Gurinder Singh: the One is the goal, God without attributes

I no longer believe in God. Meaning, a God who is this or that, a God who can be described, who can be known, who can be experienced.

But I'm very much open to the notion that One is at the heart of reality. Heck, I wrote a book called "Return to the One" about the teachings of Plotinus, a Neoplatonist Greek philosopher. 

After all, something has to have always existed, or existence wouldn't exist. So why not call this the "One"? Just don't ascribe any attributes to the One, because the One couldn't have any attributes, being, obviously, One. 

Interestingly, Osho Robbins asked a question of Gurinder Singh, the current guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (the spiritual organization I belonged to for about 35 years), that shows the guru looks upon God in much the same way as Plotinus did.

Which isn't how most RSSB disciples do.

They still think of God as some sort of person, or at least as a being that can be known. Likewise, they consider that heaven, or Sach Khand as RSSB terms it, is some sort of place rather than a quality of being or an essence of existence.

Here's what Osho Robbins sent me as a guest blog post. I'm pleased to share it. "BabaJi" is an Indian term of respect for the guru, Gurinder Singh. 

I asked BabaJi a question at the last Sunday gathering. I asked him to explain about SARGUN and NIRGUN.

His first response was “Are you trying to test me?”

I said “No,”, because I wasn’t – I just wanted him to comment on the subject.

The response he gave was pretty impressive but I somehow think hardly anyone in the congregation understood him.

What he said was that SARGUN is God with attributes – the path we all follow and NIRGUN is the goal – the God without any attributes – the ONE. Sargun is the MEANS and Nirgun is the END or GOAL.

So the Goal is to get to the ONE – where these is no duality.

This is in line with the notion that the Guru cannot come at the time of death because there is only ONE, and there is no place to take the soul.

The idea of the guru coming at death and taking the soul to Sach Khand is as naïve as the notion of Father Christmas.

Sach Khand is not a place – so why is everyone keen to go there? What do they think is awaiting them in Sach Khand?

The true goal of Sant Mat is to DIE. Meaning the EGO (the ‘I’) dies, which means there is no longer a YOU who wants to go to Sach Khand.

That is the real meaning of “die while living”. Eliminate the ego WHILE you are alive – realize there is no YOU – no separate self. Just a deluded little disciple who thinks he is privileged and will go to Sach Khand.

-- Osho Robbins

Comments

[Osho robbins]

The first sentence above is most intetesting. The scriptures agree with the statement that God does not refer to a being. Which means God as a being with attributes does not exist.
GSD confirms this. The followers on the other hand are seeking a God with attributes namely Sat Purush or Anami Purush.

The REASON that Gurinder says He is NOT coming at the time of death is because how can THE ONE come to get the NOT ONE. There is ONLY the ONE.

GSD a.k.a. BabaJi has quoted Paltu many times.

There is only the ONE there is no other.

Paltu iko ik hai dusar nahin koi.

Cant be any clearer than that.

As far as I am aware GSD is the only living sant mat guru to make this statement.

He also says that there are no regions to visit and that the whole purpose is to realize the ONE.

So why are the followers so confused.

Its because they cannot let go of the old duality teachings.

[777]

They don't need let go
Both explanations are correct
Each Soul, being Omnipotent makes His own Sach Khandeach nano-nano-second
Isn't that nice
Why blame Gurinder for explaining a little bit better even than Patanjali plus giving an excellent method every moron can apply

777

[777]

“die while living”
It's a dynamic process , a wave
is stop thoughts and automatically the "die" experience occurs and even better

It's fantastic if at that time, . . you are busy to Love, have a giant crush on
Shabd, The Words or Him
or all four ° at the same time

[Jim Sutherland]

I think this Article I posted on my blog is worth a read again, regarding Oneness. Osho Robbins and the Oneness Advaita believers are nothing new, and even if Gurinder Singh is now preaching Oneness, is no reason to reject Sant Mat, where every Vedenta Devotee will remain for millions of Space Time Earth years before ever becoming the One.
http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2015/10/eat-drink-and-make-merry-for-tomorrow.html

[Osho robbins]

Jim,
I did not imply that advaita or oneness is something new. Nor that radha soami should now be rejected because GSD teaches oneness.

Your next statement is about time. Oneness is here and now. No tomorrow no goal no future.

Oneness is not an attainment or something to aim for.

It is a realization and it happens now.

777,
I am not blaming Gurinder. Rather i am saying kudos to him and congratulating him.

As for the method; you cannot be serious

Satsangis spend decades meditating then come to the mic to ask for grace.

The method has no merit.

[JJ]

Babaji has been talking of such for years ... its us satsangis, westerners included with 30/40+ years under their belt, who can't let go of ideas/concepts of the living master coming to greet them at death of the body & etc, and that makes it a bit tricky if trying to grapple with principles of oneness/Self/advaita et al? And - regardless of superficialities - what is incompatible in continuing to practice Sant Mat, doing the simran/japa, in the hope of realisation of I am That, dissolution? When the time is right so to say, as Ramana clarified, mantra/simran (which has taken you so far) will fall away of its own accord and then 'who' is there to worry about 'what next' anyway?

[Ddhists, or Anami of Radhasoami, Jim Sutherland]

Osho, I either reach "Oneness" or None ness, or Samadhi of the Hindus, or Nirvana of the Buddhists, which to me, seems like the Void. No Sound, Light, Visuals, only Awareness that "i" still am. But even then, ansolutely no thoughts. I reach that Void almodt every time I meditate. Do you think that Void is Anami Plane of Radhasoami , or the Void below the Causal? If you and Gurinder Singh do not recognisre seoerate Planes, then how do you differentiate between inner sites and sounds? I posted a fsirly recent inner ecpetince hete, on another thread, and never ven received a "Hum Ho" or "Bull S---" from any of the Exers here. I'll podt it hetevagsin, i cade you missed it, and dince you and Manjit appear to be the resident meditation experts on Brian's church, other than David Lane who is too shy to return to Brian's Church and confess his new found fondness of Gurinder Singh dince he vistited the Dera, I'll post it agsin, amd ask you whete I was during this ecpetience,. o.e. Which Plane? Did I travel to whete Chran is, or fid he travel to find me, whete ever I was? All other responses are weelcomed as well. Reverend Hines?
I was about an hour and a half in to my morning meditation. I had passed thru the Light areas, which I usually do in 20-30 minutes, then passed quickly thru the visual dream scape areas, to rest in the Void, or Samadhi where I usually end up after about an hour in to meditation. That time, with out warning, Charan Singh appeared in full body, looking just about as he did in his later hears. He was clothed the same, and he was standing up right beside me, 6 inches away, so I must have been standing also. Of course, I was shocked, and surprised. He had never once ever spoken audibly to me before, in all the years I had seen him inside. But this time, he looked right at me and said, in his very same accent, ..."Brother, your body needs Asprin!" Not a very spiritual message to receive from your Master from Sach Khand, huh? The back ground was, my Doctor had put me on one 81 MG Asprin daily when I was 60 years old, and I had taken it daily for 10 years, but quit taking it at 70 because it is a blood thinner and was making me bleed. I answered Charan, telling him my story why I had quit taking Aspirin. In fact, I had long ago forgotten about Asprin, and never intended to take it again. I told Charan that it made me bleed, but he answered,..."Brother, your body needs Asprin. Just use less if it makes you bleed. " While he was saying this, he had his left hand on my right shoulder! He was a little shorter than me, as I was looking down at him a couple of inches. I then was ready to unleash a barrage of questions on him, when he vaporized, and disappeared? I loved that he addressed me as " Brother", as he always addressed males. So, it appears he has not yet carried all of his Marked Sheep to Sach Khand Yet. When Charan appeared to me last time, I thought it was to tell me my time in this body is almost finished, but it appears the warning was to keep me in the body awhile longer. I had been experiencing chest pains, which subsided as soon as I returned to my Asprin a day. “

[Osho robbins]

Jim
Whatever you see inside is a projection and a creation of your mind as are the inner regions and the form of the master and any communication from him.
You dont see kirpal singh or jesus or mohammad because you have no connection with them.
You saw Charan singh and he gave you a message.
Really its your own mind communicating with you. Charan singh is not interested in whether you live an extra ten years or die today.

The oneness is not the void. It is not an experience. It is not something you work towards and eventually achieve.

It is not a goal.

It is now.

It is here.

You dont do anything to get it. It is already the case.

No meditation. No method. No practice.

It is a realization.

Of what already is , was , and will be.

Namely that the "I" that seeks is unreal.

There is nothing to seek and no seeker.

The oneness is nothing.

A man came to the buddha and was told to get to nothing. After many years he returned and said he had achieved nothing.
"Excellent" said Buddha, "now throw it away"
The man could not.
"The only point in getting nothing is to throw it. If you cannot throw it then it must be something pretending to be nothing"

Enlightenment cannot be a decoration for your ego. You cannot claim it.
The claimer is gone

Jab hum hoti tab tum nahin
Ab tum ho hum nahin - Kabir

While "I" (ego) was you (god) was not.
Now YOU are because "I" am not.

The wave disappears into the ocean. No wave remains. The wave is not aware of the ocean. It does not witness it. The wave is gone because it was unreal and momentary. The ocean remains and is not a collection of waves. It is simply the ocean.

There are no individual waves. There are no individual souls.

[Ddhists, or Anami of Radhasoami, Jim Sutherland]

Osho,
Before I forget, or get on to another subject, no offense, of course, but I disagree with almost all of your comments above.

You are an obvious convert to Neo- Advaitism , Ramana, Niz, Poonji speculations. I read Vedenta Scriptures years ago, and was never drawn to agree that I was ever, or will ever be God, in totality.

That is why I was drawn to Sant Mat, which allows me to retain my individuality, as a grain of sand on the beach, or desert, rather than merging into an ocean as a wave that was never created as an individual, much less seperate, as a drop seperates.

Charan Singh said souls recognize each other in Sach Khand, and when the flame from an individual candle merges in a larger flame, and appears as one single flame, then is again removed from the larger flame, it retains its individuality.

The spirit of man is the candle of The Lord.
.
These subjects could be argued indefinitly, proving nothing. Also, as my blog Article argues, paraphrasing, we mght as well eat crap and die, if we believe what you just tried to articulate above.

You may live your life trying to belive such nonsense, but as for me, no Thank You. I have Eternity planned ahead of the Higher Soul who has projected this life as Jim.

Cheers,
Jim

[Penny Lee joint locker]

You cannot separate oneness from duality. Osho you theorize alot but i appreciate your effort but you are still far away of realizing of what you copy paste from other books or mystics.

[777]

Jim Wow

So much to do, . . so much to love , so much to feel
A la fibonacci . . . . It never stops, . . . it increases forever

God is not a fool to create a Soul, . . . next destroy . . .

Time and frequency

It takes TWO to dance the Tango

777

[Osho Robbins]

"I disagree with almost all of your comments" - Jim

Thank you for disagreeing.

If you agree I get no medals. If you disagree - no medals get taken away.

Everyone agrees or disagrees or doesn't have the faintest idea. None of it matters.

We are all using our minds to figure things out.

And the mind we are using is conditioned - so we see only what we want to see.

So if I agree - it just means my conditioning is similar.

The truth does not require anyone to agree or disagree. Truth remains regardless of agreement or disagreement.

Agreement is about belief but truth does not require belief. Belief is a barrier.

Realization is about DISCOVERY of truth. It's not an opinion or a conclusion.

There is an interesting video by Osho which goes into this in great detail.

Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ7KhWJu0vk

[Osho Robbins]

"Charan Singh said souls recognize each other in Sach Khand, and when the flame from an individual candle merges in a larger flame, and appears as one single flame, then is again removed from the larger flame, it retains its individuality" - Jim

This is impossible if ONENESS is the case. That is the whole meaning of ONENESS.

Otherwise it would be called MANY-NESS.

ONENESS means there is ONLY ONE and that the many is an illusion.

And it's not an opinion or a belief. It is a realization.

It is simply what is.

What is - IS; and what isn't ISN'T - your opinion or mine does not change it.

Humans are experts at delusion and love to be right - so their whole life is about being right. They care very little about truth.

"The truth shall set you free - but first it shall piss you off" - Gloria Steinem

The reason it first pisses you off is because you have to admit you were wrong.

[Penny Lee joint locker]

Quote osho....The reason it first pisses you off is because you have to admit you were wrong....

.....yeah right...osho. ...book learned book learned

[Ddhists, or Anami of Radhasoami, Jim Sutherland]

I have come to a recent conclusion, that our Astral bodies have parallel lives of their own , that are projected from our Higher Soul Self, which is the higher area of our Causal bodies, where all past life memories are stored. MANY Astral past life shells still exist the the Astral Plane, and are what we see and encounter during dreaming, lucid dreams, and even pass thru in Meditation after seeing the light, and hearing the sound. Our physical bodies have no memories, most of the time, about projections of our Astral bodies. But the Astral body remains attached to our physicsl body by the Dilver Cord, or Perispirit, which I have coined as the "Condom of the soul." According to David Lane's Guru, Faqir Chand, he claims he never went any where, or projected, yet mamy of his followers SAW his projected Astral body, as well as HEARD him speek to them, warning them of possible empending dangers, as Charan Singh's Astral body did to me, in full clear view, with even his Accent, plus his touch. Osho, you might do a little study on Theosophy instread of buying in to Advaita nonsense, thinking you are me, and I am you, and we are God, but most of us Godlings are really hoping we never loose our individuality, permanently, including YOU! Even pigs rolling in their own poop think they are god and wouldn't change a thing in their lives, unless they knew they were quewed for Bacon.

[Osho Robbins]

You cannot separate oneness from duality - Penny Lee Joint Locker

It's a nonsense statement unless you clarify what you mean.

Oneness means there is only the ONE. That is the reality. There cannot be individuality within the oneness. Oneness means there is no individual soul. It means there is only the ocean and waves are just a passing phenomena that have no basis in reality.

To say that the waves will continue to exist forever within the ocean is equivalent to the notion that souls retain their individuality.

If that was the case - then that is the opposite of the ONENESS view. They cannot both be true.

To say they are both true - you need to explain the context in which you are making the statement.

I haven't cut and pasted anything in any of my comments. If i do - I quote the source. So not sure what you have an issue about. Why the attitude? If you have a constructive argument to make - make it.

That was a quote from Gloria Steinem - and you wrote "book learned" - WTF are you talking about? You make no sense.

Jim is giving his viewpoint - and i am doing the same. But you make pointless statements

[Osho Robbins]

Jim Sutherland,
Faqir Chand was saying that he does not have the power that is associated with the guru, namely that he is all knowing and comes in his radiant (astral) form to help the disciples and especially at death.

He further said that no such power exists and that the gurus are just pretending.

So it appears now that Gurinder has taken a stand to at least say he is not coming at death. At the same time - is is also saying there is only the ONE. He is not saying that souls retain their individuality.

As a matter of interest, can you tell me where Charan Singh states that souls retain their individuality in Sach Khand. I am not sure what his position was on this.

The traditional sant mat teachings are not clear as they talk of the wave merging with ocean.

A wave does not retain individuality simply because the wave was not a real entity in the first place and could not be separated from the ocean. It has no existence separate from the ocean.

[Penny Lee joint locker]

Osho it is a nonsense statemen cause you are booklearned you are just repeating quotes from books....and thus you dont understand. Even if i explain you will still have hard time to diggest.

[Osho Robbins]

Penny Lee joint locker,
you seem to know a lot about me considering you have never met me and don't know anything about my past or background.
You even know I am quoting from books and you are so wise that you even know I will not understand what you could explain to me.

Or maybe, you're just writing nonsense because you have nothing better to do. You still haven't explained or justified any statement you have made. Says a lot about you.

[Penny Lee joint locker]

..quote osho...Or maybe, you're just writing nonsense because you have nothing better to do...
...yes you are right

[Penny Lee joint locker]

I agree with all your comment about me osho.

[Ddhists, or Anami of Radhasoami, Jim Sutherland]

Osho, I have viewed most of your Sant Mat 1,ll, lll Videos, comparing to how Gurinder Singh presently teaches. I enjoyed all of them, and thought they were really well presented, in spite of my not agreeing at all with Advaita Vendenta Philosophy. Also, as for discussing what Gurinder Singh teaches , I really know very little to nothing, since I only saw him once in 1992 or 93 when he was a struggling new Successor of RSSB trying to do his Job. You surely know more about him than I do, as many posters here do. But I hear many, many great recent reports about how Gurinder Singh has matured in to his Role as Successor of RSSB, and many of his Initiates have seen his Radiant Form inside, during meditation. I believe these reports, and have a different belief system than you do about how these manifestations happen, or where they come from. I really find it almost hilarious that you imagine Charan Singh's Radiant Form manifesting to me is full visual view, and audably speakinig to me in his own accent that I, as an American English speaking person could never duplicate, and Charan was shape shifting from my own Self, who is God! I hope you don't close your mind to other possibilities such as Sant Mat Theology just might really have different Planes and Spiritual/material bodies layered with each other, having different experiences, all at the same time, who are being projected from their Higher Soul Selves. Until Dr. David Lane has the Cajunes to show up here ansd confess that his recent week at the Dera either convinced him that Gurinder Dingh is the Real Deal, i.e. A real Perfect Living Master, or,....he is just an older struggling Guru man playing the role of continuing to deceive the gullable, as you and most of the other Exers who post here, including Brian Hines, then these pissing contests will continue as entertainment for the Atheists. Cheers, Jim

[Ddhists, or Anami of Radhasoami, Jim Sutherland]

To Osho,......in case you have never scanned my blog, I also have been around the block a few times, and believe I am as qualified to present my views to be tsken seriously than any others here, who post. But my views are based on personal, experiences, not experiences taken from books parroted from others books. Before I was initiated by Thakar Singh, ( as you said you were, and again, we have much different views of him ) Not only was a Seminary Grad. with earned B.Min.,M.Min., Th.D., and a Pastor, but I spent TEN solid years studying and with the Rosicrucians ( AMORC ) and was inititiated in to all of the Degrees they offer, including Traditional Martialists. I consider my self a duly qualified Mystic after going through all of the following Degrees, in addtion to meditating using the Sawan Singh Technique since 1988, and being initiated by Charan Dingh in 1990. Osho,....please read thru the following Link on my blog and follow what I studied and was qualified to be initiatred in to every Degree they offer, and still tell me if you consider me one of the gullable Neophites that is not yet awakened to reaizing I am God of the Advaitist Ramana Niz Mooji types! Be honest, Brother!
http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2006/08/rosicrucian-amorc-degree-program.html

[Pema Tej]

Dear Osho,

I am/was a big fan of Osho (Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh), and I can appreciate you citing him in your comments. But, what's up with adopting his name?
Did you meet and spend time with The Osho?
I almost know for a fact that if such a Master such as Bhagwan Rajneesh was around today, I would have problems appreciating him/her style and methods, it is easy to enjoy him as I do now... from a convenient distance..
I have not seen or been with The Osho, but have enjoyed visits to the now' Osho International Meditation Resort in Pune, and loved the vibes there...
Also, got a new name ---Tejo, which I adopted from Sanyas celebration during one of my visits to the resort...
But now, I have recently adopted a Tibetan Buddhist name due to recent associations with friends of that background.
Anyway, just wondering about your background and how you got the name?
Thanx,
Pema Tej

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Jim,
I will reply in detail later - but here is my initial brief response.

First of all, I don't doubt you are genuine and sincere. You are making valid points and while we don't have to agree with each other - we can at least have an exchange of views without getting silly.

(unlike Penny - who just says "I agree" or "I disagree" which is pointless because I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees - but an intelligent person will put forward an argument - rather than just make unfounded statements like "You are book-read" and when asked to clarify - just avoids the question)

Clearly you meditate and have inner experiences which puts you is a different league from the masses of believers who just believe the dogma and never experience it.

Sant mat says - "do the meditation and see for yourself - then decide."

Which you have clearly done.

I am sorry if I came over flippant when I wrote that Charan Singh was just a projection from your own mind. I didn't mean it in a flippant manner.

When a person has a dream - it's totally convincing. It really seems like it is really happening at the time. You can even cry and laugh and go through all the emotions because in that moment it is real.

When you awaken from the dream - then you say "It was just a dream".

You also say that it was not real. Of course it was a real dream.

But what you mean is that it did not happen in the material physical world.

It did happen in the dream world or in the astral world.

However, the dream world is made up of our desires and a projection of our mind. Our mind creates the dream even though it seems real at the time.

The voices, the visions, the feelings - everything is realistic.

For example Charan Singh may appear in your dream. His voice, his personality - everything.

So you are not consciously creating this - but your mind is.

Charan Singh the person isn't really coming into your dream consciously.
It's your creation.

That is what I meant. Not that you consciously projected that image of Charan Singh and duplicated his accent.

Now one more point - I am not denying the existence of astral planes or spiritual regions. Just as there is a physical universe - there is an astral.

However, the question is "What is real?"

Why do we say the dream was unreal? because it ended. It was just for the moment.

So everything that is just for the moment is unreal in the ultimate meaning of the word.

The sikh scriptures have a word called "SAT" or "Truth"

SAT means that which WAS, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE - i.e. beyond time and changeless. That is what the scriptures define as REAL or SAT or TRUTH.

So while the physical universe exists and the astral exists - they are not ultimate REALITY or truth.

They are just for the moment. as is all phenomena.

That means YOU, ME, and all we experience. Everything is MAYA or illusion. It appears real in THIS moment - but it is within TIME and SPACE.

So then what is REAL? only that which is BEYOND time and space. Which can only be "nothing" "ONENESS" and "NO-Attributes".

Hence that is the ultimate reality.

It means there is nothing else but that.

However, You and I still experience this world of MAYA and inner regions. It's just that it is not ultimately REAL.

It is relatively real - in this moment only.

Ultimately there CANNOT be a separate self because everything that is separate eventually disappears (dies).

This is nothing mystical - just a simple observation and it doesn't require belief as it's not a theory.

So I don't deny the experiences you have - they are real in the moment.

I am just saying that the experiencer is unreal. YOU are unreal even though you appear to be real in THIS moment.

in Zen, a disciple goes to the master and has a candle with a flame. "Where did the flame come from?" he asks. The master blows it out and asks "Where has it gone?" "Where it has gone is where it came from"

Now, what the fuck does that mean?

It means there is no flame. The flame is there until the master blows it out. Now it's not there. It came from nowhere and it's gone back to nowhere.

Today I am here. One day soon this body will die. Then I am gone.

Who is the "I" what was here? making all kinds of claims and seeking eternity?

There wasn't one. And if there is no YOU then you cannot find anything after death of the body.

The body was born and the body died.

That is why Bulleh Shah says "Bullah, I will not die, let someone else die (the body")"

He doesn't mean that he is eternal - he means there is no separate self hence nobody to die because nobody was born.

The ego was the illusion that "I am" when in fact it is not.

"I AM " is an illusion because there is no "I"

Hence nobody to get enlightened to to arrive in Sach Khand.

So Jim, I am no denying the experiences or the regions

I am just saying they are not real.

That's all - just a small point.

[Spino]

You get quickly offended Osho.

[Osho Robbins]

Spino,
I am not quickly offended - but I call a spade a spade.

Anyone who makes unfounded remarks - I simply call them on their bullshit.

I invited Penny to explain the "book-learned, book-learned" comment.

Jim Sutherland does not agree with me - but puts forward the basis for his belief, and is open to listen to a different viewpoint.

I am also open to listen to his viewpoint. We can have a rational exchange of ideas.

Penny Lee on the other hand writes unfounded nonsense like this:

"Quote osho....The reason it first pisses you off is because you have to admit you were wrong....
.....yeah right...osho. ...book learned book learned"

This posting is nonsense and unfounded. When asked the basis of making the statement - no answer is forthcoming except a comment like
"Even if i explain you will still have hard time to digest."

[Penny]

Book learned means you are quoting others experience like Kabir or Shah and not having your own.
Osho do you see oneness land in your inner world?

[Ddhists, or Anami of Radhasoami, Jim Sutherland]

Osho, thanks tor the detailed Advaita Philosopy lesson. I have heard and read it all before, of course, but you make good clear points. I can not deny that in time and space, all is Maya, and is why Buddhist Philosophy of " Impermanence" applies to every thing in the material realms, including us, as unreal. I Can agree with that teaching, because I witness it each day, as I see my friends and relatives die. But in order to live in the moment, we all must have come from some where, to be here now, on the way to some where. I can look at my photos from childhood to present, and know Jim has changed body suits about every seven earth years. In the massive Rosicrucian Degree studies, in order to accurately give the answers to pass the written tests of each Degree before being accepted for Initiation in each Degree, we had to do each experiment, and test the Astral Realms in order to find the answers and report back. Of course, every Rosicrucian is under a promise to keep the Vows of confidentiality. But I had Many, Many, Astral projections while doing the exercises, so the Sant Mat experiences were not a surprise to me, when ever they happened. I think you are far too intellectual to be trapped in the belief that it all ends this time around, Osho. Next round, you will have a different body, even possible gender change, and hopefull, be back in a human body. I can not possibly upload my 75 years of beliefs, and experiences here, but I suggest you give some open minded thought to a Chain of Command, starting with God, called by many Names, including Radhasoami Anami Perush, and work on down, from pure Spirit soul, with diminishing spirit in each lower plane as the individual CREATED soul, which DID have a beginning, but now, has no end, because of being secuced by mind, as you stated. But using the Sant amat Tech. Provides the Key of of knowledge, the Key to unlock the Prison. I am a Bible Scholar and could quote the Bible to bore the Exers here enough to unsubscribe from Brian's Church. But the Bible and Adi Granth will both back up Sat Mat in what present Sant Mat Teachers teach, to what Jesus ( if a historical Jesus really existed. Doesn't matter, as Teaching remains). In the Chain of Command, the God of this world, i.e. Material impermanence Maya, seduces knotted soul/minds to remain in every Plane that still retains any trace of materiality. Individual Higher Soul Selves, retain every past life of each created soul , including Astral, Causal, Super Causal, etc. until the Wheel of 84, i.e. Charausi is vacated by the individual soul. If you don't want to exist, or believe you never existed and are only a present illusion, no problem. But as for me, I have Eternal Plans and other Planets to be born, live, and die on, until I have all the answers to the mysteries we argue about. Charan Singh is still alive, in his Astral body for certain, which appeard to me, and he has his Casaul body with a changed , less dense form at the same time, which are all projections from his Higher Soul Self, which is projected from Logos, a Neuron in the Mind of God. I suggest you Google Allan Chronshaw, and visit his Web sites to learn about Higher Soul Selves. You could sharpen your debating skills more by debating him than me. He rejects most of the Bible, Sant Mat, Reincarnation, but believes,.........do find out for your self. He is complicating!

[Ddhists, or Anami of Radhasoami, Jim Sutherland]

For Osho, and any intellectual Exer looking for a good debate. Go prepared to Rumble!
http://cronshaw.us

[777]

Yes Advaita is correct as far as the 3 lowest ( will not say regions here :-)) concerns
By ascese or perfect jnana one can unify with Brahma/Yahweh and dive in It ( the 1/7 time_space_proctor 1/7)

But better wait for next golden yuga again via incarn cause it's do-able then.

Same for 2/7 but that will take some more time
1/7 was only several big bang periods but now you must wait untill 1/7 (astral) evaporates

So ,. . one can together with Brahma/Yaweh seek access in Para Brahm/Jehovih and have hope . . .
Next repeat that 5 times more up to 7/7 5 ( Time_space_consciousnes 5/7 = called Sach Khand )
but there you stumble because the fact that you did it on your Own has its Lucifer effect , a nano-nano _to the power of Zillion -nano gram of proud will jump you completely out of sight

With all this I can reasonably declare that the RSSB method is a great lovely sweet short cut

You just unify by love with somebody who is already in that 7/7 sphere and enjoy !
Arriving at the "top" you will never have an idea of "I did That"

Holy Masters trick the proctors of these "7 Heavens" - they are not even aware that HE has a bunch of lovers in his pocket
BTW : while passing , they throw themselves in the dust for not burning alive

Like Jesus what are the old paraphrased mystic tales from Nanak, Tulsi and Sawan nice
for explaining quantum physics

777

Don't give Up ( Phil Collins ) - it'so sugar sweet !

[Osho Robbins]

Penny

Just because I sometimes quote from Kabir or anyone else does not mean I am book-learned. It just means I am giving a reference point.

The speakers in RSSB are what I call book learned. They are simply giving out teachings.

I used to be a speaker for RS back in the day and even then I was not giving out theory but pointing to being your own authority.

RS dont like that. They had a meeting with me in which they said that they want parrots
to simply give out the teachings.

I told them I was not a parrot and walked away from giving talks.

I am the last person you can call book-learned

here's a link to a live satsang I did in the Bham centre back in 2002

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwTQiZb_8zs

now does that sound like a book-learned person?

I speak from experience - Advaita is also not about repeating what the gurus say - but to go through the fire - which is what leads to realization - not just repeating words

[s*]

Hi all,
I really like the way Babaji Gurinder teaches now.
It becomes more logic to me.
So..I tell you ,I am happy with this.
The Oness..
All in One...
One light many lamps..
One voice,many songs..
Differences in Oness.

s*

[Ddhists, or Anami of Radhasoami, Jim Sutherland]

To Osho: I listened to your "Satsang" above, and think you are a an interesting Preacher. Sant Mat has lost a good Preacher, if you have really found a way to sever Charan's Bulldozer Chain. I recall hearing Charan say there is only Satsang when the Master is present, giving Satsang. Other wise, there are only " Meeting" when the Master is not there. So you were a Preacher giving a talk at a Meeting. I am sorry "They" took away your Speaking License. I really know how you feel, because I had a similar experience in 1983. I had graduated from the Berean Bible School, that was a requirement to be Licensed to Preach, in the Assemblies of God Churches, which is the largest Penticostal Fellowship of Christian Churches on earth. After I was Licensed, I became Pastor of the Assembies of God Church in my California City, and was preaching on Sundays and Wed. Nights, building my Congregation. Once a year, in order to have our Licenses renewed, we had to answer questions on a " Boiler Plate" type Fundamentslist Dogma" Organization Questioneer. I have never been a lying hypocrite, and always speak from my heart. I will always tell you what I think, not what you want to hear. So, I answered one of their Dogma questions that they didn't like. A couple of weeks later, I received a letter from the Headquarters President asking for my Resignation from the Assemblies, and thanking me for my Services!! At first, I was shocked, then very sad, then very bitter, then, reality set in. My entire life plan had changed because I couldn't lie on a questioner! So, I then entered a large Interdenominational Seminary, enrolled in their Degree Program, and was Ordained to preach in all their Churches. I lost my bittereness against the Assemblies of God Organization, and chalked it off as a Plan of god, or detour, for my life. After I graduated Seminary earning my Th.D. Degree, I had so much book leaning, that I lost interest in being a Preacher at all, and resigned from all Organizstions and returned my Ordination Credentials. I then was accepted by AMORC and worked thru their entire Degree Program, before discovering Sant Mat by reading The Path of the Masters. I immediately was hooked. I almost felt I had written that book, it was so familiar to me!! Then was initiated by Thakar who PUT me on the Path, until Charan accepted me for Initiation and has KEPT me on the Path, more or less, to present. But I am not a Sant Mat Fundamentailst, nor Hypocrite. I still say what I feel, and I most likely would never be accepted to be a Speaker for RSSB either, as I am much too eclectic, as you seem to be. So, why be bitter, and an enemy against RSSB or Sant Mat Masters? Just speak your own mind, and be happy, not bitter. And if you have no soul, never existed, are impermanent, and have no future, what difference does any of it make? But if nothing is real, why even eat, drink, or do any thing at all, if its all Maya? Unless you decide to enjoy Maya, you may as eat crap and die today, and put your self out of misery! ISIS is recruiting Suicide Bombers. I am sure they would be happy to jump start your Oneness! 😇😍💤💤💤💤

[Jeff]

Osho,

Since you were kicked out, is that why you became an exer? You never complained while you were enjoying all the attention and stardom, but soon as learnt that you cannot pose like a Guru yourself, your Ego was hurt, Big Time! Since you have become a cribber! None of your arguments have any weight. You say Sant Mat is changing, Sant Mat has remained the same for ages, only the way of expressing the teachings change from different times. The Satguru of the time puts forward the perspective and aspects which are appealing for the seekers of the time. Otherwise why is there even a need for a living master if they are to repeat whatever has already been said like puppets? Oh self-proclaimed authority on Sant Mat, you say as per the present teachings there is no SachKhand, there is only One? Have you ever thought about, One and many co-existing? Can One be conscious of its existence without the many? Can many be conscious of their existence without the One? If someone comes and says there is but One United States, does that mean there is no New York, California or Washington? Oh inventor of Sant Mat 2.0, you go on to crib about the statement – There is no Journey. A guy in New York went to sleep and travelled to India in his dream. For understanding, imagine another guy coming to dream to wake him so he realizes, he is in New York not in India. The guy says you will have to undertake a journey and travel back to New York, gives him the travel instructions, knowing that once he wakes up he will realize there was no India, he always in New York. Now, compare this with yet another guy who comes into his dream with the same objective of waking the dreamer up. This guy tells him there is no journey, but still gives him the travel instructions, why does he say there is no journey? Because that is what the experience will be when dreamer wakes up, there was no journey. So did the teachings change or mode of throwing the bait change? Oh Mahapurush, you say the old teachings were of duality and the new Guru introduced the teachings of Oneness. Let me present a Sawan Singh quote before you, My Lord, so you remember the traditional teaching, to be able to understand this, take off the ear phones which keep playing the new age pop music to you. Sawan Singh said Spiritual Gems - After the physical body and the astral form are cast off there is no chance for individuality because there is none left but the only Being.

There is still time left for you to repent and come back to the fold. I feel pity on new comers who fall in trap of people like yourself.

[Ddhists, or Anami of Radhasoami, Jim Sutherland]

To Osho and other Exers interested in Science and Physics, Richard Ruquest, Ph.D. Is a Physicist I met on a Theosophist site, and led to Sant Mat. He was initiated by Dr. Ishwar Puri in Jan. 2015. To any Exers desiring to hone their Sant Mat rebuttal skills, Dr. Ruquist has started his own Facebook site to discuss his T-Duality String Theory Conjectures that support Sant Mat as Ishwar Puri teaches. I was invited by Richard, so am lurking only, as I am not a Scientist. I see David Lane is there, who is most likely gathering further knowledge for his books.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/261776920960977/

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Jim,
nobody took away my speaker licence. I handed them my resignation because I was not prepared to be a "parrot" as they put it.

I was not bitter, because it was just light entertainment for me. I had no desire to continue.

I purposely did very few satsangs even though I was an authorised national speaker for over 5 years. I just did satsangs occasionally because I enjoyed it.

Once they started creating rules on how many satsangs must be done each year - I was ready to hand in my resignation anyway. I was never interested in doing the 'satsang seva' as a weekly chore. What for? I only did what I enjoyed, and occasional satsangs were enjoyable. Maybe once every three months. More than that was too much effort.

I wasn't in the slightest bothered about resigning.

I have nothing against RSSB or Gurinder Singh. In fact - I am impressed by the fact that he has come out and said things which to date no other sant mat master has done.

I have had some detailed discussions with him on the microphone.

He is clearly giving the new message that there is only ONE. There is no other. However because the followers are deeply immersed in the original duality teachings, they find it hard to understand what he is actually saying. Most of the followers believe it is a motivational statement made to make them meditate.

[Osho Robbins]

Jeff – I wasn't kicked out – I resigned. It's a huge difference and my ego was not hurt – because I was happy to resign.
“Since you were kicked out, is that why you became an exer? You never complained while you were enjoying all the attention and stardom, but soon as learnt that you cannot pose like a Guru yourself, your Ego was hurt, Big Time! Since you have become a cribber! None of your arguments have any weight. “ - Jeff
What attention and stardom? I purposely did very few satsangs. I did around maybe 15 satsangs over a five year period. When they changed the rules and said speakers have to do a certain minimum – I wasn't interested anyway.
“You say Sant Mat is changing, Sant Mat has remained the same for ages, only the way of expressing the teachings change from different times. The Satguru of the time puts forward the perspective and aspects which are appealing for the seekers of the time. Otherwise why is there even a need for a living master if they are to repeat whatever has already been said like puppets?”
Jeff – you can't see the obvious.
Sawan said “I just wave from a distance to the guru who will not come at my death to take my soul”
Gurinder says “I will not come at your death”
Reconcile that and tell me it is the same teaching! And that nothing has changed and it's just a different way of saying the same thing!
No previous master in RSSB has ever said that there are no regions. Gurinder has said so. No other master has said “burn the books.” Gurinder has.
No previous RSSB guru has said it's just about realising the ONENESS and that there is no sat purush and no Sach khand – they are just a way of explaining.
Only Gurinder has made those statements. If they were always part of the teaching, why were they kept secret?
“ Oh self-proclaimed authority on Sant Mat, you say as per the present teachings there is no SachKhand, there is only One? Have you ever thought about, One and many co-existing? Can One be conscious of its existence without the many? Can many be conscious of their existence without the One?”
Jeff – you don't understand the obvious. Of course they co-exist. Of course there is the world around me right now. That is obvious.
However, “There is only the ONE” means that only the ONE is REAL and TRUE – all else is an illusion. It doesn't mean they don't appear to exist in this monent.

“Oh inventor of Sant Mat 2.0, you go on to crib about the statement – There is no Journey.”
There is not journey because the ONE does not go anywhere and there is nowhere to go anyway. Because there is no time and space. Time and Space and both part of Maya (illusion). Everything within TIME and SPACE is unreal and an illusion.
Why is that so hard to understand?

“Oh Mahapurush, you say the old teachings were of duality and the new Guru introduced the teachings of Oneness. Let me present a Sawan Singh quote before you; Sawan Singh said Spiritual Gems - After the physical body and the astral form are cast off there is no chance for individuality because there is none left but the only Being.”
Really? Then why are there regions beyond the astral? How can there be a Sach Khand and an Anami purush if there is no individuality?
Do you even understand what “No individuality” means?
It means that NOBODY can go to Sach Khand and there cannot be a Sach Khand because there is only ONE! There cannot be any PLACE or SOUL to visit Sach Khand.
ONENESS means there is nothing. And nothing means Nothing – sweet F.A.
ZERO – Zilch – absence al all things, entities, regions, thoughts, being, etc.
“There is still time left for you to repent and come back to the fold. I feel pity on new comers who fall in trap of people like yourself.”
Thanks for the offer Jeff – but NO THANKS. Good try though.
And don't feel pity for anyone. No newcomer will fall into my trap.
Because there is no trap. Just the truth.

[Jen]

I'm so over the ego bashing that satsangis are into. So amazed that Gurinder has actually changed the teachings. Why don't the newcomers read the books, surely they will see the inconsistencies with the original teachings and what Gurinder is now preaching. So gullible. Such a fake path.

If we just merge back into oneness why bother with the four principles. May as well eat, drink and be merry. No goal or purpose in life. No karma, no destiny, no evolving into something more. Just sheeple like everyone else. Just eat, live, die.

[Jeff]

Osho,

O perplexed One! Let me try to explain what your closed mind has not been able to grasp, but be able to catch it you will have to open it up buddy, shun your Ego for a bit. The previous masters have said the radiant form of the master comes at the time of death. The present Great One has differentiated between the outer form and the inner form. The outer physical form has limitations. No past master ever said physical form of the master will come at the time of death. The present Great One clarified so no misunderstandings remain and initiates attach themselves with the Shabd Form which indeed has the power to take back the soul, not the physical. You have failed to understand both past and present teachings, as you say they are different. You are yourself confused and you try to confuse others also. You say the present Great One has said, there are no regions. Oh toddler on the subjects of philosophy, the present Great One has also said loose to win. Now will you hop and shout at the peak of your voice and say the past teachings were to win and the present teacher having changed them is asking us to loose. Wake up from your slumber, if you will? These are the contradictions in life that you have think deep about. Listen O Self Proclaimed authority on Sant Mat, you say the present great one has said burn the books and no past one ever said that. You have again failed to understand the essence, or rather you understood very well, but you still have bitterness left within you. Have you ever thought about if he literally meant to burn the books, then why does he keeps on publishing more and more books? Think about it, even if your Ego cries, not to worry! Sar Bachan says “Priests read and recite the scriptures, they too waste their energies in learning and preaching.” What is the point there Masters are trying to make? Knowledge cannot replace experiences. You try and present a part of Master’s statement to try and trap the innocent seekers in your web? O book learned One, Sar Bachan says trees in Satlok are laden with rubys and diamonds, now if someone says there are no trees, rubys or diamonds in Satlok, your puny little mind will say teachings have been changed. None of your arguments make any sense, if you think by these arguments you can bring innocent seekers under your influence, it’s not going to work. You act like a toddler who learns some alphabets on first day of school and tries to teach his Ph.D parents. You cannot fool anyone by presenting sub-statements to for your malicious motives.

[Osho Robbins]

Reply to Jeff's message about my closed mind:

“O perplexed One! Let me try to explain what your closed mind has not been able to grasp, but be able to catch it you will have to open it up buddy, shun your Ego for a bit. The previous masters have said the radiant form of the master comes at the time of death. The present Great One has differentiated between the outer form and the inner form. The outer physical form has limitations. No past master ever said physical form of the master will come at the time of death. The present Great One clarified so no misunderstandings remain and initiates attach themselves with the Shabd Form which indeed has the power to take back the soul, not the physical.” - Jeff

What utter nonsense! You say that the present master has differentiated between the inner and outer form of the master. Well – so have the past masters.

What a pointless statement to make! What is there for me to grasp in your answer? No previous master has ever said or implied that the physical form of the master will knock on the door 10 minutes before you die. You say the Great One (Gurinder) clarified this.

Clarified what? That the physical master is not coming at death? You think that needs clarifying? You really think the present sangat is that stupid that they are waiting for a knock on the door?
I am pretty sure that the current sangat never thought that the physical master appears at the time of death. That does not need clarification. I am sure Gurinder is not on stage clarifying the obvious! He is not talking to two year olds, that he needs to say “Listen guys, I just want to make it clear. I will not come in my physical body to save you at death. It is going to be the Radiant form that will collect your soul. Got it guys? I just wanted to clarify so nobody misunderstands.”

Jeff – please tell me you are not serious and that maybe you were on drugs when you wrote that, or half asleep!

Or are you saying that Gurinder is really trying to clarify that the physical form is not coming at death?

Obviously Gurinder's PHYSICAL form is not coming at death – that does not need clarification. And I am sure that Charan's initiates did not think that Charan Singh is coming in his physical body to collect them. Especially as his physical body has been burnt!
That does not need clarification, so clearly that is not what Gurinder means when he says “I am not coming at the time of death” But somehow you have taken his statement to mean that he is not coming physically. That is NOT what he means. He means he is not coming in the RADIANT or INNER form!
Even you must surely understand that.

He has HIMSELF explained what he means so people cannot misunderstand him. He says, “please try to understand what I am saying. If there is ONLY THE ONE, how can “I” come to get “YOU”? And WHERE will I take you?”

Jeff – nobody except you thought he was saying he is not coming in his physical. That is not something that needs clarification.

“You have failed to understand both past and present teachings, as you say they are different. You are yourself confused and you try to confuse others also.” - Jeff
They ARE different.
Let me spell it out:

(1) Gurinder is saying “No master is coming at the time of death in his RADIANT FORM”
(2) Previous masters said: “The master IS coming in his RADIANT FORM”

Clearly (1) is different from (2)
You just don't want to face the obvious, so you have twisted his statement to mean
“I am NOT coming in my PHYSICAL body, but I will of course still come in my RADIANT FORM - just wanted to clarify that guys. Thanks for coming to satsang. See you next time guys”
Jeff – are you really serious? Is that what you think he meant?

You finish off by writing
“None of your arguments make any sense, if you think by these arguments you can bring innocent seekers under your influence, it’s not going to work. You act like a toddler who learns some alphabets on first day of school and tries to teach his Ph.D parents. You cannot fool anyone by presenting sub-statements to for your malicious motives.”
Jeff – please show me where my arguments don't make sense. And how yours do!
You really want to stick to your point of view that Gurinder was talking about the PHYSICAL FORM when he said “I am not coming at the time of death”?
I am afraid it's YOU who is trying to mislead intelligent people – not me.
And what exactly do you think my malicious motives are?
Wake up Jeff – as you are clearly on drugs or sound asleep!

[Osho Robbins]

Reply to Jeff's message – PART 2

carrying on, Jeff wrote:
You say the present Great One has said, there are no regions. Oh toddler on the subjects of philosophy, the present Great One has also said loose to win. Now will you hop and shout at the peak of your voice and say the past teachings were to win and the present teacher having changed them is asking us to loose. Wake up from your slumber, if you will? These are the contradictions in life that you have think deep about.” - JEFF
Jeff – Gurinder himself has clarified what he means. He has said that they are levels of consciousness – not regions. And by the way it's “LOSE to win” not “LOOSE to win”
I think it's clear from the part 1 reply above who needs to wake up.
Carrying on …...
“Listen O Self Proclaimed authority on Sant Mat, you say the present great one has said burn the books and no past one ever said that. You have again failed to understand the essence, or rather you understood very well, but you still have bitterness left within you. Have you ever thought about if he literally meant to burn the books, then why does he keeps on publishing more and more books? Think about it, even if your Ego cries, not to worry! Sar Bachan says “Priests read and recite the scriptures, they too waste their energies in learning and preaching.” What is the point there Masters are trying to make? Knowledge cannot replace experiences. - JEFF
Now you are adding in your own bits. Show me where I said that no past master ever said that. I didn't make that statement.
And I have no bitterness.
Of course he doesn't mean literally burn the books.
What you mean that some of the followers will literally start a fire in haynes park and pile all the RSSB books onto it?

Clearly not.

He is saying, pure and simple, that the RSSB books are wrong where they describe the regions as places where the soul goes to.

He has clearly said that the goal is NIRGUN means there is NOTHING THERE.

It's you Jeff that does not understand and is twisting his meaning.
And you claim to be his disciple?

[Osho Robbins]

Sar Bachan says “Priests read and recite the scriptures, they too waste their energies in learning and preaching.” What is the point these Masters are trying to make? Knowledge cannot replace experiences. - JEFF

Point taken. Preaching to others is pointless – first get your own experience and then teach from that. Otherwise you are a hypocrite. Agreed?

So – lets get this clear – RSSB is saying – “don't preach what you have not experienced.”
Charan Singh was fond of quoting from the gurbani “parh parh pandir aurah samjai – aphi ghar jal ki khabar na pai”
means “reading scriptures the pandit explains to others while his own house is burning and he is unaware”

So it's clear – do not give theoretical talks that are not from your own inner experiences. Agreed?

Okay – so then – why does RSSB allow and encourage those who have NO EXPERIENCE to give out the theoretical teachings like parrots? And they call it SATSANG.

Is that not hypocrisy?

On the one hand they say that theoretical teachings should not be given. The pundit is teachings others while his own house burns.

Yet the weekly satsangs are conducted by people who have no inner experience.

It is not a criteria that the speaker must have practical experience of the path. When they say they want parrots – that is what they mean.
They want someone to go on stage and give out the theory.

And this is not a religion? And this is not hypocrisy?
That person is speaking as if he knows – yet he does not know. That is mis-leading the innocent.

[Rich]

Quote Osho...
It means that NOBODY can go to Sach Khand and there cannot be a Sach Khand because there is only ONE! There cannot be any PLACE or SOUL to visit Sach Khand.
ONENESS means there is nothing. And nothing means Nothing – sweet F.A.
ZERO – Zilch – absence al all things, entities, regions, thoughts, being, etc.
“There is still time left for you to repent and come back to the fold. I feel pity on new comers who fall in trap of people like yourself.”

...this is your total ununderstanding of non duality you have no clue you think you have but not.

[Martin]

Good to see someone take on the poisonous Ex-Satsangi in Osho Robbins, who spreads his venom on this blog from time to time. I agree with most points made against him by various posters. Such Exers who try to deceive satsangies by manipulating Guru's statements and giving out their own versions, to elevate themselves must be taught a lesson. And a request to all readers, believe only your own experiences and don't look up to people like Osho Robbins who are crap as they don't portray true picture.

[Rich]

Quote Osho..
He is saying, pure and simple, that the RSSB books are wrong where they describe the regions as places where the soul goes to.

He has clearly said that the goal is NIRGUN means there is NOTHING THERE

.....you clearly missed with this one too.
Burning book means theory without practice means zero.
Didnt you see any world in your consciousness or your mind Osho? You quote Faqir but Faqir is deeply in describing planes but yeah they are planes of consciousness. And it was not Gurinder who firstly said they are just level of consciousness. Charan said totally the same sentence...look ate those three books of Charan the three questions and answers series.....totaly same sentence. I like your thinking but please listrn it will be for your own good that you still need to proceed and develop clearer vision of this things. Love

[Claudine]

Osho Robbins,

May I ask why are you misleading people? Do you consider yourself some sort of spiritual authority? All that you say means nothing objectively. I am now wondering, do you actually believe what you are saying? Or are you just trying to play the revenge card?

[Jim Sutherland]

To Osho and Oneness Preachers: If I share a Pint of Water with you, H20, and you freeze it, until it turns to Ice, then, boil the ice, until it turns to steam and evaporates, which ONE is it, Water, Ice or Steam? Where did the water originate from, did it choose to freeze or be boiled, and have any say or free will , or did it have a definite space time creation date, created by a Higher Power called God, or any Name assigned to such an Ultimate Creator?

So, is the ONE, water, ice, steam, or,....????

If you have the correct answer to the above, please do the same test with k9p and report if it ends in Oneness, or Duality?

[Osho Robbins]

what is k9p?

[Osho Robbins]

Jeff is strangely silent and offers no response to my comments.

Instead Martin, Claudine and Rich all come to his rescue.

And they have his style of writing.

go figure

[Osho Robbins]

So let me just ask the obvious question.

Any any of his 'apparent defenders' can also respond for him.

Jeff - do you still maintain that Gurinder Singh meant that the physical master does not turn up at the time of death? And that he was simply clarifying this.

Claudine asks why I am mis-leading people. How have I mis-lead anyone?

please explain.

I have simply stated what Gurinder is saying. Is that mis-leading?

Rich - can you point me to where Charan says there are no regions - just levels of consciousness, and that the master will not come at death because there is only the ONE.

[Rich]

Osho i am not Jeff and i already pointed you to the three latest books of Charan Singh ...the question and answers session three volumes. It is somewhere in there....

[Jim Sutherland]

Osho: "what is k9p?"

Jim solves the mystery: Dog Piss. 😂

[Osho Robbins]

Rich,
can you give me a reference? not "It's somewhere in there..."

Jeff, Your other selves have posted comments - coming to your defence by attacking me but giving no reason.

How about you? Do you have any response? Do you still maintain that Gurinder saying "I am not coming a death" means "My physical body is not going to come at your death"

Or do you wish to retract that statement and perhaps propose something more logical?

Or just admit you ain't got no fu**ing clue what you're talking about.

[Rich]

Osho sorry i dont know which of three books but i bought these in Spain Malaga a few years ago and i was searching what Charan says on prana and hatha yog cause i love them and after a few exchanges with questioner he said hatha is great and then i said this to a satsangi and he was totally nervous and said tai chi is better and that chi is positive and prana is not. (is it not the same)Thats why i made research and find out Chsran also did pranayam. So if i'd tell this to that satsangi he would he nervous even more so i was quiet. And at that time cause i know your videos i get to one answer which Charan said...these are levels of consciousness...but if i find again i will somehow report to you.

[Rich]

Not comming at death....how? He's already there...just deciple needs to realise...how?...with the help of awareness....? meditation

[Osho Robbins]

Martin, Rich, Claudine

do any of you still maintain that Gurinder Singh meant that the physical master does not turn up at the time of death? And that he was simply clarifying this.

You all seemed to be very vocal in coming to support Jeff
But nobody, including Jeff, has an answer.

Martin and Claudine are both one-hit wonders. They just made a comment to side with Jeff - and even that did not address any real points - they are clearly just other names of Jeff.

And Jeff is conspicuous by his absence because he is now writing as Rich.

Jeff, Claudine, Rich, Martin - do any of you multiple personalities
have anything of value to contribute and can any of you answer the question I have asked Jeff,

namely that do you still think that Gurinder was just clarifying that the master does not come in his physical body at death?

[manjit]

Hey Osho, how's it going my Brother.....it's Manjit from London UK, we met at Ajit's back some 17 years ago now, and we also went to a Tony Parson's meeting together a few years later! How's it going my friend, it's been a long time?! I often recall here and at the Radhasoamistudies forum that I had my "initial non-dual awakening" in dialogue with your good self Sir......ah, good times, good times :) We should catch up one of these days....

I see you're still at it with Gurinder :o) Your "Sant Mat 2.0" concept/meme has also caught on in the small world of online Radhsoami discussions I feel. I wasn't really that inclined to comment on this blog post & subsequent comments, but it's not often that I find a post on this blog that is far too generous to Gurinder imo, so I thought I'd comment and use this as an opportunity to reconnect with you too!

Firstly, I see you're having fun with the hordes of Radhasoami apologists? :) Well, I say hordes..... We all know those anonymous poster/s, who share absolutely nothing about their background or history, who hiding behind their multiple sock-puppet usernames feel emboldened enough to make unintelligible & incoherent ad-hominem attacks, really have no substance to add to the discussion and are simply making a display of their emotional fragility & profound cognitive dissonance. Imo of course.

I don't think Jeff is Rich/Martin/Claudine/Penny Lee/Spino, though I do think Rich/Martin/Claudine/Penny Lee/Spino is a 5 word mantric appellation which refers to a single being :o)

Re. the "book learned" insinuation from a few here, always very funny and transparently incoherent (how can anyone tell if your perspective is book learned or experiential from your posts here?). I've been accused of similar myself many times, that I am "intellectual", implying lack of experiential understanding. I always take that as a compliment, knowing my own circumstances and experiences :) It seems a lot of RS initiates seem to think the appearance of ignorance & a lack of intelligence are the "true" hallmarks of "true" spiritual progression, as opposed to any meaningful "realisation" leading to a high-level synthesis of right/left brain function & a natural, spontaneous influx of knowledge, information, realisations & wisdom. It's obvious what those who write this really mean; this is an emotional defence of being unable to coherently counter your points. A projection of their own lack of realisation, experience, wisdom & incapability to naturally & spontaneously express it. Rather than facing that reality, they project onto you that you are "book learned" or an intellectual/pandit, deluding themselves that their own vague, hazy, unexamined & incoherent emotional feelings are somehow more truly "spiritual".........

Anyway, enough of that. What really gets me is just how unduly generous you're being to Gugu in all your posts and videos etc. It doesn't really make sense, and it's almost if you're still enamoured somewhat with the billionaire businesman who inherited the family religion-business? :P It's clear you think Gurinder is "realised" or "enlightened" or whatever (that even means!), and that he is merely burdened with the obsolete carcass of medieval RS concepts, which he is ever vigilantly trying to help his flock shed. Now, you may have a point with this (and I've written before about that perspective), but I feel I have to call here:

Complete & utter bullshit!

Osho: "I asked BabaJi a question at the last Sunday gathering. I asked him to explain about SARGUN and NIRGUN. His first response was “Are you trying to test me?” I said “No,”, because I wasn’t – I just wanted him to comment on the subject. The response he gave was pretty impressive but I somehow think hardly anyone in the congregation understood him. What he said was that SARGUN is God with attributes – the path we all follow and NIRGUN is the goal – the God without any attributes – the ONE. Sargun is the MEANS and Nirgun is the END or GOAL."

Me: Pretty impressive? Sorry, not having that my old friend! Absolutely bog-standard, basic Indian metaphysical philosophy. This really isn't an impressive answer at all, it's more a Mirriam's Dictionary answer. God on earth should be doing better.

Osho: "GSD a.k.a. BabaJi has quoted Paltu many times. There is only the ONE there is no other. Paltu iko ik hai dusar nahin koi. Cant be any clearer than that. As far as I am aware GSD is the only living sant mat guru to make this statement."

Me: Come on me old mucker - GSD has quoted Paltu - Paltu, a well known mystic from 300 years ago! - and you finish up the quote with "GSD is the only living sant mat guru to make this statement"? What, parrot/quote Paltu? Dude, RS gurus are parroting previous mystics all the time! Besides, even if GSD understands the quote, how can we tell if it's merely "book-learned" or experiential? Hehehe.....ahh, I hope somebody understands/appreciates the subtlety of that, it being a quote from a book and all......:o)

Osho: "So why are the followers so confused. Its because they cannot let go of the old duality teachings."

Me: Hey? Perhaps Gugu's the one who's confused? Look, the "followers" are confused because the ONLY reason they are attracted to this billionaire businessman who inherited the family run religious business is BECAUSE of the vast conceptual & mythic structure which surrounds him. Do you think anyone would listen to or care about his his vague & ambiguous neo-zenish english satsangs if that structure wasn't there? From the books to the satsangs (btw, as you must know, in Punjabi, Gugu is still selling that old time dualistic schtick), to the very meaning and methodology of the initiation itself.....all old school, all dualistic.

So why wouldn't some followers not understand Gugu's seemingly neo-advaitic, neo-zenish few & infrequent statements in English? (btw, I 100% agree with you that he IS doing that, I've heard it myself & thought the same as you, that hardly anybody here will understand what he's saying as it's so untypically RS, and so typically advaitic). There is a strong possibility that Gurinder is indeed what I've heard him himself say he is in satsang, a good "actor", and that he knows how to play the Q&A game well. With advaitic philosophy being far more sophisticated than RS - without doubt - perhaps Gugu is just trying to have his cake and eat it too? He knows he can get away with it.

Anyway, gotta go, chat soon! Manjit

[manjit]

Talking about "book learned" and the absurd concepts of RS....:)

I'll repeat what I consider to be a fundamentally fatal flaw within the whole RSSB paradigm, if one is objective or brave enough to face it.

There is a well known & "authenticated" (by his secretary and others) story from Sawan Singh's time, about a lady who wanted to get initiated, but who had such terrible karma from a previous life as a wolf (or something similar) who had killed either some wolf or human babies. She had incurred such bad and heavy karma with that act, committed as an animal, that Sawan initially refused to initiate her - Sawan was the one who had discovered this past life transgression through his inner vision. After a while or repeated entreaties, he agreed to initiate. Because of the initiation, Sawan fell ill for several days. If I recall correctly, I think the lady also gave birth to and lost 3 children.This is the general story though I may have inconsequential details wrong as this is a story I read some 25 years ago.

So, we can deduce from this that actions incurred as an animal can incur very heavy karma, so much so the "Great Master" refused to initiate her several times before acceding.

On the other hand, Gurinder has stated many times - many times - in his satsangs, that we cannot create new karma as an animal, we can only work our previously accumulated karma (note these are both views of karma known in Indian metaphysical philosophy, nothing new with either idea).

So, we have Gurinder & Sawan making fundamentally contradictory statements about a fundamentally important question. The whole house of cards has come crashing down, right here with this unarguably true & factual contradiction.

Book learned?

It's obvious what's happening here, the question is who is courageous enough to face it?

[s*]

Yes Rich,
God is always there..we have to realise it.
Meditation practice helps idd.
Guru is pointing to that exactely..

[Jim Sutherland]

Manjit, Sawan never said it was a wolf in his story, but a lady. And animal do not create karma, only humans do. Sawan and Gurinder said the same thing. You should not fabricate as you go along, as Osho does. But you are excused, becsuse you are not an RSSB Initiate, as Osho is.

Osho, Peter preached to the seekers and converts of his time, who had been initiated by the Living Master of the time, Jesus, and some had strayed from the Path, and were doing what you are presently doing. Here is what Peter told them, which you might apply to your self as an example.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2nd Peter 27-22.

Manjit has never been initiated by Charan, so can never see Gurinder and Charan as the same Shabd Master, as you should be able to.

What will you, Manjit, and Hines do, when you find out your fellow Exer David Lane finally comes out of his Bunker admitting that he is now an admirerer of Gurinder Singh? Will you and all of the Exers turn on him, unfriend him from your Face Book friends list, and send ad hominem attacks against him in his RSS group, as you all did to Chris Crooks, Michael Martin, me, and any one else that refused to be one fo the Ankle biters in tne Snake Pit? Or,....will you all support David Lane, and congratulate him for finally seeing the True Light, and all rally around him to make a Joint visit to the Dera? By the way, I plan on being there Oct. 15 in case you all want to hang out with me at Hostel 6. Perhaps David Lane will give us all his personal stories about his many experiences at the Dera as a young Lad to now, an aging boy/man still infatuated with The Dera and RSSB Masters.

[Mike Carris]

Maybe 'not knowing' is the highest truth.

Faqir Chand said that his utterances at any one time may not be final.

We know what we know, there may be more or less.

One day after returning from a sesshin I took my daughter, who was 8 or 9, at the time, to the zoo and after, we had lunch at a favorite pizza place. As we were eating I was enthusiastically telling her about Zen and Buddhist philosophy, when she suddenly said, "Daddy, you are just a steaming bowl of fixed soup".

Sometimes out of the mouths of babes.

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Manjit,
great to hear from you.
drop me a message with your phone no at [email protected]
Will be nice to catch up.

Regarding the point about being generous to Gurinder....

You may be right - however, I give him credit for actually making the statements he makes about oneness.

After all, he is rich now and doesn't need all this. He could just carry on and let them (the sangat) carry on as before.

All I see is a guy having a good time. He's relaxed, and having fun.
He says whatever comes to mind and no matter what he says nobody can possibly question him as it's 'his' sangat and they will always side with him no matter how ridiculous a statement he makes.

I also just have fun there. I really don't care about the outcome.

Most satsangis are against me - but I am not against anyone. Everyone to their own - I am simply pointing out a few obvious things - like that Gurinder is making different statements than Charan and the followers cannot even see that.

I am even saying I am impressed- yet they still consider me the enemy. Hilarious really.

Most people here and followers think I am there to fight with their guru. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Gurinder made it clear that the goal is NIRGUN (no arrtibutes). and sargun is only the pathway - not the goal.

That should be totally shocking to the followers - if only they understood.

Sadly they don't and he might as well not speak because his words fall on deaf ears.

[Rich]

First of all Manjit i have nothing to do with Jeff. I am Rich but you can call me bitch if you want..hehe. And actualy i agree with you that Gurinder teaches nothing new thats why i said i read in Charans book that already Charan said that about planes of consciousness. And please do not put me in the lines of Jeff and your hordes you are mentioning them. I know for myself i dont know much.
But i really dont know why you changed so hard. More rudeness more attack...please think and i hope you will not come upon me with you analyses cause i am realy sick and tired about arguing and attacking and so on..i wanna live in peace.

[Rich]

Osho nobody is against you. Guaranteed.

[manjit]

Jim: "Manjit, Sawan never said it was a wolf in his story, but a lady. And animal do not create karma, only humans do. Sawan and Gurinder said the same thing. You should not fabricate as you go along, as Osho does. But you are excused, becsuse you are not an RSSB Initiate, as Osho is."

Me: That is absurd! The story doesn't even make sense if she incurred the karma as a lady. The story is well known and you are mistaken or lying. But you are excused, because despite being initiated, you really don't know what you're talking about!

As for the rest of your post, I find it odd and deeply disconnected from reality. But each to their own.

Rich: "First of all Manjit i have nothing to do with Jeff."

Me: Er yeah, that's what I wrote!: "I don't think Jeff is Rich"

Rich " i am realy sick and tired about arguing and attacking and so on..i wanna live in peace."

Me: Fair enough! My first bit of advice, then, would be don't enter a discussion (with this particular pseudonym "Rich", at least :) with the line "you have no clue you think you have but not.".

That would be a good start, at least. :)

Osho: "I am simply pointing out a few obvious things - like that Gurinder is making different statements than Charan and the followers cannot even see that.

.......

Gurinder made it clear that the goal is NIRGUN (no arrtibutes). and sargun is only the pathway - not the goal.

That should be totally shocking to the followers - if only they understood."

Me: Hey Bro, thanks for the email, will definitely drop you a message!

Re. the above, errrm, well, I do have to point out that Charan famously once wrote: “May your Love of the Form, culminate in the Love of the Formless”

:)

[Rich]

Quote..you have no clue .......can also be in positive way but limit of writing cuts off that...
As far as online avatars...some have it some dont no big deal.

[Jim Sutherland]

On my blog, is a Charan Singh Article of questions and answers about his view of creation. Actually, he said we are the individual as mind, but One as Soul, in our final merging. I do not deny that I could eventually loose consciousness that I am an individual, because I do it daily, almost every time I meditate and get lost in the Void. But I never stay there. I come out, resurface back to Duality. Here is what Master Charan Singh said about the situation.
"Q. 363. What was in the beginning?
A. First, there was only the Lord, who is without beginning and without end. He has projected Himself everywhere . There was nothing besides Him. He was the only one. All that we see is just His own projection. Everything is projected from Him. If we admit that there was something besides Him, then the Lord is not one. He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection.

Q. 364. Maharaj Ji, does all human life start in lower forms and evolve upwards? I mean, in animal forms, or even lower?
A. He created the whole thing. The creation did not develop slowly from one thing. He simply projected Himself, through His Word, the Shabd, and the whole world and everything in it was created at once.

Q. 365. Man is a created man?
A. Some of the human beings were created as human beings; and some have transmigrated into the lower species also.

Q. To animals, and man evolved to higher forms?
A. To animals and lower. And from the lower species he has come up.

Q. 366. And do animals take on higher forms?
A. Oh, yes. Every soul is given a chance to come up to the status of a human being.
Q. Insects, too?
A. Yes, insects too. They will get a chance to become human beings at least once, whether they make use of that opportunity or not.
Q. 367. When we look upon an ant, a little object crawling, could we assume that soul was once a human form?
A. Yes.
Q. 368. Everything, except the form which is God, is actually unreal, because only that which is eternal is real, is that right?
A. That is right. How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?
Q. 369. And everything that we see out here is like a sunbeam, and at the most distant end of that sunbeam it looks out, and every­thing that we see, that is the way we become mesmerized in this
world? And only by looking back through the sunbeam you see reality, is that true?
A. That is right. All that we see with the physical eyes is made up of one or more of the five elements, namely, earth, water, fire, air and ether. And all these five elements are inimical to each other. But with the help of, or due to that ray of Shabd, the soul, which is also a ray of the Supreme Father, all of the five elements are contained and active in a human body, each one manifesting them according to his own karmas-in that proportion. But all the five elements are active, in a greater or lesser degree, in every human body. We are moving about, but the day that the Lord takes the soul away from the body, all these
salvation from the physical body when these five: elements merge back into their own origin. That is the physical death. And salvation from birth and death is attained when the soul reaches Trikuti, Brahm, and the mind merges back into the universal mind. Salvation for a soul is when it merges back into the Supreme Father, its own origin.
For the purpose of functioning in this world,
the soul has taken the association of the mind and senses; but, unfortunately the soul has not remained in control of the mind and senses. Mind is fond of pleasures, and so it has become a slave of the senses, dragging the soul down along with it to the extent that now the soul has become a slave of the senses also, through the agency of the mind. As a result, the mind as well as the soul has forgotten its origin and purpose.
We get a body according to our actions and reactions, whether it is in the human form or any­where else. But we can find the Path out of this mess, or out of this jail, only in the human form, and this grace is bestowed upon us by Him, just for this very purpose. So, while being in this body, we should always keep our destination in view and try to tread on that Path which leads to our destination. We should never forget it. We should perform our worldly duties and other responsibilities which we have to discharge, while being in this world, according o : our karma, so to say. But we should always keep our destination in view and try to tread on that Path which leads to our Home. The Path leading to our destination should always be our main road. We should not deviate to the left or the right, but keep our Goal always in mind while traveling straight on that Path.
CREATION-THE WHY OF CREATION
Q. 370. We know that God is Love; surely God does not create all this killing, suffering in the world; surely man did that by his own sin?
A. Well, sister, from where has the sin come?
Q. It is man's wrong doing, breaking the laws of God?
A. How does man happen to do wrong things when God has created all love?
Q. That is what I often wonder?
A. Everything has come from the Lord. All that you see is His creation. Even the mind has come from Him; the Negative Power has come from Him. He has put the whole creation under the charge of Kal, the Negative Power. And Kal takes care of the whole creation, so he has made his own rules to keep souls here. We have to abide by those rules while simul­taneously disentangling ourselves on our way back to the Lord. There is nothing which has not come from the Lord, and when God is all Love, from where has the evil come? Negation of Love becomes evil. When the sun is there, the shade is there. The sun has only light, but the sun also creates the shade.
Q. 371. I wonder if this world was not in the beginning a Garden of Eden and we people were just like children playing with our toys and having a happy time until we got jealous of each other, want­ing each other's toys, and so forth?
A. Maybe, but whatever seed of jealousy came in us, it also has come from the Lord. Nothing has come from outside.
Q. That is what seems so confusing, because it all seems so wrong?
We often feel that when God is all Love, from where did evil come? That is what we mean. The
five elements begin to decompose. The earth goes back to the earth, the water goes back to the water, and each element merges back into its own origin. So it is a 350
sun is always in the sky and it is always shining; then from where does the darkness come? It is only when that side of the earth that is facing the sun that there is sunshine; and even then, sometimes the clouds interfere, but we have daylight just the same. When there is negation of light, there is darkness, and the darkness is in proportion to the negation, the obstacle which prevents the light from shining through. Similarly, when we have no love for the Lord, when our face is turned away from Him, there is evil.

Q. 372. Master, in the four cycles of time, like the golden age, the silver age, the copper age and the iron age, did the souls in the golden age have physical bodies at that time? Was it on earth?
A. Sister, this is just our classification. You can classify this into four ages, or you can classify it into twenty ages. This is, after all, just our own classi­fication. Body is there in every age.

Q. 373. Will you please tell us what is meant by dissolution, and the grand or major dissolution?
A. I think that all this is mentioned in our books. By dissolution is meant the end of the physical universe. Grand dissolution is the absorption of everything, even beyond the astral plane, back into its origin. The final dissolution, when He is finished with this `play', when and if the whole creation ceases, will be when every­thing is merged back into Him, the source of every­thing. Saints have tried to explain this to us through the medium of language, but the intellect cannot comprehend all this, so we should not get confused. The saints do not want us to get entangled by thinking about these things. We should concern ourselves only about this physical universe and make use of the
CREATION-THE WHY OF CREATION means which the Lord has provided for our escape from it and our ultimate return to Him.
Q. 374. After merging back into the Lord, does man maintain a separate consciousness?
A. In merging, it is still separate. Being in it, you are separate from it. But you are not conscious of your consciousness. There you just merge yourself. Even in worldly love, when you are with your beloved, you forget yourself completely and want to please only the beloved. You are so absorbed in the beloved that you do not even think about where you are or what you are, even in these physical or worldly emotions. The spiritual is much more fascinating, absorbing; it is much sublimer and nobler. The bliss of merging into the Supreme Being cannot be expressed in mortal language. There is no thought of indivi­duality, consciousness, or anything else. It is all Love, all Bliss, for, in merging, we become the Supreme Being and He is All, He is everything
Q. 375. Then there is just one consciousness?
A. The Lord is one. When we merge back into Him we become the Lord. We become a part of Him. A drop has its own identity when it is in the mud. When it leaves the ground by means of evaporation, it still has its own identity, separate from the ground and separate from the cloud. But when it merges back into the cloud, it becomes the cloud. That minute part of the cloud becomes the cloud by merging into it. When we love the Lord, we do not like to remain away from the Beloved. We lose our identity by merging back into That, and yet we remain separate from That. For instance, if you merge the flame of a lighted candle into the flame of a fire, can you differentiate whether it is the flame of the fire or the flame of the candle? When you take the candle away from the fire, you have an independent, individual flame. But when you take it back into the fire, it merges into the fire and is no longer a mere candle light. Similarly, the soul merges into the Lord.
Q. 376. Actually, it is the mind and not the soul that does not want to give up its identity'?
A. That is right. Mind is the stumbling block. This ego does not like to lose its identity. We always want to observe that I am so-and-so, I am so-and-so, and it is the `I'-ness that we do not want to lose. We perhaps think that we have developed it in this modern world, and that it is something quite unique; but the fact remains that the ego is a great stumbling block in our way. This is what we have to lose.
Q. 377. Can the conscious personality be projected to God-Realiza­tion, leaving the body at will and returning after gaining this desired goal of God-Realization, and know of it?
A. That is what the spiritual practice is for. We are trying to withdraw ourselves at will, to be there, and to come back at our will, and be here. That is the whole object of meditation.
Q. 378. 1 have heard that some schools say there are seven bodies, and some schools say there are three bodies-physical, astral and causal. Can you comment on that, please?
A. Brother, I only know that according to Sant Mat literature there are three. I have not heard or read about the seven.
Q. 379. What is the final goal? Is it where God and I are one? What does this mean, exactly? Is there a sense of individuality?
A. The idea is, "I and God are one", "I and the Father are one". The soul is the essence of the Lord. It has come from the Lord and it will merge back into the Lord and again become one. (Maharaj Ji explained at length about the drop of water merging back into the ocean, the drop of water in the mud merging back into the cloud, and so forth, as has already been explained elsewhere, so is not repeated here). All of us and the Father are one. There was nothing besides the Father when He created the universe. Everything was one and that One was, is and always will be the Father, the Supreme Being. The creation is His projection, and when He again with­draws everything into Himself, it again becomes one.

Q. 380. Ultimately there will be no difference between the drop and God?
A. Ultimately there will be no difference. As yet there is a great difference between the drop and the ocean. But when the drop merges into the ocean there is absolutely no difference.

[E]

"The first and foremost region, which is the highest and largest, which cannot even be called a stage or a region, is that of Radha Swami, Anami (Nameless), or Akeh (Indescribable). This is the beginning and end of everything and circumscribes all."
-Sar Bachan 11.Param Sant Huzur Swami Ji Maharaj

"You should never think of anything as your own because everything belongs to Akal Purush Anami Radha Swami.The body, life, sons, daughters, wife,parents, wealth, house, property, all belong to Him.All this should be given back to Him. Do not keep your 'self in anything. [...] Render everything to Him. Then you attend to your worldly work, also to Bhajan and Simran,but always feel in your mind that I am not doing anything. 'I' simply am not. Read the Huzuri Pothi Sar Bachan) every day.It is very explanatory and enlightening. When the surat or jivatma becomes purified and becomes one with the Shabd, you will know everything." Letter No 5.

"So long as the physical form of the Sat Guru is not considered as absolutely pure and formless (Nirakar), as the Shabd Dhun, till then the Shabd Dhun does not accept the individual." Letter No. 37
Param Sant Jaimal Singh. Spiritual Letters.

"The attribute does not exist without the substance. The substance lies behind the attribute. The Sound Current is the substance and love is its attribute."Param Sant, Baba Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj. Spiritual Gems Letter 189

and from Manjit above,

“May your Love of the Form, culminate in the Love of the Formless”
by Maharaj Charan Singh

[Osho Robbins]

Jim Sutherland,
thank you for the Charan Singh quotes.

I am just taking one specific part here.

He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection. – Maharaj Charan Singh

What does always “IS”, “WAS” and “WILL BE” mean?
“WAS” means the past – so we were never separate.
“IS” means the PRESENT – i.e. NOW (we are not separate right now)

So if it is the case NOW – then how can it be that we MERGE “one day”? (In the future)
That would make a mockery of saying NOW! (or “IS”)

Otherwise the statement should say “we are separate NOW and one day (in the future) we will merge once we meditate. Until then we will remain separate.

So there can be no question of merging if it is the case NOW!
It can only mean that we a deluded into thinking we are separate. And it is just the delusion we have to drop – not actually merge!

This is just simple logic.

If something is the case NOW – then it means there is no need to make it a goal for the future as something to attain.
It is ALREADY (RIGHT NOW) the case!

Why do you have to “work towards” something that is already the case?

If you are already sitting at home, why do you have to GO somewhere to reach your home? And if you to go – it just means you are not aware that you was already at home.

You have not got to go anywhere or do anything.
It is just a matter of realising the obvious – not doing or attaining anything.
It cannot be an attainment because all attainments are in the future (“one day”).

[Pema Tej]

Hi Osho,

You haven't replied to my previous comment on this thread, just wondering if you missed it...
thanx:-)

[Osho Robbins]

Q. 368. Everything, except the form which is God, is actually unreal, because only that which is eternal is real, is that right?
A. That is right. How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow? (Maharaj Charan Singh)
What does this last statement mean?
REAL means – permanent and unchanging.
Everything here is changing – so it is not REAL.
Change happens with TIME. Time is required.
Only that which is OUTSIDE of time is real.
So the REALITY is that there is only ONE.
Evertyhing that YOU experience (visions, regions, radiant forms etc) is UNREAL.
Why?
Because it is within TIME, and we have already stated that EVERYTHING within time is unreal.
So the YOU who wants to merge is UNREAL.
The REAL is already ONE, and has nothing to do with YOU and your desire to merge.
YOU are part of maya (illusion) because you are within time.
Anything you attain (visions, regions, sach khand etc) is all unreal because you are unreal.
Why? Because it is all within time. This is why it is a matter of REALIZING and not attaining.
Enlightenment is not an experience – not something you achieve, attain or arrive at.
Why? Because all those happen within time.

[Sukhbir]

Manjit,

You are mistaken, Sawan Singh never stated animals create karmas. Your other mistake is that you are mixing two stories, one, wherein the nurse had killed babies during early part of her life and Sawan Singh was refusing to initiate her because of that, but on insistence he later initiated the lady, second story is of Baba Jaimal Singh who had to initiate a man with heavy load of karmas on persuasion of the villagers , subsequently he fell ill. You are mixing these two stories.

So, you should either apologize to the readers here for misleading them or produce the facts and exact references before the readers.

[al]

Surrender to an "other" is very difficult. In my humble experience, total surrender is impossible without help. So the question naturally arises, "Why surrender"? Why embark on a mission of supplanting and replacement of one's ego with an "other"? I certainly have recognized the difficulty in surrender to a Sat Guru, both external and internal forms. It is easy - as easy as taking a breath - to surrender to the immediate desire of the moment, easy to surrender to an order from one's employer, easy to surrender to the request of one's child or lover - but it is extraordinarily difficult to surrender to the Guru. Surrender, my dear friends, is what the spiritual path is about. Why? Inherently we know...absolutely know...that something is not right, that there exists still a profound emptiness and dissatisfaction, festering deep within. We can all play the charade of temporal existence, some more adeptly than others, but death awaits us all. Pleasures and comforts obfuscate the immensity of this inevitability. I cannot allow myself to simply ignore that this existence is as long as snap of the fingers...and what is to come will be a direct outcome of my choices in this moment. My disciplines in this life do count. Many blessings to all souls who are, without question, seeking answers and true security for eternity.

[Andrew]

My Dear Manit,

Your narrative is absolutely absurd. Your high pitched jingoistic criticism makes absolutely no sense. Your sentiments have been fueled by the rejection you received from the RSSB 😉 You are stoked in deep mud my friend, filled up with shrill and hateful comments.

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Pema
I missed your message.
I am replying now.

Did you meet and spend time with The Osho? – Pema Tej

No – but I was with one of his realized disciples who went on to be a master in how own right. It was a profound experience that transformed me.

Pema Tej:
I almost know for a fact that if such a Master such as Bhagwan Rajneesh was around today, I would have problems appreciating him/her style and methods, it is easy to enjoy him as I do now... from a convenient distance..

You are right – being with a real master is nothing like reading or listening to his discourses. There are no teachings – nothing to learn – just a lot to unlearn. The very company of such a master is everything =- not the words.
And it’s not going to be comfortable being with a master because he is out to destroy all your beliefs and ultimately you. And you want to protect both. Hence great trust and love is required to stay in his company. The master is not interested in feeding your ego – so confrontation is inevitable.
Pema Tej:
I have not seen or been with The Osho, but have enjoyed visits to the now' Osho International Meditation Resort in Pune, and loved the vibes there...
Also, got a new name ---Tejo, which I adopted from Sanyas celebration during one of my visits to the resort...

A new name only has any significance if given by your master. Osho cannot help anyone now – and the teachings and the communes have pretty much zero value because without a master there is no path.
You need personal interaction with a realized master. He is not giving out any teachings – there is nothing to teach.

[Osho Robbins]

Surrender to an "other" is very difficult. In my humble experience, total surrender is impossible without help.
I cannot allow myself to simply ignore that this existence is as long as snap of the fingers...and what is to come will be a direct outcome of my choices in this moment.
- al
You seek answers – they will come from within you – all external answers will fail to satisfy you.
Email me on [email protected] if you want to discuss this in detail.
Surrender means to let go of your mind and your beliefs and to be open to the truth which the conditioned mind cannot grasp.
The conditioned mind seeks answers from outside – but the real answer comes from your own realization – but only when you are able to quieten your own mind to be able to truly listen.
Normally we cannot hear what is being said because we are too busy listening to our own mind and objection.

[Terry]

Yeah Andrew he thinks we are a horde.

[manjit]

To Sukhbir: Hey? Where did Jim summon you from!? :) Intriguing proposition, it is possible you may be onto something. As I've thrown all my RSSB books about the personal lives of the RSSB gurus away some 10+ years ago, I would be unable to find the story. Also, I would be unwilling to subject myself to having to read that stuff again even if I had the books! Regardless, the memory of the story is quite strong, and I would be deeply fascinated to see if I have indeed fabricated this memory (I mean, where the hell did the wolves come from?!). Also, I have discussed this on another forum with another defender of the RSSB faith,who is extremely knowledgeable with the RS texts (MBW/Chris), and I do not recall him ever questioning the Sawan anecdote, which tends to suggest he also heard/read the story.

It is simple - I would indeed profusely apologise if you could post up, from an RSSB book, the story you mention here "wherein the nurse had killed babies during early part of her life and Sawan Singh was refusing to initiate her because of that, but on insistence he later initiated the lady,". Please post in full, and if wolves or other animals are not mentioned, I would indeed apologise for the error, as I would accept it is quite likely I've mixed up memories of stories (as opposed to the other possibility, that I read another iteration of the story, as when Kirpal is replaced by Jagat in another story mentioned here....).

Thanks, I genuinely look forward to reading the quote, and recognising my error! :)

To Andrew - Hey? Is there anything in your mindless post that I hadn't already covered in the post you're responding to? Another anon pseudonymous poster with absolutely zero substance to their comment making non sequitur insults which reveal nothing other than your own emotional fragility and hurt?

My sentiments have been fuelled by the "rejection" I received from RSSB - smiley face? Are you a satire of an RSSB initiate created by an exer? This comment is similar to Jim's "rejects" of RSSB comment a few days ago. Jeez, you can smell the elitism and hyper-inflated egos from here, oh Dear Chosen Ones! And, honestly, how out of touch with reality are you? Any clown can get initiated by RSSB - there is bountiful evidence of this in the comments section on this blog :)

Btw, when was I "rejected"? I sent a letter to Gurinder aged around 17, within which I asked if it was possible to get initiated early, amongst a whole host of other things. He advised, in his template letter, to follow the teaching and get initiated at 25. Subsequent to writing that letter and receiving the response, I went through my most intense phase of devotion to Gugu (and numerous "Inner experiences" related to RS gurus), for several years, until aged around 22. I eventually left for reasons evidentially far, far beyond your understanding & experience. I never applied for initiation from RSSB when I had achieved all their dogmatic criteria, for the same reason I haven't been "baptised" - I have no interest whatsoever in doing so, and find the whole thing ultimately absurd. Initiation and £1.50 will get you a pack of biscuits, and that's about all! Nice attempt at pop-am-psych analysis though! Perhaps greater clarity, hence accuracy, can occur when you are not so attached to & defined by delusional dogma?

The experience of those initiated? - you have Jim his decades of meditation and his dream of Charan, and somebody mentioning 777s experiences with past lives and radiant forms as examples of "advanced inner experiences"? Carry on, Oh Wise Chosen Ones, Carry On!! :)

PS Andrew, that "high pitched" "hate"? That's just the cognitive dissonance reverberating in your head projected upon me. You literally couldn't comprehend the indifference I have to the subject of RSSB, and the nature and spirit of open, plain talk, done playfully, and simultaneously being unable to be offended. Your ego is simply to fragile to understand, and your posts demonstrate that, imo. Cheers though!

To Terry "Yeah Andrew he thinks we are a horde." Hehehe. I don't know where you're being satirical or sincere here, but that was one funny line, cheers! :)

[Jen]

I like this discussion about surrender. Not surrendering to another but this feeling of just giving up. Letting go of all my thoughts and speculations, my wanting to find reasons and meaning. Just relaxing into the feeling of emptiness which I remind myself often during the day. Making my everyday life more of a meditation, not sitting and forcing myself to be still in the Sant Mat tradition, just being.

I wonder if this feeling of emptiness / connectedness is a glimpse of the oneness that Gurinder is talking about. He does seem to be keeping up with the times with the non-duality type thinking.

[Jim Sutherland]

Osho, I asked a friend of mine, who is a devoted Hari Kristna Devotee , if he was an Avaita Oneness believer. I really respect and liked his honest answer, free of B.S. So, zimwill share it here. I can't find any thing hete to disagree with or that upsets me. I have no Rebuttal. Check Mated.
"Jim, in my perspective, yes, ultimately all Life is One & each of us is a Spark of the Divine, an individualized aspect of the One Universal Spirit (or Atman). However, prevailing reality within this Earth dimension is what the Gnostics called the University of Duality. Our individuated souls (jivatman) evolve through the ongoing lessons of strife, struggle, karma, re-birth, Nature & duality. Knowing we are all God, that we are All One & everything 'external' is an illusion is not particularly helpful on this challenging journey through the University of Duality. I'd prefer to have wisdom, health, common sense & the practical skills to lead an effective spiritual practice & a joyful, peaceful creative sustainable community life that's truly worth living. :) As for the above mentioned teachers & what they have to say about Oneness: That's their business. Not mine. "

As for your Osho experiences, no doubt, that Jain Monk was a brilliant Philosopher, but he was also a devious scoundrel , involved 1000 fold in more sexual scandels among his female Devotees than Thakar Singh ever was. His U.S. Ashram in Oregon was an on going Orgy, out of control. Osho got his Highs by ingesting Nitrous Oxide. Hope you have not followed his example? I have read a ton of his books, and no doubt, his thoughts were short of Genius. One of my friends that knew him and visited his Oregon Ashram, told me that Osho read two different books at the same time, one with each eye, and had photographic memory while scanning them. But, his Ashram in Oregon appeared like a Lunatic Asylum, to " Normal" Sant Maters like me. Waking Now's Documentary posted as the 4 part " Confession" here in Brian's Church, trying to criticize Charan Singh, Gurinder Singh and RSSB is like a Disneyland Story as compared to Documentaries and books written by Osho defectors, including his closer, inner females he impregnated.

[Jim Sutherland]

Osho Robbins, this is how Osho's Devotees " Celebrated" Osho in his Oregon Ashram.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gzSsqMgCk

[Eric]

Quote manjit...Any clown can get initiated by RSSB

Quote manjit...far, far beyond your understanding & experience
...
....uhuhuu who is the elitist

Quote manjit...You literally couldn't comprehend the indifference I have to the subject of RSSB....

Uau manjit just uau your posts are just constan comercial for you you and you. You are the best. How come you never doubt your analyzes about people here and on rss. If you only know how many times you miss about psyche of other people. And how much you insult rssb now you dont even listen anyone anymore. By almost everybody you find mistakes and you insult and constantly correct other always your last word.
You became the new tAo.

....and yes i am bellow your experiences and my mind is and will never understand your supremacy but my mind knows one think for sure...you ve changed alot.

[Ply]

There is Osho Robbins at 2:28 min.

[Sukhbir]

Manjit,

Below are the 2 stories which you were mixing:

An Allegory of Great Master & a Lady - This is from Krishin Babani's hindi satsang which I translated in English for English speaking audience.

It’s an incident of Great Master’s time. Great Master was shortlisting candidates for initiation. Shortlisted candidates were being sent to a separate room and the rejected candidates were being sent outside. After shortlisting candidates Great Master came to the room, paused, and said, here someone whom I have not selected has come by himself. I don’t want to call out their name, I am going outside, and meanwhile he should exit himself. Great Master went outside and returned after a few minutes. That person had not exited, so Great Master again said, he is still here, I am again going outside, he should exit. Great Master returned after a few minutes again, but the person still didn’t leave. Great Master closed the door and pointed towards a lady asking her to get up. She stood up with folded hands. Great Master said, Bibi I gave you two chances but you didn’t leave. Your karmic load is very heavy, you killed three of your new born daughters? She said, I have killed only two. Great Master said, and one you asked the delivery nurse to kill. She said, Yes Hazur! But please tell me, other than your court, if there any other court in this world where sinners like me can be forgiven, so I can go there? At this she started crying. Great Master then said, Okay Bibi! You are forgiven. Take your seat. And she was initiated.

The other story is “The Initiation of Hukam Singh”. You can find this story in the book Tales of Mystic East and other books. This story is from Baba Jaimal Singh’s time. Upon initiating Hukam Singh, Baba Jaimal Singh fell ill for several days and He later revealed it was due to very heavy karmas of Hukam Singh.

The stage is set for you Manjit ! Readers are waiting for an apology from you!

Thanks

[Jeff]

Osho,

You say that past masters have also differentiated between inner and outer form of the master, just like the present Great One! Then what’s the matter O confused nut? When the present Great One is saying the same thing, just like the previous masters, that, physical form of the master is limited to the physical, cremation ground is the farthest it can go, beyond that it cannot, while the Shabd Form is what stays with the disciple after death. Disciple is also not the physical body but the consciousness. Hard to understand, Eh? Shabd Form of the Master appears at the time of death and remains with the disciple, is the teaching of all Masters in question, past and present. Sadly, you have failed to understand the teachings, probably because you sit in satsang with your own perceived notions which you are unwilling to do away with, before asking a question you form an answer in your mind, so you are unable to grasp what the master is conveying, or like I said before, you have malicious motives, of trying to let down the master in order to elevate yourself within your own Ego zone.

You also say that present Great One has himself clarified that they are levels of consciousness not regions? Wow! O Great Nut! You really are making yourself look like a fool. Watch out guys, this confused nut says that past masters used the term “regions” and the present master uses the term “levels”, and this according to this nut is change in teachings. This is like use of terms “water” or “aqua” for the same component. By using different terms the properties of the component do not change. Similarly, some masters have categorized the experiences which come along the way into regions, while others have categorized the experiences as various levels. This when past masters ( Sawan Singh whom he seems to be referring to) never spoke English, his teachings have only been translated to English and translations can never be 100% accurate. Osho, you have caught one such translated term “region.” This is the foundation of Osho’s Sant Mat 2.0 invention. All readers should take notice, Osho deserves an applause for this.

Moving on, to expose Osho on another point. As for burning the books statement, Osho now says that, “Show me where I said that no past master ever said that. I didn't make that statement. ” So he is now denying he ever said that. So, let’s remind him what he said. This is what you said Osho – “No other master has said “burn the books.” Gurinder has.” For other readers, just check for his comments in this thread above where he said so. Grow up Osho, when someone gives a counter argument which rattles your original statement, you deny even having made the statement.

Open up your mind to understand the teachings and leave the bitterness. It is for your own good.

[manjit]

Eric - stop being a coward and hiding behind pseudonyms! Though the deeply delusional & mistaken contents of your comments are appropriate for such a troll. Carry on, I suppose!

Sukhbir - hey? I specifically asked for a quote from the (at least 2?) times this story is written in the official RSSB books - you have provided your personal translation of a Babani satsang, as if that proves or means anything whatsoever? I will not ask for an apology from you, just a simple check of the books and posting the ACTUAL quote would absolve you of all sins! :)

Jeff - yeah, sure, only bitterness can explain anybody criticising or, as in this case, questioning RS teachings or history - what else could explain it, right?

Well, except perhaps the deeply delusional and disconnected from reality mindset of somebody suckered into the overtly nonsensical and absurd world-view of RSSB, who thinks all critics are hateful, bitter and rejects.

A rather wonderful display of the delusions of religious belief.

[Eric]

Manjit you really know how to insult and attack..sorry i am not dellusional. Bye

[manjit]

Eric: "Manjit you really know how to insult and attack"

Perhaps we just have different ways of communicating? Some people adopt a threefold communication strategem:

1) Hide (use a variety of pseudonyms virtually simultaneously, say like, errrm, Eric, Rich, Penny Lee etc etc etc)

2) Attack ("you do not know what you're talking about" or "your posts are just a constant commercial for you" etc etc)

Most importantly, remember to not embed these inane, one line "contributions" to the discussion within any kind of meaningful or interesting substance or information. Just the attacks, maam!

3) Play the victim ("I am really sick of arguing and fighting" or "you really know how to attack and insult" for eg.)

Now, this may work for some. But it's all a little too convoluted and boring for others. Some people can just be straightforward, honest, integral and blunt when discussing controversial topics (ie. topics which seriously threaten certain peoples ego's sense of identity) and take it all rather impersonally. Those tend to be the people least identified with the comforting narratives which sooth the ego, dear Chosen One of the Great One, and more interested in the nature of truth and reality itself. So you and several other commentators on this thread are excused :)

Cheers

[Eric]

Ok manjit i will take that to consideration

[Eric]

I will consider manjit but i am definitely not deluded

[manjit]

Okay, fair enough, errrm, Eric!

Monitoring this thread in order to respond to comments, make apologies etc has become tiresome. I'll perhaps pop by in a long while to see what's trending round these remote parts ;)

[Osho Robbins]

Jeff,
First of all, what’s with your language? Is that what RSSB teaches you? To use the type of language that you use?
Can’t you write without that type of language? O confused nut?
But since you have resorted to that type of language – I will respond in the same way.

JEFF WROTE:
“You say that past masters have also differentiated between inner and outer form of the master, just like the present Great One! Then what’s the matter O confused nut? When the present Great One is saying the same thing, just like the previous masters, that, physical form of the master is limited to the physical,” – Jeff
Let’s get this straight. YOU (Jeff) previously wrote:-
“The previous masters have said the radiant form of the master comes at the time of death. The present Great One has differentiated between the outer form and the inner form. The outer physical form has limitations. No past master ever said physical form of the master will come at the time of death. The present Great One clarified so no misunderstandings remain and initiates attach themselves with the Shabd Form, not the physical. You have failed to understand both past and present teachings, as you say they are different. “ - Jeff

So you said that “The Great One” clarified that the radiant form comes at death, not the physical.
So I responded and said, “Clarified what? That the physical master is not coming at death? You think that needs clarifying? You really think the present sangat is that stupid that they are waiting for a knock on the door?”

Jeff, are you STILL seriously saying that Gurinder meant that he is not coming physically? (if you are, I suggest you visit a psychiatrist)

Everyone KNOWS he is not coming physically (except apparently Jeff)
So that does NOT need clarifying – so I would say He was NOT clarifying that.
What is obvious to everyone does not need clarifying.
So let me spell it out because obviously you’re a bit retarded, Jeff.

Gurinder was NOT, repeat NOT clarifying that he is not going to come physically.
How do I know that?

Here’s how: because unlike Jeff, Gurinder is not a retard. He knows that everyone knows he is not coming PHYSICALLY. Only an idiot would think that the guru is going to come physically.

So – now pay attention Jeff – this is important for retards.
The obvious never needs to be clarified.

So – that is NOT what Gurinder meant when he said he is not coming at the time of death. He meant in his radiant form.

Now –let’s go further. If you actually read further – I even explained what he meant. But because you can’t read – I will cut and paste it here so you can read it this time:

“He has HIMSELF explained what he means so people cannot misunderstand him. He says, “please try to understand what I am saying. If there is ONLY THE ONE, how can “I” come to get “YOU”? And WHERE will I take you?”

He is clearly talking about the ONENESS.
Did you not read this above? Or did you choose to ignore it?

[Jim Sutherland]

Isn't it standard Sant Mat Phiosophy that the Physical Master projects his Radiant ( Astral Form) in the Third Eye of those He initiates? Jesus told his initiated Desciples he would never leave them, nor forsake them, even until the end of the world. It becomes obvious that the Astral Form of the Master splits, from the One, and becomes the Many, and takes residence in each of the millions of initiated Desciples, so doesn't need to travel from any where to meet the Desciple at death of the physicsl body. The Astral Form of the Master is already there, because he has never left, since the day of Initiation to the end, or the death of the physical body. So, the One became Many, and will remain Many,....until the end of the world, i.e. Complete disillusion. I have heard reports from friends, more than one, who have seen the face of Master Charan Singh inside multiple spheres of Light , inside, manifesting his multiple images of his Radiant Form, to the Meditator. This further example is the testimony of multiple desciples of Faquir Chand ALL seeing his Astral Form appearing to them simultaneously, on tne Battle field, warning them. The Astral body is unlimited, from the number of images it projects, and it also serms obvious, that the Physicsl body where the Astral hody is projected from, is not aware of these projections. That's why Faqir Chand claimed "He" never went any where. But his Astral body, did go to many of his Desciples, as the Astral body of Charan Singh came to me,......FROM my THIRD EYE, where his projected Radiant Form has taken refuge, every since he initiated me Feb. 4, 1990. He has always been there, is still there, will never leave me, will manifest at the death of my body, the same as he will for every Desciple he has initiated. The same holds true for Gurinder Singh, and the Desciples he has initiated. In fact, as Charan Singh said , all Masters are the same, the Shabd, many Charan Initiates SEE Gurinder Singh morph in to Charan Singh, at Satsangs, and other places. Skeptics like Manjit who have never been initiated by a Sant Mat Master do NOT have the Astral Form implanted at their Third Eye, nor are hooked to the Chain that binds Disciples to their Masters, so all they can do is keep,........complaining and debating about they will never experience with out being accepted by a Complete Master and initiated by him. Marked souls are found by Complete Masters that The Father draws them to, and they ask for initiation, are accepted, then initiated, then the Master's Astral Form is projected in to the Initiate's Third Eye, and is always there to guide, and will never forsake, until the end of the world. THAT is Sant Mat 101 Boys & Girls! Not complicated at all. Deal with it Skeptics, or offer Marked souls a purer Path.

[Jeff]

Osho,

You are completely rattled. You and your Sant Mat 2.0 exploits have been exposed right here on this Church and the readers here have taken note of it. So you are now short of words, you have no substantial arguments left and have given up. Which is good!

Jim Sutherland,

All good points. You seem to have understood the teachings well, unlike Osho whose theory stands exposed. Even I know of people who have seen radiant form of the masters within and have had great experiences. But people like Osho try to let these masters down by giving out their own understanding of the teachings and claim there are teachings of the masters. These people still have long way to go on the path, but I still do have hope as the saying goes there are no failures on Sant Mat.

[Sukhbir]

Manjit,

That story was never published in any RSSB book, for me to be able to quote from a book. Don't try to act smart now. I produced the stories before you. And as promised you should now apologize and take your words back. Don't let your personal brand down :)

[Osho robbins]

Jeff
You are unable to answer one simple question.
Instead you write more nonsense.
Let me repeat the question.

Do you still maintain that Gurinder singh was just clarifying that he is not coming physically?

[Osho robbins]

Jim
There are plenty of Reports of people seeing kirpal darshan thakar and Others.

So that means they were all perfect Masters?

Yet by sant mat Standards thakar at least cannot be a perfect Master by his own admission.

Thats why Wolfeing left.

Yet still people followed him and he has a successor
Because people believe what they want to believe regardless of evidence

[Sandeep]

i Believe Its not Absolutely required to "see" the radiant form in sant mat. One has to establish the presence of Guru inside. Even in sant mat its said that there are stages where one has to merge in radiant form to proceed further.So its clear that Duality of radiant form is illusion as long as we are trying to access it from this Material world. One can have normal conversation with Master without ever establishing his radiant form.it makes possible to have presence of master 24/7 alongside you and not to digress from path.