Indian guru convicted of rape. His followers riot, killing 32.

Ah, the craziness of religious belief is on full display in India.

First, Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh, a guru who claims millions of followers, was put on trial for raping two women in 2002 at the headquarters of his Dera Sacha Sauda group in the town of Sirsa.

The guru

His devotees apparently were anticipating that this supposed God-man would get better legal treatment, considering his purportedly divine status. 

The town ordered an indefinite curfew to stop his followers from gathering but thousands had already left for the town of Panchkula where a court was due to give its verdict.

Singh drove in a convoy of cars from his Sirsa headquarters to the court down a deserted highway, accompanied by hundreds of police.

Ram Niwas, a senior government official, said mobile internet services had also been suspended in the states of Haryana and Punjab to stop people from spreading rumours and causing unrest. The army was on standby.

In 2014, the attempted arrest of another guru on murder charges ended with his followers attacking police with clubs and stones.

But the guru was found guilty. That kicked off riots which have killed dozens and injured hundreds.

At least 32 people were killed and more than 350 sustained injuries as Panchkula turned into a virtual warzone after Dera Sacha Sauda chief Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh was found guilty of rape by a CBI court on Friday. The followers of the godman have gone on a rampage in three states. The rioters torched at least two railway stations, a power grid and petrol pumps in Haryana. In Delhi, a train was set on fire in Anand Vihar and two buses were also torched. Media persons, including News18 staff, came under attack. The government's claims of keeping the situation under control fell flat.

Sure, religious believers will say this is an anomaly and doesn't really reflect on the glory of God. I disagree. Fanatic beliefs often end in fanatic behavior. 

When people believe that God is on their side, and they're confident that what they're doing is God's will, horrible things often are done in the name of an imaginary divinity.

This is just one more reason to forsake blind belief and embrace open-eyed reason. It is highly dangerous to believe that you know truths about reality that are hidden from others and that there is no possibility of your being mistaken. 

"I don't know" and "I could be wrong" are sentiments that should be cemented in our minds. Otherwise, even if we don't riot and kill people, we'll be prone to other sorts of fanatic dogmatism that were violently demonstrated by the followers of Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh.

Comments

[Usha setia]

I have been reading your blogs and have had experience personally through my husband who became reborn Christian and then joined Amway in spite of being a successful orthopedic surgeon! He started breathing eating and talking nonstop about bible and plugged his ears and listened to amway tapes 24/7. It destroyed our family and led to divorce as he got involved with a woman who also loved this cult . I m always skeptical about these deras and their spiritual masters who prey on the weak and vulnerable people who get convinced by these selfish people who become rich ! I m so happy with the verdict from cib on this so called God guru who castrated his male devotees but raped his women devotees.

[RS Sceptic]

This is what happens when believers are fanatical.

This guru is a Radha Soami guru as his origins are from Sawan Singh.

Maybe he thought he was invincible. Started to believe his own press.

As long as he never got found out he was a hero.
once he is found out - he becomes a zero.

He has made a few movies.
Perhaps he might make a new movie
"From Hero to Zero" from prison

it started with Mastana Ji in April 1949 to was a disciple of Sawan SIngh

His successor Shah Satnam Singh took over on February 28, 1960. And
Mastana Ji died on April 18, 1960.

in 1990, Gurmeet Ram Rahim became the successor.

https://www.derasachasauda.org/shah-mastana-ji-maharaj/

https://www.derasachasauda.org/param-pita-shah-satnam-ji-maharaj/

This could happen to any guru.

And because the followers believe he is God, they will do anything
including cause riots and kill people.

It will appear to be the right thing to do.

When you have strong feelings you will do anything.

If something like this happened to the RSSB guru, would not the followers
cause riots also?

[Sam]

Gurinder of Beas doesn't prey on anybody.

[RS Sceptic]

I am not saying he does.

I am sure that this gurus followers would also say the same, and will say this is a stitch up.

However, see the facts. Gurinder is not squeaky clean.

He made millions for his sons using his guru influence.

He took houses from poor people (the Babani incident) and did not compensate them by giving them the correct market value.

Is this not preying on poor people? This is the reason that Babani died a broken and depressed man. He could not reconcile this behaviour with that of a perfect master.

After all, the scriptures say that the guru is not hungry for your money - as he has the wealth of naam.

Then why take houses from poor people who only have that one asset?

When Babani came to see him, he first made him see his lawyers and take back the legal case.

That is appalling behaviour and is not in line with what a perfect master would do.

what explanation do all you believers have?

None. You just pretend it never happened, but it did.

here is the incident
https://sandeepbhalla.com/2012/07/15/babani-sahibs-radhasoami-satsang-and-interview/

It this in line with how a perfect master behaves?

Only the brain washed people will believe and are impressed by him.

How can anyone say what Gurinder does or does not do.

All you have is your beliefs.

[One Initiated]

RS Sceptic,

Just like Sant Kirpal Singh, Baba Somanath & Pritam Das, the Mastana Balochistani was not being given the authority by The Great Master Sawan Singh Ji Mahraj to be the successor or to start a separate sect.

So essentially mastana was never really the guru at all in the first place. And so the satnaam singh and the gurmeet singh were false successors of the falsely sect.

It's yet another sad episode of witnessing a faker posing as a guru - good thing is that he is exposed now - bad thing is that 10s of 1000s of innocent people are bearing uncalled pains. Loss of public property, loss of the human lives. This all is just so sad to observe.

Sceptic, you know nothing about Babani, what all you are saying is just a hearsay. You will have to meet the nephew and all the connected ones in person to know the details.
Just giving the example from an online text account is nothing but absurd.
Why in the world you would assume that someone who is not going to follow the rules setup by the Master at the Master's place should be allowed to create mess in the premise ?
And if you'd really think of it more rationally you'll find how impractical it would be to allow any one who doesn't follow a particular life style, say he consumes alcohol, consumes non vegetarian food, how good it will be to accommodate such a person in the small premise of group of families who follows the path of Sant Mat ?
Did you know whether the flat owners had a deed / lease or really the freehold property ?
If the land was owned by Maharaj Ji / RSSB society - why should it be allowed to be sold to the outsiders ? Doesn't it sound totally irrational to you ?
Did you try to read that the difficulties being faced by the disciples in the course of a True Master's teachings are being paid back enormously by the Master.
Did you enquire how the relatives are so well to do now that they have built their houses elsewhere ? Did you ever try to consider that it was great grace of the Master to them to be able to do so well financially in their life ?

Why is RSSB Dera Beas is the most beautiful and most peaceful place on earth ? They do not allow electronics, smoking, alcohol, non vegetarian food, external vehicles - call these all restrictions - but remove them and assume what the common person will do ?
RSSB is the place full of spiritual bliss, mental peace and these worldly negativities are simply not allowed to be entered there. whether you like it or not.

About RSSB, please sincerely track down the history of all the Masters at RSSB and you will come to know how the Masters gave away their lives taking on lots of things on their own.

What you are comparing is not comparable really.
To whichever inner state a disciple is, if he is not abide by his Master's orders, he is a failed disciple - for whatever state he has been advanced to, was only due to the blessings by his Master and not by his efforts.
You are comparing a failed disciple with the accomplished Master.

Whatever has happened, the loss of the human lives, the troubles to hundreds of people - this all is truly sad and is upsetting. This shouldn't have happened had the beings like gurmeet singh didn't pose himself as guru. The poor have suffered uncalled losses because of the false guru and blind following.

It's just like those unfortunate poor patients who gets trapped with the cheaters disguised as medical practitioners who rob them of their money and making their medical condition even worse... despite many cheaters in medical profession, there are truthful doctors and surgeons exists who helps thousands of patients and treats them well.

~OI

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Brian!

You wrote :
"This is just one more reason to forsake blind belief and embrace open-eyed reason. It is highly dangerous to believe that you know truths about reality that are hidden from others and that there is no possibility of your being mistaken"

That certainly was true of the Atheists Robespierre, Hitler and Stalin. Each had faithful followers, each murdered millions of innocents. Any faith in a system of belief, even Atheism, even a political belief, can be dangerous if it is blind faith. Any time you can't say "they might be right, I might be wrong.." about others you find yourself talking serious umption with, you are in the danger zone.

And yet the inability to trust, because we are not omniscient and stubbornly refuse to take that risk, also has led to the tragic deaths of millions, such as the refugees who were refused sanctuary by some distrustful Americans.

There is no escape from the risk of trust and faith. Even a scientist must have faith in and act on what is only a hypothesis, if that has any hope of becoming theory. And sometimes that faith must sustain for decades of careful refinement before the hypothesis can be tested under the correct controlled conditions.

The answer is not to not trust, but to have a reasonable basis for trust.

Publicity that gives false praise and credit for good deeds to a personality are no more dangerous than those which slander falsely.

A reasoned approach rejects slander, however attractive to our beliefs, as readily as false praise.

To judge a human being you may choose to trust the courts... There are many rapists among those with no belief in God....

Or you may, more intelligently, reserve such judgements when all the facts are at hand and when your judgment leads to a change in your own behavior. Usually yourself, first and foremost.

[Brian Hines]

So Spencer, tell me this: I've admitted that I have no problem saying "I don't know" and "I could be wrong" when it comes to matters of spirituality, religion, God, gurus, and such. Are you willing to entertain those same thoughts?

Specifically, when it comes to Sant Mat, Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and Gurinder Singh, are you willing to say "I don't know if these teachings are true" and "I could be wrong about the truthfulness of my beliefs"?

I look forward to your answer.

[RS Sceptic]

One Initiated, you are clearly brainwashed and unable to think clearly.

If you want to go by "being appointed" as the basis of whether a master is a true master, then you have some real issues to answer

1: Jaimal was never appointed by Swami Shiv Dayal
we know this as a fact because his name is not even mentioned when asked about successors.

2. Swami Ji himself was not appointed by his guru.

Besides, exactly how do you know Mastana was not appointed?

Was you there?
obviously not
so it's just hearsay.

You don't know anything - just what you believe which is RSSB propaganda.

Even if I don't know about the Babani incident, one thing that is clear is that he was depressed after the meeting with Gurinder.

Why would he be depressed?

Obviously he realized that Gurinder was not a perfect master if he has no compassion for poor people.

He would rather the RSSB society gets richer than care about the lives of those people who paid for their property.

This is not the behaviour of someone who is steeped in the spiritual life.

Jaimal was not concerned about material things at all. He told sawan that he would get stuck in the dera if he created it.

RSSB is now a religion the same as any other. It has beliefs and followers. It is not a science. It's a religion.

Those who follow are blind. Babani just saw through it before he died.

most followers are not so lucky. They will die believing the lies

[RS Sceptic]

scientists do not have faith and trust. I don't know where you get such crazy ideas.

A scientist proposes a hypothesis, then runs experiments to test that hypothesis. There is no place for trust or faith in the process.

Also he has no allegiance to the outcome. He seeks truth.

[RS Sceptic]

Brian says
"I don't know" and "I could be wrong"

believers find it hard to say this because they think their beliefs are the truth. They think they know.

They are sure they are right and cannot admit they could be wrong.

Believers have it all worked out

[RS Sceptic]

your information i am pasting the bababi incident here.

what becomes clear is that RSSB is a greedy and corrupt organisation
not a spiritual organisation.

the disciples spend their life serving the organisation thinking they will get some
spiritual benefit.

All they get is a kick in the teeth.

none of the gurus have any loyalty to their disciples.

Gurinder has made a fortune using his position as guru.

the disciples are seen as dispensable.

here is the article with the details

As is obvious, the elderly gentleman who is described in this account is Mr. Krishin Babani, Waking Now’s late father in law.

----------------------------------

A Look into the Beas Dera Culture
By Waking Now

Hi,

I have been reading posts here for some time and have appreciated that many of you have seen through the façade of RSS Beas.

I came in contact with RSS Beas as a teenager 50 years ago, slid into the cult in the early fifties, became a functionary, and officially left in the early nineties.

Since leaving I am learning to live by my own light. I have delved into the roots of the spiritual traditions of my Indian culture by readings and pilgrimages and have understood the working of the RSS Beas feudal religious cult within which I was caught for a very long time. This reminds me of the Sawan Singh quote: ‘Santmat is not taught, it is caught’, I would say, ‘Santmat is not taught, the Satsangi is caught’.

I have decided to post here in the hope that I might shine more helpful light.

Real RSSB-A Look

I met him at his Sawan Sadan flat in Bandra, Bommbay.
“Meet me before you return”, He had phoned.

“I will meet you but there are some conditions”, I said.

First condition is that I will meet you at the nearby park.
The second condition is that you will shave and take a bath and wear clean clothes.

“I am sorry I cannot meet your first condition”, he said. “I have remained in my room for so long that I no longer have strength in my legs to walk up to the park, but I will meet your second condition. I will shave and get ready”.

“All right”, I said.

He had met me some days earlier at the place where I was staying and I was shocked to see an unkempt haggard person, enter the room instead of the handsome personable man I had known.

“What’s the matter”, I asked.

“It is my fate”, he said, “My fate was made before I was born so what can I do”.

But I don’t believe in Karma and fate any more.

What, you don’t believe in Karma, you, a great Satsangi? (Mr. Babani’s quote)

No, I don’t believe in anything anymore. I just pay attention to my life. (Waking Now)

We had some tea and refreshments and did some small talk during which he would interject, “It’s my fate”.

Later, I spoke to his relatives and they said that he is getting close to 70, maybe, he is getting Alzheimer’s.

On further inquiry, I found that sometime back he had been intensely pressured to go to the Dera at Beas (“We will carry you if you don’t go”, the Official had said) to meet Baba Ji [my insert-Gurinder] to settle an old lingering dispute over his flat. He had gone to the Dera with his nephew, whose parents had lived with his Uncle, a single person, [my insert-Mr. Babani is the uncle] for the last over 35 years.

At the appointed hour, they entered the gates of the Residence where Audiences are given.

Inside, off the main path, is a Gazebo set in the garden, where people with appointments wait until they are called.

When the Uncle and nephew reached the Gazebo, they found two Dera lawyers also waiting there.

One of them told the Uncle, “You have to sign some papers before you can have Audience with Baba Ji”.

What papers?

“You have to cancel the papers saying that after your death your flat goes to your brother and after his death, to his son, your nephew, and instead you have to Will your flat to the Dera”.

The Uncle was in shock. He had flown two thousand miles for this meeting where he was expecting Grace and a just resolution of the dispute with the Dera.

He hesitated, and then said, “All right, I will sign whatever you want”.

So they brought the papers before him. He cancelled earlier entries and willed the flat to the Dera.

He was then asked to proceed for the Audience.

Both he and his nephew stepped into the room. Baba Ji was waiting together with the Bombay Secretary.

Baba Ji asked the nephew to wait outside.

Inside, Baba Ji patted the Uncle on the back and said, “Satsangis should not file a case against the Gurughar (the house of the Guru)”.

The nephew was called in. He had witnessed what had gone on outside at the Gazebo, so when he met Baba Ji he said “What will happen to my parents after my Uncle is gone”

Baba Ji replied, “We won’t take the flat while your parents are alive”.

Than you, Baba Ji..

I asked the nephew, an established businessman and a Bombay sewadar, after he recounted this [corruption in transcript-remainder of sentence lost].

Will.

“What could I do”, he said, “it is my Uncle’s Will, so his own business”.

I then asked whether Baba Ji had given in writing that he would let his parents stay in the flat after his Uncle’s death.

No, he said.

I then said that if it was Baba Ji’s intention to let your parents stay after your Uncle died, why would He force your Uncle to change the Will.

To that he had no answer.

He told me that sometime after returning from the visit to the Dera (‘Heaven on Earth’ it is called) the Uncle had refused to leave his room and started behaving abnormally.

I said it seemed to me that changing his Will under pressure at the Dera had caused deep depression.

The origin of the dispute with the Dera goes back some forty years to Charan Singh’s reign. When land was purchased in Bandra Bombay for a Satsang hall, Maharaj Ji (Charan Singh) had inquired from the Bombay Secretary of the time, a very successful Builder, whether Dera could get the adjoining empty plot.

“Yes Maharaji Ji, it belongs to me and you can have it”.

Shortly afterwards, there was discussion about developing the property with Maharaj Ji.

A mixed-use development was proposed. Maharaj Ji wanted the ground floor to be planned for offices and halls, and flats to be in the two upper floors, “But will the satsangis buy flats in the building”, he had asked…

Yes, Maharaj Ji, I have two brothers who are thinking of moving from their location and they will buy flats.

“All right then”, said Maharaj Ji

So the project was begun. The availability of the flats for purchase was announced at Satsang. Eight flats were available, four on the first floor and four on the second. Buyers came and as is the Bombay custom, installment payments began. The four flats on the second floor were made into two sets.

One set was purchased by the brother of the Secretary with a large family, and the other by another Satsangi family. On the first floor, two flats were kept for the use of Dera dignitaries (Gurinder has stayed in one of them while having a job in Bombay), one was bought by the Secretary’s brother, who was single by staying with his mother and brother’s family, and the last by another satsangi family.

After the flats were completed and the papers signed and the monies paid, the families started living there.

Some years later, the older brother with the large family had a stroke and was paralyzed.

Since the Sawan Sadan building had no lift (elevator), it became very difficult for his family members to carry him down two flights of steps. So the family decided to sell their flat and move to another in a building with a lift. They found a buyer and as is normal for people living in flats in Bombay, sought permission of their Housing Cooperative Society (because flats in buildings are bought cooperatively and the building maintained by its registered Society) which in the case was the Dera (RSSB).

To their surprise, Dera said, No, you can’t sell the flat to a non satsangi.

So they thought, as a family member told me last year, Dera is a religious society so they do not want meat eaters and alcohol drinkers.

So then they arranged to sell or trade the flat with a Satsangi who was living in a building with a lift and again asked the Dera, their housing society, for approval.

No, the Dera said, you can’t do that; we must first approve the Satsangi buyer.

They were dismayed and sought an explanation.

“You can’t sell your flat”.

‘The flat belongs to us, you are not Owners of the flat, you are only Occupants. The price you paid for the flat was not the purchase price but was to be treated as a deposit.”

The Satsangi owners were in disbelief. The found themselves in a strange predicament unheard of among flat owners in Bombay. They spoke to the Bombay Secretary, the Builder. Two of his blood brothers (not just satsangi brothers), had bought flats.

From family sources, I learnt that the Secretary discussed the situation with Maharaj Ji (Charan Singh). He told Maharaj Ji, “When the Satsangi had bought the flats, it was not so that they were to be Occupants and the purchase price was to be a Deposit.”

Maharaj Ji was unmoved.

(It did not matter that the Satsangi owners felt misled or misinformed and their equity (life savings) in a flat in Bombay was at stake. Or even that the devoted Satsangis, dependent for protection of their worldly as well as spiritual well-being on their Guru, could have made an honest mistake.)

‘No.”, Maharaj Ji said, “The Dera model must be followed. The Dera owns the property.”

The Secretary wilted, he could not stand up to Maharaj Ji. (He could not go against the RS teaching, the obedience to the Guru is paramount.)

A family member recalled to me last year. The Secretary came back from the meeting with Maharaj Ji and told his brother Satsangi owners, “Donate your flat to the Dera, you will get 10 times in return”.

The flat owners did not agree. It was a question of their life savings. One of the ladies of the family recalled the event and commented, “Donation is by choice, it is not forced”. Another lady said, “We were a large family, we saved with great difficulty to buy the flat.” One said, “It was not the Secretary who was being skinned”.

Instead, the Satsangi owners banded together and hired a lawyer.

The extended family of the Secretary was split. “Why had the brothers living in the flats disobeyed Maharaj Ji”. The brothers no longer had good relationships. This attitude even extended to their children, the cousins-one set looking down upon the other. Even in 2001 when I met some of them, there was alienation.

The Dera threatened one of the Owners who also had a house at the Dera, “Withdraw your suit or we will take away your Dera house”.

The suit was not withdrawn. The Dera house was forcibly taken away.

The Dera then started other intimidation tactics. A board was erected in front of the property saying that it belonged to the Dera and no one could engage in buying or selling the flats.

A Bombay RSSB committee member was chosen to front litigation. As a family member recalled, He told Baba Ji, “I am a Bombay flat owner…I know they have rights, how can I be a party to the case”.

“Do it,” Baba Ji said, “I am behind you”.

He submitted that and complied.

The paralyzed brother had died. Fortunately, his children had prospered in their business and constructed a house elsewhere.

The Dera then started tackling each owner separately. They persuaded the wealthy family to give up their double flat now worth nearly seventy times the original price, and promised them a flat at the Dera. The family did not want any more hassles and were wealthy enough to afford to donate it. The other owners pleaded with them, “You will break our band, and weaken our litigation, don’t settle”. They decided otherwise.

The other brother was forced to will his flat to the Dera.

The remaining owners until last month were still in litigation. Dera is trying other settlement tactics with them.

Last year, I asked a Bombay RSSB Committee member what he thought of the Sawan Sadan Satsangi flats case.

“Dera is wrong there”.

‘Then what did you do about it”.

“I expressed this opinion at a Board meeting.”

“That’s all”.

Silence ensued.
The old Bombay Secretary [Mr. Babani-my insert], a giant of man in business and organization skills and a famous Satsang orator, an RSSB pillar, known to many Westerners who attended Maharaj Ji’s programs in Bombay and saw him on Foreign tours, died last year, a mentally weakened man.

His son said he had Alzheimers but I found that while his recall was not good, some of his remarks were very intelligent. He was kept away from the ordinary Satsangis because he spoke things about RSSB, the management did not want ordinary Satsangis to hear. He had become critical of the RSSB.

He told me, “Now, Dera is making a fool of me. I will show them”.

I said, “I have left the Institution, you can do the same”.

“No”, he said, “it was easy for you, it is very difficult for me”.

A few weeks before he died, I had visited him and taught him the Happy Buddha Qi Gong movement, which he enjoyed practicing very much.

Some time before he died, a Dera Lawyer come and got an affidavit from him to say that he never announced in Satsang (40 years ago) that the Sawan Sadan flats were for sale. The lawyer then took the piece of paper to the brother living in one of the flats and said, “Look, you have no case”. [my insert-I was informed this was not the only false affidavit that Gurinder extracted from Mr. Babini later on his deathbed].

Ironically, his school teacher, Parmanand, who had introduced him to RS when the Bombay Secretary was a young man, during his last years, verbally abused RS. At the time I heard of a Satsangi saying that Parmanand had lost his mind.

[RS Sceptic]

one initiated,

you can clearly see from the posting above that it's not the way you think.

Babani was forced to change his will to give the flat to the dera.

You call this spirituality?

It is a disgrace to use people's faith and belief to rob them

Babani had spent his entire life preaching for RSSB and this is the
treatment he gets.

It's a kick in the teeth.

No wonder he was depressed.

people give land freely to the dera

and the dera robs people.

cut it any way you choose - this is not spirituality.

this is corruption and greed.

and only people who have nothing better to do with their lives
will spend their live doing seva and following RSSB

They think they will get their reward after death.

They won't, They are just believers the same as believers of any other religion.

there is no evidence that RSSB is the one true teaching.

everyone believes and that is why they follow. they are brainwashed.

Babani saw it clearly - and got depressed because he realised he had wasted his whole
life preaching for a corrupt organisation that just fored him to change his will in the end.

that is the thanks he got for a lifetime of seva.

of course he was going to get depressed.

when the guru cares more about your flat than you - it's a wake up call.

[One Initiated]

Sceptic,

you said:
"Jaimal was never appointed by Swami Shiv Dayal
we know this as a fact because his name is not even mentioned when asked about successors."

Brother, you have to get your facts right.
You are big time mistaken. Soami Ji Maharaj's final conversation at Agra is all in context of Agra's proceedings and that's why it doesn't have any mentioning of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj.
It appears you have not gone through all the texts and the biographies which is legitimately available from the authentic resources even at Agra's libraries.

You are surely not perceiving all the information correctly.

If you go through the text around Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj, you will be surprised to know that Soami Ji Maharaj had allowed Jaimal Ji to start giving the Naam Daan even when HE was posted with Millitary and was still on job. That was the only one of it's kind of account, when Soami Ji Maharaj still being a Guru had asked a disciple who has advanced so much spiritually, to start giving Naam Daan well before even declaring HIM the Successor.

When Soami Ji Maharaj left the physical plane and after that Jaimal Singh Ji arrived at Agra, HE was greatly being welcomed with great warmth by every one including those who were being given the authority for the proceedings at Agra - including Chaha Ji, Mata Ji and Saligram Ji and others.

In front of all the Soami Ji's disciples, Saligram Ji told HIM that "you are the only real successor of Soami Ji and hence no one can sit on the gaddi when you are here".
Saligram Ji offered their gaddi to Jaimal Singh Ji for sitting even for the meetup and Jaimal Singh Ji politely denied even sitting on that.

Then Mata Ji brought the Pagadi which Soami Ji Maharaj had left especially for Jaimal SIngh Ji and the rasam pagdi took place right in front of all of the existing disciples of Soami Ji Maharaj there at Agra at that time. And Mata Ji conveyed the message to Jaimal Singh Ji that Soami Ji have ordered you to take on the proceedings at Beas, Punjab.

All of the above with much more greater details is available both online in PDFs as well as hard copies I believe.
Please read through them before keeping false perceptions.

Also I would recommend you you to go through the book Spiritual Gems (part 1) which is the beautiful conversation b/w Jaimal SIngh Ji and Sawan Singh Ji... and you will get all your doubts cleared up related to the construction of well and the Beas Satsang Center.

And why I am here telling you to go through these books is because I have seen you frequenting here and mostly telling the partial information many times in many comments. I think it'll be of your great information once you go through the above texts and books.

Lots of love to you.

~OI

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Brian!

You wrote

"So Spencer, tell me this: I've admitted that I have no problem saying "I don't know" and "I could be wrong" when it comes to matters of spirituality, religion, God, gurus, and such. Are you willing to entertain those same thoughts?

Specifically, when it comes to Sant Mat, Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and Gurinder Singh, are you willing to say "I don't know if these teachings are true" and "I could be wrong about the truthfulness of my beliefs"?

I look forward to your answer. "

I'll give you the short course.
I experienced that travel through regions at a very early age and was terrified for years. Different sources had different explanations. My parents were concerned about me for some time and tried to give me what professional help was available at the time. When I came to the Path the description of those states was the opening of a door. No other religion, science or philosophy explained, nor today explains, in such detail the curse I had been given, which returned repeatedly and without my control or consent.

The teachings have proven absolutely correct and do so easily every day.

But at the time as a devout student of science, physics in particular, and the son of an engineer, I had great doubts about submitting to a guy in a turban half way around the world.

But those descriptions were compelling, and the philosophy of doing no harm, the ethics, were attractive. So I submitted my application and undertook the practice. On the day Mt. St. Helens erupted, and I was watching it on TV, I opened a letter to find I had been accepted by Master.

Beyond that my relationship with Charan and Baba Ji is entirely personal.

As you can see from above my daily experience provides evidence of the teachings for me, but not to anyone else.

Therfore it is possible that someone else may have different results, different experiences, and what else, what other evidence can we use?

Hard research is hard to come by on this subject. However, what is available supports the conclusion that for most people deep meditation is very healthy.

I agree with you that the testimony of any one else is suspect, and most is purely conjecture. If any scientist were able to duplicate all the stages of the experiences I've had, naturally I would conclude the theory had merit. But neuroscience is very far from that level of understanding. Yet mystics have had that for millenia. We can take some of their explanations as culture bound, but the experience is a personal and verified reality that a successful practitioner can confirm for themselves repeatedly.

And I am disinclined to believe anything that flatters my own opinion. Though many people do so. That is also a trap.

So, go with what works for you, Brian.

That's what I believe today. Every day the lab, every day effort to uncover more truth. So, to paraphrase Sawan Singh, if something better comes along I'm there.

Change is the way. My understanding of the path is so very much different today than it was, and so will be tomorrow.

Today I don't bother asking about God. It's too theoretical. But my place in this creation is much more concrete.

But I acknowledge we are each bound by our conditioning and experience.

Try to be a better critical thinker, a more perceptive viewer, a cleaner and more sensitive instrument of perception,keep your awareness and consciousness both as high as possible. Is your philosophy so different?

[Rakesh]

To "One Initiated" -

Can you share link to the online PDF or the name of the books where details of Soami Ji Maharaj giving instructions for Jaimal are mentioned as per your comment below?

"All of the above with much more greater details is available both online in PDFs as well as hard copies I believe".

[Spencer Tepper]

RS Sceptic

You wrote
"of course he was going to get depressed.

when the guru cares more about your flat than you - it's a wake up call."

You have it bass akwards, RS

When you care more about your house than your love for your Guru, kiss your progress goodbye, watch your own happiness disappear into a faint memory, soon forgotten.

As for your comments about the faith and reasoned trust necessary in science, let me help enlighten you about the courage, risk and faith necessary to be a good scientist. It is not blind faith, for it rests on evidence and reason. But until the experiment is conducted, it is unproven.

Every experiment that is truly experimental, is unproven until the experiment, under controlled conditions, is successfully completed. Then the truth is there in new evidence to support or disprove the hypothesis.

It is not the same blind and endless faith of religion, but without this temporary faith, no scientific discovery could be made.

And so science also is not filled with such cynics who refuse to take the small risk of conducting their own experiments. Quite the contrary, most scientists rush to duplicate what new results have been reported.

Cynics and those who hold to blind faith both suffer the same intellectual laziness of clinging to inadequate superstitions and cynical slander rather than taking the role of open minded personal investigation and experimentation. Try it. Be surprised. Have your opinion disproven by your own initiative and new evidence. Nothing like it. Humility and bliss all in the same moment.

The scientist is humbled by their science all the time. Even if that is their meditation. The in irritate sees their own intellectual limitations more clearly and so withdraws to a place of experience instead of conjecture and slander. And this is one reason they have access to joy: the cost is only opinion.

[Pema Tej]

Dear RS Sceptic,

Regarding the flats in Bombay....
Is there any information as to whether the Dera was willing to return the initial "deposit" made by the flat occupants once they no longer wanted to live there?
(Was the Dera at least willing to return the initial sum of money?)

But then even if they did so; the occupants believed they had purchased the flats, and the value of the flat must have increased over time....
I wonder if the occupants were offered the initial sum in return?

Also, weren't the occupants given an Owner's Title deed if they had actually purchased the apartment?
(If so, there shouldn't be a fuss about whom the flat belonged to, regardless of what the Dera says...)

There seems to be so many questions revolving around this case that it may just be more complex than what we can simply learn from just an interview excerpt that you shared... (that's my opinion anyways)....

[RS Sceptic]

Dear one-initiated,
please present your evidence that jaimal was a legitimate successor,
or even that Swami was a legitimate successor ot Tulsi Sahib of Hathras

here is my evidence

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/page1.html

"Swami Ji treated Girdhari as a Guru during this time, before he went public after Girdhari's death in 1861. There is also a possibility Sanmukh Das could have initiated Jaimal Singh after Swami Ji's death."

This is the original beas version of spiritual letters
https://www.scribd.com/doc/30632600/Jaimal-Singh-Spiritual-Letters

on page 16 are the last words of Swami ji
no mention of Baba Jaimal at all. Despite all the direct questions being asked oh Swami about who will be the successor.
He mentions everyone except Jaimal.

I wonder why no mention of Jaimal?

Beas then makes their own claim about Jaimal which is not verified by any other source.

If you are happy to go with that as evidence - then you will also have to say that Kirpal's claim is equally valid. he also says sawan told him to go to delhi and start satsang there.

And also Mastana's claim is equally valid.

Why are you happy to believe the RSSB claim (which is very weak considering all the evidence is against Jaimal being an officially appointed successor)
but will not accept Kirpal's or Mastana's claim?

All the evidence is very strong that both Jaimal and Swami were self appointed.

Girdhari Das was the successor to Tulsi Sahib, not Swami ji.

Swami used to spend a lot of time with Girdhari Das, and maybe was hoping to
be appointed the successor. When Girdhari Das appointed  Shri Dihal Saheb as his successor, Swami ji started his own mission and started initiating exactlyt a year later.

He never set up as a guru while Girdhari was alive as he respected him as a guru.

here's the source
https://medium.com/sant-mat-meditation-and-spirituality/maharaj-girdhari-sahib-a-spiritual-successor-of-sant-tulsi-sahib-and-friends-with-soami-ji-maharaj-2f8ffcb7d342

"What had been the one Tulsi Sahib group associated with Girdhari, with a satsang in Agra and one in Lucknow, became two groups: one branch continuing in Lucknow headed by Shri Dihal Saheb, and the other one based in Agra lead by Soami Ji Maharaj (Sant Radhasoami Sahib) eventually becoming known as the Radhasoami Satsang."

If you have any evidence other than RSSB unfounded claims, please show me.

otherwise - the evidence is that both Swami and Jaimal were self appointed.

[RS Sceptic]

It would appear that things are not as described in RSSB books.

Swami did not meditate in a dark cave for 17 years
instead he spent time with Girdhari das and considered him as his guru.
A year after his death, he started his own mission when Girdhari did not
appoint him as the successor.

Jaimal also did not meditate 13 years before giving initiation.
In fact he was not appointed a successor at all.

Think about it clearly. Why would Swami Ji not even mention his name when he is listing so many other names of his successors.

Why would he not say "I have sent Jaimal to spread the teachings in the punjab"

The truth is a far cry from the RSSB version.

There is also a lot of controversy over the successorship after sawan.

Nothing is as simple as it seems.

[RS Sceptic]

dear spencer,

I cannot believe how deluded you are.

"When you care more about your house than your love for your Guru...."

are you for real?

Babani sacrificed his whole life for RSSB.

He conducted satsands and held question answer sessions.

He did satsangs on the entire japji sahib satsang series.

He was Charan's right hand man and came on the world tours.

He was completely devoted to RSSB.
He knew the teachings thoroughly.
When Charan stopped all other tapes, he allowed only two tapes
to remain - his own and Babani's.
Obviously Charan valued Babani's service.

I am not sure but he might have been initiated by Sawan singh.

He doesn't care one bit for his house.

He wills it to RSSB, just be being asked.

I bet you wouldn't do that!

And you question his devotion?

You are seriously deluded.

His devotion is unquestionable.

However, when he sees that Gurinder is only interested in his house

and has no interest in his spiritual journey, he obviously realized he

had been conned.

Imagine you go to see Gurinder and he has lawyers who say to you

that you can see your guru only after you sign over your house.

I can guarantee you would not sign over your house and would instead

run far far away from RSSB and call it a con.

He simply signed as requested - trusting his guru's successor.

Then he realized it was a setup.

Why was the guru so interested in the changing of the will?

Because that was his focus. He didn't care about Babani and his life.

He just wanted his house and Babani could go after that. He was dispensible.

If you can't see this for what it is - I am afraid you are more deluded than the

followers of Gurmeet who killed 32 people.

As for your comments on the scientific method - I am not even going to comment

"let me help enlighten you about the courage, risk and faith necessary to be a good scientist. It is not blind faith... etc"

Seriously?

It's not faith at all! You can say whatever you want and make it fit.

Science does not require faith.

[Arjuna]

In Star Trek - The Final Frontier - A skeptical Kirk inquires, "What does God need with a starship? (Insert "land" where Starship is - get my drift?

This is all hiliarious - money and land have been fought over by men since time immorial. Nothing new under the sun here - God or no God.

Have a great day folks😀

[Sam]

Rs sceptic aka williams

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Pema,

the links I have posted contain quite a lot of info.

The inhabitants paid the full market value, not just a deposit.

When dera wanted them back they offered the same price paid, not the new market value.

The dera was entitled to buy them back at any time, however the inhabitants did not realise they would actually exercise this option.

This was a standard term put into the contract, which nobody expected would ever be exercised. So the buyers just ignore it as they are so happy to be in the
RSSB centre.

It becomes a point of law if it can be shown to be an unfair restriction and therefore unenforceable. That would be the basis of a legal case.

[Spencer Tepper]

RS Sceptic

Your conclusions are not supported by the meager and slanted references you site.

And that is simply because the authors have constructed their presentation of information only to their own case.

No judge renders a verdict with only the testimony of one side.

Please do your homework.

[RS Sceptic]

To all those who still believe RSSB is a spiritual organisation and is honest.

This is an extract from what I posted above but most of you never read, So I have extracted some of it - so you might actually read it.
I have bolded the relevant parts

It is about the babani incident

“You can’t sell your flat”.

‘The flat belongs to us, you are not Owners of the flat, you are only Occupants. The price you paid for the flat was not the purchase price but was to be treated as a deposit.”

The Satsangi owners were in disbelief. The found themselves in a strange predicament unheard of among flat owners in Bombay. They spoke to the Bombay Secretary, the Builder. Two of his blood brothers (not just satsangi brothers), had bought flats.

From family sources, I learnt that the Secretary discussed the situation with Maharaj Ji (Charan Singh). He told Maharaj Ji, “When the Satsangi had bought the flats, it was not so that they were to be Occupants and the purchase price was to be a Deposit.”

Maharaj Ji was unmoved.

(It did not matter that the Satsangi owners felt misled or misinformed and their equity (life savings) in a flat in Bombay was at stake. Or even that the devoted Satsangis, dependent for protection of their worldly as well as spiritual well-being on their Guru, could have made an honest mistake.)

‘No.”, Maharaj Ji said, “The Dera model must be followed. The Dera owns the property.”

The Secretary wilted, he could not stand up to Maharaj Ji. (He could not go against the RS teaching, the obedience to the Guru is paramount.)

A family member recalled to me last year. The Secretary came back from the meeting with Maharaj Ji and told his brother Satsangi owners, “Donate your flat to the Dera, you will get 10 times in return”.

The flat owners did not agree. It was a question of their life savings. One of the ladies of the family recalled the event and commented, “Donation is by choice, it is not forced”. Another lady said, “We were a large family, we saved with great difficulty to buy the flat.” One said, “It was not the Secretary who was being skinned”.

Instead, the Satsangi owners banded together and hired a lawyer.

The extended family of the Secretary was split. “Why had the brothers living in the flats disobeyed Maharaj Ji”. The brothers no longer had good relationships. This attitude even extended to their children, the cousins-one set looking down upon the other. Even in 2001 when I met some of them, there was alienation.

The Dera threatened one of the Owners who also had a house at the Dera, “Withdraw your suit or we will take away your Dera house”.

The suit was not withdrawn. The Dera house was forcibly taken away.

The Dera then started other intimidation tactics. A board was erected in front of the property saying that it belonged to the Dera and no one could engage in buying or selling the flats.

(my comment - is this how a spiritual organisation behaves? Making threats?
Wake Up - one initiated and Spencer - this is a greedy organisation and so are
the gurus. There is no compassion even in the gurus.

anyone who still believes after this is seriously deluded

and I can guarantee if this incident happened to you - you would not remain
a believer. It's easy to write it off as "It was karma" when it is someone else)

A Bombay RSSB committee member was chosen to front litigation. As a family member recalled, He told Baba Ji, “I am a Bombay flat owner…I know they have rights, how can I be a party to the case”.

“Do it,” Baba Ji said, “I am behind you”.

He submitted that and complied.

The paralyzed brother had died. Fortunately, his children had prospered in their business and constructed a house elsewhere.

The Dera then started tackling each owner separately. They persuaded the wealthy family to give up their double flat now worth nearly seventy times the original price, and promised them a flat at the Dera. The family did not want any more hassles and were wealthy enough to afford to donate it. The other owners pleaded with them, “You will break our band, and weaken our litigation, don’t settle”. They decided otherwise.

The other brother was forced to will his flat to the Dera.

The remaining owners until last month were still in litigation. Dera is trying other settlement tactics with them.

Last year, I asked a Bombay RSSB Committee member what he thought of the Sawan Sadan Satsangi flats case.

“Dera is wrong there”.

‘Then what did you do about it”.

“I expressed this opinion at a Board meeting.”

“That’s all”.

Silence ensued.
The old Bombay Secretary [Mr. Babani-my insert], a giant of man in business and organization skills and a famous Satsang orator, an RSSB pillar, known to many Westerners who attended Maharaj Ji’s programs in Bombay and saw him on Foreign tours, died last year, a mentally weakened man.

His son said he had Alzheimers but I found that while his recall was not good, some of his remarks were very intelligent.

He (BABANI) was kept away from the ordinary Satsangis because he spoke things about RSSB, the management did not want ordinary Satsangis to hear. He had become critical of the RSSB.

He told me, “Now, Dera is making a fool of me. I will show them”.

I said, “I have left the Institution, you can do the same”.

“No”, he said, “it was easy for you, it is very difficult for me”.

A few weeks before he died, I had visited him and taught him the Happy Buddha Qi Gong movement, which he enjoyed practicing very much.

Some time before he died, a Dera Lawyer come and got an affidavit from him to say that he never announced in Satsang (40 years ago) that the Sawan Sadan flats were for sale. The lawyer then took the piece of paper to the brother living in one of the flats and said, “Look, you have no case”. [my insert-I was informed this was not the only false affidavit that Gurinder extracted from Mr. Babini later on his deathbed].

(my comment - This is corruption and lies and deceit for the sake of money
Babani had announced in satsang that the flats were available for purchase. Now Dera got a false affidavit stating he had not announced this at all.

Is this some spiritual matter? No - it is lies and deceit.

If a disciple carried on this kind of behaviour in his life - he would be called
corrupt. So why is it okay for the guru to do it?

Is it because he is god in human form and therefore everything is okay?

in which case, rape is okay too - release Gurmeet Ram Raheem singh

[Spencer Tepper]

RS Sceptic
Please provide the author and a link to support your claim this is an accurate accounting.

You wrote

"“Withdraw your suit or we will take away your Dera house”.

Please provide documentation of this.

Where has Babani published his own witness to this account?

A law suit... Please a copy of it.

Anything to prove this is not a fabrication, using the name of a well known Satsangi. One who never wrote anything of this in any recorded document or letter.

The entire article of "waking now" has no corroboration.

Sceptic, you are quick to paste this narrative repeatedly, and the story of victimization is laid out in some detail.

But now I'm the Sceptic.

Is it fiction?

That you have not disproven.

Please do your homework.

It's called "independent corroborating evidence."

Lacking that, it's gossip. And if there is no account from legal records, it's just slander.

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Spencer,

Really?
are you that deluded?

As soon as you see any evidence against what you believe,

you want all the T's crossed and the "I"s dotted.

You claim it is all lies.

Yet - everything you believe has no evidence at all.

If RSSB print it in a book, it must therefore be true.

Do you ask RSSB for evidence?

Do you have any evidence that Jaimal was the successor to Swami?

All the evidence points to the truth that he was self appointed.

Swami does not mention his name even once. Does that not concern you
if you truly wanted the facts?

Did you ask RSSB for evidence?
No. They printed it and you took it as gospel truth.

Just as Kirpal claimed that sawan authorised him and transferred the
power through the eyes and his followers believe his account

no evidence - just his statement.

You are no different and all RSSB followers are just brainwashed.

They sit meditating and if by chance they see a little light they take that
as evidence that their guru must be a true master.

Or if their mind creates an image of the guru they claim inner darshan.

So you want me to prove the account is not fiction?

While you go on believing the fiction written in RSSB books.

Wake up.

The real RSSB history has not been revealed.

In the old days, people were naive and information was not so freely
available, but now it's easy to find what really happened.

What makes you think the Babani incident is a fabrication?

It all stacks up.

There is no reason for Babani to lie - he would love it if this was not true.

Sadly it is true and that is why he died a broken man.

How come Guru Gurinder did not help him?

Shower him with grace?

alleviate his problems and take his soul up?

After all, you will rarely find a more deserving candidate.

I challenge you or anyone to do even a fraction of what he did for RSSB.

Obviously Charan valued him to take him on the world tours and to quthorise
his tapes while stopping all others.

If this is the reward you get after a lifetime of service and meditation,
this is proof enough that RSSB is a bullshit path.

Can you give any evidence at all that this account is not true?

NO, I thought so.

It looks like a pretty reliable account to me, as there is no reason to doubt it.

It is well known that Babani was depressed and died a broken man.

it is also known it was due to the flat and what he saw of Gurinder.

The details don't change the fact that this happened.

Everything in RSSB is falling apart

Swami Ji was not a successor to Tulsi - instead he went to Girdhari and after even he did not appoint him - he decided to appoint himself a year after his death.

Jaimal was clearly not a successor to Swami. For many years he was just a
representative, giving initiation on behalf of the agra group gurus.

only 13 years later he set up without any authority.

A far cry from the RSSB lies that he meditated for 13 years

Sawan had many successors. He also had close associations with agra group.

Charan was shocked when he was appointed and make it 100% clear
that he has no inner progress at all.

Well then, how can he be a master if he has no inner progress?

And he made it 100% clear that he was no just being humble by printing
the actual diary entry in his personal diary.

Gurinder is just a businessman who is lining his own pockets using his posistion
which is why his sons are billionaires without earning it.

The Babani incident is the final nail in the coffin.

why anyone would still believe and follow this after all this evidence is beyond me.

inner experiences are also no proof.

all the different Radha swami groups cannot even agree on the regions and their names and their order.

makes a mockery of it all.

so, Spencer,

Please do your homework.
It's called "independent corroborating evidence."

take your own medicine or stay deluded all your life

It's nothing personal to you, it applies to everyone to follows RSSB.

If course everyone chooses their own path

to everyone who examines it clearly RSSB is just another religion

and a mediocre one at that

[Spencer Tepper]

One more cautionary point Sceptic.

If a person can be duped into loving someone who is less than honorable.

They can be duped into hating an innocent person.

You can be a victim under both circumstances.

And if you are the one proselytizing in either way, then you are not a victim, but a perpetrator.

The answer is the same. Discrimination. Where is the corroborating evidence which I may verify for myself? .... Prove this isn't your, or someone else's fiction you promote to support a form of bigotry.

[RS Sceptic]

To all believers and Spencer and Jim and one-initiated

As far as I can see there is absolutely no proof or evidence that swami Ji
was in fact the successor to Tulsi Sahib of Hathras.

Since you, Spencer, seem to require proof and documentation for everything
can I ask you to supply any documentation of evidence at all about Swami Ji's
legitimacy?

I am sure you don't have any at all.
Yet you believe he was authentic.

Indeed, if he isn't then the whole RSSB line falls flat on it's face
because if Swami is not legit, then the others are all fake too.

at least that is the argument you made about Gurmeet Rahim

Swami was self appointed.

The same applies to Jaimal Singh

He too was self appointed.

If those two were not legit then the rest doesn't matter.

After Sawan, I dont believe any wills etc anyway because from then on there was far too much land property and wealth at stake that corruption was almost certain.

After all, if the gurus can do all this to a devoted follower like Babani just to grab his flat, how much more can they do to acquire the dera land and property.

Charan appears to be the only guru who had some moral standards and would not use his position as guru to line his pockets.

He also told the honest truth that he had no spiritual progress.

Gurinder doesn't really care about any moral standards, just so long as his sons become billionaires, he is quite happy.

and what a ploy

And what evidence is there that repeating these five so called holy names
is some kind of profound meditation that will take you to Sach Khand.

Just simple words.

Jot Niranjan
Omkar
Rarankar
Sohang
Sat Naam

there - you don't need initiation anymore

and the secret is out

why all the fuss over five ordinary words that are useless

meditation on those words will not get you anywhere

[Spence Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic:

I appreciate your passion on this subject. However, you are missing two major points.

1. If you wish to prove something to someone else, you need reliable evidence from multiple sources.

That is the criteria you are using to discredit beliefs you don't hold.

What I'm doing is quite different.

I for one am not trying to prove anything to anyone. I only witness to my own experience, and that proof is only for me. It may prove as anecdotal evidence in someone else's quest for truth where their OWN EXPERIENCE must weigh as the final arbitor.

You may not be the best judge of your own experience, but ultimately, you are the only judge for your life. That responsibility cannot actually be given to anyone else. Nor should it rest on heresay.

2. The evidence, Sceptic, which you are presenting isn't your direct experience. What you have offered Sceptic, is third hand, fourth hand evidence at best. It's like trying to argue for the accuracy of the Bible. It's impossible to do it without relying on blind faith at some point. Because this isn't your witness. It isn't even multiple witnesses and verifiable testimony with some hard factual evidence.

You have the opportunity to get evidence to back your claims. I'm not trying to discredit what you are saying. I'm asking you to act according to your own standard which you have set for others.

But you have not been able to prove the narratives you cite are not simply fictional accounts to flatter the angers of their writers.

That doesn't mean they are wrong. It means they have no utility. They are a car with no wheels.
They might be wrong. And if they are fictional, they are slanderous.

Why would you promote slander?

So, rather than think like that I simply ask you to support your claims with evidence, first hand evidence if you have it.

As I have done. But again, my only claim is "works for me".

[RS Sceptic]

dear Spencer

I am not convincing anyone to hate any RSSB guru or the organisation.

I am simply supplying evidence that things are not as they seem.

RSSB and it's gurus are not quite as honourable and squeaky clean as some
people seem to think.

As soon as this incident about Gurmeet Rahim comes to light, the RSSB
believers think "another fake guru bites the dust"

but they think their own guru is invincible because he is the real deal and has
the highest standards.

However this is not the case. Obviously I don't think Gurinder would rape anyone, however he certainly has no problems in getting Babani to will his flat over to RSSB, by using the influence of being the guru.

I mean it's a bit extreme to ask him to will the flat to RSSB before he can see Gurinder Guru. It's preying on his belief.

Babani would have been better off just walking away once he realized it was all about the flat.

[RS Sceptic]

The RSSB teachings say that the guru does not take even a needle (or something like that) from the disciple and that if a guru does take, then he is not a true guru.

so then let me ask

if it was proven to be true about the Babani flat and everything I just pasted above, how many of you believers like spencer, jim, OI and others would then admit that Gurinder is most likely not a perfect master.

Or would you then find some excuse like
It was Babani's fate
or
he is working out Babani's karma because he was such a devoted disciple
the master wants to clear all his karma through the flat.

after all those are the kind of stories that RSSB is full of.

[Spence Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic:

You wrote;
"if it was proven to be true about the Babani flat and everything I just pasted above, how many of you believers like spencer, jim, OI and others would then admit that Gurinder is most likely not a perfect master.

Or would you then find some excuse like
It was Babani's fate"

Sceptic, I think the parallel question must be asked. If you fail to provide actual proof, verifiable proof, will you be able to let go of your need to acuse and slander?

I for one am most happy to review any real evidence you have, and to carefully tease out fact from fiction.

So why not put accusation aside for the time being?

Do your homework. If this is important to you, and you wish it to be important to us, do the investigative work.

Otherwise it remains in the realm of rumor, and promoting that rumor you place yourself in the role of slanderer. Even the narrative is not slander. It's just a story. But it becomes slander when someone promotes it as truth.

Use the same standard for Truth that you are applying to Sant Mat. Apply it to yourself and this narrative first and foremost.

If we can agree to the terms of truth, then we are both bound by its outcomes.

[Jim Sutherland]

To RS Skeptic, since you keep mentioning my name with others, you must be baiting a response. This certainly would not be our first Rodeo together, as I have known you as Willams, ZAKK, Frank, a Homeless Bum living under a bridge, a Coin Collector and Stock Broker, and god only knows the other pseudo Avatars you have used to try and lead innocent seekers, as well as seasoned Satsangis off the Path of Sant Mat.

You can't ever take away what I have, because you never had it to begin with. You are obviously still bound to the Wheel of 84 , which Gurinder Singh says even initiated Exers like you who don't meditate and have left the Path, can return to, in lower species than the Gift of the human body you now have.

For me, it makes no difference at all, whether Gurinder Singh is a PLM, or who was, or is appointed to be PLMs.

But I do know, that Christ lives in me, the Hope of Glory, and is the same Christ that lived in the Master Jesus, and every other Living Master of each time in ever era since the Dawn of Creation.

My Salvation was secure, before I ever heard of Sant Mat, or Radhasoami.

You should be so fortunate. You might sleep better at night, if you quit harassing members of the Marked Elect and their Masters.

In case you forgot how you became a human, and are so anxious to Transmigrate back to your roots, here is a reminder of your options.

THE WHEEL OF 84

The Journey of the SoulThe Vedas explain that the soul, known as the atma, may inhabit any of 8,400,000 general species of material bodies. The physical forms vary in complexity, beginning with the primitive microbes and amoebas, continuing on through the aquatic, plant, insect, reptile, bird, and animal species, and culminating in human beings and demigods.

In consequence of its own desires to enjoy matter, the atma continually journeys through these various bodies, on an endless voyage of births and deaths. The action of the mind is the prime force compelling the living entity to transmigrate from one body to another. The Gita explains, "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state of being he will attain without fail."

Our minds are constantly recording all of our thoughts and desires, and the totality of these memories floods our consciousness in the last moments of life. The nature of our thoughts at this critical juncture propels us into the appropriate physical body.

Thus the body we now occupy is an accurate physical projection of our state of mind at the time of our last death.The Bhagavad-gita explains, "The living entity, thus taking another gross body, obtains a certain type of eye, ear, tongue, nose, and sense of touch, which are grouped around the mind. He thus enjoys a particular set of sense objects."

According to the Vedas, a soul in a form lower than human automatically evolves to the next-higher species, ultimately arriving at the human form. But because the human being possesses freedom to choose between matter and spirit, there is a chance that the soul will descend again into the lower species.

The laws of karma are so arranged that if a human lives and dies with the animalistic mentality of a creature such as a dog, then in the next life he will be able to fulfill his doglike desires through the senses and organs of a dog. This is certainly an unfortunate occurrence, but such a fate is a definate possibility for a person immersed in ignorance. The Gita declares, "When he dies in the mode of ignorance, he takes birth in the animal kingdom."So the soul in the body of an animal may once have inhabited a human form and vice versa.

Although a soul may successively occupy plant, animal, and human bodies, its intrinsic nature remains the same. Because the soul is pure spiritual energy, it cannot be altered in any way by matter. Bhagavad-gita explains that the soul is "immutable and unchangeable." It is only the bodily covering, with its particular combination of mind and senses, that temporarily restricts or releases the conscious energy of the soul.

We have been blessed to have been given the Gift of a Human body, this incarnation!" Use it, or loose it, as an old saying goes!"

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Spencer,

you are unable to answer the question.

I am not slandering anyone. I am simply pasting information freely available on the net.

I actually do not know if it is true and I don't care.

The fact that it is there means it is quite possibly true.

I have no desire or need to slander anyone.

I really don't care and am indifferent to the truth of it.

It does not affect me.

I do not know if anyone can provide real proof.

If you can prove or disprove it, go ahead.

The nephew could state his case, but you could accuse him of lying.

The flat owners could even win a case against RSSB
and you would say it is a mis-carriage of justice.

Gurmeet Rahim has been convicted and sentenced to 20 years prison.
His disciples will swear he has been framed by the drugs mafia.

It cannot even be proven that he is guilty
just because he has been convicted is not proof of his guilt.

it only means he has been found guilty. could be a mistake.
plenty of mistakes are made in the legal syste every day.

innocent people are behind bars and guilty people are set free.

So I could not possibly and nor could anyone else prove the events of
the sawan sadan flats and Babani.

People will believe what they want despite all the evidence.

I just asked that if you knew it was true, would that of, and in itself
be proof that gurinder is not what be claims to be?

I am just asking what your position would then be.

And if this incident happened to you personally - then what would your view be?

Most likely RSSB had it written in the contracts that they can
buy back at any time and pay the original price. So legally they might be right.

its just that the people who bought would not think this would happen
even if it is written.

I am just arguing the moral position here.

[Spence Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic.

If you are not going to provide any corroborative testimony or evidence, why bring up a narrative that depicts wrong doing on someone's part? And which names them as the instigator of that wrong doing?

From a moral perspective, I don't think that is right.

I realize this is what Donald Trump does. But while he gets a lot of air time, it's wrong.

Never a good idea to slander someone's name.

And then to claim that doesn't matter?

It does matter, RS Sceptic.

The Truth does matter, and it demands verification. Testability.

If you put out a document that is slanderous you become responsible for spreading rumors at least, and for verification of those claims at best.

You're an adult? Well, that will come in time.

To then say "Well I don't know if it's true or not..." Is disingenuous. Don't hide behind someone else's skirt. When you grow up your colleagues will not tolerate it. You will need to stand upon your word.

You wouldn't share this narrative unless you wanted others to consider that it might be true. And because it happens to support your beliefs, so far unproven.

But anything might be true, until evidence proves one way or the other.

Gurindar COULD be God in human form, for all you know.

We don't mention it because it can't be proven, and we don't promote blind faith.

And you shouldn't pass along rumors and slander if you don't promote hate.

Try to keep up.

[One Initiated]

boy o boy, RS Sceptic...

you appears to be on a venting spree...

You believe what you believe. But why to fill your heart with so much hatred ?
Considering you think you have moved on and do not accept or believe RSSB as the True Path, why so much hatred ? You can sit back and enjoy life without RSSB and still be happy, can't you ?
The anger and the hatred disrupts the functioning of the mind and provokes amygdala to over burden which invites unimaginable physical troubles in the longer run.

So brother, would you first like to tell me how come you are so much into RSSB ?
Were you once the follower and now hates it after reading the Babani's text online ?

"Everything in RSSB is falling apart"
Really ?
He he ... it was indeed funny. Honestly I laughed after reading this.
When did it start to happen ? 😀

You want to hear a truth instead ?
Everything in the world is falling apart and RSSB is going to play a major role in saving millions of the human lives. In the words of those who have seen it happening: "It's going to be really dirty."
I invite you to please bookmark this page and come back after a few decades if you'd be alive and you'd realize the intensity of these conversations.

"Gurinder is most likely not a perfect master"
Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj is THE Perfect Master and I have SEEN that with my real eyes in my full consciousness by HIS Ultra Grace.
(I can not tell you beyond that. I didn't want to repeat that because it's so nostalgic even for me, it must be for readers as well, but for the sake doing it again).

I am a living person telling you this first hand, do you have the audacity to accept this fact ?
Or you are also too much in anger, hatred and negativity like many others who without even knowing what's going on in my life, my physical body and my spiritual practice, find themselves in a full judgmental position to call my own personal fully conscious experiences as delusions ? The big question to ask: who is deluded ?

And if you want more appropriate living accounts go and read the stuffs on this very Brian's website from the authors like 777, Augustine & Jim etc. Or you would have amazing reason to call them lies ?

You know it's very difficult. It's so simple and easy to agree on the events and incidents of the people who have already left this plane... because there is no one to argue and just modify the facts the way you want and present it and perceive it the way you want, super easy.

Also more importantly, it's so very easy to accept the Saints who have left this plane and the whole world in some form or other accept the foregone saints as Saints and worship them whole heartedly. However, it's quite not easy to accept the Living Saint as the Supreme Lord or even to consider them Saint. And so rightly the case was when those Saints were alive, just read on every single Saint of the history and you will find in literally every single case there were uncountable beings who disagreed to the fact and disgraced them, called them names, abused them and even tortured them physically.

I have not seen anyone else ever on this forum to question the authenticity of Soami Ji Maharaj and HIS relation with Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj.

So, based on your questions, really every Saint that you've ever read of or heard of, doesn't hold any proof for you, Sceptic.

Do you at all believe if there was ever a True Saint exist ?
Like from Jesus, Mohammad, Kabir, Nanak, Ravidas, Sarmad, Rumi, Shams - anyone else ?

If you do believe that even a single one of them was ever a True Living Master then what is your basis to agree on that fact ?
Even if someone tells their real experience, for you it's just their delusion.

So, it really means you do not believe that there ever existed any True Master in the whole universe, precisely, there is not any such thing like a True Master and there is nothing like Spirituality.

And to me, I think the above notion itself is not that absurd. Because really what proof can anyone give to any other being about their experiences ? Talks are talks, but if you have that spark inside you, you might start believing some things which leads you to walk further.

So, if you are still wanting to proceed on your Spiritual Journey why don't you start meditating with or without the Master... get yourself first hand experiences and resume the discussion yet again with everyone here ? Even if you are not, I am sure every single one would be more than happy to hear about your very own personal experiences.

God Bless You.

~OI

[777]

-
-

Hi All

Of course this is a marvellous occasion
for EXERS to
re start all discussions from the past
and try to judge

You can spend time for ever
All founders of any Truth method in history
had fake followers

This Path is very easy
Does it work
and do you hear the hyper sweet Anahabad Shabd ?

Are the real 5 words ( not the above ) reverberating in You

Is your Master with you at all moments ?
Did you realize you are not at all the body and lost fear to lose it ?

If not so far . . . are perhaps serendipities°° happening in your life

If not that, is there in you still some clear Ego problems

( Pls compare with Nanak's
'I'm the lowliest of the Lowly please )

I ask this not from followers or ex followers from other RS groups
and there are so many here.

And the real RSSB Exers :
GO IN, and you can ask about the above
ask Seth Shiv Dayal , Ask Nanak , Ask Buddha, Jesus
Yes You Can

Make yourself great again

Please remember ; Only LOVE does it
(remember Charan s beauty and what you felt

Yes One Initiated
Why would God not keep his Beas place clean and protect His Lovers against theworld

Even here in France I still feel the peace of that place
Yes : we have an effective efficient Guru
exactly what God needs :-)

°° explained in many comments

777

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Spencer,
Let me repeat. I have no interest in slandering anyone.
I am a sceptic. That means I don’t believe the propaganda that anyone puts out to get followers.

So just because an RSSB book has something written in it - it does not mean it is true.

You ask me to provide testimony about the Babani story.
I am asking you to prove it is not true.

I have not slandered anyone. I have pasted documents that are freely available on the net and commented on it in the context of what has happened to this Gurmeet guru guy.

It is honest, not disingenuous to say I don’t know if it is true.

Of course I don’t know as I was not there.

You also don’t know if it is true as you was not there.

So we don’t know – but we have the record of someone who says it is true.

Why do you believe all the words you read in RSSB books?
They could be lies and untrue. How do you know?

Dear One-initiated,
You say that Gurinder Singh is THE Perfect Master based upon your inner experience.

What if some of Gurmeet Rahim’s disciples have inner visions of him?
Does that make him a perfect master also?
That disciple, like you, might say he knows he is a perfect master.

May I ask you how in your opinion the inner experience proves that gurinder is a perfect master?

If a high ranking disciple such as Babani who has been a firm believer all his life and had dedicated his whole life to RSSB, can end up depressed and in this state, surely that says a lot about RSSB.

How come Gurinder did not shower him with grace?
After all Babani did come voluntarily to see him.

[Jen]

Hi guys,

R S Sceptic is not "full of hatred". He's putting forward facts about the sometimes underhand practices used by RS Beas . The so called "smuggling" into the Dera under Charan's rule also comes to mind.

777 says: "Why would God not keep his Beas place clean and protect His Lovers against the world"

These times certainly do seem quite apocalyptic and I see a common thread amongst the satsangis posting here of feeling so self-entitled and protected with their belief in God and the Sant Mat gurus and it really smacks so much more of ego, even though they preach about "love".

[Jack]

.......

The so called "smuggling" into the Dera under Charan's rule also comes to mind.........
For a thousand of thousand of times these debates are the same for 20 and more years......and for you Mike Williams aka rs sceptic...i cannot believe you blow into same horn all over and over over over...

[Jim Sutherland]

To OSHO and RS Skeptic: both you guys argue that all inner experiences are either desires of the mind, or hallucinations, or Chandian imaginary delusions.

From what I have read of your past comments, regarding inner experiences, Astral Projections, Near Death experiences, etc. neither of you, nor Brian Hines seem to believe that we even have souls, much less, Astral or Causal bodies. David Lane ( at least the Agnostic Who doesn't Know Lane , that has retired) equally falls in to that same skeptical catagory, unless he has changed his mind regarding most of his Articles on the Internet.

I don't understand why there still ANY skeptics still exist, considering the available millions of testimonoies on the Internet of all the people reporting their experiences.

It isn't only a Spiritual philosophy, it is Metaphysical.

Here is yet, another recent experince I had a couple of years ago. ( Non-Spiritual)

I had a Colonoschaphy procedure, and was out of body, WATHCHING the Doctor and Anesthesiologist insert the camera wand and instruments up the bare Butt of my physical body while laying on a table in a fetal position.

I Actually felt the probe inside me, and felt the sharp pain when a couple of Palups were removed from my colon.

I was about 30 feet away, watching the entire procedure, and even saw both men looking at me, and most likely , they saw my Astral Form, hovering , but didn't know it was me.

I don't remember projecting out, or back in, but the entire procedure was as if I was the 4th person in the room watching the entire procedure in 3D Color. I even watched the Doctor wash the Wand and Probe off in a Stainless Steel sink after finishing the procedure.

[Spencer Tepper]

RS Sceptic
You wrote
"Why do you believe all the words you read in RSSB books?"

Because unlike you I verified them for myself.

So please do your homework Sceptic and verify, corroborate, otherwise what you are doing is just gossip and slander.

[RS Sceptic]

I have copied and pasted information freely available on the net

I have stated that it is likely to be true otherwise why would it be written.

I have stated I do not know for sure if it is true.

And you believers go around shouting "slander, slander"

I have pasted other information from david lane and other researchers who say their research leads them to the possibility that Swami Ji was not an authentic successor to Tulsi Sahib.

Tulsi saheb was the family guru and he used to visit panni galli frequently.

Swami Ji was not his appointed successor - it was Girdhari. This is well documented.

Swami was close to Girdhari and respected him like a guru, which explains why he did not start his own mission until after he died.

Girdhari did not appoint Swami either. So Swami started on his own and does not mention his own guru for a very good reason - because he was not the appointed successor.

Which guru could he mention. Neither Tulsi nor Girdhari appointed him.

All you guys who claim to be able to ask the guru any questions and get the answers, by going inside. Why don't get get the correct information about this.

And Spencer said about evidence regarding Babani, well go inside and ask directly from Charan.

777, you said it is easy to ask Shiv Dayal (Swami), well then go ahead and tell us what he says. And ask Charan and Gurinder about Sawan Sadan flats while you are there.

Jen is right. I don't have any hatred. I am just asking some questions and the believers don't like it that they don't have answers.

If RSSB was innocent in the Babani incident then why don't they come out and clarify exactly what happened, and put the rumours to bed.

Instead they always say "no personal questions please" at Q&A

Why?

What is wrong with personal questions? If everything is above board, what is the issue in asking a personal question.

In the past, gurus could say anything and nobody would ever know

with the advert of the internet, the cat soon comes out of the bag and causes havoc.

[Spencer Tepper]

RS Sceptic

You wrote
"I have copied and pasted information freely available on the net"

You copied and pasted unverified accusations that name an individual as the culprit and another as the victim.

You have chosen to believe that narrative. Without doing your own investigation. That's blind hate.

You have not verified any of it.

Publishing slanderous remarks, not as the basis to initiate real investigation, but as de facto truth is no different than blind faith.

Blind hate is not so differant than blind faith. Both are lazy and harmful.

[Osho Robbins]

RS Sceptic,
It’s fine being a sceptic, but why covert others?
Are you on a commission from the God of Scepticism?
Just sharing information and letting others do what they want with it is okay, but let the believers make up their own minds.

When someone has FAITH – that faith is based on something.
It can be based on books, personal accounts of others or on one’s own personal experience.

From these, the person makes a conclusion which becomes the basis of his faith.

For example I might know someone who has never told me a lie, so on that basis I will gain TRUST in that person.

What that really means is that I have a firm belief that the person will not lie to me.

It may or may not be true – but it appears to be true to me based on my experience of that person.

If something changes – for example I catch the person telling me a lie – I will revise my conclusion and my trust in that person will disappear.

Some of the people who had faith in Gurmeet Rahim will now lose that faith based on the new evidence.

Others will continue to believe in him and say the evidence against him is fabricated and that he could not possibly rape anyone.

People will believe what they want to believe.

Usually it takes something radical to change a firm belief.

For example if YOU was the rape victim, that would be pretty radical, and your belief would change instantly.

Even then, you could JUSTIFY and find a way to make it fit so that your belief remains.

Humans are strange characters.

When you, RS Sceptic read an account like the Kishen Babani controversy, you will take it to be true. After all, why would it not be true?

When a believer hears the story, something different happens.

His faith is on the line. Immediately he suspects foul play. In his mind, it cannot be true. It is impossible. Or if it IS true, then there is MORE to the story that justifies the action that GSD and Charan took.

After all, they KNOW (believe) that Gurinder and Charan Singh are perfect masters and cannot do anything “Wrong”.

If they did take the flats, there must have been a good reason – it was JUSTIFIED.

So let’s assume, just for a moment, that the story as reported is accurate. So what? The Dera was just protecting its’ property and cannot possibly allow just anyone to reside in the Dera as that would cause havoc.

This seems perfectly reasonable.

Perhaps not to Babani, but then perhaps something happened to Babani and he lost his faith in Sant Mat or his karmas got in the way.

Maybe this was the Master’s way of clearing up his karma so he does not return to this world.

The person who believes will continue to believe.

And what is wrong with that anyway?

Alice (in wonderland) says she believes in ten impossible things before breakfast. And that is just before breakfast, obviously it will be hundreds by the end of the day.

We are all like Alice. True or not true doesn’t matter.

If it APPEARS to be true to ME – then as far as I am concerned it IS true.

That is just how our mind works.

Why try to convince anyone of anything?

RS Sceptic, Why try to convince others and make them into sceptics? Are you lonely? Do you need a world full of sceptics?

Enjoy your own scepticism and let others enjoy their beliefs.

Variety makes an interesting world.

There are no bonus points for converting others to your own view of life.

And your own view – is just that – your VIEW – not the truth.

Sure, you are CONVINCED it is true – but so what? That does not make it true. It just makes it your conviction.

[Osho Robbins]

jim wrote:

"I don't understand why there still ANY skeptics still exist, considering the available millions of testimonoies on the Internet of all the people reporting their experiences.
It isn't only a Spiritual philosophy, it is Metaphysical."

See my comment to RS Sceptic.

There will always be believers and sceptics.

I don't really consider myself a sceptic.

I am simply saying that an inner experience is not objective proof.

It is personal proof - sufficient for the individual if he chooses to accept it.

[777]

"""" May I ask you how in your opinion the inner experience proves that Gurinder is a perfect master? """"

THAT is the beauty of this system : You cannot give proof
You cannot lay your finger on Love

But the disciple concerned , apart from hearing the accumulated Sounds experiences also within and without meditations, fascinating
levels of sweet pleasure we can only compare with endless orgasmes but only above our eyes
Roaring turbulences of Love and S/He knows for so sure that SHe is Herself the Shabd undestructive, invulnerable, giant Bliss which ever grows

You are really The Master Himself at such moments - Yes everything is cyclic
but when You are out of it the " rememberence " , a very insufficient word , stays with you
Very well to compare with your best worldly crush of first love
you are filled 24/7 , . . almost cannot eat cannot sleep
cannot explain ( like me here )
and imaging
sitting in the Cinema f.i. . . the 5 words enhances all those feels also at will at any moment
One can perfectly understand that some martyrs didn't bother at all what happened around and with their bodies

You might perhaps have an idea where, -apart from radiant forms of many satgurus within
it(s difficult to spread around that surity, you ask for

Next there are the serendipities also ever growing in impossibility and frequency as if God with His Giant humour changes the whole creation for just one disciple
And He is right, . . . He is enjoying Him/Herself as much as possible
mixed with endless prudence , always caring for You, no molecule is where it not should be

And all I write here is just the beginning
We see how Compassion is the root of this all
It's by Empathy without second thoughts that we were attracted to this Path

I can continue for days , lifes even trying to tell the surity
and yes ; It's always subjective

If it's given to read between the words , you might become aware

Jap Ji gives a perfect description of all this
We can have all that . . and you don't need to be a perfect person
I'm not, . . never was . . . ; read my comments

remember
Why there are so many fake gurus ?
Because there are so many fake seekers

So try to find out what you really want

Dr. Phil :
Do You Want to be right or You want to be HAPPY

WOW

and I'm 80 , so much to come

777

-

ps
You don't know what karmas Babani yet had - Now He is happy

[One Initiated]

Sceptic,

Please read the below comment with a calmer state of mind, then only you'd be able to comprehend it correctly and be able to respond appropriately.

It's visible that you have a highly entangled mesh of non co-related points in your head.
You really have no point - you are just blatantly mentioning one thing or the other over and over again posing varying names.

Also, you didn't answer me whether you think there is / was any True Master ever existed on earth ? If yes, what proof you have for them to be considered as True Master.

If you'd think that Soami Ji Maharaj were not the True Master all your lateral questions / doubts automatically invalidated... because you can simply consider them as a normal worldly proceedings.

For example, for me this information of conviction of gurmeet singh is almost insignificant, it's just same as for any other criminal once disguised as anyone else in the society, since for me mastana balochistani was never a true master.

I don't think the way you are trying to put up the things making any sense. It's all looking like a non-sensical jargon which has been over stretched by you over and over again.

Are you understanding the point I am try to make ?

[777]

-
-
So nice
At the end we all agree,
even Osho
Of course : there is no other universe than your Own !

So nice

Just change it in Heaven

777

-

[One Initiated]

Wow, Osho & 777,

I would say these both were the amazing comments. thanks to both of your for sharing your views.

So Sceptic,
I am sure all your questions from logical perspective must end with Osho's comment.

and if the spiritual perspective is concerned, there could not be a better comment than what 777 has posted.

[One Initiated]

To Rakesh,

I googled but right now I could not find the book/text available from Agra related to the biography of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj, but I am sure I read it online somewhere quite a while ago. I will keep looking for that or will search my own archives and upload it somewhere if I will find that.

Nevertheless I found this book written by Sant Kripal Singh - and I have read this one as well - this is also very close to the the biography of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj, it contains various phases of HIS Life which also includes the meetings of Jaimal Singh Ji and Soami Ji, Jaimal Ji's time spent in HIS Job and the childhood struggle of finding the True Master - overall it's a very interesting read for the ones who are searching it.

here is the link: http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/pdf/Baba%20Jaimal%20Singh%20-%20Kirpal%20Singh.pdf

I will keep you posted once I have update on the other book I was mentioning.

Love to you.

[Jim Sutherland]

To OSHO: Credibility is also an indicator of the truth of either subjective or objective inner experiences. Frauds charging money or selling books might hype or fabricate their experiences, but I have never tried to sell my self or experiences to Spiritual Seekers.

I like what you posted. No poison. Sugar coated Oneness is better than Spiritual skepticism.

I don't lie about my experiences I decide to share. I may misunderstand how they manifest, and am not able to adequately explain them, but I don't lie and fabricate fictional stories about such things.

I really don't have my dog in the race, so to speak.

I don't really care who believes or disbelieves that the Moon completely covered the Sun blocking its light, a week ago from one end of the Western U.S. thru the Eastern U.S.

But it did. That proof was videoed for all skeptics to see.

Maybe that proves Spirituality is becoming dark in the West.

Maybe Technology will eventually come out with a Go-Pro 3rd Eye Recorder that we can strap on our foreheads during meditation and dreaming, and record our inner experiences!

If I would have had one during my Colonoschophy Procedure, and videoed it, or vidioed my hoovering Astral body looking at us from 30 feet away, even R.S. Skeptic would become a Believer. 😇

When R.S. Skeptic used to post all of his past Guru and initiations in Lane's forum a dozen years or so ago, as ZAKK, ....he used to be quite entertaining and had quite a following.

But unlike me, who has mellowed with old age, ZAKK seems to be getting meaner and more cantankerous, especially against RSSB.

He used to single out Rhuhani Kirpalis more, but there doesn't seem to be many Kirpalis here in Brian's Church, so he keeps RSSB and Babaji in his Cross Hairs.

[Juan]

One more article on Babas:

https://matheikal.blogspot.com.es/2017/08/babas-and-their-babes.html

[Spencer Tepper]

Dear Osho

You wrote

"I am simply saying that an inner experience is not objective proof.

It is personal proof - sufficient for the individual if he chooses to accept it."

On this we both agree.

Since we all live a personal life, and our own state of well being is the only home we will ever live in, and all things we learn passes through and into this home, naturally it is worth considering seriously. In that home there are miracles and wonder, if we keep it clean, and a place always there for a Guest.

Miracles, not in the supernatural sense, but in the sense of magnificent wonder, scope and beauty.

Joy makes us believers.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen

You wrote
"These times certainly do seem quite apocalyptic and I see a common thread amongst the satsangis posting here of feeling so self-entitled and protected with their belief in God and the Sant Mat gurus and it really smacks so much more of ego, even though they preach about "love".'

I think it takes a lot of nerve to publish unverified accusations and claim they are' fact '. It' s not the golden rule, Jen.

Pasting accusations and claiming no responsibility for verification is indulging in slander. That is slander. Nothing wrong with personally investigating and bringing forth first hand witness or documentation from reliable sources, and corroboration from multiple verifiable sources.

But who here seems interested in that?

The Babani narrative is fiction until proven otherwise. Because people are innocent until proven guilty. That's our ethic.

[Jen]

Wow, interesting comments. Confusing but I must say entertaining!

777 in his rambling mystical style: "You are really The Master Himself at such moments"
...

"as if God with His Giant humour changes the whole creation for just one disciple"
...

"Of course : there is no other universe than your Own !"
...

Must be great fun enjoying all this inner bliss but there is a maybe. Maybe its some kind of hallucination that strong beliefs can influence the brain to manifest.

Spencer says: "Miracles, not in the supernatural sense, but in the sense of magnificent wonder, scope and beauty.

Joy makes us believers."

Seems like the law of attraction ... the ability to attract into our lives whatever we are focusing on ... but is it real?

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Osho Robbins,
Thank you for your posting.
If only I was on a commission
Actually I am not trying to convert anyone although I can see how it might appear that way.
I just don’t get it how people are so gullible. They cannot see how corrupt and greedy RSSB has become.

In my opinion, Babani was a sincere satsangi and also very well versed in the teachings, and extremely devoted.

It would have taken something really big to shake his faith, otherwise he was the type of follower who would never go against RSSB.

I understand what you are saying about the reason for faith. However, it’s not the truth. RSSB tells it’s followers to get inner experience and not rely on faith, but I think most of the followers only have faith.

Dear One Initiated,
No I don’t believe there is any such thing as a perfect master. There are people right now who claim to be Jesus, but it doesn’t mean it is true.

There are lots of deluded people around who make great claims.

Mastana was considered a very devoted disciple of sawan in sawan’s time. Don’t think you can just write him off as a fake.

[One Initiated]

Dear Sceptic,

Sure, Mastana and Kripal Singh must have been on quite spiritually advanced states.

I never said Mastana or Kripal Singh were fake, I said The Great Master did not authorise them to be the master and that's my belief but some advanced disciples have seen this that they were not authorised. You might have a different opinion.

However, these terms Sadhu, Sant and Sant Satguru have different meanings.
You can go through Dr. John Davidson's treasury of mystic terms for better and deeper explanations.

[Dungeness]

Must be great fun enjoying all this inner bliss but there is a maybe. Maybe its some kind of hallucination that strong beliefs can influence the brain to manifest.

My mystical understanding is very limited... ok, near non-existent. But wading in anyway, I've read that nothing external is real. It's illusion, Mithra -- a word from the Vedic tradition. Only your experience of the external is authentic. (corrections from mystics welcome!)

So your enjoyment of the ice cream cone is what's real; the cone itself isn't. You may see it, touch it, savor it. A thousand people may tell you the cone is real. But like an intoxicating dream, when you've awakened to a higher reality, the cone is gone, the dream companions are gone too. All that's left is your experience and memory of something that never was.

So, if you derive bliss from a transcendent experience, what's the harm? As long as you don't disturb the peace, dupe innocents, support Trump, and still dutifully pay taxes, it's benign. You may even save yourself from Prozac, start eschewing the latest garbage TV, laugh more... .

By the way a true mystic is the first say, "Sure, it could be a hallucination. But it makes me happy 24x7. Try it if you like and, if it doesn't work for you, drop it like glass from the hand. Look for your own bliss".

[Jen]

Here we are commenting on a thread about a guru who was found guilty of rape which resulted in his followers rampaging and attacking and killing people and what are the satsangis discussing? How wonderful and blissful life is, especially when being so enlightened and feeling so very special because they have been initiated by a supreme guru. So just have fun ... be happy. Happy and blissful here in La La Land ...

[vinny]

Kindly see the work of Baba Faqir Chand , who taught surat shabda yoga or consciously controlled near death experience. When David Lane met Baba Faqir Chand , he honestly replied the miracles attributed to me by disciples are due to purity of mind of disciple. My radiant form manifests to devotees due to their purity of mind. David Lane has termed it " Chandian Effect "

[vinny]

Kindly see the books authored by Baba Faqir Chand , freely available on Manvta Mandir Hoshiarpur website.He died in Pittsburgh , Pennsylvania. He candidly explained when mind is withdrawn from sense objects , the energy of mind manifests as divine light or divine effulgence. This is called Noor / Divine light / Heavenly light by various mystics. Jesus said " if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."?

Baba Faqir Chand has said " knowledge is true guru / your mind is the true guru " Gurudom is exploiting the gullible people and taking advantage from their seeking.

[Spence Tepper]

Dear Dungeness:

You wrote:

'So, if you derive bliss from a transcendent experience, what's the harm? As long as you don't disturb the peace, dupe innocents, support Trump, and still dutifully pay taxes, it's benign. You may even save yourself from Prozac, start eschewing the latest garbage TV, laugh more... .

By the way a true mystic is the first say, "Sure, it could be a hallucination. But it makes me happy 24x7. Try it if you like and, if it doesn't work for you, drop it like glass from the hand. Look for your own bliss".'

Dungeness, I Agree 100%. Our internal state of well being is the only state we have ever lived in, the only home we will ever know. The care of that place is our first priority. And no one else but us carries the responsibility to keep that place clean and wonderfully happy.

And secondly, look around you. All the great things of our civilization, technology, human rights, medicine, society itself, entertainment, literature, all of it comes out of human conception, and imagination..the ability to see and model in one's own mind; the ability to move from emotion to inspiration, or vice versa; from a moment's inspiration to a wonderful act of creation that benefits and brings joy to so many others; all that comes from within and nowhere else. That human mind, inside, internal imaging, design, calculation, and mental creation, has re-made our world and given us every wonderful thing of human thought and human achievement. One thing is certain. No great accomplishment has ever taken place without the ability to have a very clear vision, a picture, within, of the goal. "just imagination" ....That may be the only thing of value human beings have.

What hard evidence there is, from research from Harvard, Yale, and others, over several decades, about spiritual practices of meditation proves that the long term effects of Meditation, specifically meditation focused on image or word, or repetition, especially with love and devotion, and at least singular focus, yields many, many significant health benefits.

From increasing brain density and mass (normally the brain thins over time), to changing our DNA, to healing our anxieties, these practices as a group, that also bring just joy and bliss, if only a little effort is applied each day, are extremely healthy. And new research shows meditation helps eliminate distracting mental thoughts, essentially allowing the mind to perceive the senses, and reality, more directly.

Inner joy is reflected in physical and mental well being through the short term and more so the long term practice of meditation.

So if, in love with my Master, I can raise the bar on myself and do more for those around me, if my wealth is within and so can never be threatened by anyone, or anything, I am free to risk everything to help others also.

There is great nobility, great potential in devotion to the right thing.

And just because there are false copies, they are just photocopies. Where you find so many false copies, know that an original must be there.

To see the false gurus, is inspiring. Because for every thousand photocopies, flawed versions, mis-representations, the real is there. The original must be there waiting to be found.

And if one finds nothing worthy of devotion, no complete love, nothing so great that in that love all else, all other worldly worries evaporates, then use your imagination. Create it. Set the goal.

That imagination could be "you" the real you, subconscious you, showing you something divine within yourself.

And if it really is spiritual it must be within you. Can't be anywhere else.

So then this disappointment in others makes little sense. The Path was always about finding that perfection within you, and if it takes the form of someone you know and love dearly, great.

But it's still you. And that is the point and the miracle. You own that. It owns you. The source of all that joy is within you, even if a teacher helps you find it, like most teachers.

And then, such things to discover there!

[RS Sceptic]

I fail to see the importance of being "authorised" of being the successor.

What difference does it make?

If an advanced disciple like Kirpal or Mastata (assuming of course that they were advanced - which is by no means certain), has reached Sach khand, what is the need for being the official successor?

And why did Swami Ji have 6+ successors (all official except Jaimal)

What does it mean to be an officially appointed successor

do they have special powers?

[One Initiated]

You correctly quoted for the first time, Sceptic.
It's your failure and the above one was the absurdest comment.

Yes, you are FAILED big time not only in understanding the meaning of a simple english word, but also in recognising the beautiful comments above provided by the living persons and their first hand experiences.

Please go through the book about biography of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj (which I provided the link in earlier comment).

When you are saying 6+ successors of Soami Ji Maharaj as official, it means, you know the meaning of official successor and there you are falsely invalidating Jaimal Singh Ji (Without reading the text and books). On the other hand, you are supporting whole heartedly Mastana Ji and asking what does authorise mean. It's really funny and representation of your childish and in-genuineness. It's clear you are neither serious nor sincere in your questions.

I think the answers you've already received from multiple legitimate sources are way much much more than the worth what your questions hold.

Especially because you are not appearing like a genuine seeker to the answers of these questions rather your stand is more like a participant of a debate. And here no one else is debating except you. Most people are here trying to help each other.
Whereas, it's appearing that you are not at all serious about your own questions, had you been more serious and sincere you would have first read the books and the comments above before posting more absurd comments like the above.

God bless you & may you find your debating partner soon and I hope not on this forum.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi RS Sceptic
You wrote
"I fail to see the importance of being "authorised" of being the successor.

What difference does it make?"

It should mean something. But as with the holy Bible and so many other legal and historical documents, they can be doctored, or re - written, buried or burned so that we only get a piece of the picture at best.

Which means they mean nothing.

Your sentiment, your judgment, your experience means everything.

Everyone can tell you of the great food at a week known restaurant that had five stars. But if it makes you sick, that's not even one star. You don't need to prove that to anyone. For you, it was terrible... And the reverse can happen. A crummy cheap Mexican place of no account, humble cook, limited menu. But their cheese enchiladas are divine.

You can brag about that place to your friends, but when it becomes a chain you can blame yourself if the food doesn't quite have that secret and sublime quality.

[Jen]

777 says: "And all I write here is just the beginning
We see how Compassion is the root of this all
It's by Empathy without second thoughts that we were attracted to this Path"

Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

How many of you actually feel the pain and suffering of the world. Why is it okay to just sit and meditate and find peace and joy in one's own inner world and then continually talk about it even though its not actually helping others. It seems like a selfish ego to me. I'm very far from perfect and I know that but at least I do care about the suffering of others.

[RS Sceptic]

Dear One initiated,

this is my source for my comments about Jaimal singh

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/page1.html

What it says is

There is no evidence of Swami giving jaimal permission to teach in the punjab.

(If you have evidence that Jaimal WAS given permission, please supply it.)

There is no evidence that Swami Jo even knew who Jaimal was

(If you have evidence, please supply it)

Swami Ji never wrote jaimal any letters. Why not?

Since you are so concerned about evidence, then tell me what evidence you have.

Is it just the fact that the RSSB books have it written there

you choose to believe the RSSB books than other evidence?

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen

You wrote
"How many of you actually feel the pain and suffering of the world. Why is it okay to just sit and meditate and find peace and joy in one's own inner world and then continually talk about it even though its not actually helping others. It seems like a selfish ego to me. I'm very far from perfect and I know that but at least I do care about the suffering of others."

Very interesting thinking.

If I am happy naturally I want to share. Why not? It would be an obscenity not to.

I have a key to a bakery the runs day and night. How much can I eat? Of course I swing wide the doors and invite anyone in. That's our duty and our pleasure. And when I see someone who was suffering now enjoy a crust of bread as if it were a feast, of course there is no joy like that.

There is a bliss in helping others, especially in secret. In secret.

But how could I help if I were not happy? A miserable person handing out money? Very meager.

Lift my spirits. Thats what most people want and need. But where to get it except from someone who has found that treasure within themselves?

If I have peace, naturally I want to share that peace. Where is suffering supposed to go if not towards peace and happiness? We are all in this together, Jen. We are all part of the same. If my left hand is injured, my right hand reaches over to hold it.

That is just normal.

[Pelle]

Mike Williams aka zakkaria you are keep pushing your site which you made which is full of holes...proven many times.....and lies and your manipulations....its boring...i am really amazed you didnt change a bit.

[One Initiated]

And you choose to believe random people writing anything irrational on freeyellow as evidence rather than the books written by the saints, really ?

And by the way, the book I mentioned is not from RSSB, it's written by Sant Kripal Singh, someone you believed that he did advanced spiritually.

Almost all of your statements are self contradicting, on one hand you do not even believe if Soami Ji Maharaj were True Master and then you were declaring 6+ masters as legit ones and then Jaimal Singh Ji as not.
Even if by your own statements 6+ were spiritually advanced it automatically means Soami Ji Maharaj were True Master.

And you said, I am sure you have thoroughly read about, that Mastana Ji was spiritually advanced so it automatically means Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj and HIS Master Jaiaml Singh Ji Maharaj were spiritually advanced and True Masters.

Sceptic the biggest thing you are missing in all your questions, discussions and debates is Love.

Basically what you all are trying to point out some or other way is finding a fault in RSSB and the Present Master which have not been able to do so far.

So tell us your background first, did you ever follow a Master and then got hurt due to some reason or the other which brought such a level of hate and objections in your heart ?
I would like to hear about them truly.

May God bless you with loads of Love.

[Jim Sutherland]

To One Initiated who asks RS Skeptic,..."tell us your background first, did you ever follow a Master and then got hurt due to some reason or the other which brought such a level of hate and objections in your heart ?
I would like to hear about them truly."

Oh my! Now you opened Pandora' s Box! RS claims he is a Jhani that has been intiated by all RS Masters. Plus he is a high Yogada Initiate Adept in all the Self Realization Initiations, which are more advanced than RS Initiations.

He said Sant Thakar Singh's initiation " had the most Juice.

He favors the Soamibagh Parent Group initiation as the only valid one.

He is also a Christian Skeptic.

He is a Self Proclaimed Atheist that wishes he had a soul.

He claims to be a very close old friend of David Lane.

But in a dozen more years of throwing rotton eggs and tomatoes at RSSB, Kirpalis, " Moles", Self Realization followers, Christians,. and also threatening to sue Lane, Bum Wipe, for disclosing his real name on Lane's Forum,....after HE, HIM SELF, posted his own real Name on a post in Lane's RSS Studies Forum, .......he still loves to be the center of attention, and to be offered another opportunity to plug his Yellow Pages RSSB secret history.

Maybe He, RS Skeptic, with all of his Aliases, still has his tomes of Initiations and Guru experiences he can access and copy and paste here for your entertainment.

😇💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤

[Spencer Tepper]

The proof of any Teacher that is transferable is the same as the proof for Jesus. The beauty of the writings attributed to them.

When Christ says "Let one who is without sin cast the first stone, " He provides an ethic that raises the bar higher than it has ever been raised before in written history. So high that humankind is still struggling today to approach that.

When Sawan Singh writes "We have no right to call the Lord our Father unless we can call ALL men our brothers", He raises the bar on what it means to be a human being, and in that one sentence earns His place as divine, certainly as humanity's teacher. Those words, like Christ's, if understood and honored would end all war, all bigotry, all prejudice.

If there were nothing but these teachings, no spirit, no God, these words are God.

And those who are touched by them have found their inspiration.

The proof are the teachings and their effect on us, which will be different for different people.

Should we marry someone oh the basis of a lineage or on the basis of love?

The whole world knows that the honorable answer is the latter.

[777]

Hi Jen
You can't know what eventually good & bad an anonymous does/did in life

In one of my first comments I said : in my second backwards
I was a killer

Also amidst all this negativity, tristesse, you could be glad when somebody is happy and tells a about it
and how to carbon copy

Proof is in the pudding !

777

---

hallucinations : google brian+777+vivaldi

[Pelle]

Jim Sutherland you forgot that he is also the only one to know about pranahuti.....and..his"something else"

[Jim Sutherland]

Pelle, ....thanks for reminding me. I forgot about his Pranauti and some thing else initiations. Also, I should also mention being him being the Self Proclaimed Savior of all future children that he saves from the snares of Radha Swami Gurus.

I was a traveling Sales Engineer when I was first initiated, before we had free Internet and WiFi, so I printed our his entire Secret Radha Swami Yellow pages so I could take it on the road with me to read.

Most of his Anti RSSB and Anti Ruhnani information came from the Books Sant Das wrote that he published, along with his traslations of the Agra Swamibagh parent group's Gurus up to Babuji, the last Guru.

Sant Das had a Boner against RSSB and Ruhani, that RS Skeptic parroted. Most of the Jamael information came from Sant Das's 5 Volume Set of " Correspondence With Certain Americans.

I bought the entire Library of all the Books Sant Das published from his wife, and had them shipped from India on Banana Boats.

David Lane was the only other Westener saying he owned all those books, at the time, besides me, so we knew where RS Skeptic, i.e. ZAKK, i.e. Mike Williams was getting his " Thunder" from.

I seem to remember Lane saying that ZAKK never even ever went to India, so he must have become a Pranahti Adept via Books.

But in all the years, ZAKK has never once, disrespected me, on Lane's RSS studies site. That's more than I can say for 98% of the others!

[RS Sceptic]

Dear One initiated,

You said "you choose to believe random people writing anything irrational on freeyellow as evidence rather than the books written by the saints, really ?"

WOW - what a statement! Firstly - I don't believe any of it. However, I am asking YOU and others here
why would would believe a RSSB book or Kirpal book, for that matter, would have any more
credibility than the source I found on the internet.

It is a circular argument to say "because they are saints."

You don't know who is a saint or if there is any such thing.

It is an assumption.

To a non-believer, there is no such thing as a saint.

Also I don't believe Kirpal or Mastana were advanced. Whatever advanced means.

I was just saying that it was considered by many at the time that those two were advanced.

I don't believe any of it.

That's why you are confused.

You say "Almost all of your statements are self contradicting,"

only if you take them to mean something they don't mean.

You say "on the one hand you do not even believe if Soami Ji Maharaj were True Master"

That's not what I was saying. I was saying that according to some writers he was not an authorised successor.
I personally don't care.
However, those who do believe have a hugh problem if Swami is not the successor to Tulsi
because then the whole of RSSB is not authentic if Swami Ji was not authentic.

You say "then you were declaring 6+ masters as legit ones and then Jaimal Singh Ji as not."

You don't understand the simple point I was making?

let me make it clear.

Swami Ji declared them as his successors - that makes them legit.

That means they were authorised successors.

jaimal was not mentioned so therefore not authorised.

If you say "it was in a private meeting that he was told to teach in Punjab"

Well then - why believe that when there is no evidence?

And if you do believe, then why don't you believe Kirpal when he claims the same.

I personally don't care, but am asking why believe one and not the other.

Then you say, "Even if by your own statements 6+ were spiritually advanced it automatically means Soami Ji Maharaj were True Master."

Doesn't mean that at all.

Swami ji might not be officially authorised which would mean he is not the successor, but may still be advanced.

Perhaps like kirpal. Maybe kirpal was not authorised but was advanced.

I am just throwing up the possibilitues.

Like the possibility that a person may not be the official successor, but could still be advanced.

Certainly we know from history that thethe opposite can happen.

someone can be authorised but not be spiritually advanced.

Charan singh for instance, by his own admission was not advanced.

The biggest thing I am missing is love?

Okay - tell me about this four letter word.

I just pointed to the information about Babani. If that is true, then that does indeed show lots of faults in RSSB.

If you don't believe the babani episode you can carry on in your ignorance is bliss.

May the fictional God bless you also

[Dungeness]

"How many of you actually feel the pain and suffering of the world. Why is it okay to just sit and meditate and find peace and joy in one's own inner world and then continually talk about it even though its not actually helping others. It seems like a selfish ego to me. I'm very far from perfect and I know that but at least I do care about the suffering of others.

I think most do and we wall some part of it off too. Of course,
we try to help, offer support silently or maybe actively if lucky,
reach deep into ourself to say or do or say something that eases
pain. It's connectedness and humanity that's innate within us,
not the separative ego.

In the end though you have to be strong yourself, be at peace
within, stable, in control of raging emotions and a mind out of
control. Then you're equipped to help.

However far we miss the mark, I think the mystical practice's aim
is to do just that. Control the mind, eliminate the "ego" rather
than enhance it, listen rather than talk.

It's not some self-absorbed, reclusive withdrawal from the world
or the suffering of others. "Ascended Masters in Himalayan Caves" are a product of the imagination"

[777]

Sceptic : Well then - why believe that when there is no evidence?

Hi all
I propose to only believe when you have evidence

Charan said
If you find a better system , . . i go with you

777

PS
Nothing

[Anonymous]

"Dera traditions do not allow nepotism"
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/haryana/-dera-traditions-do-not-allow-nepotism/461270.html

A grandson of Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh’s predecessor Shah Satnam Singh says there is no place for nepotism under Dera Sacha Sauda traditions. Ram Rahim Singh’s family has been making efforts to appoint his son Jasmeet Singh as his successor. It is for Ram Rahim to decide if he wishes his son to succeed him.
...
Shah Satnam Singh, who was the second head of Dera Sacha Sauda founded by Shah Mastana Balochistani in 1948, had nominated Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh as his successor in 1990, a year before his death.

Shah Satnam Singh’s grandson Bhupinder Singh, a farmer, told The Tribune today that their family had stopped visiting the dera in 2002. Incidentally, this was the year when allegations of sexual exploitation of dera sadhvis against Ram Rahim surfaced.

“My grandfather, Shah Satnam Singh ji, started looking for a successor when he attained the age of 70. Dera followers wanted my father Ranjit Singh to succeed my grandfather but he strictly told them that the dera was not a personal property that a father could pass on to his son,” he said.

Later, Shah Satnam Singh named Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh as his successor.
During clashes between Sikhs and dera followers, radical leader Sukhwinder Singh Khalsa had alleged that Ram Rahim Singh with the help of Punjab terrorists had intimidated Shah Satnam ji to make him dera head.

“We heard such allegations when Ram Rahim Singh became dera head at the age of 23. But we had no evidence to support this,” Bhupinder said.

Asked what has changed in the dera since he grandfather left, Bhupinder said he was only 15 years’ old when Shah Satnam ji died. They could see commercialisation having taken over the dera culture.

Free langar service to devotees has also given way to canteens where followers have to pay for food.

[Anonymous]

Radha Soami sect seeks nod to sell ‘excess’ land

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/himachal/radha-soami-sect-seeks-nod-to-sell-excess-land/461291.html

The Radha Soami Satsang, Beas, in Himachal has sought the permission of the state government to allow it to sell excess land donated by followers.

...
It is learnt that the file, which had been sent by the Revenue Department to the Law Department for legal opinion, has been sent back with adverse comments. The Law Department has clarified that since all religious and charitable institutions are allowed to hold excess land, allowing them to sell this land will be illegal.

The government, in relaxation of the Himachal Pradesh Ceiling on Land Holdings Act, 1972, had in August 2012 brought in a legislation, allowing religious and charitable institutions to own more than 150 bighas land. Many sects possess excess land which has either been purchased or donated by people at various places in Kangra and Shimla. The move was primarily aimed at wooing the big chunk of electorate before the last Assembly polls.

“While allowing these institutions to hold excess land, there was a clear provision which said they could not sell, mortgage or dispose of such land held over and above the limit,” revealed officials. As such, allowing them to sell land would be illegal. Moreover, if the Radha Soami Satsang is allowed to sell land, it will not have to seek permission under Section 118 of the Land Reform and Tenancy Act as it was given the status of agriculturists in the early nineties.

[Anonymous]

Dera Sacha Sauda uses 3 words that are different from the 5 words used by RSSB. They don't practice sound but only Simran of these 3 words.

[Satya]

Why do you people spend so much time in figuring out if Jaimal Singh or Swamiji was authorised or not?
Still Swamiji and Babaji, even if we assume they were not authorised, gave teachings
that are good. Thats all that matters.

Did they ask you to give money? No.
Then who gave? You gave.

In the Babani case, who proposed to give first? Was it Maharaj or Babani? Babani.
Babani forgot or did not know Rule No 1. What is Rule No 1?

Rule No 1: Go To any Guru or Satsang or Temple. Keep the Purse, Cheque books and ATM cards at Home.
You go for spiritual purpose. Not monetary.

Rule No 2: Never break Rule No 1.

Now he wanted his portion of it back. RSSB denied.

In the olden days, a German lady enthusiastically gave donations to Ramanaasram. And then when the enthusiasm was
over, she demanded complete refund. After some arguments, matter was reported to Ramana Maharishi. He simply directed
the management to return her amount and add Rs 5 ( in those days, RS 5/- is a large number, considering
that Ramanaasram was always living hand to mouth).

A rich organization like RSSB should have simply given a good compensation to Babani. That is the ideal
human way to help humans.

[Spencer Tepper]

Dear Satya

Krishan Babani was a well known and fine speaker, and loved by Maharaji.

The story about him is entirely fictitious and without any corroboration nor verified authorship.

You might as all have invented a new story and claimed it was about Winston Churchill having regretted fighting Hitler.

It's that preposterous and without evidence.

But Church of the Churchless, like any Church, has its share of those who believe, not on the basis of fact, but instead because they want to believe.

You can be as blind about faith in something as you can about faith in slander against something. It's just a mirror of one's own psychology.

[juan]

The disciples of this Baba ( Dera Sacha Sauda of Guru Ram Rahim Insaan)claim that To save the nation and people from devastating effects, Guruji had to go to prison.

There was a great threat of war between India and China because of the long dispute between the two nations. The results would have been very devastating for India.
The Guru to save the nation and people from hazardous effects willingly accepted to take the whole burden on his shoulders by going to prison. A peace pact was signed between the two nations and the threat of war disappeared immediately within two hours after his holiness was condemned by court and accepted to be jailed.

[mike williams]

I had no idea people were talking about me. Have not followed Radhasoami for many years.
First, I received an email from a Rajinder rep that he would kill me if I said anything bad about
Kirpal. Next that rep posted on RS Studies using my real name and posting pyschotic messages
under my name. That is now illegal in California. Next ball bearing were placed in my brakes,
but my wife drove the car that day and had complete brake failure going 65 down the freeway.

I was about to go to the FBI when Lane stopped the posting of this fellow assuming my identity.
I had informed Lane about the death threat from this fellow before all this. Finally a fellow named ratnagarro got Lane to stop this rep using my name. I have never wrote my real name on RS Studies.

The Beas reps contacted me immediately after Radhasoami Beas Secret History was featured many years ago on David Icke's website. He had asked me for permission.. David is now famous for reptilians.
I do not agree with Icke's religious views, but do agree on the New World Order.
The Beas reps informed me Gurinder said the Secret History is correct, but he has some differences on interpretaion of the facts.

Oddly enough, if you carefully read the Secret History it is not negative on RS Beas as much as it seems.
I do have confidential information from the late S D Maheswari I have not published. My intention was not
to crucify RS Beas and I informed Gurinder of this.

The Secret History is rather a direct attack on Kirpal and successors. And, on Jaimal.

I am actually agnostic, not atheist. But, I joke about it.

Gurinder likes my book because it does crucify Kirpal and gang. David Lane had wrote a great book called
Radhasoami Tradition on Kirpal and gang. This was his best book. Everything he said about Kirpal
was true.

Pranahuti comes from the Sahaj Marg group in India. I was initiated by Ram Chandra before he
died in 1982. The group I believe has a fake master now (grin). But pranahuti is real.
Don't know if Ram Chandra left a real successor.

Remember, Chachaji did leave Sawan Singh in charge of Beas (forced him). But, not as a Guru or initiator.
Sawan did sit at the feet of the last Agra guru and Beas has always accepted the Agra lineage as a real lineage.

Remember, Salig Ram started the Radhasoami faith., not Swami Ji. The 5 paganistic names were replaced by Radhasoami mantra. The five names are satanic. Radhasomi is supposed to be above the satanic regions below Sach Kand.

I have also been initiated by RadhaKrishna gurus from Brindraban. Krishna is a demonic entity.

Sant Mat has extreme resemblance to Freemasonary. The theosophical society by Blavatsky Alice Bailey
said they were Freemasons and first published their books under the Lucifer trust. Now Lucis trust.

Yes, yoga is satanic. I tried to find my way above the satanic and see if there was anything there.

Was there a real true God ? Was there real true power for the good ?

The gods of the five names track back to Egypt and the Summerians. Only the names have changed.
Kundalini has always been there. ALWAYS.

RA is the chief God of the ancient egypitans. White people crossed the Indus valley thousands
of years ago and started the class system in India. Alexander the Great was turned back
at the Beas River in India about 330 B.C

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Spencer

What evidence do you have that the Babani story is fictitious.

Just because you don't like it, it's fictitious.

The incident is well known and documented.

You are the only person who claims it is fictitious

[mike williams]

Hi R S Skeptic

It seems you are beginning to understand. Only a true seeker will ever understand.

Faquir Chand said it well, when he said you will find yourself hamging on the
gallows with no support in the end. You will end up rejecting almost everything.

You will find you have no self. That enlightenment will seem facinating.
But even that is not necessary to realize.

Do we survive death is the great question. Enlightenment will not give
you that answer.

The religious spend their lives supressing a self that never existed, thereby
reinforcing the delusion. There never was a self that ever existed to ever have
gotten rid of.

But, beyond enlightenment is compassion. Compassion needs no laws.

On the road of life, compassion stops when it sees wrong doing and fixes
the situation. Thereby the compassionate always appear to be bad people
to the public.

Man is a horrible animal. Man lies and lives in complete illusion.

Almost everytime you try to help someone and succeed, they will betray
you and use you.

Man needs his delusions to get by in life. Logic does not help them.

For, even if they become convinced of your logic, they will replace
the old delsion with a new delusion.

To destroy peoples delusions, one needs a replacement for them. The problem is
there is no replacement to give them.

For, compassion has no reward.

[Spencer Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic

You wrote

"What evidence do you have that the Babani story is fictitious.

Just because you don't like it, it's fictitious."

Just because you like it is it fact?

It is fiction until you provide evidence, which you have failed to do.

The story has no verification from anyone who was there.

The story has no attributed author.

And no independent corroboration from anyone else.

Just a delusion shared by those with a need to believe it.

Fables are well known, also.

I am open to verification. You are not providing it. Until you do, the story is fiction.

Your choice to believe it unverified is bigotry.

In the United States we have a very simple ethic : innocent until proven guilty.

I'm not sure where you hale from, but this ethic is very popular and well known and honored here.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Mike

You wrote

"Man is a horrible animal. Man lies and lives in complete illusion."

Mike, Try it, you might like. Try being a real man first.

Then you might not think it's so bad.

Whatever happened to you, you're here. So make the best of it, and when you enter someone's home, try not to run it down. Don't bring a white glove, don't look under the furniture. Be happy for the view out the window. Out of dirty and filth beautiful trees rise.

[mike williams]

The devils are in Kirpal's groups. I am talking about possession. You people think
Satan is a fallacy. Evil as an actual entity does not exist. Evil is the stuff of fairy tailes.

Lucifer does exist and his twin Satan. They do control this earth including your Guru..
Most religions are Satanic.

You worship Satan no matter how smart you think you are.

Did you know the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Freemasons, and many others, all have
the same initiations ? All were formed by high powered Freemasons ?

Did you know Salig Ram, the founder of Radhasoami Faith, was a high powered English official
in India as postmaster general of Uttar Pradesh ? He actually initiated a Viceroy ?
All high powered English officials back then were Freemasons . 16 USA presidents were Freemasons
including George Washington and Benjamin Franklin. Both George Bush's
were Skull and Bones..

Theosophy is Freemasonry. All the inner planes are the same as Sant Mat. Manly P Hall was a 33rd degree Mason. All from ancient Egypt. Same gods same inner planes.

Jiddu Krishnamuti was supposed to be the new Christ. He debunked Free Masons.
the inner planes and god men. He shattered theosophy and gurus. Blavatsky and Alice Baiiley
and Annie Bessant and Leadbeater were debunked. The Theosophical Society collapsed.

I can excuse satsangis from being stupid. But I cannot excuse exsatsangis from being stupid.
Get off your lazy butts.
None of you exsatsangis have a clue.

[Spencer Tepper]

Dear Mike Williams

I see the things you don't believe in.
And I see the things you do believe in.

You believe in the conspiracy of Free Masons, of devils, of even the Founding Fathers....

But your views are biased.

Krishnamurti did not debunk Theosophy. He rejected the effort of that organization to promote him as a child-Christ. He was actually very wise, and their judgment of his character was not poor at all.

Even Kings have become students of spirituality. No news there. Certainly no conspiracy.

If a devil knows there is spirit and God, they may be more spiritually advanced than someone with no knowledge of spirit. Devils are people, too, Mike. They also struggle with their job.

If there is a conspiracy, Mike, it's not just the X files.

It's all the files, A to Z. The entire creation is a conspiracy to screw Mike Williams and keep him in box, like an elephant, feeding him peanuts.

Under every rock, a whole host of teaming life struggling for their own selfish reasons, just like you and I.

[mike williams]

Krishnamurti was my first mentor. I met him at 12 years of age and
knew him for many many years. He debunked not only theosophy,
but almost every other religion. He rejected the role of the incarnation
of Lord Maitreya, the new Christ on earth.

I saw him do it first hand. I was there.

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Spencer Tepper,

There is no reason to disbelieve the account of Babani.

I could ask you what evidence you have about all the things you believe.

How do you know Jaimal was an appointed successor to Swami Ji?

if you have no evidence , then why do you believe it?

You seem to selectively believe what you want to believe.

[Spencer Tepper]

Mike Williams, I also went to Ojai to hear him, and I'm pretty sure he would not want anyone representing his views for him, as he stated himself.

If you honor your own mentor you should follow that instruction.

One thing that can be said, he never rejected his destiny as a world teacher, only the role of an organization leader regarded as having some special truth.

At no point did he state or write any rejection of any teaching, other than asserting his personal belief in no formal organized "path" to truth... Simply a personal journey.

Krishnamurti was gracious. Pointing the finger of condemnation at any organization is quite the opposite of his entire personality and philosophy.

The Krishnamurti you knew is not the one I knew.

[mike williams]

Hi Spencer
What happened to Krishnamurti is well known. You are too far off the mark
for me to respond to. No contact point in reality.

[Spencer Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic

You wrote

"There is no reason to disbelieve the account of Babani."

Anytime you read an account attributed to a real person but no author the question arises as to whether it is true or not. If the author is unknown, and there are no sources of independent verification, then it might as well be a fable. That secret author could be using Babani's name falsely.

Sceptic, you really should apply a higher standard for what you accept as truth. Because in this case, it's nothing more than slander. Not only slander against Maharaji, but against Babani, since he is not here to verify this claim.

Any author willing to name someone else, but not themselves, is hiding something.

And pasting that over and over again does not make it "well documented". Only well-pasted.

[One Initiated]

Sceptic,

I would completely agree with Spencer here.

You'd also need to notice that the text records and mentions the statements of at least 10-12 different persons also including Maharaj Ji and Babaji as well.

So the question is who is this author who had access to literally every contractor and every sewadar and every person involved to collect their statements and then describing the meetings with Master in such details as he was himself witnessing them.

This all looks fabricated and nothing more than slander.

Sant Kripal Singh is a well known name and his sect is still going on, the book on biography of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj I mentioned in one of the earlier comments was written by Kripal Singh and a proper published text with the details of author which you can verify with the current master of their sect.

If you still want to believe Babani's anonymous slanderous text is real and Kripal Singh's well documented and internationally published book about Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj is false - sure keep believing what you want and be happy. Although that'd be a loss, a net loss proposition.