Tempting as it is to pray, health problems should be managed without God

I've got some semi-serious health problems. Meaning, they aren't fatal or debilitating. But they're damn annoying. The details aren't necessary to know for the purposes of this post, though I've blogged about what I'm going through here. 

It's been interesting to see how my atheist mind has been dealing with the stress I've been feeling.

Back in 2006 I wrote a couple of posts on the subject of turning to God during difficult times. The first was "Atheists in foxholes do exist." It concluded with:

Religious belief or faith is almost always individualistic. That’s a paradox, considering that humility and loss of ego usually is considered to be a religious virtue. It’s self-centered to believe that a God, guru, angel, Buddha, or whoever is going to bestow upon us the blessing of a miracle that isn’t available to all.

We are special. Divinity cares more about us than others. These beliefs underlie every intercessionary prayer. For if we merely wanted God to give us what is natural, normal, lawful, and regular, we’d merely say “thy will be done” (which, in my opinion, is the best prayer—if you feel the need to pray at all).

It’s better to let reality trump belief. Focus on what is happening, not in what you hope will happen. Focus on what you can change about reality, not on what you hope a higher being will change.

Even in a foxhole. Especially in a foxhole.

And here's an excerpt from the other post, "Yes, there are agnostics in dentist's chairs."

During my devotional days I’d try to adopt the attitude that a dental visit was God’s will, part of my bad teeth karma. I’d repeat the mantra given to me by my guru and do my best to enter into a relaxed “thy will be done” attitude.

Today I felt just as calm, cool, and collected. Yet the Brian whose mouth was open for well over an hour was an agnostic, not a believer. I felt no need to lean on a higher power. Reality was my mainstay.

“What has to happen is happening,” I told myself. “Accept it.” And I did. I found that it helped to focus on my one-syllable mantra, if only to keep myself from worrying about how much decay would be found once the malfunctioning crowns/bridge were removed.

However, what I'm going through now is much tougher for me to handle than a visit to the dentist (even for a root canal).

I'll be honest and admit that Atheist Me has occasionally laid in bed at night, when I feel the most anxious, and uttered some prayers to the God I no longer believe in. I've also called upon the Indian guru I no longer believe in to make an appearance in my consciousness.

So I totally understand why believers in a divinity find comfort in feeling that their health problems have some spiritual purpose/benefit, are being overseen by a supernatural being, or will be ameliorated through the grace of a higher power. 

After all, if a nonbeliever like myself is tempted to appeal to God for help, obviously religiously-inclined people are going to look upon God as the Healer of Last Resort (or first resort, since some extreme believers reject medical treatment entirely -- even for their children, which should be considered child abuse).

Here's what I've found, though. 

As my favorite saying by Philip K. Dick puts it, Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away. 

Beautiful!

Reality is what sustains us. Reality also is what makes us suffer, pushing us down. Reality is all there really is. And that includes our thoughts, beliefs, imaginings, and such that only exist within our own minds.

Yet as Dick said, there's a difference between a reality that is only a mental belief, and a reality that continues to exist even in the absence of a belief about it.

When I'm physically hurting, that's real.

Praying to God might make me feel better about the pain, but prayer to an imaginary God isn't going to make the pain go away. More accurately, if the pain does go away, this will be due to the power of a person's mind, not the power of a supernatural being.

Thus I still use a mantra to help me get to sleep at night, and to relax during the day. But I no longer believe that the mantra has some mystical power, or is being sensed by a divine being. It makes me feel better, which is all I need.

Yes, I realize that prayer also makes religious believers feel better. That's why I said in my previous post:

Recently a couple of people have asked me, “What’s wrong with believing?” after listening to one of my rants about the power and glory of Faithlessness. It’s a question that is akin to the more basic query: “What’s wrong with feeling good?”

Because religious belief does make many people feel better. Yesterday on a cable news channel I saw an interview with a female doctor about the power of prayer. She said that she had a patient who now was almost totally paralyzed.

He told her that prayer and a belief in God’s goodness—that there was a divine reason or plan for what had happened to him—was sustaining him. Seemingly you can’t argue with that. Whatever works. 

That still makes sense to me. Whatever works.

And this will be different for atheists and believers. Atheists with a health problem can derive the same comfort from a secular practice as a religious person can get from a faith-based practice.  

Comments

[777]

-
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Brian :
"That still makes sense to me. Whatever works"

Yes
That still makes sense to me. Whatever works best !

RssB Meditation is not prayer
It is Being the Tremendous Delicious Anahabd Shabd

Like "Before Abraham I am"

777

-

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Brian

Interesting that you quote from Philip K Dick, whose characters often enter entirely different dimensions, or alter reality itself through different states of mind, some of which are drug induced. Check out Valis, Man In The High Castle, and Flow My Tears, The Policeman Said. In Dick's works, characters can alter time and history, or leave this place altogether for another, through changing their own mental state, though doing so requires a transcendent experience.

Dick is actually following a tradition in modern science fiction which was started by Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan) in his science fiction adventures of John Carter, who, through nothing more than longing combined with mental focus, was transported into a different body and onto the planet Mars, while his body remained at rest, and without aging, here on earth. In Mars, JC leads a subjugated race to the victorious, if gory, overthrow of their tyrants.

As is often the case, fiction reflects subtle truths of this world.

Had you followed you Master's instructions scrupulously you would be viewing your own discomfort and your own body from a dispassionate and objective distance much of the day, returning only to fulfill your accounts, as unpleasant as they generally are, only briefly. You would be free many hours of the day simply to walk out that door and enjoy the company of good friends amidst beautiful gardens. Such is the power of devotion to your Master... The same as mine. You would not think to ask to have that fate removed, since it is a minor part of your daily life.

That is in every one of us. But it must be a strange destiny that keeps that door and those worlds from so many.

No one wants to walk into darkness, but treasure and love wait there for us, where fear is set aside.

Those regions are so vast, there is room for everyone. This entire physical creation could be absorbed into any higher region, as if it were no more than a grain of sand on a vast beach spanning the entire globe. So there is never a question of whether someone is more special than another or more deserving. There is no dearth there. To claim so would be to brag about water or the sun or the sky as if someone owned those things. It is waiting for you, Brian, and anyone serious enough to go there, just as easily as a character in a PKD novel.

[Spencer Tepper]

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away."

That is the reward of meditation, and the transcendent mystical experience. I think this is more internally consistent with PKD's entire body of work.

[Anita]

Dear Brian ,

I always admired your sincerity in your posts.
I do think that prostate enlargement with urinary retention symptom , is very common in male population, especially as men get older .
As per the way you deal with that, I am not the expert, but I will express my humble personal opinion .I do agree with you -Pain is a symptom of suffering and reminder of the Present to everyone . I think we are conscious through Experience . Pain is one of them. Nobody can avoid the discomfort and unpleasant feeling of pain, even pain intensity is a subjective feeling.
Faith in God , Master and meditation can shift the Attention away , but cannot cure the feeling of pain and physical suffering. Religious people who have faith in God , consider that God will take care of it. Other people that believe in Karma will accept the suffering by identifying it with karma that needs to be paid. In either case , the mind process accepts it with less resentment and frustration . Another saying in buddhist literature is :Pain is certain, suffering is optional. Subjectively speaking ,meditation and devotion will change the perception of pain .

As we age, the thought and feeling of losing control of our physical strength and body ,brings from time to time fears, desperation and guilt sensation. I think by embracing our reality of mental and physical suffering it helps to make the suffering less and find a solution, if any.
There is nothing wrong to take a Xanax when someone is going through anxiety , pain .
I do not see something wrong with pain management under physician supervision.
I think accepting the fact that our medical care is based on scientific studies of so many years, it helps the feeling of shame or guilt or failure while taking medications. I think we are lucky to live in the present years , since our science of human body and research has progressed so much.

One way or other we need to help our body to feel better and have more quality in our daily life. This could be mentally by meditating , praying , repeating mantra for some people and for others by following medical advise or combination of both.
I think by accepting the reality and sometimes visualizing the worst can happen and embracing those fearful emotions and feelings , it lessens our fears of Unknown.
At the end , it is a fact that animals have a survival instinct , while we as human beings are aware that one day we will leave this world . This physical body is not permanent. Personally, I think by accepting our impermanence in this physical world helps creating feelings of gratitude, genuine humility and compassion. It helps us to realize that pain is also part of our human nature and gives us strength to do our best until our cycle in this physical body will end.
Anita

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Anita

You wrote

"it helps the feeling of shame or guilt or failure while taking medications. I think we are lucky to live in the present years , since our science of human body and research has progressed so much."

I'm not sure I understand your comment about shame or guilt. The body is a piece of equipment subject to wear and tear. Any form of repair, including the assistance of modern medication, seems no different than repair of anything else here. If it improves functionality and reduces discomfort it seems entirely natural and responsible. Old remedies or new, they are both human inventions. Why not make the best use of whatever is available?

There is no end of suffering here anyway, so let's comfort one another and get through it as best we can. There is no purpose to suffering. No real Saint uses suffering to get someone's attention. But if they do suffer the Saints provide a means of escape. However, that is no substitute for our responsibility in this world to take adequate care of ourselves, and in this way, our duties. That includes any medication from a reputable source.

I'm still not sure of your reference to "shame or guilt"?

[Jen]

Brian, thank you for this honest post. I read the other post on HinesSight as well. I know how you feel. I recently discovered I have an age related female problem which was a very unpleasant surprise. My first reaction was, why doesn't anyone warn us about this. Its very challenging.

I have accepted it now and have heard that younger women when they have children are told about this possible problem and that there are exercises which can prevent such happening to them in the future.

I've been whinging to myself about how lucky men are. They don't have to go through giving birth and then when they're old suffer from this sort of problem. So now you have cheered me up... sorry that sounds weird!

We all suffer sometimes and like you say I also feel gratitude now when I see someone in a wheelchair and people battling with all sorts of nasty health problems. Life is tough when we get old but we can still be thankful.

Acceptance is the key. I seem to be managing okay without the guru's help. Also not knowing whether there is a god, or life after death or such a thing as reincarnation and karma... whatever!

[Jim Sutherland]

Brian, your only 68. Wait intil you get my age or older, i.e. 75! It gets worse!! This could turn in to an " Organ Recital" post, if all the suffering old Geezers chime in, but just to let you know most males our age are not Whizzards, but most of us suffer taking a Whiz! I was diagnosed at age 60, and went on Flomax for 18 months, then quit because of side effects and monthly out of pocket costs. The next years, I think I must have tried just about every over the counter Herbal pills hyped, and looking back, they were all nothing more than Placebos. But I continued to research the Internet, always fearing I had Prostate Cancer, and like you, kept it a secret from all except my wife. I will never go the Chemo and Radiation route, so decided to must go on suffering with the slow process of the Prostate growing and working harder to squeeze out a Whiz! Until age 70, it was more maneagable, until I started traveling and trying to manage Air flights to China, India, Australia, Etc. Sharing a Rest Room with hundreds of others at 30,000 feet Altitude and trying to squeeze out a few dtops of urine that feels like you just injected 6 ounces of Jalapino Juice is a challenge, to say the least! Also, I have taken several 10-17 day Bus Trips accross the U.S. With 40 other aging Geezers , most of them with the same problem. Try stopping at a Truck Stop along the high way , or a McDonalds in the middle of Any Town USA, and see how it feels to share a single Stall where you can do your Catheter " Business" with 20 other males standing in line waiting for their turn! Or being in Asia trying to manage the " Squat" holes in the floor, while both Genders are walking in on you, as its a free for all. After awhile, we are forced to loose trying to be modest, and just have to "let it all hang out" ( Pun intended) and take as long as necessary to squeeze out as many frops of Jalapino Juice as possible in order to survive the next hour with out feeling fire in the loins! I have read every Internet Forum possible on Protate Cancer, and know that if I have it, I will never go the Chemo route, or Radiation, nor let a Urologist take any Biopsies, that make men pee blood for days after, plus spread cancer cells all over if they have it. I have decided to do every thing I can do natural, as possible, until I have to do what one of my friends has to fo. He has a Catheter inserted thru his stomach in to his Bladder. It gets infected often, creating other problems, bur at seventy seven, he is still managing. I haven,t got that bad yet. Sounds like you have a way to go as well. Urologists will do what they have been trained to do, as Auto Mechanics do. I avoid both of them, like a Plague, as long as possible. I will be at the Dera Oct. Fifteen, hoping I will be able to find enough Johns to get me by. I will be gone a month touring Bhutan, Nepal, and No. India, so my Whizzing problems are going with me, and I am not ready to give up and die as long as I can keep squeezing out enough drops to keep me from dying. With out further discussion, I imagine you have your program managed, as per your Urologists instructions, but in case you are still searching, the best over the counter Herbal Remedy I have ever found that is far more than a Placebo, is Prostate Miracle. I have been on it now for about two years, and will stay on it until I die. Its the only Pills I can actually testify that really dilivers the results hyped. But no one believes Charan visited me inside, and told me my body needed Asprin, so why should any one like you believe me that Protate Miracle will help you to take a Whiz? But in case, here is the Advertisers Link, that initially got my attention, which I finally responded to. now, I would rather forget my underware than my Prostate Pills, because they get me thru the day. Good Luck, but be prepared that every year older will present a bigger challenge! Meditation in to the Void removes all pain.
http://www.best-prostate-formulas.com/compare-prostate-formulas.html#prostate-plus

[vinny]

Saint Kabir verses against paanch shabd / five names

Santo shabdai shabd bakhana , shabd phaans phasa har hoi shabd nahin pehchana
[ Saints , I will tell you the real shabd , eveyone is caught in play of words ]

Paanch shabd paanch hai mudra , so nischay kar jaana
[five names and five poses , person who thinks they are true ]

Tiskey aage purush puratan , tiski khabar na jaana
[ Beyond those five names resides God , but the person trapped in five names doesn't know about it ]
If you read the full composition , names & stages mentioned by gurudom propagators are mentioned in it.

[D.r]

Brian, it isn't anything to be ashamed of to admit you prayed in a moment of pain. We are hardwired for religion and God belief, despite claims to the contrary you often come across.

A question to ask might be why? It seems preposterous to me to believe that all the design and order we see around us as this universe and within ourselves as reason and discovering mathematical laws and how things work in nature isn't the product of a God. You can call it "x" if it makes you feel better but that doesn't change the facts. You can counter with poor design, suffering, pain and accidents but that doesn't change the facts either. That is just an emotional response.

I'm not a fanatic; I had an experience of God. It came to me without my consent or endeavor to seek it, though I was seeking in general like most people probably are. The way it came to me, the quality of it, had a marked effect on my life and thought afterwards that wasn't the product of any volitional change of mind on my part. It just happened to me. So I know that God exists now. It wasn't like before where I needed to believe blindly though I chose to believe anyway. I had times of feeling atheist or agreeing with atheist conceptions too. I was just a general agnostic for the most part. And then this thing happened to me and it is impossible for me to doubt or to go back to a place of agnosticism. I am not a saint, far from it.

I've prayed many times since that event. And guess what? Nothing seems to work. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to get God to come back. I suspect there may be some things I could do but then I can't impose myself on God and demand he answers my prayers.

And yes, it was an internal perception that was given to me. Can I prove it? No. Do I want to prove it? No. Does anybody really care? Probably not. I care though. And that is enough for me.

[One Initiated]

Jim
Your comment brought me goosebumps.

Jim and Bryan, I feel for you guys.

Jim, do you know the composition/ingredients of the medicine Prostate Miracle ? Can you please share them here ?

If you guys consider the homoeopathy medicines, I would like to mention here this medicine Sabal Serrulata - It's a plant and being used in raw/refined form in the herbal medicines as well. But in Homoeopathy it is, what they called, potentized and it can work to a great extent to relieve the pain if it suits the patient... especially in the troubles of Enlarged prostrate and many other urology problems.

hearty wishes of good health from a younger brother.

~OI

[Jim Sutherland]

OI, you asked the ingredients is Prostate Miracle Pills.

In their Link, here is what they list as ingredients, but the QUALITY of the Beta Sitosterol is the Key, and where it comes from, and is Soy free. I buy the 6 Bottles at a time, so about $20 a month for some thing that is not a Placebo is a real gift, to me, at least. I paid $125 a month in the past for Perscription Flo Max that gave me lots of unpleasant side effects that didn't work as good as Natural Prostate Miracle.

Contains:
60 capsules per bottle (30 servings)

• Beta Sitosterol (600 mg/serving)
• Zinc (15 mg/serving)
• Selenium (70 mcg/serving)
• Vitamin D3 (2,000 iu's/serving)

Serving size: 2 capsules
Suggested use:
1 capsule twice per day

[Richard van Pelt]

The Phillip Dick quote is, to me, the essence of existentialism. It gives me as much peace as I would ever get from prayer (which is not to say that prayer ever gave me any peace).

[Jen]

Brian,

I have been seeing a physiotherapist whose advice has made a huge difference by teaching me how to do very simple, gentle pelvic floor exercises. I can already see and feel the difference in my prolapse (my bladder is also involved).

I just looked up to see if there are any exercises for men. Perhaps find a good physiotherapist if you can. You can make a difference if you know how and this helps with our plummeting self esteem.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/mens-health/in-depth/kegel-exercises-for-men/art-20045074

Sorry to sensitive people who don't like to hear about bodily malfunctions ... back to godly stuff :(

[Anita]

Dear Spencer,

I would like to answer your question regarding shame and guilt and I will be very straightforward.
Personally and through my profession I have noticed that many people that follow different spiritual paths ,would decline taking any medications especially controlled substances like benzodiazepines - Xanax for anxiety or Opiates for pain or Antidepressants. They would suppress their medical needs and define their mental and physical needs according to their spiritual or religious beliefs.
One real simple example-- A christian priest that had preached all his life, at 83 year old was diagnosed with a terminal illness. He was very angry, depressed , resentful at the time of diagnosis until he passed away, His doctor had to remind him one time regarding Bible teaching , but it is easy to teach then practice I think . I agree that there are some real Spiritual masters that practice what they teach. I do understand regarding Saints that they consider pain or suffering minimal , since they believe and practice afterlife journey. It is my personal opinion that many of us that follow a path , would benefit from psychoanalysis or medications sometimes.
Many times suppressing our unfulfilled desires , not letting our subconscious express fully and not being our Own Self in the name of the Path creates many esoteric conflicts and does not allow oneself's potential to expand. The brain develops defensive mechanism against different doubts or challenges regarding our absolute beliefs and values that are conditioned many times from our environment since childhood. We learn how to Identify ourselves with the new beliefs and experiences without ever questioning them.

I absolutely , would agree with my Friend Jim that sometimes-plant extracts like beta-sitosterol and other natural remedies help and with less side effects then medications. I think whatever works for everyone . At then end happiness is a Choice.

Best regards,
Anita

[Jim Sutherland]

Brian, and others with Prostate problems. Before I leave ths subject, I have learned by experience a few other things that really effect iritation of the Prostate. This stuff is all verified on the Internet , where I originally found it.

ALL artificial sweeteners irtitates the Prostate. I use as little as possible, usually only one pac a day in my Coffee. Also, Coffee, with caffine is a Diuretic, so is a flud retainer, but I am a Coffee addict, and drink 2 quarts per day when I am home, but much less when traveling. I try to drink water when I am home and have access to a toilet, but drink as little liquid as possible when traveling, for obvious reasons.

Saw Palmetto is a hyped Prostate Herb that doesn't work! I used it in various doses for years in many dfferent Products. In fact, it makes the plumbing worse, with long term use, because it coats the inside plumbing restricting the urine flow more! I experienced this, and the Betasitosterol will dissolve this coating as it is used, increasing the flow and decreasing the pain.

If you look at the male anatomy plumbing on the Internet in diagrams, you will notice that rhe Prostate is on the bottom, discharge side of the bladder. Obviously, as the Prostate swells, and restricts or squeezes the tube going thru it, the bladder is unable to gravity feed when the bottom check valve of the bladder opens, so fluid with all the impurities build up isside the bladder, settling on the bottom, plugging the check valve so it no longer opens! That's when Urinary infection happens which sends you to ER to get cathorized when you are unable to open the check balve in the bladder because of precipitation of disolved soilds that have become solidified!

There is a Science to Wizzing, Brian, so if you are the Scientist you claim to be, you will need to do your own experimentation with your own medication and plumbing.

Not to get kinky, you also should not ignore where semen is created in your plumbing, and where it travels when released when the Prostate tube is restricted! You will need to figure this out for your self, but If you don't drain that plumbing occasionally, it solidifies and you will need do a Roter Rooter job when a pump no longer works!

That's all I can share. But as in meditation, each to their own. What ever works.

[One Initiated]

Jim,

Thanks for sharing such a useful information.
I totally missed the link you provided in your earlier comment.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Anita!

I absolutely agree with most everything you said (what I could understand of it). Shame and guilt should be added to the list of the negative powers: Lust, greed, anger, attachment and pride.

Yet, we are often plagued by them. And there are times when it seems they are justified... We can make mistakes and inadvertently harm others or ourselves. I hold to what my Master taught me. Let these things go, they have no value. Excess baggage. We must do our best. Even a bad decision may be in our destiny. Certainly, with our limitations, it is inevitable. I think we plague ourselves unnecessarily with these reactions and notions. But we can take a positive view. That's what meditation really is, a means of respite and sanctuary in a turbulent life of ups and downs.

When it's over I think most of us will look back and say "meaningless", except for every act of kindness, including those we showed to ourselves.

[777]

Jim
first I went through the AD pages u provided and they don t say what s in and that is suspect
Perhaps I missed it because of old age ( 80 ) :-)

Ok half my life i consume some products i also recommebded to Brian direct, when I saw the problems

50 mg DHEA - docters say the extra testosteron coming from that gives prostate cancer but I always believed the inverse and my PSA is ONE
One is new because it always was 0,6 ( it shocked me.
I started to take 100 mgr a few mothes ago
I advise it 100%
The testosreron makes a little bit more horny at times which might be strange for an housefather after 40 , but these are other times and the anahabad shabd goes not away
and that is my biggest delight
I am enormously anti - hypocrytical

2)
Saw Palmetto
It should be in your pills I took it also the last 45 years : 2 sessions of three weeks per your
Sometimes forgot

3)
Fresh Flaxseed powder : cost 14 $ p/5 Kilo
any farmer
It prevents ALL cancers
When you have cancer 3 teaspoons p/day
If not so : 1 teaspoon 3 times per week

I have advised many times and it works always

4)
Vit E : 500 mgr p/day for your immune system

5)Magnesium, Phosfor for Brain like Ging Szn

6) And yes : A WHOLE aspirine per day
Charan was right - Yes He does all thet
If only He had done that Himself ? . . . !!!

Also at least : what is allways a dangerous time delay at brain issues , . . waiting for scanning
With your aspirin yes it will never be an emboly

Sant Mat is such a sweet way to prevent all worrie becaus you experience
110% that you are no way the molecules around you
but you are the delicious Permanet superbe soundstream an you always was
When you die physically it's just leaving the movie, the theathre !
But You know that JIM

It's and always was for compassioneted ( no agenda ) individuals
empathy for all life , specially animals

RSSB 's Master is only like : How to make the maximum out of it
but is no must at all
Yes that Max is outstanding - and unbelievable we are with exers here discussing the depth of the well they are in

Courage Brian

I m not aiming Sach Khand because I know I have one more life to go

777

I

[777]

As Anahabad Sound Stream exists in a kind of DA-Energy field°°° ( between astral & us ) between the human Epiphysis and the Hypophyse ( producing also nasty tinnitis vibrations in mostly meat eaters because of the uric acids harming chakra-tunnels rotations
( i explained earlier )
I think tinnitis are cracks on the damaged/broken vinyl LP

Recent CT scanning proved that tinnitis has no relation with the ears
like Shabd has none

This non-relation of our IQ with the Soul came forth after the first blood was consumed
So eve gave Adam probably a steak and not an apple after the Banksters of that time changed the sory line in "apple"

Under many changements of them I consider the noble KAIN, a vegetarian versus ABEL, the butcher of the lambs

Cheers

777

( fake news > very old , they still tell you on cnn )

[Turan]

Yep, things were going fine health wise, always quite fit - gym, mountain walking etc. - then hit 70! Over the next few years a cartilage went in my knee, then diverticular disease, next lymphoma, followed by angina and lately prostate problems - peeing like a faulty tap and worse of all, not being able to go at all! But regarding the prostate, meds to relax the muscles around the area helped somewhat. Oh yes, and my hearing's deteriorating.

I consider myself lucky; had no nasty genetic conditions, bad accidents or viruses or mental health problems during those seven decades. The above 'post seventy' health issues are mostly to do with the very natural process of aging. Some people I know started them earlier; others (heading toward their eighties) have not had any problems -yet.

Right now I'm ticking along so-so. I miss my previous fitness but hey, like I say, I've been lucky. Have no worries about dying - how could there be when there is no 'self' to worry about some sort of continuation. The 'self' tries to avoid death through it's various stories and beliefs; it (the self) is the only thing (structure) that creates the fear of life and death so when it is seen that there isn't one - problem solved.

[777]

Sorry turan , Must that bediventicular disease not sure

I ask cause the daughter of a friend has a pacemaker because of is-ventriculair problems
gives much anxiety
and seems the pacemaker doesn t do a good job

So the heart chambers don't correctlycorrespond
Anybody with news about that

777

[Turan]

777. The disease I mentioned is diverticular disease, a Latin term meaning pouch. It occurs when 'pockets' form in the large intestine or colon and can sometimes become inflamed causing pain. It is more a nuisance than life threatening - although my mother had it, left it too late and it burst poisoning her body - but she survived another 30 years. But sorry 777, I don't know about is-ventriculair.

[Alistair]

My mother, now dead, used to say "Old age is not for sissies".