All religions are not alike. Radha Soami sects are wrong about "shabd."

I'm always (well, usually) glad to admit when I've been wrong about something.

So I'm pleased to say that during my true believing days, which stretched into over 30 years, I was decidedly wrong about the world's major religions having a common denominator.

Namely, an all-pervading conscious spiritual energy known in India as shabd. Various "Radha Soami" sects claim it is possible to return to God by connecting one's individual soul-consciousness with this universal divine-consciousness -- which manifests as inner sound and light. 

Wikipedia says:

Shabd is referring to spiritual current which can be perceived in meditation as inner light and sound. Yoga is referring to the uniting of our real essence (soul) through an inner listening with focused mental concentration (surat) upon an inner sound (shabd) which it is maintained emanates from Radhasoami the Supreme Being. It is therefore taught as the unchanging and primordial technique for uniting the soul with the supreme being via the power of Shabd.

Following the practice of meditation under the guidance of a spiritual teacher who is himself in contact with Shabd, is considered of paramount importance.

Pre-requisites for successful achievement of the meditation practice are a lacto-vegetarian diet, abstaining from drugs and alcohol, and maintaining a pure and moral lifestyle.

Now most people, religious or not, would find the description above to be at odds with the teachings of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, and even Hinduism. 

To offer up some examples, Christians believe in the divinity of Christ, obviously. They don't meditate "under the guidance of a spiritual teacher" unless they're in some sort of a cult. Buddhists don't believe in a Supreme Being, nor in a soul. Islam and Judaism don't promote vegetarianism, though some members of these religions may choose to be vegetarian on their own.

And certainly adherents of the world's major religions would never go to their church, temple, mosque, or wherever and hear someone preaching the glory of shabd as the "unchanging and primordial technique for uniting the soul with the supreme being."

Yet some (and maybe all) of the Radha Soami sects claim that their "shabd yoga" spirituality is part of the core of every religion, even if this isn't widely recognized. 

To which I now say, bullshit, though I used to say "so true." Radha Soami followers have to stretch religious scriptures to the breaking point to find mentions of shabd in them.

To them the Gospel of John supposedly praises shabd because of the words, "In the beginning was the Word." But "Word" is a translation of the Greek "Logos," and one would be hard-pressed to connect the Indian notion of Shabd with the Greek conception of Logos as it is used in the Bible. 

In some recent comments on a Church of the Churchless post, there's a debate about the universal nature of Radha Soami teachings. 

As you should be able to tell from the above, I'm in agreement with "RS Sceptic," who wrote:

The notion that SHABD is some kind of universal truth and the way of all religions is a myth propagated by radha soami. It is not true. All religions are not the same. They don't all teach shabd yoga. Once you believe this then you think sant mat is the only way and only truth. It is not. And by the way I am not saying this because I hate rssb or anything like that. It is a simple observation.

Yes, all religions are indeed not the same. And it is very rare to find any argument about this. When have you heard a Christian, say, claim that every other religion agrees with the central tenet of Christianity? This would be a ridiculous assertion.

Actually, the world's major religions revel in their differences, not their similarities. Each claims to have some special understanding of the cosmos that the others lack. So we'd have to believe that the followers of Radha Soami sects somehow comprehend other religions more accurately than members of those religions themselves.

I can't accept that. Nor can I accept that shabd is a common denominator of every religion. 

 

Comments

[Neon]

I can see that people would be fooled extremely easily with this logos-word-shabd BS. but what does logos mean? Won't RSSB just say logos = word = shabd?

[vinny]

Gurudom thrives on artificial manufactured love of one guru imposed by fear inducing tactics in the hearts of disciples. In Sufism they say " Qalb haibat sey larza hai insaan ka " means Qalb (heart ) of every insaan (human being ) is already full of fears & phobias. Gurudom propagators take advantage of these natural fears residing in heart & mind. If anyone feels divine love / ishq for a penniless poor Sufi mystic / Majzub instead of any millionaire guru , gurudom propagators would be rattled & activate their editing machinery to distort true teachings of Sufi mystics. Saint Kabir in many verses has busted the practice of simran /mantra repetition of any kind in any religion.
Saint Kabir has emphasized the importance of ishq / love to reach the truth. Only ishq / love has the power to obliterate the tendency of nafs to drag Ruh into carnal desires. This evidence clearly shows that Saint Kabir was a Sufi not some yoga master.

[777]

OMG, . . Wow and flabbergasting

Tell that the >M people who hear this beautiful Sound 24/7
Who have daily spiritual ecstasy

It's a strange karma you follow -
The more you abstain from all this delicious sweet fabulous and exciting beauty the more you write about its non-existance

You can still try, . . you know how and the quickest way is with Love !

Not to speak about all those wonderful objective serendipities (miracles or impossibilities ) happening each day

You can still marry The Ocean, be quick, don't hesitate

777

not to speak about the wonderful reductions in corporal pains of karma

-

[Osho Robbins]

There was a time when I thought I had luckily been born into the one true philosophy in the world. All others were false religions.

My ultimate proof was that I would, one day soon, arrive at Sach khand and would have absolute knowledge of truth.

I would be able to leave my body at will and traverse the regions all the way to Sach Khand.

Compare this to Islam and christianity. What did they offer?
Nothing - just a belief. Believe that jesus died for my sins and I am saved.
seemed like nonsense to me.
and RSSB books confirmed it was nonsense.

Shabd yoga was the only truth.

I was 100% convinced that all religions were started by perfect masters like
jesus. nanak, kabir,

it is actually very believable and makes perfect sense,

If a christian says that christianity is not about meditation or shabd, I would simply have said that they don't know the secret behind the teachings.

The problem is that once a person believes, it is almost impossible to lose that belief.

So much personal evidence is collected that the possibility of it not being true is implausible.

As far as a sant mat believer is concerned, the truth is that sant mat is the one and only truth. Period.

I know because I was there for a long time.

I don't have anything against sant mat now - I just don't follow it anymore.

It is all based on belief, but the disciple is convinced that as soon as the shabd pulls him up, he will know the truth.

Then it won't be just a belief anymore.

but until then all he has is belief.

Not only does he have belief - but it does not feel so.

It appears he has the truth.

After all, after some meditation, all will be revealed.

And already the disciple might see glimpses of light so he knows he is on the way.

What other proof does he need?

The teachings cannot be questioned, because they are the lifeline.

There was a man on a train and the ticket inspector arrived.
The man searched frantically for his ticket but to no avail.
There was a passenger who was watching all this and he noticed that the man had searched all his pockets except his upper shirt pocket.
So he pointed this out to the distraught man.
"I am not going to look there," he replied, "because that is my final hope.
If it is not there, then I am really doomed"

Sant mat is also very comfortable as a belief.

The master will come and save my soul.

All I have to do is keep my part of the contract and do my best to meditate.

Who would ever leave such a path?

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Brian

I posted some information about this on an other post earlier yesterday.

You are confusing religious dogma with the mystic traditions around these religions. They are completely different.

The Word, Logos, and Memrah were all terms used to describe the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit among Jewish and early Christian scholars in the holy land and in Greece before and around the time of Christ. It is described as God's intermediary between the almighty and the creation, both one with the Creator and a representation to the created. And it can be heard.

I'm surprised you know so little about this.

This isn't a formal part of any religion, only the mystic Judaic and mystic Christian traditions.

Jesus Himself wrote of the power of the audible spirit directly, though most Christians have no idea what he meant.

When St. Paul writes that the saved will hear a great trumpet at the end of time, and be transformed, this is thematic with the mystical tradition of Shabd.

And mystic Christians have written quite beautifully about the personal experience of Schabd

"Piercing the air, the soul
Reaches into the very highest sphere
And there it hears a wholly different mode:
Imperishable music, first and without peer.

It sees the way the grand
Master works the immense zither, and the way
He shapes the holy strand
Of sound with dextrous play,
By which that deathless temple is sustained."

Fray Luis de Leon

So, Brian, as I recall the way to really hit your target is ready, aim, fire.

Not fire, unread, aimless.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi again Brian:

I just thought to share another tidbit for you and other readers about the notion that the One Holy Spirit is audible, and further, that this idea of the One Audible Spirit as the basis for the entire creation, and one with God, is very much reflected in other ancient traditions, and here, specifically early Christianity.

This is from one of the earliest Church Fathers, Clement of Alexandria. Note his description of the deathless strain (ie; unending sound) as both the basis for God and the entire creation. Clement ends with a very un-Christian religion notion, that this truth existed long before Jesus walked the earth, and is a universal truth.

"Behold the might of the new song! It has made men out of stones, men out of beasts. Those, moreover, that were as dead, not being partakers of the true life, have come to life again, simply by becoming listeners to this song. It also composed the universe into melodious order, and tuned the discord of the elements to harmonious arrangement, so that the whole world might become harmony. It let loose the fluid ocean, and yet has prevented it from encroaching on the land. The earth, again, which had been in a state of commotion, it has established, and fixed the sea as its boundary. The violence of fire it has softened by the atmosphere, as the Dorian is blended with the Lydian strain; and the harsh cold of the air it has moderated by the embrace of fire, harmoniously arranging these the extreme tones of the universe.

"And this deathless strain,—the support of the whole and the harmony of all,—reaching from the centre to the circumference, and from the extremities to the central part, has harmonized this universal frame of things, not according to the Thracian music, which is like that invented by Jubal, but according to the paternal counsel of God, which fired the zeal of David. And He who is of David, and yet before him, the Word of God, despising the lyre and harp, which are but lifeless instruments, and having tuned by the Holy Spirit the universe, and especially man,—who, composed of body and soul, is a universe in miniature, makes melody to God on this instrument of many tones; and to this instrument—I mean man—he sings accordant: “For thou art my harp, and pipe, and temple.” —a harp for harmony—a pipe by reason of the Spirit—a temple by reason of the word; so that the first may sound, the second breathe, the third contain the Lord….

"You have, then, God’s promise; you have His love: become partaker of His grace. And do not suppose the song of salvation to be new, as a vessel or a house is new. For “before the morning star it was; ” and “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Error seems old, but truth seems a new thing."

From Exhortation to The Heathen, by Clement of Alexandria, Chapter 1, as translated in Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. 1997. The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. II : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325. Fathers of the second century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire). Logos Research Systems: Oak Harbor

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian,

One more bubble to burst...sorry...

You wrote:

"Pre-requisites for successful achievement of the meditation practice are a lacto-vegetarian diet, abstaining from drugs and alcohol, and maintaining a pure and moral lifestyle.

Now most people, religious or not, would find the description above to be at odds with the teachings of Christianity.."

Au contraire...

From the above author, Clement of Alexandria:

Be not a flesh-eater nor a lover of wine, when no sickness leads you to this as a cure. But in place of the pleasures that are in these, choose the joys that are in divine words and hymns, joys supplied to you by wisdom from God; and let heavenly meditation ever lead you upward to heaven.
-Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to Endurance or to the Newly Baptized

[Brian Hines]

Spence, you either didn't read my post very closely, or you're attempting to be misleading. It always is possible to find some people in any religion who have views that are out of the mainstream. My point, which really is virtually irrefutable, is that the world's major religions have major theological differences, and "shabby" is not one of the similarities.

Sure, it is possible to bend and stretch the teachings of these religions far from the mainstream view. But this is akin to saying that global warming isn't happening because 3% of the world's climate scientists don't believe human carbon emissions are increasing temperatures. Likewise, you've been selecting quotations in the same manner Radha Soami Satsang Beas does: highly selectively.

In my view, this is intellectually dishonest, because it doesn't accurately reflect the core teachings of the major religions. For example, Christians don't believe in a "living Christ" like RSSB does. And they also don't believe that vegetarianism is necessary to be a spiritual person. Sure, some Christians believe this, but it isn't part of mainstream Christianity.

If you're going to be consistent, then you should view how I see RSSB/Sant Mat as being as reflective of the RSSB teachings as any other source. After all, I've written a RSSB book. I'm a RSSB initiate. I've meditated my entire life. I just have a different view of RSSB than the mainstream. So why is it that you're so willing to cite non-mainstream sources in other religions, but you stick to the mainstream view of RSSB/Sant Mat?

[vinny]

One of the mureeds (disciples) of Khwaja Baqibillah asked him the meanings of the Sufi terms ‘fana’ [annihilation in God] and ‘baqa’ [Everlasting subsistence in God]. The Shaykh said, "When I die, ask this question to the person who reads my funeral prayer."
Finally a man, his face veiled, came forward and read the funeral prayer. After the prayer as the veiled man walked off the mureed remembered his Shaykh's answer and ran to the veiled man and grabbed him by the arm. "My Shaykh asked me to ask you a question about what is fana and baqa'" he said. At this the veiled man removed the veil from his face. It was Khwaja Baqibillah himself! "The man whose funeral prayer you have just read is fana", he said, "and what you see before you is baqa!"
Reference: a talk given by Shaykh Professor Tahir ul Qadri called Waliyon ki Pehchan at the shrine of Data Sahib Shaykh Ali Hijwiri in Lahore and available at minhaj.org

[Bob]

I would say that the closest similarity between Christianity and Sant Mat is not Shabd but redemption. Christianity claims that Jesus is the redeemer of souls while the guru is the redeemer in Sant Mat. Both paths are based on "promises" (beliefs), which may or may not be true. Most satsangs I ever attended were just a repetition of certain beliefs with no factual information based on anyone's first-hand experience. It's odd to me to call something a "science" while forbidding those doing the experiment (meditation) from revealing the positive or negative results of it.

[D.r]

Brian, (sometimes I accidentally type Brain, which might work for you!)

You have more in common with evangelical Christians here when you say things that are skeptical of other religions and mystical things. I think your analysis is spot on.

Mysticism is really woo woo big time. It is amazing to me how gurus can read esoteric themes in scriptures. They go to a hell of a lot of trouble to concoct such theories. I once had a book by Charan Singh wherein he tried to reconcile his version of meditation with the New Testament, especially the book of John. Sometimes people asked him questions (this might have been a different book) and it appeared he had no valid answer to give. What is striking about this is that normally gurus give answers but Charan seemed to be ready and willing to admit he did not know something. Perhaps in that there is some form of consolation for the many people who have been hoodwinked into sant mat over the years.

It is worth pointing out that the book of John in the New Testament uses some terms and concepts that would have appealed to Grecians around the time it was written because John was trying to win them to Christ. His use of the word Logos is very interesting because normally speaking in Greek it had a specific meaning to the philosophers of that time and John actually used it and kind of twisted it around to refer to Christ whilst retaining it's basic meaning. This is the real scholarly understanding of it and yet the mystics and gurus and their followers actually believe it references the ancient mystery religions and the associated esoterica. But that is not true at all!

You will search in vain to find a passage in the Bible that talks about God being a sound and a light. If you REALLY study the Bible properly those so called esoteric concepts just are not in there, though to the untrained reader it might appear as though they are.

[vinny]

When a disciple met Tat Wale Baba & told him that he was a bad man.
Tat Wale Baba replied " You are a good man , it is only your inferior nature (Nafs) that is overcoming you " . Tat Wale Baba , a great mystic of Rishikesh who had stopped ageing after 35 yrs & was shot dead by a rogue.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian:

You wrote:

"If you're going to be consistent, then you should view how I see RSSB/Sant Mat as being as reflective of the RSSB teachings as any other source. After all, I've written a RSSB book. I'm a RSSB initiate. I've meditated my entire life. I just have a different view of RSSB than the mainstream. So why is it that you're so willing to cite non-mainstream sources in other religions, but you stick to the mainstream view of RSSB/Sant Mat?"

Brian, I did not comment on RSSB's take on Shabd in ancient literature.

I gave you my take on it.

Notice that I cited only ancient christian early writings.

RSSBs notion That the Holy Spirit can be witnessed as sound and light, is the very source of creation, from a spiritual perspective, is in each of us and is the stream of life that connects us with the creator is my take from these early Christian and Judaic writings. It is in fact almost word for word what Clement of Alexandria wrote, and is reflected in events and passages in the Bible.

It happens to coincide, for the most part, with RSSB literature.

You put forth two arguments. First, that the audible Spirit is a purely RSSB notion, and second, that it isn't found in any literature of any other religions.

You are wrong on both counts, sir.

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost
2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
Acts 2:1-4

When Jesus describes the Spirit, Pneuma, as a loud wind that can be heard.....

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
John 5:1-8

[Spence Tepper]

Brian, one more point.

The fact that formal religions often obscure or ignore much of their own sacred texts is not new.

The Nicene council nearly two thousand years ago did much the same, censoring all the mystic teachings of the Essences, burying or burning books they didn't agree with, etc...

The statement that the early Christian and Judaic mystics wrote things that are not part of mainstream theology today is exactly the point I made at the very first reply I provided. Mystic teachings that surround the early years of Christianity, and abound at that time among Jews, is also a tradition. Just not the main one.

Did you ever wonder what happened to the twelve tribes of Israel?

They went on, and have their traditions. They are reflected in mainstream Judaism today as reform and orthodox. As well in Christianity, you see in Pentacostalism echoes of personal experience of Spirit, and in Unitarianism echoes of the notion of One Spirit, as you also find in Native American religious practices.

But the formalities and rituals around these religious schools are all quite different and very culture bound, filled with ignorant and bigoted views.

If you read the Sermon on the Mount, Christ says so many mystic and very clear things, none of which are actually part of current Christianity.

The very Christians who go to war, collect guns, to replace what once was faith, is evidence that "turn the other cheek" or "let the one who is without sin cast the first stone" are lessons entirely lost.

So, current religious practice, which is entirely distant and conflicts with that religion's own teachings...not just the mystic ones, is evident in many religions.

Formal religion is no reference point. Dig into the original teachings. Try to understand what is really there.

As for global warming, we have science. But if you say you won't ignore scientific fact, then why do you ignore the writings of the early Fathers? That is certainly direct evidence of their own views.

So, you may take your argument with Clement of Alexandria, or with Jesus Himself, since what you have written is distinctly contradictory to their words.

You would be in suspect company, siding with today's formal ritualized religions.

[Spencer Tepper]

Not just a coincidence. Not just one single passage. The entire Holy Bible contains the same subtextual message cover to cover about the audible Name of God, that we can hear God, that God and the Name are in fact one and the same.

"28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one.30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."
Mark 12:28-29

“My father David had it in his heart to build a temple for the Name of the Lord, the God of Israel."
2 Chronicles 6-7

"See, the Name of the Lord comes from afar,"
Isaiah 30:27

"Sing to God, sing in praise of his name, extol him who rides on the clouds; rejoice before him—his name is the Lord."
Psalm 68:4

The Lord IS His name... His name IS the Lord. They are one and the same.

"Our Redeemer—the Lord Almighty is his name— is the Holy One of Israel."
Isaiah 47:4

"15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.

16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted."
Psalm 89:15-16

The Name is audible. The name and the sound are synonymous here with the Presence of the Lord. Those who hear it all day long are in the very presence of God, and it is joyful.

[777]

-

OMG
When we ( rssb initiated ) go to the mall while enjoying the mega sweet Sound,
the whole mall is in blossom and bloom

If a detective followed us , he would be objectively amazed because of all these buyers and sellers : smiling and supersmiling when we look at them
-as if they know we won the lottery

Nothing has changed since Jesus

If 'we' have that , what must a perfect satsangi experience, i ask myself

See my comment about Gurinder and we saw him ( both of us ) in a stream of light
like we had seen and still see, Charan

You guys beas exers , just try to stop the thinking by Simran or by LOVE
Love is for the lazy
but a super straight backbone in the beginning will help enormously
If U never did that , you might have done only contemplation

Don't be aware of breathing becaus that brings you to the 5th chakra
where things are nice too
like the 4th of Ramana , Vivekananda and the Christians actually

Go High Go Go
So much to gain
In 5 minutes everything can change , but keep that back straight

777

ps
It s all about energizing chakras and we do the Crown
where all these Angels have a crush for (aliens too)

This Path is so easy . . . like falling in Love with the most delicate delicious sensual and mega beautiful (wo)man on the planet
OMG
Stop the talk
just GO

-

[juan]

Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh in his book THE MASTER ANSWERS on HOLY BIBLE

The difficult problem with the Bible is that Christ himself never wrote it; otherwise we might have had a true interpretation of his teachings….

Through his disciples they got his teachings which you find in the Bible and these teachings are not complete. Most of them have been suppressed. The teachings of the apostles were written as though of Christ, and they too have come down to us today through so many translations that EIGHTY OR NINETY PER CENT of them is lost in the process…

The real teachings are something very different from what is being told through the organizations and churches….

If the teachings had been written by Christ, or somebody had taken notes of his teachings, they would have been pure Sant Mat. Those teachings would have been far different from what we have today. So many things were suppressed by the Church and by the interested peoples. ONLY THAT MUCH IS GIVEN TO US WHICH CAN KEEP US UNDER THEIR HOLD….

So just by reading the Bible, we cannot understand the teachings of Christ. We have to fish very, very deep for his whole teachings…
Besides this, some people who have ulterior motives suppress certain things which interfere with their own way of thinking…

…If I am not interpreting wrong, The Perfect Master has made it clear that we should rely only on the teachings of Sant Mat.

[777]

Spencer :
Those who hear it all day long are in the very presence of God, and it is joyful.

YES
and yet more :
IN & but also OUT of meditations -just on the street- the Sound will take you up, like a lover, so tender -take any love song and it is that, so prudent , . . because it can be a hurricane, next you know that you really ARE THAT and always was, next you need 3 months to adapt
crying for more

This is not standard so quickly - many souls need to quench their curiosity
and it is given

Be sure that God is that Sound and HE loves us deeply
Light came from that Sound and is just one of zillion methods to create more Love

Really it's a kind of shame to quarrel about this or that book

Jap Ji and Rumi Poems come the closest

You are ALL HIM , Gods in human form , the Giant Love Generator without an end

777

-
OoH exers, . . You are so close !

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Spencer,
Read the comment on the other topic I just posted.
You can believe anything and once you do – it appears true.
You will make it fit.
So, once you BELIEVE (and that is all it is – a belief) that the SHABD is the
central truth behind all religions, you will look for and find evidence of it.

Spencer, that is what you have done above.
Let me quote what you quoted above:

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’

8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
John 5:1-8

Any normal person reading this will not say that Jesus is referring to the SHABD just because he says “wind” and “you hear its sound”

It is a huge stretch of the imagination to say he was referring to shabd.

Another example you quoted

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost
2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
Acts 2:1-4

This cannot refer to shabd. It has nothing to do with shabd.
The RSSB and sant mat follower MAKES IT FIT.
The sangat gets brain-washed and think it’s all really true and their faith gets stronger. This is a trick.

It is even more trickery to have all these speakers who preach the party line.
The sangat start to think that all these people cannot be wrong.

They assume they are speaking from their experience, when in fact they are just speaking like parrots. Their testimony proves nothing. They are preaching to the converted.

There are no sceptics in the audience.

Brian wrote several RSSB books. So he is considered an authority in the field.
Gurinder acknowledges his knowledge and expertise – otherwise he would not have asked him to write those books and RSSB would not have published them. So when an authority says something, pay attention, as he probably knows what he is talking about.

The truth is that meditation and shabd and vegetarianism and the same moral codes are not common with other religions, unless you force it to fit.

How does a follower of any religion remain in the religion?
By not questioning. If he questioned, he would be considered a sceptic and alienated. That is what happened to Babani. He started a law suit against RSSB. That is a big no-no.

Hence he way he was treated. How come Gurinder didn’t attend Babani’s funeral? How come we don’t all know about the death of Babani and the master coming to take his soul ?

The fact is that he gave his whole life to RSSB and what reward did he get?
Can nobody see this? Are all the RSSB followers blind?

Let’s just say that the Sawan Sadan story is fake. Well then why was Babani sidelined and we don’t even know when he died? Is that how Gurinder treats those who served RSSB all their life?

[Tom]

Babani story was trolled.

[Dungeness]

Any normal person reading this will not say that Jesus is referring to the SHABD just because he says “wind” and “you hear its sound” It is a huge stretch of the imagination to say he was referring to shabd.

Why? God, word, spirit, sound, etc. could only be expressive attempts to describe the creative force behind all phenomena. Different times, teachers, languages would all shape and twist the final written outcome. If it exists, how could you capture an transcendent, all-encompassing power with human language. Metaphors would have to fill in the blanks. Then wannabe's would re-interpret, dilute, misstate, and generally mangle even those attempts.

Real understanding of God, Allah, Christ, consciousness, the creative force, etc could only be gained experientially. Otherwise, its meaning will forever be "blowing in the wind" I suspect. For all of us...

[Goku]

Osho Robbins, I've done a lot of reading of books by Eckhart Tolle, Jaggi Vasudev and Osho. But, I'm into RSSB.
I don't believe in it, I have trust or faith in it. Do you know what true faith is?
Question is, why are you obsessed with proving that RSSB is a lie and a scam? Why not have the decency to atleast consider it to be a device? And credit it to be a catalyst to your growth?
People are obsessed with their minds. And then there are people like you, obsessed with awareness. There should not be any higher plateaus for you to reach, right?
No godliness and no higher forms of love. Nothing beyond the comprehension of your consciousness.

Don't be silly. You should re-read books after letting go of your out of the world prejudice and biases.

[Spencer Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic

When the Bible says that the holy spirit was witnessed as a loud wind in two places in the NT, and as a loud trumpet in both OT and the NT in several other places, it was and as a joyful sound in the Psalms, and then you write this has nothing to do with the fact that spirt or hearing the spirit, and you demonstrate the same crushing power of denial that people use today to deny global warming.

And rather than provide any scholarship at all, you raise your opinion to the level of fact.

This is the problem with what you and Brian have done..

You are in ignoring basic and literal statements in ancient texts, and even modern research into meditation without any evidence to support your opinion.

You can deny anything you like. But it makes your judgement baseless.

Had you written something like "Yes, and the author of the Acts did describe the Holy Spirit as having a loud sound on the day of Pentacost," or "Yes when Jesus described birth into Spirit He did write that those born into spirit witness that as a wind they can hear, and but cannot locate,", you would at least demonstrate your ability to read and and acknowledge simple words.

But instead you write a that, "no, it didn't say that."

Lord Tennyson wrote that the one Spirit had a voice that could be heard, and that it we are wise we should listen to it. I pasted a large section of his poem so you could see it in context. But you dismiss it saying "no it didn't say that."

Fray Luis de Leon wrote that the holy spirit was an uplifting and power that raised his soul to the highest sphere, and where could hear the finest of music there that sustains that highest realm.

But you wrote a "no it doesn't say that."

If you cannot acknowledge words on a page, why? What is clouding your capacity to acknowledge words like" voice", and "music", "wind," and"hearing wind" when these authors from ages past use such to describe the spirit?

When in the psalms it says those who hear the joyful sound enjoy the same Name of God all day long, and and live in His presence, and but you state "no it doesn't."

What fuels your futile and fruitless effort to paint over the reality of actual statements in text, even the written words of others with outright denial?

When Jesus is asked what the most important Commandment is and he states, the first, the Hear the Lord, and the then states the Lord is the one, the and then goes on to tell us to love the lord with all our might and heart, and we and only then continues to tell us to love one another, you write, "he didn't say that."

Yah. Jesus did.
Yah. Fray Luis did.
Yah. Clement of Alexandria did.
Yah. Tennyson did.
Yah. Charan did.

[Spencer Tepper]

One final point, RS Sceptic

I don't believe Brian is an authority on the RSSB.

I don't even take the books by the Masters as fact.

I do my own research.

Where is yours?

[s*]

......I feel very sad.. about the story of Babani..Very sad!
And strange that nobody talked ever about it.
He song tender shabds the first time meeting babaji..after´ loosing´ maharaji..
It melted my heart at that time..
s*

[777]

""" 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
Acts 2:1-4 ''''

This might be activation of the 5th chakra, the throat
It goes often together with the Heart Chakra

Today we still see that seriously @ the Pentecote Communions
perhaps Born Again too

All stuff is all about chakra tunnel rotation activation , down to Voodoo

Chakra rotation can even go anti clockwise with desastrous results
symbolised by hitlers A-swastika
as opposed to The most Holy Sign , the Swastika , rotating clockwise
( see the hooks as rockets )

777

777

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Spencer,

you wrote
"One final point, RS Sceptic
I don't believe Brian is an authority on the RSSB.
I don't even take the books by the Masters as fact.
I do my own research.
Where is yours?"

Don't make me laugh.
What research have you done. Your writings show you have firm belief in RSSB and cannot see beyond it.

What research do you claim?

I don't need to do research because I am not supporting any belief
I am debunking the false beliefs

"Holy Spirit" of the christians is not the shabd of RSSB
not even by a great stretch of the imagination.

You are making it fit.

Brian was a recognized and authorized author - a pretty big accomplishment.

You try becoming an author that RSSB publishes.

[D.r]

RS Sceptic wrote that the Shabd is not the Holy Spirit, and this is absolutely correct. There is no comparison between them at all.

The Holy Spirit involves conversion, regeneration, sanctification and justification, terms completely alien to Sant Mat.

[Spencer Tepper]

RS Sceptic

Hmmm.

1. I'm not discussing RSSB. I'm not qualified to do so. We agree on that.

2.I am discussing spiritual literature down through the ages which references the Holy Spirit as audible; as our connection to God Him/Herself; as the force that created this creation, and which sustains it; which is our comforter, our true Teacher, our true Savior; and which raises the soul all the way back to its source.

3.That definition is not the exclusive property of any religion. It was here long, long before Tulsa, Swami Ji, Rumi, Tennyson, Gurindar, even Jesus Christ.

4.That definition is found in the works of some of the great spiritual teachers. I can't say all. But for many.

5.I have given you those direct citations. Your argument is with them, not me. Tell Jesus He didn't mean what He said. Tell that to Tennyson or Let's. You cannot even acknowledge their words on paper. So if you must say "you didn't mean what you wrote" that is between you and them.

6.Brian admits his own limited experience, therefore he is not a perfect resource for the philosophy of Sant Mat. To quote the great business management writer Peter Drucker, 'working on a job for thirty years may not be thirty years of experience. It may just be one year repeated thirty times over. "

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Spencer,

there is no such thing as the shabd or audible life stream or whatever name you want to give it.

It does not exist.

It only exists for sant mat followers because they believe it.

The concept that God is LIGHT and SOUND is not common to all religions.

sant mat would like you to think it is the common theme among all religions

They say it is the Tao of zen - but it is not.

The shabd did not create the universe. These are just ideas and theories and concepts. This is sant mat theory. But you think it is some kind of scientific fact.

That definition of shabd that created the universe is a sant mat concept.

Is the shabd the same as the big bang? You can make up any theories you like, but drop the idea that the shabd is some klnd of universal truth

Jesus meant what he said - but he didn't say what you twist his words to mean.

That is of course if there ever was a jesus which is buy no means certain.

It takes far more courage to leave sant mat than to remain, when you can see the flaws.

Leaving is risky, remaining is comfortable.

I never said Brian was a perfect resource. You coin these statements and deny them. When did I say brain was a perfect resource.

I just said that as an quthor of an RSSB book, obviously he was recognized as someone who is able to write the book.

Which is more than can be said for many on this forum.

Can you imagine 777 writing a book?

It would have to be called

"The book of mystery that cannot be understood

[Spencer Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic

You wrote

"there is no such thing as the shabd or audible life stream or whatever name you want to give it."

Honestly, and I say this with the most heartfelt sentiment , you really haven't a clue. Imagine never having seen the night stars. From that perspective, astronomers and astrophysicists are living in a very detailed state of delusion, by your standard. That there are others, blind like yourself, who claim the same simply emboldens you claims.

But the truth is you aren't blind. You simply are functioning in the total absence of any experience in this realm.

If you are a scientist you are proven wrong time and again, but a passionate scientist doesn't call it that. They rightly claim at each failure, and each subsequent challenge to their funding, they have learned something new.

However, unlike a scientist, you, Sceptic, don't wish to do the work of actually conducting any research or experimentation. You think you are above taking that risk. The real risk of living. You would have to expose yourself to being wrong all the time.

Try the meditation. Or any meditation. At least do something clinically proven to help your thinking and the health of your brain. Then, at least you can acquire something healthy for yourself out of all this attention, but no focused effort, on meditation.

You prefer critique to actual hard work. But critique with no experience, no willingness to test your own presumptions, is hollow. Your complaint isn't against anyone else. It's a very real statement that you are worth much more, and capable of much more than complaint.

Brian gave up way too early.
But he is at a real place we all must pass through. Giving up notions, opinions, blind faith.

He just got stuck there.

Neither you nor he need to stay there.

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Spencer,

First of all I appreciate your sincere desire to help me, which comes over very clearly in your reply above.

However, I have practiced all this in the past and realized it's tainted by our beliefs and our experience.

Our beliefs and experience determine the conclusions we make and the conclusions we make determine our reality. Our reality is how we experience and what we think is true in life.

It is a self feeding loop. It is why we are all delusional.
Even if we think we are not. and that includes me.

The reality that we experience is largely determined by what we do inside our heads.

This is now KNOWN information. The above statement is from NLP

NLP shows how we create our model of reality in our minds.

check out this website

http://jevondangeli.com/the-nlp-communication-model/

and take a look at the image on the right top.

[777]

-
-
U want to be right or do u want to be happy ?
-
Pundits vs Love
-
777

-

[RS Sceptic]

777

U want to be right or do u want to be happy ?

Being RIGHT and BEING HAPPY are not mutually exclusive

It is not a choice of one or the other
you can be both

[777]

-

rarely correct but it happens
One can observe: "C'est le Ton qui fait la musique "
:-)
<3

77

-

[One Initiated]

Imagining that the God is an imagination is a false imagination.

If you think that God only exist because you can imagine HIM,
Try to imagine an 8th Color or an 8th Musical Note.

Think in silence is it just a coincidence that there are 7 chakras, 7 colors and 7 musical notes ?
There must be some greater reality to these equations ?

[Goku]

Children grab thought constructs and feel happy, for they have found something that's their own or part of themselves.
People drop the thought constructs, and grab "awareness", which seems to be more closer or more true(that which works).
Now, is there really something called Godliness?
Or is it something that only the mind can think of?
If it's something that only the mind can think of, and we can't become aware of, so it should be dropped, right?
Well, no thought constructs bring the experience of awareness.
Awareness just Is.
Thought constructs can only point towards awareness.
Similarly, awareness can only help point someone towards Godliness, it doesn't take you there.
Many universes exist in the same space, but you can never interact with them, since your physical body or anything physical you know, isn't made up of them. The probability of their existence is 1.
Awareness is mind-based. Godliness is soul based.
Enlightenment doesn't takes you to the state of no-mind. It just makes you very mindful.
After all, you start shining the light of awareness or pure mind, on everything.

I really don't see anything worth my time here anymore.

[Osho Robbins]

People believe certain things. Once they believe, their reality changes.

This is simply hypnosis. and if you study hypnosis you will see that they it is a matter of scientific fact that we create our own reality.

Whatever we believe, becomes true in our world.

There is a principle called "Perception is projection"

What we project is exactly what we perceive.

In this youtube video - Paul McKenna hypnotizes people of the audience to make them believe they are someone else.

so he tells someone "you are Oprah Winfrey, you are Bill Gates"

and those people talk and act as if it is true.

take a look;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRP_Qxw7OI0

and here's excerpts from Paul McKenna's hypnosis shows

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhgKgkRNIb4&t=4548

[Osho Robbins]

I came across this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLWM0t4A2NU

at 2:30 Matt says "I don't have an explanation, and you do, so why should I accept your explanation"

Now it gets very interesting because

the christian caller has no answer except that - "The Bible says so"

when Matts says "Why should I care what the bible says?"
the reply is "because it's the word of God and the truth"

Now - this is nothing but BELIEF. unfounded belief.

matt says "How do you know it's the word of God AND the truth?"

The reply comes back: "it's inspired by God"

Matt asks "how do you know that?"

"From the book itself" is the answer.

This is a circular argument. People who believe in RSSB also have the same type of logic operating.

Their foundation is: Sant Mat and specifically RSSB is the truth
What the masters say in the truth
because I see light and hear sounds it PROVES it is the truth
and one day I will get to Sach Khand and then I will know for sure

any argument against this position is met with:

"You have to meditate and you will get personal proof"

However, what is personal proof? and who really has it?

seeing some light, maybe some visions and hearing some sound
is not proof of anything.

You then project your own meaning onto those experiences.
and that becomes the proof that you are getting closer to the goal.

NLP and hypnosis has the answer: it's your projection (which comes from your belief) that creates your perception that this is real and true.

So if I was not a believer and I meditated and saw light, i would not attribute that to the guru, but to the simple practice of sitting in meditation.

[777]

""" seeing some light, maybe some visions and hearing some sound
is not proof of anything. """

yes . . . all chakras can produce phenemonon(s)
but when it comes to the Crown Chakra

It's not "some light" , it is 100%

BEING that Light and BEING The Sound 24/7 , day & night
at all times

777

[Je Suis]

1. For the disillusioned I think a read of Radha Swami Teachings by Lekh Raj Puri would be in order to bridge the gap between RSSB and Santmat. And
2. Yes - Naam, Word, Shabd, Logos etc., etc., are esoteric teachings. Its the unstruck sound that can be heard and seen only by the soul or as RSSB and others call it "the anhad shabd".

[777]

-

What's RSsB
Let's try it poeticly, . . . perhaps you might see,

I speak of a man that won the lottery , . . .
and married the most beautiful girl on the planet
Find out that he is the greatest componist ever
each shower he takes is elixer,
Sound & Light
Overwhelmed with Joye
which grows each day

millions are applauding , trillions comforting him
but
5 exers
tell him He is unhappy

777

-
PS
So much Fun

You can have it ALL ! . ; . but not MUST have it, . . Tucson

[One Initiated]

Dear 777,

That was the loveliest and greatest comment of all time.
Thanks so much for sharing.
It's an honor to read an account like this live.

And it's just so sad that greater number of people tend to not believe the live accounts.

Lots of Love.

[OshoRobbins]

777 wrote another cryptic comment

which one initiated has now gone on record to state that it is
"The GREATEST comment of all time"

he ends with
"millions are applauding , trillions comforting him
but
5 exers
tell him He is unhappy"

So exactly which exer has ever told anyone that they are unhappy?

If a person is happy on any path they choose, it is a good idea to continue

I, for one, have never told anyone following RSSB that they are unhappy.

That is for them to decide and none of my business.

I, like everyone here, am simply explaining my point of view.

and anyone can take it or leave it.

There is no battle being fought here and it is not a war zone.

I have a satsang of Kirpal singh in USA. Someone asked him
"Which line of masters are you from?"

after his answer, the questioner said "I am already initiated by a guru from that line of masters (sawan)"

Kirpal answered, "That is well and good. I am just offering something. If you are happy where you are - that is well and good. I am not enlisting people for war."

[OshoRobbins]

A lot of people here seem to have different ideas of the teachings. So much so, that it seems like there are as many paths as people who follow it.
Everyone seems to have their own unique beliefs and think they are true.

so....

I have a few questions for those who are familiar with the RSSB teachings.
Just simple true/false answers.

1. When the disciple reaches the first region, he becomes all powerful. He is then a Perfect being. True or False

2. All the regions were created from Anami region. True or false.

3. The region known as Anami has no beginning and no ending. True or False?

4. Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan. True or false

5. The "opening of the shabd" - this is the same as hearing the Dhun and enjoying it's bliss. True or False?

[Jazzy]

I think it’s important to avoid the miscommunication that humans add to a pure message from a spiritual master.

He/She never claims to be less or more than an equal human.

He/She never asks for anything except that you live a moral life and focus on your own life and practice.

He/She, just as many other living masters from various sects, only suggests that you meditate.

He/She, when asked about other religions, never claims that there is only one path to obtain enlightenment... only that He/She is offering a simple practice to follow if one desires.

I believe there has been a lot of misunderstanding in this post and mean no disrespect to your perspective, beliefs, and/or opinions.

However I was born into a RS family. I have never been initiated because the spiritual master himself says that it’s up to us which path to choose so I decided to not be a part of any religion OR the RS community so I went off on my own to gain knowledge and understanding of various religions/spiritual paths. Sure enough the universe or God or Source or Allah or whatever anyone chooses to call Him/Her/It introduced me to insanely beneficial books about the mind through experience and manifestation. It introduced me to other free spirits on the same free path as mine.

My point is that PEOPLE in the culture and community make it SEEM and FEEL like a cult so I completely understand and resonate with that part of your perspective. However after opening my mind and listening to ONLY what the various masters had to say, the message was the same... one of love, meditation, and moral and conscious living.

So if one path doesn't work for you, don’t give up on spirituality and consciousness altogether (unless you really want to of course).

But meditating on my own, reading and gaining knowledge on my own... has completely transformed my life. I went from being a broke, drug addicted alcoholic to being completely clean with a good job and happily, peacefully, blissfully, and responsibly living on my own and having a really good job.

Now I’m in the process of awakening further and getting multiple businesses started. I love being alone. I got onto Medical Medium and automatically was inclined to become a vegan with no outer influence.

The masters continuously say we have everything within, we need only look. When you fill yourself up with love, and become love, you are surrounded by love. Mine and my family’s lives have transformed COMPLETELY after this last bit of misunderstanding was cleared up.

I see what the people do, so I listened to what the masters say and detached and nothing was the same.

“As within so without”
“Seek and you shall find.”

It truly is all the same. LOVE. Unconditional, unbiased, love of the self and others. But you can’t pour from an empty cup so you have to start with yourself. They all just say meditate. The path of the mind calls it conscious breathing or meditation. Christianity and Islam calls is prayer. No one is telling anyone to be perfect or to ONLY be on one path. Every soul is on its own separate journey. No 2 snowflakes are alike. No 2 flowers are alike. And no 2 paths are alike. This one was just not the one to reach you with understanding, but knowledge is power so never stop seeking it. Stay blessed y’all.

[Sonia]

I have a few questions for those who are familiar with the RSSB teachings.
Just simple true/false answers.

1. When the disciple reaches the first region, he becomes all powerful. He is then a Perfect being. True or False

2. All the regions were created from Anami region. True or false.

3. The region known as Anami has no beginning and no ending. True or False?

4. Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan. True or false

5. The "opening of the shabd" - this is the same as hearing the Dhun and enjoying it's bliss. True or False?
Posted by: OshoRobbins | October 24, 2017 at 11:42 PM

@Osho
I have no idea. I burned the books a long time ago. I don't think what you have mentioned here is very "modern". I'm not interested in things like what the jivas are up to, or the meaning of any ridiculously specific concept listed in books like Path of the Masters. I like "Contemporary Sant Mat". I might be alone on that, but that's just fine with me.

@jazzy,
Very nice. :)

[Osho Robbins]

@Sonia
I posted that three years ago.

it was taken directly from sar bachan.

the point was to show how much our ideas have changed since the original sar bachan

the answers you give today will not match what was written back then

so how is it the same path?

that was the point.

that the RSSB path today is NOT the same as the path of swami ji in 1840 / 1850.

if swami ji came back today and saw RSSB as it is today - he would distance himself from it.

if guru nanak came back today and saw sikhism today - he would distance himself from it
because it is a far cry from what he was teaching.

God was asked
"Why don't you go down to earth and manifest there as a godman?"
God replied:
"Are you fucking nuts?
I sent my only son and the little fuckers crucified him.
Just imagine what they will do to me when I say "I am the big man himself""
and so it came to pass that god decided never to manifest himself on earth
since then he has never been seen on earth and atheists now rule the earth