How I became disillusioned with a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Today Arjuna left an intriguing question in a comment on my post, "Why I stayed with a religion for 35 years."

Hello Brian, I trust you are well?

May I ask a question and if you don't wish to reply - please don't. In what ways did you begin noticing Gurinder Singh was just as imperfect as the rest of us?

This may help this soul as I need closure on the above question.

Regards
Arjuna

I'm pleased to reply to you, Arjuna.

Here's some experiences that come to mind. Understand: my memory about some details of what I'll describe below regarding Gurinder Singh Dhillon is sort of hazy, since many years have passed. But I'm quite confident that the basic message of what you'll read is correct.

Gurinder Singh

Irritation with a manuscript. l heard this story from someone who either had written a draft of a book to be published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB, the organization headed by the guru) or had brought a draft written by someone else to the guru. Regardless, I was told that when the person entered a room where Gurinder Singh was meeting with several people, he picked up the draft and threw the stack of papers at them. 

I had the impression that the guru was angry about the manuscript. As you might expect from the way ardent disciples act around the guru, the person who told me the story seemed to feel that what Gurinder Singh did was justified -- maybe as some sort of lesson that the person needed to learn. 

However, this story disturbed me at the time, and it still does today. If anyone else had done what the guru did, a CEO of a company, say, we'd say "He acted like a jerk." I no longer believe that a guru's negative actions should be interpreted generously. If a guru acts badly, let's just say it like it is -- acting badly. 

Upset with a photo being taken. In the 1990s Gurinder Singh began visiting the United States. Since I was learning karate at the time, I ended up being assigned to security seva (service) when the guru gave talks in Palm Springs, California. I remember being with the guru and other people when he was walking around the venue, an auditorium complex. I believe Gurinder Singh had just visited the child care area.

We were outside on a walkway when the guru saw someone quite a ways away taking a photo of him. At this time the guru had a strict rule, no photographs. But the person taking the photo was on public property, as was Gurinder Singh. Nonetheless, some RSSB security people dashed over to the person with the camera and demanded that they surrender the film (this was before digital cameras).

In retrospect, this was a ridiculous demand.

Like I said, the guru was out in public. It is totally legal to take photos of people in a public place. Yet for some reason that I still don't understand, Gurinder Singh was adamant that no photographs be taken of him, and if any were, the photo had to be destroyed. Now I'm bothered both by the fact that the guru had this attitude, and that his devotees (of which I was one, back then) were so willing to comply with anything the guru wanted to have done.

Jiti Khanna's resignation as an RSSB representative. On another visit, Gurinder Singh visited Vancouver, B.C. Once again, I got to do some security seva. Mostly I, along with other volunteers, hung out at the place the guru was staying, a home belonging to Jiti Khanna, who was the RSSB representative for British Columbia and the Pacific Northwest (where I lived, in Oregon; I wrote about a charming episode with Dr. Khanna in "From Sant Mat to Buddhism.")

It was a fascinating experience.

Back then I was very devoted to the guru. One night I was assigned to stand outside the window of the room where Gurinder Singh was sleeping. At 3 am I recall wondering what the heck I would do if a van, say, pulled up with armed Sikh separatists who wanted to do the guru harm. I figured that the only thing I could do was try to stop them, even though I couldn't, because it would be too shameful to have failed to try to protect the guru, even if I lost my life.

Anyway, I thought it must be wonderful for Jiti Khanna and his family to be hosting the guru in their house -- getting all up close and personal with him. So it was quite shocking to hear that soon after Gurinder Singh's visit, Dr. Khanna resigned as RSSB representative and reportedly became a Buddhist. I have no idea what led him to do this. It just struck me as strange that after having some intimate contact with the guru, Dr. Khanna did what he did.

What did Jiti Khanna see in Gurinder Singh? I don't know. But if he had seen a God in Human Form, as the guru is supposed to be, seemingly he wouldn't have resigned his representative position and turned to Buddhism.

Life is Fair cover screwup. I spent several years writing a book for Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), the Indian spiritual organization currently headed up by Gurinder Singh, who succeeded Charan Singh. I agreed to write Life is Fair after being told that one of Charan Singh's wishes before he died was to have a fairly short book that described the karmic rationale for being a vegetarian. 

Since Charan Singh was my guru, I felt this was a wonderful opportunity to do some volunteer service in the name of my guru. I ended up traveling to India to finish up the book with the help of Faith Singh, who was in charge of the English language books published by RSSB. 

After I got home, the process of publishing started. I recall that I got an email from one of the volunteers working in the Publications Department that there was a problem with the first batch of books, several thousand copies I seem to remember. Gurinder Singh, had personally chosen the type of paper for the cover. But it turned out to be too thick, so it was difficult to open up the pages of the book. 

When I got a copy of the book and saw the problem with the cover, I had the thought, "But how could this happen if the guru is supposed to be a Perfect Living Master?" However, at the time I believed that whatever the guru did had some deeper meaning, even if his action appeared imperfect. Now, though, I consider that Gurinder Singh just made a mistake with the cover.

So here's four stories that are some of the reasons I became disillusioned with the guru.

As I said in the above-linked post, I also was bothered by seeing that disciples/initiates who had the closest contact with Gurinder Singh appeared to be no more "spiritual" than me or any other ordinary person.

Comments

[vinny]

Problem with gurudom philosophies / sant mat / sufism / devotional systems based on guru or murshid is that they fail to deliver rapidly what that they promise. Why they fail to deliver rapidly ??
They are trying to douse the mind by invoking emotions of blind love for guru / murshid and his injunctions.
Blind faith numbs the mind initially but its side effects are detrimental to disciple.
Output vs Input ratio is poor in devotional systems . In breath control based Yogic systems no blind faith on any guru is required so the disciple is saved from side effects of blind faith.
Effect of numbing mind by controlling breath is achieved rapidly . Why such yogic systems are not promoted by sant mat organisations ?? They might be having intrinsic fear of collapse of sant mat / sufism / devotional systems.

[vinny]

No category has been assigned to such an important system of Yoga . Akin to best kept secret of " Manhattan Project " which can disrupt / shred any metaphysical philosophy within minutes.

[Meenakshi Singh]

He was in Spain working before coming back to India to accept his naming as the next religious head of RSSB in 1990.

[vinny]

Breath control over a period of time freezes mind & etheric realm opens up which is called out of body experience / samadhi . Body is suspended in hibernation . Himalayan Mystics hid from the people that they are abiding in energy of etheric realm .

Fifteen minutes of breath control can prove it how it numbs mind , how thoughts vanish .
Due to unnecessary secrecy of science of breath / yoga ; religions & metaphysical philosophies started pushing people on the path of blind faith / devotion / gurudom / murshid .

[RS Sceptic]

There is no such thing as a master.
Everyone is born equal.
We are human beings and nobody has the answers.
Nobody has special powers

But people are gullible

As children we believe in Santa Claus
And the tooth fairy

We grow up and realise there is no santa

But we still want to believe

So we believe in

Mediums
Tarot cards
Astrology
Religions
God
Masters

Why?

Because as children we believed
And something must fill the vacuum left behind

We like to believe
Makes us feel good

It feels good to know there is a god looking after us

But there isn't

It feels good that there are masters

But there are not. Just charlatans

And brainwashed mental people like 777
Who lost the plot long ago
And talk gibberish
And some idiots mistake it for wisdom

Maybe 777 qualifies for being the next master

[Arjuna]

Thank you Brian for replying to my question - I noticed so much about the master at Haynes and I am more observant than most. It is a con I am afraid perhaps Dan Brown can investigate and write a novel which will eclipse the Da Vinci Code. Talking of which I believe master was said that Da Vinci was master etc. Really ? He prosposed advanced weapons ahead of his time and starved a town under siege killing 2 thousand people by using his genious to divert a river which took water there. Fascinating hey

Thank you again - Arjuna

[Raghu]

Does anyone have access to the TIME magazine article written by Dr. Khanna? it doesn't seem to be available on Google anymore.

[Blogger Brian]

Raghu, it was a letter to the editor in a Canadian TIME magazine issue. There's still a post about it on the Yahoo RadhaSoami Studies group. See:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/topics/52562

But probably you have to be a member of the group to see it. I've copied it in below. Dr. Khanna is referring to Shania Twain (singer?) being associated with RSSB.

DR. J.K. has gone public. Charan's and RSSB former rep. We should get
him to join this group. Welcome Back CTD!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In [email protected], connectthedots_99
wrote:
> This excerpt was published in the Canadian circulation Dec 30 issue
> of TIME letters. (the US circulation included only domestically
> originated letters).
>
> "I was struck by the lack of joie de vivre in photos of Shania and
> the observation by some that she had become a robot. The story
> mentioned that Shania was a devotee of Sant Mat, a strain of Sikh
> mysticism. She may rediscover the sparkle in her life by letting
go

[Bob]

I've heard in years past that Gurinder is quite wealthy from stock investments in the pharma industry via family connections. Any concrete data on this?

[Osho Robbins]

Gurinder has said that it is not "Perfect Master"
he said that the translation of "PURA GURU" is wrong

it means "COMPLETE" nor perfect.
The word "perfect" has all sorts of connotations.
Whereas "complete" is a pretty ordinary word.

With the internet, it's hard to hide facts.

in the past - it was easy. Just make a claim and it's done.

So Gurinder has watered it all down.

so the new teachings are that he has no special powers
he is not coming at your death
this is not the only path
he is not perfect
there are no regions
meditation will not get you there

there is no 'there' to get to

RSSB followers should be freaking out
and saying "What the fuck?"

but instead - they just go into denial and say
"nothing has changed. everything is the same"

[s*]

Hi Osho,

Everything is changed very true.
What is the difference between ´perfect and ´ćomplete actually??

The teachings and atmosphere..everything is changed.
Also maharaji Charan Singh didńt want buildings everywhere.
The current master does just that..
Maharaji said he stand garant for the diciple babaji says not never such a thing etc..
..etc.

[One Initiated]

Sceptic,

"And brainwashed mental people like 777"

Try to be a little more generous Sceptic. 777 is around 80 years of age and is one of the most spiritually advanced around this forum.
Those who are blessed and have HIS Amazing Grace are able to understand the bits from what 777 writes here.

If we remove everything on this blog except Brian's and 777's content, this will become one of the very popular book on Sant Mat.

[vinny]

Gross body = Physical body
Astral body = Thoughts
Causal body = Desires preceding thoughts
Soul = unit of etheric energy

Enlightenment = separating soul from three sheaths of gross , astral & causal bodies.

Logical Method [ not blind faith devotional method ] = step-wise [ not abrupt ] self control / yam niyam / yogic do's and don'ts regarding diet and vital fluid / semen conservation along-with Yogic breathing to numb mind.

Scientific aspect : Electrons have been revolving around nucleus since billions of years by using energy from etheric realm . There is no diesel generator there to power electrons.

There is enough energy in empty cup to boil all oceans of world.
Himalayan mystics abide in etheric realm of limitless energy. Etheric realm is powering the whole universe by giving energy to electrons and sub atomic particles. Same ether has been mentioned in Albert Einsteins Theory of Relativity.

[RS Sceptic]

dear one initiated

you said:
"777 is around 80 years of age and is one of the most spiritually advanced around this forum.
Those who are blessed and have HIS Amazing Grace are able to understand the bits from what 777 writes here."

Well actually that might explain quite a bit. Maybe he's getting a bit senile in his old age. It was nothing personal. I just used him as an example. He might be a really nice guy in real life.

It is just that his comments don't make any sense - and I mean to anyone. Including you.

He writes such cryptic comments that they don't don;t make any sense at all.
I am sorry if you are offended. It doesn't seem like he is.

I don't consider there is any wisdom in his type of comments and he cannot have a logical and meaningful debate with anyone because he is just too far gone.

Maybe that is what happens when you have spent all your like on a spiritual path like RSSB or similar.

I could write the same type of comments. Does it mean I become a man of great wisdom and insight?

Once again - it's nothing personal.

The main point was - there are no masters, or God, or tooth fairies.

[Osho Robbins]

S* wrote:

"Also maharaji Charan Singh didńt want buildings everywhere.
The current master does just that.."

They are very different characters. Charan Singh was very meticulous in his dealings to make sure he didn't mis-use his position.

Gurinder Singh is a businessman. He has different priorities. He is on a mission to expand RSSB and make it a significant organisation.

Charan Singh had no such ambitions.

Technically there is nothing wrong with expansion as long as it is done with the same ethics and standards as the teachings apply to the disciples.

Charan Singh was a simple man. He did not want to be responsible for misleading anyone which is why he made it totally clear that he had no spiritual progress. He just did his duty.

That is a very admirable trait, and I personally have a lot of respect for that level of honesty.

Gurinder Singh has also made certain things clear

(1) I am not coming at the time of death.
He could have carried on with the old belief but chose not to.

(2) There are no regions - there is only the ONE
Again he could have continued with the duality teachings

Among the sant mat gurus - I am not aware of any of the others making these bold statements.

The rest of them are carrying on with the same dogma.

And please - don't say I am making this up - as it's getting a bit old and by now there is way to much evidence proving that the teachings have been changed.

Gurinder, does not however have any qualms about using his position to make money.

[s*]

Thanks Osho..Yes I know..
About both of them..
And I loved them..deeply.
But it was my own love and is now just bhakti..
Not for anyone special anymore.
My life was totaly for santmat and master.
But i have had lot of sorrow..more then I could bare(pangs)
That was not good and I felt abondened.
So it is very good to come loose of all that.
The beauty one can keep..
It is very healthy so see for what it really is.

I dońt like the still going on talks about transmigration and the NEED of a Master.
I feel that not as good,people get bound to the ´Master´also out of fear!!
s*

[vinny]

When Baba Faqir Chand asked these gurus " Do you go anywhere to manifest before disciple?? "
These gurus could not answer his blunt question . Why ?? Because these gurus are morally corrupt people who can ascribe any natural phenomenon to themselves for gurudom propagation over innocent gullible disciples. After Himalayan Mystics & Jesus Christ , Baba Faqir Chand is the most honest mystic to grace this earth.

[Osho Robbins]

s*, you wrote
"My life was totally for santmat and master."

Well that is what the teachings require. It was also the same for me.

It was a total consuming passion

My life had no meaning other than to reach Sach khand
and hang out with Sat Purush in Anami Desh, no less.

Little did I know at the time that this was just a fairy tale
just like we create the fairy tale of santa claus for our children.

And there was no Sach khand, no Anami and and no Sat Purush

It was all just a fairy tale - to entice the seeker, to feed his ambition.

once you start the path, slowly the realizations dawns.
that all this seeking is nothing but an ego trip.
it is the ego that wants to attain and achieve and get recognized.
It is the ego that wants to get to Sach khand.

The same ambition and greed that wanted things of the world
is just as alive and well - it has just changed direction and is now
after "spiritual" things.

In the meantime (and it's a long meantime) it satisfies itself with
seva to get the feeling of importance.

If you end up being a head sevadar, speaker or secretary, all the better.

The real path is to let go of the ego, ambition and seeking.
and arrive at now.

Where you always were.

and eventually to realize there is no separate self

there is no "you" so you cannot get anywhere

The master cannot come at death because there is no "you" to take
and nowhere to take you.

Only in duality does this need and desire for self-preservation exist.

Almost every question at haynes park, when the guru comes, is about "I" or "ME"

"Please give me Grace"
"Please come at my death"
"Please help me to meditate"
"Please take me to Sach Khand"
"Please show me your radinat form"
etc

Nobody says "I want nothing"

Yet the sant mat teachings say that the ego is the barrier

The very idea of meditation is full of ego
because the only reason to meditate is to get somewhere
the non-ambitious person cannot meditate
(unless it's a different type of meditation like zen or Tao based)

If you do everything for a reason, then what is the reason to meditate?

Those who say they are doing it for the love of the master are kidding
themselves, because there is a reason to love
the reason is to get the spiritual treasure which he has

you don't just love random people walking the streets

the mind is cunning - it always has a reason

[Anonymous]

@Osho Robbins

Regarding Radiant Form.

Somewhere on this forum, you mentioned that you had reached the Radiant Form.

I believe you have been initiated by multiple masters.
Can you please share whose Radiant Form you saw inside? Was the Radiant Form mind generated? Were you contemplating that particular Master more than others or what do you think led you to see that radiant form? (I am assuming that you don't believe it was genuine). Can you also please share why you think that seeing that form was not genuine and more of a mind related phenomenon? Is it based on what Fakir Chand said or is there something in your experience that led to that conclusion?

[777]

OSHO
So Gurinder has watered it all down.

so the new teachings are that he has no special powers
Correct His Master Charan does it ALL

he is not coming at your death
Correct
His Master does that and uses the form needed

this is not the only path
Correct
Charan confirmed this when he said :
"but I don't give you the telephone number"
There are Masters who come only for One disciple He said

Of course the Method is the only Method
realize the sweet Sound

he is not perfect
Correct
His Master is
but Gurinder is complete obedient

there are no regions
Correct
but you can make them
There are levels of consciousness, taking form

meditation will not get you there
Correct
Love for the Sound will
Meditation will give Love

there is no 'there' to get to
Correct
We are already there but suffer°° ignorance, amnesia & more

RSSB followers should be freaking out
Only to a faster & sweeter Method, . .

and saying "What the fuck?"
You do that, . . . don't preach !

but instead - they just go into denial and say
"nothing has changed. everything is the same"

You are in the business of to telling people to be less happy
like saying to the bride
" don'T "

RSSceptic : . . noted

°°
the word suffer is wrong

777

ps
a minor subject :
https://youtu.be/Er9D00DXQQs

[777]

Another PS

You are 100%, correct Sceptic

No single line I wrote is understandable for NON-initiated

After all you don't try to understand the Chinese workgroup of spacial 4-D genetics
You wouldn t insult them but regret your voyage

maybe you r less disappointed now

My age, . . I mentioned 2 or 3 times I guess since I m a member here

Anywat in the middle of millions
who very well understand
2 or 5 non understanders here is not so bad as a result

777

Love <3

-

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Ananymous

At the time, I was actively following Darshan, who in my opinion, at that time was the most amazing master.

I was in love with him. He was everything.

Looking back - it was all a lie, because I had so much invested in that path.

I convinced myself that I loved him.

In reality, I was just in love with the idea that I love him, because that was beneficial for my spiritual progress.

I am saying this now - but would never have even enetertained that possibility at that time.

I was brainwashed.

and I consider that all RSSB followers are brainwashed - just as I was.

everything in my experience convinced me 100% that I was on the true path.

Darshan knew me personally. I was close to him. I used to write poetry to him and about him. I was in love.

I even read my poems on stage a few times in front of the huge sangat at Kirpal Ashram.

I used to experience the Radiant form of Darshan. And I was 100% convinced that it was true.

I now say it was mind generated.

Why? because all phenomena is mind generated

I wasn't even contemplating the form - when I closed my eyes - that is all that was there.

In meditation, I would leave the body and meet the astral form which is the radiant form.

But now I say - it is not real.

no more real than dreams.

We dream every night - but we know that dreams are mind-generated.

The mind creates the dream.

The mind also creates all spiritual experience.

In fact all experience and anything you see, feel, hear is from the mind.

[Osho Robbins]

Hi 777

well, that's about the first coherent message you have ever posted.

I can at least understand what you are saying

except of course the
love <3 at the end - no idea what that means.

I will put the reply in bold

OSHO
So Gurinder has watered it all down.

so the new teachings are that he has no special powers
Correct His Master Charan does it ALL

No - it means no master has any special powers.
Charan is the first person to admit he is an ordinary person.
He never even claimed any spiritual status.
and just to make sure there are no mis-understandings
and people don't mistake it for humility
he had the original diary entries printed - as they were
in his original handwriting to confirm to the world
that he was in a dilemma over the gaddi
and that he has no special powers

if anyone still wants to believe masters have special powers
after such clear evidence - it can be called nothing but delusion

Certainly Charan Singh has made it clear and is not responsible if
people still want to believe in special powers

he is not coming at your death
Correct
His Master does that and uses the form needed

again - thanks for a reply I can understand and respond to.

Gurinder has made it clear - I heard him personally
not hearsay.

He said "How can the master come? where there is only ONE?"

He quoted Paltu "Paltu - there is only ONE - there is no other"

if master comes - then there are two
YOU and MASTER - that is duality

The purpose is to realize ONE - then the question of a master coming
does not arise. That is a duality perspective. It is the disciples desire to
be saved.

The Buddha famously said "There is no saviour. Not even me"

this is not the only path
Correct
Charan confirmed this when he said :
"but I don't give you the telephone number"
There are Masters who come only for One disciple He said

Of course the Method is the only Method
realize the sweet Sound

Like I said earlier - no master can come
if a disciple experiences a master coming
that is simply his mind creating the illusion
lots of illusions get created when a person is dying

The Method is the only Method?
not sure what you mean there
they cryptic part of you is coming out again
meaningless statement

like "the fruit is the only fruit" - what does that mean?

"Realize the sweet sound" - again - it's just a statement.

like saying
"Pray to Sweet Jesus" "Submit to the Great Allah" - just statements

he is not perfect
Correct
His Master is
but Gurinder is complete obedient

You are just trying to make it fit.
He said "the word PURA has been wrongly translated
it means COMPLETE - not PERFECT.

where do you get the word OBEDIENT from?

and it doesn't even fit

We can all clearly see that Gurinder is nothing like Charan.
So what exactly is he obeying?
Did Charan Singh tell him to buy property?
use his position to make millions for his sons?
and the big one

isolate Babani? after so many years of service to RSSB
Charan was close to Babani
So if Gurinder is OBEYING, why was Babani still not close?

Has Charan suddenly lost his respect for Babani?
Charan was very close to Babani
When he stopped all audio tapes - only two were kept
his own and Babani's

what does that tell you?

so it is clearly not Charan Singh working through Gurinder

it is Gurinder - he has his own style.

there are no regions
Correct
but you can make them
There are levels of consciousness, taking form

Make them? this is getting silly.

There are no tooth fairies - but you can make them

There is no God - but you can make the God

Levels of consciousness taking form?
Hmmm... and fairies taking form too?

meditation will not get you there
Correct
Love for the Sound will
Meditation will give Love

there is no 'there' to get to
Correct
We are already there but suffer°° ignorance, amnesia & more

there is not "there or "here" - no distance - no distinction between here and there
sure - we can be ignorant - but then why propagate the ignorance
by saying you need to meditate to get there?

You are in the business of to telling people to be less happy

where the fuck did that come from?

If delusion keeps you happy carry on

but saying there are no tooth fairies does not mean I want you to be unhappy. I am saying tooth fairies not needed in order to be happy.

Please don't take offence to anything - I am just debating
nothing personal.
Also - I have nothing against RSSB - I am just pointing things out
that don't make sense.
I used to be an ardent follower - but I am not against it now
I still go to satsangs sometimes when Gurinder comes.
mainly for entertainment value

he is entertaining.

[777]

So , you are not even an exer
So ; you can't have a clu

I'm sorry
Perhaps start with the youtube link I gave

No single line I wrote is understandable for NON-initiated

777

[777]

s*

We have So much respect for U !!

Right, . . . no fear

RS

777

-

[vinny]

People obsessed with fear / elation of death are more likely to fall in the trap of gurudom.
If anyone examines closely at the time of sleep / in dream state this universe ceases to exist and we enter another aspect of consciousness. We are already experiencing death daily when our consciousness is trapped by dreams / deep sleep . Eternal life is state of samadhi when soul cannot be trapped by astral world / thoughts ; causal world / desires ; sleep / unconsciousness.
These gurudom paths are generating intense emotions in mind which are rattling the peaceful state required to enter samadhi .

[One Initiated]

Dear Osho,

I think this has been discussed so many times on this forum, but since Brian has also posted this afresh and so you are also making the same points again, I would like to add some context discussed earlier as well again here, just for the debating purpose:

Per your concepts, everything discussed around the regions aka the state of consciousness is just the delusions.
Also you go to the extent of claiming others' experience, without knowing a bit about it, as delusions, and I assume mainly because you have not yet tasted that yet.

So the concepts that you are holding, can you explain the details to the following based on your theory ?

Let's just reset and come back to the square one:

If you behead any animal or a human being and then put the head back, connect it nerve by nerve and tissue by tissue, which is fairly possible in the current medical advancements we are living in. Infuse any lost blood, give the enough electrical signal to get the brain, heart and other organs to boot up.
STILL - the body will never get up and running as it was just before you beheaded them.
And I can assume that you believe that it won't get up and running because it will be Dead.

And the force which was making it alive earlier is now missing in the body and is not coming back in the body.

If there was some force, vitality, soul - name the word which suits your intellect, which is clear that there was something because your absolutely proven medical procedures are not making it alive again and that it is no longer here again, and if that soul is not here then it must now be somewhere.

So the above signifies two things:
1) there was something in the body when the body was alive
2) that something has gone somewhere because it's not in the body as the body is no longer alive, it's dead.

What are your thoughts on this ?

I am sure you must have witnessed the demise of someone from your family or you have not ? What do you call the episode of Death of someone, do you call that as delusion too ? or you have some other concepts to explain what exactly the Death is ?

[Jim Sutherland]

I was at the Beas Dera about a week ago for my first time since being initiated by Charan Singh Feb 4, 1990 just before he left his body. I have been totally honest posting here, up to date, ( unlike many ) , so in a spirit of sharing, I feel it is my obligation to share my true feelings as I experienced my first visit to the Dera. This Generic summary is what I posted on my Facebook site, as only a very few of my friends are Sant Mat Initiates and have no interest in hearing what I think.

I wondered what it would be like to go there, after meditating for 30 years and hearing and reading about all th stories. My young Friend in Delhi motivated me to go there, as soon as he saw on my Facebook site I was going to Bhutan and Nepal. With out his help, I would never have been able to go there. I even failed for weeks trying to buy our Train Tickets from Delhi to Beas , and he guided me step by step until I was able to buy our tickets. He also helped me in many other ways. I am greatful. He is a dedicated Gurinder Singh Initiate, as are many who read this site.

Before I share my Generic Facebook summary, every one shoud know that Gurinder explicitly stated in one of the Q & A sessions he gave Westeners in the Hostel 6 Audatorium that he nor any other human being , is a “Perfect” Master. He said he has discarded that old Sant Mat term, and prefers using “ True” Masters. He did not say he was one of those. He said ALL material with in all species, including humans, are imperfect.

He said that he has banged his head against the wall so many times trying to deal with imperfect beings, that he has had to pad the wall behind his chair so as not to hurt himself! ( the entire wall is padded like a padded cell.)

He also said some other remarks that I don’t think were appropriate to discuss in such a mixed group of male/female audience of about 2500 I would estimated. In fact, of every thing I have ever heard said about him, these remarks proved to me by uncertian terms his humaness, and would have been remarks that Master Chran Singh would have never used even in his most most intimate Disciples discussions, even jokingly.

Sorry my experience was not more positive and uplifting, but I have nver held back ex pressing my true feelings. That’s why I am banned from posting on most Radhasoami sites including Lane’s old site who, by the way, has now become a “ Completely changed man” since visting the Dera this year, as told to me by the Western Rep. I answered that “ That is great,
but Lane needs to come back on the forums he bashed the Gurus on, the last 20 years, and tell all that he drove Way from Sant Mat why he has changed, and mend the wounds.

Regardless of my experience, I STILL belive that Sant Mat is the most Spiritual Path of all I have ever encountered.

Before I share my generic Facebook SummRy, I should share that when ever I went outside the Hostel 6 Compound, I was ALWAYS greeted by “ Radhasoami” with folded hands by every Satsangi I met. Inside the Western Hostel 6 Compund, I hardly was ever greeted, but thought I must I not have even existed, much less greeted.!

On my Facebook site, I share many of the phots I was able to take before entering the Dera, as well as some other India sites durng my 11 day tour in in including Soami Bagh.

Here is my Facebook Summery.

“Our 5.5 hour Train ride to Beas ended up taking 7 hours! We were late getting to the Radha Soami Satsang Dera. Quite an experience. No photos allowed and they confiscated our phones coming in. The only way to contact any one out side is to buy a secret code from 500 Rs that lets you call out on their private phone , but no calls can come in. I had a real hard time trying to call out to my Taxi we hired to come pick us up from Amritsar. There are so many rules at the Dera, that my best way to describe my experience there is, to me, it felt like I might have been a White Collar Convict sentenced to serve time in a U.S. Federal Penitentiary. But I went, I saw, I experienced, and now I know. I felt absolutely no Dejavu there. The Train up was fun. Notice the Toilet dumps directly on to the rail road tracks! Good Organic fertilizer.”

[Jim Sutherland]

I had posted the following on my Facebook site, and have devided I may as well share it here as well, conne ting a few dots to my prior post about my Dera visit.

“Some Dera photos out side. The big Gate is the entering Amritsar. We were able to walk inside and see Dera to see the Great Master’s old Sant Sang Building in all of its Pristine Glory. But no one is allowed any where near it. It is all gated off with Security watching that no photos are taken from possible smuggled cameras! Guess I’ll just have to look at my old books and remember I saw it. Other then there, I didn’t have time to see any thing else, as time was limited and reservations for the Bus had to be made days in advance to go any where. I did sit in Satsang with about 100,000 others listening to 1.5 hours of Shabds followed by 30 minutes of Q & As from Gurinder Singh, mostly answering questions to young people begging for Grace and Initiation. He initiated the day so was leaving. I was invited to attend, but it went from 7 AM until Noon and we left at 8:30 A.M. so I had to decline. Next day, another Satsang with 90 minutes of Shabd’s sung by various singers, then, Gurinder Singh showed up to give exactly 3 minutes of Darshan, then left while some one else gave Satsang that we had to listen to translations on ear buds we had to buy to connect to their Translators on loan. Seeing Gurinder Singh on a huge TV Monitor revealed his facial features and dad, sad eyes. He looked like he was some where else thank with his 100,000 adoring Devotees all wanting some miracle from him. Gurinder Singh gave the Westeners an hour open Q & A in English, but some one else took 20 minutes to talk, then some clown hogged another 20 minutes complaining about the food and changes since Charan Singh, while Gurinder Singh was seeming to enjoy it with others laughing. I was qued to ask my question, but never got the chance. Another female Engineer took another 15 minutes to hype her Engineering knowledge, and a few other questions ate the rest of the hour of which Gurinder promptly left. The Room held about 2500 I estimated. Gurinder ( to me ) acted like he was speaking to a room full of Elementary School Kids rather than seasoned Mystics. But, that was my personal interpretation. No one asked what I would recognize as a Spiritual question. Gurinder acted like a School Teacher instead of a Spiritual Master as far as I could see. No one seemed interested in asking Spiritual questions. One Indian complained that Doctors and Westerners were getting preferential treatment. Gurinder said they get what they need, and in turn, he gets what he needs from them. No doubt, there is money there, as it’s the cleanest little town or Institution I saw in all of India. The accommodation rooms were about like any clean Motel Room , and is the Main Cafeteria was clean, with the very basic vegetarian food ( Very Bland ) to survive on. One Guy complained that was not like the good old days with Charan Singh. Gurinder told him if he had wanted fancier food to go buy some at the Food Stalls. I would have done so but had no means of getting to them from our Hostel 6 Zone where Westerners were incarcerated. I am sitting here in my Hotel eating Cookies and any thing that I can spot, to catch up. We then had a Pizza for like much in our Hotel.”

[Osho Robbins]

777
"So , you are not even an exer
So ; you can't have a clu"

This is what I mean by meaningless nonsense.

Like what the heck does that mean?
If I am not an "EXER" (which is a meaningless statements unless you
define exactly what you mean by "EXER" which I can pretty much
guarantee will not be the same as my definition.)
then I cannot have a clue?

absolute bullshit. Never heard such nonsense.

"No single line I wrote is understandable for NON-initiated"

again - complete nonsense.
initiation is no qualification for being able to understand nonsense.

and I can get a roomfull of initiates who will all say they have no idea what you are talking about.

[Osho Robbins]

Hi One Initiated,
“If there was some force, vitality, soul - name the word which suits your intellect, which is clear that there was something because your absolutely proven medical procedures are not making it alive again and that it is no longer here again, and if that soul is not here then it must now be somewhere.
So the above signifies two things:
1) there was something in the body when the body was alive
2) that something has gone somewhere because it's not in the body as the body is no longer alive, it's dead.
What are your thoughts on this ?”

Just because you cannot make a thing that was alive, Alive again,
after it is dead, does not prove anything of the existence of something beyond the body.
If I smash up a computer and you fail to get it working again, it will not prove that the computer had a soul.
Both your (1) and (2) above do not follow.
If you believe in the idea of an individual soul, that itself goes against the teachings of many saints.
What does Paltu mean then when he says there is only ONE and no other?
Individual soul would mean we are all separate, so then there cannot be ONE as there are MANY.
When someone dies – it is the BODY that dies, not the person.
There are individual bodies.
Not souls.
The ego is the illusion of a separate ME (individual SOUL)
The notion of an individual soul is a way to keep the ego alive

The ego is the idea that I will remain after death.
After death - you will not remain.
Because there is no YOU even now. Just the illusion of a ME.

Reaching Sach Khand is not about getting to some place
It is the realization of the ONE – no self
Gurinder says this too – very clearly

[Osho Robbins]

Jim,
Thank you for your honest comments.
“Gurinder explicitly stated that he nor any other human being , is a “Perfect” Master. He said he has discarded that old Sant Mat term, and prefers using “ True” Masters. He did not say he was one of those. He said ALL material with in all species, including humans, are imperfect.”

So finally you heard it straight from the source.
He has been saying this for over a decade.
As well as debunking the other concepts that I have stated here many times.

“He also said some other remarks that I don’t think were appropriate to discuss in such a mixed group of male/female audience of about 2500”

You might not think they were appropriate, but he did.
And a disciple is meant to never question a master.
It is sacrilege to question or doubt the master.
He has made comments like what you heard many times.
To him they are no big deal.
I agree with him.
He can make any comments he likes.
You will only be offended if you put him on a pedestal
He has said so many times to chop the legs of the pedestal.
And treat him like an ordinary human being
Then they will be appropriate

“Regardless of my experience, I STILL belive that Sant Mat is the most Spiritual Path of all I have ever encountered.”

Then it means that his words fell on deaf ears.
You are still as deluded as when you went.
The purpose of what he did was to kill off the blind belief
But with you it still remain.
I suggest another visit. Next week would be good.
Or sooner.

these remarks proved to me by uncertain terms his humanness, and would have been remarks that Master Charan Singh would have never used

How do you know Charan would never have used them.
You might be surprised.
Gurinder is in my opinion the most outspoken and radical of the current sant mat masters. He doesn’t care if you are offended.
I must say that is one trait I admire in him.
It takes courage to go against all those books and the old teachings.
You have only seen the tip of the iceberg yet.
You need to hang out more with him and soon you will see just how much
the teachings have changed.

“Sorry my experience was not more positive and uplifting”

Jim, are you on drugs?
It was very positive and uplifting – just not what you expected.
Because your expectation were wrong.
This is what happens when expectations meet reality

All those who claim the teachings have not changed would do well to copy your example and go see him in person then decide.

“Lane needs to come back on the forums he bashed the Gurus on, the last 20 years, and tell all that he drove Way from Sant Mat why he has changed, and mend the wounds.”

Are you kidding me?
Why should he?
Are you going to apologize for what you have just written above if some believers leave the path after reading your words?

What others do is their business.
Neither I, nor David Lane, nor Jim Sutherland is responsible for others.
I am just being true to ME and you are being true to YOU.
That’s it. I am not responsible for others.

Let’s say you become what you call an “EXER” in say a few months once you have had time to digest the implication of what you witnessed, are you then going to apologise to all the believers who followed the path because of your comments?

No – everyone is on their own path and they alone are responsible.

“The only way to contact any one out side is to buy a secret code from 500 Rs that lets you call out on their private phone , but no calls can come in. “

Seems ridiculous to me that there is so much control. What for? What is RSSB afraid of? Or is it just a way of making RS500?

“Gurinder acted like he was speaking to a room full of Elementary School Kids rather than seasoned Mystics.”

Well that is because there are no seasoned mystics there, including you. Just elementary school kids who are all confused

“No one seemed interested in asking Spiritual questions. “

You just saw that now? Have you never been to any of his satsangs before? The disciples just ask silly things – so he has decided to just have fun

[Osho Robbins]

Jim, do you now consider that the teachings have changed
or are you still of the opinion that nothing has changed

[Osho Robbins]

Jim,

do you consider that Gurinder is a perfect master (whatever that means)

what specifically has changed for you since the visit?

[777]

Osho

You are just not a bird
and cannot fly

Hope you see it now

777

PS
As for changements, . . . compare the lyrics of initiation
with those of 50 years ago
You would be so amazed

PS2
Find here how I heard about this Path and you will be flabbergasted

[Osho Robbins]

777
You are just the village idiot
but cannot see it
hope it all makes sense now.

OR

PS
watch the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVBX_zSeHWQ

you will get it - or maybe not unless you are initiated by an
imperfect non-master

if you are initiiated
this video will make sense to you
because you know the secret code
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3svKMw5BceQ

and if you don't know the code
watch this - it will make sense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSdTrm8A66M

and the initiates will understand this
because it it coded for them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk58U2zd0mY

okay - if you still don't get it
listen very closely to the hidden coded messages in this final video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-WCb4Y6H8M

good luck

[Osho Robbins]

777

perhaps you can make sense of this special video
for initiates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHd7PGHliTc

PS the master loves you
> the sweet sound of super shabd

PS2 is the name of a game

understand? if not
get initiated

[One Initiated]

ha ha Osho,

Could never expect such comment from you. You are behaving silly, just to cover up your falling concepts ?

Your comments made me laugh so much, but I didn't understand really.
Are you acting funny or you are pretending to be dumb ?

Probably this is exactly what Brian described in his latest post, that in fact the non-believers eventually happen to hold beliefs which are rather stupid in nature. And that's what you described above by comparing your own body (with crown chakra) with the material only computers.
To which further level of stupidity can anyone proceed ?

Just to clear some clouds from your mind:

You are comparing human bodies with computers ? really ?
Break a CPU, or Hard Disk or the RAM, install a new one and bingo!! you are good to boot it up again.
humans created computers and not the vise versa.
humans take birth (they are not manufactured) via humans,
humans grows with time from childhood to youth and starts to decline from youth to become old and finally die (without your permissions, Osho)

Really, comparing this comment of yours with some other ones, is not even making sense that these are coming from the same person.
OR I think you had really no answer to that based on your concepts and that you just wrote whatever absurd stuff came to your mind which you ever read anywhere.

[One Initiated]

Also, one more point to add a little bit of fun, if you would enjoy:

Turn on your computer, (also turn on it's camera, if you consider that as it's eyes ;) and try to hit it with a sledgehammer.
AND
hand a sledgehammer to your friend and ask him to hit your head with it.

And let us all know whether the computer tried to defend itself from hitting ?
You don't need to tell how you would behave, I am only interested in knowing how your computer would behave ;)

And yeah, please use only sledgehammer - don't try this trick with jackhammer ha ha.

[tucson]

Well, I know what you mean. Or, you can take it back to where it was when it can be.
I mean, if you have 4 pencils and I have 7 apples, how many pancakes will fit on the roof?
Stumped? You're gonna kick yourself for not seeing this right away. The only possible answer...
Purple, because Spolinians don't wear hats.

Ole'

[Jen]

Look up in the sky and see all the ones that were kinda like you guys but they had the blue, kinda blue tint. The lights are way too bright. Way too bright. Just watch out for the flying carrot sticks. They're everywhere damn it. Do you have an uncle Eric?

[s*]

I look forward to read all the lots of posts..
No time by now,but it seems so good to hear(the written words) and communicate about some points.
Because one thing is clear:´doubd is not done in santmat while I think just that is very alright because one comes deeper by examination and communication withoneselves and others..as far as ot helps or goes.

s*

[Osho Robbins]

Hi One Initiated,

"ha ha Osho,

Could never expect such comment from you. You are behaving silly, just to cover up your falling concepts ?

Your comments made me laugh so much, but I didn't understand really.
Are you acting funny or you are pretending to be dumb ?"

you don't know what I just did?

Okay let me explain - but I am surprised that you didn't get it.

What I did was a "777"

I acted like 777 - just to show haw silly it all is.

Those videos are of "nonsense talk"

and the people he plays the prank on first pretend to understand

and finally admit they have no idea what he is talking about.

Just like with 777

The truth is he is writing nonsense
but for some strange reason his club of admirers claim to understand

I can tell you - if he said those things on the microphone to Gurinder
Gurinder would ask him to explain what he means.

So then according to the faithful on here - Gurinder is not initiated
because 777 claims that only the initiated can understand him

which is incorrect because I am initiated and I ain't got no fucking
clue what the heck he is talking about

[Osho Robbins]

Hi one initiated,

you obviously did not read the comment.

let me repeat

Just because you cannot make a thing that was alive, Alive again,
after it is dead, does not prove anything of the existence of something beyond the body.
If I smash up a computer and you fail to get it working again, it will not prove that the computer had a soul.

Let's just say that I build a complex computer and it either breaks down
or I break it. and you are unable to get it working again.

according to your logic - and this was the point I was making

according to your logic the REASON that it does not work again
is because there is some mysterious part of it that is missing

which must be the soul.

clearly this logic is flawed. so is the logic you are using equally flawed.

someone might be in a coma for 10 days - no signs of life
just kept alive by the life support machines

if you take the life support off - he would instantly die.

then after ten days he recovers.

so where was the soul during those ten days?

did it go into hiding? and then come back?

your logic does not prove the existence of a soul

that is why I used the example of a computer
because you know the computer has no soul
but by your logic it would have to have one
if you failed to bring it back to life

[Osho Robbins]

One initiated wrote

"And let us all know whether the computer tried to defend itself from hitting ?
You don't need to tell how you would behave, I am only interested in knowing how your computer would behave ;)

And yeah, please use only sledgehammer - don't try this trick with jackhammer "

I just tried it - but I hit it with a jackass instead of a sledgehammer
and you know what?

the phone DID defend itself
because just before the moment of impact - it rang
and I answered it

and the voice said

"What the heck do you think you are doing?
Do you think there will be no karma for this?
You think I don't have a soul?"

then the jackass freaked out

and I started writing this comment.

Hey Tuscon - how are you, pal?
don't see your comments much on here recently

I just drop by sometimes when I could do with some light entertainment

Tuscon, jen and *s - great nonsensical prose

maybe the four of us can write a book of nonsense and maybe
RSSB will publish it - and anyone who can make sense of it
gets a free ticket to Sach Khand
but I will have to check with Gurinder if he will give a free ticket
as there might have to be a slight charge of $1 Million for it

stay cool guys and have fun

[Jim Sutherland]

To Osho, I spent 30 minutes keying out detailed answers to your baited questions, but got timed out and lost the entire post.

I hate, despise this Format! I hate having to hurry so fast that I can rarely have time to spell check, etc. so I am not going to do it all over again, and I am still very weary and brain dead from my 23 day trip.

But let me explain, that at 75, I was rased in a little Ametican town of 700 people where every one knew each other intimately with all their “ private” secrets.

Marriage was sacred, and shacking up with out marriage was not only taboo, but illegal.
People never discussed their private bedroom sexual pleasures with others, even I among other married friends. I have been married to my Bride for 56 years and have never shared our bedroom actions with even my Brother, let alone strangers or friends, and don't make jokes about our love for each other. Perhaps that is why we are still committed to our sacred marriage Vows. We are from the “Old School.”

Pwehaps I will try to so ths in smaller posts as to nt get tmed out agan, before I get to my point.

[Jim Sutherland]

Well, looks like the Moderator is up at 2 AM moderating, so I will continue!

To Osho, continuing,......

When I was a Pastor, with a trusted Congregation that loved me, and had put their trust in me to be their Shepard, I used to have a “ Sharing Testimony Time”, before my Sermons, as most Evangelical Churches still do, that allows Desciples to share their Testimonies of what The Lord has done for them to help them in their lives recently and why they love Him.

Its kind of like a Question & Answer session as Gurinder does.

Imagine some man coming to the Mic at one of my Testimony sessions and startiing to complain about the food we brought to our Pot Luck Meals after Chruch Services. Then, as the Pastor of the Flock, I start countering his complaints, putting him on the spot, because I am in charge, because he is in my Church, and I am the appointed Pastor. ( I was, )

Now, as the complsiner is getting frustrated because I am Check Mating him publicly, before my large mixeded Congregation, of married, single, males, females, and children, the man starts saying,. .” But, Pastor, bla bla bla, and I again counters. He again says, “ but Pastor, bla bla bla,....”

I then JOKE!

My answer out of the sewer is,......” you sure like butts, huh” Do you still like your wifes butt?

The man seems embarressed. He answers,...”Master, I am 69, and no longer think of butts.”

Then, I Jokingly counter by saying, ...( as Gurider did to him before 2500 of us in a mixed audience from all over the world from different countries, cultures and Nationalities ) , “ Well, do you know what 69 means?” ( he now is on re ord haven said this to all that were there with me. )

The man is obviously now really embarressed, and answers,....” Master, Masters shouldn't talk about things like that....”

The laughter echoes thru out the Auditorium.

I suddenly wonder if I took the wrong door and entered a Porn Theator instead of a Scared Spiritual Discourse Lecture.

I think even Dr. David Lane would have felt embarressed and uncomfortable had he been sitting thete beside me with his lovely wife and two sons!

I am glad my wife was not with me.

[Jim Sutherland]

To Osho,....continuing,.....

I am of the Old School, of Sant Mat One, and will remain there,....in the Land of Duality.

I like it here, and don't care what you, Gurinder, or any other One ness Advaitist Preacher thinks about Sant Mat One, the Theology originally taught by the True Masters of Sant Mat and since the Dawn of Creation that has, and will continue to draw Marked souls like me, to Living Masters of our time, to be given the Get Out of Jail Free Card, by a Living Master of our Time, as Master Charan Singh gave me.

Gurinder didn't have my Card, as it had already been depositied in the Depository of souls before he was appointed to lead the Sanghat.

Hope I have andwered your baited Questions, if not, read carefully between the lines, and you will find the answers.

As for me, as far as the Dera is concerned, I went, I saw, I experienced,...and I never intend to return.

I am convinced the Old School of the past has faded away in to a new type of religeon.

[Jim Sutherland]

To Osho,...and others,.....I believe I have adequately answered why I am, and intend to remain and honor Sant Mat One Theology. It is the Theology I was taught in Seminary, and will contine to teach honoring my Earned Semnary Th.D., M.Min. B.Min. Degrees, as a Christian Clergy mInister.

The Western U.S. Rep. who shared Charan Singhs Initiation with me in California Feb. 4 , 1990 was also an Ex Christian Pastor, a Seminary trained Th.D. As I am, and I can assure you, he would have been horrifed had he been sitting beside me in Gurinder’s Q & A session with his lovely wide and heard the Porn Parlor jokes. Roland De Vries was a Theologian from the same Old School as I am from.

I am not ashamed of that Old School. I honor it, and will continue to respect its Sacredness.

I know I am not in a minority.

😇😍💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤😇😇

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Jim,

"To Osho, I spent 30 minutes keying out detailed answers to your baited questions, but got timed out and lost the entire post.

I hate, despise this Format! I hate having to hurry so fast that I can rarely have time to spell check, etc. so I am not going to do it all over again, and I am still very weary and brain dead from my 23 day trip."

just a little tip to change your life.

You don't need to do that.

You can write offline - into word or notepad etc

no time limits or timeouts

then once you have finished
just paste it into here

problem solved.

[Osho Robbins]

Jim

you can follow any theology
but let's get ir clear that according to the very path you claim to follow

you stand condemned by that very path

because sant mat says

"If your guru asks you to dye your prayer mat in alcohol, then do it
without hesitation"

The teachings are clear - the master is the highest authority

and if you don't accept him as master and love him

then you are not on the path

regardless of how much you meditate.

and I am not baiting you
just stating it as it is
which is what you claim to always do
be true to yourself

[Osho Robbins]

Jim
"I am of the Old School, of Sant Mat One, and will remain there,....in the Land of Duality."

You are on a non-existent path

Now do you at least admit the teachings have changed?

despite all those posts claiming that I was mistaken and had my own hidden agenda.

I met David Lane many years ago. He was close to Charan but only considered him a decent and honest man - not a master with great powers.

He said to me at that time that his faith cannot be shattered
because he does not put him on a pedestal in the first place.

Gurinder can make any remarks he chooses

because he is with the faithful

and although I was not there - my guess is he was just having fun

he does this all the time in Haynes park.

but he is just having a laugh.

one example:

some lady says "You are beautiful. I love you"
he replies "Where were you when I was younger?"

I have heard him make sexual remarks - but he is just jesting
I don't see anything wrong in that. He's just having fun.
which is perfectly okay.

What did he say that was so offensive to you?"
also - was anyone else offended, or just you?
did you see anyone stand up and leave?
My guess is NO.

You are only shocked because you have been living in the past
and suddenly you have seen him after so long and shocked that he
is so different from Charan

I like it here, and don't care what you, Gurinder, or any other One ness Advaitist Preacher thinks about Sant Mat One"

you are perfectly in your rights to follow any path you choose
but don't kid yourself that you are following RSSB
when the successor changes something - thats the new rule

and Gurinder is not some Oneness Advaitist
he is on his own unique middle of the road path

Advaita teachings don't have any element of duality
He does - he still keeps many duality concepts

which is why many are confused

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Jim

I just read your account of the inappropriate comments.

Is that it?

you are offended over your gurus successor jesting?

you wrote:
" Gurinder says,” you sure like butts, huh” Do you still like your wifes butt?

man seems embarressed. He answers,...”Master, I am 69, and no longer think of butts.”

Gurinder: “Well, do you know what 69 means?”

The man is obviously now really embarressed, and answers,....” Master, Masters shouldn't talk about things like that....”

The laughter echoes thru out the Auditorium.

I suddenly wonder if I took the wrong door and entered a Porn Theator instead of a Scared Spiritual Discourse Lecture."

Jim,
is that it?

you are offended over that?

I don't know which stone you have been hiding under.

He has made many such remarks and more extreme in much bigger gatherings - like Haynes at national satsang.

I have never seen anyone offended - at least not openly.

They are all used to it by now.

It is his style. It is his humour. It is nothing to be offended over.

I am afraid - you have wasted your whole life

because the path you are holding onto does not exist.

You could go follow Rajinder as he is still in the duality path

but the current RSSB is not your path.

However, when the current master changes the path - what he is really saying is that this is the real path - not the past one.

and he has the blessings of Charan

otherwise you are making a mockery of successorship

if Gurinder is not a real master (which is what you are saying)

then why the heck did Charan appoint him?

and not only Charan

What charan claimed at the time was that he was following the instructions of his guru, Sawan Singh.

If you consider Gurinder is not a true guru - then you are deluded if you think you can still follow charan - because you are questioning his judgement.

I am not baiting you - just stating the truth

Personally I don't find Gurinder offensive
he is just having fun

[Jim Sutherland]

Osho writes,...”What did he say that was so offensive to you?"
also - was anyone else offended, or just you?
did you see anyone stand up and leave?
My guess is NO

No one would dare to walk out and leave. He had a Captve Audience. No one can leave the Dera with out their Discharge Papers. Heck it was easier for me to leave the USAF than the Dera. At least they let me use my phone. I never had to buy a Secret Code to call a Taxi to come pick me up.

[777]

The Total Greatness of the RSSB Sound System
is that
to my humble opinion
Gurinder doesn't know he is the perfect One

Neither he understands where these beautiful buildings are for
He just follows the MAUJ ( an unbelievable fine tuned serendipities structure )

The word Obedient is in Webster
was first used in the 13th century

Don't worry, . . . be Happy ( a song )

777

ps
Hé no single comment here
on that video about
science vs GOD ?

Tiny bit of hypocrisy , perhaps here & there

[Osho Robbins]

Has RSSB turned into a concentration camp now?
The audience is captive out of choice.

When he is in haynes, anyone can leave

I meant simply to walk out of the satsang meeting - not run away from the Dera like escaping from a concentration camp.

Not sure why all the security is needed.

That was my point when Brain made the post about sevadars egos gone wild at haynes. All I was asking was to go to my car. They were protecting an area that no longer needed protection because GuruJi had already left. But they were just following orders and are not given permission to think for themselves.

[777]

""" absolute bullshit. Never heard such nonsense. ----- "No single line I wrote is understandable for NON-initiated"

again - complete nonsense.
initiation is no qualification for being able to understand nonsense. """"

Hi
Now you give proof you were not initiated
Because RSSB Initiation qualifies to BE the sweet Shabd, . . to be God

and you are not

777

[777]

""" I think even Dr. David Lane would have felt embarressed and uncomfortable had he been sitting thete beside me with his lovely wife and two sons! """

I'm absolutely NOT

It's big time the habit of neglect, hide pushing away , sex by big part of most populations while openly talk of slaughter in thousand ways
becomes cracked at least by One Leader
Deus Laudamus Jim
So fine you did this opening

Clear ? Osho

777

-

[Jim Sutherland]

Osho, you have been playing Bad Cop, as an Exer, now you are trying to play Good Cop, by accusing me of being the Exer.

But he difference is, I never entered the Fundamentalist GIHF path, nor certsinly not the changed Sant Mat 2, 3 or 4 you have been hyping hete, so I am not citing any thing I have never entered to begin with.

Plus, I retain the respect and Credibility I have always had from my friends.

I rest my case. No further comments about Gurinder from me.

Lane will eventually return here to explain why he is now a changed man by what he heard Gurinder say when he was there.

Many say that Gurinder sounds completely different when he sits on the Gaddi and gives his one hour Sat Sangs sounding like a GIHF.

I sat in the front row , but to the side of Gurinder, when he was on the Gaddi, and noticed what looked to me like a Teleprompter screen in front of him, about 10 feet out. Maybe it was a camera so he could see his own facial gestures, but I think it also could be a Teleprompter, which expains how he can go from talking about 69s and giving an hour Sat Sang with out a pause.

Just like Pres.. Trump does when he uses a Teleprompter to address Congress and the U.N. , then Tweets what he is really thinking about to his Devotees.

[Jim Sutherland]

I was just told by a Sevadore friend that what I thought could be a Telepromter is actually Time Clock Monitor. It clicks off the time, so I stand corrected.

[Osho Robbins]

777 wrote
"Now you give proof you were not initiated
Because RSSB Initiation qualifies to BE the sweet Shabd, . . to be God
and you are not"

are you on drugs?

I have been initiated many times - many gurus

but it's nonsense.

[Osho Robbins]

Jim: Osho, you have been playing Bad Cop, as an Exer, now you are trying to play Good Cop, by accusing me of being the Exer.
Me: I am not accusing you of anything. And there is no good cop / bad cop game being played.

Jim: But the difference is, I never entered the Fundamentalist GIHF path, nor certsinly not the changed Sant Mat 2, 3 or 4 you have been hyping here, so I am not citing anything I have never entered to begin with.
Plus, I retain the respect and Credibility I have always had from my friends.
I rest my case. No further comments about Gurinder from me.
Me: You don’t consider Gurinder GIHF? Is that correct?
You don’t consider Charan Singh GIHF – is that correct?
I know you have never accepted sant mat 2.0 3.3 or 4.0
But do you at least acknowledge thqt Gurinder had indeed changed sant mat 1.0 into the 2.0 3.0 and 4.0 versions?

Jim: Many say that Gurinder sounds completely different when he sits on the Gaddi and gives his one hour Satsangs sounding like a GIHF.
Me: I know many speakers in RSSB that seem really impressive on stage. So what? It means nothing

[Osho Robbins]

777: The Total Greatness of the RSSB Sound System
is that to my humble opinion
Gurinder doesn't know he is the perfect One

Gurinder, the appointed guru of RSSB "doesn't know"
what apparently 777 DOES know
namely that Gurinder IS the perfect one?

Well in that case maybe 777 should be on the Gaddi
not Gurinder

as 777 obviously knows more than Gurinder

[vinny]

Baba Faqir Chand said " Dera disciples , you may not do repetition of any name , you may not believe in gurudom but don't do bad deeds , your deeds will not spare you "
Many people live in false sense of security that by going to any guru , they will be spared from the results of bad deeds. Jesus said " You shall not kill " but people try to twist it.
Crops are harvested , fruits are plucked and animals are killed but who listens.

[Arjuna]

Hello Brian

I remember Gurinder Singh telling us at Haynes in 2002 that the UK will be a third world country give it take 12 or 13 years. Got that one right spot on looool.

It was a response to a question by a guy who asked why is there so much fraud in India - I think gurinder replied do you not think there is fraud in the UK.

Serious question Gurinder are you God??????? Are you the Alpha and Omega? We need answers - some of us are genuine and want closure. If you are reading this - I may self am afraid to ask a question - in case you say something hurtful. I thought God was love !!!!!!!!!

[777]

"""" I have been initiated many times - many gurus
but it's nonsense. """"

Yes by fakers like 'Osho Raneesh' from Puna, Taqars offspring - so many etc ...

So , you have not the slightest notion about what happens
when a Jeeva is embraced by a Real Saint and the Original Sound and receives 5 powers

So, what are you doing here ?
Y'r no exer because you were never IN

Besides, you are the first I see in many years starting calling names

Further I sense an aggressivity common to alcoholics
Pls visit the nearest AA

To other readers: he will certainly come back, even under other pseudos if he doesn't already
but he is very AA recognizable - - I propose a "Un Gordon Sanitaire"

777

-

-

[777]

Jim

You don t need an external editor
You can type as long as you want and when finished you
select your text
For safety reasons you can then place with paste in any editor / notes on IMac

Next you refresh the page
and do PAST in the text frame
Next SEND is accepted

That's it - I do that almost all the time
always nice to save anyway

ps
you said 'No' but at least you must say what question was asked before the butt remark
or what was the context
Give Gurinder a honest chance !

Also the man who reacted , . . . did you approach him ?

Further : Indian Culture where you have these temples with all Kama Sutra positions
to see for children might allow this
Perhaps Davis Lane , after so much study , he knows
Or One Initiated or any other from Delhi, India , even the complete orient :-)

Thank You very much in advance

777

[Jen]

Jim, my sympathies because of your experiences at the Dera, and at the same time this is like an awakening for you. I can understand you still have an attachment to Charan, I did for a long, long time and now I am over it all completely.

I don't mix with satsangis because of their religious attitudes so haven't heard much about Gurinder's joking. I think these sexual remarks made by a supposed GIHF are not acceptable. The final nail in the coffin for me. He's just a human like all of us, probably has no spiritual power at all, well, no more than we have anyway. In fact I wonder now if Sant Mat is actually a demonic path. I know it sounds too extreme but when I die and if I see a radiant form that looks like the Master I am going to avoid it and escape if I can.

Scary to think I bought into such a fake path. Satsangis are acting like brain washed clones and Gurinder is feeding off the energy of his followers and they don't even realise it.

[Osho Robbins]

"""" I have been initiated many times - many gurus
but it's nonsense. """"

777 replies:
Yes by fakers like 'Osho Raneesh' from Puna, Taqars offspring - so many etc

So , you have not the slightest notion about what happens
when a Jeeva is embraced by a Real Saint and the Original Sound and receives 5 powers

Boy - you do talk a lot of nonsense.
I was never initiated or never even met Osho Rajneesh
I WAS initiated by (1) Thakar (2) Swami Divyanand
(3) Charan SIngh (4) Darshan Singh

I was also close with (but not initiated by) Rasila Ram (Saidpur RSSB)
and

I also met Ajaib singh on a number of occasions

Dr Harbhajan & Taran Taran guru Baba Kehar SIngh

I was very close with and met both of these many times and had many in depth discussions with both of them.

So please don't talk such nonsense if you don't know what you are
talking about.

Plus there are people on this forum that know me personally

unlike you - I am not a made up person
777 - nobody knows who you are - 777 means nothing

with me - only my code name of Osho Robbins is made up
I am a real person anyone can see and hear and people know

[Osho Robbins]

777:
So, what are you doing here ?
Y'r no exer because you were never IN

I have just proven beyond all doubt that the above is a lie

Besides, you are the first I see in many years starting calling names
Further I sense an aggressivity common to alcoholics
Pls visit the nearest AA

Your sensing ability of off, and needs recalibration
I have no aggression against RSSB
I have no idea where you bring Alcohol and AA into the argument from.

I go to RSSB satsangs sometimes - I don't consider myself an Exer
because I am neither for nor against

I just pointed out that in some earlier posts that there are
characteristics about Gurinder that I find admirable

[Jim Sutherland]

Concerning the “Secret Code”I mentiond I had to buy to make a phone call outside the Dera.

I need to put more clarity in to this statement to make it credible, and why itmirritated me so much.

There was a So. African Gurinder Initiate there, trying to leaving the same day as I was, who was also irritated and helped me wade thru the confusion by directing me to a Sevador tending the Audio booth who helped him.

This man explained that I would need to buy a Secret Code Coupon dor 500Rs to call out by using Dera House phone placed in ever Block of the Hostel 6 Compond. He said that there would be X amount f mi utes on the Coupon and he would buy back any unused minutes I had left in the Coupon from me after making my call.

His Wife was one of the Sewadors working at the Hostel 6 Office he said to but thenCoupon from.

That made more sense to memonce he explained it clearly to me.

Prior, what irritated me, was theremwere 4peop,e working the Hostel Ad ission Offce, who had all different stories about how I could make my single call out.

First, I was told by an American Lady that Imwould need to buy a local I dia Chip for mmy phone, then I could use it to call out.

I rejected that suggestion, and refused to buy anChip to,make,one call when I was leaving the next morning.

Plus, I had an iPhonem7Plus that was loaded with 20prior days of my travel,photos I didn’t want to chance deleting or messing up by mess gmwith a Chip change.

I Complained that there MUST be some one withnan Indian Phonemthatmcould make a single call for me.I,gave them them the number.

The Lady tried agan to sell me a Cell Phone Chip.!! She said she would give me back my cell phone back, and I could change out my chip and make my call, then give her back my confiscated phone.

Again, I refused, and walked away.

I returned again after trying to find some one who had an Indian Phone, but found no one.

I then went back to Offce and askd if the Weatern Rep.could help me, as thought he might have his phone still.

They told me he was he was gone to take some one to the Hospital, and only Whayne in Security could allow such a call out side, and he was out for the Week!!

So then I told them that wants to carry my luggage with wife to the main Gate, and try find fa Taxi from there, as I had been told there were always Taxis there.

I was told I was not allowed t leave on my own. The Taxi would have to come get me, insdemth Yare, after Imhave thm his Name, Registration ID, and car number!

But I couldn't call out.

After I finally bought my 500 R. Secret Vode t make my single hnmcall, I found outmaftermMgot,out sde, that Imcould have bought a ONE R Coupon that would have easily have handled my call.

Now if that doesn't sound like I was being held in a Cencentration Camp, than just what was it?

My uninitated Wife was paranoid!

Yes, maybe I went in voluntarily, but once in, I was their Prisner,....until We escaped!,,,

[Osho Robbins]

777 in a lame attempt to defend the "butt" remark
(addressed to Jim)
"you said 'No' but at least you must say what question was asked before the butt remark or what was the context
Give Gurinder a honest chance !
Also the man who reacted , . . . did you approach him ?"

Me: Jim is not happy about a master referring to Butts
and 69 in any context.
so there is nothing to defend.
I personally take no exception to that
I don't think that is any criteria for a master or a good person
He has his own standards just as you have yours
there is nothing inherently wrong in those remarks

it is just that he has violated a moral code within Jim
so Jim is offended
it actually is not about Gurinder - it's about Jim

I don't have that same moral code so I am not offended
plus I consider him a man - not a god man
and in my opinion he is just having fun

Charan claimed no special powers
Gurinder also claims no special powers from what I have heard

so why assign powers to them
and then get offended when they act in a human way?

[Jim Sutherland]

Sorry for the typos, but I hurried to not get timed out.

Osho, perhaps the reason I was offended by the locker room sexual comments that should only be joked about by Homosexuals and Perverts is because I am still married to my same Bride for 56 years and your Bride dumped you.

You have most likely be come immune to common Spiritual Discussions and decency among a mixed group of males and females, most beng married couples, as well as Elders long on Spiritual Paths,

I think if Gurinder Singh makes these kinds of comments among mxed groups often, since having his Throat cancer, then perhaps his Chemo/Radiation treatments have destroyed the filters between his brain and his tongue, so I am able to give him a pass and excuse him.

But if he has been making those kinds of coments even before his treatments, for the last decade, as you say, them my advice to Seekers is, RUN, and don't look back, because that kind of potty talk has no place among Spiritual Seekers attending Spiritual Conferences or Retreats!

[Osho Robbins]

Osho, perhaps the reason I was offended by the locker room sexual comments that should only be joked about by Homosexuals and Perverts is because I am still married to my same Bride for 56 years and your Bride dumped you.

Jim,
Don’t use that as a get out clause. So fucking what? if you’re married to the same woman? Maybe you need to get out more.

And if I was still with my first love, it would make no difference
And marriage itself makes no difference at all – it’s a piece of paper that we attribute special meaning to and it can be countered by another paper called a divorce

I was at a seminar a week ago, run by Richard Bandler and Paul McKenna
On NLP and hypnosis.
Now Richard Bandler is a world recognized authority
He is the co-creator of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) which is a powerful methodology for making profound and fast changes – much more effective than traditional therapy

Now – Richard is FAMOUS for swearing and offensive words.

On a scale of 1 – 10 Gurinder would be a 2 and Richard would be a 9.

In mixed audiences he used words like “Mother fucker” and other far more offensive words MANY MANY times during the weekend. This was a paid event. And he never once apologized

Here’s why. If you are offended – it’s YOUR problem – get over it.
Here he is – a world famous man (now over 80 years of age) explaining WHY he swears and why it is very effective in breaking free from old patterns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHM0Vh14x5w

He doesn’t NEED to swear. He does it for EFFECT

I understand that Gurinder has violated a moral standard of yours.
But can you not see that the moral standard belongs to YOU and is not UNIVERSAL? (it FEELS like it is universal to you)

The word "Decent" or "Rude" means different things to different people
David Lane in the article below (the guru has no turban)
described Ajaib gulping down a bottle of campa cola and then
letting out a loud burb - that's considered RUDE - but not by him

It is YOUR moral standard that is the cause of your upset.

Let me put it this way:
Imagine for a moment that you are NOT offended by such words because you hear them all the time. Or better still – you yourself USE them all the time.
Let’s say you have no moral standards.
So now – would you be offended?

Clearly the answer is NO (it cannot be anything else)
So this means it is not the swear words or sexual language that offends
Those are just words – they have no power to offend.
What offends you is
What you do with those words in your head
The MEANINGS you make
But those meanings are YOUR meanings – you made them
They are not reality

So you made a meaning and that is why you are offended.

So this is the thought process
Axiom : A true master never swears or uses sexually explicit language
Especially not in public in a mixed sangat

Gurinder used sexually explicit language right in front of you (not hearsay)

Conclusion:
Therefore Gurinder cannot possibly be a true master.

All this is meanings we are creating

Read david lane’s
The guru has no turban
http://www.integralworld.net/lane11.html

you (and everyone) is living in a world of meaning that we have created

The world has no inherent meaning
Gurinder using the butt word has NO INHERENT meaning at all
The meaning (that it is WRONG) is made up by the listener
Jim concluded that Gurinder cannot be a perfect master
A guy sitting next to him concluded that Gurinder is cool

Same event – different meanings.

[Tony]

Quote Jim.....my advice to Seekers is, RUN, and don't look back,
Yeah...run from you

[Osho Robbins]

Jim wrote:

I think if Gurinder Singh makes these kinds of comments among mxed groups often, since having his Throat cancer, then perhaps his Chemo/Radiation treatments have destroyed the filters between his brain and his tongue, so I am able to give him a pass and excuse him.

But if he has been making those kinds of coments even before his treatments, for the last decade, as you say, them my advice to Seekers is, RUN, and don't look back, because that kind of potty talk has no place among Spiritual Seekers attending Spiritual Conferences or Retreats!

But Jim, you have previously told me, and others that we will rot in hell or worse for making such remarks because Gurinder is the perfect master and we are responsible for turning people away from the perfect master, which is very bad karma.

Are you not in for bad karma? because you was recently a believer and that is going to affect people more than someone like me

so what if you are wrong and Gurinder really is a true master?

boy, you're going to be in real trouble. Better go inside and have a chat with Charan and check things out before going public.

I mean you do have access to Charan, don't you?

Ask him what is up with Gurinder and ask him why he appointed someone who has such low moral standards

[Arjuna]

May I ask a question - satsangis will shun anyone who makes a sexual remark or start looking down or at each other and smirking. Point is how the hell did they have children - immaculate conception????? Many went to Haynes to look for future partners for them selves or kids - mind you!

It is concerning that the master made these remarks - thought being at his level his consciousness did not go below the third eye.

[Jim Sutherland]

Here is the Sant Mat I subscribed to,......

“Sister, the real teaching of Christ is something quite different from just embracing Christianity. According to the teachings of Christ, we have to find a Living Master and the only way in which we can really follow his teachings is to be in the fold of a Living Master. Christ initiated certain people and took them to his abode. He indicated that as long as ‘I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.’ He said very beautifully to the effect that, ‘Now I am with you, but after a little while I shall leave you and then again I shall be with you. Now you have so many doubts, but when I shall be with you after a little while, you shall have no doubts.’

These are all mystic things. When Christ said that he was going to leave them, he meant only as far as the physical form was concerned. And that was said to certain disciples of his, and not to you and me today. When he said to his disciples, those whom he had initiated in his lifetime, ‘a little while and ye shall see me,’ he meant that he had not only initiated them in the physical form, for after he had left the physical form he should be with them in his Radiant Form inside, permanently. Now you see me in the flesh and now you have doubts, he said, but when you will see my radiance inside, after a little while, then you will have no questions.

He explained all this beautifully to his personal disciples, pertaining to himself as their Living Master. You and I cannot make use of that personality now. If we are really followers of Christ’s teachings, we have got to find a Living Master. We have got to know the teachings of Christ from him, and to follow those teachings, and then we can be led to Christ too, if we are interested to meet him.

Somehow we are just involved in personalities and do not give any attention to nor do we try to understand the real teachings of the personalities. If we understand the real teachings of Christ, the personality, we will know what he wants us to follow. He did his work and he left certain teachings for us to follow, but we are not paying any attention to his teachings. We are still trying to think about him, his personality. His disciples living in his time could benefit by his physical presence; but you and I cannot make use of his physical presence. We can only make us of his teachings, and in order to follow his teachings, we must have a Living Master. Then only can we be true Christians and then only are we following his teachings. From what little I have read in the Bible, this is very clear.

Christ also said that we have got to merge back into the Lord, ‘I and the Father are one,’ ‘I am in the Father and the Father is in me.’ He indicated that our soul is the essence of the Lord. Unless our soul merges back into the Lord, it will not get release from birth and death. He also explained that the Lord is not anywhere outside, but that he is within the human body. ‘Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Sprit of God dwelleth in you.’ Also, ‘Yee are the temple of the loving God.’ The living God is within you, so you have to seek the Lord within your body. You have to make a search in this manner, not outside. Then he told us, ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions.’ We have to pass through many stages before we can reach our destination.

Then he hinted that we have to knock at the door of our house, ‘Knock and it shall be opened unto you; seek and ye shall find.’ You always knock at a door from outside, and the door is opened from inside. We are outside; the door is inside, here at the eye center. We have to withdraw the consciousness up to this door of our house and ‘knock’ here. The method of ‘knocking’ is to concentrate here, hold our attention here, and the door will be opened from inside. There we seek, and shall find the path leading to our destination. Being on that path, we will find the Lord, whom we are seeking in the body. These are all mystical terms which we have to understand.

We also find in The Bible that Christ said, ‘If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.’ When we knock at that door, the single or third eye, that eye is opened and we see that light. Until we merge into that light, we cannot travel on this path. Until then we are full of darkness and we cannot know or see our destination. Christ also talked about the Word or Logos when he said, ‘The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth; so is everyone that is born of the spirit.’ By this he is referring to the Holy Ghost, that Audible Life Stream, the Holy Spirit, the Sound Current that is within everyone of us, and we can be in touch with that only after we knock and open this door, that single eye or third eye.”

~ Charan Singh. “The Master Answers”

[Jim Sutherland]

Osho wrote,....”But Jim, you have previously told me, and others that we will rot in hell or worse for making such remarks because Gurinder is the perfect master and we are responsible for turning people away from the perfect master, which is very bad karma.”

Me: That’s a down right lie, Osho. I have never said such a thing here , nor sent any one to hell. You are now exposing your true colors.

[Jim Sutherland]

Arguna writes,....”May I ask a question - satsangis will shun anyone who makes a sexual remark or start looking down or at each other and smirking. Point is how the hell did they have children - immaculate conception????? Many went to Haynes to look for future partners for them selves or kids - mind you!”

Me:.......I never heard of any one making children by 69ing or butt copulations, have you? If so, post a reference.

There is a place for sexual comments among Satsangis, called “ Procreation” in Sant Mat Teachings. By Legal, procreation in marriage abiding by the Laws of each country, according to Charan Singh, who said Homosexuality was “Un-normal”.

Manjit freaked out by Charan’s remark and cursed him! Wonder why?

Gurinder allows Homosexuality and initiates Homos. He has no problem.

Most likely, why he has Butts and 69s on his mind,......that has not fallen below his Third Eye. 😇

I have no problem either, with Homosexuals or Lesbians, and know they are in transition from haven been another Gender in their past life which might take one or more reincarnations to completely transition to their current Gender.

But that does not allow them to be promiscious any more than it does Straights, out side of marriage.

But I fully agree with Charan that Homosexual life style is UNATURAL,...at least in most present Civilized Societies.

Brahmachara and Celibacy should be the norm for Sincere Satsangi Homosexuals and Lesbians.

I think most Sant Mat Masters would agree with Master Charan Singh.

[Jim Sutherland]

Before I forget and while I am on a roll, in the first Q & A session I attended, some one asked Gurinder to please grace him with his radiant form.

Gurinder used an Oxy Moron to answer.

He answered,.......The Radiant FORM is formless,,

So, again, Charan’s Radiant Form to me was NOT formless, but in full body color, with Audio including his accent,

Plus, I have friends that told me they SAW Gurinder's radiant form inside.

So Gurinder must be as Fakir Chand was,...i.e unknowledgeable regarding his Astral Projec tion to his Devotees.

I believe the friends who told me they saw him.

[777]

I can't help to remember that night, on Thursday , the SatGuru
telling his 20 accompanying disciples
to wait and the entered a brothel

The morning came and only 1 disciple left
who said
I have no other place to go

at least ( brain cancer or not ) it will thin out
RSSB folks somewhat , - - But I'm not sure

Those who have united with Charan inside 24/7
and have experienced that this is the same
as uniting with Gurinder, The words and the always present Sound Stream
will not leave
There is no other such nice place to go

Every body understands that you cannot be concentrated for long on the second
and the Crown Chakra at the same time but why not in conception
of a Holy Soul
Now I think this over, I can very well mix the first Chakra with the seventh as well
the sound it always there with interferences as well
There should be nothing dirty around sex and our ass which are cultural defined
But here It's above my pay grade Arjuna

Let be glad when you are 90% of the time at a very high place

Suddenly however I remember that Sawan told a man that complained about his super sex drive to double meditation
I never thought that yes ; when you fuck 5 hours a day and 19 hours engage
really absorbe with The SoundCurrent , . . is not so bad .... :-)

But now I think Gurinder might disagree , but nothing is impossible
In Jesus Name say the Christians -
so with the real Name . . . Wauuuw

There is also definitely a difference between first life-rs and fourth life-rs
There is also a grand difference between earthly love and other eartly Loves
based on compassion
AND the degree the Sound Chakra Love can mingle in that eartly love

But let's not go stones and just look in our hearts ( that s in the middle )

Best is to Love the Sound day and night , be part of it at all times
and know the Words are also just That

This is what was promised at initiation and a giant Bulk ofSaint guarantying
These Masters is what you find at the third Eye . . if you never passed there before

This Path is from a Genius who is a zillion steps before our slow passages
and amazes us through ( at least ) serendipities

Speaking of ONE :
It is Both
No God destroys what He created
annd you need more to dance the tango

We have the best of All Worlds between the 7th and the 1st region_sphere
HERE AND NOW

Enjoy

777

Bless everybody

[Tony]

Difference between Jim and Gurinder is that Gurinder is makiing serious things funny and easier to digest and Jim is making fun things serious and complicated.
Osho is right you came to Dera with your concept and picture and i agree with Osho you dont love Charan 100% your love to him is conditioned. Charan loved Gurinder.

[s*]

Hi People,
It is all what WE do with our Path,because that is our very´own´

All kind of experiences we can have ,also bhakti...
It is our very ´own´ bhakti.

It is not going bad to us if we see through things.
For me it was schocking at first,but I see it as growing up.

Maharaji teached a lot..especially about Love!!

Baba Gurinder the letting go of things..
He is more ´human´

But Maharaji was my greatest Love..
I also had really trouble through pangs of separation..as written in the books forinstance Mira Bai and Bulleh Shah..
I myself could not eat,talk and was totaly strange and out of control.

So what I felt was´ where is the Master for the diciple in need´,I needed support.

Anyway..itś all how it has/had to go..

In the this stage we dońt know shit..

Just BE..
Vipassana is also very good.

Sometimes I to satsang to just be there..and see what happens.
Sometimes its very nice with btothers and sisters.
Sometimes itś boring when people are soo into the teachings,with wich I can´t keep up with..

[s*]

The pangs and a sort of totaly home sickness,was after being in Dera for 3 months.
And being very young..

Later when I was in Dera after Maharaji left this world ..was also sort of shock..

[s*]

I miss a posting before this last one..but anyways..

[Jim Sutherland]

Osho, you don't know the Scriptures, and is why you have become a Whore master and have not been able to stay with the wife of your youth, unlike me.

Repent of your evil ways and restore the love you once had for The Lord of your heart, which eill replace the present bitterness yoy have drawn up on your self.

😇😍💤💤💤

“For the lips of a strange woman drop as a honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: but her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house: Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. Let thy fountain be blessed : and thy rejoice with the WIFE OF THY YOUTH.Let her be as the loving hind and present roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at ALL times; and be thou ravished always with her love. And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? “ ( Proverbs 5: 3, 4, 5, 8, 15, 18, 29, 20 )

[Osho Robbins]

Jim

If you on the path of Christianity that would be a different matter.

The bible advocates slavery too. Do you also buy into that or just the verses you want to select.

Anyway putting that aside

You go to beas. He says a few words that shock you and now you decide he is not a true master.

You previously told me that so many people saw grinder change into Charan which proved he was a true master.

You ignore the Babani episode and the making millions using his position and the fact that rssb is now about acquiring lots of property. And donation boxes dotted all over.

And you get offended by a few words which frankly prove nothing.
Just because he joked about 69 which he has done many times and used a word like butt you suddenly think he is a pervert and cannot be a true master and all the previous evidence you had now means nothing?

And presumably Charan singh must have made a mistake in appointing him?

But Charan was your guru. How can He make a mistake?

Or is it perhaps that you are mistaken.

Making jokes even if they have a sexual slant it no criteria to judge a master

If he was caught in some sexual scandal that would be different.

But you are condemning him for using a few words that offend you

And the teachings of rssb say that you must never judge a master.

Although I don't follow him I certainly don't condemn him. I like the fact that he has the courage to break free of the previous concepts of sant mat.

[OshoRobbins]

Jim
By the way I am not a whore master whatever that means and there are no medals for staying with the first woman you married regardless of what proverbs says

God, if he existed, would not be sitting around all day just checking who is still married to the first woman he met and who told a dirty joke.

Osho rajneesh purposely told sexual jokes just to offend people who put him on a pedestal.

There is nothing offensive about what gurinder said. The offence is in your mind because you feel he has not lived up to the standard of how a master should behave.

But he has never lived up to any of those standards anyway

You never had a problem before

[Ken]

Jim Sutherland,

Are you a betrayer of Sant Mat and the Sant Satguru’s? Is that why you are disrespecting the person whom Charan selected to look after the sangat? Which also means you disrespect your own master Charan who you say initiated you? Do you even consider him as your Master?

Are you even following the path or are you an Exer? You are the most vitriolic person I have ever read over the internet.

As per you who is the true master of the present time? Or do you think this world is void of any true master?

[Arjuna]

69s lol. Never thought that term would see the light of day in threads where we debate higher things! Keep it chaps - pardon the pun lol

[Arjuna]

Say if it is a all a test from Master and we have all failed miserably. Consider it for a moment - just consider. After all who knows what a real master looks like and acts. Consider my friends

[manjit]

Jim: "Manjit freaked out by Charan’s remark and cursed him! Wonder why?"

Hey Jim. Here's the quote from Charan again, lest we forget his infinitely loving & perfect widsom and insight into the matter of homosexuality:

"In “Quest for Light,” a book containing extracts from letters written by an Indian guru, Charan Singh, the guru said:
"Please remember that anything that is against Nature is always improper and inadvisable. Nature has created the two sexes for the continuation of the species and for the satisfaction of the sex instinct within proper limits. If we go against it, it means we are doing something unnatural of which the laws of Nature do not approve. Homosexuality is contrary to all laws of Nature and no decent society approves it. The act is humiliating and degenerating not only in the eyes of others, but also in the eyes of those who are involved…There are no habits which we cannot break if we have the will and determination to do so.""

Yes, why did I "freak out" by this repugnant, ignorant & judgemental, published in official RSSB literature remark by the All Loving Godman?

Perhaps, as MBW also insinuated, it is because I am homosexual myself, and felt offended by this on a personal level?

I guess if I stand around with people making anti-semitic remarks and I say that's repugnant, ignorant & judgemental, it's because I'm a Jew?

Or if I stand around with men who make demeaning and sexually harassing comments about or to women, and I say that's repugnant, it's because I'm a woman?

The real question, Jim, isn't why I "freaked out", but how can any thoughtful person consider this to be anything other than the biased, ignorant, judgemental, erroneous & un-compassionate ramblings of a mundane human being with as much flaws and errors as the rest of us?

I'm glad you brought this up again, I won't even argue the right or wrong, absurdity, non-spirituality, anti-wisdom etc about this remark. I will just let people read it for themselves:

"In “Quest for Light,” a book containing extracts from letters written by an Indian guru, Charan Singh, the guru said:
"Please remember that anything that is against Nature is always improper and inadvisable. Nature has created the two sexes for the continuation of the species and for the satisfaction of the sex instinct within proper limits. If we go against it, it means we are doing something unnatural of which the laws of Nature do not approve. Homosexuality is contrary to all laws of Nature and no decent society approves it. The act is humiliating and degenerating not only in the eyes of others, but also in the eyes of those who are involved…There are no habits which we cannot break if we have the will and determination to do so.""

[One Initiated]

I remember from the Santmat Prakash (discourses by The Great Master - Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj; I don't recall which volume of the book and which discourse - I read it quite a few years ago):

(paraphrasing)

"It takes a lot of energy for the body to make the virya (seminal fluid) and bring the body back to it's original energy level then why waste our energy in such deeds ? "

And upon further asking by the disciple the Master said: "Do not over indulge yourself in it and never ever get engaged with any other woman, strictly just be with your wife (and the same is applicable to the women to just have the physical relation with your husband). When you keep attending your daily Simran and Bhajan with much devotion, your interest in the intercourse will start to decline with time."

Arjuna

Have you ever experienced the rise of consciousness ?

As mentioned earlier by 777 in one of his comments related to money.
for the betterment of the planet and the betterment of all the living beings,
if he possesses . . Goldman Sachs, or exploits cam4.com
it makes to me no difference at all.

Now, that was in certain other context but I was mentioning you above the cam4.com

If you go and start to see the videos you might start getting aroused, and if you have experienced the rising of Surat in your body during meditation, just start doing your Simran even while watching the porn videos... if your inner focus is on Simran and the Sound Current, soon after you won't feel that aroused and the same videos will actually just be looking funny indeed... even watching the 69 ones won't let a drop of your blood flow to your private area given if your Surat is all sucked up.

Master knows the inner condition of every disciple in front of HIM and replies and sometimes taunts him the way which will be in best interest of the disciple. It doesn't mean that the Master's consciousness is not at the Crown Chakra.

By HIS super duper grace, for a few moments, HE allowed me to see HIS consciousness doing amazing things even while delivering the Satsang at Beas. That was not once, it reoccurred multiple times. It's beyond the explanation of words.
Which also made me realize how important and graceful to be at HIS feet attending HIS discourse. An hour spent under HIS feet (with heart full of devotion and love) is equivalent to meditation of a very very long time.

[manjit]

Jim: "Now if that doesn't sound like I was being held in a Cencentration Camp, than just what was it?"

Hehe. No Jim, your story re. issues with making a phone call REALLY doesn't sound like a "concentration camp" AT ALL. Perhaps you need to re-read your history and re-adjust your sense of privilege and position in the world? ;)

Thanks for sharing your story here, it must have took some courage.

Though I'm a little taken aback at just how easily you found criticism with Gugu and RSSB based on material inconveniences, I can certainly understand your uneasiness with overt sexual references by the Pooran Sant Satguru of our times. As you may know, I posted about it over at RSS a few weeks or month or so ago.

Again, it should be made clear, I don't have any of the hang-ups you seem to have around sexuality & it's expression, even by "spiritual teachers". For example, this Satsang by Osho I find infinitely more interesting than any I ever heard at our local RSSB centre:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCWCZU60iN4

However, Gurinder is the product of a very specific theology & cosmology, within which he represents the energy of "Nam" or "Shabd". Within the RS theology, the energy of lust or "Kam" goes in the opposite direction to that of Nam, and it said where one is, the other cannot be "Where there is kam, there is no naam".

There is a grand theological contradiction between what his position signifies and the words coming out of his mouth.

Though, no doubt, the RSSB apologists on this forum will conduct beautiful and breathtaking intellectual & emotional gymnastics to rationalise this all away. It's just so easy to do!

Perhaps - and I actually mean this genuinely - there is more to Osho Robbins idea that Gugu is literally and openly changing the teachings - but only for the English speaking crowd - and this is just one more aspect to it? Perhaps this is Gugu imitating the Osho (in the video above)? Interesting!

777: "Because RSSB Initiation qualifies to BE the sweet Shabd, . . to be God

and you are not

777"

Hehehe. Much like all the talk of "love" on this forum by RS apologists - often even qualified with the words "RS Love" - all this "spirituality" comes across as very cultic, isolationist, exclusive etc?

Is that really love?

RSSB initiation "qualifies" "to be God"? Do you realise how utterly ridiculous that sounds? How utterly small your reality must be?

Look, I think some of the comments against you by a poster were unfair - I actually understand much of what you're trying to convey (from "serendepities", which is more popularly known as "synchronicities", or your focus on the number 7, which is an extension of Blavatsky's writings, to your experiences with the inner sound. Incidentally, to wrap things up somewhat, I recall you once wrote about Melchizedek - here's a link to a story about "serendepities" involving Melchizedek and a Frenchmen, how could I not post it? The full story is in Vallee's book Messengers of Deception I think, excerpt found online below:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rP4lCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255#v=onepage&q&f=false )

I just don't think you really comprehend what all of that means, yourself.

It certainly isn't any specific or peculiar to RSSB, Charan or Gurinder. These phenomena exist all over the place. How could it be, what's so special about them?

How you're reading this phenomena is where the error originates. The Serendepities are out to trick you.

[Osho Robbins]

one initiated writes (in his great wisdom taken from RS books)

"Which also made me realize how important and graceful to be at HIS feet attending HIS discourse. An hour spent under HIS feet (with heart full of devotion and love) is equivalent to meditation of a very very long time."

well well well
Try telling that to Jim Sutherland.

A short time in Beas with the current master and his whole spiritual path is finished. He is now labelled an "Exer" and a defector of the faith.

He would have been better of not going then he could have continued in his delusion that Gurinder was the correct successor and not have to deal with the difficulty of Gurinder using words like Butt and 69.

Two words and his lifelong faith is over.

fuck me!

[Osho Robbins]

Jim,
Check out this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otGQqO2TYMI

Can you write factually exactly WHAT offended you so deeply?
Without the avoidance factor of mixing the pastor example.

From what I can gather, the dialogue went something like this
Questioner: blah blah – complaints (not sure what about) Jim can explain
Gurinder: You complaints are unfounded (or words to that effect)
Questioner: But Master,……
Gurinder: I told you - unfounded
Questioner: But Master…… Blah Blah Blah
Gurinder: You sure like your ‘Buts’ , huh? don’t you? (Gurinder is joking)
Do you still like your wife’s Butt? (this is a pun on the word ‘but…)
(This is simply Gurinder’s style of humour – nothing to get offended over)
Questioner: Master, I am 69, and no longer think of butts.
Gurinder: Well, do you know what 69 means?
Questioner: Master, Masters shouldn't talk about things like that....

That’s about it from what I can gather.

Now seriously – I don’t think any person can find anything offensive in that.
And if they do – they need to get out more.
Because

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio

Firstly Gurinder made a pun on the person’s constant but… but….
I can see nothing offensive and nothing to be embarrassed about so far.

Next: “Do you still like your wife’s butt?” – nothing offensive
He is not expecting an answer – as he is still playing on the pun
The question is Rhetorical
Then the questioner says he is 69.
This gives Gurinder another chance to continue the joke
All he asked was “Do you know what 69 means?”
The guy could have said “Yes – it’s one less than 70”
Instead of getting offended.
Actually its quite possible he was not offended and the only person to get offended was Jim
There is nothing in that dialogue that would make me conclude that Gurinder was a pervert or that he has descended into lower chakras and is no longer a true master

Come on Jim – are you seriously saying that two sentences that are not even explicit offended you?
You are just easily offended.

Is that the only thing he said that offended you in the whole trip?
If so, then you don’t have a case.
Seriously – you act like you’ve just uncovered a major scandal.

You need to relax and not be so uptight. Unless you have anything else
My verdict is “case dismissed”

[manjit]

This thread is so fucking funny! :o)

Two questions if I may:

1) Somebody (perhaps either Vinny or Juan, I cannot recall) posted up here a few weeks or months ago a quote from Kabir, I think, which said something along the lines of "the 5 words cannot help you", a whole verse - can anybody remember the verse & poster, and if the poster is reading this, can you please cite the source for the quote, as I've never read it before? If it's correct/accurate, which I'm suspicious of, it would be one of the most interesting posts here in years, and it got lost without comment?!

2) 777 - can I please ask, just out of curiosity, were you involved with any of the "order of Melchizedek" groups that popped up in France around the 60s and 70s?

[777]

Manjit repeated my
777: "Because RSSB Initiation qualifies to BE the sweet Shabd, . . to be God

and you are not

777"

You said : Is this Love

I should have said :
"and you are not initiated"
just factual not offensive

Later Osho gave 4 initiation in a row with Charan in the middle
He knew that THAT is exacty my doubt
so why that inconspiciously and without Date, Representative

I still believe Osho never was connected with the Sound by a Saint
and has no clu

Manjit : Your later questions
I never heard of such Melchisedek group here in France
You made me curious because who knows what kind of old wisdom they preserved

I will certainly read the Vallée book you gave
I have a book of him - He s a fine writer

777