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May 13, 2017


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Appreciative Reader,
I don't feel like going into that much detail right now and on here.
If you would personally like the details – please send me an email on
[email protected] and I will reply.
I consider those details irrelevant because every person goes on their own journey and every journey is unique.
The style of the master I went to was very confrontational. There was simply no way anyone could just sit there. He would shout, swear, and generally scare the shit out of the followers. Yet he would be serenely playful and enjoy the whole process.
Those four days I spent with him were the most amazing four days of my life. Things happened there that I cannot even describe. Life long beliefs just disappeared. On the last day, when he threw me out, one lady from the group started to walk out with me. I asked her where she was going. “With you” she said.
“No”, I replied, “the rest of the journey I have to do alone.
I went home. I lay on my bed and just looked at my hand. “Whose hand is this?” I kept wondering. I had no idea what was happening.
I didn't know who this person was laying on the bed. I knew nothing. All my previous knowledge had been negated and all the beliefs were now meaningless. In fact there was no meaning to anything and I had no idea what I was going to do next.
I was lost. No direction, no meaning. No goal. No purpose. I can't really say it was a pleasant experience – but there was a strange kind of peace and let-go that came with it. Like nothing mattered.

To Osho,...I never said I accessed Anami Pad daily. Please don't put words on Hine's Church for seekers to be able to read, and think I am some Wannabe Guru that reaches Sach Khand daily, because I'm not, and I never said that, if so, you misunderstood what I DID say.

I said, I travel thru the Light and Sound areas, and quickly thru the Astral visionary areas, and end up in "The VOID " , where I seem to be stuck, for some time. I even said that Charan must have come to me from Sach Khand, because I didn't think I traveled to Sach Khand to access him. Big difference. He can come to where ever I am, at his pleasure, any time, but I am bound by my inability to be where he is, at my pleasure. The " Void" to me, is more like as Samadhi is explained by Hindus, and how Nirvana is explained by Buddhists. " Awareness with out visions, light or sound. "

As for " Hansa" in Anami Pad, or Sat Lok, I have been told, ( not seen ) by the late Michael Martin, who I used to have PMs with, for years, and we shared inner experiences, that he thought he accessed Sach Khand very often, especially in his later years. He not only had constant access to Charan Singh, but Jesus! He once described Jesus as being 20-30 feet tall, which corraborates my understanding that Astral bodies are able to stretch, shrink, appear or vaporize, as well as shape shift from one Form to another form. I have witnessed Facial forms of Charan Singh morph in to other faces, starting with Turbans, then chaging to faces I never recognized wearing head wraps like Hebrew Prophets wore. I interpreted that I was shown the Lineage of MastersI am initiated in to. The Hansas were described as thousands of floating Bubbles of Light containing different facial forms, and some times, they were all the same faces. So, it appears that, in spite of Advaita teachers saying Sant Mat is a Non- Dual System, the Sant Mat I subscibe to is a Duality, Eternal Philosophy/ Theology that Eternally preserves the individuality of every created soul. That is much more appealing to me than becoming God and ending up as an unconcious cell some where in a formless myst of nothingness some where outside of Space and Time.

Why are some Seekers able to Astral Project, or quite easily be able to either Lucid Dream, yet, others, even long time initiated Mediators, are never able to experience any thing inside?

I think those who have had near death experiences, and have had their Astral Bodies forced out of their physical bodies, at any time past, may be more prone to being able to Astral Project, either voluntarily, or accidently. At eleven years old, I almost dtowned. Very close call. At 22 years old, I was electrocuted, while standing in water on a concrete floor, holding a copper pipe in one hand, and with the other hand, holding on to a steel tank full of water that I couldn't release. There was an electric heater in the tank , a 440 Volt Three Phase Direct Current, that some one had grounded to the copper pipe I had leaned over the tank to open the water valve. I became the Open Circuit . I could not let go of either the pipe or tank. Seversl Co- Workers watched as my hair stood straight up and I was being electrocuted. My life review passed before my eyes in rapid motion, and I knew I was going to die, if I didn't! get released soon. No one dared touch me, as they would also have been fried! One last big tug, and I pulled 20 feet of copper pipe off the wall from their holding brackets, and landed on my back on tne floor in the water. I was in shock, and couldn't speak for several minutes. But I think that was the time my Astral body got loosened up from my physicsl body, allowing me to experience the Astral Projections I did in my early meditation years after I was initiated.

Is ONENESS / Enlightenment of any actual USE? is it beneficial? what are the benefits.

I will address this question.

ONENESS per se, is not useful to the personality. It has even been called the "last nightmare"

It is not what you might think it is. All your ideas and concepts about it are wrong.

Like Goku mentioned that I am supposed to be all knowing.

It is incorrect.
What is true, is that even that which I DID know - is gone. So I am LESS KNOWING.

Even what little POWER I had is gone because I am no longer the doer.

I have not gained anything - rather I have lost everything - permanently.

Is it of any use? Yes - the seeking has gone. I am at peace because nothing is missing. I am complete.

There is no more death because I have already died and disappeared.

This body / mind is still alive - but it is unrelated to me.

Osho you talk quite a lot fir a LESS KNOWING guy.

Jim Writes:-
“I never said I accessed Anami Pad daily. Please don't put words on Hine's Church for seekers to be able to read, and think I am some Wannabe Guru that reaches Sach Khand daily, because I'm not, and I never said that, if so, you misunderstood what I DID say.”
Thank you for clarifying, Jim. I know you wrote of various visions and meeting Charan Singh. I must have extrapolated beyond that. I apologize.
As for " Hansa" in Anami Pad, or Sat Lok, I have been told, ( not seen ) by the late Michael Martin, who I used to have PMs with, for years, and we shared inner experiences, that he thought he accessed Sach Khand very often, especially in his later years. He not only had constant access to Charan Singh, but Jesus! He once described Jesus as being 20-30 feet tall, which corraborates my understanding that Astral bodies are able to stretch, shrink, appear or vaporize, as well as shape shift from one Form to another form. I have witnessed Facial forms of Charan Singh morph in to other faces, starting with Turbans, then chaging to faces I never recognized wearing head wraps like Hebrew Prophets wore. I interpreted that I was shown the Lineage of MastersI am initiated in to.
Sach khand – the word Sach means TRUE – The TRUE DESH – and true means forever, changeless and formless. I really don't get how form can exist in the formless eternal. Eternal can only be formless – or else it will not be formless. They are mutually exclusive.
Everything in time and space is transitory and therefore unreal
sach khand is within time and space
therefore sach khand is transitory and unreal.
The is simple logic:
All “A” is “B”
Sach Khand is A
therefore Sach Khand is also B

(Where “A” is TIME and SPACE
and B is “Transitory and Unreal”)
The conclusion is unavoidable.

The Hansas were described as thousands of floating Bubbles of Light containing different facial forms, and some times, they were all the same faces. So, it appears that, in spite of Advaita teachers saying Sant Mat is a Non- Dual System, the Sant Mat I subscibe to is a Duality, Eternal Philosophy/ Theology that Eternally preserves the individuality of every created soul. That is much more appealing to me than becoming God and ending up as an unconcious cell some where in a formless myst of nothingness some where outside of Space and Time.
You are correct. This is definitely DUALITY.
No advaita teacher says anything about the sant mat teachings – it is specifically me (Osho Robbins) who is saying that Sach Khand, by definition, must be NON-DUAL if it is to be eternal and real.
I agree that the idea you put forward of a duality based individuality that is also eternal is attractive – however, no matter how attractive it is – it is impossible to be true.
By definition, that which is eternal cannot contain form.
And anything with form cannot be eternal. It has to end. Because everything within time and space ends.
So the thing you describe is attractive but not possible.
Why are some Seekers able to Astral Project, or quite easily be able to either Lucid Dream, yet, others, even long time initiated Mediators, are never able to experience any thing inside?
Why indeed. There are specific techniques to astral projection and lucid dreaming that can be used to practice it. RSSB does not give you those specific techniques and does not tell you that this is astral projection. In fact if asked, they will probably deny it is astral projection.
The specific techniques of meditation given in initiation are not every effective for astral projection. There are other far more effective techniques. Even devices (like REM detection devices that wake you up on detecting REM). If RSSB was a science – they would focus on what works to get those experiences.
At eleven years old, I almost drowned. Very close call. At 22 years old, I was electrocuted. I think that was the time my Astral body got loosened up from my physical body, allowing me to experience the Astral Projections I did in my early meditation years after I was initiated.
Quite possibly. But before everyone goes out and gets electrocuted, check out some of the other ways to astral project.

Karl writes:
"Osho you talk quite a lot for a LESS KNOWING guy."

You have missed the whole meaning.

Osho wrote (talked) about 1000 books, and said he knew nothing.

You don't understand the context of NOT KNOWING.
It has a specific meaning - nothing to do with the knowing you refer to,

An enlightened person can know how to drive a car, write a book, program computers, run a business. All those things require knowledge in the context you use it. That has nothing to do with it. Otherwise enlightened people would instantly become dysfunctional and unable to talk.

That is not the knowledge we are talking about.

We are talking about knowing in a different context.
Like we could say, I know "I am this person and I am a RSSB follower and I know if I meditate for three years, I will reach Sach Khand. I know Gurinder is a true master"

Knowing things that are not true - but we believe they are. concepts, which we mistake for truth. Like the title of the book "Never mistake a memo for reality"

It's not what you don't know, but what you KNOW that just ain't SO, that gets you into trouble"

Thinking you know things that you don't know. mistaking belief for truth.

So your statement is nonsensical. Nothing personal, I am just pointing this out, and writing even more.

How easy you say i dont understand. What a wisdom of yours.

I have not said that you don't understand at all. I have shown it.
There is nothing to be offended about.

You made a statement, and I replied.
If you have anything more of substance to add it, you are most welcome.

Just writing, "What a wisdom of yours" is" is nonsensical.

Quote Osho...
You don't understand the context of NOT KNOWING

...Karl....You did say

Here is something Rajneesh said:
"A master should not be asked why. If you ask the master why, you have not accepted him as the master. Then your relationship remains of reason. And reason cannot relate with a master. It is a deep trust, the relationship is of love and trust. If he says it, then it must be so, then there must be something in it. And there was something in it."
Osho, can you explain what the other Osho meant?
Oh and are you sure that you don't have a belief that " There can't any form beyond time and space"?
You haven't seen it all. So, things you haven't seen can't be called false.
Why are you using your mind to present arguments about something that can't be understood using the mind?
What is your kind of enlightenment? It's giving up. And making yourself believe that you've achieved all there is to be achieved. I guess that's why Kabir couldn't help Bharma.

The one who returns(Mirdad), collects and burns all the shadows in the Sun. Have you read his book?

You called me a person with too many concepts. Aren't you a minimalist when it comes to keeping concepts! But the concepts you have, you hold them very dear to you.
I never said that you are supposed to know everything. And you didn't had to tell me that you aren't enlightened according to me.

I don't care about the experiences people have had and shared over here. I don't think they are any real, for a person who shares them should've had a waking up experience. The experience is experienced to be much more real than the world. And people having lucid dreams or hallucinations have less awareness or consciousness than normal state.
True experiences occur in a state of much higher awareness. And hence, they eliminate any reason to share them with others.

Quote Osho Robbins:
Appreciative Reader,
I don't feel like going into that much detail right now and on here.
If you would personally like the details – please send me an email on
[email protected] and I will reply.
I consider those details irrelevant because every person goes on their own journey and every journey is unique.
The style of the master I went to was very confrontational. There was simply no way anyone could just sit there. He would shout, swear, and generally scare the shit out of the followers. Yet he would be serenely playful and enjoy the whole process.
Those four days I spent with him were the most amazing four days of my life. Things happened there that I cannot even describe. Life long beliefs just disappeared. On the last day, when he threw me out, one lady from the group started to walk out with me. I asked her where she was going. “With you” she said.
“No”, I replied, “the rest of the journey I have to do alone.
I went home. I lay on my bed and just looked at my hand. “Whose hand is this?” I kept wondering. I had no idea what was happening.
I didn't know who this person was laying on the bed. I knew nothing. All my previous knowledge had been negated and all the beliefs were now meaningless. In fact there was no meaning to anything and I had no idea what I was going to do next.
I was lost. No direction, no meaning. No goal. No purpose. I can't really say it was a pleasant experience – but there was a strange kind of peace and let-go that came with it. Like nothing mattered.


I am very intrigued by this disinclination of yours to engage with me. You have spent God alone knows how many hours here writing reams upon reams of doctrinaire Zen and doctrinaire Advaitic comments, and yet every time you are invited to speak in your own words and without using any obfuscating jargon, you “don’t feel like going into it”.

You want me to write to you again? What the **** for? Just read my last comment to you, the one from me (“Appreciative Reader”), on the previous page of this Comments section, the comment that is posted there on June 4, 2017, at 7:21 AM. That comment is already in the form of a letter/email to you. Easy enough to find, you can’t miss it! Consider it already sent, then, that email that you now ask me for! And really, I don’t think it is physically possible to be any more patient with you, or to guide you any more closely towards revealing anything you may actually have to reveal. That you nevertheless reveal nothing is, I cannot help concluding, is because you have nothing to reveal in the first place. (And this has nothing to do with language being unable to convey some ineffable intuition : I am talking about your immediate withdrawal each and every time you are asked for straight honest answers, as contrasted with your copious verbiage when making Zen-ic/Advaitic doctrinaire comments.)

You seem to have created a pseudonymous email id for just these kinds of discussions. I haven’t, I’m afraid. And I don’t feel comfortable sharing my personal information with you, as I automatically would end up doing if I email you from my personal email id. I cannot fathom this sudden coyness, this sudden disinclination for public commenting from you, you who’ve right here been commenting so very copiously (and this curious reticence of yours as regards public comments seems to pop up every time direct questions are asked, and obfuscation-free answers sought). After all, nothing stops you from masking personal details when talking of personal situations (or even leaving out the very personal bits altogether).

Nevertheless, if as you say you really do want to answer me but prefer to reply privately to me and to me alone, well then please refer my comment posted in the previous page on June 4, 2017 at 07:21 AM (you know which one I mean, the only one on here in letter/email format), and just email your response to Brian, with a request to him to email it on to me.


Brian, if you’ve been following this exchange between Osho Robbins and me : Look, I absolutely HATE requesting you to act like some kind of ******* post-office, but if you’ve read this sequence of comments, you’ll see that there seems no other way out! In the extremely unlikely event that Osho Robbins does write to me, answering my queries lucidly and honestly, and sends that reply to your email id, then would you please forward it to my email (without, naturally, revealing my id to him)? Sorry for the trouble, Brian, and thanks!


Osho Robbins, in that comment of yours that I’ve copied/quoted above, you do describe your workshop cursorily, and the after-effects of your alleged nothingness realization (that hand thing while lying on your bed), and also (in your subsequent comment addressed to me) some of your thoughts on whether this is any use at all ; and my first impulse on reading this was to try to tease some more sense out of these sporadic and disjointed (but nevertheless potentially suggestive) thoughts with some follow-up questions, but really I don’t see any point in my any wasting any more time on this particular exchange with you if you steadfastly and repeatedly refuse to engage honestly with me, despite my asking you, politely and clearly, so many times.

You cannot be unfamiliar with standard chat-room reply format. One quotes the questions asked, in full, and then below that quote, one types one’s response. One repeats this process for every question asked. This is a simple concept, and easy enough to do. I directly asked you to do this in that last comment of mine (posted here on June 4 at 07:21 AM, in letter/email format) and I ask again : just copy each question (in that letter-format comment of mine), in full, without leaving anything out, and below that write your answer. Repeat with the next portion, the next question. I don’t see what the problem is in doing that?

Heck, you do that very same thing when you want to spout Advaitic/Zen-ic dogma ! You take others’ comments and do exactly that with them. Yet when you are directly asked to do this without using dogma, without using doctrine, without using obfuscating jargon, and using only your own words in an honest straightforward manner, you suddenly “don’t feel like it” any more?

I have had enough of this ******* trolling of yours! If even now you wish to engage with this issue and are interested in talking clearly about your realization, then just look that last comment of mine (referenced more than once in this comment itself, the one in letter/email format), and reply to it either directly on here via further comment, or else privately to me via Brian’s email. Or, of course, not, just as you please.

Over and out.

Appreciative reader,
I was somewhat amused and surprised at your last comment.

I do whatever I feel like. I reply to someone if I feel like it at the time.

If I don't then I won't reply.

You cannot demand a reply.

I am merely enjoying the moment here.
I will stop commenting at any time.

I was going to send you a detailed reply.

I could also post it on here.

It's no big deal either way.

And the big issue you created in your mind about revealing your email is a non issue.

You just go to Hotmail or Gmail and press on create account
and create a new email. Then delete it once finished.

That was so easy.

Anyway don't bother now because I will not reply.

You act as if I owe you a reply.

I don't.

Appreciative reader wrote
" I am very intrigued by this disinclination of yours to engage with me. "

There wasn't one. I simply was going to reply in detail to you.

One on one. That's why I was going to do it by email. So we could go back and forth as much as we pleased.

I have no idea why you went off the deep end as if you are entitled to a reply
And the pattern you see doesn't exist. I have hardly ever offered to continue a discussion by email with anyone before. So don't know where you got that from.
I gave the email to manjit because he is a personal friend.


So Sad Charan s first 4 lines of EVERY Satsang are completely forgotten here.
The whole RSSB Path is about Happiness and LOVE ( Hardly ever ever mentioned here )
google Love+hinessight.blogs.com

Charan :
Why are people unhappy > Because they are attached to perishable things
and in constant fear for the moment it will taken away from them
Attach yourself to a sweet attractive eternal Item which is the Sound of Your Soul above your Eyes ( Soul : I was so free to add)

In This delicious Reverberation, you can re-place your Self , just INTO it
and this Elixer will let you forget all temporal desires

a collateral secondary delight is that you are experiencing that You are that Indestructible eternal phenomenon and will never die
You are invulnerable forever


as for me >< advaita :
the way is as delicious as is the Goal (as some seem to need a target :-) )
my slogan is :
"It take two to dance the Tango"
My sweet Guide ( He is also that Music ) and me


no humble-fixation today :-)

Here is something Rajneesh said:
"A master should not be asked why. If you ask the master why, you have not accepted him as the master. Then your relationship remains of reason. And reason cannot relate with a master. It is a deep trust, the relationship is of love and trust. If he says it, then it must be so, then there must be something in it. And there was something in it."
Osho, can you explain what the other Osho meant?

He is speaking of the connection between a Master and a disciple. It is a unique connection. Without that connection it is impossible to be with a master.
It is not that he cannot answer the “Why” question, He can. However those who are on his path connect at a deeper level, which is beyond the mind. That is why he can contradict his own statement and it makes no difference. They understand what he is saying because they connect. He calls it communion.
He makes a clear distinction between a “Master” and a “Teacher”. A teacher is simply imparting information. A Master is simply Being. He doesn’t care about what he says or how. The words are irrelevant. What is important is the state of communion and deep trust between the master and the disciple. This communion and deep trust is irrelevant in the case of teacher and student, because only information is being given.

“Oh and are you sure that you don't have a belief that " There can't any form beyond time and space"?

The statement that form cannot exist if there is no time and space is not a belief. Form means it has a boundary (a beginning and an end). And that means space is needed.

“You haven't seen it all.” So, things you haven't seen can't be called false.
Why are you using your mind to present arguments about something that can't be understood using the mind?

Osho: but this is something that clearly can be understood using the mind.

What is your kind of enlightenment? It's giving up. And making yourself believe that you've achieved all there is to be achieved. I guess that's why Kabir couldn't help Bharma.

Osho: I am not “making” myself believe anything at all. That is your interpretation because you only believe, hence you project that state onto others.

The one who returns(Mirdad), collects and burns all the shadows in the Sun. Have you read his book?

A long time ago. Can’t comment unless I read it again.

You called me a person with too many concepts. Aren't you a minimalist when it comes to keeping concepts! But the concepts you have, you hold them very dear to you.

Osho: What concepts are you referring to? Please explain.

I never said that you are supposed to know everything.

What you wrote was: “Do enlightened people need to guess?”
Implying that I don’t need to guess. Why not? Because I am supposed to know? Is that not what you meant? Or have I guesses wrong again?

I don't care about the experiences people have had and shared over here. I don't think they are any real, for a person who shares them should've had a waking up experience. The experience is experienced to be much more real than the world. And people having lucid dreams or hallucinations have less awareness or consciousness than normal state.
True experiences occur in a state of much higher awareness. And hence, they eliminate any reason to share them with others.

Osho: People who meditate have their eyes closed and what they experience is with eyes closed. Now you can say it is a superconscious state. However, that is just something you have read. Have you had any such experience that you can verify is a superconscious state?
Perhaps Jim can help out here.

Osho, Goko,....I have posted on different forums, over the years since 1988, sharing inner experience phenomenon, but looking back, other than what I have shared here recently, my experiences prior to reaching the " Void" as I do most of the time, at anout 45 minutes in, the experiences are quite repetitious of the sign posts Sawan Singh said to expect, in his meditation lesson he shared in his Book, " Spiritual Gems." But the " Star" he mentions,....for me, always looks more like a swirling silver white Vortex, with a tiny black center, that suddenly appears at the Third Eye focus, bobs up and down, left to right, right to left, challenging me to chase it! But once it is focused, or stabilized and quits moving, then....."i" am either sucked in to the black hole in it, or,....or, it moved towards me and swallows "me" up! Then, usually "i" end up in the Void. Presently, I believe this swirling Vortex of Light is most likely, my Higher Soul Self, my Guide, from which " Jim " has projected from , or the personality that has taken santuary in Jim's changing, impermanant physical body. Where the Master gets in to this scenero, is that He operates from his own Higher Soul Self, and has figured out how to travel most of the Spiritual Planes, where I am still inable to do, as Jim. But, I continue to practice. The following is on my blog, which I posted in Lane's RSS forum many years ago, which most of the old members still posting and lurking here, have seen before. But in case you and Goko have not, hete it is again.

The following is a post I shared on a Meditation site in 2003 about a peak Meditation experience I had, when I first started experimenting with meditation. I have decided to post it here, so I may access it before I forget it altogether. Of course, there are many methods and paths that teach students how to leave their material bodies and Astral travel, as the Apostle Paul and most of the old Testament Prophets did. My way was/is unorthodox, and was very time consuming, but proved to me that "I" am not bound to my physical body and have access to other dimensions when ever I choose to put in the time and effort to have a change of scenery, so to speak! I was never into Drugs at any time, other than alcohol, which I gave up altogether at age 35 ., Without further explanation, ....for now, here it is, just as I shared it in 2003.

Now, for what I found and did not find, in my Space Cadet tours:
As stated before, I never saw any light nor heard any sound before initiation. At initiation, and being free of flesh foods for 90 days, alcohol and drugs for 10 years, I did see a few small "sparks" of light and did hear some "conch or sea shell" sounds when Thakar stuck his thumb in my ear!

After I got home and started to practice on my own, using the simran and Bajan technique, I saw flashes of light that lasted longer, and heard sound that was louder. I took my lessons from Sawan's book, "Spiritual Gems." I spent two years meditating under thakar's regime, both home and with others at his meetings, but was never able to get any further then the flashes of light nor hear any sound without plugging my ears with my thumbs. Many of Thakar's desciples carried around "bajan sticks" everywhere with them. It was a stick shaped like a cross or tee about 3 ft. high. you could sit down in a chair and put or rest your arms on the cross at the top of the stick, and plug your ears with your thumbs for long periods, without exhausting your arms. It seems not very many meditators I saw in Thakar's group spent much time in bajan. they mostly used the sticks, or just sat in chairs plugging their ears, and many used real ear plugs. I tried all of the above, but never got beyond the flashes of light, nor conch sound only when the ears were plugged. So, boredom sat in after a couple of years, and I was either ready to jump the fence to greener pastures, or quit, altogether. I talked to many Kirpal initiates who had come to Thakar, and most of them were on the same experience level as I, i.e. bored!! I can't ever remember meeting Thakar on the inside. During my early attempts at meditation, I did see many phantom like people I didn't recognize, and even demon like creatures who taunted me! I also felt like I was always off balance, or was ready to lift off my meditation chair, but never really did. I would seem to fall asleep, and my head would fall forward onto my chest, and I would wake up choking or gasping for air, as my wind pipe would be cut off. I read where a master tied his hair to a tree, so his head would stay up, but, I am bald, so that wouldn't work for me! So, I tilted my recliner chair I was meditating in just back far enough, so that my head would not fall on my chest, but my spine would stay straight. But, as XXXXX testified about her meditation experiences, there was mostly a lot of snoring. At the satsang meeting, we would meditate as a group, and there would be many snoring! so, doubts began to set in for me, and I started to explore new possibilities. I read Darshan Singh's books, went to a couple of his meetings. I didn't like his looks, and his talks never got a hook in me. I read Ajib Singh's books, and liked them, and sent for his tapes. He didn't speak English, so needed an interpreter, and I just couldn't feel any heart strings pulling me in his direction. As I said, I was reading Agra books, and enjoyed them, but RSSB books really moved my soul the most! I began to feel I wanted to find how I could get initiation from Charan. ( Before I forget, when I finally did get initiated by Roland DeVries ( Roland was an Ex Penticostal Preacher with a Th.D. Degree from Ashbury Theological Seminary, so a Brother of my own Ilk) by proxy for Charon, I was first surprised that the simran was the same, but he went into more detail about the bajan posture. The reading of the initiation ceremony from charan was moving and interesting for me, but in all, I was disappointed in the simplicity of the initiation itself, as it seemed to be just a carbon copy of Thakar's and I had already wasted two years using that method without any significant or satisfying results. I left there actually not very encouraged that I would get any more then I already had.

I went home and started the same old meditation routine, but just changed my visualization from Thakar to Charan. It was difficult to make the transition at first, because I had seen Thakar many times in person, and even had been laser beam zapped by him, but had never seen Charan in person. But, I bought his videos at satsang, and every cassette tape that was available and began to view the tapes. The transition began to really take a hold on me, and after listening to hundreds of his tapes with all the usual Q & A sessions in India, I became an "Arm Chair Desciple." I can't really say I fell in love with Charan, long distance, because he had already left the body before we had a chance to establish any real relationship such as most of you core satsangees had with him, but I did really develope a very strong fondness for him. ( I will try and describe my present feeling for him and reasons in a later post.)

I must say, after what I considered the boring initiation by Roland DeVries,( I have always wondered if he reads these posts, or if he might even be an Xer or at least a Lurker on the fence?) I must confess my meditation expierience took off in leeps and bounds as I applied the time sitting. I religiously sat from 4:30 AM until 7:00 AM for seven years. My job schedule allowed me the liberty of doing so, but, I changed jobs, and could no longer keep any definite schedule, and until now, my meditations were hit and miss, 30 min. to an hour here and there.

But, I progressed to large flases of light, even like lighning bolts, as Sawan said would happen. I first saw bright light, bright as the sun, a golden color. Then, beyond the sun, I saw a silvery white sphere, that looked like the moon, Sawan said that would be there. Please note, I never saw everything all at once, and it took about five years before I progressed past the moon. Then, after the moon, I saw what I think Sawan refered to as The Star. For me, the star was not 5 pointed, but it actually looked like a glittering diamond, to a silvery white glittering lotus flower. There was a black center in the star, and I fought to keep my focus on the center looking at the black hole. Suddenly, either the star started moving towards me real fast, or I started to be sucked into the vortex of the black hole in the star. I don't know which, to this day. But, with a lot of practice, I finally was sucked through the center of the star, and that's when the real experiences began! Don't ask me what plane of level or realm I was on, I just don't know.

But, after I broke through the "Black Hole" of the Lotus, I seemed to be in outer space, but the sky was a very bright blue, more blue then any blue sky I have ever experienced. Plus, I was traveling at a very high rate of speed. I felt like I was still sitting in the meditation position, and like I was on a magic carpet. I fought to maintain my balance as it felt like I kept slipping off the carpet and would turn on my side or up side down. I kept focusing right at the center but, was able to see a round planet of some type on my left far ahead, and also another larger planet, (round) on my right, far ahead of me. I was moving so fast, that I actually felt (or seemed to) feel the wind in my face and my hair, (what little I had left) blowing in the wind. When the speed increased to WARP speed, I started to panic, and looked back from where I came from, and as God is my witness, I actually saw the earth back there with all the water and land masses, just like we see from the space shots. I really panicked, then, and.......,ZAPP! I woke up back in by body, or back from the space cadet trip, at least. Now, if all those experiences were the results of just brain neurons firing, I sure seemed to have a lot of input and control on the methodology of having taken the trip. This was my peak experience, and I only went that far out once. But, I spent many more years trying to get there and beyond, with out the success again. I was able to (and am still able) to get to the star, but am never allowed to go through the black hole, or portal again. ( Guess after giving away my experience to ya'll, I won't even see any more flashes or specks of light, but, I'm OK with that, too.)

I also had many OBEs, and went through walls, ceilings, through the roof, and rode my magic carpet over the houses in my neighborhood. It seemed I always kept picking up speed to WARP until I panicked, and ZAPP! I landed back in my body in my meditation chair with a noticeable THUD.

Well, that's the high lights of my meditation experiences, for what ever its worth to the club. I trust I may also be put into the "Loony" category by some here, along with other past posters who chose to bare more of their experiences than some are ready to hear, but, that's OK. As they say, "different strokes for different folks."

I must say, before I move on, none of these past experiences presently make me feel any more spiritual nor stroke my ego. I only witness that they happened to me, and I am still able to get at least to the star, using the RSSB technique described by Sawan in "Spiritual Gems." Will it save me from The Wheel of 84?" You be the judge.

Eternal Flame

To Appreciative Reader

I must admit, that the way you perceive the response from a commenter is quite appreciable and the way you ask for the details you seek is quite inviting.
And your comments themselves are quite well formed and readable. Thanks for your contribution to this ever growing encyclopedia of the accounts of spiritual struggle which Brian has beautifully named as Church of the Churchless - there couldn't be a better name to it.

AR: "On small quibble/question... "

Well, honestly, I do not know much about the chakras and I have not yet witnessed the chakras by visual experience. And I think that's a very advanced stage and a recognizable inner height when you can really introspect (by turning back and looking at yourself) your own construction and the chakras clearly. Why I mentioned about Crown is because there's where I feel the ultra sensations (both at the time of inexplicable experiences and when at the feet of my Master).

Just to repeat myself here again, the experiences I experience takes a great deal of effort, as in, a plentiful of time spent in the meditation, because I am not a good meditator who sincerely follows a schedule and do it without a break of a day - I actually consider myself a pretty bad meditator and it's mostly a mix of some good sessions for a week long then some times just spending 5 minutes a day for another 2-3 weeks and then again some good sessions. And I have plethora of reasons for myself to justify the gaps - which are all bad I know - but yeah, this is my current state.

Back to the point, the experiences I experience takes a great deal of effort, as in, a plentiful of time spent in the meditation and reaching the state of shortened breath - whereas the same level of experience and even much much grand and subtle at same time with I would say 100x frequency happens when I am at the feet of my Master during HIS satsang - and it takes no effort - simply no effort - just HIS presence starts it all.

About Tantric procedures and Kundalini, I do not have much insights into those, I have read various texts on it a bit early in my life but none of them struck a chord in my heart. By HIS grace, I was born to a Radha Soami family and was very much keen on getting initiated in very early life, I spent quite a few years in just waiting to be 25 and apply for the same.
At the same time I was very much interested in reading everything related to the subtle worlds and this I did spend quite a bit of time in reading whatever I had access to.

I maybe totally wrong and I do not intend to hurt the sentiments of anyone who is following this, but in my opinion the reach of Tantric and Kundalini procedures are way below as compared to the Sant Mat (or the equivalent path if someone wants to name it differently).
Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj have explained the Kundalini procedures and it's achievements at length in HIS discourses which I read in the books' series known as "SantMat Prakash" (in Hindi) - I don't remember it's name in the english language (if you want I can inquire and tell you). It's basically an amazing collection of the text literally based on HIS discourses as recorded on paper by various disciples.

Also, when we read the Kundalini procedures that it starts from the Root Chakra and goes all the way to Crown Chakra and comes back to merge in the Root, it appears similar to the Surat Shabd Yog however, it's not to my perception.
In fact many masters of Kundalini do really believe that it's exactly what Surat Shabd Yog is but really it isn't. The book available with the name "Surat Shabd Yog" was actually written by a Kundalini practitioner and what that guru is explaining in the book is not SSY but actually Kundalini awakening.

But again, to mention, this is all my bookish knowledge and understanding based on the various texts on the topic of Kundalini as I have not done any experiment myself on it - because I never get any attraction in these subjects when I compared these with the Sant Mat. And these interpretations may sound as absurd as the comments of manjit sounded to me.

Having said that, there is no doubt that there can be more than one True Living Master on the planet at the same time.
At once place, Sawan Singh Maharaj Ji even mentioned that it's also true that a True Master comes on earth to take back only one soul - and that Master will not be known to any other person on the planet as the True Master but only to that soul who was HIS responsibility.

So, I think it will be wrong to say that there are no other True Masters present at this moment on earth, there maybe. But, I surely know that Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj is surely the current True Living Master.

To Majit

Thanks for adding your experience for others to read through. That was a great post to read actually.

However, I do not agree with your critical comments on my experiences - and I don't want to add much to that because it's all your perception and everyone has his own perception.

manjit: "You're making progress! If only you had somebody competent to guide you through those experiences, because for sure RS is woefully inadequate to guide in comparison to Daoism and Buddhism!"

You mentioned that you are not a follower of RS and neither initiated by Babaji - your above comment is as vague as it can be and doesn't hold any value for the fact that there are many who by HIS grace know what HE is and that Anami Purush is giving satsang during all these years via RSSB at Beas in the form of Babaji Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj.

You have no idea what is running through the inner worlds of somebody else, but you are giving your verdicts on other's experiences based on your perceptions and not based on your own real matching experiences.

Which might also be good from your standpoint because you decided and accepted your own perception and that will sound best to you and that is the way you decided to go and proceed with, just that majority of your interpretation and comments are false, bookish and at times manipulated to suit your own intellect and doesn't hold good grounds.

However, it doesn't matter to me how you perceive and interprets it - surely it will matter to you.

To Jim

I did read this text earlier in one of the posts about your magic rug experiences and I am reading it again and it's just as joyful to read it again as the first time. Thanks so much for sharing it. I have bookmarked it this time :)

Lots of love to everyone.

Jim Sutherland,
are you of the opinion that what you had and what other sant mat meditators experience is Astral Projection, or something different?

If it is astral projection, there are specific techniques that are far more effective.

Here is one link I just found about astral projection and what it is like. Does this match your experience?


here is another link showing how to master the process


also came across this by kirpal singh about the soul's journey


then came across this about the lower astral plane

It the sant mat path leads to astral projection, there are many far more
scientific techniques to get that result.

there are even lucid dreaming devices that detect REM and flash lights at the appropriate time to gently awaken the dreamer so he just get enough awareness to witness the dream and then step into it and direct the dream.

Here's the point about the experiences of sant mat followers.

I had them also when I used to meditate.

The light and sound it no big deal. Dave Lane in his experiment has proven that it's no big deal. And I know RSSB followers who have never even seen light.

The more profound experiences of leaving the body and going to the astral and higher regions: the question is what is actuallu happening?

If it is astral projection, then why have all the dogma? Just use the most effective techniques.

After all, Jim, you are pretty much on your own. There is no real guidance as the guru is pretty much inaccessible.

You could argue that the inner guru can give guidance, but how do you know it is real?

I had a question back in the days when i was following this path, and I used to ask all the gurus I went to and none could answer.

My question was this:
IF (and it's a big if) the radiant form gives guidance and the disciple can ask any question and get the answer from the radiant form which really is the guru, then.....
How come there are so many successors of Kirpal? and they are not friends.
So, if Thakar Singh, to take one example, had the radiant form of the master within him, and it guided him, then surely the radiant (inner) guru will say to Thakar, "Listen, Kiddo, you're not there yet, stop being a false master and just do some more meditation" And it could also tell him who the real master was.

But this doesn't happen.

So my question was, if there are so many people claiming to be successors, the radiant form MUST guide them and stop them being fake masters.

Darshan said "They don't even get to the radiant form" to which I replied, that if that is the case, then they must know 100% that they are fake because if you dont even get to the radiant form, how can you be a master?

So one thing is certain; If the radiant form is really the master - and if more than one person is claiming successorship, then the inner form should be able to stop this from happening. Or if they are both masters, they why the enmity between them? They would have harmonious relationships, not have court cases running against each other.

if a person doesn't even have the radiant form, then he knows he is a fake.

If he does have the radiant form - it can't the real because it would then stop the fake one from acting as a master.

anyone got any ideas?

To Osho: Lots of questions,....that I have no answers for. The early Astral Projection experiences I had, were early meditation experiences, most likely, carry overed from my ten years study and projection exercises with Rosicrucians, AMORC.

Truthfully, I think OBEs and APs are just Mind Candy, to convince Soul Travelers that they, ( we) really are, Spiritual Beings, having human experiences in a physical body. Once we become convinced we are souls, wrapped in minds, using Causal, Astral, and physical forms, then we no longer need those childish experiences. ( per Manjit de illusion) I rarelly have them any more, during meditation. If and when I do, I no longer linger there, but pass thru quickly.

I think Sant Mat Meditation Technique keeps us out of the body, below the eyes, but keeps us in the head above the Third Eye, but does not release or project thru the Crown Chakra to outer space like I did in that Space Cadet Launch. That was an authentic Astral Projection, as taught by the Monroe Institute, in Virginia, founded by the late Bill Monroe who wrote the Bible on Out of Body Experiences. They use Meditation in closed chambers using Sound Audio called Hemi Synch. The Internet has hundreds of the Audios on youtube. They have a closed group like this one, called TMI interested OBErs may join. There are authentic stories of those doing almost nightly Astral Projections. Here is the Link.


Sant Mat Meditation does NOT induce Astral Projections, unless they happen by accident. Surat Shabd Yoga is not like these exercises, but they do some times happen, as even Kundalini does.

As for being guided inside by the Master's Radiant Form, all I reported, was my single clear, audable visit, by Charan Singh , instructing me that my body needed Asprin. I even argued with him, but he listened, then told me to just use less. What more do I need to hear from him that I don't already know, that he already spent 40 years sharing, most of it on Audio, and in his Books? Its all there.

As for all the other master questions, I have no answers, mostly, because they are not important enough for me to research. Exers who are always looking to substanciate their excuses for not keeping the Vows or trying to live as they promised to do when accepted for Initiation, are those always asking these kinds of questions that have no answers.

You asked, ......kind of sarcastic wise what " Hansas" are. In a prior post, I offered an answer that you missed, because you never commented. I think the Hansas SEEN in Sach Khand, by souls reaching, or entering there, are HIGHER SOUL SELVES, that are Bubbles, or Spheres containing all the past life personalities of each, individual created soul. They include every single completed Sant Mat Master, as well as other Masters, since the Dawn of Creation.

I came across this youtube video of kirpal
contains lots of quotes
at 15:05 the quote is
"The Master's only purpose in incarnating is to shower grace on us."

When people ask Gurider for "Grace" He says "You already have grace"

Jim, How do you view "Grace"?

you are of the opinion that the inner experiences (if they have any) of RSSB followers are NOT astral projection. Is that correct?

When you met Charan Singh - was that not his astral form?

And when a disciple leaves his body and sees the radiant form - does that not happen on the astral? And then the teachings say the master will take the disciple into further regions.

How would that be different from an astral projection on the astral plane.

Do you have any experience of going beyond the astral onto further regions?

I have met people who claim to have gone to Sach Khand. However they speak of things they see there and seeing the guru there.

If we accept the premise that real = formless then this should not be possible

To Osho: If you don't believe any Master has answers to your questions,....did you ever consider, you might be asking the wrong questions. If you no longer meditate, listening to Shabd, do you ever Pray, asking for answers? If do, WHO are you expecting to answer you?

You said David Lane proved that any one can see light and hear sound, no big deal. If so, why didn't he quit meditating, as you did? Why does he continue to waste his precious time still doing the Sant Mat Meditation?

I sorted out why I still do it, and tried to explain why, on my blog. Here is where I was a few years ago:

WE all ask questions when we either pray, or meditate, or contemplate, or just plain day dream. But, WHO answers our questions, when we think we receive answers, and if we direct our questions to any specific character, spirit, master, or whom ever, how can we be certain we are not just imagining any answers we think we receive?

Christians pray to Jesus, Mary, or Saints, depending on what Denomination they happen to belong to. Many believe they have a direct link, or private hot line to Jesus, or the Father, or The Holy Spirit.

Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, as well as all other religious sects also believe they receive their answers from their chosen masters, deities, saints, etc. But, do they really, and if so, are the answers they receive reliable?

Even Atheists, and Materialists ask and receive answers from ???? But, are the answers reliable, and how can they be proven to be accurate?

All humans have faith in some one, or some thing, or they could not survive in any society. WE all claim to be members of some thing, be it Nationalism, Politics, religion, science, race, etc.

But, what about when we die, or leave our material bodies, to discover what ever we "think" will be waiting for us? Or, not discover, if there is nothing in the spirit realm outside materialism to discover?

Religious Scholars are able to create un-ending Dogmas from any "Holy Book", such as the Christian Bible, or numerous other Holy Books from other religious sects. But, if any of these Dogmas are really holy, why haven't even a single one of them caused all killing and wars to cease? Why is killing other species, lower on the food chain, not been replaced with a non-lethal method of survival in material bodies with out killing and eating lower species, depending on where they happen to incarnate on the food chain on planet earth?

What if we, as humans, suddenly found our selves in the food chain, raised and dominated by some species more intelligent and dominant than our selves, and we suddenly became food for that species, as cattle , fowl, fish, are for we humans?

Of course, there have been answers offered to these hard questions in many "Holy Books", but, outside of India, and a few Asian counties, who pays attention to writings that claim ALL killing is Karma creating, including killing other species to consume, eat, and use as slaves, or to violate as non-living objects? Unless one believes at all in karma, and reincarnation, then, who cares if all non humans are continued to be exploited by humans?

If visitors have read any of my Blog, it can be easily seen, that I have pondered most questions regarding religions, metaphysics, etc. But, there comes a time, when one must cut to the chase, and decide for oneself, what one REALLY believes enough in, to put his/her faith into letting it all hang out, so to speak, considering that since the Bible grants a normal believer 70 years in a human body, average, then, I am already a couple of years into my Bonus years! So, its time for me to sort out what I say, from what I believe, to what I put my faith in, to what I DO. As I read the Obituaries daily, and witness my relatives, friends, and acquaintances, or even strangers pass on, or leave their human bodies, it becomes more real than reading some Holy Book, and picking one of the millions of Dogmas argued about since writing became available, and putting all faith in one or more.

For me, personally, I have traveled the religious "Seeking Path" much further than most others I have ever been able to have a reasonable conversation with, about such personal issues that most humans do not wish to discuss with others. I have spent enough time, study, experimentation, practice, praying, meditating, to be able to KNOW, that NO HUMAN really KNOWS EXACTLY, where they will go, immediately after dying and leaving the body! Talk is cheep, and faith is not proof of any thing! Faith is the "substance, of things HOPED for, the EVIDENCE of things NOT seen." ( Hebrews 11:1) I could suddenly revert back to being the Preacher I once was, spewing every word that left my mouth plagiarized from the Bible, and was able to have an answer for every single statement that any other human made, taken from a Bible Dogma. But, I have been there, and it caused many divisions among my family and friends. Most Christians have buried me as a Heretic, long, long before I died! I am still raving on, so it appears my Creator is not finished with me yet, and I am still open to what ever "Mission" that is required of me, while in the human body this time around!

But, along the way, I have placed my bets and as many possibilities of progressing in spiritual "Heavens" as is possible. But, cutting to the spiritual chase, if I die tonight, and do not wake up in this human body in the morning, I have to decide before I fall asleep, just where I believe I will find what's left of "me"????? IF I do survive as a separate, individual spirit, away from this present body. ( Y'all do, as well, whether Y'all are ready to admit it or not. If not, perhaps your much younger than I, much healthier, and have not yet let go of your belief in eternal mortality.

But, for me, will Jesus, a Man/God character described in 4 Gospels of the New Testament Christian Bible be waiting for me with His open arms to greet me as soon as I find myself outside my human dead body? Hmmmm. Serious thought. If I was once alive in a human body during the time Jesus was a human, I can not remember. Therefore, if I did meet him in person, face to face, I would not recognize some one I can't remember ever meeting. I know, we have his pictures all over the Internet, but, can we really trust and believe that is what he would look like in the spirit realm, or where ever he happens to be, when we leave our bodies? According to the Book of Hebrews, he sits at the right hand of the Father, as our Intercessor. But, how many of us know, or have ever met the Father of Jesus, or our own Father??? ( Spirit Father, not human father.) As for me, I have already sorted out who the "Father" is, in my own understanding. I once studied with Jehovah's Witnesses, even going door to door, on Saturdays, doing "Service" for Jehovah. I had all their books, and studied their Dogma, and went to their "Kingdom Halls" several times weekly, almost to the point of becoming one of their Zombie slaves. But, I never became baptized as a Witness, and finally left their Sect, after loosing my faith in their Jehovah. Presently, I do NOT believe that the Old Testament character in the Christian Bible was the "Father" that Jesus called his Father, or Who sent him. That Old Testament Jehovah was a jealous, angry, character, who was ???? Each will have to decide for them selves, but Jehovah is NOT the Eternal Spirit I put my trust and faith of individual survival in, or my promise of Eternal life.

I believe in John Calvin's Dogma of what might be called the Christian Reformed Faith, or "Once Saved, Always Saved." My Theology to back up my belief in Eternal Security can be viewed on this blog, and was my Master of Ministry Degree Thesis I wrote in 1983 for my Seminary. Calvin's Dogma consists of "Election, Reprobation, Predestination, and Eternal Security." I since have added to the Dogma, Reincarnation and Karma, which lines up perfectly, as well as explains how it operates, and why it is the perfect Justice of our Creator!

So, reincarnation signifies that a created spirit, as not only past lives, and most likely as many as it has taken to finally arrive at Salvation, but, once saved, always saved, and there should no longer require any future incarnations, or reincarnations into material species. But, the KEY becomes, KNOWING, that we truly ARE saved!!! I have my own personal Faith, Y'all will have to ponder on your own.

Since I "believe" I have had many, many, past lives, in other material bodies, not only here on earth, but even possibly on other planets before I took births here, I now live in my own parallel spiritual Universe! As the Apostle Paul was quoted to have explained, "Absent from the body, present with The Lord." And, he was once caught up in the spirit, where he didn't know just which spiritual plane or heaven he was in. Many religious sects divide the spiritual realms, or planes, starting with material, ascending to higher spiritual planes, and one of the Sects I studied with divides it into 12 Planes. My Rosicrucian studies divides it into, either material, or spiritual, in, or out of the body. They simplify it. They teach that our entire earth goal is to discover our own "Master within." But, they never tell us just WHO this mysterious Master is! The East Indian Gurus I studied with, taught that the master who taught us, was the Master to look for, inside, who would lead us to where ever we were supposed to go. But, very few ever meet these supposed masters with in.

I believe that my own Master within, is my own personal Universal spiritual guide, who has been giving me the answers to all my questions ever since I took birth in this body and have been asking questions and asking for guidance! That guide has been my "Point Guide." WE" have been in a war of spiritual progression since creation.

I believe this guide, is actually, my combined historical combination, of all my past life personalities, and hoovers closely to my material body. When I am awake, a partial beam of projected consciousness is projected from my Universal spiritual guide, into my material body, but my body filters shade 90% of the knowledge that exists in my Universal guide, which is my own, historical, combined past live experiences, in all material bodies and existences, on all planets, since the very first second of my spirit creation! Hard to swallow, but very easy to digest, once leaving the body, and being present with The Lord, as Paul said, and as I have experienced during meditation. But, falling asleep nightly, unlocks the prison gate from the body, and allows the spirit to visit the Universal guide, or the other past lives guide, which is the actual guide waiting to welcome me back to the spirit realm as soon as I take my last breath here!

Then, the new mysterious experiences will begin, and I will wait to see where my total historical past life spirit guide will take me!

Of course, my guide is subject to higher Spiritual Guides, who also are working in the Chain of Command, all the way to our Highest Spiritual Creator, Who will remain a mystery to me, at least, until I KNOW that I KNOW. All I know so far, is, I AM, that I AM. But, I AM ready,....for what ever awaits me, Are Y'all?

I choose to call this Universal Creator Spirit that animates ALL life on ALL planets, CHRIST in us, the Hope of Glory!!

Until we meet again, here or there, I remain,
Eternal Flame

Osho, It was Charan's Astral Form that I encountered,....that he projected in to my Third Eye when he i initiated me, Feb 4, 1990, which is always with me, and will never leave me. So, I never projected to meet him. I only got his attention to manifest to my Third Eye, INSIDE my head. His Radiant Firm would be completely different, on the Causal Plane, ..if Ireach there. If not while living, for certain he will meet me at death, to guide me to my next Mission.

David Lane posted here, some time ago, why he still meditates. He will have to return here and revise, if he has changed his mind or meditations since his recent DERA visit, if he dares to come out of his Bunker, and be interviewed by the Exers who have admired his rebellion for years.


We have physical eyes which help us see 3 dimensional objects.
Then there is the eye of the mind. What does it sees?
How about the eye of the awareness? It's the ability of awareness to become aware of something.
What is hearing? What's seeing?
They have a different meaning in the physical, mental and spiritual realm.
Anything you imagine is actually formless, even thought your imagination has given it a form. And that's because the imagined thing doesn't exists.

I was reading Brian’s latest posting about objective and subjective reality.
In many ways the “enlightenment” of the Buddha and Osho and others is not really an “Enlightenment” as most people think of it, at all.

Why not? Because it is the end of the life-long held beliefs. Only they don’t deny the beliefs or turn against them. Instead they see clearly how ridiculous the beliefs were.

The Buddha did not find God. But he did not spend his denying that She exists. Instead he spoke of a Nirvana – which was a negation of everything. The ultimate emptiness, if you will.

So utterly empty that he had to coin the word nirvana to make it clear that it is nothing.

When asked “So did you find this enlightenment?” He replied NO.
“So you failed?” “No” replied Buddha,
“I now know there is nothing to seek because there is nothing to be found.”
He is not saying he BELIEVES there is nothing. He has dropped the belief.

Osho is similar: Anyone who gives you a belief system is your enemy he says.
(just google it on youtube if you want more info)
Here (below) in this video he talks of belief vs trust
He is using trust in his own way – his own version, like he does with many words.
“if you believe in my statements, you are going to be crazy. They are so contradictory,
You will not be able to figure out what I actually I want to say to you” – Osho
He is doing this because there is nothing to say, nothing to convey. And no dogma, no teachings, no system, no religion can be made from this words.
Although, having said that, the Osho centres are still going and people listen to his words, do the meditations, and pretty soon it will become another religion.

Jim Wrote :
"It was Charan's Astral Form that I encountered,....that he projected in to my Third Eye when he i initiated me, Feb 4, 1990, which is always with me, and will never leave me. So, I never projected to meet him. I only got his attention to manifest to my Third Eye, INSIDE my head. His Radiant Firm would be completely different, on the Causal Plane, ..if Ireach there. If not while living, for certain he will meet me at death, to guide me to my next Mission.”

If we get really objective about all this, and accurate on what is objective reality and what is a belief, as uncomfortable as it may be, we would re-word the statement that you (Jim) made above to separate the real from the belief.
So it might read something like this:

I BELIEVE it was Charan’s Astral Form that I encountered, which, according to what I believe was projected into my third eye on initiation and I believe it is always with me.
I believe I never projected to meet him. I believe I got his attention, so that he manifested in my third eye (inside me).
I also believe that his radiant form will be different on the Causal Plane (which is a place I believe exists as I have not been there). I also believe that he will certainly meet me after death, to guide me to my next fictional mission (as I don’t really know if I am on one).

Now this, of course is not easy to do, because – here’s the issue:
Once a belief is acquired, is appears to be true to that person. As true as any other fact.

I was speaking to a muslim recently, and he said that the Koran came directly from God. I asked how he knew and he said it was a matter of fact. He also said the pages of the Koran were found by Mohammed, growing on trees, and he just collected them.

This is not even what the religion says, but to him it is a fact because probably someone close to him told him as a child.

It is hard if not impossible to remove life-long held beliefs, because they appear to be FACTS to the believer.

It is even harder to separate the facts from the fiction in an experience you have.

Anything you imagine is actually formless, even though your imagination has given it a form. And that's because the imagined thing doesn't exists.

The same logic applies. If it is formless – then it has no outline – so cannot be seen. If it can be seen it has a form. The formless cannot be seen because it has no form.
It doesn’t matter what the form is made of. Could be physical, astral or causal.
If you say it doesn’t exist – then it is formless. Then it cannot have a form and you cannot see it.
If you can see it – then it has a form and a shape. Then it does exist.

To Osho: Your arguments are of no value, if you actually BELIEVE that "you" no longer exist, and "i" am a brain washed creton that doesn't exist. I have no further Philosophical arguments, nor Theology, nor Scriptures, to convince you that you may not be as spiritually enlightened as you imagine your self to be.

I could continue "reasoning" with you, as a Brother Initiate of a Spiritual Moral Master , Charan Singh, but you come up very short trying to convince me of any thing of value and lasting , that you could have received from a Scoundrel like Osho, your Master , you use to back up your arguements.

In a Court of Law, in ANY Democratic Country, in a Jury of our Peers, ......why would ANY sane, moral human being with our a criminal back ground, follow any thing taught by such an unmoral heretic like Osho as compared to Charan Singh?

Taking it a step further, using the Lurkers in Hine's Church who don't have a dog in the fight, nor are even initiated by either RSSB or other Sant Mat Sects, nor know either, you or me, personally, which one of us would a Jury of Church Lurkers consider the most believable,.and reliable,...you, the desciple of Osho, the Scoundrel with very limited moral values, ,..or me, the desciple of Charan Singh?

If you have a Face Book site, send me an invite, and you will be able to get an idea of the success of a Charan Desciple as compared to desciples of a Scoundral like Osho.


Osho Robbins is basically a foolish Nihilist.
Anything that doesn't has a form doesn't exist?
Okay, then what about consciousness? Does it has a form in this or any other universe/plane? No? So, it doesn't exists?
When we talk about a God without attributes, we don't consider existence to be an attribute. And that's because there is nothing called nonexistent, no illusion of it beyond duality.
I'm not going to deal with your faith in the nihilist branch of Buddhism.
If nothing exists, then feel free to take a samadhi. You aren't needed then. A person unaware of the truth of his existence isn't of any use.

Goku, and Jim Sutherland

Forget what I say, do you consider the words of Charan Singh as truth?
So, let me quote what HE said, paraphrasing slightly to make it clear.

“He (GOD) is the ONLY ONE (that exists). Always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
How can we say that something is real when it is not permanent?” – Charan Singh (text in brackets is mine)

The reference to WAS, IS and ALWAYS simply means “encompasses all time and space” or you can say “Beyond Time and Space” – but leave this aside if you don’t agree.

What does this MEAN?
(1) If you are not permanent – then you are not real. (i.e you just APPEAR to be real – you don’t really exist)
(2) Everything within time and space is impermanent & unreal
(3) Except the ONE (GOD), nothing else EXISTS (i.e. is unreal)

I have assumed that if something is UNREAL then it doesn’t exist (even though it may appear to exist).

So a dream appears to be real – while in the dream state. Once you wake up, you will say “It was just a dream, it didn’t really happen.”
And this is the important part
The dream is UNREAL even though it appears to be real while it is happening.

In the same way “YOU” appear to be real while your life is happening.

So just follow this to its conclusion.
YOU (Jim) and ME (osho) are impermanent.

Anything that YOU or I see, experience, feel, taste, smell etc is also impermanent.
Why? Because EVERYTHING except the ONE is impermanent and unreal.

Charan Singh says so. This is from the statements that Charan Singh has made and you agree he made those statements.

Charan Singh also says there is no individual soul.
Because he says, “Except the ONE, nothing else exists.” (That means YOU and I)

So screw what I (Osho Robbins) says. Maybe I have no clue.
But will you also say “Screw what Maharaj Charan Singh Ji says?”
I don’t think so.

And now let’s be clear – that is EXACTLY what Maharaj Charan Singh says.
There is no getting away from it.

If I have stated anything above that is not directly deduced from Maharja Charan Singh Ji’s statements, then please reply back and explain exactly which part.

Otherwise – You have to accept the truth of this – or call your own guru a liar which I don’t think you will do.
There is no third option. If there is – present it to me.


Without attributes doen't exist

"It ever grows" . . a la Fibonacci's Golde Rule , . . . Splendid



Osho, you do what all Fundies do when quoting Charan Singh. You " Proof Text", or only pick and choose the isolated comments he made to specific people at that time, as proof of what you believe. But you convienently leave out other examples he said, such as souls recognize each other when reaching Sach Khand; the three Regions mentioned by others that they say are above, or higher than Sach Khand, are only Sub Divisions of Sach Khand; and when a single flame from a candle merges with a larger flame, then is taken back out, it still retains its individuality. So you conviently discard relevant statements that offer balance to Sant Mat Teachings in favor of Advaita Vedanta. Most Newbies won't bother to even read the entire Article I posted that Charan wrote about his idea of Creation. So, they will be confused by your unbalanced rhetoric, which, YOU will need to balance in your Karmic accounting, before you will ever be able to escape the Wheel of 84, Charausi.

Osho wrote: "So a dream appears to be real – while in the dream state. Once you wake up, you will say “It was just a dream, it didn’t really happen.”
And this is the important part
The dream is UNREAL even though it appears to be real while it is happening."

Jim Rebuts: Dreams some times ARE real. A couple of years ago, I was dreaming that "i" was watching two men, in white smocks, standing next to what looked like a person laying on a table, but I could not see the face. But one man looked like he was holding some thing in his right hand,..and probing in and out of the person on the table! He kept looking back at me, whete ever I was observing them from, which seemed to be about 30 feet away from them, in a room that first appeared like a restaurant kitchen. The other man also kept looking at me, as if he was guarding some thing, or assisting the other man. As I watched, I suddenly FELT excruciating pain, up my Butt, then another real tearing pain way up inside my Rectum!! I bolted up from my bed, feeling my self, and even checked if I was bleeding! After I calmed down, and gave the dream some thought, I was embarrassed to think, I might have been having a past life recall of being raped by these two men! A few days went by, and I kept trying to recall any past incidences in my life , this life, where I might have been abused, but could not remember even a single incidence. I started feeling guilty that I may have been raped in a past life.

About a week later, I was walking , doing my morning exercise in the forest, and Voila!! The remembrance of the dream came to me! A month before the dream, I had a Colonoscopy procedure done in a Hospital. During the procedure, an Anesthesiologist was assisting the Doctor who had the Camera Wand inserted in to my Rectom and he was videoing the Colan, and he also had told me he removed several Pollups he found in my Colon. So, My Astral Body was obviously out of my physical body, observing the procecure, but was out side of Space and time, and never reported back until I DREMPT a REAL event that DID happen.

So, some dreams ARE real.

The statements I made of charan are correct.
I am not saying he has never made other statements.
However if he has made contradictory statements then there is a problem because everyone will be confused as they focus on different statements.

Are you saying that the particular statements I quoted are incorrect or out of context.

They were in response to direct questions

The statement does not need balancing. Either it is true or not.

If you are saying charan singh has said both then it means one or the other is untrue.

The statement I quoted is very clear.

If the opposite is just as clear then that explains why so many people are confused or just give up.

I read your dream scenario.

The dream appears to be real while it is happening. That is why you feel emotions too while dreaming. You might laugh or cry or feel sad or happy.

Your dream appeared to be real. Then you woke up and realised those events did not happen in the physical world.

If they happen to be premonitions or related to an event like yours that is a special case but it was a dream nevertheless.

The point I was making is the dream seems real until it's over.

It is the same with this life. This life seems real until it's over.

Charan singh is saying that it is not real because "how can something that ends be real"

Osho, I concur that Charan taught we eventually will lose our individuality after the grand dissolution, but no one knows when that will occurr, as its necessary to continue having a creation for Marked souls to balance their Karma, by MEDITATION to seek the Path of returning to HIM, the Creator. If ou don't meditate, how do you plan on escaping MAYA?

That doesn't imply there is not individual souls, nor that they never existed, or don't presently exist, or are impermanent.

Here is what Charan said, which certainly proves Gurinder Singh is not changing Sant Mat 101 to 102 and 203 as per your Videos.
Spiritual Perspectives, Vol. 1, Q & A # 20,21,.........Charan said,...."You see, you bring together all the flames of the candles. The fire is one, yet every candle has a different root. You become God-then you become the Creator instead of the creation."

question: " Somebody has said each individual soul still maintains its individuality in a sense, and has its own particular shabd. Is that true?"

Charan answers: "There is no question of individuality at all. We all merge into one. Everything has come out of the Lord and the whole creation is nothing but his own projection. When the grand dissolution comes, There will be only one. everybody will merge back into the same source from where they have come. When there is one, there is no individuality. When he has projected himself in the form of creation, then so many individualities come. Our whole endeavor is again to become one, to lose this individuality which we have got by becoming a part of the creation and to merge back into the Creator and become one with the Creator. That is the effort, and that is the purpose of meditation. If we will still preserve our individuality there, then what is the point of meditation. We have so developed our ego in this world, our individuality, that we cannot intellectually conceive of the idea , " How can I lose my individuality?" Now we are limited, then we become unlimited. Then we become one."

For the sake of completeness, this is the Q&A I took the Charan Singh quote from.
"Q. 363. What was in the beginning?
A. First, there was only the Lord, who is without beginning and without end. He has projected Himself everywhere . There was nothing besides Him. He was the only one. All that we see is just His own projection. Everything is projected from Him. If we admit that there was something besides Him, then the Lord is not one. He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection.
Q. 368. Everything, except the form which is God, is actually unreal, because only that which is eternal is real, is that right?
A. That is right. How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?”

Jim wrote:-
“you do what all Fundies do when quoting Charan Singh. You " Proof Text", or only pick and choose the isolated comments he made to specific people at that time, as proof of what you believe. But you convienently leave out other examples he said, such as souls recognize each other when reaching Sach Khand; the three Regions mentioned by others that they say are above, or higher than Sach Khand, are only Sub Divisions of Sach Khand; and when a single flame from a candle merges with a larger flame, then is taken back out, it still retains its individuality.”
No – I am taking an actual statement he made, and making sure it is in context. Then I am ASSUMING that he is telling the truth (i.e. his statement is TRUE).
After that – I am simply expanding on the statement to follow it to its logical conclusion.
I am not conveniently leaving out anything.
Charan Singh Is NOT ALONE in making those statements.
“Paltu – there is only ONE – there IS no other” – Paltu Sahib
“He (GOD) is the ONLY ONE (that exists). Always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
How can we say that something is real when it is not permanent?” – Charan Singh
If we just take that statement alone – it is saying that the ONE is all there is, was and will be.
If the ONE is ALL there is, can there be anything or anyone else?
Obviously not.
(a) God or the ONE is “ALL THERE IS”
(b) Charan Singh and Paltu have got it wrong

If it’s (a) then there is no Jim, or anyone else in existence (meaning that it’s all illusion or maya). And that is what all the scriptures say: That evertyung you see here is all unreal.
I can guarantee that if you hear that statement in a satsang or if Gurinder says it – you will accept it totally.
Just because “I” say it – you resist it like it’s some kind of weird idea.

If you hear a statement that Charan Singh makes (like the above) – do you just pay lip service to it and act like he never made the statement?
Or do you take it to be true?

Of course, you can disagree – if you can present a coherent argument for it.

Goku & Jim,

When Charan Singh makes a statement - how can you SELECTIVELY accept is as true?

I agree there may be statements he makes that say the opposite, but if that is the case, then surely some clarification is needed as to which is true?

At the very least there should be some explanation.

After all, if someone else makes a contradictory statement, you call them every name under the sun.

Goku: you call me a foolish Nihilist when I make a statement - and that is when I back it up with reason.

Charan Singh makes this statement that you clearly do NOT agree with - and what do you do?

Do you have a name for Him also?

Or do you now agree with His statement?

This is the problem with faith. Anything your guru says you accept totally just because He said it. But have you really accepted it, or are you just pretending?

Because when I make the same statement, you disagree with it.

But it is the exact same statement.

Go figure.....

Jim Sutherland :-
“Osho, I concur that Charan taught we eventually will lose our individuality after the grand dissolution, but no one knows when that will occurr, as its necessary to continue having a creation for Marked souls to balance their Karma, by MEDITATION to seek the Path of returning to HIM, the Creator. If you don't meditate, how do you plan on escaping MAYA?
That doesn't imply there is not individual souls, nor that they never existed, or don't presently exist, or are impermanent.”

No – not eventually. You need to condor what He actually said – or admit that what He said was wrong (as was what Paltu said). Let me clarify what I mean:
“He (GOD) is the ONLY ONE (that exists). Always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
How can we say that something is real when it is not permanent?” – Charan Singh
He is not saying ONE DAY they will be one. He specifically uses the words
Always WAS, IS and WILL BE
He does NOT say only “WILL BE”. You are ignoring the “WAS and IS” – so you are being selective in accepting Charan Singh’s Statement.
The REASON why Charan Singh says WAS and IS as well as WILL BE is because the sikh scriptures also say the same thing. They say that you are not going to MERGE in the future “ONE DAY” but that you ALREADY are one – and just have to REALISE it. It is already the case – but you are deluded. Drop the delusion which is kept in place by false beliefs, and the truth appears. It was always there – but now it becomes clear.

I could quote lots of examples, but I will quote one
“Jo Thakar sad sada hazura, tha ko andha jani dura”
The God which is EVER PRESENT (past present future) – the BLIND MAN considers far away.
The sikh scriptures state that YOU and GOD are ONE, and it is only the EGO that makes you think they are two separate entities.
Here’s what a sikh teacher is saying that YOU ARE once you remove the false EGO
If you SELECT part of a statement – you miss the point.

“That doesn't imply there is not individual souls, nor that they never existed, or don't presently exist, or are impermanent.”
If Charan Singh says and Paltu says, and the scriptures say
There is only the ONE – there is nothing else – all else is MAYA
That MEANS exactly what it says
That there is nothing (no soul) except the one.

Of course you can see there are lots of things apart from the ONE.
There are people, things, and the world all around us.
So the explanation is “This is not real – it is temporary – here today and gone tomorrow”
And anything that is temporary is defined as UNREAL.
Of course it APPEARS to be real (like the dream) – but it is not REALITY
It is MAYA (Illusion).
This is Charan Singh exact statement. Go check it if you are in doubt.

Now I DO AGREE that Charan Singh also said other things that contradict this.
And also that the traditional Radha Soami Teachings also contradict this.

This is the duality element of the teachings. Those teachings are incorrect.
Why? Because they can’t BOTH be true.

If I say “God is EVERYWHERE” and I also say “There are SOME PLACES” where God is NOT.

It is a FACT (not an opinion) that ONE of those statements are incorrect.

Something (God) cannot be EVERYWHERE and
Missing from some places
As the same time.

One of those statements has to be incorrect.

The statement that “GOD is all there is” does not leave any place for a YOU.
Because then there are TWO – You and God.
So which is it?
Are there Two or ONE?

The problem with OshoRobbins is that he doesn't understands the difference between different levels of existence.
When I gave the free will example, he didn't understand what I was implying. He just questioned me if I understood what I was saying. Asked if I was saying things that have no meaning but just sound cool.

Osho, if God is omniscient, can there be any free will?
You'd find a beautiful answer to this in Flora E. Woods' book.
People have free will, but there is no free will at higher levels of existence.
Saints have their own level of existence, which is much higher than ours. That's why Mirdad says that every word that is said is a honest lie at best(unless people are at same level of existence).
Attain the level of consciousness that Saints had(now you might misinterpret my use of "had" and say that they never attained higher state of existence as they can't have attain something that transcends time in past), only then you'd know.

We must all not rule out, that at our Human level, and level of understanding, contradictions by even enlightened Masters can be some times userstood as lies by we who remain in Pind, or body consciousness, hightly filtered by sheaths of our Perispirit, ( soul condoms ), Astral, Causal, Mental, Etereal sheaths acting as filters dumbing down our knotted souls.

Christian Fundamentalists claim the Bible is inerrant, free of errors, God's Words, but even there, Apostles lie, or contradict them selves!

John lied! "If I bare witness of myself, my witness is not true." John 5:31

"I am one that bares witness of myself." John 8:18

Let’s get to the root of the issue here.
Charan answers: (See jim’s comment above)
"There is no question of individuality at all. We all merge into one. Everything has come out of the Lord and the whole creation is nothing but his own projection. When the grand dissolution comes, There will be only one. everybody will merge back into the same source from where they have come. When there is one, there is no individuality. If we will still preserve our individuality there, then what is the point of meditation?”
So clearly Charan Singh is saying that the final destination is ONENESS. So in the end, no individuality remains as the soul merges into the ONE SOUL known as GOD.
The main issue is about HOW this happens.
Are we already ONE and just REALISE it.
The sant mat teachings say that we MERGE. Charan Singh also says that we merge.
However Gurinder Singh says we just REALISE – not merge.

I maintain that we are ALREADY ONE and just REALIZE it in the process I call “Enlightenment”.
That is all enlightenment is: realisation of that which ALWAYS WAS – it is not a merging.
Now let’s add this statement to see where it leads:
“He (GOD) is the ONLY ONE (that exists). Always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
How can we say that something is real when it is not permanent?” – Charan Singh
If God is the ONLY ONE – then who are all the individual souls?
Clearly we cannot be real and our individuality is an illusion.
There cannot be a merging for this reason.
For merging to happen – the souls must be separate.
However, the statement says God always IS and WAS the ONLY ONE.
The ONLY way this statement can be true is:-
There is no individuality. Now even now. The individuality is an illusion.
Once this illusion disappears (enlightenment) then the ONENESS that always was becomes apparent.
You don’t attain oneness – you discover it.

Why is this distinction so important?

Because if you attain – then there is a separate YOU (now) who meditates and then finally arrives (one day).
This is MAYA (illusion) because it involves TIME and SPACE.
TIME because you arrive ONE DAY (TIME) and
SPACE because you arrive and merge so there must be movement.

So it is not that I don’t understand what Goku or Jim is saying
Or that I don’t understand the RSSB teachings.

I understand them very well. I was reading the RSSB books at age 10.
I am just saying they cannot be correct. It is impossible for the reasons I have already outlined.

Regarding the issue of FREE WILL that Goku raises:
From the point of view of ONENESS – there is no free will
Because nothing happens. No “will” is possible.
Even to say there is no free will is silly. There is nothing.

And from the level of the individual there is free will simply because we have an ego and we feel we are doing something. So we appear to be free.

In fact we are doing nothing. Because there is nothing to be done.

If Osho reaizes he is already God, and there is nothing more to do, .....i.e. No merging needed, then why doesn't God cure sickness, death, pain, wars, animal sacrifice, and all the problems of the world?

Same reason none of us do, .......because we ain't God.

According to Osho's scenero, if all of us in creation are being God already, right where we are, individually, that is not actually real individuality, then, we can all look forward to remaining God as we are, or continue to reincarnate or transmigrate back and forth in to the Wheel of 8,400,000 possible species for eternity, that has no end, because it never had a beginning, and we aren't really here, because we are impermanent. Too bad we have to struggle do hard at life to remain impermanite. .

Any one else buy the Philosophy here, other than Osho?

If there are any shy Gurinder initiates lurking here, is this really Gurinfer's Theology, that we are all already ahod, all we need to fo is REALIZE it, so we can wuit trying to merge by meditating? Last I heard from ant Gurinderites, he still ask Initistes to meditate. If no ergi g is needed, or hsppens, from body to ANY other non e isting zplane, thsn why is he still asking followers at RSSB and Sat Sangs to meditate?

Is there a Sant Mat Conspiracy happening, or is Osho Robbins imagining things that are not happening in RSSB?

Jim writes:
"If Osho reaizes he is already God, and there is nothing more to do, .....i.e. No merging needed, then why doesn't God cure sickness, death, pain, wars, animal sacrifice, and all the problems of the world?

Same reason none of us do, .......because we ain't God."

Because God doesn't DO anything. If He did - He would already have done all you mentioned. God is not a person.
Also - You seriously think that God can cure sickness, death, pain, wars etc?
Those will always exist - it is part of duality.
You think of God in terms of duality and power.

So we are talking about a different God. My God is lazy. He does nothing all day and rests at night and has weekends off.

Just kidding - but you get my point. My God has no attributes and there is no right or wrong and good and bad.
That is all duality fiction and is mind related.

If your Guru is that kind of God, how come he has not done all you say?

“According to Osho's scenero, if all of us in creation are being God already, right where we are, individually, that is not actually real individuality, then, …….”
No, you mis-understand. There is no “ALL” There is only ONE.
GOD is already – YOU and I are not.
I did not say “WE are all GODS”. I am saying GOD is all there is.
You don’t MERGE in him – You already are NOT and GOD IS.

Kabir says :-
“When I was – YOU (GOD) was not ((i.e. I could not FIND you)
Now – YOU (GOD) ARE (meaning I have realized the ONE) and I am NOT” – Kabir

(the ego, the “I”, the individuality) has disappeared.

How can WE be Gods? When I have said there is no individuality.
Gurinder DOES SAY that we are already ONE and just have to REALIZE it.
He advocates meditation as the means to REALIZE it.
That is why he tells the followers to meditate.
He also says – “It is not in your hands” and “You cannot do it”
There is no conspiracy and I am not imagining.
I am not the only one who has observed the changes.

Gurinder is simply saying that you have to REALIZE – not go anywhere or merge.

Which is in line with what I stated.

As an 'exer', after diligently following this path as a Charan initiate I feel free at last.

I love my individuality. I love my ego. I like being separate from this so called God (I hate this "God" word). I don't want to merge as a little drop into this ocean. I would prefer to carry on experiencing and enjoying life as an individual being. I'd like to be born again on different planets, in different universes and enjoy just being alive and sentient.

Why bother meditating and striving to merge back into something that is just a "God" word and a myth that has been perpetuated over and over since time began. So theres a creator, so what, who cares...?

After all, "Charan taught we eventually will lose our individuality after the grand dissolution" so who gives a sh*t.

Jen makes an interesting point:-
She says “I would prefer to carry on experiencing and enjoying life as an individual being. I'd like to be born again on different planets, in different universes and enjoy just being alive and sentient.”
Everything is a perspective and a belief.
If I say “You will disappear after you die and merge into the ONE”
One person may say “That is good – I WANT to disappear”
However, another may say “I don’t want to disappear. I want to be re-born”
So it could easily happen the other way around.
I mean that you will disappear into nothing – UNLESS you meditate.
Then you will meditate to remain individual and to still exist after death.
Which is the reward and which is the punishment?
Jim has already stated that he too does not want to disappear.
He wants to remain an individual.
Then WHY meditate? Because in the end at Alakh – the teachings say he will merge and disappear.
Why meditate to work towards that?
If you don’t want to disappear?

Meditate = disappear (merge)
Don’t meditate = remain individual

Which do you choose?

"Meditate = disappear (merge)
Don’t meditate = remain individual"

Yes, Osho this is true. Now I know why I don't like meditating!

I am still vegetarian, don't drink alcohol, don't take mind altering drugs and I live a moral life - I think this is the most important, being kind, compassionate, true to self, living with integrity because in this way we are creating our future self.

I was such a shy, scared young female so when I heard about a living Master of course I needed that - at that time. Now I see that He was simply an example and I am grateful. Gratitude is an important practice.

Now that I am more confident in myself, the next fear which is trying to take over is the fear of death. This is why older satsangis cling to the path and the Master because they want to be saved - and thats okay - to each their own.

I'm into Sovereignty now and hopefully when I pass over it will be into a more positive, constructive life or maybe just an adventure into the other dimensions.

I wonder about the bulldozer effect and hope I can avoid it - I imagine myself blasting out of here as a fiery comet. What we believe - we create...

Osho says: "Meditate = disappear (merge)
Don’t meditate = remain individual

Which do you choose?"

Jim chooses Meditation, but not far enough to merge and disappear. Jim chooses to attempt Sat Nam immersion only, where Charan said souls entering there still recognise each other. That is Sach Khand, which is obviously much less dense than Lower realms, and could very well exist on other planets than earth, where killing, war, eating, drinking, is not required to keep these physical bodies alive.

Osho chooses Don't Meditate, so he will remain the excentric individual he is, while imagining he is God, still needing to work, suffer, kill, eat, sleep, and remsin a slave to mind, and physical body senses.

No Philosophy needs to be understood here. Its pure Fact, backed by Scripture and testimony from Swamiji, Rai Salig Ram, and most of the Soami Bagh Gurus, Jamail, Sawan, and Charan Singh. And, Kirpal and his Kirpalis.

Osho, the only Sant Mat guru PUBLICALLY espousing Advaita Sant Mat philosophy in English, is Ishwar Puri, who is publically teaching that none of us ever left Sach Khand, and we are all still there! He has a less aggressive twist than you do, tho, as he recommends 5 minutes meditation every morning visualizing flowers and visualizing orange juice filling up his body.

He has more Youtube talks on the Internet than you do, so must have mote followers as well.

Osho, you can't help but do wordplay, huh?
When a teacher is teaching his students, it's okay to use the word "merge", because he/she has to explain it to their students on their level.
"""""Because if you attain – then there is a separate YOU (now) who meditates and then finally arrives (one day).
This is MAYA (illusion) because it involves TIME and SPACE.
TIME because you arrive ONE DAY (TIME) and
SPACE because you arrive and merge so there must be movement."""""
Fool, according to people on a lower level of existence, you attain. But, on higher level of existence, you don't.
You haven't achieved higher level of existence. Just by understanding, you can't attain. Yes, it's "attain" for you, intelligence has nothing to do with your level of existence.
When you die, you'd leave all your understanding behind. And then you'd suffer again and again for the same understanding, never changing a thing. After all, awareness never dies.

Jen, have you never experienced inner joy, tranquility and peace? Have you never experience any awakening to higher state of awareness? I'm not talking about using psychedelics, they don't raise awareness.
If you had experienced an higher level of existence, or atleast life in a higher physical realm(physical realms would be universes in the same space), you'd not want to give them up for hundreds of different births in this world.
Your mind has imagined how it would be, on the basis of your everyday experience, and probably termed the merging and losing identity to be something like Sleeping.

On other note, I've still not attained the age required for initiation.

To Osho:

I (osho) wrote:
“Everything is a perspective and a belief.
If I say “You will disappear after you die and merge into the ONE”
One person may say “That is good – I WANT to disappear”
However, another may say “I don’t want to disappear. I want to be re-born”
So it could easily happen the other way around.
I mean that you will disappear into nothing – UNLESS you meditate.
Then you will meditate to remain individual and to still exist after death.
Which is the reward and which is the punishment?”

The point I was making was this:
You are creating the whole MEANING of what your life is all about
And it is all nonsense.
So just imagine for a moment……

After death – there is deep sleep = “Nothingness” if you will.
That’s it – you become nothing – you disappear into the abyss.
Then you have a choice.

If you do XXXXXX then and only then you will have LIFE instead of deep sleep.
Where XXXXXX is “meditate” or “pray” or “accept Mohammad” or “surrender”
So in this scenario, DEEP SLEEP (or nothingness) is considered the BAD THING because you want to continue to exist.

In order to continue to have life – you have to work hard or DO SOMETHING
If you succeed – you get another life. Whippee – another life. Jump for joy.
If you fail to meditate properly or pray or whatever, then I am afraid it’s game over for you, pal. Sorry – but rules are rules – you failed – now you pay by disappearing into a black hole. Bye. Better luck next time (oh yes – there is no next time –you should have tried harder, fool).

So – in that scenario – you will spend your life being busy doing the meditation or whatever, hoping you succeed.

Now let’s change the scenario to Scenario no 2:

After death – you will re-incarnate into the 8.4 Million species of life. Well actually 9.5 Million, because another 1.1 Million new species have appeared since the last count.
If you don’t want all the pain and suffering, then my friend, you are going to have to go to some powerful guru and meditate – only then can you avoid the 8.4 Million and become the ONE.
You could cleverly hang around in Sat Lok but avoid Anami every time he comes around, merging all the souls into Himself.
However, you are going to have to be really good at avoiding because He is all knowing and all powerful. So good luck with that one.

In either scenario – you are busy preparing for the “afterlife”
You are trying to attain – to succeed at reaching your given outcome.
So while you are doing this – trying to get there; it means that YOU ARE NOT THERE YET – so you are UNHAPPY because you have a GOAL and you have not attained it yet.

You will only be happy ONCE you attain.
So sant mat followers will only be happy once they know their place in Sach Khand is secured.

Hence all the people who go to the microphone to ask for GRACE.
They are asking for their place in Sat Lok to be secured.
Why? Because that is happiness for them.

Now, you ready for the punch line?
No? not yet? You want to postpone a while longer?
You want to wait for God or Godot a while longer?
You can watch the two vagabonds while you wait
It’s an abridged version of day 1 – so you don’t waste too much time waiting

(at 7:25 this is the dialogue)
Let’s wait to see what He says.
Ah yes
I am curious to see what He has to offer; Then we take it or leave it
What exactly did we ask him for?
Were you not there?
I can’t have been listening
Oh, nothing very definite
A kind of prayer?
A vague supplication
And what did He reply?
That He’d see
That He couldn’t promise anything?
That He would have to think it over
In the quiet of his home
Consult his family and friends and bank account…

And WE…..?
I beg your padon
I said “and WE…”
I don’t understand
And where do we come in?
As bad as that?
You will worship Him to assert his prerogatives
We’ve no rights anymore?
Ha – you make me laugh – if it wasn’t prohibited
We lost out rights?
We got rid of them …..

Just the above part from another version of the play


at 1:17: it’s the dream – equiv to getting to Sach khand… the reward
Let’s go
Perhaps we’ll sleep tonight in his…. All snug and dry
Our bellies full, in the hay
That’s worth waiting for… no?
Not all night
It’s still day….

Okay – so now are you ready?
Had enough of the postponement?
Okay – here goes…….

Scenario 1 or 2 – both are based on:-
The assumption that there is a certain outcome you are seeking. (to BE or not to be)
If you get there – it’s good if you don’t it’s bad

I am saying: it’s all made up. It’s fiction.
It is in your head. But……
You think it is REAL.

It’s not.

But once you buy into it – you’ve given up your rights (from the play)
The good or bad
Only exists if you seek or have a goal.
No goal- no seeking – and the GOOD or BAD also disappears.

Once the good and bad is gone…….
Now what will you do?
You no longer seek or have a goal…..

How can you meditate now? You have no goal.
You don’t want to get to Sach Khand, so why meditate?
The meditation only happens if NOW is not enough for you
You live in the future – for the goal of arriving.

You sacrifice the NOW for the future.
Why? Because you seek.

No seeking… no goals… then there is only the NOW.

The good or bad only exists if you have a goal.
GOD does not have a good and a bad because he has no goals
He just witnesses and watches what we idiots are doing and has a good laugh.

(by the way – I am joking – there is no God – there is only nothing)

Once you see clearly that all you have is beliefs…
They will drop off…. And you are free from the nonsense you created.

Osho, you can't help but do wordplay, huh?
When a teacher is teaching his students, it's okay to use the word "merge", because he/she has to explain it to their students on their level.

No, it is not okay. That is what happens when the “blind lead the blind”
Then there is no hope of true understanding – ever.
It is fundamental that merging is impossible as it is a process and all processes happen in time and space.
If there was a merging – it would not be real because everything in time and space is unreal (changeable).
All that changes is unreal. Merging means change so is unreal.
If you or Jim or anyone doubts that “all that changes is unreal” then ask Gurinder at his next Q&A.

Charan Singh has already made his position clear:
“How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?” – Charan Singh
Everything within time and space is here today and gone tomorrow; therefore unreal.

Any movement (merging) is in time and space so unreal.
What does unreal mean?
It means that it is not ultimate truth – and only ultimate truth matters – not all the concepts you create in your mind.

All these ideas of Sat Lok and Anami and merging or avoiding the merging are all concepts of the mind.

WHY is it so important not to use the word Merging?
Because this confirms that the illusory state (maya) is real. And that you have to DO something to get out of it.

If you have illusory concepts and you are constantly confirming them – you will remain in the illusory state.

That is why sat mat says “the company” of the master is so important. But it is only important if the master is free. If he is also deluded – his company cannot free you, because he will just confirm that you are stuck and deluded.

Jim wrote
"Osho chooses Don't Meditate, so he will remain the excentric individual he is, while imagining he is God, still needing to work, suffer, kill, eat, sleep..."

There is no God. God is a made up concept and exists only in our minds. He is not a real entity.
So - I don't claim to be God - In fact all I claim is nothing. How can the non-existent claim to be God - or indeed anything?
I am saying there is no me
This is all illusion. Yes - it appears to be real.
It IS real in the sense that it is NOW. Just as a dream is real WHILE it is happening. But ultimately it is not real, as you find out when you wake up.
In the dream you may be in India, with Gurinder at Beas
Then you wake up and you''re just lying in your bed.
So the dream was unreal - even though it felt totally real in the dream state.

In exactly the same way - once this dream is over and the physical body dies - how then can you say this is real?

Nothing of this matters now. Nothing goes with you from this dream state to wherever you think you go.

So this is unreal. I am going further and saying the "SOUL" is also unreal.
Anything that is separate from the ONE is unreal.

If Jim's soul can hang out in Sat Lok without Anami finding him, then obviously Anami is not the ONE - He must be some imposter because there are two
Anami Purush and Jim.

Of course, all this is ludicrous anyway, as there cannot possibly be a character up there (or wherever it is) called Anami.

Just like me, He too does not exist.

The ONE I am talking about has zero attributes. The scriptures also speak of him. They say "nothing can be said" That's why he is called Anami. No names can be used to describe him - because he is emptiness and nothingness - or the absence of all attributes.

basically, he ain't naffin' you can put your finger on.

In zen is says "The master is a finger pointing to the moon"
but really it's much worse because the moon he is pointing to can't be seen - it is nothing.

Sar Bachan is basically a romanticised version of the spiritual journey. If you just use a tiny bit of logic, it soon becomes obvious that it is just a work of fiction.

How can there possibly be people, buildings and so on - in the region of pure spirituality. and how can you divide the ONE SACH KHAND into three sub-sections?

One means ONE - it cannot be sub-divided into three

it is like dividing nothing into three nothings.

Sar Bachan's description of Sat lok is a metaphor - not literal.

Osho has declared, "The is no God. God is made up of a concept, and only exists in our mind."

Osho is a formable debater, but also primarily, an unknown, "Neo-Advaita" Atheist parroting the Ramana types that have come on the scene quite recently. But if there is no God, why does any one wrote from Scriptures, or " Holy Writings?" Surely, there must have been a few Scriptues expressing a different concept of God than Osho has decided is nothing more than mind illusions.

Here are a few to consider, in rebuttal to Osho's declaration of there being no God.


IF we make a careful and unbiased study of the Sacred Books of the world we discover that the
concept of God among the ancient Chinese was similar in many respects to that of the Hindus, Buddhists and Zoroastrians. The God of the ancient Egyp­tians is not opposed to the Christian's idea of the Great First Cause. One is astounded at the numerous points of agree­ment.

From the standpoint of the absolute, or in the absolute sense, God is beyond what is known and manifested, being unsearchable, changeless, perfect, neither seen nor heard, and eternally unconditioned and undivided. God is beginningless and endless, without form and devoid of passions; He, or rather It, is too great to be fully defined by any combination of words, and for that reason is self-described.

All the Sacred Books declare that God is One; the First and the Last; from which nothing can be excluded, and to which nothing can be added.

God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, our Father and our Mother. God as Mother is the Primal Substance and the Seed of all things-yes, existence itself.

God is Breath of Breath, Spirit, Primeval Fire, Creator or Generator; and being the one great Universal, Supreme Eternally creation of all differentiation, which never changes its nature and is as unmoved as a waveless ocean, eternally uncondi­tioned and undivided."
Shrimat Shankaracharya's
Crest Jewel o f 1.llisdoyn, p. 136.

Changeless Soul, all things are threaded on God like pearls on a string. The universe is spread in God's vast Form; and the Infinite One is an Ocean into which all things flow-the Supreme Treasure House.

God is Lord of Heaven; and, being omniscient (all­ knowledge) Mind, of necessity, is of God's very Essence. This Mind is One Mind, since God is One; the All-Conserv­ing Mind, the Creative Mind, Mind of Mind.

God is not only Life, but Life of Life, Light, Truth, Love and Good.
We cannot conceive of a universe without a Law to gov­ern it; and this Law is the Good Law, the Royal Law, the Perfect Law of Liberty, the Law of Love, the Law of the Spirit of Life-an Originating and All-comprehending, Eternal Principle.

There is no variableness in God since He is eternal, im­mortal and infinite; nevertheless He is that from which every transformation arises.

The following is a digest, of a few ex­cerpts from various Sacred Books which describe the Attributes of God, yet in different wording.

"And also the Strength of Israel will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent."
-I SAMUEL 15:29.

"Forever, 0 Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.
"Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast
established the earth, and it abideth.
"They continue this day according to thine ordinances:
for all are thy servants."
-PSALMS 119:89-91.

"The Tao, considered as unchanging, has no name."
The Tao Teh King, Part I, p. 74.
"Immovable [is] God alone, and rightly [He] alone; for He Himself is in Himself, and by Himself, and round Himself, completely full and perfect.
"God, then, hath [ever] been unchanging, and ever, in like fashion, with Himself bath the Eternity consisted,­having within itself Cosmos ingenerate, which we correctly call [God] Sensible.
"Of that [transcendent] Deity this Image bath been made,-Cosmos, the imitator of Eternity."
The Perfect Sermon, Vol. II, p. 368.

"We do not recognize (Brahma as any thing percept­ible); therefore we do not know how to teach him (his nature to a disciple). It is even different from what is known (from the manifested universe; if you then say, it must be the unmanifested universe, no) it is also beyond what is not known (to the senses, it is beyond the unmanifested universe)."

"I am the Lord, I change not."

"Was that which was produced before Heaven and Earth a thing? That which made things and gave to each its char­acter was not itself a thing."
The Writings o f Kwang-Tze, Part II, p. 72.

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning halt laid the foun­dation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
"They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
"And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall
not fail." -HEBREWS 1:10-12.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." -ISAIAH 55:8, 9.

"Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable." -PSALMS 145:3.
"0 Lord that dwellest eternally, whose are the highest heavens, whose chambers are in the air, whose throne is beyond imagination, whose glory inconceivable;
Hear the voice of thy servant, give ear to thy creature's petition, and attend to my words!"

IV EZRA 8:20, 21, 24.
Vol. II, pp. 594-5.
"No man hath seen God at any time."
-I JOHN 4:12.
'The Tao cannot be heard; what can be heard is not It. The Tao cannot be seen; what can be seen is not It. The Tao cannot be expressed in words; what can be expressed in words is not It. Do we know the Formless which gives form to form? In the same way the Tao does not admit of
being named.' "
The Texts of Taoism.
The Writings o f Kwang-Tze, Part II, p. 69.

"Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and back­ward, but I cannot perceive him:
"On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I can­not see him." -JOB 23:8, 9.

"The King of kings, and Lord of lords;
"`Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." -I TIMOTHY 6:15, 16.

"Not in the sight abides his form, none beholds him by the eye. Those who know him dwelling in the heart Unsearchable "Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
"It is as high as heaven
"The measure thereof is larger broader than the sea."
than the earth, and
-JoB 11:7-9.
(ether of the heart) by the heart (pure intellect) and mind, become immortal."

"But verily thou art not able to behold Me with these throe eyes; the divine eye I give unto thee."
-THE Bhagavad-Gita, p. 113.

" `The Perfect Tao is very recondite, and by nothing else but Itself can it be described. Since ye wish to hear about it, ye cannot do so by the hearing of the ear:-that which eludes both the ears and eyes is the True Tao; what can be heard and seen perishes, and only this survives. There is (much) that you have not yet learned, and especially you have not acquired this! Till you have learned what the ears do not hear, how can the Tao be spoken about at all?"'

The Texts o f Taoism. Yu Shu King,
or the Classic o f the Pivot o f Jade, Part II, p. 266.
"As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him." -PSALMS 18:30.
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."
-PSALMS 90:2.
"Our God is a living God.
"His power fills the universe. He was before the world saw light. He will be when the world exists no more. He formed thee; with His Spirit thou breathest.

"Lao the Master said, The Great Tao has no bodily form, but It produced and nourishes heaven and earth. The Great Tao has no passions' , but It causes the sun and moon to revolve as they do.
"The Great Tao has no name, but It effects the growth and maintenance of all things.
"I do not know its name, but I make an effort, and call It the Tao."
The Texts o f Taoism.
Khing Kang King, or the Classic o f Purity, Part II, p. 249.

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: bath he said, and shall he not do it? or bath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
-NUMBERS 23:19.

"And the Father himself, which bath sent me, bath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."
"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

"Know that the Lord he is God; there is none else be­side him."

"There is but one Brahma which is Truth's self. It is from ignorance of that One that god-heads have been con­ceived to be diverse."
Udyoga Parva, Vol. III, p. 145.
"''Passions', that is, feelings, affections, as in the first of the thirty-nine Articles,"
F. 2s(1.
His bow is of fire. His arrows are of flame."
Without Form Devoid of Passions Per feet, if-described beginningless " `There is no end or beginning to the Tao.' "

The Texts o f Taoism,
The Writings of Kwang-Tze, Part I, p. 382.
-JOHN 5:37.

"The Atman, which is the substratum of the ego in man, is one: and therefore different from the physical bodies which on the other hand are many. How can this body then be the Atman?"
-RAJA YOGA PHILOSOPHY, Shrimat Shankaracharya's Aprokshanubhuti, p. 8.
"As the sun, manifesting all parts of space, above, be­tween, and below, shines resplendent, so over-rules the all­glorious adorable God, one alone, all that exists in likeness with its cause."

"The Oneness being Source and Root of all, is in all things as Root and Source. `'Without [this] Source is naught; whereas the Source [Itself] is from naught but Itself."
Corpus Hermeticum IV (V),
The Cup or Monad, Vol. II, p. 90.
"When he perceiveth the diversified existence of beings as rooted in One, and spreading forth from it, then he reacheth the eternal."

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
-ISAIAH 44:6.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
"In the essence of Suchness (God), there is neither any­thing which has to be excluded, nor anything which has to be added."
"The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." -REVELATION 19:16.
"I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."
-GENESIS 17:1.
"Holy art Thou, more powerful than all power. Holy art Thou, transcending all pre-eminence."
Poemandres, the Shepherd o f Men, Vol. II, p. 19.
"The energy of God is Power that naught can e'er sur­pass, a Power with which no one can make comparison of any human thing at all, or any thing divine."
Mind Unto Hermes, Vol. II, p. 178.
"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
"If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
"Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me."
-PSALMS 139:7-10.
The First and the Last
"That they should seek the Lord, if happily they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us."
-ACTS 17:27.

Nothing 11. "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for Excluded, Nothing Added ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it." -ECCLESIASTES 3:4.

"May the one God, who, like the spider, through his own nature, encases himself with many threads, which are produced by the first (cause, Pradhana, nature), grant us identity with Brahma,­
"The one God, who is concealed in all beings, who per­vades all, who is the inner soul of all beings, the ruler of all actions, who dwells in all beings, the witness, who is mere thinking, and without qualities."

"Whoever knows the God who is without commence­ment, without end, who within this impervious (world) is the creator of the universe, who is of an infinite form, the one penetrates of the universe, becomes liberated from all bonds."

Omniscient 14. "In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

"Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."
-MATTHEW 10:26.

"0 Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
"Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
-PSALMS 139:1, 2, 6.
"The Master said, `The Tao does not exhaust itself in what is greatest, nor is it ever absent from what is least; and therefore it is to be found complete and diffused in all things. How wide is its universal comprehension! How deep is its unfathomableness! The embodiment of its attri­
butes in benevolence and righteousness is but a small result of its spirit-like (working); but it is only the perfect man who can determine this. The perfect man has (the charge of) the world;-is not the charge great?"'
The Texts of Taoism.
The Writings o f Kwang-Tze, Part I, p. 342.
"So there is nothing that cannot be perceived by it, [that is, the world of relativity is submerged in the oneness of Suchness] (God). Thence we assign to Suchness this quality, the universal illumination of the universe."
"Helping and guarding, guarding behind and guarding in front, Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, proves an and un­ceivable spy and watcher for the man to whom he comes to help with all the strength of his soul, he of the ten thousand spies, the powerful, all-knowing, undeceivable god."

"But I think thus in my heart:
" `Should the evil thoughts of the earthly man be a hun­dred times worse, they would not rise so high as the good thoughts of the heavenly Mithra;
. " `Should the heavenly wisdom in the earthly man be a hundred times greater, it would not rise so high as the heavenly wisdom in the heavenly Mithra."'
The Zend-Avesta.
The Yasts and SiYOZahs, Part II, pp. 131 and 146-7.
"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."
"Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, 0 Lord,
art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting." -ISAIAH 63:16.

"This is the Monad which is incomprehensible or un­knowable; this it is which has no Seal (or Mark), in which are all Seals; which is blessed for ever and ever. This is the eternal Father; this the ineffable, unthinkable, incompre­hensible, untranscendible Father; this it is in which the All become joyous."
-FRAGMENTS OF A FAITH FORGOTTEN) Codex Brucianus, pp. 549, 550.
"I the Father of this universe, the Mother, the Sup­porter, the Grandsire, the Holy One to be known, the Word of Power."
"Thus it is that the Tao produces (all things), nourishes them, brings them to their full growth, nurses them, com­pletes them, matures them, maintains them, and overspreads them."
-THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE EAST, Vol. XXXIX, The Texts o f Taoism.
The Tao Teh King, Part I, p. 94.
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
-I JOHN 5:7.
"The Tao produced One; One produced Two; Two pro­duced Three; Three produced All things."
The Texts of Taoism.
The Tao Te1a King, Part I, p. 85.
" `Hail, My brethren and My children. Let there be with you the peace of My Father, which is thine, which I received from My Father, so that I might make it to remain with you for all time.' And He breathed on their faces and said, `Receive ye the Holy Spirit.' "
The Book o f the Resurrection o f Jesus Christ,
By Bartholomew the Apostle, p. 205.
"They are even father, mother and child; mind is even the father, speech the mother, and life the child." -BRIHAD ARANYAKA UPANISHAD, p. 222.
"The Mahayana has a triple significance. "The first is the greatness of quintessence. "The second is the greatness of attributes. "The third is the greatness of activity."
"The Mind of the Father uttered [the Word] that all should be divided [or cut] into three. His Will nodded assent, and at once all things were so divided.

"He who governs all things with the Mind of the eternal.
"In every cosmos there shineth [or is manifested] a Triad, of which a Monad is source.
"All things are served in the Gulphs of the Triad. "From this Triad the Father mixed every spirit.
"Arming both mind and soul with triple Might." -ECHOES FROM THE GNOSIS,
The ChaldrPan Oracles, Vol. VIII, pp. 51-54.

Seed of All Things
"From Him is the seed of all things, and it is He that upholds the Earth with all her mobile and immobile creatures."
Canti Parva, Vol. VIII, p. 883.
"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bear­ing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."
-GENESIS 1:29.
"For he will finish the work, and cut it short in right­eousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
"And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."
-ROMANS 9:28, 29.
("Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minis­ter bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness; )
"Being enriched in everything to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God."
"The Atman is permanent, eternal and therefore exis­tence itself."
Shrimat Shankaracharya's Aprokshanubhuti, p. 6.
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
"Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things."

"All is the effect of all, one universal Essence."

"This soul is Brahma, and stands as the soul and sub­stance of the universe."
Shrimat Shankaracharya's AProkshanubhuti, p. 13.
"I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
"My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and
my revenue than choice silver.
"I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the
paths of judgment:
"That I may cause those that love me to inherit sub­
stance; and I will fill their treasures."
-PROVERBS 8:12, 19-21.

"0 Primal Origin of my origination; Thou Primal Primal Substance of my substance; First Breath of breath, the substance breath that is in me." Breath of
A Mithriac Ritual, Vol. VI, Pp. 18, 19.

"The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones.
"Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
"And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
"Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, pro­phesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord
Universal Essence
Substance Existence Itself
-ACTS 17:24, 25.

God; Come from the four winds, 0 breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
"So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great army."
-EZEKIEL 37:1, 5, 6, 9, 10.

"But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; ... and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, bast thou not glorified."
-DANIEL 5:23.

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must wor­ship him in spirit and in truth."
"Of this same Spirit, of which I have already spoken many times, all things have need; for that it raises up all things, each in its own degree, and makes them live, and gives them nourishment."
Cyril o f Alexandria,
Fragment XVIIZ, p. 259.

"The Lord, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem."
-ISAIAH 31:9.

"But who may abide the day of his coming~ and who shall stand when he appeareth% for he is like refiner's fire, and like fullers' sope."
"The Third Utterance (Logos)
"Hear me, give ear to me - ... Creator of the Light; 0 Holder of the Keys; Inbreather of the Fire; Fire-hearted
One, whose Breath gives Light; ... 0 Lord of Light, whose Body is of Fire."

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
"I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."
"For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that mak­eth the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high place of the earth, The Lord, The God of hosts, is his name."
-AMOS 4:13.
"Indeed, I have no hope that the Creator of the whole o Greatness, the Father and the Lord of all the things (tha are), could ever have one name. He who cannot b named, or rather He who can be called by every name.
"For He, indeed, is One and All.
"He, then, alone, yet all-complete in the fertility c either sex, ever with child of His own Will, doth ever brie to birth whatever He bath willed to procreate.
"His Will is the All-goodness, which also is the Goon ness of all things, born from the nature of His ova Divinity."
The Perfect SeYynon, Vol. II, p. 344.
A Mithriac Ritual, Vol. VI, p. 25.
-JOHN 1:3.
-ISAIAH 45:12.
-JOHN 4:24.

"His being is conceiving of all things and making (them). He ever makes all things, in heaven, in air, in earth, in deep, in all of cosmos, in every part that is and that is not of everything. For there is naught in all the world that is not He."
Corpus Hermeticum V. (VI.) Though Unmani f est God is Most Manifest.
Vol. II, p. 104.
"l am the Generator of all; all evolves from Me." -THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, P. 104.
bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow." -DEUTERONOMY 28:12.
"He hath made the earth by his power, he hath estab­lished the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
"When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures."
-JEREMIAH 10:12, 13.
Threaded on

"There is naught whatsoever higher than I.... All this

"Just as the rivers of all lands, God Like Pearls on a String is threaded on Me, as rows of pearls on a string."

Into the ocean find their way,
May gods and men from every world

Universe Spread

"First of the Gods, most ancient Man Thou art,

Approach and find their way to thee."
in God's Form

Supreme receptacle of all that lives;
Knower and known, the dwelling-place on high;
In Thy vast Form the universe is spread.

Jataka, p. 31.
"To us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him."
Supreme Treasure-House
"In power boundless, measureless in strength, Thou holdest all: then Thou Thyself art All." -THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, pp. 122-3.
"Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord bath wrought this?
"In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind."
-JOB 12:9, 10.

"Lofty, beyond all thought, unperishing,
Thou treasure-house supreme, all-immanent." -THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, p. 116.
"The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to

"All this universe has the (Supreme) Deity for its life. Univer. That Deity is Truth. He is the Universal Soul....
"That particle which is the Soul of all this is Truth; it is the Universal Soul."

"God is as a soul and the world as a body." -MASNAVI I MA'NAVI, p. 29.

"The Supreme Soul hath another name, viz, Pure Knowledge."
Udyoga Parva, Vol. III, p. 162.

Lord of

I can say there is no God. I can say there is only the ONE, or I can call it nothing. Or I could say that GOD is all there is and nothing else exists.

It doesn't matter which words I use - it is not about the words.

Words are play things.

The issue is that the word God means different things to different people.

The question can be answered many ways.

When the Buddha was asked - he remained silent.

When I say God does not exist, i am talking about the God that I make fun of. The God who has attributes: The Personal God. Like a being - like Anami.
All knowing, all powerful, all love, A good God.
No such being exists.

here is krishnamurti on the question "Is there a God - give me a straight answer"


The RSSB guru travels in private airplanes and in high end cars with high level security, his son is the CEO of a multimillion dollar company, his wife has million dollar stocks to her name, his relatives are rich billionaires. It's totally fine if you're a businessman and doing all this with your "earned" money but it doesn't look so good when you are operating a spiritual organization that preaches that you should not fixate on acquiring materialistic things in life and that main focus of life should be meditating and realizing god. All the donations that are being made by the people thinking it's going to be used by their master for some greater good is sadly just used for land hoarding all across India in almost every single city to build satsang centres on vast acres of expensive land. For what ? To open them up for 2 hours once a week on Sunday to repeat the same satsang over and over again. It's so sad to see people instead of helping each other are investing so much of their time and resources into organizations and "babas" like
this especially in a country like India where so many die due to hunger and poverty everyday. They claim that everyone is equal in eye of babaji yet they have they have different boarding houses for foreigners, NRI and just common local people. They even have a different seating plan based on your level of income and your country of origin. If you are rich and famous or from another country you sit in the front. They even discriminate on basis of colour if you're white you sit in the front and if your brown you sit behind the white people. There are so many more things that just don't seem so spiritual about this spiritual organization. No one has any luck even after years of meditation. Those who claim that they do, the ones I have met so far are my grandparents and it turns out their electrolytes were out of balance and they were confused and hallucinating. Sadly, few people like this make other believe that this stuff is true. You know another persons hallucinations about god turns into another persons religion kind of thing.

A Mystic Who made a Difference: Charan Singh, by an Anonomous writer

A MYSTIC is neither a necromancer nor a spiritual solipsist, not even a theologian, adept in the art of séances, mediums and the like, but the one who has a direct experience of the Eternal Being, who has tasted the elixir of divine knowledge without making any formal use of his ratiocinative faculties, and who, by his sheer grace, can illuminate human minds enmeshed in gross ignorance. Maharaj Charan Singh, the fourth spiritual Master o[ Radhasoami Sat-sang, with its headquarters at Beas, was a selfless mystic the Logos in human form , whose mind and soul remained attuned to the Supreme• Self, even while he was performing his duties in the terrestrial region.

But he was no ordinary mystic, who, in his bid to merge with the divine nature, would don the garment of a hermit and lead a life, of quietude, or go on demonstrating his Psi abilities of ecsomatic experiences to win accolades from people around. Rather, he preferred the life of a householder, in the true Tradition of Bhakti reformers, without making any high claims about himself. "'The doctrine is not my own. Every mystic has been giving us the same teachings", he said. His spiritual attainment did not turn him into a recluse or a religious salesman, but activated his propensity to serve humanity as per the requirements of time. He was both recipient of Supreme Knowledge, and the agent for its spread among a large section of people both in India and abroad.

Even Though comparisons between god men may look odious• if not supercilious, as They are shaped in different milieus and cater to the varying needs of human beings, ordinary mortals like this author- may not be able to restrain Themselves from making such a venture.

Maharaj Charan Singh did not like Satya Sai Baba, materialize things from air such as cardamoms, candies, watches or Vibhuti to leave a magical spell on his audiences, because he disapproved of psychism as a means to restoring faith in things supernal. Such actions, he argued, left a very injurious effect on the mind and the will power of tile performer, without helping him in any way. The Maharaj was never a Socrates to his detractors like Osho Rajneesh, but a Buddha in whose presence all questions and misgivings melted away. He remained virtually non-controversial, and never entered into the ping-pong of debate, even though he was a bachelor of laws, and once a practicing lawyer of standing.

Unlike Jiddu Krishnamurti, he did not always employ a strict philosophical idiom, with its ontological and epistemological ramifications, during the course of his talks; the reason being that his audiences included people of all types, ranging from the strictly academic to the completely illiterate. Nor did he agree with him that one could gain realization without the guidance of a guru.

In physical appearance, Maharaj Charan Singh was perhaps the handsomest of them all -- his face emitting pink, and his superb carriage and erect backbone giving him a majestic look. Like Osho and Krishnamurti, he had a sparkling pair of eyes which appeared to he soaring high into tile sky, trying to unravel the mystery of the universe. Hia- bearded appearance reminded one of the seers of your wondering in the Himalayas, And even of Mahesh Yogi, although the latter did not sup­port a headgear. But he was no whirling dervish, nor a holy man in saffron or gaudy apparel. In his simple attire he was a veritable image of serenely which fascinated one and all. His musical voice and rhythmic movements reminded one of Swami Vivecananda, and in more recent times, of Osho and Chinmayananda. His large following was matched only by that of Satya Sai Baba and Dada Ji.

Maharaj Charan Singh was tile spiritual Pied piper who did not merely enchant the people by the music of his soul, but also taught them how to blow their own "pipe", and hear the divine melody eternally resounding within them. In the process, a cult grew around him but he did not, at any stage, wished to be apotheosized. He never allowed anyone to touch his feet because of his firm faith in the dignity of man. Nor did he spend a single penny of the organization which he headed for his personal use. He transformed tile dilapidated Dera of Baba Jaimal Singh into a virtual township, and provided it a holiness and sanctity which goes with the name of ancient cities like Benaras and Hardwar, sans their dirt and dust, and occasional inhuman practices.
If one were looking for a place where one can find spiritual solace as well as the basic amenities of life at the minimum price, where one can find the spirit of sewa at its best, where politics and commercialized activities are discouraged, where no distinction is made between man and man, where people belonging to all reli­gions socialise in a more or less brotherly manner, and where the presence of the Master can be felt even in his physical absence, one should immediately turn to Beas.

During the spiritual stewardship of Maharaj Charan Singh (1951-1990) the Derv presented a supreme example of how community work could be done in a voluntary way, on such a large scale, and how religion could be put to better use for serving humanity. The functioning of langar, or the community kitchen, and Maharaja Saran Singh. Charitable Memorial Hospital, built at a cost of more than Rs 9 crore, with the physical, mental and material services of devotees, is a clear case in point.

Maharaj Charan Singh's teachings were so simple chat even the man in the street could grasp them, without making much effort. Based, as these were, on his own spiritual experiences and the discoveries of saints and seers in the realm of being, they were neither characterized by vaguer eclecticism or mystical imagery, nor by metaphysical jugglery. He laid emphasis on the essence and not on palliatives or platitudes. There was no place for bigotry or fanaticism in his thought nor for meaningless rituals or superstitions. He emphasized that religious intolerance was born of sick minds, for did any holy man ever try to divide humanity?'

"Every saint has the same message to give, and' the same ' teachings to impart.... No perfect Master comes into this world to create a religion ... to 'set one nation against another, or one religion against another. They come only to show us the way which leads us back to our original home. After a Master departs, people generally turn to rites and rituals, and give his lofty teachings the form of an organized religion. Then we become bigoted, we start fighting and quarreling with one another, and tile real teachings of the saint are soon forgotten," he said.
The predicament of man was that even though he reflected the light of the divine being, he had come under the spell of the vicious tendencies of the mind and forgotten the real purpose of life. Man had failed to see the ephemeral nature of sensory pleasures and the dangers inherent in the proliferation of ego. As a result, he was cut off from the audible life stream or Shabad, and had lost sight of his divine home and divine origin.

Like a psychologist, Maharaj Charan Singh laid bare the intricacies of the human mind which had the bad habit of flitting from one object to another, and yet remaining unfulfilled. "We contact the outside world through the mind and the senses, but the tragedy is that the mind itself has been enslaved by the senses and has thus acquired a downward tendency. Fond of pleasure by nature ... no object in the world can hold it for ever, or even for any length of time. If we can withdraw it from the outside world and make it "go in", it will catch the divine melody which is echoing in all of us," he explained.

The fickleness o[ human mind cannot be adequately checked by ritualistic observances, austere discipline or penitential deeds, even though these may have a tranquilizing effect. But how long can sedatives work it the basic problem persists? "The fire is only covered with ashes and will flare up again when the wind of the (five) passions blows". Only by entering a no-mind state, can man hope to alleviate his bruised spirit and gain peace in turn. That can be possible by raising one's consciousness to Trikuti, by way of Nam Bhakti. "We do not have to go far to find Nam",he said. "It is within us. That part of the body from the eyes upwards is the seat of Nam. There are nine openings, or doors, in the body from the eyes downward. It is through these that the mind spreads out into the world. It should not be permitted to roam about there. It must be withdrawn from the world and the nine openings, and brought back to 'Tisra Til', the 'Third eye', which is the seat of the mind and the soul, and held there."

The tragedy of the majority of people was that they failed to distinguish between Varnat-mak Nam and Dunyatmak Nam. The former, signifying words that could be uttered or spoken (viz. Rams, Krishna, Wahe guru, Allah), served onlyas to concentration, and from age to age, and unity to community. The latter,on the other hand, rep­resented the unspoken and the unwitten word, and could lead one forth supreme realization. It transcended pace and causation, and yet had a local habitat within us where it could be contacted. The Maharaj admonishedthat devotion to Varnatmak Nam to the exclusion Dhunyatmak Nam led to partisan cries", "bigotry" or fanaticism", while devotion to Dhunyatmak Nam made us rise above "castes and creeds, wars and strifes", for, in that we saw "the divine in all.

The sound current variously referred to as Shabad, Dhun, Akashvani, Kalma, Kun, Bangillahi, Nad-i-Asmani or the Logos, in different religious traditions found an able exegete in Maharaj Charan Singh who described it as the substance of existence. But realization could not be achieved by browsing through books, undertaking fasts of pilgrimages adopting a peculiar life or visiting places of worship. It is within oneself that one must seek Him.. Unlike orthodox Sikhs, he laid emphasis on the need for a spiritual Master, who could,’ through Nam Dan lead one towards the path which connects the soul of the disciple to the sound current.. Initiation was not a shallow ritual or a ceremony of sorts, but the birth of a new soul. He, however, made it clear that it would be futile to expect miraculous results immediately after initiation. Since the secret of withdrawing the consciousness to the eye center before linking it to the word lay with the perfect Master, it was expected of the devotee to have an ardent faith ii him, , and to follow his teachings without any inhibition or hesitation. Maharaja Charan Singh often quoted from the Bible and the Adi Granth to prove his point. "He that bath seen me bath seen the Father ... Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me", says Jesus Christ. Guru Aryan Use corroborates the idea thus: "Within me the Father has revealed Himself; Father and Son have met and become one. Says Nanak, when the Father is pleased, the Father and the Son are dyed in one hub."

Sat sang, or true association with the Master was essential for cleansing one's mind of all imperfections, for achieving inner harmony, and for acquiring the attitude of a gurmukh who lives unsullied in the world as the duck remains in water. However, the highest form of Satsang was to be one with one's inner self. Jealousy, pride and ego were poisons, more dangerous than the venom of cobra, in so far as the spiritual ascension of a person was concerned. The only antidote to these "substances" was Simran•and Bhajan. The former involved the repetition of the Five Holy Names according to the prescribed technique revealed to the disciple at tin time of initiation. The latter signified meditation, during the course of which one did simran and dhyana (contemplation), and listened to the Eternal Sound. It may be noted that while in the Yoga and Tantra schools consciousness is normally awakened by piercing subtle centers, one by one, starting with the Muladhara, the Radhasoamis begin with the Ajna Chakra deliberately ignoring the lower centers, and focus their attention between the two eyebrows.

Maharaj Chran Singh, like most Indian seers and philo­sophers, believed in Karma - the Universal law of cause and effect - according to which man was punished or reward (led for his bad and good deeds, respectively, and continued to undergo the process of birth and death till his account was cleared. "Every one wears the . letters of Karma, be he' prince or beggar, rich or poor, man or woman", he said. "It is Karma which keeps us in the prison of flesh. If we do good deeds, we may be born as princes or rich men; but this does not bring about liberation from the wheel of birth and death. Instead of being 'C' class prisoners, merely become 'A' class prisoners; but we are still in jail." The union of the human soul with the sound current alone can nullify the cycle of karma.

All this should not he taken to mean that Maharaj Charan Singh's gospel bordered on fatalism. In fact, held, that the doctrine of Karma was not against "making any effort", nor did it promote exclusion from family or societal responsibilities. In a letter to his disiciple he once wrote, “My advice is that you go on honestly and conscientiously with your work ... It behooves us, to live and act in such a way that we may not feel ashamed before Him." He asked his disciples to refrain from alcoholic drinks and other intoxicants as also to take a purely vegetarian diet. the reason being that stimulants and animal food were baneful to spiritual growth, and sometimes wrecked even the physical organism.

Maharaj Charan Singh brought about a metamorphosis in the life of a large segment of his initiates. Not that, all of them became able to open their third eye, but they, at least, learnt the true art of living. Many among them ceased to be drug, addicts, alcoholics, wife-beaters or peddlers in illicit and inhuman trades. Many others experienced the spiritual ecstasy they had so ardently desired before coming under his spell, and for the attainment of which they had moved from one spiritual preceptor to another. At a time when mankind is undergoing a climacterically phase, Maharaj Charan Singh's words instantly echo in my mind:

"Please remember that peace lies within you and not anywhere outside. Live harmoniously, - love each other, and follow the principles of give and take, forgive and forget, and you will find how happy and peaceful your life will become ... The root of all troubles lies in the mind within you, and wherever you go, you will carry it with you ... We are not to run away from, life like cowards, but to face it like the brave, ignoring and overlooking faults and weaknesses, and treating life's turmoil’s with indifference."

Above, we have two opposite view of RSSB. Reet is against the current Guru - and he gives his reasons - mainly that he is a businessman - yet he tells people that meditation is the important thing - while he focuses on building wealth here on earth.

The second holds up Charan Singh as an exceptional human being and a guru who taught the sant mat path to millions of followers.

These are just views. It means that person has a certain opinion about what is true.

All this is about belief: based on opinion and perception.

What is opinion? It is MY view. What I consider to be true.

How is that important? Especially if my track record is not good.

Take the example of Gordon Ramsay in Kitchen Nightmares

Just about EVERY SINGLE restaurant that he goes to has the same scenario:

Deluded owner thinks "MY FOOD is amazing and the BEST"

One owner said "When he tries my food, he will be doing somersaults. It is that good."

Then when Gordon Ramsay eats the food - it is not even edible and he tellls them their food is shit.

They "Disagree"

So what?

Of course they disagree. They are deluded.

It doesn't matter if a deluded person disagrees.

Gordon has a track record of success. He is an established authority. He knows what he is talking about.

They on the other hand have a failing restaurant.

Yet - without exception they always say "I KNOW my food is good. Gordon does not know my market. My customers love my food."

When Gordon says "What customers? You restaurant is empty" they have no reply.

Now here is the point:

In order to move forward and break out of delusion there are specific steps.

Step 1: drop your opinion: it is irrelevant. It is not valuable, yet you value it and it is the reason you cannot see beyond your nose.

Step 2: become open to the possibility that you are completely wrong and the opinions you have valued all your life are WRONG

Step 3: listen to the "GURU" with an open mind and without the prejudice of your previous opinions. Only then can new possibilities open up.

Now of course someone could say the same to me: and they are quite correct - if I am deluded, which of course Jim and Goku and Jeff will say I am.

But what is their authority? None of them have gotten anywhere. Jim at least has some inner experience - the other two have none.

That is the exact process I went through when I was a devoted sant mat follower.

When I met my first "advaita" guru, I thought he was just deluded and I tried to explain to him that there ARE regions and that I can take him to people who have been there.

My first view was "You're a not case - you're talking complete nonsense"

Then slowly it became "Hmmm.... it's POSSIBLE, I guess, but I am not convinced"

then.... "Hmm... quite possible... but tell me more....."

next it became: "WOW this makes sense - but can I get there...."

finally.... "How can I get there?"

Of course his reply was that I was already there, because there is no place to arrive at. It is just a matter of realisation and that happens only when you drop the opinions that cloud your thinking.

However, all this remained intellectual despite all the time I spent with him.

Then, a year later, I went through a painful experience and while I was going through the pain and contemplating suicide - it all suddenly made sense.

Everything he has said to me suddenly made complete sense and I could see clearly it was the only possibility.

So clear in fact that I could not see how I did not "get it" when he was talking to me.

Then, I went to master no 2: who in four intense days of confrontation changed my whole perception of reality and at the end of that - there was no "ME"

Now all this is nonsense to everyone except me.

Everyone can argue from their point of view.

But it's irrelevant.

because I have not acquired new beliefs.

I have dropped the old beliefs and what is left is nothing.

That "nothing" is what I call enlightenment

and the reason that Jim and Goku and Jeff don't believe me is that this "nothing" does not tick the boxes for them.

It cannot tick the boxes - because it is not what they are seeking. It doesn't fit their notion of enlightenment.

It never does - it cannot. It doesn't even fit mine.

The concept can never be the reality, because the concept is wrong.

If I go to India for the first time - it will not be how I thought it would be.

But how it is, it the reality. What I thought it would be is fiction.

The fiction cannot match the reality.

Enlightenment can never match your opinion of it.

And to make it worse - no two enlightened persons agree.

because it's not even the same thing - each has their own way of describing the indescribably unique thing - which is not even a thing.

How can you describe "There is no ME" when clearly everyone can see there is!

it is impossible for anyone to agree

and agreement is not even required

Quote 777 : “ … no humble-fixation today :-)”.

Mea culpa (*Insert Rueful-Smile Emoji*)

I truly wish I’d had better self-control, at that point.

Osho Robbins, I’m sorry I snapped out at you there.

I can see why I did it. Perhaps you can, as well? Basically, I had taken your words here at face value (a courtesy I extent to everybody to begin with, and persist with unless I see any reason not to), and was trying to see if I couldn’t learn something myself from your “realization” (not your theories, but your bare-bones realization). Subsequent interactions with you made it clear that your posturing is here nothing more than just that, a pose. In so much as you claim a realization that is different from a mere (and trivial) acknowledgement that all beliefs are simply beliefs, you are merely a poseur and a phony (or, if not that, then seriously deluded and possibly in need of help). I don’t know this for sure, of course, no one can know with 100% accuracy about another’s state of being (and much less from short online interactions), but that’s my view about your online persona at least as I see it here, and it’s close enough for my personal satisfaction that you’re no seer, and your “realization” not worth wasting time on. And my apparent irritation at you was basically an expression of my irritation with my own self, for having wasted so much time on you. But on reflection, that irritation (directed at myself) also was unfounded, because it is only by expending some time and energy that one can evaluate claims like this. Not knowing beforehand what one came to know only later, that is perfectly natural.

I stand by the content of all that I said to you, in that last comment of mine, all of it, cent per cent. Nevertheless, the discourteous tone and language in my comment, and especially the masked profanity, that I do regret deeply and apologize for. It’s too late now, but I do wish I’d worked my impatience off and been more in control of myself before clicking on the “post” button on that comment. I won’t make a nuisance of myself by asking Brian, yet again, to delete that comment, but I can and do offer you my sincere apologies.


In any case, your discussion with the Babaji of RSSB (and your first-hand account of Gurinder Sing’s apparently innovative views of Oneness), which after all was the main topic in the article proper, that remains a very interesting contribution to RSSB discourse. Interesting even to an outsider like me, and probably invaluable to an actual RSSB-ite, irrespective of how they resolve the issue for themselves. For that contribution (about Gurinder Sing’s answer to the question you asked there) you certainly deserve kudos.

If you can take all this impersonally, and can take criticism directed at your own religious beliefs as easily as you direct them at others’ religious beliefs, then I’d be happy to continue discussing other issues with you, as one does with everyone else here. As for my further comments to you : you musntn’t mind being spoken to, at times, in a manner not dissimilar to what you use yourself, at least when your own religious faith is the issue under discussion. My only view in such case will be to point out the absurdity of your religious beliefs. No offense, I hope?

The idea that the Master can be within you, can be one with you, "The Father and I are one", is neither imaginary or absurd. It is sacred.

The idea that Master comes at death for His allotted and takes them either to a place in Spirit to complete their work, into another physical birth, or home to Sach Kand is not fable. It is simply the mechanics of salvation.

These are the testimonies of what lay ahead by those who have gone there many times and returned; to reunite. They are part of a Faith in what is yet unseen.

If you understand that the notion of conscious awareness and perception is nothing more than an intellectual, an artificial construction, and that it doesn't actually exist, then it's not so difficult to understand how the human mind symbolizes all of reality in one way or another, including spiritual reality. You can say it isn't real or you can say it is the natural way for the human mind to understand what is beyond human conception (but not beyond comprehension).

To claim "that's an imaginary symbol" applies to every element of "conscious" awareness and unconscious awareness. All of those elements have a basis in some reality.

Master within is what the mind can understand and actually sees within, beyond imagination. But beyond mind there is Spirit. It has its details. It isn't vague. It isn't an empty darkness we project imagination upon. There really are places you can go by going within. In fact it is the only way to actually travel. But it is too complex for human comprehension.

The mind cannot grasp it, but the soul sees it with much greater clarity than we perceive this place.

To be in the presence of the Master is not absurd at all. For Him to be everywhere at once and for all time, either within, or physically present wherever He pleases in this relative place, is nothing more than physical reality. Here, where matter and energy are two formats for the same thing, where all that we see as solid matter is mostly empty space, and fields of energy projected over vast distances, is not imagination.

The empty room we perceive is full. The darkness we see isn't dark.

Imagination is what you see around you, what your brain does to handle sensation and give you a model you can deal with.

One Initiated, I’ve read the main RSSB book written by Julian Johnston, and while I don’t have that book with me right now and can’t refer the exact portion at this time, I do remember he said there that RSSB meditation begins from the Ajna Chakra. The “eye center” has been mentioned plenty of times in this blog as well (in Brian’s articles as well as in comments), and the eye center corresponds exactly with the Ajna Chakra. To that extent at least, RSSB meditation does seem to involve Chakras (or at least “Chakra”, singular). But of course that’s just a detail, and I found it very interesting, your statement that most of your actual experiences you’ve felt you’ve had at the crown region. (And the reason I brought up Chakras may be obvious to you : in Kundalini practice, they hold that activation of individual Chakras can open you up to experiences that are comparable to going off to other planes of existence, complete with visions and sights and sounds. I was wondering how that might relate with RSSB practice, a rather obvious correlation.)

Don’t worry, absolutely no offense at all! (Your less than flattering opinion on Tantra, I mean.) I do practice some meditations myself (or try to), but I’m by no means personally invested in the theology behind it. If it turns out they’re right, great. If not, well that’s great too. There are other avenues to try, then, if one still has the inclination and the time.

Incidentally, not that it’s anything to do with me personally, but I’m glad you appreciate Manjit’s account of his experiences, your surface disagreements notwithstanding. As someone on a roughly similar journey / path, wouldn’t you agree that he seems to be an astounding prodigy? The difference between his experiences, especially the early ones, and those of an adult who deliberately strives for and arrives at this sort of thing, would seem to be the difference an outstandingly talented (musical) child prodigy, and a competent and trained adult musician. Two very different categories there. You may not agree with his theology, but his journey (taken at face value) remains very remarkable!

Quote Osho Robbins : Appreciative reader, I was somewhat amused and surprised …

That is one lame comment. A lamer response than that you’d be hard-put to make, or find. Re-read that entire comment of yours, if you would : don’t you find it perfectly cringe-making yourself?

I do whatever I feel like.

So do I, I assure you. And so do most people I know. That isn’t exactly remarkable, you know.

I am merely enjoying the moment here

Are you, now? Your enjoyment, as demonstrated in this particular comment, seems kind of forced to me! But hey, whatever you say. I’m glad you’re really enjoying this, because that helps assuage my instinctive guilt at calling you out and making you look ridiculous here (or rather, at making obvious here the intrinsic ridiculousness of your pose).

…I do whatever I feel like…I am merely enjoying the moment here…

This whole comment of yours, and especially your repeated parroting out of those two Zen-ic chestnuts, seem far less like actual words of wisdom than unthinking parody. And not particularly artful parody either, here, more like the Three Stooges. Good for a laugh, though.

the big issue you created in your mind about revealing your email is a non issue.
You just go to Hotmail or Gmail and press on create account
and create a new email. Then delete it once finished.
That was so easy

That’s a truly brilliant comment, and such an illuminating piece of information. Thank you for making so very clear, with this comment, the level of your discourse.

I have no doubt at all, now, that your descriptions of your alleged realization (should you ever “feel like” getting down to it) will be just as illuminating.

It’s a real pleasure (a real hoot, I mean to say) getting to know you and thought processes.

I have no idea why you went off the deep end…

What makes you imagine I went off some deep end? All that is only in your mind.

You are looking for “ideas” about people and things (and are surprised when you don’t find them) because you are mired in the ephemeral and unreal world of ideas. That is not the correct way to behave when you are speaking with a master. The master leads you in ways you cannot begin to comprehend, to bring about changes in your psychic make-up that you cannot begin to conceive. Never try to look for reasons why the master acts as he does, says what he says, or types what he types. That is not the way of the Path of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I do and say whatever I feel like, man. I was only enjoying the moment.


My first instinct was to take especial care not to muddy your online reputation here. That is why I’d requested Brian to delete those two comments of mine. But hey, someone who scratches blithely away at others’ hallowed beliefs should surely be able to take a scratching away of their own cherished beliefs and absurd posturing (even those irrational beliefs that they are supremely unaware of)? Fair game, wouldn’t you say?

And if you can see this at all impersonally, then perhaps we can even enjoy discussing all of this amicably and clearly! You know, enjoy the moment. Of course, only if you feel like it. And also, only if I also feel like it. And also, only if Brian also feels like continuing to host such discussion on his website. Only if all of us feel like it. :-)


Despite being an outsider to both RSSB and Advaita, may I add my two cents’ worth here?

I’m posting this comment here in all seriousness, and would be happy for critical inputs. Well-reasoned criticism to what I’m saying is very welcome, from the RSSB Camp, as well as Athiest Camp, as well as the Advaita Camp (which includes you Osho Robbins, seriously, if you wish to contribute your comments). This issue seems blindingly clear to me, and when one is blindingly clear about something that seems to confound other people, it usually is best to ask for feedback to see if one isn’t blinded oneself in some way.

First of all, the only truly objective and scientific view is materialism.

This seems self-evident, because that is how the words “objective” and “scientific” are defined (with accepted rules like Occam’s Razor and so forth), so this is more a tautological assertion than a real argument per se. I’m not saying this is necessarily the *truth*, but this would be the reasonable null hypothesis. Any deviations from this null hypothesis, whether Advaitic or Sant-Mat-ic, will require validation via objective evidence.

Second of all, every religious belief is essentially subjective.

This again is tautological. But this is important, because it is not always clear to believers that what they believe is actually subjective. For instance, RSSB meditators have some experiences, which are subjective experiences, and they interpret those experiences in a certain way, which is a subjective interpretation of subjective experiences. This is not to deride RSSB meditation, but to merely point out that this is strictly subjective.

Now here’s the fun part. Amazingly, we have Osho Robbins commenting away here about the subjectivity of RSSB dogma, not realizing that the Advaita dogma that he subscribes to is equally subjective and equally religious. It’s been an amazing show, his unending discourses on how many angels can pirouette away on the tip of the needle.

Advaita’s key belief of a Single Consciousness is, equally, a speculation (or, if you believe in it as truth, then a religious belief). Again, I don’t say this to deride Advaita, or even to say it is wrong, but merely to emphasize that it is subjective. I myself suspect that Osho Robbins could be trolling here, simply gassing away about non-existent “realizations” that never happened, but let’s give him the benefit of the doubt, shall we, for the sake of the argument. So, he’s had these experiences, culminating in his realization of Oneness/Nothingness. So what? That also is a wholly subjective experience! And all of this has led him to a certain conclusion about “Oneness” -- Again, so what? That conclusion too is purely personal and subjective ! And his faith in his personal conclusion is exactly what religious belief is. Surely that’s obvious to anyone who isn’t wholly blindsided by their religious belief?

Thirdly, looking at Tantric and Sufi traditions of spiritual practice shows you something.

When you accept a master, then you follow what they say without necessarily exercising your intellect overly much. The idea is that these masters are aware of truths at levels beyond what is available to the novice or disciple, so the disciple isn’t equipped to evaluate those statements rationally. (Just like a cat, to paraphrase what Brian said elsewhere in a different context, can’t reason out how a car works, no matter how much it tries, and no matter how detailed the explanations.) And besides, the master sometimes does things for effect, to bring about transformation in the disciple. It isn’t a question, then, of right or wrong, but of what the master intends for the disciple. The original Osho, Rajneesh himself, too has said this in more than one place. What is more, Osho Robbins himself quotes Rajneesh as having said this, yet he seems not to have understood what he is parroting.

The idea is this. Test some master all you want before committing to him, but once you do, you need to trust him fully. So, once you accept, say, Gurinder Sing as your master, then you stop trying to evaluate him using your intellect. Because (a) what he says is beyond your capability to comprehend, on a different “level”, like a cat not understanding how a car works ; and (b) he may be saying what he is saying simply to bring some transformation in you. So, if you accept him as master, it behooves you to follow his words like a faithful disciple, no matter whether it makes sense or not.

Of course, you can choose to stop being his disciple, or stop accepting him as master. But even then, it makes no sense to try to rationally argue out sources that you don’t accept in the first place.

See, the devotee of Gurinder Sing will look at different things the man says, to fashion his thoughts and mode of living per those sayings. But someone who doesn’t believe in Gurinder Sing’s adept-hood, how in the world can he try to quote such source, which he’s saying himself is erroneous, to back up his argument? If I don’t believe that the Bible is the gospel truth, then how can I quote passages in it to back up other theological positions that I’m in favor of? That kind of selective-argument-from-authority is sheer nonsense!

It is exactly this kind of parody of rationality that leads to crazy debates like the one about how many angels can fit on the point of a needle.

What I said above applies to the religious man following his chosen religion in his own personal space.

If, however, you should try to pretend that your subjective religion is objective, and force it down unwilling throats, then, no matter who you are, a different standard will apply. Then you will be needed to back up your claim with evidence. And you will end up, in all likelihood, to be found wanting.

So, if RSSB followers tried to make a universal religion of their faith, and tried to compel others to not eat flesh and eggs, for instance, then sure, they are going to be pulled up, and evidence demanded of them.

But I’m not sure that is what is happening here. What is happening is just the contrary. What we have here is a religious apologist for Advaita, a believer in Advaita theology who is deluded into thinking that his subjective belief is objective reality, and who is trying to force his Advaitic thoughts on unwilling RSSB devotees. This is a classic recipe for a religious war, exactly the same in principle like Muslims killing Christians as well as Muslim apostates in Islamic theocracies for not following crazy Islamic laws. And this sort of nonsense must be called out, and shown for what it is, in the clearest possible terms. This sort of bamboozling of the gullible must never be allowed to go unchallenged, which is why I’ve decided to speak up now.

Osho Robbins is a religious fundamentalist. That’s exactly what he appears like to me, a disinterested observer, basis his comments here. He has been brainwashed into thinking that Advaitic Oneness is objective truth (when actually it is only subjective religious belief, one amongst many others). He is deluded into thinking that his alleged “realization” experience(s) and the subjective conclusions he draws from them are objective truth. Even if his belief is backed by actual experience (which frankly I doubt, but even if it is), even then it is no different from subjective RSSB belief backed by subjective RSSB experience.

So I’m going to wade right in, and challenge Osho Robbins to show us his objective evidence for Oneness. (And if he can do that, he can be assured of a Nobel Prize as well.)

Of course, there is yet another way of looking at this debate about how many angels fit in at the needle’s tip.

If both Osho Robbins himself, as well as other RSSB-ites, still consider him still a full-fledged RSSB-ite, and if this debate is merely a theological dispute amongst two different camps within the RSSB group itself, then, hey, I have no right to butt in! Just as I’d have no right to but in if different Islamic groups got together to debate subtle theological differences about specific interpretations in the Koran or the Hadith or whatever. If everyone sees this as an internal debate, internal to RSSB theology, in those terms, well then I’m an outsider and shouldn’t butt in, and leave you to it.

If this last option doesn’t hold, and the outsider's views are not seen as unwelcome interference, then, like I said, I really don’t see why all this heat and dust on here.

Osho says,..."But what is their authority? None of them have gotten anywhere. Jim at least has some inner experience - the other two have none.
That is the exact process I went through when I was a devoted sant mat follower."

Jim admits, he has no " authority" but "some inner experiences" is not why Jim has any Credibility. In the REAL world, i.e. where we are all practing the Dream of being nothing, because we are impermanent, and never existed to begin with, ....( according to Osho's " realization"), how we live by what we have faith in , is the Credibility which others should judge us by.

Thinking about committing suicide after being initiated by a Sant Mat Master exposes some rather serious psychological personal karmic wounds, Osho. Glad you never carried thru with those negative suggestions. And, I certainly hope you have taken the correct direction at your Cross Roads, when you were tested by the Devil, as the Blues Musician, Mr. Leroy Johnson once was!

As for me, if I had no inner experiences, what so ever, my Faith that I have retained since my Christian Born Again experience I had at age 35 would keep me on the Path. My realization of Salvation occurred then, and the steps I took to seal my Faith, was the same as Seekers still are doing today, when they are initiated by a Sant Mat Master.

My Faith then, was in Jesus Christ, a dead Master, who I could not even prove ever existed. Yet, I BELIEVED , by FAITH, which was the " Substance" of things hoped for, yet not seen,....kept me on tne apath, until that Substance, i.e. Christ, The Word, Shabd, of John 1:1 WAS seen, in tne Master Charan Singh, who had the same Chist Spirit in him as tne Master, Jesus had, who I first put my Faith in, before knowing that Charan Singh even existed, as a Living Master of my time.

So, Faith was the initial Medicine to the Soteriology of Salvation, that started me on tne Path, and Charan Singh was the manifested Living Master with tne Christ Soirit that KEPT me on the Path, in spite of reading 27 years of Exers on these forums griping about all the promises of the Sant Mat Masters they never received, with many of these Exers, becoming down right nasty, and militant,

I was never forced by any one to ever do any thing, I wasn't willing to do,...other than pay Taxes to my Govt. to use to kill others.

Today, my first born, Daughter, is 55, a Senior Citizen, and I am still with my one and only Bride, who has accompanied me through out my Journey, and has traveled to 60 different countries with me since Aug. 2012, while we have been accompanied, and protected by,....Christ in me, the Hope of Glory! "

Inner experiences are only a little Icing on tne Cake, but not needed, when a Soul KNOWS, Christ lives with him/her and is running the Show in the Play of Consciousness.

Spencer: Kudos on your thoughts! Respect! Don't be swayed by Osho's NO THING Ness. WE are here, right now, only seperated by a few thousand miles of Akasha. 😇

Appreciative Reader ,

Don't worry about offending me, or anything like that. I am not offended by any comments you made and you are most welcome to carry on.

And Brian does not need to delete any comments - as I don't care for my reputation - online, offline or any line. I don't have a reputation to protect.

All I was saying is "I don't feel like replying right now"

About Maharishi Mehi....from wiki

Propounding the philosophy of Sant Mat AND Advaita Vedanta His main motto: "The utmost & the most solemn goal of human birth is to attain, forsaking all worldly desires, complete liberation of all transmigration. The purpose of Santmat is to provide a system which fulfills the desire of attaining absolute Peace or total liberation."

To Brian, regarding "reet's" post that you think is important enough to start a new discussion about:

My thought, and reaction is,......So What? What has any thing Gurinder and his family doing have to do you and I, or any one out side of his Administration's inner core, or the Residents that live at the Dera, or the Secretaries and Representatives Voluntarily doing Seva that makes them either feel good about themselves, or serves to appease their guilt, as Catholics feel when going to Mass and confessuing their sins to their Priests?

Do you have a dog in RSSB's Race? Did you purchase RSSB Shares of Stock that are no longer paying Dividends to you?

I can understand some one griping if they are the Spouse of a Satsangi that donates family money to RSSB that takes away from the family pleasures, but other wise, what busuiness is it to we outsiders who are not invloved with any RSSB activities? Those DOING and DONATING to RSSB and getting nothing in return, should be the ones moaning and groaning.

Also, how does any one know that Gurinder uses, and wastes Sangat money and donations from the RSSB funds, and isn't instead, donating, abnd using his own money from his Business Ventures to fund many of the RSSB activities such as food for the free Langars, etc.

As for developing unused land, all over the cities that is going to waste, undeveloped, how does any one know Gurinder's private intentions of use, of these developed Facilities?

Nothing Gurinder does effects me, unless he kidnaps my family, and forces them to donate my savings to buy Jet Fuel for his Jets, and to become slaves of human trafficking.

And Osho would agree, because Gurinder and his family and RSSB are only impermanent dreams that don't exist. All every one needs to do is,. REALIZE it.

Appreciative Reader:
“I have no idea why you went off the deep end…” - Osho
What makes you imagine I went off some deep end? All that is only in your mind.” - AR

really?: here’s what gives it away – your words:
“Yet when you are directly asked to do this without using dogma, in an honest straightforward manner, you suddenly “don’t feel like it” any more?
I have had enough of this ******* trolling of yours!.... Over and out.”
That is called – going off the deep end – and it’s not in my mind – it’s in the words you write.

I can “I don’t feel like it” anytime I like. Your comment above implies that I am obligated to reply.

If both Osho Robbins himself, as well as other RSSB-ites, still consider him still a full-fledged RSSB-ite, and if this debate is merely a theological dispute amongst two different camps within the RSSB group itself,….. - AR
I don’t consider myself a full-fledged RSSB-ite, whatever that is. I am simply saying I am not an exer in that I am not against RSSB. I am not for it either.
I just find it amusing that some people take it literally and believe it is really true.
Maybe some people find me amusing – which is good entertainment.

Let me now address another point. What I am writing about is not dogma or belief.
There are two aspects to what I have written about
(2) The actual REALIZATION of (1) above
The first is something that can be explained in language. It is an intellectual exercise and it can be understood or misunderstood.
There is nothing dogmatic about this. No belief is required. No dogma. No theory that you need to believe. No Sach khand or regions. No masters. No light and sound.
Quite simply there is nothing to believe in – so how can it be a dogma?

The second – my actual realization – or lack thereof – is not worth discussing. I am making a statement for the sake of clarity that the “thing” has happened. Or should I say the “no-thing”
I can’t prove it and I don’t care to. It is irrelevant. Why? Because the moment it happens it becomes insignificant. And it is not what I thought it would bd. So how can it possibly be what you think it should be?
So the realization is not dogma – because again there is nothing to believe.
So exactly which part of what I say is dogma.
It might sound dogmatic because I state as a fact what to you is an opinion.
But I am not asking you to believe me or to agree.

Hello Jim,
What Gurinder has to do with us all is everything because he is in the position of a guru and tells everyone that the material world is not permanent and don't spend you time and energy focusing on it and then he focuses on it himself.
That is being a hypocrite. saying one thing and doing another.

If He has such great status and power and bliss inside - why would He spend so much time and energy on the outside?

Baba Jaimal would not even build a well - he was that concerned with his meditation. When Baba Sawan came and said he would build a dera there, Baba Jaimal said that you will get stuck and bound to this place, which has happened now.

How much time do you think He spends in meditation? SwamiJi spend seventeen years in full time meditation.

satsangis I spoke to said it gets handed down - the power of the meditation - so the later ones dont need to meditate. sounds silly to me.

Charan did not mix business with satsang

businessmen are very rarely spiritual - because it is a different mindset

Not sure why so many of the followers are so gullible. He is very concerned about money and making his family rich. Why is that important to a spiritual man. Jaimal did not even bother claiming his own land when people were taking it from him. He hold his mother he has more important work to do

Radha Soami is becoming rich like the churches. Babani, who was a very devoted follower and famous satsang preacher turned against radha soami when he saw it was all about money
He was very close to Charan and admired by many. He died a broken and depressed man disillusioned with radha soami

God Bless

Appreciative Reader:
"Osho Robbins is a religious fundamentalist. That’s exactly what he appears like to me, a disinterested observer, basis his comments here. He has been brainwashed into thinking that Advaitic Oneness is objective truth (when actually it is only subjective religious belief, one amongst many others). He is deluded into thinking that his alleged “realization” experience(s) and the subjective conclusions he draws from them are objective truth. Even if his belief is backed by actual experience (which frankly I doubt, but even if it is), even then it is no different from subjective RSSB belief backed by subjective RSSB experience."

Osho Robbins:

Here’s the difference:

(!) I have no teaching and no belief for you to accept

(2) I am not asking anyone to believe me – in fact I am specifically against believing me – even I don’t believe me. Because truth is not to be believed and it is also not to be experienced.

(3) Every religion has a set of tenets that need to be believed. I have none.

(4) ONENESS is not a religion, nor a belief. It is nothing.

(5) first there is no belief and secondly no experience of it. You don’t work hard and arrive at a destination called “Realization”.

An experience is subjective. Realization simply IS – no subject – no object. You might call this very statement dogma – but it is not because I am not giving you a theory to believe in. It may appear to be dogma if you have been surrounded by dogma all your life – then everything appears to be dogma because that is all you know – nothing outside of that exists for you.

Appreciative Reader:
What we have here is a religious apologist for Advaita, a believer in Advaita theology who is deluded into thinking that his subjective belief is objective reality, and who is trying to force his Advaitic thoughts on unwilling RSSB devotees.
You have got to be kidding me! Force my “Advaidic thoughts on unwilling RSSB devotees”?
Just how do you figure that out?
And where does forcing come it?
So – I could take the opposite standpoint. This site is Brian’s Churchless Blog. And RSSB believers come here and force their dogmatic beliefs on innocent non-believers.
It’s all nonsense. There is no forcing going on here – just a simple exchange of ideas. Nobody is forcing anyone into anything.
This blog is not called “RSSB devotees” – or has Brian changed the name recently?
So please explain how the heck you figure that out?

Appreciative Reader goes on even further:
This is a classic recipe for a religious war, exactly the same in principle like Muslims killing Christians as well as Muslim apostates in Islamic theocracies for not following crazy Islamic laws. And this sort of nonsense must be called out, and shown for what it is, in the clearest possible terms. This sort of bamboozling of the gullible must never be allowed to go unchallenged, which is why I’ve decided to speak up now.
Far out. “Bamboozling of the gullible?”
What in God’s name are you talking about?
There is no war going on here, except in your head.
Appreciative Reader:
So I’m going to wade right in, and challenge Osho Robbins to show us his objective evidence for Oneness.

Osho Robbins:
The Evidence for Oneness: A theoretical Treatise – By Osho Robbins
Two characters, ONE and NEXT,
conversing about life in the ONENESS

ONE: In the beginning there was ONE
NEXT: One what?
ONE: Just ONE – that’s it.
NEXT: Yes – but what WAS it?
ONE: I can’t say – just ONE – that’s the best I can say
NEXT: Okay – so – what then?
ONE: When?
NEXT: I mean after the ONE?
ONE: After? There’s no after or before. Just ONE
NEXT: What I mean is – let’s go – move on to the next step
ONE: You don’t get it. There is no next step and no moving on
NEXT: Well there must be something….
ONE: Nope – nothing – that is to say – other than the ONE
NEXT: I don’t get it
ONE: get what?
NEXT: This ONE business…
ONE: It’s not a business – just pure and simple ONE
NEXT: What I mean is I don’t understand
ONE: There’s nothing to understand. In the beginning was ONE
NEXT: But I need more… more proof…. more evidence…. Something
ONE: Sorry – but there is nothing more….
NEXT: What? Are you fucking serious? NOTHTING MORE?
ONE: Nope. Nothing.
NEXT: Then what’s the POINT?
ONE: Point? Where does the idea of a point come from? There’s no point!
NEXT: No Point? Then this ONE is fucking useless
ONE: I never said it had a use.
NEXT: Fucking hell. So it’s USELESS and POINTLESS?
ONE: Yep – you hit the nail on the head
NEXT: This is Ridiculous. I am not interested in the ONE
ONE: It doesn’t matter if you are interested or not. It still IS.
NEXT: I don’t believe it
ONE: Don’t matter. The ONE doesn’t need your belief
NEXT: No – that’s not what I meant. I mean it’s amazing.
ONE: It’s not amazing, or pointless, or useless – it is just the ONE
NEXT: okay – one more question
ONE: yes….
NEXT: WHERE exactly is this ONE and can I SEE it?
ONE: You make me laugh
NEXT: Why? I am perfectly serious
ONE: I know – that’s why it’s so funny
NEXT: Why?
ONE: because you can’t see the obvious
NEXT: what do you mean?
NEXT: What the fuck does THAT mean? You’re really PISSING me off now
NEXT: Can I SEE it then?
ONE: Can’t be seen
NEXT: Why the fuck not?
ONE: because to see you need two – and it’s only ONE
NEXT: so can YOU see it?
ONE: me?
NEXT: yes you! Can you see this fucking ONE bullshit thing that’s everywhere?
ONE: No. nobody can
NEXT: Not even YOU? Well fuck me! So how do you know it’s real?
ONE: I know
NEXT: okay, clever clogs! But HOW do you know, when you can’t SEE it
ONE: because once you relax – it becomes obvious and then you REALISE it
NEXT: Realise what?
ONE: That the ONE is all there is
NEXT: So you don’t SEE it?
NEXT: so how can you be sure?
ONE: sure of what?
NEXT: That’s it’s really there
ONE: where?
NEXT: You know what I mean – how can you be sure it’s REAL?
ONE: it’s simple – it’s the ONLY thing that is real.
NEXT: But what about me? Am I not real?
ONE: Naah – you and me – we’re not real
NEXT: but I FEEL like I am real
ONE: so do I, but who gives a shit?
NEXT: but maybe I AM real?
ONE: Yeah and maybe pigs can fly
NEXT: No – I am serious. I feel like I am real – not sure about YOU though
ONE: only the ONE is REAL because it is FOREVER
NEXT: Oh – I get it! Only that which is forever is real, right?
ONE: yep
NEXT: and what is the proof that the ONE is forever?
ONE: the ONE simply IS, WAS and ALWAYS will be
NEXT: more dogmatic fucking bullshit
ONE: No – the ONE is outside of TIME and SPACE
NEXT: But HOW do you know all this?
ONE: How is it that you do not? Grasshopper
NEXT: I really want to know the truth
ONE: okay listen and focus. The ONE is all there is. It encompasses all time and space and nothing except the one exists
NEXT: You mean Advaita is the truth?
ONE: No – not advaita. Just the ONE.
NEXT: so it can’t be SEEN. Just realized?
ONE: yes
NEXT: and have YOU realized it?
ONE: yes
NEXT: How?
ONE: by dropping all the beliefs
NEXT: What beliefs?
ONE: The idea that you know anything at all – drop all that
NEXT: Then what?
ONE: well try it and see
NEXT: Then I will become the ONE?
ONE: You already are the ONE, because there is nothing else
NEXT: Oh… I see… there is no ME!
ONE: That’s what I said
NEXT: it just hit me
ONE: what?
NEXT: that there’s no ME! I get it
ONE: what do you get?
NEXT: that there’s no ME – so there’s just the ONE
ONE: that’s what I have been saying
NEXT: I know – but it is just starting to make sense now
ONE: yes – and soon you will realise that the ONE is all there is
NEXT: It’s coming… fuck me …. I get it….. WOW … this is fucking amazing
ONE: what is?
NEXT: I AM the ONE. I just realized it. I thought I was separate before, but I can’t be.
ONE: why not?
NEXT: because the ONE is everywhere – fucking obvious now
ONE: why wasn’t it obvious before?
NEXT: why? Because I was fighting the whole idea and I thought you was deluded
ONE: Maybe I am
NEXT: Nah – no fucking chance. This is so easy. I thought it was something mystical
ONE: Mystical? What is that?

yeah - I know it's not proof
but it's the closest you're going to get

a bit like the dialogue from the Godot play

I am curious to see what He has to offer; Then we take it or leave it
What exactly did we ask him for?
Were you not there?
I can’t have been listening
Oh, nothing very definite
A kind of prayer?
A vague supplication
And what did He reply?
That He’d see
That He couldn’t promise anything?
That He would have to think it over
In the quiet of his home
Consult his family and friends and bank account…

And WE…..?
I beg your padon
I said “and WE…”
I don’t understand
And where do we come in?
As bad as that?
You will worship Him to assert his prerogatives
We’ve no rights anymore?
Ha – you make me laugh – if it wasn’t prohibited
We lost our rights?

Quote Osho Robbins : “… I went through a painful experience which triggered the ONENESS …”
Would you talk, please, of (a) that experience, and (b) what led to it?

I went through a divorce – but it was no ordinary divorce. My whole life fell apart. “They” were playing mind-games with me and I was distraught. My brother in law called me up and said “The best thing for you to do is to kill yourself”
It was all about money. Just a day earlier I had gone to the bank and withdrew £40,000 and handed it to them in exchange for them not reporting me to the police for breaking a restraining order they had fraudulently obtained against me. I had broken it because she had invited me back to the house (which was my house). It was a ploy to get the money. Once she had the money, she left.
I sat there, my life in pieces. No way out. I wondered what the best way to die was. Forty years of age, all that meditation and now this is how it was going to end.
I wondered if the master would show up, and if it was going to be just before or after I die.
I had hit rock bottom. This was the lowest point of my life. It was all over. I later heard that enlightenment usually happens when you are most dysfunctional and on your knees. Well that was certainly an accurate description of where I was.
Then suddenly something happened. I can’t explain it. But something profound happened.
I realized I had believed lies all my life. All my certainty evaporated in a moment. I know nothing for sure.
I guess you could say I became a non-RSSB at that point.
I had nothing against it – I just knew without a doubt that it was all lies.
I had been going to my first real advaita-type master for the previous year – and still didn’t get it. I didn’t even know what advaita was.
But now suddenly everything he said made total sense.
I began to laugh at the madness of it all. Chasing money all my life. Now losing a whole load of it. What the heck was it all about?
And I won’t even kill an insect and now I was contemplating killing a human being – myself – just a few moments ago.
How ridiculous. This was my first glimpse of something beyond the normal.
This was the loosening of the mind before I break free from it. I didn’t understand what was happening. All I knew was that something was happening.
All the KNOWING I previously had, disappeared and I knew nothing. It suddenly became crystal clear that all I had accumulated all my life were beliefs. I was standing on shaky ground.
Up until that point I KNEW that sant mat was the only truth.
Now – I knew that I knew nothing. All my life had been about trying to get to God and now it became clear I had wasted my whole life.
There was nothing left now. No hope. It was like I was losing my mind – literally.
Everything the guru had said to me came flooding to me all at once. It was like all the pieces of the puzzle had come together. Of course – no separate self – nothing to attain. Everything I had struggled to grasp became obvious. I wondered why I couldn’t get it before.
All the pain dropped away – nothing mattered. Money, things, relationships, seeking God… it was all nonsense now.
I laughed at the madness of it all and how I spent my life living in this prison of the mind.
I had been so serious and now I was free from it all.
Nothing was of any interest anymore.
That night I had a very clear dream of Gurinder. He was doing a satsang and after came to me and I told him what was happening to me. “Cool” he said.
I asked him what was happening. I told him I didn’t understand and he said “This is it. This is what you have been searching for all your life.”

This first glimpse was the first of many over the next few months.

Appreciative Reader,
that's the first instalment. This was before I went to my second master who I had the four day intensive with.

That's when it took on a whole new dimension. After that, I stayed alone for over a year - pretty much isolated from the world.

Once incident I remember clearly: I was fitting a window glass, and holding a hammer in my hand as I stood on a ladder. The glass to be fitted was leaning against the wall just below me. The hammer slipped from my hand and smashed into the glass window, breaking it
I just watched. It was really strange. No reaction. Like I wasn't really there. I just got down from the ladder and picked up the phone and ordered a new glass.

It was like I was living life - but it had nothing to do with me. It wasn't personal. It wasn't MY life and nothing was significant.

And it was totally effortless. No struggle at all.

For those who say the teachings have not changed - here's the proof

I am not saying that he says "don't meditate"
but what he does say is "YOU cannot do it - you just try - that's all"

I am saying the emphasis has changed to the ONENESS.
His method has not changed - I never said it had. Of course he cannot
suddenly say "Ok - no more mediation" sant mat will always advocate
meditation - it is central to the teachings.

satsang of Gurinder in hindi

at 1hr 10 mins into the video (hindi)
Gurinder Singh is clearly talking about the ONE
he says "We are stuck in Duality"
"Until you step into the ONENESS... until you realize the ONENESS
you cannot realize the lord"

"Ik akhar jo gurmukh japi - bhuji virla koi"

"The ONE word which the gurmukh japs - only a rare one realizes"

To Osho,.....Thanks for your heart felt confessions. No doubt, you won't believe it, but reading it, I actually FEEL your pain! And even more surprisingly, fully understand it! But what may surprise you, is, the horrors you confess to have experienced, is really nothing, as compared with what most other human beings that are living on earth , including me, have experienced and have not gone off the deep end because of, as you appear to have fallen in to.

If I ever shared even a smidgen of the bad things I have gone thru, and endured, you surelly would feel blessed that you have been given so much Grace from God to have been spared from the challenges I have been tested with, yet never cursed God, and or was ready to eat shit and die because of! I lost $500,000 U.S. Dollars, in a ten year Real Estate Oroject I was held hostage in, for ten full years, while being forced to work in hard labor as a slave, to keep from loosing every thing my wife and I had labored in together. I was born in to poverty, in a town of 500 natives, and worked hard and long enough to become a Millionaire, so know that money and wealth can never buy freedom or happiness. It only shackles the soul more to the mind. Sant Mat Philosophy releives the pain, when the Medicine perscribed by the Master is applied.

I could share my negative laundry list here, and surely surprise the readers enough to bring them to tears, or laughter, which would definitly prove, "we" are "all" ONE in Spirit, and in truth! Its called One Up Man Ship, and the proof that you STILL are no where near, yet free or realized, is, that Freedom's just another word, for nothing left to loose!

When Gurinder visited you in your dream, he nailed it, perfectly, and I know you were not dreaming, because that is EXACTlY what he is saying, in all of his Sat Sangs!

He has Cancer, and has gone thru hell, with his " treatments" , loosing his hair, and even his dignity, while still presenting him self to his loving and caring Brothers and Sisters FEELING his pain.

Try exchanging Sandals with Gurinder for just one 24 hour period, and imagine trying to remain in a human body with out committing suicide and ending your grief, if you were him, instead of you!

For me, no thanks! The Bible says God will not allow us to be given any more grief than we can handle. I sure would not want to be suddenly handed Gurinder's grief, especially the grief projected at him from all of his millions of grieving Satsangis!! His best Day will be the day he dies, and he is finally released from the burdens that was handed to him by Charan Singh, his Master.


Osho Robbins, thanks much for taking the time in writing those well-thought-out comments of yours. Absolute pleasure going through them.


The comment you wrote just before the one containing the One-Next dialog, that point also you fully convey in the course of your One-Next dialog. So I’m packing my response to both comments together here.

First of all, I absolutely enjoyed reading your One-Next dialog. I have actually saved it offline for later reference as well. And I could appreciate how just such a dialog can, potentially, nudge you “over the edge”. That is exactly what happened with Manjit, seemingly, when he spoke with you, as he notes in his comment addressed to me in the previous page of this thread. Very Shams-Tabrizi-ish of you, like I was saying to him, and I can feel a certain wistful stirring within me, wishing that something of the sort could happen to me as well (although you do caution that the experience per se isn’t necessarily pleasant).

But still, I think you’re making a mistake here, in conflating your subjective perception (and subjective interpretation thereof) for objective reality. If we did have that dialog, you and I, I’d stop you right at the very first overture, and the conversation would take a wholly different turn. This is how it might, perhaps, go :

ONE : In the beginning there was ONE

NEXT : I see. Evidence?

ONE : What do you mean, evidence? It was, is and will be. That is all there is.

NEXT : I see. Interesting. Would you show me your evidence for this ONE?

ONE : There is no use for this ONE. No utility as such. It simply is.

NEXT : As you say. But what I was asking you for is some EVIDENCE for this ONE that you’re positing.

ONE : I’m not positing anything. It simply is. It isn’t belief, it simply is.

NEXT : Great. So show me the evidence that it “is”.

ONE : What the heck, there is no evidence. How can there be any evidence of the One that is outside of time and space?

NEXT : So then, you KNOW that the ONE exists, but there is no objective evidence as such for the ONE, right?

ONE : I suppose so, yes.

NEXT : That is exactly the definition of subjective belief. That is exactly what I’d been saying all this time, that your belief, while true to you, and indeed precious, is your own personal subjective perception, wholly subjective. Wholly religious, if I may use the word “religious” broadly. And exactly the same as any other religious belief, since your belief is your personal understanding of a certain situation (that is different from the commonly accepted scientific, objective knowledge).

Osho Robbins, I do appreciate that dialog you presented, and I am not trying to be smart-alec-y here in presenting this alternative dialog. That dialog I tried to present, following yours (and your original ONE-NEXT dialog which I have, like I said, saved offline for reference) is exactly what I am saying.

Do you see what I mean when I say your Oneness is simply subjective belief, subjective religious belief even? (By saying which I am not deriding or devaluing your perception or your conviction, merely pointing out its essentially subjective nature.)

Both elsewhere and right there in my comments to me, you have stated a good many times that your Oneness is NOT theory, not dogma, not belief. I hope I have been able to show you why I think you are, despite your protestations, and despite the sheer beauty of your direct perception itself, basically conflating subjective perception (and subjective interpretation thereof) for objective truth.

If you can see that, then everything else I said as well as implied, directly follow from that one point.


Brother, I’ve already apologized and taken back my offending comments. Now when you bring this personal situation of yours up here, I feel like a complete dick and total asshat for goading you to bring this up despite your perfectly understandable reluctance. I wouldn’t presume to patronize you by offering you my sympathy, but I do feel for you, brother.

Once again, apologies. I think I’d gone overboard with my whole Socratic Enquiry thing. Crossed lines I shouldn’t have crossed. You’re perfectly right, I had no right at all to presume to demand these personal details from you.

Your description of how, after that incident, your enlightenment unfolded was beautiful, Osho Robbins. It struck a chord. Not in terms of my own experience, but in terms of a very dear friend’s.

I generally gabble away a good bit here, on Brian’s site, but I’m not comfortable sharing personal details online. So far as personal information goes, I prefer to stay totally mum. Nevertheless, the least I can do now, is to myself share a very personal account of a very dear friend. This lady (a sweet and elderly lady, incidentally) had gone through a very traumatic experience, a long time ago : and she too had had a sudden ‘breakthrough”, much like you yourself did. We’ve talked about her ‘episode’ and subsequent change in great detail. Although she herself interprets her particular breakthrough in Tantric terms, purely in terms of Kundalini rising up spontaneously to her Sahasrara, triggered in some way by her extreme trauma. (And unlike you, she didn’t even have a particularly religious or spiritual background. Her spiritual practice came afterwards, after her Kundalini breakthrough, and her “Practice” came about as a result of trying to understand and control the changes that were happening to her after that episode. Somewhat like Manjit, I suppose, whose spiritual experiences too seemed to have jumped out at him wholly spontaneously.

Although I understand you, Osho Robbins, and although I can feel myself yearning for some such realization myself that would bring some sense to an otherwise senseless world (or perhaps solve the problem differently by simply taking away the need to find sense, which is our universal basic human weakness I suppose), nevertheless, you do see that this Oneness is still not OBJECTIVE, right? It may well be “right” : but nevertheless, it is still your subjective perception. It is your -- if I may use that word -- your subjective BELIEF. Just like if an RSSB meditator sees Gurinder Sing come to him in his Radiant Form, that visitation would be his subjective perception and, should he believe that Gurinder Sing actually went to him, then that would he his subjective belief. Similarly, your Realization episode was and is your personal subjective perception, and your subsequent idea about there being this Oneness (“out there”, that is, outside of your own brain and perception), that is your subjective (even religious) belief.

Do you agree, Osho Robbins? It seems so very crystal to me, but I don’t know if I’ve been able to convey this clearly to you. Do you concur?

- - -

In fact, let me circle back, one more time, to my friend’s experience. I think it’s been a real privilege for me to have been able to so closely interact with her and others of her ilk (God/destiny has been kind to me that way), and I equally appreciate the opportunity to discuss your perception and world-view with you.

See, it seems my friend’s experience was very similar to yours. And yet she found her explanation in Tantric terms, in terms of her Kundalini shooting up to her crown chakra. So first, the perception itself was subjective, for both of you. And again, the interpretation of what may have been similar perceptions also turned out so very different for the two of you (Kundalini in her case, and Oneness in yours), thus underlying the essentially SUBJECTIVE nature of the interpretation as well. (And, mind you, if both of you had arrived the exact same interpretation and the exact same worldview subsequent to that perception, both perception and interpretation would, nevertheless, still have remained SUBJECTIVE. The fact that such interpretation was different does not contribute to your worldview becoming subjective, but this difference does highlight and underline and emphasize that essential subjectivity.

You see what I am saying, don't you? On the one hand, I’m appreciating your perception itself and trying to discuss that with you. And on a wholly separate note, I am trying to point out that both your perception and your interpretation of your perception are subjective. Where you seem to be erring is in conflating that subjective perception and your subjective interpretation (and, following from that, your subjective worldview of Oneness) as objective fact.

Although backed by bona fide perception and subjectively impeccable interpretation, your worldview of Oneness nevertheless remains subjective and personal, a personal belief, even a religious belief if you will (using the word “religious” in very broad terms).

I, or another, may choose to accept your subjective worldview of Oneness. We may, perhaps, The Force willing, even share in your perception some day (like Manjit did, after his session with you). But even if a thousand, even if a million, ended up sharing your experience and your worldview, it would nevertheless remain subjective. (If the numbers were large enough, then in fact we’d have a bona fide religion out there.)

It’s all a question of realizing clearly the difference between the subjective and the objective. That seems to be the nub of the whole thing.

Nim do you ever give or rent money to satsangis?

Posted this along ago nobody replied. I wonder why is giving money harder to give than pair of shorts?

Hey any rich cats out there with extra 50000€ to give to me moongoes but with no limit of giving them back..but if in the future i earn them I will. I calculated that this would give me really great life.tnx.moon..it is not a joke

I am not a rich person right now and I don't have that kind of funds available with me.

However, I can help you by lending/raising online say 1/10th of that - i.e. 5000 € - if that is something which can help you a little ?

If you are in a dead need of it, then I surely offer some help within my capacity.
I do not know about your earlier post, every post of this blog is so full of amazing comments, it takes a lot to traverse back and forth to get to a specific comment.

Your comment is also sounding sarcastic to me.

But, if I am to take it seriously then I have to ask all this because you have literally written "it is not a joke"
But you will have to prove it.

So, was it really a sarcastic one or you are really in need of funds ?
Can you elaborate more why do you need these funds ?
If you want to chat privately you can email me at one initiated at gmail.

Appreciative Reader
To say the least, I am surely fascinated by reading to Manjit's experiences. Anyone and everyone would surely be.
But actually that was not the point behind my response.
My point was basically to negate his judgements about my experiences and how he was disconnecting them from my Master and judging my Master and the whole RSSB as inadequate - this is totally absurd for he doesn't have a slightest idea on what's going b/w me and my Master at this point of my life.

I would call Manjit as innocent here. To me, he appears to be a very talented little child who has grown up a little too quickly and is not actually capable to comprehend what's happening around. he is noticing what's happening, and surely a lot is happening with him / happened with him - but the biggest thing he is failing at is recognising who is the Master of the Puppets. It's like an awesomely built Puppet of entirely next level as compared to the ones who are just learning to dance, but lost in the beauty totally forgetting if there is / can be any Master at all... and even looking at his own Master and telling all other puppets who are starting to dance telling totally vague and absurd judgements about HIM. his experiences are commendable and his judgements (about others and to a great extent to himself as well) are condemnable.

That One Next stuff was really a good read. bookmarked.
It also looks incomplete and my inner reader is demanding more on it... it's reminding me again of the conversation based literature like Mirdad. So long to have read it. Surely the time is now to refresh my brain cells with some amazing spiritually invoking conversations.

All the little you shared of your personal life was indeed quite intense to read.

Lots of love to everyone.

Jim do you ever give or rent money to satsangis?

No my post about money wasnt sarcastic. Many years i was ascetic and a hard worker also ...and i really wonder in life why those who have more cannot give money away. Now i am tired of hard work in snow and rain and would like to train mz bass guitar for whole day to make it happen. But me an my wife still have some kredits to pay back(still 3 years to go cc abour 600€ a month) for the house we repaired. I am really thinking why someone could not just give money not lending. Yes i know money was earned fairly...but not all ....many people work hard but dont get money . You see...my intension is to stay at home care and cook for family and practice bass. I dont drink,drug, eat animals...and so on.

To Appreciative Reader: You ask good questions! I will attempt to answer your questions here, but please forgive me if I say I will excuse myself from any further posting in this thread! Time is precious and all that :o)

AR wrote: "A question here, if I may : Have you any ideas, speculation even, about the reason for this “oddity” of yours? Why is it, do you think, that you’re so different, in this respect, from others?"

Me: Well, aren't we all different!? Perhaps that is the nature and purpose of human existence?!

Your question is very insightful and multi-layered though. I cannot speak for others, but isn't that what we all do, try to make sense of, or find "reasons" for, our existence, predicament, character, proclivities etc? Answering on one level, I used to think (when a child, and others including family members and strangers/acquaintances thought so too) this was all to do with "past-lives" and the narrative of most eastern schools of mysticism (ie. I had a deep connection with devotion to "God" in past lives etc). Damn, I even had experiences of what seemed like perfect "past-life" scenarios involving Sawan Singh.....so mundane, so contextually realistic, that I thought they just HAD to be genuine past life experiences. The first time I got off at Beas railway station, I almost fainted and had to hold onto a handrail for support, so strong was the overwhelming feeling of deja vu (literally having been here before). Perhaps the most (only?) externally validated experience of this was having a dream of women sweeping the ground at Beas with these weird witch-like broomsticks I'd never seen before in real life. Several years later on my first visit to Beas, I saw 2 women sweeping the floor at Beas with exactly those broomsticks! Ah, perhaps it was pre-cognition more so than a past life recollection....

Point is, nowadays I find such thinking, personally, absurd. I think reality is far more mysterious and imponderable than any of the linear paradigms and theologies (like the RS model for eg.) humans have conceived of to this day. I'm not really up for going into my current ideas into what may actually be going on (as it could take years :), but the more experiences & information one gathers, the stranger reality appears. Here's a post I wrote about on another forum years ago, should you be interesting in some of my general speculations about the nature of reality:


As a slight aside, I certainly do not think myself in any way "special" or "blessed". I do NOT think there is some over-arching absolute "purpose" to all people's existence and that I am following it, as do most religions like RS. IF I have a belief, then that belief is that the purpose of everybody's existence is PRECISELY what everyone is already doing! They say variety is the spice of life, well, I'm just one particular variety, that's all! Indeed, I suspect most people with their values would observe me and my life and think "cursed" more likely! As to myself, neither "blessed" or "cursed" are words in my vocabulary. I just follow my nature, naturally, as do we all......Of what use all the money in the world, to me, and what use all the "satsang" and "darshan" and inner visionary experience to somebody who is interested in nothing but sex, drugs & rock & roll? They would laugh at the thought of an exchange of lifestyle, as would I :o)

AR: "have you had any kind of spiritual guidance at all, early on, perhaps in those western mystic system you refer to, or in some Gurdjeff-like practice in controlling dreams and inducing lucid dreaming, or even (since you’ve seen visions of Gurinder Singh) informally in RSSB-type practice (despite not having been initiated formally)? Or has it all been wholly spontaneous, so to say?"

Well, I never had personal guidance, actually (it could EASILY argued that you don't get "spiritual guidance" after initiation with RSSB & Gurinder too, obviously, as there is millions of initiates and just one guru!). I just read lots, and practiced, even if for a short time, what I read! For eg., I did read Gurdjieff and tried to incorporate specifically his lucid dreaming guidance into my practice as a young child (well, the rest of it was WAY, WAY beyond my grasp, at the time :)

AR: "That’s a fascinating idea you present, that perhaps certain types of meditation might release chemicals within the brain, which might in turn lead to the meditational experiences. (I must dig around a bit, “research” if you will using the Google-machine, about these chemicals you mention, especially ones that might perhaps be produced by the body itself.) This, if true, is surely something that can be objectively, scientifically validated? This could end up providing a much-needed bridge between subjective intuition and objective empiricism"

Oh, that's a very complex area, the whole mind-brain connection! In the past I've posted here and at RSS (yes, I post there as "manjitd101" for several years now, had a few other usernames (sequentially and clearly "handed over" :) some 15+ years ago though) my criticisms of Brian's entire materialistic outlook (which is demonstrably philosophically and scientifically false imo!) and most of David Lane's materialist outlook too, though it is slightly more nuanced. In other words, I'm not sure to what extent showing that DMT is in the physical body (scientific fact), or is released from the pineal gland (I think this has been proven in rats, which is highly suggestive it's the same in humans as we know DMT is already in us), or that exogenous DMT use generates visionary experiences would provide a "much-needed bridge between subjective intuition and objective empiricism"? Regardless, it is indeed fascinating! There is a documentary on this googling-machine called "DMT The Spirit Molecule" (youtube) - give it a watch (the book it's based on is a lot more informative obviously), then perhaps google terms like "DMT meditation" or "DMT kundalini", "DMT pineal gland", "DMT endogenous production" etc? There's a lot out there (inc. actual refs to scientific studies) about it.......Personally, I think it's a small part of the puzzle, perhaps, but not all of it like some think.....

AR: "Incidentally, your account of your realization on meeting with Osho Robbins I read with great interest. One doesn’t look for proof or validation in forums like this, only lucid explication, nevertheless your account does provide a validation of sorts for Osho Robbins’s narrative as well!"

Indeed so. It's interesting for me to hear some of the comments about him here (inc. from yourself!), insinuating quite a bit, mostly that it's all talk/concepts, no experience etc Well, I know the dude - I also know that at least 2 or 3 people who followed RSSB quite passionately & intensely, left RSSB totally and instantly after having a discussion or two with him. That's just facts, people can read into that what they want....sometimes we can get lost in impressions and lose touch with the reality of things, online......

Here's my theory, I don't think the "advaita" realisation can, generally speaking, occur unless one SPEAKS to somebody else who understands the "non-dual state". I think this is because when you READ or THINK over things, you are using what is termed "left brain, intellectual, linear, logical thinking etc. When you SPEAK to somebody, you can bypass the left brain thinking and information can become more effective. People can read for years and years, think about these things constantly (like I had before I met Osho Robbins), even think they have some sort of grasp on the actual "realisation" of that state many term "enlightenment". But, they really have no grasp whatsoever, it is purely intellectual. Imo, every single poster on this thread is arguing from that perspective. Except Osho. That's my personal opinion. I think it's obvious nobody here has had a "non-dual" realisation (whatever that may be! I certainly don't buy into MUCH of the hype surrounding this nowadays!), and I think Osho has because not only have I discussed with him for hours, but he also "triggered" my initial "non-dual realisation". I may be mistaken and projecting upon him the same "realisation" I and countless others have had, but I suspect not.......

AR: "would you talk a bit more about this specific experience? I ask because this would seem to be pivotal"

Thing is, it was indeed pivotal, but there have been countless pivotal other experiences. Narrowing down on one experience is to lose sense of deeper meanings. Nonetheless, I can attempt to describe what is, by very definition, beyond logic and concepts (perhaps your frustration with Osho is down to not realising this fundamental truth about the "experience"...indeed, even the word "experience" is absurd!). All you are left with is artistic impressions about it, and, well, your tastes may vary as to expression, as it has with Osho here?

It is the realisation that there is nothing but "self", all experience is merely content of one mind (can seem solipsistic in words, but the experiential reality is much different). Alternatively, it is the realisation that there is no "self" at all, and all there is is experience or "Suchness". Everything is what it is and needs no commentary. You realise that the person who's been searching doesn't even exist, is an aggregation of illusion. You actually and directly realise - experientially if you will - the mere husk of words that Osho Robbins is writing out here. You feel a sense of freedom and exhilaration that has gone unsurpassed in your entire previous life, because all previous experiences in life have been attached to a "self" and thereby dulled by that ego-self's many, many limitations in thought & sense of identity. Personally, when I left that chat with Osho, I laughed in my car by myself spontaneously for a good 10 or so minutes! I laughed at the ludicrous and intense nature of my "search for God" for the previous 20 odd years, when this self-evident "Oneness" had ever been there!

Hold on though - is this "enlightenment" something I would recommend to anyone? Well, well...it could be the end of all your striving for material and worldly success, potentially cutting off all future marital relationships (it's hard to be attached to someone who DESERVES to be attached to, when you have no self!), a general lack of ANY worldly motivations, attachments etc. I notice many enlightened people say it's actually a "curse" in many ways. Again, I say, we follow our own natures. I would not change a thing about my life because I have followed my heart's desire and passion. Surely those passions are not and should not be shared by anyone else? Be careful what you wish for on the "spiritual path", you might just get it :) Re-read all those texts again, then think about your family and careers, then think carefully.........

AR: "I mean if One Initiated, or Jim Sutherland for that matter, experience things in a certain way, and then choose to interpret them in a certain way, then surely that is their business? I’m not sure it’s very good form to force your own interpretation down their throats! I mean if they’d themselves asked for your views, then that’d be a whole different matter, in that case you’d actually be doing them a favor by sharing your thoughts with them ; but as it is, given that they *don’t* seem to want to know your views at all …? Isn’t that how all religious conflicts start, by people trying to prescribe how other people ought to think and behave?"

Ah, can I suggest you re-examine the contents of my post in the grander context of both time & place and the lesser context of this specific thread? :) There are thousands of satsangs around the world and I suspect many pro, unquestioning RS online sites and forums out there. However, there are only TWO places, worldwide, online or off-line, for people to discuss and express critical views of RS, which surely serves a purpose. I would not walk into a satsang and make these statement, I have no interest in convincing ANYONE about ANYTHING, merely sharing my knowledge should anyone else benefit for it. I do not ask anyone swallow anything I say whole, but merely ponder over it. That's the grander context. The lesser? Please re-read this thread. My comments to Jim and One Initiated are specifically in context of THEIR claims about their experiences. This then spilt over into their claims about MY experiences in context of theirs, and indeed thinly veiled threats about the consequences of my criticisms of RSSB and Gurinder. Well, if I may....if you're going to come to one of only 2 sites worldwide where people can criticise RS, make specific claims about your experiences and what they prove objectively and then make theological threats to an individual.....don't be surprised if I engage honestly and openly without censoring myself! If somebody posted here they had a lovely mystical experience.....what the hell reason do I have to comment on that, except say, that's really nice?!?! However, if you couch your experiences in the context and claims that One Initiated and Jim did, well, silly mistake to make :)

AR: "Incidentally, with your wide reading you’re no doubt aware that Kumbhaka is an integral part of Hatha Yoga, albeit a very ‘advanced’ part."

Ah, I think you actually mean khechari mudra, not kumbhaka? That is the cutting of the, errrm, "frenulum" (spelling?), or actually just extending it over a period of months without making cuts, so that you can stick your tongue into your naval cavity to release the "inner nectar"? Yes, personally - though how the hell can I know for sure! - I believe that was the nectar I released spontaneously. I also think it's plausible THAT specific experience/nectar maybe DMT, based on a comparison of the experiences and simple understanding of biology.......

AR: "Would you say your Oneness experience has been of any real use to you? In what way"

Okay, 3 answers, each equally true:

1) Yes! My "Oneness experience" and £1.50 can buy me a pack of biscuits in most UK stores!! :)

2) No, none whatsoever!

3) I would not exchange it for £1,000,000,000,000. Honestly and sincerely. Again, it comes back to our following our natures, not some objective law or requirement. I do not believe the universe values me & my experiences any more than an ant!

Anyways, I hope these somewhat answered your questions - I tried to be open, honest and helpful, but as I say we all have different natures, perhaps this isn't what you were looking for! Peace my friend :)

To Osho: Yes my friend, you don't need to convince me :) I owe you a great deal.....I know you're genuine to the extent it matters to me.....you said to me back then (I remember it :) you don't need to thank a signpost, just carry on and make your way. A perfect statement which reveals much. You also say in this thread "as I don't care for my reputation - online, offline or any line. I don't have a reputation to protect.". Haha. Funny thing, knowing what I do know about you, I believe this is a genuine and sincere statement. Having been on online forum for 2 odd decades, there are very, very, very few people I would believe if they made this claim. Very few. In fact, I doubt the vast majority even understand what you've just written there, really. :)

Sorry about not calling you over weekend, things were a bit hectic. Well definitely call later during the week!

One Initiated: "About Tantric procedures and Kundalini, I do not have much insights into those,...

......I maybe totally wrong and I do not intend to hurt the sentiments of anyone who is following this, but in my opinion the reach of Tantric and Kundalini procedures are way below as compared to the Sant Mat (or the equivalent path if someone wants to name it differently).
Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj have explained the Kundalini procedures and it's achievements at length in HIS discourses which I read in the books' series known as "SantMat Prakash" (in Hindi) - I don't remember it's name in the english language (if you want I can inquire and tell you). It's basically an amazing collection of the text literally based on HIS discourses as recorded on paper by various disciples.

Also, when we read the Kundalini procedures that it starts from the Root Chakra and goes all the way to Crown Chakra and comes back to merge in the Root, it appears similar to the Surat Shabd Yog however, it's not to my perception."

Hi One Initiated. Thanks for sharing your experiences, I did find them informative and interesting, if not unique to RS whatsoever, but let's leave that aside. I'm interested in your comments here about "kundalini" in comparison to today's RS method. I have found there to be a profound amount of ignorance amongst RS satsangis regarding this topic, mainly based on their wholesale acceptance of RS dogma, which is only 100 odd years old, and demonstrably false.

Without question today's "shabd yoga" was a traditional tantric "kundalini" practice going back up to thousands of years ago. It has merely evolved (theologically elevated and practically made easier, best of both egotistic worlds :) over much more recent times into the RS shabd yoga of today which totally denies - dishonestly - it's deep connections with tantra. Shabd, nada, pranava etc have been considered for thousands of years as MANIFESTATIONS of "kundalini", just ONE aspect of it. Nowadays, people mistakenly associate the true depth of the kundalini with new age cults like Yogi Bhajan's 3HO, and many people think it is this thing which is released from the base of the spine and goes through various chakras etc. This really is deeply uninformed and akin to saying shabd yoga is the singing of kirtans that people do before satsangs!

Any basic familiarity with tantra through, say, the texts of Kashmiri Shaivism for eg, would reveal the true origins and basis for the RS Shabd theology. There existed no version of RS Shabd Yoga and theology OUTSIDE of tantric/kundalini circles 200+ years ago. Here are some quotes from tantric/kundalini sources I posted over at the RSS forum years ago, some very rare stuff here, might as well copy & paste here!:

"He from whose navel steadfastly proceedeth in it's upward course the Om, and naught but it,
And for whom the kumbakha exercise formeth a bridge to the Brahma-randhra,
He beareth in his mind the one and only mystic spell"
Kashmiri poetess, Lalla, verse 34

"I locked the doors and windows of my body.
I seized the thief of my vital airs, and controlled my breath.
I bound him tightly in the closet of my heart,
And with the whip of pranava (cosmic sound) did I flay him"
Lalla, verse 101

"The ever unobstructed sound, the principle of absolute vacuity, whose abode is the void,
Which hath no name, nor colour, nor lineage, nor form,
Which they declare to be the Sound (Nada) and the Dot (Bindu) by it'sown reflection on itself-
That alone is the God that will mount upon him"
Lalla, verse 15

"He who hath recognised the Brahma-randhra as the shrine of the Self-God,
He who hath known the Unobstructed Sound borne upon the breath that riseth from the heart unto the nose,
His vain imaginings of themselves have fled far away,
And he himself recognises himself as the God. To whom, therefore, should he offer worship?"
Lalla, verse 33

"Along the central channel, this path extends up to the braincase...
....Inside the rajadanta there is but one orifice, the mouth of sankhini, known as the tenth door.
From the circle of the root portion whence the kundalini energy flows out spring up the moon conduit from the left portion, and the sun conduit from the right portion......
....From the root bulb arises breath, arises thought, arises the sun, arises life, arise sound and matrkaksara"
Goraknatha's Amaraugasasanam, page 10

"The energy made of unstruck sound stands in the middle, in the wheel of the bulb, looking like a straight line with serpentine undulations at both ends, above and below.
Between those 2 that are sun & moon, the kala is indeed resplendent with a brilliance equal to that of a thousand suns.
This energy can be ascertained by slightly restraining the breath. That is what is referred to as 'symptom'.
And now, the supreme ascent:......"
Somananda's Saktavijnana, verses 9-11

"Known as nadavedha is the piercing brought about by the upward rush of the resonance according to the process of creation; through this spontaneous resonance, let the master enter the disciple's consciousness"
Abhinavagupta, Tantraloka, chapter 9 (where he discusses all the various types of initiation possible - after going through all the various types of initiation that we still see today, including shaktipat, pranahuti etc, he goes on to state the initiation through 'silence' is the 'highest' possible.....Ramana Maharshi?)

"The nature of such a consciousness is its capacity for self-referal, and because of that, there always arises a spontaneous sound which is termed the supreme, the great Heart....
......For that vibration, which is a slight motion of a special kind, a unique vibrating light, is the wave of the ocean of consciousness, without which there is no consciousness at all...."
Abhinavagupta, Tantraloka chapter 4

"It is the Heart whose nature is vibration which constitutes the supreme method for achieving the highest non-duality which consists of universal grace. For the nature of the self-referential character of the consciousness which composes the awakening of the Heart is that it is an astonishment brought about by the total fullness of consciousness"
Abhinavagupta, Malini-vijaya-vartika, page 105

"There on the level of the highest kundalini there is the Emissional Power which is beautiful because it contains within itself the vibration, there the yogin should repose devoted to the condition of the belly of the fish"
Abhinavagupta, Tantraloka, chapter 5

It is clear the entire RS meditation practice is detailed in 500 year old texts of "kundalini" such as gheranda samhita, hathayogapradipika or siva samhitas etc (all available online free btw). Go take a read! :)

Ah, then we have the whole "Sant Mat" myth. That all these great "past" masters of RS, such as Kabir, Nanak, Rumi etc etc were all practicing and teaching the same thing as today's RS masters? Nonsense, and demonstrably so, a true whitewash of the subtleties of all these people! First, read the 3 texts I quoted above, then read these quotes I found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib within an hour or so at most - there certainly must be more? It is OBVIOUS these guys were practicing a meditation technique not only different to RS, but in direct conflict with it (breath control, oh no!):

Tulsi Sahib -
> "The luminous feet lie at the junction of black & white."
> Ratan Sagar, pp 8 & 9
> "The path of the Beloved lies through the Royal Vein (Shah Rug).
> Seek the perfect Master with love patience, dear;
> He, indeed, will give thee light to find the Shah Rug clear.
> The practice of a few days will open the inner ear."
> Sant Bani, page 44
> "That the soul resides in the body is known only to the one who has
> experienced it within.
> Who has adorned the chamber of Sukhmana and fixed his attention on
> the Sunn......."
> Shabdavali, Pt 1, Kakahra 22, page 25
> "The path leading to the shores of Mansarovar was revealed unto me.
> In the Sukhmana I went into a trance and then crossed to the other
> side."
> Shabdavli, Pt 1, Kundli 16, Page 38
> "He alone sees the Beloved with his own eyes, O friend,
> Who brings his soul to the banks of the Sukhman."
> Shabdavli, Pt 1, Rekhta 2, Page 6
> "Reach the house of Sukhman and await there the arrival of the Lord"
> Shabdavli, Pt 1, Mangal 2, page 87
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> "The snake-like coil is now pierced through & through and I have
> dauntlessly met my Lord, the King...
> .....Merged in the Full-pervading Lord when I locked the breath
> within, *then* (my emphasis, manjit) the celestial strain
> spontaneously began to resound."
> Kabir, page 972 SGGS
> "If her mind pearl, like an ornament, be weaved into the thread of
> breath, and the bride puts on the decoration of compassion on her
> person, then the Beloved enjoys his sweetheart"
> Guru Nanak, page 359 SGGS
> "The right & left nostrils are the guards of this body lyre
> (harp...manjit), and this lyre synchronises a wonderful melody"
> Guru Nanak, page 907 SGGS
> "Put thou thy life-breath in the right channel and establish good
> relation with thy Lord
> In this way thy fish-like mind shall be held and thy soul-swan shall
> fly not away from the Lord and thy body-wall shall not perish in
> vain."
> Guru Nanak, page 991 SGGS
> "Says Nanak, if in the heart of his heart man contemplates his Lord,
> then with every breath of his, he quaffs nectar"
> Guru Nanak, page 992 SGGS
> "He then mounts his breath to the 16 petalled sky and there flutters
> his wings in glee.
> In the prrofound trance a tree of God becomes manifest and it dries
> up the water of desire from the body-ground"
> Kabir, page 970 SGGS
> "The left wind-pipe, the right wind-pipe and the central one, these
> 3 abide in one place"
> Sant Beni, page 974 SGGS
> "The breath is drawn in by the left nostril, it is retained within
> Sukhmana & is breathed out by thhe right nostril, uttering 16 times
> the Lord's name"
> Jaidev, page 1106 SGGS
> "I have obtained the 10th gate as a distilling fire and the channels
> of the Ida and Pingala (the left & right breath channnels according
> to tantra....manjit) are the funnels to suck in and spit out, and
> mind as a golden vat.
> In that vat, the extremely pure stream of Name Nectar trickles.
> Like this I have distilled the essence of essences.
> An incomparable thing has happened, my breath I have made the wine-
> cup."
> Kabir, page 92 SGGS
> "By turning my breath inwards, I have pierced the six body chakras
> and my mind (surat) got enamoured of the Lord."
> Kabir, page 333 SGGS
> "O brute of brawling and uncultured intellect, reversing thy breath
> from the world, turn it thou towards thy God.
> Intoxicate thou thy mind with the ambrosial stream that trickles
> from the furnace of the 10th gate"
> Kabir, page 1123 SGGS
> "Associated with the saints, their kundalini is opened and
> through the supreme Guru, they enjoy the Lord of supreme bliss."
> Guru Ram Das, Granth Sahib, page 1402 (the only time I am aware of in
> the Granth Sahib the work 'kundalini' is explicitly mentioned in
> Gurmukhi?)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hatha Yoga Pradipika
> "64. I will describe now the practice of anahata nada, as propounded
> by Goraksa Natha, for the benefit of those who are unable to
> understand the principles of knowledge -- a method, which is liked by
> the ignorant also.
> 65. Adinatha propounded 1 1/4 crore methods of trance, and they are
> all extant. Of these, the hearing of the anahata nada is the only
> one, the chief, in my opinion.
> 66. Sitting with Mukta âsana and with the Sambhavi Mudra, the Yogi
> should hear the sound inside his right ear, with collected mind.
> 67. The ears, the eyes, the nose, and the mouth should be closed and
> then the clear sound is heard in the passage of the Susumna which has
> been cleansed of all its impurities.
> 68. In all the Yogas, there are four states: (1) arambha or the
> preliminary, (2) Ghata, or the state of a jar, (3) Parichaya (known),
> (4) nispatti (consummate).
> Arambha Avastha.
> 69. When the Brahma granthi (in the heart) is pierced through by
> Pranayama, then a sort of happiness is experienced in the vacuum of
> the heart, and the anahat sounds, like various tinkling sounds of
> ornaments, are heard in the body.
> 70. In the arambha, a Yogi's body becomes divine, glowing, healthy,
> and emits a divine smell. The whole of his heart becomes void.
> The Ghata Avastha.
> 71. In the second stage, the airs are united into one and begun
> moving in the middle channel. The Yogi's posture becomes firm, and he
> becomes wise like a god.
> 72. By this means the Visnu knot (in the throat) is pierced which is
> indicated by highest pleasure experienced, and then the Bheri sound
> (like the beating of a kettle drum) is evolved in the vacuum in the
> throat.
> The Parichaya Avastha.
> 73. In the third stage, the sound of a drum is known to arise in the
> Sunya between the eyebrows, and then the Vayu goes to the Mahasunya,
> which is the home of all the siddhis.
> 74. Conquering, then, the pleasures of the mind, ecstasy is
> spontaneously produced which is devoid of evils, pains, old age,
> disease, hunger and sleep.
> 75. When the Rudra granthi is pierced, and the air enters the seat of
> the Lord (the space between the eyebrows), then the perfect sound
> like that of a flute is produced.
> 76. The union of the mind and the sound is called the Raja-Yoga. The
> (real) Yogi becomes the creator and destroyer of the universe, like
> God.
> 77. Perpetual Happiness is achieved by this; I do not care if the
> mukti be not attained. This happiness, resulting from absorption (in
> Brama), is obtained by means of Raja-Yoga.
> 78. Those who are ignorant of the Raja-Yoga and practice only the
> Hatha-Yoga, will, in my opinion, waste their energy fruitlessly.
> 79. Contemplation on the space between the eyebrows is, in my
> opinion, best for accomplishing soon the Unmani state. For people of
> small intellect, it is a very easy method for obtaining perfection in
> the Raja-Yoga. The Laya produced by nada, at once gives experience
> (of spiritual powers).
> 80. The happiness which increases in the hearts of Yogiswaras, who
> have gained success in Samadhi by means of attention to the nada, is
> beyond description, and is known to Sri Guru Natha alone.
> 81. The sound which a muni hears by closing his ears with his
> fingers, should be heard attentively, till the mind becomes steady in
> it.
> 82. By practicing with this nada, all other external sounds are
> stopped. The Yogi becomes happy by overcoming all distractions within
> 15 days.
> 83. In the beginning, the sounds heard are of great variety and very
> loud; but, as the practice increases, they become more and more
> subtle.
> 84. In the first stage, the sounds are surging, thundering like the
> beating of kettle drums and jingling ones. In the intermediate stage,
> they are like those produced by conch, Mridanga, bells, &c.
> 85. In the last stage, the sounds resemble those from tinklets,
> flute, Vina, bee, &c. These various kinds of sounds are heard as
> being produced in the body.
> 86. Though hearing loud sounds like those of thunder, kettle drums,
> &c., one should practice with the subtle sounds also.
> 87. Leaving the loudest, taking up the subtle one, and leaving the
> subtle one, taking up the loudest, thus practicing, the distracted
> mind does not wander elsewhere.
> 88. Wherever the mind attaches itself first, it becomes steady there;
> and when it becomes absorbed in it.
> 89. Just as a bee, drinking sweet juice, does not care for the smell
> of the flower; so the mind, absorbed in the nada, does not desire the
> objects of enjoyment.
> 90. The mind, like an elephant habituated to wander in the garden of
> enjoyments, is capable of being controlled by the sharp goad of
> anahata nada.
> 91. The mind, captivated in the snare of nada, gives up all its
> activity; and, like a bird with clipped wings, becomes calm at once.
> 92. Those desirous of the kingdom of Yoga, should take up the
> practice of hearing the anahata nada, with mind collected and free
> from all cares.
> 93. Nada is the snare for catching the mind; and, when it is caught
> like a deer, it can be killed also like it.
> 94. Nada is the bolt of the stable door for the horse (the minds of
> the Yogis). A Yogi should determine to practice constantly in the
> hearing of the nada sounds.
> 95. Mind gets the properties of calcined mercury. When deprived of
> its unsteadiness it is calcined, combined with the sulphur of nada,
> and then it roams like it in the supportless akasa or Brahma.
> 96. The mind is like a serpent, forgetting all its unsteadiness by
> hearing the nada, it does not run away anywhere.
> 97. The fire, catching firewood, is extinguished along with it (after
> burning it up); and so the mind also, working with the nada, becomes
> latent along with it.
> 98. The antahkarana (mind), like a deer, becomes absorbed and
> motionless on hearing the sound of bells, etc.; and then it is very
> easy for an expert archer to kill it.
> 99. The knowable interpenetrates the anahata sound when it is heard,
> and the mind interpenetrates the knowable. The mind becomes absorbed
> there, which is the seat of the all-pervading, almighty Lord.
> 100. So long as the sounds continue, there is the idea of akasa. When
> they disappear, then it is called Para Brahma, Paramatmana.
> 101. Whatever is heard in the form of nada, is the sakti (power).
> That which is formless, the final state of the Tatwas, is the
> Parameswara.
> 102. All the methods of Hatha are meant for gaining success in Raja-
> Yoga; for, the man, who is well-established in the Raja-Yoga,
> overcomes death.
> 103. Tatwa is the seed, Hatha the field; and Indifference (Vairagya)
> the water. By the action of these three, the creeper Unmani thrives
> very rapidly.
> 104. All the accumulations of sins are destroyed by practicing always
> with the nada; and the mind and the airs do certainly become latent
> in the colorless (Paramatmana).
> 105. Such a one does not hear the noise of the conch and Dundubhi.
> Being in the Unmani avastha, his body becomes like a piece of wood.
> 106. There is no doubt, such a Yogi becomes free from all states,
> from all cares, and remains like one dead.
> 107. He is not devoured by death, is not bound by his actions. The
> Yogi who is engaged in Samadhi is overpowered by none.
> 108. The Yogi, engaged in Samadhi, feels neither smell, taste, color,
> touch, sound, nor is conscious of his own self.
> 109. He whose mind is neither sleeping, waking, remembering,
> destitute of memory, disappearing nor appearing, is liberated.
> 110. He feels neither heat, cold, pain, pleasure, respect nor
> disrespect. Such a Yogi is absorbed in Samadhi.
> 111. He who, though awake, appears like one sleeping, and is without
> inspiration and expiration, is certainly free.
> 112. The Yogi, engaged in Samadhi, cannot be killed by any
> instrument, and is beyond the controlling powers of beings. He is
> beyond the reach of incantations and charms.
> 113. As long as the Prana does not enter and flow in the middle
> channel and the vindu does not become firm by the control of the
> movements of the Prana; as long as the mind does not assume the form
> of Brahma without any effort in contemplation, so long all the talk
> of knowledge and wisdom is merely the nonsensical babbling of a mad
> man."
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Seemingly critical quotes about yogic techniques:
> "Inwashing and mounting of breath to the Tenth Gate, through the
> coiled pipe and exhaling, inhaling and stopping of breath through
> mind's obstinacy;
> By such hypocritical creeds, love for the Lord is enshrined not. It
> is through the Guru's gospel that the Name's suprememe elixir is
> obtained"
> Guru Nanak, SGGS page 1043
> "Some one practices his inner-washing and breath-control through the
> snake-like coiled route.
> But I, the poor one, contemplate my Lord God alone"
> Guru Arjan Dev, SGGS page 912
> "Saints and reverences, recollect:
> who slips through time's noose?
> Datta, lost in false tastes,
> couldn't find the heart.
> Like butter churned from water-
> that was his meditation.
> Gorakh couldn't keep his breath
> though he knew some yogic tricks.
> Power, profit, control -yes,
> but he couldn't go beyond."
> Kabir Bijak 90

Peace all, please direct all further questions to the Skies :)

Osho Robbins: "I had a question back in the days when i was following this path, and I used to ask all the gurus I went to and none could answer.

My question was this:
IF (and it's a big if) the radiant form gives guidance and the disciple can ask any question and get the answer from the radiant form which really is the guru, then.....
How come there are so many successors of Kirpal? and they are not friends.
So, if Thakar Singh, to take one example, had the radiant form of the master within him, and it guided him, then surely the radiant (inner) guru will say to Thakar, "Listen, Kiddo, you're not there yet, stop being a false master and just do some more meditation" And it could also tell him who the real master was.

But this doesn't happen.

So my question was, if there are so many people claiming to be successors, the radiant form MUST guide them and stop them being fake masters."

Haha. Sorry, I forgot to comment on this excellent question...

This question has been hammered out ad infinitum on the Radhasoamistudies forum (and in my own head) years ago!

The fact is imo, the more personal stories and experiences one hears about - and I don't just mean in RS - the more the theological paradigm of RS starts to crumble. Imo, it has already crumbled to dust and is rendered incoherent and absurd. The only barrier to such a realisation is either a lack of familiarity with enough information, or the cognitive dissonance that rings in peoples heads when they try to consider the ramifications and implications of such information and questions, and are afraid to truly broach the subject honestly.

One of my personal favourites from way back when was when Aaron something or other went to the "fourth" (or fifth?) "region" to ascertain the "true successor to Kirpal".....only to change his, errrm, mind (or soul? :) later and choose/vision another successor!!

Or let's take the examples of Katherine Watson or Michael Martin, both initiates of Charan (possibly Jagat or Sawan for Watson), who started to teach independently once Charan passed away. Michael Martin is a perfect example in many, many ways. First of all, Jim on this thread was his, I would say, more or less only and closest friend or associate on the Radhasoamistudies forum. As Jim has hinted at even on this thread I believe, he considered Michael to be a true follower of RS. Everyone else? Not so much. This guy called himself the "Western Satguru" and claimed he was working in tandem with Gurinder. He made numerous and constant veiled threats against people for criticising all his bizarre and absurd claims, like the Space Shuttle disaster in Texas occurred because of all the criticisms he was getting online, or some delusional such. Now, I often commented on if he checked the "truth" of his own inner visions by using the "5 names test", and he obviously said he did - who and why would anyone not do so? Obviously all these gurus are using the 5 names as their mantra!

So it is strange when someone wrote to RSSB that they got a response back basically saying obviously he's not working in tandem with Gurinder and certainly isn't the "Western Satguru"!

Ahh, the good ol' 5 names test. How anyone can still believe it is a viable tool to distinguish "inner" illusion from reality is beyond me!!

To Manjit, regarding Michael Martin. To set the revord straight, Michael Martin never promoted himself as the Western Satguru. That was originally done by the Administer/Moderator of the Yahoo Exsatsangi forum, where both Michael and I were posting. First, I was banned and blocked from continuing to post there, but Michael was posting there as both, Kabir. and Lackpurity. The Modetator, ( Temp) as I recall, set up the Yahoo site, naming it " Western Sat Guru, copying all of Martin's posts from Exsatsangi site to Western Sat Guru, and sent him packing. Of course, most of the Exers still were interested in what MM had to say, so they joined his new forum to lurk there, as they also did on the forum MM set up, sharing Moderation of it with four others, including myself. They were Netamara, Aquila, Daniel, and Gondolf. Rifts quickly took place between the Moderators, with MM ended up as tne sole Adminstrator with his other several sites. That site was called Light From Sound Oasis, which I coined the Name. It went defunk after Martin's passing, but most of the posts still remain, other than mine, which I deleted before I left the site. But I still say, Michael Martin was the most loyal, and devoted RSSB Charan Initiate I ever communicated with since 1990. Our rift happened because of our differences of opinion about Netamara, another Charan Initiate widly known by most of us Western Charan Initiates. MM talked the Talk, and Walked the Walk. In all the time I read him, or privately communicated with him, he never once used fowl language, or unleased the F--- Bomb. Language exposes the true inner condition of those claiming to be enlightened, or Mystics. Apply That test to the posters in Lane's Snake Pit RSS, and you will easily be able to sort the Wheat from the Chaff.

BOTH you and I, along with Michael Martin, took the most vicious verbal abuse, for years on end, there, unmoderated by David Lane.

I give you credit for forgiving the Abuser, and trying to counsel ...., but it obviously erupted and ended as it did, under the Applause of most of the Ankle bites in the Snake Pit.

Appreciative Reader, you are correct that is it subjective because it is personal to me.
Anything personal to ME or to YOU is subjective, because that is what subjective means. It cannot be proven objectively.
Now I could argue “But it’s not an experience – it is beyond ME and beyond the mind and beyond time and space – therefore it is objective truth – regardless of ME because there is no ME”
However, it is a circular argument because I am saying it.
So yes – I concede – it is subjective.

Imagine a certain scenario……

There is just nothing or just the ONENESS. Nothing else exists. No time, no space. Obviously it goes without saying that no PEOPLE, no SOULS, no WORLD, no GOD exists either. (unless you call the ONENESS God, in which case only God exists – but it is the empty, pointless, Nirgun God, not the “All love and joy, all knowing, all powerful type of God”)

And the ONENESS went to sleep and it began to dream. (Again, I concede that this is impossible – because it cannot sleep as nothing can happen if there is no time. However I am just using this ‘sleep idea’ to explain a point – because we understand sleep – so just humour me)

And all these dream characters arose in the dream state (just like we create dream characters in our dream state)
You, me, the world, and the universe, all we see: all arose in the dream of the ONE.

And this duality all appeared to be real – but the truth was that these were just dream characters and not real. As soon as the dream ended – they would all disappear – because they were never real in the first place. (The real can never disappear or die).

Now ONE of those dream characters, who strangely enough called himself Osho Robbins (OR), had this insight that “Fucking hell – I am not real”

or if you want the polite version “Everything here is unreal – including this ME I used to be so attached to – which actually it is not even real. Far out!”

It wasn’t a pleasant realization and wasn’t even helpful, because who wants to discover that they are not real?

It was neither convenient nor useful – but it was the truth. Osho has called it the LAST NIGHTMARE.

‘Last’ because there are no more nightmares once there is no more you.

‘Nightmare’ because the mind is constantly trying to achieve, attain, win, be right, arrive, realize, accumulate, chase goals (rainbows) – and with this realization – it’s all over – and you have LOST not won, and it was “all for nothing”

He discovered the truth – that “I am not real – the truth is the ONE and only IT is real”

Now another dream character, called AR, says to this OR:
“Hey – you are deluded – it’s just a subjective belief. It is no different from my belief that I am a Christian or a Buddhist”

The dream character OR says “No – there is a HUGE difference. You (AR) have not discovered anything at all – you just believe blindly that you are a X or a Y, whereas I am saying there is no ME – because I can SEE it – I have discovered it – it is not an opinion, it is not a belief”
So AR says “But YOU are making this statement – therefore it is subjective. And quite frankly – I don’t believe you. I believe you are deluded. Furthermore, It is not objective truth – and you can never prove this subjective truth to anyone”

So that “realized” dream character, OR, says “It IS the truth regardless of me”
“It is subjective in the sense that ‘I’ have discovered it – but the discovery is that there is no ME so how can it be subjective? When there is no “I” left to claim the discovery? So WHO made the discovery when the discoverer vanishes…. ”

So AR says “But it is just YOUR belief… therefore subjective… and you cannot prove it to me…
And if you cannot prove it to me objectively – then I am sorry but it is subjective”

Now what AR says is actually correct, because OR cannot hand it (the insight) to AR or to anyone else.

And it seems completely correct to conclude that OR is deluded and “needs help”
Because there is NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE of what OR claims is true.

It is just “his” perception – and therefore subjective, even IF it is the truth. The realisation of it is still subjective because OR has had the realisation and cannot objectively prove it is true.

Realization, by its nature, is subjective because it happened to a certain ‘person’ and it cannot be proven.
In that sense – you could say it is a belief – or a religion.

From the viewpoint of “AR” it is absolutely clear that it IS a religion and a belief and there is no evidence for it.

From the viewpoint of “OR” it is a discovery of what actually IS. He has seen through the matrix and realized he is not real. What he has discovered is the actual truth. It is not just another theory he has read.

Here’s the point:
It’s complicated.

It is SIMPLE as far as OR is concerned: it is a discovery of the absolute truth. HOW he has discovered it – what proof he has that it is true – he cannot say, because YES – it is subjective because it is HIS insight.

It is SIMPLE as far as AR is concerned: It is just another belief as OR cannot present any objective evidence of his so-called discovery. How can anyone, including OR know it is the truth?

Both are correct. And each is incorrect from the viewpoint of the other. It is therefore subjective.

A small zen story might or might not help. It is based on a real zen story. I just changed the characters, just for fun.

Jesus and Moses got into a big argument about true religion . Each claimed to be right and said the other was wrong. The Buddha tried to solve the issue but failed. So all three went to Bodhidharma who agreed to act as the judge.

Jesus put over his point of view very clearly and Bodhidharma, after listening carefully said “Yes – You are RIGHT”

Now Moses put over his viewpoint again very convincingly, and Bodhidharma admitted “Yes – You too are RIGHT”

The Buddha, who was normally calm and serene, could take it no longer…. “But they cannot BOTH be RIGHT……Damn it!”

After a short pause, Bodhidharma replied “Yes – You are RIGHT”

Appreciative Reader, you seem to be a genuine seeker of truth, and I can certainly understand your frustration. I would go further and say the frustration is inevitable and necessary because any realized person is a real fucking pain to deal with, if your search is anything more than curiosity.
Trying to figure it out is impossible. It simply cannot be done. You don’t get answers. Instead there comes a moment when the questions all drop off because they are all absurd. Questions come from the mind and the mind doesn’t get enlightened.
It is something beyond and it cannot be proven through reason. When it happens – it cannot be explained so if someone says “you are deluded” – they too are right from their viewpoint because enlightenment cannot be believed and there is no point in believing it.
Osho was asked “Can I doubt you?”
“Yes,” he replied, “absolutely. Including this answer.”

Dear MANJIT : Thanks, your response to me was a treasure trove of wisdom, or so it seemed to me at first glance (I’ve only skimmed quickly through what your wrote, for the present). I’m referring to both your responses to my particular questions, as well as your very insightful comments addressed to One Initiated about Kundalini Tantra vis-à-vis Sant Mat.

Afraid I’m rushed for time today and for the next couple days (traveling), but I look forward to getting back and, at leisure, sinking my teeth into all of what you’ve said here.

You’re short of time yourself, you say, and express disinclination to comment further on here. If that is what you want, sure, I respect your wish. Nevertheless, after having gone through your comments in detail later (after I return), I will put up some further comments as they occur to me. It'll be great if you could go through them whenever convenient. Whether you comment further or not, afterwards, that’s entirely your prerogative.

What you've already put down here is terrific food for thought, already, and I'm grateful.


Dear OSHO ROBBINS : Like I was saying to Manjit just now, I’ll be traveling and am very pressed for time right now. I look forward to going through your posts addressed to me with the full attention they deserve when I return, in a couple of days, and respond back to you.

May I quickly jot down three quick things as they occur to me right now, as I quickly scan through your posts?

Firstly, like I said to you in my earlier comment to you, I see this discussion with you at two levels. The first, and by far the more important level, would be for me to know more about your particular perceptions and insights. Towards that end, you’ve mentioned that these responses are just your “first instalment”. If you are able to move on to the further installments, I look forward to going through them as well when I return. (Entirely at your convenience, and if you're comfortable doing it now.) I find this discussion with you perfectly fascinating, and would love to listen to whatever else you may have to say.

Secondly : At another level, I’m discussing with you the subjective nature of your perception and worldview. I understand what you say here (broadly I mean ; I’ll go through your comments at far more detail after I get back), but I’d like to take this discussion a bit further too. Even as you admit the subjective nature of your perception, you may not, it seems to me, be fully appreciating the implications of such subjectivity. More later on that!

Lastly : Your friend and mentee (is there such a word, “mentee”?), Manjit, puts forward a very insightful “theory” : that perhaps the mechanism of activation of the perception of Oneness is triggered by the right side of the brain, by our non-logical faculties, so perhaps direct speech more than analytical reading may trigger this sort of thing. Sounds plausible to me. That and, in some cases, the reaching of some kind of crisis point in one’s external life (as with you, as with my friend who I spoke about yesterday, and as with, for instance, the story of Ananda’s finally attaining to arhatship). Fascinating! I’m just repeating what he said, not saying anything new myself here, but this was one “take-away” from my quick skim-through of both your comments. Later, then, cheers!

The "Thing" I am talking about (it's not anything you can put your finger on) is actually no big deal. It's nothing - literally.

When it happens to a "someone" it appears to be very significant and for a while that someone is in a state of bliss. However, that too is an illusion. As you integrate the "thing" into your being, the superiority complex drops off. The superiority feeling has to arise when it first happens because the "someone" feels that they have accomplished something of great significance - namely - the nothingness or the oneness.

After a while, this state become the new "norm" so it is no longer anything to write home about. The superiority drops off - as there is noting to feel superior about.

The wave realises it is not a separate wave and there is just the ocean - there are no waves. So? Big deal? So - you don't exist in reality.

However, life continues here - so then WHO is living now? if the SELF has gone, who remains?

Answering that is not straightforward. The enlightened one now picks up the battered and bruised ego and puts it on again. Tries it on for size. It doesn't fit too well now - but it is okay - he'll manage until the body dies.

If he doesn't do that - the body will die as soon as the enlightenment happens because there is no longer a reason to go on. Life has no inherent meaning if there is no individual self and it is now impossible to carry on accumulating and creating something - because the meaning has disappeared.

Whatever you DO in your life - you do because it has a specific MEANING for you. You feel you are GETTING SOMEWHERE and accomplishing something of significance.

For example - you go to work to get enough money to live your life. You raise your children because they are yours. You build an empire because you consider it is important to do so. You look after your body because it is important for you to have a healthy body. You create a religion or a "spiritual organisation" because you feel it is important to guide the lost souls to your version of the truth.

Now suddenly, with the first awakening, (and all enlightenment is just the first awakening) the whole meaning drops off because you realise you made it all up and it's all basically made up bullshit. This is not just a surface intellectual realisation. It is a profound and deep truth. Once you discover this - the whole meaning of your life changes. How can you just carry on now?

This is not just some minor hiccup in your journey through life. This is a major setback. The goals you were previously trying to reach are no longer meaningful goals. You can't meditate anymore because you no longer seek Sach Khand or want an audience with Sat Purush. You no longer want the guru to take your soul to sach khand because there is no soul and also no Sach Khand.

Now what the fuck do you do - with the rest of your life?

You can take on a new way of being - this is the neo-Advaita. And become a neo-advaita teacher. Guide others to this nothingness.

But WHO are you guiding? There is nobody left to guide.

The other choice is to "Bring the Buddha down to earth" Come down from the mountaintop and live an ordinary life. Embrace the ordinariness of life and integrate the enlightenment into your ordinary life. Play the game - even though there are no goals and nothing to accomplish - play.

And sometimes when you play - you will also get caught up in the game - that too is part of the game of life. Don't run away by saying "this is not real" - deal with it. This is integrating the enlightened state into your life.

What is the meaning of REAL?

There are two ways to define REAL.
(1) That which I experience in this moment
(2) That which remains forever

The first is real in the sense that it is NOW – it is the present moment. It is real only for the moment. This is the sense in which our life is real. It is happening now. So let’s be clear – you and me are not real in the sense that we remain forever. So this is not ULTIMATE reality. It is momentary reality.
It is like the dream state. The dream IS REAL while it is happening. And it feels real. Only when it ends we realize it was not real.

The second is the ultimate definition of real. If it ends, it is not real. So everything you see with your eyes is unreal because it all ends.
So when Charan Singh says “How can that which ends be real?” he is talking about ULTIMATE reality.

Now all this above – is not a belief and is not subjective. It is objective. I am defining what REAL means and the two types of definition of REAL and the difference between them.


Hi Osho

What U and many others experienced is some stage between you and the 1/7 proctor
One breath of that stuff will knock us out, Crowley_wise,

Now try LOVE
A kind of LOVE that will never perish

But I don't remember if you ever got what follows from a real Master ( rssb )

Many choices to LOVE ad Fundum

The Sweet Sound
The 5 Words . . . . if loaded in you by a:
Living Master

Yes - it must be eternal and sweet and ever growing

You might ask a kid how Love feels , . . . many do know that



the next instalment of the ONE - NEXT conversation

Chapter 2 – I laughed all the way to God

ONE: You do know that nothing has happened yet, don’t you?
NEXT: What do you mean? I have “got it” now
ONE: You’ve got nothing
NEXT: I understand it now
ONE: yes – and understanding is the booby prize
NEXT: What do you mean?
ONE: When it happens – it is not intellectual
NEXT: so what have I got then?
ONE: You have done step 1 - understood
NEXT: and there is more?
ONE: Much more
NEXT: I thought I had already arrived
ONE: You have not even left home yet. Once you understand – now it begins
NEXT: What begins?
ONE: The REAL journey
NEXT: But you said there was no journey
ONE: I lied
NEXT: So there is a journey
ONE: yes - absolutely
NEXT: where do I sign up for it?
ONE: right here
NEXT: Why did you lie to me?
ONE: Because it’s not a journey in the sense of going anywhere
NEXT: So what kind of a journey is it?
ONE: It’s a metaphysical journey to your true self (or non-self)
NEXT: Okay – sound good to me – let’s go
ONE: I need to see if you qualify first
NEXT: What qualifications do I need to be ready?
ONE: Be open; Be ready to truly listen without prejudice
NEXT: Anything else?
ONE: be ready to discard your own opinions
NEXT: But I value my opinions
ONE: I know – but they are just opinions – not necessarily true
NEXT:I still value them
ONE: You can have truth – or your opinions – but not both
NEXT: But I think my opinions are the truth
ONE: So does everyone else
NEXT: But mine REALLY are
ONE: It only appears that way to you
NEXT: But If I give up my opinions and my way of thinking, I am in dangerous territory
ONE: Exactly
NEXT: What do you mean, EXACTLY?
ONE: I mean you have to let go of everything you know
NEXT: That’s a lot to ask
ONE: That’s the price
NEXT: OK – I agree. What do we do next?
ONE: Nothing
NEXT: Nothing? You talk in riddles
ONE: You just hang out with me
NEXT: That’s it?
ONE: Yes – just my company is enough
NEXT: So what happens then?
ONE: Things will happens because I am immersed in the ONE
NEXT: You mean I will get insights?
ONE: Yes – it will start to become clear
NEXT: Do I need to ask you questions?
ONE: If you want to – but questions are irrelevant really
NEXT: So how will I get the answers then?
ONE: You don’t get answers – because answers are of the mind
NEXT: I won’t get answers? That doesn’t make sense
ONE: It is not of the mind – so it will not make sense
NEXT: But I want it to make sense
ONE: It doesn’t matter what you want
NEXT: it doesn’t?
ONE: This is not for you
NEXT: Who is it for then?
ONE: It is for the ONE
NEXT: But I am the ONE, right?
ONE: No, you are a deluded little fuck
NEXT: steady on with the language, pal
ONE: The language doesn’t matter – get over it
NEXT: do you have to use language like that?
ONE: No – but it offends you and you need to get over it
NEXT: Why?
ONE: because it is the egoic ‘you’ that is offended
NEXT: so this is not for me?
ONE: No – enlightenment cannot become a decoration for your ego
NEXT: What does that mean?
ONE: It means that the YOU that you are aware of get no benefits
NEXT: It doesn’t?
ONE: No – it loses everything – including itself.
NEXT: everything?
ONE: yes – that is why you don’t benefit
NEXT: But will I find peace of mind at least?
ONE: well – sort of – you will find peace of no-mind
NEXT: Peace of no-mind?
ONE: yes – because the mind never finds peace
NEXT: and what is no-mind?
ONE: it is what happens when you drop the mind
NEXT: How do I drop the mind?
ONE: Just hang out with me and it will drop
NEXT: I don’t believe you
ONE: You don’t need to
NEXT: why not?
ONE: because this has nothing to do with belief
NEXT: I don’t need to have faith in you?
ONE: You just need the qualifications I stated earlier
NEXT: SO what do we do now?
ONE: We will start by watching the play “Waiting for Godot”
NEXT: Why?
ONE: because that is what YOU have been doing all your life
ONE: Yes – you have been waiting and postponing
NEXT: for what?
ONE: for Godot
NEXT: I see what you mean now
ONE: You’ve always been thinking that one day……
NEXT: yes – one day, it will happen, I will attain…
ONE: Yes – and ONE DAY never comes because every day is just TODAY
NEXT: All I ever have is today?
ONE: Yes- tomorrow is a dream
NEXT: and I have been waiting to be good enough – which is always tomorrow
ONE: Yes – and YOU will never be good enough – because tomorrow never comes
NEXT: yes – I get it – when it comes – it always comes as a TODAY
ONE: Yes – so awakening has to happen NOW – not tomorrow
NEXT: and if I “DO” something …. I am postponing to tomorrow…
ONE: Yes – that is why all “DOING” takes you further away
NEXT: So that is why no meditation or any other practice cannot help
ONE: You can meditate or do any practice – but it will not happen that way
NEXT: But does it help?
ONE: How can it? When YOU are doing the practice?
NEXT: yes “I” am doing it – hoping something will happen….
ONE: and “I” is the barrier, so the “I” is getting stronger through practice
NEXT: How do I drop the “I”?
ONE: “YOU” don’t
NEXT: okay, so how does it drop by itself then?
ONE: It doesn’t drop – it just wasn’t ever really there
NEXT: so what actually happens then?
ONE: It’s a paradigm shift
NEXT: just a change in perception?
ONE: Everything is perception. Your whole life is all about perception
NEXT: What about reality?
ONE: You never know what reality is – because your mind filters everything
NEXT: Do YOU know reality?
ONE: The mind sees what it wants to see – it functions through beliefs
NEXT: I asked you if YOU know reality
ONE: Reality cannot be KNOWN in the sense that you understand “Knowing”
NEXT: So you don’t know reality either?
ONE: No – nobody does.
NEXT: Then what do YOU know?
ONE: Nothing – the absence of all notions of knowing
NEXT: what does that mean?
ONE: it means NOT KNOWING – pure emptiness – the NO-MIND state
NEXT: What is that?
ONE: I cannot tell you
NEXT: Why not?
ONE: because anything I say will create a perception and a belief in you
NEXT: but if you say nothing, how can I know what it is?
ONE: You cannot know if I say anything
NEXT: Then how can I know?
ONE: You will know when you get in harmony with me
NEXT: How do I get in harmony
ONE: You let go and listen intensely, without evaluating, without judging
NEXT: How do I listen in that way?
ONE: just stop the “Yes, that’s right” habit of the mind, because the mind is always
evaluating and then agreeing or disagreeing.
NEXT: “Yes that’s right” – the mind always does that
ONE: the mind is being judge and jury
NEXT: it either says “Yes I agree” or “No I disagree”
ONE: you need to listen without deciding – it is a different quality – a no-mind state
NEXT: I get it

Dear Osho
Many stages, dear friend.
Many states of understanding.
You know the fable of the five blind men each touching the elephant in a different place.

"The elephant is like the trunk of a tree!"

"No, the elephant is like a huge serpent!"

"No, the elephant is like a gentle, small serpent with a crown of hair upon its head."

"No, the elephant is like a huge soft Boulder!"

"No, the elephant is like a huge tree leaf"

Each spoke the truth, as far as they could understand. Therefore argument was useless. If only each had chosen the path of humility and exploration. They would have discovered the whole truth for themselves.

We are, each of us, one of those blind men.

Meanwhile, the elephant shook herself of these blind men, and walking away exclaimed, "What a bunch of arrogant motherfuckers!"


Dear Manjit,

I went through all of what you’ve posted here, (a) your response to me, (b) your thoughts on Kundalini Tantra vis-à-vis Sant Mat, addressed to One Initiated, and (c) your posts on the skeptic-forum website, that you’d linked to in your response to me. Absolute pleasure, going through them. Instructive as well, needless to say.

You’d indicated that time’s short with you. So instead of soaking up your time with wordy comments and general observations, I’ll cut to the chase already, and quickly jot down five short (or perhaps not so short) follow-on queries I had. Go through them, would you, when you have time?

If you are able to respond when convenient, great. [ Don’t worry, I’m not proposing a bottomless drain on your time via an endless loop of answers from you and further questions from me! :-) A topic such as this can hardly be exhausted easily, but we may, for now, be able to bring this exchange of ours to a satisfactory conclusion -- satisfactory to both of us -- with just one more comprehensive response from you. ] . Else if you choose not to post again, as you’d earlier indicated, well no problem. Formulating this comment will at least, then, have helped me get my own thinking in some order. I’ll be happy, then, to think I’d simply “directed my thoughts to the skies” like you’d suggested! :-)

(1) Tell me a bit more, please, about the Kundalini aspect of your non-duality experience

I was intrigued to see you talk about your non-duality experience in “kundalini rising” terms in one of your posts in the thread you gave me, the one you’d started on the skeptico-forum website. You simply mentioned the two there in equivalent terms (non-duality / kundalini rising), as it applied to you, without elaborating further about the connection / equivalence. That is what I’d like you to speak of now, please.

Here’s the context : I don’t know if you’ve been following my exchange with Osho Robbins, but in my comment addressed to him and posted here on June 13 at 07:43 AM, I’d spoken of my dear old friend who’d had an experience, a breakthrough, very similar to Osho Robbins’s, except that she herself interpreted it wholly in terms of her Kundaline rising up spontaneously to her Sahasrara, and she turned to Tantra Practice to understand (and try to get a handle on) what was happening to her. (Come to think of it, she was quite a fan of Ramana Maharshi’s, and had actually gifted to me a book on that seer. We’d never spoken on non-dualism, she and I, except in passing, despite having spoken a great deal about her experience, about her Practice, about her further experiences and Siddhis, and about the Tantric framework to all this. Now, basis my discussion with Osho Robbins, I see her gift to me, that book, as possibly more than just a random choice. We live in different cities now, she and I, different cities well removed, but I’ll try to visit her one of these days -- she hates having to use the phone -- and see if she can throw any further light along these lines.)

Anyway, all that incidental gabbling was the context for what I’m requesting you for : your further thoughts on what you’d described as the Kundalini-rising aspect of your non-duality experience.

(2) Your “pre-cognition” of the women with the witch-like brooms at Beas :

That was a remarkable vision of yours, what you mention in your comment addressed to me. You’d never visited Beas, and yet you had this very strong déjà vu moment when you first landed there, complete with graphic memories of the type of brooms you’d never even seen before.

You dismiss that, now, by calling it “pre-cognition”, but that doesn’t explain anything, does it? And surely such a remarkable phenomenon deserves deeper thought and some effort at some explication? (Unless there is an obvious explanation, like you mother or aunts or grandmother or somebody, having described the place to you when you were younger.) That kind of mundane explanation, although an anti-climax, is quite likely I suppose. But barring some such mundane explanation -- which, incidentally, you do not yourself put forward in your comment -- do you have any further thoughts on this kind of “pre-cognition”?

(3) Your experiences with the Naropa dream-exercises/practices you mention in your skeptico-forum post :

I hadn’t heard of those specific exercises, Naropa dream-control I mean, but I’d heard of roughly similar practices in other contexts (Gurdjeff’s methods, for instance) That Naropa thing, did you try it out yourself? If you did, can you talk about what it was like? I’m specifically interested in what it is like to have the “unbroken consciousness” you speak of, across the three states of wakefulness, dream and deep sleep. (You mention the last as the most fulfilling state.) And is this a state that lasts, this continuous-consciousness thing, or is something transitory?

If this something you’ve merely read about, then don’t trouble yourself too much, a very brief account will do, or perhaps not even that. I can always look it up myself. But if you’ve had first-hand experience, then I’d like to know, in as much detail as you’d care to explain it in!

(4) I’ll ask again, and see if you have some more thoughts on the “why” (I mean the utility, the why-should-I-try-for-this) of this non-dual realization :

I’ve already asked you this, and you do speak about this in your comment addressed to me. The cryptic and not-very-clear tick-all-three boxes, with answers ranging from “no use at all” to “priceless”. Which I have to say I didn’t quite know what to make of, not exactly. As well as your caution, warning, that this could spell the end of ambition, of intimacy, as well as general attachments, rendering normal wealth-gathering and normal relationships impossible.

Point taken, about that caution. Also, I appreciative that to someone “special” like you, who’ve had spiritual experiences (or call it something else if you don’t like the word “spiritual” or “special”) jumping you unawares all your life, this could indeed be invaluable as a handle to hang it all onto.

But what about a more ordinary person? What about *me*, to take a specific example? Does it make any sense for me to spend any time on this, at all?

(And I mean this quite apart from just taste and predilection and general proclivity. Like the question -- should one take the trouble to learn to play or at least to learn to understand and appreciate classical music, and what is the use? The answer is to that is : no use as such, but it can give you a great deal of pleasure if your tastes lie that way. Is that what you meant? That and no more? That is a very trivial answer, and if that is what you meant, then I do understand you clearly. If not, if you meant more than that, then what? Your thoughts please.)

In fact, I’ve asked this exact same question to Osho Robbins as well, earlier, and will again. And I’m interested in your take as well, because I sense that although Osho Robbins is your mentor, you are unlikely to have swallowed everything he says blindly. You will have (probably) worked this out yourself, in your way. That is why I’d like your views as well.

Do consider one specific aspect of this question as well. When your heart stops beating, and your brain stops doing what it does, and you are dead, dead, dead -- and I am, as well (without having had this non-dual realization, let us say) -- then post that death of both of us, will you and I be any differently placed, in any sense at all? (Again, I realize you may not “know”, in fact you probably *won’t* know with certitude. I’m asking for your thoughts, for your informed speculation.)

(5) And finally :
(a) Do you share Osho Robbins’s worldview of Oneness, or are you more a “this is what happened to me, and One-Consciousness may be one possible explanation, but I don’t really know one way or the other” kind of guy? You do mention some speculative worldviews in your skeptico-forum thread, but that was a few years ago, plus you say there that you’re simply throwing ideas around for fun. What *is* you actual worldview now, is what I’m asking.
(b) Have you found some kind of closure now, after your non-duality episode, in connection with your earlier flood of experiences? In what sense? (In some detail, please.) The integrating the non-dual in your daily life, that Osho Robbins speaks of in his comment to me, how did that translate into reality specifically in your case? (In as much detail as you feel comfortable sharing. Anything you deem private, naturally I won't trouble you for.)


Dear Osho Robbins,

Thanks so much for these last few posts. Especially the shorter one, posted June 15 at 12:30 AM, where you actually describe your post-Realization “experiences” (for want of a better word ; I mean what it actually feels like post-Realization). As you may be aware, with your extensive reading, what you say seems to correspond very closely with Theravadin accounts of the Buddha’s post-Nirvana condition, the interval in between the point when he had his Realization and the point when, a few days later, he finally got up to seek out his first five disciples (or was it four? I forget the details, but you know what I mean).

Except those ancient accounts are so overlaid with myth and so embroidered with poetry that it becomes difficult to sift fact from fancy (always assuming there is a core of fact there, which again is by no means certain).

Sorry, I digress. There is enough meat in your comments to keep us both fully occupied, without me wandering off into by-lanes of incidental thoughts. Let me try to focus, focus, focus.


Like I said, the first “level” of my discussion with you I see purely in terms of my simply understanding what you have to say about your perception of Oneness. That is, for me, by far the more important of the two aspects of this discussion. (The other “level”, the other aspect, is to explore your subsequent worldview, consequent to that perception. That is where our debate on subjectivity comes in. But we’ll get to that later. That is important too, but less important -- to me -- than simply understanding your basic perception of Oneness.)

I enjoyed going through the second installment of your ONE-NEXT dialog as well. I see what you’re doing here. Both my direct association with you these last few days (association online, I mean) as well as Manjit’s direct hint in his comment to me, indicate that what you’re trying to do is to give me an indirect idea of something that cannot be directly described. I get that. You’re also giving me an idea of what the actual process of triggering Oneness might be like, in fact you say as much clearly in that last ONE-NEXT dialog of yours. Thank you for that perspective, Osho Robbins, I appreciate it.

Actually what I am myself trying to do here is to get an overall idea, as detailed as feasible within this forum, of your particular perception. Towards that end, may I take our conversation on to a somewhat more focused channel? I’ve learn a good bit from you, and there were a few other specific things I wanted to ask you, if I may.

The first of these things I wanted to ask you is this :

On mulling over all of what you’ve described and said here, and Manjit did as well, one thing that occurs to me is this : that although we seem to be using the two terms as near-synonyms in our discussion here, we’re talking, basically, of not one but TWO perceptions : first, the perception of nothingness, and second, the perception of oneness. I’d like to explore that particular nuance a bit further with you, please.

Let me highlight that for your easy reference :

Follow-on Query 1 : It seems to me that there are two separate aspects to your realization. The first is the realization of NOTHINGness. And the second is the realization of ONEness. Talk more to me about that, would you?

The first of these (nothingness) is fairly easy for me to understand, in principle that is. The current scientific paradigm seems to be pointing out that our “self” is basically a fiction, it has no real existence per se. It is simply an interesting by-product of the model-building “software” that our brain comes equipped with, and which can be explained satisfactorily by evolutionary processes. It is fairly easy to conceive (although no doubt far from easy to actually realize) that such “absence of self” may be intuited first-hand as well (as well, that is, as intellectually understood). Should that happen, then there we have it : your realization of NOTHINGness.

But it doesn’t stop there, does it? We seem to have another, bigger realization that comes up next : that of ONEness!

So how does that work? Is it that one first realizes Anatta, no-self, and subsequently Tat-tvam-asi/Tathata, Oneness? Or is it that both realizations are simultaneous, perhaps different aspects of the very same thing? Can you have one without the other, Anatta without Tat-tvam-asi, or the latter without the former? Your considered views on all of this, please. And drawing on your personal perceptions and personal thoughts, please, not scripture or long-dead seers. No offense meant, and I hope we have fully put our initial misunderstandings behind us by now! It is just that I don’t much care for scriptural quotes or third-person perspectives of seers, at least not when I have the rare chance of engaging with first-hand flesh-and-blood perception.

Follow-on Query 2 : Why “guide others to this nothingness”? What for? Of what use is this after all?

You talk of putting on the battered remains of your ego, and setting off to guide others towards this nothingness/oneness that you have yourself discovered.

(And I understand what you say, that this is not the only option, but just one of three options. The Buddha was faced with a similar cross-roads, per Theravadin lore. You may choose to simply give up your body and life, just sit there under your Bo-tree and let it all dissolve away ; or you may “bring the Buddha back to the earth”, as you say, and “draw water, cut wood” again ; or you may guide others towards nothingness. I’m trying to understand the purpose and the implications of this last option now.)

And, as you can see, that takes us back to the question I’d asked earlier : What is the whole purpose of all this? What use? Because if there’s no use to this, then there’s no reason to ask anyone to do this either, is there, or even to indicate to them that such a thing might be?

Now wait, I can understand what use someone like Manjit may have for this. His unsought-for “spiritual” experiences were driving him out of his mind, and he was trying to somehow find some kind of structure to understand what was happening to him, to make some sense of it all. To someone as desperate as he, sure, I can see what kind of use this “nothingness / oneness” might be.

But surely that’s very rare, extremely rare? Vanishingly rare, even? For most other people, ordinary people, for our friend Joe Everyman whom I’d introduced in this discussion earlier, for instance … someone who is more or less materialistic, more or less apatheistic, not overly concerned with religion ; someone who is fairly successful and fairly happy (although that also means, naturally, fairly unsuccessful at times and fairly unhappy at times) ; in short, your regular ordinary Joe kind of people : why introduce this nothingness/oneness business to people at all?

Why should Joe Everyman want to aspire for, or try for, this realization of oneness/nothingness? And why would you want to spend time and effort guiding him towards that end? What for? Why not just let him be? (And obviously, no one is trying to *force* Joe to meditate or realize nothingness, that isn’t what I’m saying, at all. In fact Joe may even actually walk up to you ; because he is curious, as all/most humans are, and he is mildly and casually interested in very many things : in cosmology, for instance, and in quantum physics, in neuro-science, in cutting-edge medical research, and also in spirituality and religion and “all that”. But even then : even if he should himself come up to you asking, not desperately like the one or two Manjits you may encounter in your entire life, but kind of half-seriously-and-half-casually, even then why would you even *want* to “guide” Joe towards your nothingness, if the poor chap stands to gain nothing from it? Not the vanishingly rare Manjits -- who will number in the ones and twos in all of your life probably, low single digits, if that -- but our ubiquitous Joe?)

Follow-on Query 3 : After we die (that is, after our heart stops and brain stops, and our body is consigned to earth or flame), then will there be any difference at all in what happens to the Realized person and the ordinary non-Realized person?

This is just a variation of my follow-on query # 2, but after you’ve tackled that, I’d like you to explain this to me separately, please, to cover this specific aspect of this issue.

Like I remember asking you earlier, will ordinary Joe and ordinary Me be any more alive or any less alive after we die than will realized You? (Or, if you insist on calling yourself ordinary, then between ordinary Joe and ordinary Me on the one hand, and ordinary-but-Realized you on the other?) And will our post-death condition be any different? (If our post-death condition is nothingness, non-existence, then we’re all of us equally nothing. But if our post-death condition is Oneness, then very many options and possibilities present themselves. I’d like you talk about what you think happens. Again, using your own thoughts and words and perceptions, and as far as possible avoiding scripture and dead-seer quotes.)

Osho Robbins, I’ll stop here for now. I’ve still not gone into the second part of what I want to discuss, which is full implication of the subjective nature of your worldview (despite your direct perception of Oneness). I’ll leave that for later on. That second part is important too, certainly, very important, but to me the first part, understanding your direct perception, that is by far the more important aspect of our discussion. And I’d rather not divert our attention from this first part yet. (And your very last comment here, about the nature of reality, falls under that category, so I am not touching on that just yet.)

After I’ve understood a bit more about your Realization perception, we can then move on to the next part, which is your worldview consequent to your perception and the implications of the essentially subjective nature of such worldview. (That sounds ominous, I know, in terms of setting the stage for a long-drawn-out discussion --- but no, it need not take all that long : just one considered and detailed response from you now to this particular post of mine, and one more focused exchange about the subjectivity issue afterwards, that should just about nail it.)

Perhaps you could take each of my four follow-on queries, one by one, quote them in full, and then put in your considered response to each? No offense meant when I say that, Osho Robbins ! Like I said, I do hope we’re past our initial misunderstanding now, and hopefully won’t need to refer back every time to that unfortunate unpleasantness! I’m NOT trying to unnecessarily dictate the mode of this discussion, or to demand from you, on whim, some particular kind or mode of answer, or anything like that! It’s just that doing what I suggest can help keep this conversation focused, and stop it from unraveling off into an endless loop. That is why I have, in schoolboy fashion (or, alternatively, in legalistic fashion), actually gone and called my questions “follow-on query #1”, “follow-on query #2”, etc, and highlighted them clearly in bold letters and set them apart, so that there is no way you will miss them or get confused. Just copy each, in full, and (after reading all of what I have to say about it) put in your full response underneath. Each of them, one by one by one. Just one single focused and detailed comment from you, addressing all of that, would, I should think, then be ample, for you to fully convey to me the broad gist of your perception proper.

P.S. I’m loving this discussion, and learning from it. You’re the one supplying the knowledge, and I am the one absorbing it (or trying to), but I do hope that you’re enjoying this as well. I’ll look forward to your response. But let me not take your participation for granted ! If for any reason you’re pressed for time, and/or you generally need some time to think through and formulate a detailed and complete response, then just let me know and we’ll take a break for a few days, a week, whatever you are comfortable with -- if at all you want to, I mean. Although like I said, I sense we may be very close now to wrapping this up, already, all of it, with just two or three more focused posts (one comprehensive post regarding your perception, now, basis the follow-on queries I have asked here ; and then after that one more focused exchange about the subjectivity/objectivity aspect).

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