help us to move in a new direction so that our consciousness continues to evolve.

Hi Jen
You ask
"So why the insistence of having a guru?"

There is a legitimate reason.

You wrote
"We all come from the same source and life seems to throw up something new to either challenge and/or help us to move in a new direction so that our consciousness continues to evolve."

If this is so, then others have gone there far earlier and farther than us. Some have gone the whole way. The holy spirit has been around for a long time. And before venturing into that uncharted land I would like a guide and a map please, and some training.

I was trained by a certified dive Master then I took the tests to receive my own certification before I started scuba diving. Is it wise or safe to do otherwise?

I was trained and took a test before I was allowed to drive a car on the streets. Is it wise or safe to do otherwise?

I would never fly on a plane without a trained pilot, would you?

I would never undergo surgery without a surgeon trained at a college by other surgeons, and fully credentialed and licensed. Who would do otherwise?

I would never attempt either of these myself without submitting to a qualified teacher. Would you?

So why the insistence of having a guru? Is it fear
that we need protection or is it some kind of perverted
ego thing that we are not good enough or powerful enough
and so we need to worship another?

Great Master offers a interesting answer to a similar
question in "Call of the Great Master":

Q: "Is it not a sign of weakness, or rather of cowardice,
to seek the help of a Guru? One must fight his own

A: You are welcome to undertake the journey alonne; but,
those who have seen the difficulties of the way hold a
different view. In our worldly wars don't we seek the
help of others? We cannot move a single step inside
without the help of a guide. You may call him Guru or,
if you don't like that word, call him friend or even

Hi guys,

Seems like I've become some sort of rebel, very strange since being initiated 49 years ago! I do appreciate your comments because I need to examine my own ideas and look at all sides of the argument. Problem is that I no longer trust these gurus.

If its all just consciousness that we merge back into, a tiny little drop merging into the ocean, then its no big deal. Also, the journey back, why would it be uncharted land when we're going back to where we came from?

Maybe I'm fooling myself but what about the idea that our Higher Self could be our own inner guide?

Great Jen

The Ocean flowing in the drop

The Kings Falcon, by no reason, <<< ha ha this ), has landed on your shoulder and has become yours


The poem starts with :

When the Ocean comes to You as a lover, be quick, don t hesitate, . . marry Him . .

My favorite Rumi


Before Abraham . . . . . . I AM

If its all just consciousness that we merge back into, a tiny little drop merging into the ocean, then its no big deal. Also, the journey back, why would it be uncharted land when we're going back to where we came from?

I like Ishwar Puri's anecdote about his childhood
when told he could visualize himself as "soul drop"
just going on a journey and finally merging back into
the ocean.

"Terrible" he thought. "I lose what little bit of identity
I have and what's the ocean gain with one more
drop. So it's lose-lose".

At some point, he realized that you don't go on a
"journey" at all because you never left the ocean
in the first place. Only your diminished awareness
has reduced you to think you're a "drop".

If its all just consciousness that we merge back into, a tiny little drop merging into the ocean, then its no big deal. Also, the journey back, why would it be uncharted land when we're going back to where we came from?

I like Ishwar Puri's anecdote about his childhood
when told he could visualize himself as "soul drop"
just going on a journey and finally merging back into
the ocean.

"Terrible" he thought. "I lose what little bit of identity
I have and what's the ocean gain with one more
drop. So it's lose-lose".

At some point, he realized that you don't go on a
"journey" at all because you never left the ocean
in the first place. Only your diminished awareness
has reduced you to think you're a "drop".

Hi Jen!

You wrote:

"Hi guys,

Seems like I've become some sort of rebel, very strange since being initiated 49 years ago! "

We are all rebels relative to thinking, maybe a part of ourselves is a rebel to our own!

Jen, after reading so many of your comments I am very curious to hear what you did and didn't get from your Shabd practice.

I get your rejection of the Masters, based on what people write here of their public appearances and statements, etc...

If I had nothing from Shabd my personal view of the Masters would just be the remarkable ethics in the philosophy I read, but having no deeper exposure, I might question how they handle their money, or why they were harsh to someone once, or even why they wear a turban. Nothing I can see would be enough to call them a "Master", except that I fell in love with the writings, Sawan Singh, Shiv Dayal, and Maharaji's philosophy. And then when I saw Gurindar, words can't describe it. But all that is from the perspective of my inner life.

It is the inner experience that puts the whole picture in an entirely different view. Sitting alone in a room most of my life? Can't wait to do so after work, can't wait to do so every morning.

Because I'm not in that room at all.

It's life, to me. So it surprises me, not just in reading your take, but also Jim's, Brian's , and Arjuna's.

My presumption has always been "Of course, they have extremely limited inner conscious exposure to Shabd. They aren't using Shabd actively every day, they don't see the pire of the storehouse of their own karmas... they don't pass through the stars and galaxies into the explosion of light every day...not part of their reality." etc...

But I don't know. The moment I put aside that thinking, you, Jen, become more of a mystery to me than my Master. Because I don't really know your (or Brian or Jim or Arjuna's) actual record of Shabd practice...How long you did it for, how disciplined you were, what you experienced, and your environment internally. It all makes ALL the difference in the world.

With zero actual Shabd experience, or sporadic at best, everything you write makes perfect sense.

But I do not wish to presume.

I don't understand how all the worldly news weights against your own experience of Shabd, and would like to hear your own narrative, if you wouldn't mind. Jim, Arjuna, same for you. If you've already given that, please give me a link.

And Brian, also. What really happened or didn't happen within? Where did you go? Can you still go there? How active is your internal life? What is your experience and progress with Shabd?

@ Spencer brother. You need some one to connect you to Shabd. A power in human form.

I fear the other side is having a lot of fun with you. They try that with me in the cave and he’ll i visit.

You are being manipulated brother by a very powerful entity. As I know that true contact with the source does not leave you as you state. You lose interest in the world.

The dark one is not so easy to defeat so I suggest 99 percent of people on here get of their soap box. He has you and you are still here. Most on here would crap their pants if they saw him.

Did you know Kal visited beas as the time of the great master sawan Singh. Robed in rags he wanted to see the master - master refused saying “ let the dog in he will go soon”. The sevadars only found out afterwards who he was.

He ain’t no small power - he follows me. I am bored of him but why the interest . I must be close to the real shabd

Hi Arjuna!
I was initiated by Maharaj Charan Singh 30 years ago July.

One thing I've learned is that it is not a good idea to try to project what is going on in anyone else's head. Hence my interest in others ' experience.

And yours?

@ Spencer lol. The lord protect us all.

I was telling you what I see. But you know better.

Hi Arjuna

I only know better for myself.
Each of us is the unalterable final judge in our own minds. No one can replace that position no matter how much we honor them or try to submit to their guidance.

As for opinions, we all have them.

Would you accept feedback from me about your development spiritually?

Didn't think so. Nor should you.

That is why I have a Master. He has already proven Himself, and I submit, as best I am able to His correction every day.

As for you, I am very interested to hear about your experience and connection to Shabd.

It helps me understand people's statements and judgements here.

Would someone versed in Shabd really judge someone else's spiritual development?

I'd like to understand your choice better.

@ Spencer you don’t want to know about my experiences -you won’t believe me.

Take care my friend

@ Spencer please stop saying I judged you. Knowing and judging are two different things.

I wish you all the best

@Arguna writes,,,,” I suggest 99 percent of people on here get of their soap box”

Me: I am curious who the remaining 1% is?

Spencer you say: "That is why I have a Master. He has already proven Himself, and I submit, as best I am able to His correction every day."

I remember being a humble, insecure, very low self esteem type person. Thats why I was happy to be initiated. Now it seems so very apparent to me that being humble and giving away one's own spiritual power to another is just a sign of weakness.

Do we ever really know who and what a Master is? We go to the Dera and we see someone on a stage acting a role. How do we know he is what we believe him to be. Its simply our own projections and beliefs that create inner visions.

Also, the Shabd which supposedly pulls people out of their bodies and into the inner regions. There are others who do not follow a guru who experience the inner regions. Is that because of the Shabd? Every living thing has a spiritual energy. Satsangis think they are the chosen ones and that is far from humility.

Its all a mystery and like Arjuna says there is a malevolent entity Sant Mat calls Kal who probably can also manifest into a divine angelic type being and then people think they have been saved when its just a trap.

Sorry Spencer, just been chastising myself for being so critical. I am going to try and stop this, its become a habit and not a good one. Going to watch myself when being triggered by something religious. Its not my place to judge.

To each their own.


The “Malevolent entity Sant Mat calls Kal”.... is TIME,.....OR universal Mind. That’s what Charan Singh said, in some of his Q & A tapes. He also sad many times said that our indvidual minds, were Agents of Universal Mind, Kal.

So, to me, at least, that verifies the Gnostic teaching that their evil creator is the Demiurge, or the Christian Satan, .

Satan and Lucifer are sad to be one and the same, but Lucifer was tne Angel of Light, who was cast down from Heaven, ( Sach Khand? ), whereas Satan, is the Bogeyman misidentified as Kal, i.e. Time.

But, no doubt, there are no shortage of evil disincarnated entities in the low Astral Realms, many that may have never even taken human form on planet earth.

Than again, if Charausi, i.e. the Wheel of 8,400,000 species is real, than just imagine all the Astral images of not only weird looking insects that would be very scary when met in the Astral realms during OBEs, but also imagine many species of earth’s past that have disappeared.

Hi Jim and Arjuna:

I do not believe Kal is evil. He is the negative power, in the sense of polar opposites. The opposite of all compassion, love, timeless and border-less Spirit, is the land of limits, borders, time.

Kal is the Lord of this region, and a couple of higher ones, including the Astral region. He is, as you point out Jim, the regent of time itself.

He is only "bad" in the sense that he runs the system of justice, Karma, without variation. He is the perfect law keeper, and is not malevolent.

He is worthy of his pay, and does an honorable job, in so far as the Supreme Lord wishes this place to run, and Kal, its Creator, runs it. And in the sense that he is the servant of God, worthy of our respect. To leave his place, it is important to do so honorably. There is, actually, no other way.

Hi Jen!

No problem. In fact, I didn't see your remarks as critical, but expository. Your sentiment that submission to God is giving up power to another being. If I thought that, certainly that is wrong.

But for me I am only connecting and honoring my true Self. You see, I'm not this personality, which is really the machine I use to function here, like driving my car. I'm more than that, as are you and everyone else here. We're all the same, but it isn't these bodies and brains at all. So to return to the One means leaving all that.

This body and brain are no source of power at all, but in fact barriers and filters of consciousness.

To take off the blinders and experience real freedom is the only power that has any actual value.

And that comes by gently taking off the clothes of this body and mind, and leaving them at the door to His abode.

At least as far as my experience goes. In loss, I gain freedom. In submission, I am no longer blind or disabled but fully able to travel under my own power, my will.

8.4 is way to little

ask any biologist


Hi Spencer,

Yes the body, brain etc is simply a vehicle here on this world. I still have some reservation about submission to another. My higher self longs to avoid all these so called gods and fly away free.

If we are all equal in spirit why do we need to submit, although I'm guessing that this 'god' we are talking about is the creator of this physical universe?

Who knows, we may all be creator gods and a fractal of our being decided to experience this other god's realm.

Hi Jen
Perhaps a better, more precise way to think of submission is lower mind submitting to higher mind.

Higher mind wants to merge in universal mind, which is a good thing.

Then soul is freed.

Submission to a guide only matters in the practical issue of progress.

If I practice ballet on my own that is fine and I can make some progress. To really advance, if that is my desire, I need to take lessons from a teacher, and have a dance partner.

If I want my car to run better I go to a mechanic.

So the issue of a spiritual teacher only arises when 1. we are trying to move our own progress forward and 2.We are actively working with Shabd (spirit) or our own mind, or any practice of prayer or meditation and realize we need assistance / guidance to get beyond some limitation or other.

Otherwise, why ask for any feedback or correction? Who wants to hear they are wrong?

The individual who seeks progress seeks feedback.

The hobbyist, when they get tired of watercolor painting gives it up and moves on to geocacheing, when that gets "boring" they try a writing class. When that feels like too much work they but a cookbook.... Etc..But that is just a hobby, not a profession.

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