My atheist sources of awe: existence, evolution, consciousnessI

In my previous Church of the Churchless post I talked about how much I liked "The Way of Wonder" by Jack Haas. Wonder, awe, even reverence -- these aren't feelings that only religious believers have. 

Hey, us atheists are equally wonder-filled, awestruck, reverent before something much greater than us.

We just are in awe of what really exists, not what is imagined to exist.  (Like God, heaven, soul, spirit.)

On a dog walk this afternoon I got to thinking about what I find most atheistically awesome about reality. Here's my top three, in order of awesomeness. 

Naturally I've included links to some of my blog posts concerning these subjects.

(1) Existence exists. 
There's nothing more mind-blowing to me than the stark fact that existence exists. If I ever feel like I need some chill up my spine, all I have to do is contemplate the undeniable reality of the cosmos. I am. The world is. Wow! 

Check out: 
"Existence exists" -- the cosmic lock to which humans have no key
Existence exists. Amazing!
Embrace awe that existence exists, not religion

(2) Evolution says all life has a common ancestor
We all are one. Humans, starfish, roses, elephants, bacteria, everything. Some 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago there was a Last Universal Common Ancestor to which all life is related. This likely was a small single-cell organism. Far out! I'm related to everything alive.

Check out:
Evolution is sacred, religion is profane

(3) Consciousness allows us to feel awestruck 

I used to feel that consciousness was way more mysterious than I consider it to be now. Science is making strides in understanding how consciousness arises in brains. Nonetheless, I'm still amazed that I, and every other conscious being, is able to be aware of the world that surrounds us, and indeed is us. 

Check out:
Float gently on a stream of consciousness
"I Am a Strange Loop"-- a book that beautifully explains consciousness, soul, and I-ness
Consider a cosmos with no consciousness

Comments

[Spencer Tepper]

"We just are in awe of what really exists, not what is imagined to exist. (Like God, heaven, soul, spirit.)"

Brian, in addition to the Atheist and the Religious is the place of the mystic.

The mystic is awestruck by their own experiences, whether they are internal or external (and they realize how tenuous and how subjective the boundary between those two really is).

Awestruck, in love with that, which fascinates them, they seek to learn and experience more, to go deeper into that, and to investigate that.

The true Mystic is scrupulous in distinguishing imagination from reality, and acknowledges the influence of both on perception.

An Atheist can become a great mystic, for they have a no tolerance for imagined concepts and seek out reality.

But the mystic goes further by investigating scrupulously day in day out, and year in year their own own experience within and without, and sharpening their discrimination, opening the door to levels of experience and deeper realities.

A scientist working in their own lab making new discoveries, and always testing, and adjusting and testing, always questioning, and testing again the use of their own attention, and the discipline of their own concentration, noting the effects... this is the natural course for the mystic.

Then God and the Spirit are terms they use to explain physical and subtle realities they witness and experience reliably from that natural laboratory of their meditation.

[Jen]

Existence exists. What does that even mean. It seems to me that everyone is living in their own little bubble. I'm in my 70's now and expecting my bubble to end in the near future. What then. What proof do we have about life after death. All we have are stories and beliefs and imagination. Maybe we just cease to exist and then all this struggle through life with our goals and hopes and fears is all for nothing.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote
"It seems to me that everyone is living in their own little bubble. I'm in my 70's now and expecting my bubble to end in the near future. What then. What proof do we have about life after death. All we have are stories and beliefs and imagination. Maybe we just cease to exist and then all this struggle through life with our goals and hopes and fears is all for nothing."

You are in good company with Ecclesiastes.

He wrote that all was vanity.

19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.[b] 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?
Ecclesiastes 3:19-22

[Spencer Tepper]

13 Better was a poor and wise youth than an old and foolish king who no longer knew how to take advice.
Ecclesiastes 4:13

[RS Sceptic]

Spence, you sound like a brain washed idiot, excuse my french.

You said: The true Mystic is scrupulous in distinguishing imagination from reality, and acknowledges the influence of both on perception.

So tell me, and speak from your own experience, how exactly do you personally distinguish between what you imagine and what is reality?

Most likely all you have is beliefs. You read the bible as a christian. The bible did not give you any facts, but just beliefs.

Then in Radha Soami books and satsangs you acquired more beliefs. No facts.

Even if you have some "inner experiences" - they also are not reality. They are an eyes closed experience. It's called imagination and it's all a creation of your mind because the mind is the source of all eyes closed experiences.

Please explain which reality you are talking about? and how you know it is reality. or is it just a belief?

[RS Sceptic]

Accident at Haynes Park. man dies. cover up. No sign of the guru.

http://www.bedfordshire-news.co.uk/cover-up-claim-after-fatal-scaffolding-fall-sparks-at-science-of-the-soul-centre-in-haynes/story-30428965-detail/story.html

a sevadar fell off the scaffolding and died 2 days later.

so what was the all-knowing all-powerful guru doing when this happened?

The sevadar was there helping the guru's mission.

if you have a brain you are going to have to face it that the guru is not all knowing and not all powerful.

He is just a regular guy, making a living for himself and his family which is why his sons are billionaires.

[777]

Likewise Charan visting us and spoke dutch in Holland during 90 minutes
while in India just to explain the teachings,
the sevadar will certainly have had a nice "exit" better "entrance"

ps
Brian this is great you went from 1*0 =1
to
""This likely was a small single-cell organism""

Question :
When U will die -worldly spoken- will your wife maintain the existence of this blog ?

777

another ps:
To your taste, what enhancements should make
The Almighty (if exists) to this creation
to your humble opinion ?

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi RS Sceptic

In exact contradiction to your claim, research into meditation practice proves that meditation does not operate through the mechanism of imagination but the opposite. Meditation suppresses imagination centers in the brain, with the result of increasing awareness to internal and external stimuli.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/meditations-calming-effects-pinpointed-in-brain/

Furthermore, the practice of meditation can actually help repair our DNA.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/changing-our-dna-through-mind-control/

Decades of research prove that mediation, far from being purely unrelated to physical reality in fact is the opposite... A means to improve our physical functioning.

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/harvard-neuroscientist-meditation-not-only-reduces-stress-here’s-how-it-changes-your-brain

Your claims, which emerge from a prejudice whose source I can't and won't conjecture, are baseless.

[Spencer Tepper]

http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/05/the-healing-art-of-meditation/
Additional scientific evidence of the mechanism and positive effects in this real world of meditation.

[Jim Sutherland]

Connect inside to THIS Sound, 24/7, and you will be liberated!

https://attunedvibrations.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-cart-for-digital-products/download.php?file=tcqFuubK2iEUzFknPQ%3D%3D

[Jim Sutherland]

852 hz

https://attunedvibrations.com/solfeggio/

[Jim Sutherland]

Here it is for all you Seekers who have never been able to hear the Sound inside. I have been connected to this very Same Sound 24/7 since April 1988.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E-WmZU1ku6U

[Jen]

Hi guys,

I'm just having a chuckle here so don't take offence...

For Brian its being "in awe of what really exists". I understand that walking in nature can be very pleasant and we can experience a wonderful sense of just being - in the moment. I know this kind of spiritual feeling of connectedness and presence in nature. But is it "really real reality"?

Spencer has posted some links which explain the effect of meditation which can even change our brain.

Jim posted a link to a youtube about Meditation - Solfeggio Scale. Awful sound Jim. I prefer the tinkling high pitched sound in my own head. No big deal.

My question is what is really real? Isn't the brain interpreting all the data that we are exposed to and then we die and we no longer have a brain. According to Gurinder we all just merge into the One. How can we believe that spiritual experiences during meditation are real when we are in a physical human form. Even OBE's could just be imagination, just using a different part of the brain.

[RS Sceptic]

I just read the articles posted by Spencer.

I seriously doubt his ability to function in the real world.

The article does not say anything of the sort.

firstly the article clearly refers to pranayama

and breath based practices - so is completely irrelevant to the sant mat type of meditation which specifically tells you to keep your breathing normal and do not change it.

so (1) its irrelevant to the meditation we are talking about
and
(2) it does not state anywhere that meditation suppresses imagination.

secondly
the article is irrelevant to the our topic of discussion.

our topic is
distinguishing between reality and imagination.

the articles are irrelevant.

It goes without saying that any eyes closed meditation is happening inside your head, so to say it's reality is complete nonsense. no scientific article can possibly say that it's reality.

Spence - you are clutching at straws

and not addressing the question

I asked you how you distinguish between imagination and reality.

you have given no answer

I suspect because you don't have one.

[RS Sceptic]

Jim tells us to connect to the sound on a youtube video

and "you will be liberated"

This is getting beyond a joke.

Jim,
are YOU liberated?

I would suspect not.

yet you give a path of liberation to others

and it is listening to a youtube sound.

This is the level of intelligence of RS followers.

Surely your guru could have found this youtube video and told all the followers to
listen to it instead of years of meditation.

RS followers are seriously delusional.
They give their power of rational thought away to their guru

then wonder why their life is all screwed.

doing free work under the pretext of seva

it's really just free labour

one person dies on the job and still the brain washed followers don't get it.

I heard that someone asked the guru about the death and he said
"It was written that way"

It's all nonsense.

He can say anything and the followers will believe it

that is why they are followers

because they can't think for themselves

[RS Sceptic]

As for 777

I have read some of his comments.

I would classify him as someone who needs to be sectioned.

Seriously - he finds it impossible to write anything that has any real meaning.

his comments are incoherent and meaningless

and he thinks he is a mystic.

[Jim Sutherland]

RS Skeptic sarcastically comments to Jim:

" Jim tells us to connect to the sound on a youtube video

and "you will be liberated"

This is getting beyond a joke.

Jim,
are YOU liberated?

I would suspect not.

yet you give a path of liberation to others

and it is listening to a youtube sound."

Jim compassionately responds:

There wasn't any Youtube or Internet when I that Sound was turned on in my head the first time I noticed it in April 1988. The Path of Sant Mat is the Path of Light & Sound.

Sawan Singh, the Great Master, advised Seekers to concentrate on two of the sounds heard, of the various sounds that might be heard during meditation. Those two were either the Conch, ( Sea Shell ), and the Bell. The Bell has many various possible sounds, depending on size, configuration, material, etc., but the Youtube example I linked is the closest example of the GONG of the Bell that will liberate even you, the Skeptic, once you hook up with IT, with out mistaking it for Tinnitus.

The Shabd Sound does not " tinkle" or " chirp",...it GONGS 24/7 every time a connected Desciple is awake and unoccupied with worldly duties.

I'll bet RS is not the only skepticism in life that you have, is it?

Are you liberated from any thing?

[777]

Low IQ
is only calling names without a single example

7

[777]

-
If I were a mystic I wouldn't degrade U
-

[Spencer Tepper]

RS Sceptic

The first article discusses Prana in the first section only and refers to other practices and research on a broader range of methods, including repetition.

Nor did you read any of the articles discussing various forms of focused mindful meditation and their effects on the brain.

Read all three articles.

The comments about changes in brain, suppression of centers of the brain associated with distracted day dreaming, etc...

Again, your claims are false.

[Spencer Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic

Here is a more complete set of scholarly articles about the effects of meditation.

Keep in mind this is how much of science works. No one has ever seen gravity or detected gravity waves. Two objects separated in outer space start moving towards each other. But no fuel or magnetism is detected. There is no measurable cause. So Newton just invented the notion "gravity" to explain it.

And we don't measure gravity. We measure the mass of objects and their velocity and rates of acceleration in order to make statements about this invisible force.

So that is all that can scientifically be stated about anything that cannot be measured directly.

We measure the effects on other physical objects we can measure.

Is meditation just imagination? No. it is a very real force with very positive effects. The meditation research proves it.

Does that make my image real? No. However if that image is stable, and continues to return only under very specific conditions which I can control in meditation, that does mean this image I see repeatedly, and which is corroborated in the testimony of dozens of mystics over the entire millennia of recorded history is indeed based in something real.

The sky, dear Sceptic, isn't blue. That's just how your brain interprets and presents it. Same with any internal stimuli the brain processes. What I see under controlled conditions is connected to something real. What I see is my brain's visual symbolic representation of it.

If we restrict our conversation to what is known in the literature, both scientific and anecdotal, we might get past prejudice and imagination to discuss something real.

Brain cortex thins out as we age, especially if we drink alcohol or take drugs regularly. But amazingly, the brain grows thicker in key areas of higher brain functioning in long term meditators:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361002/

This was the article I meant to send earlier:

Brain scans during meditation show supressed mind wandering, self referential and imagination (day dreaming) systems.
http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/05/the-healing-art-of-meditation/

Supressed cortical areas are also discussed here in a review of meditation research with different practices , even though, as you pointed out, the main focus in the first few paragraphs is Prana

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/meditations-calming-effects-pinpointed-in-brain/

Furthermore, the practice of meditation can actually help repair our DNA.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/changing-our-dna-through-mind-control/

Decades of research prove that mediation, far from being purely unrelated to physical reality is in fact is the opposite... A means to improve our physical and mental functioning.

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/harvard-neuroscientist-meditation-not-only-reduces-stress-here’s-how-it-changes-your-brain

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen

You ask

"My question is what is really real? Isn't the brain interpreting all the data that we are exposed to and then we die and we no longer have a brain. According to Gurinder we all just merge into the One. How can we believe that spiritual experiences during meditation are real when we are in a physical human form. Even OBE's could just be imagination, just using a different part of the brain. "

Jen, let's start by acknowledging that this is where you are today.

The entire world could be imaginary, informed by pieces of reality.

And therefore the entire world may come to an end when you die.

Could be true.

It's is conjecture about the future and you are old enough to know that at this stage of life, short of a miracle, you won't know until it happens.

Even a miracle could just be imagination.

Let's start there. That is your "reality" and what choice do you have but to make the best of it?

Why believe anyone, unless you already have a personal sense that there is something you want to believe, if only because it helps pass the time pleasantly?

So this is one big reason people meditate... Besides the fact that it is very healthy and mostly pleasant and at times otherworldly ecstatic.

Some of us want to see that eternal truth right now. If it really exists, we'd like to see it. So we follow a practice and see what happens.

Because short of that experience, there is no proof.

And even that experience isn't final proof. Just proof that we can experience in full throated 3D and HD some astounding experiences.

But hey, that is at least a couple of degrees more substantial and interesting than trying to convince ourselves of anything.

So rather than expect some Hollywood actor to lead us like children, so we don't have to lift a finger, why not take active responsibility to develop your own level of awareness and consciousness?

Then all that is left is to pick a method and get started.

[Jim Sutherland]

To RS Skeptic: The exact Resonance of the Bell Sound I posted the Link to, is Liberation from Transmigration from The Wheel of 84, Charausi. Once a Marked soul is connected to that Sound, assures us that we will never have to descend back to a lower specie.

Of course, there are additional benefits, but being liberated from Transmigration is the # One greatest benefit to me.

If Bell Tones don't liberate any one, why is the Bell in Philadelphia, PA. Called the " Liberty" Bell?

If you can catch the resonance of even that Bell 24/7, your skepticism might change from sarcasm to optimism, at the very least.

https://www.nps.gov/inde/upload/-Uncracked-2s.mp3

[RS Sceptic]

I seriously think that Spencer is out of touch with reality and is unable to follow a simple argument.

The statement I challenged was this:
the true Mystic is scrupulous in distinguishing imagination from reality

In response, Spencer said:
“research into meditation practice proves that meditation does not operate through the mechanism of imagination but the opposite. Meditation suppresses imagination centers in the brain”
I have read the articles and they do not prove what Spencer says.
Here’s why:
The meditation all of those articles are referring to is NOT even remotely like RS meditation. RS is like mantra meditation. Repeating a mantra, which they call simran.
RS meditation is NOT mindfulness.
RS meditation is NOT pranayama.
So those articles are irrelevant.
Why is Spencer quoting articles that say meditation (probably mindfulness) repairs DNA.
So what if it does?
Maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t.
Who cares?
What has that to do with our topic? which was imagination and reality.

[RS Sceptic]

Spencer,

I really don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.

When you close your eyes - you are no longer interacting with the real world as we know it.

Rather you are in your inner world - which is called the imagination.

You might see things. If you do - you saw them in your mind, in your imagination.

you definately did not see them in the outer world.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jim

Is it fair to bring up the Shabd for those who can't here it or rise in it?

I too love that deep resonance and all the Caucophany of the ten, like an orchestra tuning their instruments in great harmony... The flute sings a lovely note then all the others join in, each in their own octave, then all become silent in the thunderous presence of that bell that is the very fabric of matter, space and time, and carries us up, gently let's us slip this coil in a moment into a shower of stars. But it makes no sense to bring it up. It's Masters' gift. What can you expect of anyone else? And isn't that His job? From our perspective everyone already has that birthright, but so few are aware and waste their days suppressing their own capacity, and angry at anyone who even mentions it.

Still, I hear you, though.

But I think it makes sense to mention what is in reach, and that is internal practice, internal effort at focus, don't you think?

[RS Sceptic]

someone sent me this link about the death of sant kirpal singh ji's wife.

i must say i was rather intrigued.

If this account is really true - it has a lot to say about the validity of at least kirpal singh's path. I am not sure if radha soami followers have ever experienced anything like this.

But I am not sure if is really happened or if it's just a story, maybe exaggerated.

I copy it below for the reference of readers:

Amidst the familiar and much-loved surroundings of Sawan Ashram – earthly home of all the Master’s children – the Master’s wife, affectionately known as Mata Ji, took leave of the worldly scene and returned to her Spiritual Abode on 3rd April, 1970.

Her frail form had suffered from the dread disease of cancer for about four years. On this subject, the Master afterwards remarked,

Many people who have experienced this sickness have suffered greatly and have screamed aloud with the agonies of pain that it causes, but with the Grace of God, through having direct contact with Him within, Mata Ji was spared the pinching effects of the burden.

Those who daily met and talked with her would enjoy a cheerful conversation accompanied by smiles. She was able to gently move about the Ashram at her pleasure, content in the knowledge of being in the care and protection of the Master, with her daily needs fulfilled under the direction and personal attention of Bibi Hardevi Ji, who administered constant selfless service with loving care and consideration.

For the last four or five months, Mata Ji was forced to spend more time resting in bed, although she was still able to slowly make her way into the Master’s quarters which annexed her own, and mingle among the friendly faces of the Satsangis. Eventually she was unable to get around any more, and while the Master was on tour in the latter part of March, her condition worsened. On 30th March the Master asked her if she was ready to leave and she replied,

Yes, in three clays.

The Master thought for a moment and then said,

Well, three days, that means 2nd April – I will be very busy that day (due to the occasion of special remembrance of Baba Sawan Singh Ji – the 3rd would be better, in the early afternoon, say 1:30 p.m. – I will be more free then.

On the night of 2nd April the Master became very ill physically, and on the 3rd the already programmed initiation was cancelled, although some five or six hundred people had requested initiation and many had travelled from far distances. Great disappointment was felt in the hearts of the hopeful ones.

At about 1 p.m. Bibi Hardevi Ji, who throughout the difficult period of Mata Ji’s illness had constantly served at the bedside, noticed that her condition was very serious. Someone suggested that the Master be called to the room, but Bibi Ji pointed out that the Master was in deep meditation and could not be disturbed. Ignoring this, the person approached the Master and on returning to his physical form the Master asked,

What is it?

When told about Mata Ji’s condition the Master said,

I know it.

On further request the Master went to Mata Ji and looking down at her very kindly, asked,

Are you prepared?

She looked up and said,

Yes.

The Master said,

Are you sure your heart is absolutely clear – with no hatred for anyone?

She replied,

Yes, I have nothing against anyone in my heart.

The Master said,

Then why are you not smiling?

With this, the thin shrunken face, blue with suffering, began to glow with joy. The blueness went, and the countenance became clear and serene. Ripples of laughter came forth and she looked radiant with happiness. Taking hold of the Master’s hand she said,

Forgive me, if I have ever done anything to offend You.

The Master smiled. She said,

Both forms are here – I am seeing You outside and inside.

The Master said,

All right, now close your eyes and relax,

and with these words He returned to His room. Within ten or fifteen minutes, Mata Ji had left.

Those who were present at the time and witnessed the amazingly joyful and peaceful happening, spread the news to others. As the people learned of this wonderful example of the soul’s final departure from the human form, sadness and solemnity turned into rejoicing. They brought musical instruments and began to sing hymns of praise to the Lord. The Master disapproved of the singing, but they could not contain the wonder and exuberance in their hearts and wished to express the joy of the occasion in music, as is the custom on happy events.

All ceremonies were performed according to Sikh rites, the Master being firm in advocating that one should live one’s worldly part of life within one’s religion and customs – the Holy Science of the Light and Sound Principle being the Spirtual Part. As with the Hindus, the Sikh customs uphold cremation on the funeral pyre, and so Mata Ji’s body was lovingly placed to rest, attended by the hands of those near and dear – by both her physical and spiritual relations.

Normally, on the second day after a funeral, the remaining bones are gathered with the ashes, and are thrown into a holy river, according to custom. As the Master’s program included a visit to Rishikesh to attend a meeting there on 5th April, the flowers as they are called, were carried in the Master’s car to that well-known religious place beside the waters of the Ganges. There is a certain location on this holy river where the bones of the bodies of religious people and renunciates are immersed. On approaching that place, the priests there protested that as the person was a householder, the ceremony could not be performed there, but further downstream.

Among those accompanying the Master was Maharishi Raghuvacharya Ji, a renowned and respected yogi, well-known in the area, who is yet continuing life though more than one hundred years old. He stepped forward with surprise and asked,

How can the wife of such a Great Saint be named merely a householder?

Thus reminded, the matter was resolved, and as the custom demands, the bones were then placed in a container and weighted with a large stone. This was then taken to midstream and cast into the river. For some time, instead of sinking they floated on the surface, and then gradually they gently sank out of sight.

Raghuvacharya Ji remarked,

As you all know, the bones of very few people float like flowers on the water like this – those people are called the Great Souls.

All who were present bowed their heads in silent respect.

On the tenth day, the function was completed at Sawan Ashram by a special ceremony of reading the Guru Granth Sahib from beginning to end without ceasing, which takes forty-eight hours. The relatives and some Satsangis were present. Satsang was held on the morning of 12th April and again as the reading finished at 3:30 p.m. Both the Master’s talks were on the theme of life and life hereafter.

That night, when the relatives were sitting in the Master’s house with sorrowful faces, the Master remarked quietly,

It seems that you have lost your mother and I have lost my worldly companion – but she is not dead – she is more alive than before.

[RS Sceptic]

The above account - I must admit it sounds like a made up story.

in particular this part:

On 30th March the Master asked her if she was ready to leave and she replied,

Yes, in three clays.

The Master thought for a moment and then said,

Well, three days, that means 2nd April – I will be very busy that day (due to the occasion of special remembrance of Baba Sawan Singh Ji – the 3rd would be better, in the early afternoon, say 1:30 p.m. – I will be more free then.

Apparently Kirpal Singh could change the date and time of death.

To a different and exact time.

Has anyone here ever heard of anything like this before?

and it is really true?
meaning, did it really happen?

I have never heard anything like this in Radha soami.

has anyone else come across this before?

[Spencer Tepper]

RS Sceptic
In the articles that you say you read is specifically mentioned repetition meditation. One researcher, to paraphrase, had meditators repeating a loving phrase over and over, with similar effects to the other methods.

And their references include repetition approaches such as Benson 's Harvard meditation made famously known as the Relaxation Response.'

Once again your claim is false.

But if you cannot read what is on paper then you make my point for me.. You apparently didn't see it.

For you it was invisible, even though it is right on the printed page.

The world you see outside isn't real either, Sceptic. It's not the world as it is, only the limited parts you wish to see. The fact that it is reported by your eyes does not protect you from your own desire and the effect this has on your own visual perception.

Thank you for proving that this can run so deep people are not even aware of it.

Your imagination and your mind's construction literally paint the world you see.

Meditation research over five decades at Harvard, Yale and other scholarly institutions, and reported by the National Institute of Health, has been shown to be a means to see beyond that imagination which you may be victim to. And is very healthy for you.

Meditation actually supresses distracting thoughts, including day dreaming imaginations, as three of these articles discuss. Again, you didn't see it even though in two articles the researchers specifically confirm with brain scans the day dreaming parts of the mind which meditation suppresses.

Perhaps you should read the articles more closely again, until you can see what is actually there. If the noise of your own day dreaming is so loud that you are having difficulties focusing on what is on the printed page may I suggest you turn down that volume through meditation.

[RS Sceptic]

Spencer,

You said:
In the articles that you say you read is specifically mentioned repetition meditation. One researcher, to paraphrase, had meditators repeating a loving phrase over and over, with similar effects to the other methods.

but, Spencer, the radha soami meditation is not the same as any of those mediations. It doesn't fall into any of those classifications.

But if you cannot read what is on paper then you make my point for me.. You apparently didn't see it.
For you it was invisible, even though it is right on the printed page."

it wasn't invisible, Spencer. It just doesn't apply. You are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

You can google just about anything and come to any conclusion you want to, because you are specifically trying to prove a point and make it true when it is not.

for example, I just googled "dangers of sant mat meditation" and look what came up

I could use these and say I have proof that meditation is actually dangerous, let alone beneficial.

It all depends on what you focus on. If you start with a fixed viewpoint and try to prove it to be true - you will find your proof.

and you will ignore anything that doesn't fit your "truth".

The point is - whatever you believe to be true - you will find your own evidence and proof.

That is why I am a sceptic. because you can believe whatever you want to believe and continue to be deluded all your life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk1qguWMZV0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqQSYEI-kXA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8yTNdozLYc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucHQQ3kB3Cw

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindfulness-wellbeing/201603/dangers-meditation

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/meditation-is-touted-as-a-cure-for-mental-instability-but-can-it-actually-be-bad-for-you-10268291.html

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/3-hidden-dangers-meditation-you-should-know.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/2nB1psRz3JFQpzDh6J2Z6xl/is-mindfulness-meditation-dangerous

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4538240/The-dangers-meditation.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alexa-frey/mindfulness-meditation_b_8084872.html

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2017/05May/Pages/Does-meditation-carry-a-risk-of-harmful-side-effects.aspx

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jan/23/is-mindfulness-making-us-ill

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Can_meditation_have_negative_side_effects

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/25/mental-health-meditation

[Spence Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic:

Sadly, none of your citations are hard scientific study, just anecdotal, and some if it purely odd.

You write that the RS Meditation technique is different from all others.

But that is wrong. The RS practice is largely devotionial and mantra-based.

Not so different from any other practice. Different in the human aspects, certainly. We have a Master. Perhaps different in degree of progress, etc... But quite similar to most schools of meditation that involve focus on any image, and internal repetition of any words.

For purposes of physiological research, no substantive difference.

The resources you cited are not scientific. They are in fact anecdotal.

Now, even drinking water can be harmful if done in the wrong way, or too much, etc...

That's why you should have a good teacher. But that is of no value if your approach is that the meditation is wrong. A teacher has a functional place for anyone who believes their meditation is great, and want to learn how to get more out of it by changing their own approach, method, etc.

You could break a bone learning martial arts in the wrong way, too.

you could get nothing out of it.

But if you conclude martial arts are bad, this would be false.

Nearly anything is harmful done in the wrong way. That would include drinking water and driving a car, even walking, even eating fruits and vegetables - some people can have a reaction to certain foods. One size doesn't fit all. Your Mileage May Vary.

The research indicates your conclusion as a general judgement, is wrong. The research proves that conclusion is false.

Meditation might be wrong for you personally, but overall, meditation is great and has immense health benefits, including, once again, reparing DNA, protecting brain health, reducing distracting thoughts - improving thinking...

Even improving the care professionals provide to patients:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1359105308095966

(Passage meditation is repeating an inspiring sentance internally, eyes closed, over and over again...mantra meditation).

Once again, I cannot claim to understand the basis for your bias, but it certainly stands quite firmly in the face of the entire body of empirical evidence in the sciences which prove meditation, including various forms of mantra meditation, are uniquely healthful.

[RS Sceptic]

spencer,

take one example:

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Can_meditation_have_negative_side_effects

just one at random.

It quotes studies and various sources including journals for it's sources.

yet you reject the validity of these but accept the validity of the studies you agree with

very strange

[Spencer Tepper]

Dear RS Sceptic

Please read the citation you yourself provided again. All but one of the articles referenced discuss how to constructively use meditation in mental health therapy, and detail negative side effects only in that context.

Meditation is not a one-size-fits-all device and should be undertaken under appropriate supervision.

Just like learning to drive a car, fly a plane, or perform surgery.

Meditation has been shown to improve brain mass, repair DNA, even reduce the likelihood of cancer as well as help improve the effectiveness of formal cancer treatments, as just a few of the many and substantially positive effects of meditation, which also include reducing stress, better cognitive performance, and overall improvements in mental and physical health.

The National Institute of Health has an extensive, conservative and balanced review of the research.

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation/overview.htm