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March 28, 2018


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Brian, how would you like us to deal with gentle thread drift?

Sometimes threads tend to drift somewhat and, Chinese Whispers fashion, end up speaking of things only tangentially related (if that) to your actual post. For instance, in that old thread with Osho Robbins’s account of Sevadar officiousness at Haynes Park, cc/x had (long ago) put in his on-topic comment ; Jen happened to see that comment, and commented on cc’s commenting and quoted cc’s comment ; which in turn set me off generally speaking of old threads and old-time commenters, as well as Osho Robbins’s courage in calling out that uncalled-for officiousness openly and without hiding behind anonymity.

Wholesale derails and hijacks are not done, absolutely ; they rightly belong only in these Open Threads. But these gentle thread drifts, as long as they don’t cascade off into a long-drawn off-topic discussions, are kind of an in-between gray area, aren’t they?

How’d you like us to treat them? Go into an Open Thread with them, or let them be?

(Either is fine I suppose, generally speaking ; it is just a question of your preference. Just wanted to clarify what your preference is on this.)

Brain - I came across a book called Lost Connections by Johann Hari.

Please read it and give me your thoughts. The penny dropped after reading it. I think everyone following RSSB needs to read this book as it is shows that there are people outside RSSB who are doing Seva on a level which RSSB cannot even compare with. And one of them is Reconnecting to Other People. The book is about depression and how we have all been hoodwinked into taking anti depressants -when the answers to our trouble in the vast majority of cases are our situations....and other people.

One of the things I noticed that most RSSB folk are truly depressed and sometimes we need to seek answers outside the group as to why we are going there. Going to Haynes Park certainly made me feel alone. But hey this isnt about me!!!

I waffle on. Please read it and give me your thoughts. All the Best

How to deal with life...

"In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains,
On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows,
In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame,
The good deeds a man has done before defend him"

Robert Oppenheimer's translation of one of the wise sayings (or Satakas) of the sanskrit author Bhartrihari.

No wonder people are depressed - the dark side of life - very haunting and emotional.

We can only do our best.

Robert Oppenheimer: "I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."


I posted my recent thoughts on my friend Dr. Ruquist’s Iswhar Puri site. I think it might give a little insight here, and add a little WD-40 to Charan’s Bulldozer Chain . This was advice I offered another Sant Mat Initiate which applies to all Sant Mat Initiates, regardless of the Lineage.

Consider your self a Missionary sent by your Higher Soul Self to balance unpaid Karmas from all of your Higher Soul’s past lives, both bad as well as good karmas. All of those karmas must be paid off to Kal before your Higher Soul Self that contains the DVDs of every past life ever lived since creation! If you create new additional karmas this life, they will be added and archived to your Higher Soul ( Causal Body), and if you are successful in burning more karmas than you create , then you will also burn karmas from your accumulated past lives archived in your Higher Soul Self’s Akashic Record, which are each individual past life that could be compared as a DVD. But if you must reincarnate or transmigrate again, you do NOT pick up one of those DVDs already lived, you only pick up the karmas of ALL of them!!! So, as a Missionary sent back here by your Higher Soul Self to return to the Martial Arts Octagon Ring of physical incarnation to again, challenge Kal to the fight of Death, .......in Pind, than you better well learn how to take that Battle above the Third Eye, Tishra Til where the Spiritual Path BEGINS,....because challenging to fight Kal in Pind will always be a loosing battle for you! Kal is King below the Third Eye! If you loose the Karmic balancing Spiritual Battle this life again, then another DVD of this life will be archived in your Higher Soul Self, i.e. your Causal body, and your physical body will die, but the less dense form of it will survive as your Astral Body, and live there in the Astral Realm, which is the Bardo described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. No karmas are balanced there! Karmas are ONLY balanced in physical HUMAN bodies! You remain in the Astral Plane until you reincarnate back to physical, then, your prior form dies in the Astral and disintegrates. It does not happen immediately, and may still be seen by Astral Travelers. But when seen, it looks like a dead Zombie, and no longer can communicate. Presently, if you learn how to leave your body while in meditation, your Astral Form leaves your physical body and does or can communicate with other Astral forms who are still alive in physical bodies. This “Game of Kal” has been going on in the The Wheel of 84 for Eons, or longer than any one knows, including Masters. Now, you must see how far you have already come to have been chosen by The Father and marked to be initiated in to The Path of The Masters and invited to start the Journey Back to Sach Khand! Please don’t take your Gift lightly! 😇😍

Jim Sutherland

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Hi Jim!
Beatifully written Satsang. I enjoyed it immensely.

Hi Arjuna!
Depression can be situational, biochemical or a bit of both. One size doesn't fit all. Meditation can help here, too, but not much if you are too anxious, fearful and distraught to meditate.

I've witnessed what drugs can do and I have to say that in some cases they work miracles and make it possible to function.

I've also witnessed the misguided efforts of some parents to take their kids off all medications when, for one reason or another, their biochemistry simply requires them to function. And the prison that this put their kids into all in the name of natural living.

We should all try to live in as healthful and natural a state and situation as possible, but when necessary, use everything modern medical science has to ease human suffering.

@ Spencer - thank for your comments.

I have been depressed in and off all my life but of recent have a great desire to mediate but my mind puts the fear that I will be attajed by dark entities - the mind is scary

Spencer, thanks for your Kudos. Too bad we make every thing so confrontational.

Arjuna, you are not alone. Regardless of how good life can be, during a limited time of Bliss, the rest of the time, we are all depressed, especially if we are are Sadhasoami Initiates. We know too much truth, about the suffering of the world, by all occupents in Chaurasi, i.e. The Wheel of 84. Before I was initiated, I was imune to others suffering, but after 30 years of Meditation and studying the Path, I am no longer cruel, and I feel sadness for all suffering, and loss of life, for even insects!

Wars would cease, if all of humanity became initiated. We would no longer need Sach Khand. We would have it on earth. But imagine Combat Soldiers ever being able to loose their depression after neing in combat and not only witnessing killing, but doing it?

In the U.S. Military, more Combat Soldiers are committing suicide than those being killed in Battle. There are Religeous Chaplins attending to the Military. Too bad there aren’t Radhasoami Guru Chaplains going in to battle giving Sat Sang to the soldiers!

JIm Sutherland

Hi Arjuna

Within you is the answer. But if biochemistry is in the way, environment is disruptive, then start with what will put you at ease and give you the most control and peace of mind. That is also part of the journey, part of the path towards the doorway.

If you have fear, then get help to overcome it. If your own thoughts frighten you, professional help can go a long way to helping you build that atmosphere where you can explore and discover treasures within.

Inside us is a great battle and a mighty victory. But we are not alone. Inside us also is our best Friend.

You mentioned going to Haynes Park.

I find the physical presence of the Master wipes out any fears I have. But your mileage may vary.

Some people just can't tolerate crowds of people who are just as flawed as they are. If I find it difficult living with me, I certainly will not be able to tolerate the flaws of many others, written in their mene, pronounced in their comments.

So your Satsang might just be a wonderful park bench on a quiet grey afternoon.

I was in the airport today, busy with business travelers, children and parents, college students. In a flash, in an instant, just looking at the planes taxiing; the beams of mid-afternoon sunlight shining through clouds upon the runways and baggage trucks; amidst the overhead announcements for this city and that country ; I realized that this was a miracle, this incredible moment of time, rich with pure energy and movement, and stillness all at once. I was in a world of magic taking place all around me. No longer a part of it, an observer, and yet more a part than anyone else could understand. Time slowed. And then the Master was there.

It can't be explained. It can't be seen by anyone else. But that is also what makes it sacred, what makes each of us sacred. That everyone is fully engaged in their own dream, and in a moment I saw it, and I wasn't afraid, or repulsed, I had nowhere to be, no deadlines or expectations, completely free in that moment, and instead of fear felt pure compassion, and thankfulness for this magic, because those drops of soul all around me, even the carpet and the trucks outside, and the attendant announcing the flight delay while another announced boarding, all part of One consciousness, and that consciousness Love itself.

Wherever you find that, you have entered Shangri La.

Then you have your Statsang and your Sangat, all humanity.

Your Master won't be far behind.

Too bad there aruru Chaplains going in to battle giving Sat Sang to the soldiers!

Ishwar Puri relates an interesting incident about three of Faqir Chand's
disciples in WW2. Surrounded by the enemy and fearing imminent
death, they held a mini-satsang. Suddenly Faqir Chand appeared
beside them and directed them to an escape route.

After escaping, they thanked Faquir Chand who was also a soldier.
He responded that he knew nothing of their rescue or his miraculous
intervention and confided he was shaking with fear himself because
of the bombing. He went on to clarify we project the power within us
and externalize it. At no time are we separate from the master within.

John 1:11
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
As Jesus had attained Samadhi / Trance in shabd , he knew that same energy is vibrating within everyone but people due to carnal desires don't pay attention to Primal energy / Shabd / Atomic energy. Atomic energy was manifested by scientists who led Saintly life & world war 2 was won by use of Atomic energy / Shabd's Energy. Scientists became the children of God & atomic energy was manifested through their works.

1984 anyone?



Justin Trudeau replaced "mankind" with "peoplekind".


How did Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, the world's favorite liberal mascot - a feminist man, with movie-star good looks, a 50 percent female cabinet and a political lexicon that has replaced "mankind" with "peoplekind" (making millions swoon) - end up looking silly, diminished and desperate on his trip to India this week?

Trudeau's India trip from the outset was playing to a diaspora gallery back home, one in which he has been studiously ambiguous on the Khalistani ties of some of his Liberal Party's Sikh Canadian supporters," Vivek Dehejia, a professor at Carleton University in Ottawa told me. "But for those who are lukewarm on Trudeau, this will reconfirm their impression that the rock star image hides feet of clay, and that he has been undone by his own cleverness in trying to massage the diaspora vote back home yet appear statesman-like here in India. That facade has crumbled.

High Dungeness

Can you provide a link or source for the Iswar Puri story you shared above?


Can you provide a link or source for the Iswar Puri story you shared above?

Hi Spence,

It was one of his U-tube talks. Very memorable but of course
became elusive when I started looking for it :)

He's repeated the story more than once as I recall. I'll keep

It was one of his U-tube talks...

I emailed Ishwar's org in case they know.

I emailed Ishwar's org in case they know

Meanwhile, here's the basis of the story from Faqir Chand's autobiography:


Search for "Iraq" on that page. That's where the incident occurred.
post WW1. (not WW2 as I reported).

I liked it - nice :
"""" But I could not read and digest it anymore, because Swami Ji Maharaj had most vehemently criticized almost all the religions including vendant, Sufism, Islam, Jainism and Buddhism. He declared them all in Kal and Maya. It was too much for me. """


Pity the Faqir didn't understand about the GIHF phenomenon

"Pity the Faqir didn't understand about the GIHF phenomenon"

Hahahahaha!! Thanks for the jollys and japes. Just checking out the posts here now first time in a while, and immediately faced by such delusional nonsense!

"The Faqir" understood more about the "GIHF phenomenon" than any other poster here, on RSS forum, in any satsang, and indeed, more than most if not ALL of the so-called "GIHFs", including most, most certainly Charan & Gurinder.

And that is (or should be, assuming some form of sentience in the reader :) staggeringly obvious judging by their own comments in context of "The Faqir's" message. "The Faqir" has prempted everything they have ever said or done, but it takes some sense of objectivity and intelligence to understand that.

Simply stating the opposite (fake news)does not make it true; Your comment is absolutely baseless - but priceless, so thanks!

Hi Dungeness!

Yes, I've read this among Faqir's own disciples and followers. But I've never heard Ishwar refer to Faqir, nor to Charan Singh, for that matter, among his UTube and Audio talks.

But I haven't heard all of them, probably a third so far.

If you find it please let me know, and I'll continue enjoying his talks. If I come by it, I'll also let you know which one for future reference.

Ishwar has been uniquely distant from other schools, and I've always honored that, referring exclusively to his own Master, the Great Master, in the stories I've heard so far.

When David Lane has documented " Chandian Effect " / Guru doesn't go anywhere phenomenon , there is no point in looking elsewhere.

Hi Vinny!

The point is that Ishwar's perspective has been a little different. He does not hold to Lane's view that it's all just illusory.

nor does Faqir's perspective, though accurate to some degree, fully encompass the teachings of the Master, nor my own experiences of the Path.

Rather Ishwar acknowledges the intimate connection between the disciple and the Master, both inside and outside, at least as I've read. And he acknowledges our past and future lives, not as imaginary, but as real records that can be viewed.

My own experience is that the inner and outer Master are highly connected. Basically the same. Though Master in the body is limited to the functioning of the physical body and brain. But connected to the Spirit, He can rise above as needed, and return to those limitations, depending on what is required.

In Spirit, in the realms above thought, there is no more discrimination.

To function here, you need a brain that deals with sensory input, decisions, memory and history.

But to be a Master is a different state altogether. No true Master would be afraid of losing the body in war time, because they leave it and pick it up again as they like.

Faqir was discussing his own perspective, but he cannot, nor can Lane, speak for True realized Sat Guru.

Short course, the realms of mind all deal with projection. But they are connected subtly to Shabd and are created from Shabd, just like this whole creation.

The realms beyond mind in Spirit are hard physical reality. Witnessing the gas clouds of the edges of the Milky way, or earth from Space is a hard, repeatable and verifiable experience, because that is a different witness of this particular realm.

And this is the pathway the true Saints provide, to Reality through direct exposure to that reality, not the biochemical flawed filters of this body of sensation and brain which can only construct a picture of reality and always stands as a barrier between us and reality. But to see that reality unfiltered, we are going way beyond thought. To take all that in at once is contrary to how our physical brain functions. But the true disciples at some point get that every day.

So there is the inner Master you see as you meditate, you focus on, the image created by your mind from your exposure to the Master. This helps you control your thoughts, simply by placing your thoughts upon someone you love. It is very natural and quite wonderful.

Then there is the Astral projection, still within that range of mind. It is the Shabd form on the lower, Astral plane.

And then the regions above mind, and the true radiant form of the Master, which has nothing at all to do with Mind. That's third region and above, to use the common vernacular.

That form and the physical Master are one and the same, in essence.

The physical body and brain for the Master are nothing more than the suit of clothes they wear here. Could be a nice new suit, could be older and worn, both body and brain. Their actual conscious existence is beyond that. And they are trying to help each of us understand the same is true for all of us. How to get there, that is the Path. And our connection to reality, true reality is within every one of us.

I'm going to share another experience I personally witnessed, take it within your own limitations of experience, but at least as a reference point from one who is a satsangi.

Several years ago I did something shameful. And at some point I was too ashamed to even leave the hotel room I was staying in, in order to go and give a presentation to a team of Health System administrators.

I spent the day in Meditation, asking nothing but forgiveness. It wasn't a great day for me. No inner experiences, just the memories of what I'd done, the feelings of trauma, grief and loss. But I stuck with it as best I could. Who else did I have to turn to ? No one else.

The next day my assistant called. As I saw their call on the phone, I realized I was going to have to apologize to everyone. I wasn't sure how the other executives would feel about it, or if I would even still have a job.

I picked up the phone and as I began to ask if she could please offer my apologies, she said she was calling to schedule a second, follow up, presentation. The Administrators called her earlier to say they had loved the presentation and wanted me to return to speak with more of their managers.

Since I wasn't there I can't explain what happened. When I did go back they all had their project folders with notes from the "presentation" I never gave.

That doesn't need to happen more than once to alter one's life completely.

FAQIR received the following from his guru , He considered as GIHForm:

"""" O! Faqir Blissful!
I am not a devotee of Rama, Krishana;
Know not Brahm nor God!
I have the craze for Faqir’s name;
I accept it alone as Supreme!
His Holiness wrote this for me simply to lift me up from my passive thoughts, because I used to consider myself as the greatest sinner. In another poem he assigned me threefold duty as:
Thou hast come in human form;
Wearing the garb of a Faqir,
Take with the miserable men;
And lead them to the Guru’s Abode,
Man, weak, helpless and ignorant;
Is grieved by the treble-torture,
Thy duty is to be compassionate;
Impart people the True-Name,
O! Thou generous one.
etc etc """"" etc

I remember to have read that KABIR bowed before one of his disciples
and said : " You are my Master "

I believe there is also a 'strange' occurrence with Tulsi Sahib vs SwamiJi Seth Shiv Dayal"
even John the Baptist vs Jesus

All this confirms that God does what He wants and what pleases Him"

What I always had against the Faqir is that he accused our RSSB Masters of cheating.
It is no cheating when God tells you NOT to tell the unexplainable Truth

Also Swami Ram Das from Kerala ( Charan said 3rd region) appeared like that ; . . gave a whole train of hundreds all candy out of a little paper sac )
I applaud Gurinder saying there is just One big Pool of GOD which is ONE )
and does he not like Guru Nanak says every day that He is the lowliest of the Lowly

Yes , . . He feels like that

So, . . . now everything is clear . . . IT IS THE SWEET SOUND IN EVERY 7 CHAKRAS ENTITY
and everybody of some compassion can hear
Eves apple was a STEAK which ended that holy contact

RSSB SatGurus can give us some "speed it up"
They are and were all different

In a practitioner, They are that Sound, . . and that Light

They tear us through the eye of the needle while realizing themselves
to be a complete Zero ( HAVE THEY TO PUBLICIZE THAT ON YOUTUBE ? )

Faqir's mistake is that he found it a necessity to tell the incomprehensible, shout it around.
It's a kind of : be more Rome than the Pope syndrome, so close to hypocrisy
The Truth is often relative, always in the middle
So many "Truths" did untold harm

Go inside and it's all simple and gorgeous ! ! !


Hi Spence,

I'd like to address your comments about Faqir Chand as I feel you've done a grievous disservice in representing both his life & his teachings. I suspect this is due to your filtering of his life & teachings through the filters of your dogmatic and unexamined belief-set, but you would probably disagree. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reminisce a bit.

I first read Chand via Lane's fantabulous "Neural Surfer" website back around 1997ish. I was an absolutely besotted & dewy-eyed follower (not initiated, too young) of Gurinder (24 hour obsession). Absolutely consumed by the fire of love & devotion towards the person of Gurinder. Reading Chand....and truly trying to understand him without judging & filtering him through my preconceived notions and beliefs (which, btw, was 100% certainty of the "truth" of the RSSB doctrine), which I think is the true distinguishing feature between genuine "seekers" and mere "followers"......absolutely shook my world and understanding of reality. So momentous was reading Chand, that it took a few years to fully integrate the stunning implications (on all levels, from mundane to "spiritual"), and I ending up leaving my association with RSSB.

So, that's me. Now to address your gross misrepresentation of the true depth and profundity of Chand's message, especially in context of your clear inference that it is the RSSB teachings that "encompass" Chand's and not vice versa. There is just too much irony there for me not to comment :)

Firstly, your comments about being in the realm of mind, beyond mind, astral, "3rd region", what a "Master" is etc etc. I think I can disregard all that. Personally, I'm entirely familiar with all such concepts, and I'm certain Chand was too. I find it all rather vacuous, myself. But it all sounds lovely, I have no problem with such concepts (even if it is incongruous you believe these concepts exist in realms where "there is no more discrimination"!), intellectual pursuits are all well and good.

You write "But to be a Master is a different state altogether. No true Master would be afraid of losing the body in war time"

I'm sorry Spence, but you are taking one of Chand's many breath-takingly honest first-person narratives (about possibly getting seriously hurt during war) from what was probably years before he even became a master, and before his "realisation" as he himself has explicitly stated in the chronology of his life! It is as intellectually dishonest as stating Sawan couldn't of been a "Perfect Master" because he discusses his problems with lust in his letters to Jaimal Singh (say what you like about Sawan, but he wasn't known for his smuttiness during satsangs, whatever issues he may have had with lust prior! Gurinder he ain't :).

But wait, here's the thing I don't think everyone realises about Chand, his true and unique greatness amongst all RS Gurus, and it is, I believe, entirely undeniable; Chand's first-person narrative of the sound and light journey, sach khand and above, and being a Guru!! Not a SINGLE other guru, in the history of RS, has done this! It is utterly astonishing, and we have been truly blessed and graced one of them, at least, had the honesty to do so! I have read countless books, biographies etc of these so called "Masters" of RS. If you disagree with what I state here, you do not understand it. There simply is no other RS guru who comes close in describing the minutiae of becoming and being an RS "Satguru". The rest is just bland platitudes and dogma you could teach a parrot to repeat (stick 'em on youtube, create a cult following etc :). Nothing which comes even remotely close to explaining how the "Satguru" is sure of the "truth" of their path; when it gets to that stage, beyond the mundane stories of their discipleship to their own guru or whatever, they revert to dogma from previous "Saints" and parroted cosmology and theology from books such as the highly questionable in authorship, quality and sanity, Anurag Sagar.

Chand didn't sell us a comsology, he just shared his experience. Wow! utterly astonishing and beautiful! And, at the end of it, he says "I don't know, maybe I am mistaken"!!

It takes a different sort of perspective to the egotistical-mythical to realise the true greatness of Chand, and why he was the real "Satguru" of the whole phenomena....and simultaneously utterly mundane, just like the rest of us.

Spence - in your subsequent post you relate an experience, to be "taken within your own limitations of experience", in seeming support of your argument against Chand. Again, I suggest you have grossly misunderstood the true depth of Chand's revelation.

To be blunt, your experience as related above is precisely a rather unremarkable example of the type of experiences disciples project upon the "Satguru". There is absolutely nothing, at all, in your story that connects, even remotely, your experience with the physical person of Gurinder, other than your own mental beliefs & projections.

Going back to Chand, as a "Satguru" (not a self-professed frightened soldier, albeit transparently actually a very brave one....genuine humility can be lost on those seduced by the faux humility of billionaires sat on gaddhis of vast empires whilst proclaiming it is my own guru doing everything :), he recounts the story of some of his followers who were going to be killed during the partition of India by Pathans (I believe, I have not read any Chand for what must be 13+ years, memory fades as you age!). They were, apparently, miraculously saved by the luminous and visible presence of Chand's form, and the Pathans left. Numerous people witnessed this form. They wrote to their Satguru thanking him for his help. Chand said he had no idea what was happening there!! I think both Chand's perspective and miracle story trumps yours here, no Spence? Or do the "limitations of" Chand's "experience" not quite "encompass" your own? :)

What Chand is doing, imo, is revealing the mechanics of the phenomena, and by implication gurus, consciousness, miracles, reality, "realisation" etc. The rest stay mute, or behind cliched & ambiguous phrases like "it is all my guru's work", but with an implied wink. I know all the rationalisations to cover this up, I've pondered over them myself many, many times, for years and as a "believer" (years ago!). But they explain nothing and are vacuous. To understand Chand is to understand he explains everything (that is repressed or ignored by "followers"). It can help to have some experience of being this person who is projected upon, to fully understand this.....that's what happened to Chand, and according to his own words it was fundamental in helping him achieve his important "realisation". I won't bother in this domain of hyper-egotism to describe my own personal experiences in this regard, but I will say consciousness and reality are far, far more mysterious than the simple narrative of RS cosmology can even begin to approach.....

One, traditional RS teachings, is trapping you in a set of limiting dogmatic beliefs & simplistic, dualistic narratives; the other, Chand, is revealing the very mechanics of your own consciousness, the root of all that is occurring here. I suggest one of these is vacuous fluff that can be repeated by any trained parrot, the other, essential. Let the limitations of your own experience dictate!!



I will never have a doubt that when Charan Singh appeared to me, inside while in deep meditation, it was his Astral Body. He spoke to me and touched me, and it had nothing to do with my brain.

I really doubt Charan will ever reincarnate back here again, and the fact that he spoke to me from the Astral Realm indicates he has not permately moved to the Causal Realm yet, and will keep operating from the Astral Realm until the physical death of his last Initiate.

When that last Initite passes, then, Charan’s soul will vacate his Astral body, which will slowly disintigate as he transitions to the Causal Realm to then operate and guide his Initiates from the Astral Realm to the Causal Realm.

After his very last Initiate transitions to the Causal Realm, Charan will operate from Sach Khand guiding his Initiates to Sach Khand. When his very last Initiate transitions from the Causal Realm to Sach Khand, then he and all of us will journey to Anami Purish and remain there as ONE.

So, it is in the best interest of every Charan Singh Initiate to encourge each other to keep moving forward so that the BIG BELL is rung, and we all win our Prize. We Beliecers need to help pull Charan’s Bulldzer Chain tomkee pressure on the slackers.

Just because Faquir Chand was unaware of his Astral body traveling to his desciples in need, does not prove he didn’t , no matter what Lane says.

Also, Astral bodies are spirits , with out physicsl bodies, not Gods. I see them almost every night in dreams , as well as while in meditation when my soul slips down from the Third Eye level to the Throat Chakra where the lower Astral,realm exsts. Not a real big deal after experiencing It for Decades.

Ishwar Puri explains it all clearer than any one I have ever heard exlain it. That doesn’t make him God. It makes him a long time meditator who has experienced what he explains. But that doesn’t mean he stays in Sach Khand full time.

Jim Sutherland

Ah, as is always the case, I forgot to mention whole chunks of information which are relevant. I feel I have to note them down briefly at least as they are exceptions to what I claimed above....

When I say Chand was the only honest guru, this is of course within a highly specific context that I state above; first person narrative & complete honesty about all the important parts of becoming and being a "Satguru" and all that implies.

However, there are of course some exceptions to some degree. Most notable are the exceptions of Sawan and Charan, imo. The thing is, I don't think these exceptions, profoundly revealing with many implications as they are, have really been understood by most satsangis?

Sawan, when initially chosen as the successor to Jaimal, and the new "Satguru" of Beas, expressed deep & genuine doubts & concerns about his ability to be "Satguru". Even from within the bubble of only reading official RSSB literature (pre internet days, for me anyway!), it was clear Sawan did not believe he was the "Satguru" as he believed it was defined in his mind. This troubled me deeply, even at that time when I knew nothing much & wasn't concerned in the slightest about other rival RS gurus and the such. Over at the RSS forum, it has been said many times Sawan requested help from someone in the Agra line of "Satgurus" to help with initiating new followers, and that it was they at Agra that persuaded him (Sawan) to initiate. I am quite certain I read this in the official RSSB literature myself as a kid, which was part of what troubled me (memory fades, can't quite recall the details, just that Sawan was clearly confused by his appointment and didn't initiate for a long while!) . What troubled me was the whole idea Sawan didn't know he was the Satguru. It is clear, with a little understanding of human psychology, that Sawan became entrained into accepting himself into the position, as influenced by events around him. I understood this, albeit dimly, even as a relative child and complete believer in RSSB doctrine.

The second, even more revealing instance of honesty, is Charan's. He was like Sawan Squared. He even tried to run away! His acceptance speech is profoundly revealing, but taken as "humility". Perhaps it was simply a moment of honesty? His publishing of "Legacy of Love" and that other blue book that was like a biography of his was, insisting upon publishing those books, that contain all these breath-taking moments of honesty, before he passed away, were Charan's Chandian moment imo! They contain many profound and honest insights. I just question to what degree his initiates truly understood them?

I believe this is Charan's most honest, and most important, statement, imo:

""I feel that I am like a stone idol in a temple. According to their notions of love, some bathe it with cold water, some with hot water, and some deck it in fine clothes, but it is still an idol all the same."
Charan Singh's acceptance speech.

Humility, or simply the truth? I say both.

Astral world is thoughts of any man , causal world is desires preceding thoughts , freezing of mind leads to stopping of thoughts and desires , after freezing of mind due to strength of Soul / Etheric consciousness only Shabd / Sound is heard. Above Shabd / Sound light is perceived due to increased frequency of vibration of Unified field / Atomic energy. Its all physics. The miracles of Faqir Chand appearing to devotees , when they were told to Faqir Chand , he simply said , pure mind has the power to manifest forms. For illiterate people , explosion of atom bomb & wireless mobile / internet are also miracles. Wake up guys , don't become victims of mental slavery Sant-mat, real Sant mat is Physics & Unified field. For inspiration you can love any Saint , its only inspiration. Nothing wrong in inspiration but its not truth. I still take inspiration from all the Sant-mat Saints , its only inspiration. Truth is very different. Many times people hear the ringing of mobile phones when no call is coming , its their blind love for relatives / world which creates
this phenomenon.

Hi Manjit:

I very much appreciate your admiration for Faqir Chand and I think you have misunderstood my comments.

Let me explain. I have no comment about Faqir Chand, as I don't know him. I am only referring to the reference that Dungeness made indicating...

1. Ishwar Puri had mentioned him in this narrative, whereas I have listened to Puri but never heard Puri mention any Master besides his own. So I asked for some location to hear for myself. I admire Ishwar Puri greatly and would be interested to hear exactly how he describes this incident during the war.
2. That during world war II Faqir Chand's disciples made this claim...they were his disciples at that time.

From Dungeness' post above:

"Ishwar Puri relates an interesting incident about three of Faqir Chand's
disciples in WW2. Surrounded by the enemy and fearing imminent
death, they held a mini-satsang. Suddenly Faqir Chand appeared
beside them and directed them to an escape route."

You wrote:

"I'm sorry Spence, but you are taking one of Chand's many breath-takingly honest first-person narratives (about possibly getting seriously hurt during war) from what was probably years before he even became a master, and before his "realisation" as he himself has explicitly stated in the chronology of his life! "

This would make perfect sense, Manjit, and would be entirely normal for anyone, Master or otherwise, before they had reached that state. If what you write is true. But your hypothesis is false.

Chand was born in 1889, and was in his fifties during WWII. And as you can see his disciples held a mini satsang in his honor.

It's simple, he was never at that stage internally. So while it is entirely appropriate for him to reflect upon his own experience candidly, as we all should do, and that is admirable, it is equally deplorable to make claims about anone else's experience. That's wrong. However, I don't know if Chand did this. I haven't read his works, so I do not wish to make any judgement about that. I only say that we should not judge the height of a building from where we stand on the ground.

A true Sat Guru is something a little different, Manjit. But each person's experience is also a little different.

That doesn't make it wrong.

It's not my job to prove miracles happen (in a sense, because there is no such thing as "supernatural" ...all events are "natural" some more astounding than others, but our ability to be awestruck, humbled and thankful is part of what makes an event a true miracle).

However it is wrong for anyone to presume what is going on in someone else's head, or to circumscribe anyone else's experience in one's own limited mental prison of limited ideas and notions.

Some people do have hallucinations.
Some people do have false dogmas.
That's when the mind works outside it's limited range of activity.

And some people do witness God, and true Reality. Generally outside of the above limitations.

Oh dear Spencer! It's a shame, albeit entirely predictable, that you have completely missed all the intricacies and implications in my post, yet somehow decided to double down on your misunderstanding of one singular issue, presumably because you sense your facade most fragile at that juncture :)

Let's see if I can make this clearer? (as it is clear you have no real comprehension or understanding or knowledge about the life and teachings of Faqir Chand, and utterly astonishing that despite this you know he was not a "True Satguru" or "at the same stage" like Gurinder Singh the semi-billionaire who discusses engaging sexual positions during satsang! And quite hilarious too, honestly :) :) Yes, indeed, they ARE "something a little different", entirely agreed!)

You wrote:

"No true Master would be afraid of losing the body in war time, ".

You are clearly referring, admittedly I think, to Chand.

However, in this entire thread the only time anything remotely referencing Chand showing some concern of "losing the body" was in this link posted by Dungeness:


In which Chand states "I too was shaken with the fear of death.". This was in 1919 (WW2? Really? You care to defend your bruised ego rather than admit you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about?! Wow, brother.).

The 2nd story you now relate, about his 3 disciples......why would Chand be afraid of death then, he was miles away in safety? Hehe, really Spencer, the ego can really blind you to reality, can't it? :) THIS is the story I relate about how his disciples and allegedly murderous pathans saw Chand PROTECTING them in his "radiant" form.....not physically cowering in fear of death, he wasn't even there!!!

Never mind all the other points I made, too.

You double-down on absurdity and falsehood, and project blame onto me. Sounds about right. This was my favourite gem from all your comments, absolutely priceless, and completely transparent imo :)

Spence: "It's simple, he was never at that stage internally."

Hahaha. Cheers for that!



Hi Manjit:

You tried to weedle out of your error by claiming that the story Dungeness referred to was only the vision the soldiers had in WWII, but Faqir's admission of fear was in 1918.

Sorry, you are wrong.
Here it is once again what Dungeness posted. Please read carefully, and then scroll up to confirm for yourself.

Dungeness wrote:
"Ishwar Puri relates an interesting incident about three of Faqir Chand's
disciples in WW2. Surrounded by the enemy and fearing imminent
death, they held a mini-satsang. Suddenly Faqir Chand appeared
beside them and directed them to an escape route.

After escaping, they thanked Faquir Chand who was also a soldier.
He responded that he knew nothing of their rescue or his miraculous
intervention and confided he was shaking with fear himself because
of the bombing."

You see, this is WWII where Faqir says he was afraid, according to Dungeness' story.

And basically I only asked to hear Ishwar's telling of it.

Now, the actual story is probably different, maybe exactly as you write.

And if that is so Faqir wasn't afraid, which would be appropriate to a realized Master.

My comment was only based on what Dungeness wrote.

But since clearly you haven't had a good day, proceed to invent and project your own errors upon yours truly.

If Faqir's disciples could wrongly project, so can you. Seems to be a thing with his folks.....
(not: truly, this is found in every corner of the world:)

"clearly haven't had a good day"?


"weedle out of your error"? "Please read carefully, and then scroll up to confirm for yourself."?

I did:

Dungeness: "P.S. Search for "Iraq" on that page. That's where the incident occurred.
post WW1. (not WW2 as I reported)." @ 9.21pm

"If Faqir's disciples could wrongly project, so can you. Seems to be a thing with his folks....."?

Ah...never mind. I'll leave it to the infamous sagacity of the reader.....

G'nite brother :o)

And this is the problem, Spence.

That despite a barrage of evidence that people such as Charan and Gurinder are not "Satgurus" as defined by RS dogma, you believe them to be so. Yet, on the basis of one misremembered and misunderstood and mis-dated anecdote (albeit corrected later with a link to the full article, which you clearly didn't bother with, so certain are you of your misunderstandings!). You then proceed to write several further posts arguing the point & defending your ego with someone who has told you he has studied and pondered over his writings for years! That really does take some ego, my friend!

It is all very well your trite comments like "However it is wrong for anyone to presume what is going on in someone else's head, or to circumscribe anyone else's experience in one's own limited mental prison of limited ideas and notions." or we shouldn't judge another's experience, or " I only say that we should not judge the height of a building from where we stand on the ground." etc etc. All very lovely sounding, but profoundly hollow.

And that is made transparent when you then go on to proclaim things like "It's simple, he was never at that stage internally." or that "real Masters are something a little different".

I mean, YOU are judging a renowned master considered a "Satguru" by many (and not just in RS circles, btw) who meditated for about 75 odd years for probably about 3-15 hours a day....based on what? A post you've misread on a blog? My friend, if you sense any criticism of RSSB and it's guru's from me, you can bet your life it's based on something far more substantial......FAR more substantial knowledge, experience, understanding & personal devotion to them, than judging them based on my poor reading of a blog post.

Where the dogmatic beliefs & religious mindset lies should be clear.

It ALL comes back to Gurinders statement :

Not a perfect One
a complete One

All SatGurus have said that

See the Prayer of Set Shiv Dayal on the last page of Lekh Puri's book
"Radha Soami Teachings
Lekh is Ishwar's father


Seth sais on that page what Guru Nanak said all the time: " The lowliest of the lowly"

Charan said
How can we feel proud when we see/hear/realize the enormous
giant beauty of The Creator

I have in my comments here testified and swore about such appearance of my SATGURU many times!


Hi Manjit:

Wow Manjit, Your capacity to avoid a simple fact actually undermines everything else you wrote:

Dungeness posted this:
Dungeness wrote:
"Ishwar Puri relates an interesting incident about three of Faqir Chand's
disciples in WW2. Surrounded by the enemy and fearing imminent
death, they held a mini-satsang. Suddenly Faqir Chand appeared
beside them and directed them to an escape route.

After escaping, they thanked Faquir Chand who was also a soldier.
He responded that he knew nothing of their rescue or his miraculous
intervention and confided he was shaking with fear himself because
of the bombing."

Faqir was shaking with fear, in WW2, in his fifties, after having initiated several souls. According to Dungeness' telling.

Sorry, Manjit. Take up your complaint with Dungeness.

I'm just the messenger here.

Hi Manjit:

You wrote:
"I mean, YOU are judging a renowned master considered a "Satguru" by many.."

No, I'm not. please try to read what I actually wrote.

Here, let me re-paste it for you.

"And basically I only asked to hear Ishwar's telling of it.
Now, the actual story is probably different, maybe exactly as you write.
And if that is so Faqir wasn't afraid, which would be appropriate to a realized Master.
My comment was only based on what Dungeness wrote."

Manjit, read the above again please. The problem is that you failed to see that I was only commenting on Dungeness' story, not actually on Faqir, since as I have already stated twice, I don't know him. And I'm most welcome to change that based on any actual facts. That's why I would like to hear Ishwar's telling.

As I wrote earlier, I don't know anything about Faqir. But you have ignored all that and presumed I have some idea about him. I only am commenting on the picture presented in Dungeness' telling. I have no idea if that information is incorrect. You are suggesting Dungeness' telling is in error.

That's a conversation with Dungeness. I'll withold judgement until you two get your stories straight.

Meanwhile, you got the story wrong, according to Dungeness' version.

Wow Spence, I didn't think you could do it, but you've now managed to quadruple-down on what I have demonstrated is a clear error on your part several times! I don't think there is even a label for the next "down", I'll think I'll just label it "lost it"!

You write "Faqir was shaking with fear, in WW2, in his fifties, after having initiated several souls. According to Dungeness' telling."

However, before any of my posts today, Dungeness had already clarified this error and posted a link to the original article, which I have also done. So, again, verrry slowly:

Dungeness: "P.S. Search for "Iraq" on that page. That's where the incident occurred.
post WW1. (not WW2 as I reported)." @ 9.21pm


The facts are clear here Spence, this was NOT WW2 but actually 1919, Chand was NOT a "Satguru" and he had NOT attained his final "realisation" as according to his own chronology of experiences.

Yet you remain arguing, projecting? I am truly astonished at the human propensity for self-deceit when it comes to matters of religious belief. You appear to be arguing with me for not accepting your incorrect narrative of events, that I should engage with your error just because you believe your error to be true based purely on your not reading all of Dungeness's comments before you & I both posted today?

Does that not seem a little silly to you?

If you re-read my initial post to you today, you will notice all your subsequent posts have merely reinforced the truth of it. All you had to do was check your facts, then admit your error. But you didn't. You couldn't.

"I'm just a messenger here"?

Really Spence, this is just embarrassing. I have repeated YOUR, not Dungeness's, ignorant and factually incorrect comments numerous times. And now you're just a messenger? It's Dungeness's fault that because they mis-wrote WW2 and you didn't bother to check it or notice their correction (or my re-post of it), that you repeatedly judged and devalued Chand's status as a "True Master"? What exactly in my original post is incorrect, given Dungeness's correction of the date?

Really Spence, have a word with yourself, all this self-deceit can't be good for you.

Hi Manjit
I see the correction later. But you are still unable to admit the fact that the original error painted the picture of a Faqir telling his own disciples he was afraid. This is what my statement was based upon. Yes of course that picture was wrong according to Dungeness later correction. . But I didn't paint it. I reflected upon it. The reflection was in error based upon the erroneous picture.

I made clear I do not know Faqir. And I stated that the true picture is probably much different. I do not know Faqir and only based my comment on Dungeness original post.

So I still would like to hear Ishwar's take on this event, and even any mention at all about Faqir.

If one part of he story was wrong? What about the rest?
Did Ishwar ever mention anything like this about Faqir?

And now for something different .... (smiley face)

Are we individuated units of consciousness in an avatar form living in a Virtual Reality?


Tom Campbell: Our Virtual Reality vs Video Game Virtual Reality (12:36)
Published on Apr 5, 2018

In the video game as soon as the avatar looks away then its just gone, when he looks back there, you recompute it because its just that easy.

Very similar to the way our reality works as well. Our virtual reality only sends data to a player who needs it. If you don't need that data then it does not get sent to you.

Its not that things disappear because you don't look at them, they were never there in the first place.


I'm thinking that if we are religious and have beliefs in a guru or spiritual path or travelling in inner regions etc, we have visions and experiences because its what we want and that data is sent to us, but is it real?

I've read the link you provided, Manjit, to Faqir's autobiography. The story is very revealing. It appears that only very late in life did he achieve what he had originally sought, in his own definition. He carried anxiety, of one form or another, all his life.

He tells us about all his achievements spiritually, his errors, his efforts, his successes, all the praise his own guru lauded upon him, undeserved, saying he would get there in time, even while exhorting him to place himself in the role of a realised master. And then his hunger, his passion for that elusive goal.

But it seems he never learned the secret that God is not something you achieve. God is Love.

God loves us, not the other way around. In that pure love all questions are answered. We do not travel the creation on our achievements. We rise in the lap of our Father, Christ. And that Love is infinite.

It can't be explained. Only experienced.

So I still would like to hear Ishwar's take on this event, and even any mention at all about Faqir.
If one part of he story was wrong? What about the rest?
Did Ishwar ever mention anything like this about Faqir?

Whew, sidestepping a few bits of flying shrapnel, I found Ishwar's
mention of Faqir Chand in the transcripts:


# 40 Devotion is the Response to Love
# 81 Illusion or Reality

Ishwar relates he knew Faqir Chand personally. Perhaps he mis-heard
Faqir say WW2. Or, was it all planned to generate a kerfuffle :)

That makes me wonder if even advanced mystics feign emotion for
some deliberate effect. I can only guess that might be part of the
reason. Otherwise, they wouldn't be relatable as human. What if
Faqir Chand hadn't confided his own fear... but admitted it was
his grace or sermonized about remembering the inner Master if
in peril. The latter seems incomprehensible.

Dungeness, you have done a great thing with this work and post.
There should be no "kurfufel" when the issue is just information and clarification. There should be no personal attacks at all.

As I read more of Post 40 I came across this statement by Puri:

"The fact that the Master knows or does not know should not
hold you up from going within. That was the point he was trying to make. And people have
misunderstood him to say that all Masters know nothing. What he meant was, all Masters are a
projection outside and you must look for the real Master inside you. That’s very important!
Now I am saying the most important step in the journey to Sach Khand, to your true home, is the
journey to your inner Master, not after that. The Perfect Living Master takes full responsibility to
take you back from there and be with you. He never leaves you after that. You are His constant
companion. No person who has ever in meditation experienced the radiant form of a Master has
ever had an experience of loneliness in life at all."

There are no questions once you are in the presence of the Radiant form. There is no difference between you and the Master. But rather than reduce what that means to be "you" it is more appropriate to expand that definition and say that "you" are really part of everything, and part of that Spirit that drives all. Once you realize the truth of this, there can be no loneliness, no striving or concerns of any weight, because every day you return to this greater Truth within.

Thanks again Dungeness. You have done us all a Seva and it is appreciated.

Hi Dungeness:

For the benefit of all, from the link you provided to essay #80:
Ishwar Puri discusses Faqir's teachings and the clarifications Faqir himself made to Puri, as his neighbor, as well as his own expansion of those points:

"Therefore, it is important that while we have a perfect living master in our life, we
follow what he says, get instructions from him, understand what he is saying,
follow his instructions to the point that we can manifest his real form inside us,
because the real form inside us will not die, even when the physical form of the
master dies.
My master, Great Master, used to tell me, “The most important thing a disciple
should do while his master is alive is to find out the radiant form inside, to
manifest the radiant form of the master inside before the master dies. In that
case, when the master physically dies, he will never feel he has gone, because
master will stand right in front of him and say, ‘I am not dead. I am here.’”
Once you establish the radiant form of the master, he never goes away. He is with
you all the time. He can be in different places. He can be sitting beside you, and
you see him like you see the physical master. You drive your car, he is a passenger
sitting there, and you see him. You can talk to him, and sometimes you feel like
talking physically in the physical voice. Then you say, even if you think, he can
understand and answer. It is a great friendship. It is a friendship that has no
comparison with any other friendship that we have. And that radiant form of the
master who can appear physically, he can not only appear physically beside you,
he can overlap you. He can say, “Okay, you are not different from me. Ultimately
we are all one,” and he can give you that experience while you are in a physical
body. He is in his astral radiant body, and he can jump into you and merge and
show you, and you won’t know whether it is you or him or the same."

Ahh, good morning my friends! :)

Spence - wow, breath-taking. Quite honestly, despite recognising the whiff of pretence, even I'm surprised at your lack of character and sincerity here. That cognitive dissonnance must be hard to deal with!

So, after recognising that yes, the story Dungeness relates was from 30 prior to what you repeatedly claimed, the full extent of your recognition (contrition, apology, acceptance of error etc?), was you saying to me: "I see the correction later. But you are still unable to admit the fact that the original error painted the picture of a Faqir telling his own disciples he was afraid".

Wow, absolutely pathetic mate!!

Btw, my original post & subsequent post has nothing at all to do with this ridiculous diversion you've created (that I'm "unable to admit" the nature of YOUR and Dungeness's error? Seriously, time to come back to reality Spence, this has got utterly ridiculous, it is YOU that is embarrassed with your error, why would I be unable to admit it?! YOUR error was repeatedly implied in my posts, this bizarre suggestion that I'm "unable to admit" it is, well, desperate and obviously so!.

But wait, you go even further! You then fly through the link Dungeness provided (and I repasted for you, as you were so terribly mistaken, and arguing about it!) desperately looking for something to criticise with (and clearly finding nothing, hence your vague and ambiguous post, mean-spirited but yet totally and utterly ignorant and based on nothing but your bruised ego, religiious bias & dogmatic blind-belief. And this should be extremely obvious for any semi-intelligent person! This really is getting beyond desperate:

Spence. "It appears that only very late in life did he achieve what he had originally sought, in his own definition. He carried anxiety, of one form or another, all his life."

Well, re-read my initial post, then my follow up post your initial response.

You will notice there is not a single argument in there that you have contradicted in all your subsequent posts, and in fact re-inforced every single thing I wrote with your ceaseless dishonesty, insincerity & evasions.

Your talk of what "true masters" and what not are, and your desperate criticisms of Chand, are extremely revealing.

You may be terrific at fooling yourself Spence, but I'm afraid your cult leaders are not even in the same league as Chand, either in terms of honesty, sincerity, decency, knowledge, amount of meditation etc etc, and it is spectacularly obvious. Again, re-read my original posts - all your desperate subsequent attempts to "weedle" out of your patently mistaken position and then re-attempt to criticise Chand, the motivations and lack of understanding behind such religous-minded bigotry is all already there. Perhaps you need to re-read without your head up RSSB's ass? :)

This is what happens Spence when YOU judge the height of a tall building from the sub-basement (or whatever other vacuous and insincere comments you projected onto me).

Yes, Spence, I think you've done a great "seva" here today. Very revealing indeed! :)

I mean honestly, what does it take for a religious bigot to admit they were mistaken?

Why do people have this incessant need to be right, to evade the appearance of mistake, error?

It's simple; sorry, I was mistaken.

Of course, there are deeper realities Spence could (and should?) admit here, such the insincerity in his comments to me about "judging" the spiritual height or experiences of others......in a thread where I am questioning HIS judgement of a renowned master based on FACTUALLY incorrect statements and a complete ignorance of the subject matter.

But what chance such honestly & integrity?

None! The fellow can't even admit a simple thing like "I was in error" even when the fact is presented to them repeatedly, let alone sorry, let alone recognising all the other hypocrisies and ignorance and judgements etc.

Wow, guess is the wisdom and maturity of being an experienced RSSB satsangi!

Jen wrote "I'm thinking that if we are religious and have beliefs in a guru or spiritual path or travelling in inner regions etc, we have visions and experiences because its what we want and that data is sent to us, but is it real?"

Hi Jen. I read Campbell's "Big Toe" trilogy quite a while back (I want to say about 10 years?). Fascinating stuff.

Actually, in my original post to Spence (before I got sidetracked by evasion, dishonesty, distortion, insincerity, religious bigotry, ignorance, the facade of one pretending to know and be other than what they do & are etc :), I was actually going to go a little deeper into how we are creating our realities.

The truth is just so profound and mind-bending.....but to be quite frank, I never discuss these things often if ever, and when the crucible and context is one such as here - where noise, nonsense, ego, dishonesty etc are the top currency - I am not so inclined.

However, I would say, we do create our own reality and therefore experiences to a profound extent. That is why there are no "realised" followers of any RS gurus, ever, except the Masters....who too are not realised when they become masters, as admitted by themselves.


Because they are creating their dualistic reality, and their subservient position in the model, with their own inner-being. They are locked into duality, lack of progress, non-realisation. And then generate all sorts of experiences and "miracles" etc that seemingly confirm the "reality" of that model.

Ahh, busy now, cannot do the subject justice. Maybe some will have an inkling what I'm referring to!

Hi Manjit,

You say you were going to go a little deeper into how we are creating our realities and experiences.

Hope you can find the time! I am very interested in hearing your pov.


Hi Manjit,

I corrected the "WW2" mis-reporting way up-thread after researching the official Faqir Chand website. As I mentioned, the genesis of my error was Ishwar Puri's talk in which Ishwar mistakenly identifies this incident as occurring in WW2 rather than 1919.

Further, I provided no context about Faqir Chand's status but Ishwar's remarks certainly led me to believe he had great regard for him and that made him a possible, maybe even probable, PLM in my book. For some reason I thought everyone "in these here parts" was likely to already know his "rep". So I didn't mention it. My bad.

Therefore any misapprehension about F.C.'s status by Spencer or others would be totally understandable in my opinion. I don't think any further apology is warranted.

Hi Manjit,

I corrected the "WW2" mis-reporting way up-thread after researching the official Faqir Chand website. As I mentioned, the genesis of my error was Ishwar Puri's talk in which Ishwar mistakenly identifies this incident as occurring in WW2 rather than 1919.

Further, I provided no context about Faqir Chand's status but Ishwar's remarks certainly led me to believe he had great regard for him and that made him a possible, maybe even probable, PLM in my book. For some reason I thought everyone "in these here parts" was likely to already know his "rep". So I didn't mention it. My bad.

Therefore any misapprehension about F.C.'s status by Spencer or others would be totally understandable in my opinion. I don't think any further apology is warranted.

Hi Jen - thanks for your comment! :) Well, it's a vast....infinite?....subject, perhaps a subject of "all there is" even! So, I really need some context or limitation of scope to even approach the subject. There are so many layers or dimensions of reality and experience this concept of "you create your reality" applies to that I'm not sure where to begin, especially in a world where this idea is most popularised in imo naive, delusional and deeply mistaken notions of "the power of attraction" and the like (the "you" that "creates" your "reality" is not the little you that has superficial and materialistic desires and wants, it is far, far deeper than that, and that "you" often has motivations in direct conflict with the little ego that has short-sighted materialistic motivations).

It is all about what you consider your self to be, your consciousness, and reality etc. The "mechanics" of how this "creating your reality" occurs is vast and incredibly complex, and stretches from undifferentiated consciousness right down to this little bubble of isolated consciousness we call "me".

It is best to experience it yourself. You've been listening to Campbell's youtube videos (I've seen many too, but years ago)? Engage with some of the practices he suggests, open your consciousness up to the infinite possibilities :) Campbell says he is a proficient traveller of "inner worlds" (and I believe him), and he has a long history and experience with such states going back to his close & intimate relationship to Robert Monroe (of the Monroe Institute and OBE books legendary fame!), and was one of the main creators of the "hemi-sync" technologies they sold under the name "Gateway Programme". Basically, I suggest he has more experience with altered states of consciousness & "inner regions" than 99% of people on forums such as this and RSS, and without 99% of the vacuous and fluffy dogmatic hyper-egotistical hyper-bole behind it.

Anyway, this isn't answering your question - to be honest, it is frightening to attempt to discuss the "mechanics" of "creating your own reality" in intellectual terms and concepts......it is a lifetime's work, and I'm not up to that job :) Perhaps you have a more specific interest in that topic to discuss?

Cheers & take care,


Hi Dungeness, thanks for your comment. You wrote:

"Therefore any misapprehension about F.C.'s status by Spencer or others would be totally understandable in my opinion. I don't think any further apology is warranted."

Sorry, I think there is a misunderstanding here. First of all, I never for one moment thought there was any reason for YOU to apologise for anything. A mistake was made, an error. We all make them, no biggie at all! Damn, I'd be astonished if in my above posts I didn't make one or two errors with timelines or facts or details etc! We are all, after all, human.

Secondly, I never for one moment thought even Spence should "apologise"....in my ORIGINAL post. (please, for the sake of Satnam, re-read that post! The point of debate has been shifted so radically, it's quite disturbing to see!). Spence mistakenly thought, for WHATEVER reason, that Chand claimed to be afraid of losing his body during WW2 whilst he was a "Satguru". No biggie, it was a mistake. And, that is PRECISELY what my response was suggesting.

What I do feel somebody of decent character would do, is admit that error at some point (not claim to be a "middle-man", a "messenger" - because YOU never said Chand couldn't be a "Master"), and ultimately apologise for the subsequent 5 posts where he constantly shifts and "weedles" and accuses me of being incorrect. And then when sheepishly realising he was mistaken, STILL trying to blame me, and even then reading Chand's webpage SPECIFICALLY to find something to criticise him with. This is PRECISELY the sort of ignorant, close-minded, bigoted behaviour I actually describe in my original two posts. All the while, Spence is dropping these cliched & worn-out fancy sounding metaphors about how I shouldn't judge the spiritual state of others, whilst doing that to the legend that is Chand.....without even knowing ANYTHING about him?!! Surely the irony isn't lost on EVERYONE reading this thread?! :-o

Re-read my original comments, and Spence's responses to it, please. He has only vindicated every single point I made, and ignored all the others he couldn't even begin to address.

And to be clear, I don't want an apology, I couldn't care in the slightest. I just think it's a sad state of affairs when people simply aren't able to face the truth and show some character and decency.

Say what you like about me - arrogant, egotistical, harsh, rude, abrupt etc (on this public forum, at least). You may well be right, I don't know. I don't even really care (about appearances, I know how I think on the "inside"). But one thing I am quite sure of myself is that I am a slave to the "truth". I bow and prostrate it at every waking moment. I will not distort reality to fit the desires and beliefs of my ego. If I am incorrect about something, I am incorrect (and I very often am). I readily accept correction. If Spence had posted a link showing Chand did INDEED say he was shaking with fear in WW2, I would have apologised and got on with it. Damn, it wouldn't have even made a difference to the deeper points I made!!.....I even said my memory fails me & I haven't read Chand in at least 13+ years, I was ready & willing to be proven incorrect at any point! I also, I believe, tend to apologise when corrected after being so absurdly arrogant in my erroneous proclamations. No biggie! I will completely upturn everything in my reality if I am shown something that contradicts it, and would do it swiftly. I have no sacred cows, beliefs, predispositions etc to protect. My only love, and interest, is the "truth". The truth of our being, our consciousness, our reality, our experiences. The rest is all show. It seems, for some, it is ALL show.

Cheerio :)


Wow. Look, I read a post of Dungeness, one that actually was correct in so far as Dungeness accurately cited what Ishwar Puri had stated, though it is at odds a tad from Faqir's autobiography.

I didn't spot Dungeness correction, which actually was simply the link to the autobiography attributed to Faqir.

Until you pointed it out...(several times)....And yes, I missed it.

I apologize for that slip, Manjit.

I see how much you honor Faqir, and that love shines through above your vitriol.

That I can be wrong? Happens several times an hour!

But two things, Manjit. First, the statement I made about Faqir, which you took umption with, was just an interpretation of, what turns out is actually Ishwar Puri's rendition of the story.

Insofar as that information is wrong, so is my interpretation.

At no point did I claim this was Faqir. I only claimed to base my statement upon the narrative.

Again, I don't know Faqir.

I did, as a result of all the above, get a chance to read more of the autobiography as well as more of Ishwar Puri. Though the stories differ, they are both beautiful.

I want to return to a statement I made earlier and expand a bit on it.

From where we are at the bottom, we cannot rightly judge anyone else. I can't actually say who or what Faqir was. I can only interpret writings about him, and to the extent they are right or wrong so will be my interpretation.

So, in the end, and given that Dungeness accurately relayed two different accounts of the same situation from two different sources, I withdraw any judgement, positive or negative, about Faqir altogether. I don't have enough information to draw a conclusion.

I deeply apologize that my earlier remarks were offensive to you. Again, your love for Faqir is humbling to me, and I submit my poor judgement to that love.

To Manjit and Jen, or others interested in Robert Monroe Hemisync Astral Travel. Tom Campbell seems to have lost his Gaddi position at the Monroe Ashram to William Buhlman.
He and his wife teach Workshops now at the Monroe TMI Ashram in Virginia as well as their own Workshops. He has a large Internet presence, and has written many books, as well as having many youtube interviews, so if interested, check him out. He, like Gurinder Singh is a Throat Cancer survivor. His wife has been a Hospice Nurse for years, so between them, they make an interesting couple at TMI. I have listened to many of his talks as well as read some of his books. But my opinion, is , his, Campbell’s, as well as Monroe’s, are all low Astral realm
Lucid Dream experiences. Their terminology is dfferent than Sant Mat terminology, as they define the Astral and Causal realms as Focus Numbers, with Focus 21 seeming to be their Goal. Their using outer music and sounds from Audio CDs as well as flotation tanks keeps awareness locked inside the body, below the Third Eye level, IMO.I have sat thru many of the Gateway Series CDs, and have never been able to go inside using any of their CDs. All relaxing meditation music tho. I prefer the Inner Shabd Music that is the Sound of Silence.

Jim Sutherland

Well that is, errr, very magnanimous of you :)

You write: "I deeply apologize that my earlier remarks were offensive to you."

They weren't. Your subsequent 7 or so posts double, triple-downing etc on a simple factually incorrect statement were just bizarre. The vitriol contained in THOSE posts, well, it's nice you've apologised anyway, thanks. Neither here nor there to me, personally. I wasn't remotely offended, more so astonished at the human condition. You have your own conscience.

You write: "your love for Faqir..."

Yes, it's a strange sort of "love".

Whilst you get up every morning and force yourself to picture the face of your "love", repeat names they gave to you, for several hours, put their pictures up on your walls, read their books, live by the lifestyle they made you "vow" to keep, generally remember them all throughout the day etc.....

.....I on the other hand haven't even thought about any aspect of Chand or his teachings for what must be years, totally absent from my conscious stream of experience. No thought or concern, almost as if he doesn't even exist.

Until I check out this forum for the first time in ages and am immediately faced with this post from 777:

""Pity the Faqir didn't understand about the GIHF phenomenon""

Now, I genuinely found that hilarious, I believe I even laughed out loud in the workplace!! :) So, I couldn't help responding with a cheeky comment. Almost straight after which you posted your judgemental & clearly ignorant & uninformed piece about Chand. So I responded.

Yes, a strange sort of "love" indeed.

It is not restricted to the bodies of conmen, fakes and pretenders. Though, and you may not notice this in your ego-bruised & ego-bound state (:P), I love them too.

God bless you Spence....oh wait, you've got the real "connec'", please put in a good word for me Spence, let me be for forgiven for my errors, I know not what I do. I would, for you, truly & genuinely I would.


Hi Jim - thanks for your posts, you're an interesting fellow with a fair bit of variety in experience! Would love to hear more of your experiences with the hemi-sync?

I've got to leave now & for the rest of today so don't have time to really get into anything re your comment about "astral" etc, though they are interesting subjects of discussion I feel. And yes, read Buhlman's book/s decades ago too! Maybe get into these subjects another time.

Cheers :)

Hi Manjit!

I didn't need to put in a good word.
Maharaji said "Today Manjit is your teacher."

So, that was pretty rough for a few seconds. But you are held in high regard, already.

Where there are so many fakes, so many copies, there among them is the original.

To Manjit,.......other than a Troll, now and then, I think all of us who post and read here are seekers of Truth, rather than lies. If we believe Oneness Neo- Advaita Philosphy, we are all nothing but lies. “ we” don’t even exist, so must not be able to seek any thing, truth or lies.

As for Hemisync, there are hundreds of free CDs as well as most of the Gateway series on Youtube. As in Meditation, every one usuually has, or will have different experiences, due to our variety of environment and Culture.

I posted Links to this Guy in the past, but in case you missed it, here it is again. He also has books and many free Youtube Interviews. I think he goes deeper than the Monroe people. I think he posted on their TMI group for a short while, but was run off for not spouting their Party Line, which ALWAYS has happened to me , most places I have tried to intrude.

So far, this Church is the only one I have not been run off for farting in.


Jim Sutherland

Whoa whoa - just read Manjits comment that Gurinder was taking about sexual positions????? Why??????????

I need to know this as I have spent the last 40 years living like a yogi and avoiding sex. Is that true that Gurinder discusses sexual positions?? If so I’m going out on the pull tonight!!!!

Value of inspiration from Sant -mat Saints is that the illusion, lust, passion is always attacking the serious disciple. When disciple thinks about them it gives him courage to walk upon this most difficult path. Even a single thought has the power to destroy years of effort.

Kindly listen to this, 90 yr old Saint Huzur Capt Lal Chand disciple of Baba Faqir Chand talking to western disciple.When he met Faqir Chand for the first time, the pull of Sound current placed him in Trance / Samadhi. Faqir Chand told Captain, What I could achieve by decades of practice, you have achieved in short span. Faqir Chand told him as if by clairvoyance, your path was short but your pralabdh/ lifespan to live in the world is long. Everything is not mentioned in interview, I have been following this Saint by reading about him, therefore, I know some tidbits.

Wow guys, so much good energy I can feel in your comments. Lifted my spirits, like a whirlwind coming through or probably more like a hurricane just blasting through and sweeping away the debris. Very informative.

Reminded me of when I was reading Carlos Castaneda, Robert Monroe and Tom Campbell which seems like ages ago now.

Jim made me laugh out loud - "So far, this Church is the only one I have not been run off for farting in." Going to listen to Jurgen Ziewe youtube he posted.

So much more interesting than the mundane lifestyle that so many "normal" people live.

Yes, we are on the Discovering the Truth Movement. Way to go!

Cheers guys

After you listen to a few of Jurgen’s descriptions of his inner travels in Astral realms, he sure hasn’t seemed to have lost his ability of unlimited future experiences because of sharing inner experiences, as is taboo in Sant Mat groups. Regardless of the warnings not to discuss inner experiences, from the Git Go, I always shared my experiences with interested mystics. Some one first shared with me, or I would have never been interested in my own inner explorations. Every single time I sit in Meditation, I am in anticipation and expectation to experience some thing new. Only the Lights and sounds to the Entrance Gate to the Astral Realms remain fairly similar each meditation time, but after entering the Gate, no experience ever repeats itself. That alone is a valid motvation to never quit meditating. I think instead of loosing your Spirituality by sharing with others, you gain more by sharing.

Jim Sutherland

@ Jim Sutherland. Hello. May I ask which Master initiated you?

Arjuna asks Jim: “ Hello. May I ask which Master initiated you?”

Me: You must be a new Church Member here, or if not, very selective in your reading. I have posted numerous times that first, Thakar Singh initiated me, then a couple of years later, Charan Singh initiated me.

Jim Sutherland

To Arjuna from Jim Sutherland,.....this is posted here elsewhere, but here it is again for you. I posted this in RSS around 2002 or so, which actually happend in the mid 1990s.

“Now, for what I found and did not find, in my Space Cadet tours:
As stated before, I never saw any light nor heards any sound before initiation. At initiation, and being free of flesh foods for 90 days, alcohol and drugs for 10 years, I did see a few small "sparks" of light and did hear some "conch or sea shell" sounds when Thakar stuck his thumb in my ear! ( I don't know if the video on Lane's web sight is true, but if so, I'd have been a lot more cautious after I saw it to make sure it was only his thump he was stickling into my ear!!!)

After I got home and started to practice on my own, using the simran and Bajan technique, I saw flases of light that lasted longer, and heard sound that was louder. I took my lessons from Sawan's book, "Spiritual Gems." I spent two years meditating under thakar's regime, both home and with others at his meetings, but was never able to get any further then the flashes of light nor hear any sound without plugging my ears with my thumbs. Many of Thakar's desciples carried around "bajan sticks" everywhere with them. It was a stick shaped like a cross or tee about 3 ft. high. you could sit down in a chair and put or rest your arms on the cross at the top of the stick, and plug your ears with your thumbs for long periods, without exhausting your arms. It seems not very many meditaters I saw in Thakar's group spent much time in bajan. they mostly used the sticks, or just sat in chairs plugging their ears, and many used real ear plugs. I tried all of the above, but never got beyond the flases of light, not conch sound only when the ears were plugged. So, boredom sat in after a couple of years, and I was either ready to jump the fence to greener pastures, or quit, altogether. I talked to many Kirpal initiates who had come to Thakar, and most of them were on the same experince level as I, i.e. bored!! I can't ever remember meeting Thakar on the inside. During my early attemps at meditation, I did see many phantam like people I didn't recognize, and even demon like creatures who taunted me! I also felt like I was always off balance, or was ready to lift off my meditation chair, but never really did. I would seem to fall asleep, and my head would fall forward onto my chest, and I would wake up choking or gasping for air, as my wind pipe would be cut off. I read where a master tied his hair to a tree, so his head would stay up, but, I am bald, so that woudn't work for me! So, I tilted my recliner chair I was meditating in just back far enough, so that my head would not fall on my chest, but my spine would stay straight. But, as BAB testified about her meditation expierinces, there was mostly a lot of snoring. At the satsang meeting, we would meditate as a group, and there would be many snoring! so, doubts began to set in for me, and I started to expolre new possibilities. I read Darshan Singh's books, went to a couple of his meetings. I didn't likle his looks, and his talks never got a hook in me. I read Ajib Singh's books, and liked them, and sent for his tapes. He didn't speak English, so needed an interpreter, and I just couldn't feel any heart strings pulling me in his direction. As I said, I was reading Agra books, and enjoyed them, but RSSB books really moved my soul the most! I began to feel I wanted to find how I could get initiation from Charan. ( Before I forget, when I finally did get initiated by Roland DeVries by proxy for Charon, I was first surprised that the simran was the same, but he went into more detail about the bajan posture. The reading of the initiation cerimony from charan was moving and interesting for me, but in all, I was dissapointed in the simplicity of the initiation itself, as it seemed to be just a carbon copy of Thakar's and I had already wasted two years using that method without any significant or satisfying results. I left there actually not very encouraged that I would get any more then I already had.

I went home and started the same old meditation routine, but just changed my visualization from Thakar to Charan. It was difficult to make the transition at first, because I had seen Thakar many times in person, and even had been laser beam zapped by him, but had never seen Charan in person. But, I bought his videos at satsang, and every cassette tape that was available and begain to view the tapes. The transition begain to really take a hold on me, and after listening to hundreds of his tapes with all the usual Q & A sessions in India, I became an "Arm Chair Desciple." I can't really say I fell in love with Charan, long distance, because he had already left the body before we had a chance to establish any real relationship such as most of you core satsangees had with him, but I did really develope a very strong fondness for him. ( I will try and describe my present feeling for him and reasons in a later post.)

I must say, after what I considered the boring initiation by Roland DeVries,( I have always wondered if he reads these posts, or if he might even be an Xer or at least a Lurker on the fence?) I must confess my meditation expierience took off in leeps and bounds as I applied the time sitting. I religiously sat from 4:30 AM until 7:00 AM for seven years. My job schedule allowed me the liberty of doing so, but, I changed jobs, and could no longer keep any definite schedule, and until now, my meditations were hit and miss, 30 min. to an hour here and there.

But, I progressed to large flases of light, even like lighning bolts, as Sawan said would happen. I first saw bright light, bright as the sun, a golden color. Then, beyond the sun, I saw a silvery white sphere, that looked like the moon, Sawan said that would be there. Please note, I never saw everyhing all at once, and it took about five years before I progressed past the moon. Then, after the moon, I saw what I think Sawan refered to as The Star. For me, the star was not 5 pointed, but it actually looked like a glittering diamond, to a silvery white glittering lotus flower. There was a black center in the star, and I fought to keep my focus on the center looking at the black hole. Suddenly, either the star started moving towards me real fast, or I started to be sucked ito the vortex of the black hole in the star. I don't know which, to this day. But, with a lot of practice, I finally was sucked through the center of the star, and that's when the real experiences began! Don't ask me what plane of level or realm I was on, I just don't know.

But, after I broke through the "Black Hole" of the Lotus, I seemed to be in outer space, but the sky was a very bright blue, more blue then any blue sky I have ever experienced. Plus, I was traveling at a very high rate of speed. I felt like I was still sitting in the meditation position, and like I was on a magic carpet. I fought to maintain my balance as it felt like I kept slipping off the carpet and would turn on my side or up side down. I kept focussing right at the center but, was able to see a round planet of some type on my left far ahead, and also another larger planet, (round) on my right, far ahead of me. I was moving so fast, that I actually felt (or seemed to) feel the wind in my face and my hair, (what little I had left) blowing in the wind. When the speed increased to WARP speed, I started to panic, and looked back from where I came from, and as God is my withness, I actually saw the earth back there with all the water and land masses, just like we see from the space shots. I really paniced, then, and.......,ZAPP! I woke up back in by body, or back from the space cadet trip, at least. Now, if all those experiences were the results of just brain neurons firing, I sure seemed to have a lot of input and control on the metodology of having taken the trip. This was my peak experience, and I only went that far out once. But, I spent many more years trying to get there and beyond, with out the success again. I was able to (and am still able) to get to the star, but am never allowed to go through the black hole, or portal again. ( Guess after giving away my experience to ya'll, I won't even see any more flases or specks of light, but, I'm OK with that, too.)

I also had many OBEs, and went through walls, ceilings, through the roof, and rode my magic carpet over the houses in my neighborhood. It seemed I always kept picking up speed to WARP until I paniced, and ZAPP! I landed back in my body in my meditation chair with a noticeable THUD.

Well, that's the high lights of my meditation experiences, for what ever its worth to the club. I trust I may also be put into the "Lunny" catagory by some here, along with other past posters who chose to bare more of their expiernces than some are ready to hear, but, that's OK. As they say, "different strokes for different folks."

I must say, before I move on, none of these past experiences presently make me feel any more spiritual nor stroke my ego. I only witness that they happened to me, and I am still able to get at least to the star, using the RSSB technique described by Sawan in "Spiritual Gems." Will it save me from The Wheel of 84?" You be the judge.”

@ Jim, Thank you for posting that -most kind.

Thats amazing - you have abilities which some would consider unnatural. But they are not - you are awake.

Kind regards


@ Jim

Why do you consider the chap who initiated you (Roland) to be an Xer or sitting on the fence?

Arguna, .....I wrote that Article 15-16 years ago. Roland is long dead. Brian Hines posted about his death some where on his blogs that he had died in his 80s. I never knew him as well as other Old Timers here. There were mostly Exers where I originally posted that Article, as there are here. I don’t believe Roland ever left The Path. Since most Posters never reveal their real Names when they post, and use Avatars, he very well could have been reading and posting there, or here, using an Avatar. Other RSSB Reps have posted using Avatars. Walking Now was one I remember. For all we know, Gurinder might even post here using an Avatar. In all the years I have posted, I have always used my real Name, because I never had, nor have, any thing to hide. Posters using secret Avatars, some times, more than one, can lie, stir up propaganda, start riots, slander others, destroy friends, than vanish. I have met many such Trolls over the years. People who use their real Names usually stand by what they post, as I do.

Jim Sutherland

@ Jim- I can tell you are a man of substance just by reading your posts.

I am just a guy in my 40s trying to find answers to the most elusive questions which can be asked.

I was initiated by a rep of Gurinder Singh. I am not ashamed to say the reason I wrote on this blog was due to being lost.

I have lived a pretty decent life in that people call me a nice guy but I lost faith about RSSB when I started to read about the Masters business dealings - I am now not sure that I am on the right path. If I was to tell this to my family they would think I have lost my way or someone has corrupted me.

I just want to know if Gurinder Singh is the real McCoy- I am rather disheartened after I heard that he said the master doesn’t come at death and he is only a guide. Does this mean we get no help. And if we can not go within without Grace - who pulls us up.

This is the biggest bug I carry on weak shoulders.

Kind regards

Thanks Jim, for sharing your inner experiences. First time I have heard a satsangi doing this.

Much appreciated.

Arjuna, .....I feel your pain! He is a dissapointment to me as well, considering he not only is Charan's chosen Successor for RSSB, but also is in the Family Blood Line. But he was never my Master, and had he been, knowing what I know now, I would not have been drawn to him.

My Fate is already cast, as a Charan Initiate. But your Fate is a little different than mine, yet perhaps not as serious as you imagine. I will try to give you my most honest assessment, here, because surely, there are other Gurinder Initiates that are in your very same perdictiment that mght read here.

But first, and foremost, you and the others must decide for yourselves how to proceed.

I was once at your Cross Road with Sant Thakar Singh, and chose to Up Grade to Charan Singh, to RSSB from the Ruhani Kirpal Singh Lineage. I thought, and still do, it was an Up Grade.

So, if now, Gurinder Singh was my Initiating Master, I would also have to decide whether to either leave the RSSB Lineage and seek another Sant Mat Master, ......or,....leave the Sant Mat Path altogether. So, what would I do?

Well, first and foremost, I would certainly have to be drawn to another Master that The Father has Marked me for! If I ever was drawn to such a Master, before I die, I certainly would seek Initiation from Him. You are still young. You have lots of time. Many future Masters may arrive on tne Sant Mat scene before you die. I never even came to the Sant Mat Path until I was 45 years old!

But when you originally came to the Sant Mat Path, was it because of being convinced that Sant Mat was the Highest and Purest Path, and you felt you were surely Marked by The Father to enter the Path and start your Journey to return Home and escape The Wheel of 84,.........or,.........was it because of your love for Gurinder Singh?

If the later, than nothing can destroy real Love, not even the misbehavior of your Master. So you have no other choice but to stay Chained to him, because Love has no other choice.

But if it was the Sant Mat Path that originally took you prisoner, than, you have no problem at all, because you have already inherited the protection of ALL Sant Mat Masters, because, ALL Masters are the same inside!

If Gurinder does not show up at death, Charan, Sawan, Jamael, or Swamiji wll!

So, have no fear. Master will be there to meet you and I , and all Initiates who are still on the Path as best as they, ( we ) are able, when we die.

You had to go thru the same Application Process that I had to in order to be accepted in to the RSSB Lineage, so you certainly could not have came in blind, nor naive about the Path.

It is a Path of Meditation, and all rewards are found INSIDE. You have inherited a Genuine Technique to enter The Kingdom of God Within. How you use it, only is your choice, and can only be used or discarded by YOU.

So, Gurinder Sngh’s actions now have nothing to do with keeping you from entering inside your very own Temple to meet the Master within. Only YOU can decide to stay outside and not enter in. You already own the Ticket to board the Viceroy Express to Sach Khand!

Use it,....or loose it.

Unless you are convinced there is a better and higher purer Path than Sant Mat, your only choice, is as I have tried to outline above. That’s how I would proceed if I was at your Cross Road.

Radha Soami Brother,

Jm Sutherland

@ Jim. Wow that has really blown my circuits out.

I will respond in depth later but in response to your question - I was born into a family who were on the path. My Mother was initiated by the Great Master when she was but a child.

I only concern now is- does the initiation work? Is still a bullet loaded with power fired from a gun or just a bullet lying on the table?

Speak sn.

RS Brother

Jim, I have watched quite a few of Jurgen Ziewe youtubes and also downloaded his book "Multi-Dimensional Man" onto my mini-ipad some years ago.

If he and many others have had out of body experiences travelling in the different spiritual realms, why do we need a Master?

You yourself have had experiences and you did not see the Master?

Jen, ...Jurgen was a TMer, Desciple, early on. What I get from him, is that there is more to explore inside, than we have time for, in a single life. Also, that also indicates there IS after life continuation, because of his meeting his parents and family there.

If you can honestly admit that all you know presently, you could have just as well received with out a Master or from Charan and RSSB, and every one who reads your confessions and believes you,....than they don’t need a Master.

As for me, ........I am what I am because I followed the Path set out for me as each door opened. I never seemed to have had any other choices as my life opportunities and desires unfolded.

I saw many Masters during my Astral travels, some with Turbans, some with Head Wrappings, as the Arabs and Christian Prophets of old wore, and many with nothing on their heads. But when I encountered them, none of them spoke or tried to communicate with me, either audably, or telepathically. They just all stayed still, and stared at me. I believe they were the Astral Shells left behind by their Souls that had either reincarnated physically, or rose to the Causal Realm. These Astral shells were like Zombies, not yet disintegrated.

Also, Astral bodies are able to Shape Shift, as corroborated by both Jurgan and Ishwar Puri, which I have also seen and experienced inside. That alone explains much confusion.

Nothing prevents any Sant Mat Initiate from not only exploring other Paths, but trying them out. If you ever find any thiing better, or more convincing that compells you to completely sever your Sant Mat Chains and go for a new one, or proceed on your own, than who am I to stand in your way?

As for me, I use every thing of value I have been gifted by Sant Mat and especially from RSSB, but I also use all of my other Christian, Rosicrucian, Martinist Gifts as Eternity Insurance, and unless any thing of greater value is offered to me, I will die before too many more years as I am now, and remembered as long as a fart in the wind by not only my family and friends, but by all who ever knew me including members of this Church.

Jim Sutherland

Hi Arjuna
Is fear of death your principle motivation for meditation and interest in Sant Mat?

When and where were you initiated?
Also, I'm curious to know what your experience was when you have seen Baba Ji.

Hi Arjuna
Is fear of death the principle reason behind your interest in the path? Or?...

When were you initiated?

Hi Jim,

I do enjoy your posts and your sense of humour as in being remembered "as long as a fart in the wind".

Interesting what you have experienced in encountering different beings who are likely Astral Shells (something new to me) also the illusionary effect of astral bodies shape shifting.

I do appreciate following the Sant Mat rules of vegetarianism, no alcohol / drugs, living a moral life etc, probably helps us to evolve into a more elevated next life experience. It seems we are going to need a strong resolve and will power, even more than on this planet.

@ Spencer - in response to your question I have always had experiences which I can’t explain whilst awake. I am interested in understanding and know the creator of this play.

You ask if it is fear! Yes I want a true guide who will be there within as there will be forces you cannot fathom. The Dark Prince will not let you through that easy - would you go anywhere really bad with a guide? Would you go for a walk in to gang territory at 2am? Alone??? No I didn’t think so.

I am sick of conmen and fraudsters - I just want a real guide!!!! Is that too much to ask!!!!

To Jen,......
I first heard of “ Astral Shells” after reading “ The Secret Doctrine” by H.P. Blavatsky many yeas ago, even before I even heard of Sant Mat.

She called the Astral Realm “ Kama Luka” as I recall. “The shell in Kama Loka is known as the Kama Rupa, meaning “desire form.” It is soulless and any surviving intelligence it has is basic and automatic. It has no individual consciousness of its own. It is just the amalgamation of the dregs of the lower nature from the lifetime just ended.

It will remain in Kama Loka until all its remaining passion and force completely wears out and then it will disintegrate entirely and cease to be. This may take weeks, months, or years, again determined by the force and amount of sensuality.”

There is a Lady who occasionally reads here, and posts using an Avatar who believes that HPB was one of the lives her Soul lived as. She used to have a Theosophy Web site, and was very active in posting at RSS , because she is a Charan Singh Initiate, But the EXers ran her off along with Michael Martin and I because we didn’t spout the Party Line. Also, the Core posters at Lane’s RSS site were Jews, mostly Sant Mat Exers who were Atheists, and this Lady , as HPB , was not shy about exposing her feelings about how the U.S. Govt. was under the Jurisdiction of Jews. That was 12-15 years ago, or so, but looking at the current situation, not much has changed. She might read this, and reminisce. But she no longer posts on these sites nor takes any positions.

As for my seeing Astral Shells, i even saw Michael Martin’s once! My Astral body was flying real fast, where ever it was going, and it met Mchael Martin’s Astral shell full body, which had not yet lost its form nor identification, including his mustache! Even his eyes were open, but he was just floating there, with no movement, and looked like a dead corpse. I only saw him that one time, which was a few years after he had died, so its difficult to know if his Astral body was a Shell, or still in shock from physicsl death. But as a Charan Initiate, and a real loyal one, I may add, he may have been in tne Causal Plane with Charan.

Jim Sutherland

Hi Arjuna:

Thank you for sharing your interest in pursuing a spiritual path with a true Guide.

Where there are copies, where there are fakes, there must be the original, and there is.

So when you see so many fakes, so much false information, or misleading information, and when you have so many doubts, then you are in the middle of the journey. Set your criteria for truth, and continue the investigation. But all that you see, actually reflects that somewhere in this house of mirrors is the original from which the others are taking their reflections. Each mirror says "It's Me! and I'm you!" but there is so much distortion in that house of mirrors.

To find that original, the true Guide out is part of the journey. So that is the work we each must undertake.

You mentioned the Dark Prince. I would be interested to hear more about your experience / beliefs about it.


@ Spencer - the problem is the Dark Prince is not “dark”. 😀

He is one of the original emanations from GOD!!!!

Also, the Core posters at Lane’s RSS site were Jews, mostly
Sant Mat Exers who were Atheists, and this Lady , as HPB , was
not shy about exposing her feelings about how the U.S. Govt. was
under the Jurisdiction of Jews.

I am curious about about the perception of Jewish influence by
HPB. In my experience this is typical of racist memes so I'm very
surprised to see it mentioned here.

To Jen,....
Yogi Charakara writes a Chapter about Astral Shells in one of his books.


Hi Arjuna:

You wrote:

"the problem is the Dark Prince is not “dark”. 😀
He is one of the original emanations from GOD!!!!"

Everything, at least as far as I am aware of, came from God.
Can you be a little more specific about what qualities makes this entity "dark" or not "dark" and your experience of it?


@ Spencer- why are you so interested in something that we should avoid??? Im curious :-)

ABRAXIS is the Dark Prince.



This is why I stopped going!!!!!!!!

Hi Arjuna

You wrote
"why are you so interested in something that we should avoid??? Im curious :-)"

I'm unfamiliar with your terminology and the source of your fears.
Hopefully you can expand?

@spencer let it go brother. Don’t spend a life time analysing words.

Don’t worry about my fears x

Astral plane is thoughts & causal plane is desires preceding thoughts, people you see there are not real, they are your own projections of your love/attachment with them. Only Shabd/Sound is real & above sound light due to increased frequency of vibration of sound current.

Proof: David Lane interview with Prof Bhagat Ram Kamal. He candidly tells David Lane that when Baba Faqir Chand told him that his own pure mind makes the image of Faqir Chand. He felt shocked by the honesty of Faqir Chand & from that day onwards, no image of Faqir Chand came, instead, he saw pure light without any image & what that light is " Pure Consciousness" / " Atomic Energy " / "Unified Field". But this brutal honesty is dangerous, the person loses all attachment to world, he becomes hard-hearted. Still, people who are doing meditation with love of Saint are better because love gives companionship to the Soul of a disciple.

Also, the Core posters at Lane’s RSS site were Jews, mostly
Sant Mat Exers who were Atheists, and this Lady , as HPB , was
not shy about exposing her feelings about how the U.S. Govt. was
under the Jurisdiction of Jews.

Sorry, Jim, I don't want to start a polemic, but these statements bother me.

How can someone speak definitively about the background of posters on
Lane's site? And why would they repeat such a racist meme?

Further, what is the basis for those assertions about HPM? The Theosophical
Society compelling debunks their substance:


Vinny writes,.....”Proof: David Lane interview with Prof Bhagat Ram Kamal. He candidly tells David Lane that when Baba Faqir Chand told him that his own pure mind makes the image of Faqir Chand.”

Me: Why are their opinions proof? Why do you believe either of them have more Authority or knowledge than me, to determine what is proof in Astral and Causal realms? Do you personally know any of us, or have you monitored our daily actvites , other than what we personally have shared with the Public?

Have YOU, personally, Vinny, spent a Tithe of your time meditating for a decade or more, doing Expoloration of Conciousness?

If not, you are in no position to base your proof on other people’s opinions and conjectures.

99% of the disincarnated entities I have seen inside during Meditation and Lucid dreams were complete strangers, unknown to me. So they were not projections of my own “love/attachments to them.”

To Dungeness, .......if you have any personal questions to me, then step out from hiding inside your Dungeon and reveal your real Name.

Then, I will honestly answer any question you ask me. I must have hit a nerve in your Dungen.

This is the “Open Comments” Thread, so why are you all of a sudden attempting to muzzle me? What do you have to hide? My comments started with Astral Shells, and I only mentioned HPB as corraboration as one of the references.

But, if you really want to acuse me of Racism,.....than you first need to come out f yoyr dungen, reveal who you really are, and why you are concerned about what I think, than we can openly communicate before this Open Church Jury. Other wise, stay hidden in your dungeon.

But, if you really want to acuse me of Racism,.....than you first need to come out f yoyr dungen, reveal who you really are, and why you are concerned about what I think, than we can openly communicate before this Open Church Jury. Other wise, stay hidden in your dungeon

Sure, you can say anything you like in Open Thread. That includes challenging
an overt appearance of racism. And no, I don't need to reveal my name. It's
not important. By your actions, you shall know them.

I'm speaking from my personal experience, mind [ Astral world ]becomes numb , Causal world [desires preceding thoughts] vanish due to numbing of mind. Sound current opens up, just like electricity rushing through wires. Only sound current & light created by its vibration are truths.
In my experience, it is the same "Atomic energy"/ Shabd which makes the electrons move in atom.
Conversely, I have no attachment/love with anyone, therefore I say love gives companionship, nothing else.

The link that Arjuna posted. I can understand how devastated some satsangis must have been when there was a death at the Science of the Soul Centre at Haynes Park, the hall where they held their satsangs.

Satsangis believe that the Master is their saviour and protector and this must have been very difficult for them. I wonder if Gurinder had anything to say about it?

Dungeness, why are you posting your comment 2 and even 3 times, gotta get your computer fixed 😬

Vinny, I agree with what you said in this last post. Its the prior post where I have disagreements with. So let's call it a Draw, and agree to disagree on how Proof becomes authoritve based on who claims it to be proof.

@ Jen - yes it is heart destroying losing anyone and yes it would be interesting to hear Gurinder speak on this. But they certainly appear to be in a pickle in this case.

My name is Arjuna Dev. And I think it’s important to reveal and not hide behind an avatar!!! In the army - we are trained to man up and eyes front. We hide from the enemy in plan sight. But shouldn’t in the web under an avatar loool.

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