Great video about why faith is an unreliable guide to truth

A Church of the Churchless reader just sent me this thought-provoking exchange between two hosts of The Atheist Experience Internet television show and a Christian caller.

It's well worth watching. The first six minutes of the 12-minute video pretty much sums up the devastating arguments the hosts make about faith being an unreliable guide to truth.

Basically, the Christian believer considers that his commitment to God is justifiably based on faith. But the hosts point out that there are thousands of Gods, each of which can be believed in on faith.

So the chance of choosing the correct God (assuming any are real) is 1:1000. Not good odds. 

Comments

[Richard van Pelt]

"Hurd explores the ramifications of secularism and religious freedom on the global stage in her provocatively titled Beyond Religious Freedom. Political secularism and the attendant logic of religious freedom, she shows, have long been central to the governing methods of the United States, the United Nations, and many individual states too. In her view, the category of religion is a clumsy one, and the religious-secular binary obscures more than it illuminates. It is impossible, she thinks, to disentangle elements of a society that are religious from those that are not. “To rely for policy purposes on the category of religious actor,” she argues, is to “presume a certain form of actorship motivated by religion that is neither intellectually coherent nor sociologically defensible.”

From a review of several books that might interest you:

http://bostonreview.net/books-ideas/james-chappel-secularism-religion?utm_source=New+Daily+Newsletter+Subscribers&utm_campaign=8fadd370f6-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_12_23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4675a5c15f-8fadd370f6-81843045

The Boston Review April 25, 2016, "Holy Wars - Secularism and the invention of religion" by James G. Chappel

[albert]

Theist and atheist will be involved in this kind of debate until the sun burns out. None are right and none are wrong. It is a matter of subjective belief, of trial and error and conclusions based thereon. I believe we all are testing life, testing the forces of nature, testing our cherished concepts - conclusions are formed and a way of life develops which allows continuation and not self destruction. An atom is 99.999999999% emptiness. The chair we are currently sitting on we are not actually touching. We are, according to this physicist, levitating over the chair! Please click here for one minute: http://illinois.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/phy03.sci.phys.matter.atoms/atoms-the-space-between/

If Dr. Kaku is correct, then our entire concept of physical reality is subject to question, including our "faith" regarding all of our sense-experiences in the material world! Therefore if we believe this explanation of atomic physics, the caller in your video, as well as the insistent interrogator, are both in the dark! What do you think, Brian?

[777]

Yes Albert
The nucleus a pencil spot in a cathedral
All is just just music and we can observe it
up to a state that subjectivity vanishes

A very clever scheme and lovely too

777

[777]

The only proof is to see Her
but how you know she is real

Better to be her

777

[Osho Robbins]

Dillahunty: Faith can he used to believe (1) a true thing or (2) an untrue thing
Therefore faith is an unreliable path to truth.
Carl: You can’t just rule faith out like that though
Dillahunty: the fuck you can!
What’s going on here?

Carl has based his life on faith and wants to believe he has found the truth
All followers of any religion do the same.
A Christian will make an argument based on verses of the bible – he has faith in the bible
A muslim will make an argument based on the Koran.
A radha soami will make an argument based on what is written in a RS book or the words of their guru.
All of them are convinced they are on the right path.
Why? Because they cannot see beyond their beliefs
Until you drop the belief – you cannot see beyond it
Everything is filtered through it

[Osho robbins]

What is obvious is that the caller cannot use logic because he is too far gone. He cannot answer simple questions

[777]

faith is not enough
One must enter the Crown - Unify with the tremendous Sounds see its yourself AND be One with your guide AND the magic words - all three will be One
next dive in the Creator and it will ever grow

Then A RSSB radha soami will make no argument , . . only if ordered
because everything including those not yet in the know are greater now !
They only differ in 'time'

777

[Osho Robbins]

777,
Most (if not all)RSSB followers have only faith.

They are HOPING that ONE DAY (which never comes) they will meet their master on the inner regions and he will take them on to the higher regions and will finally meet Sat Purush in Sach Khand.

Some followers understand that it was all just a story and not literal. Others insist it is actual.

The current master does not even make it clear which of these is the truth.

The RSSB follower is hoping to go on an inner journey but nothing happens

Even if it does, it's just self-delusion.

Then the RSSB follower spends his life doing seva and begging his master for 'grace'

He believes that the master will come at death and save his soul.

[thisissparta]

And than they are like Osho Robbins which think they know but they dont so they generalize what that group or that group thinks or believes. Osho you are trying so hard to show that you know but you dont. You dont know anything whats in the mind of millions even if they belong to diferent religious groups. Cause you dont know you start generalizing. I think you have been listening to Rajneesh for too long and you seems confused.

[Osho Robbins]

thisissparta,

What exactly do you assert that I think I 'know'?

and how do you conclude that I don't know this thing that you think I 'know'?

And what makes you think I am 'trying so hard' to show that I know?

These are all baseless generalisations - and don't even explain what they are in reference to.

You say I don't know what's in the mind of millions. When did I claim that I DO know what is in the mind of millions?

If you have something constructive to say, say it.

If you want to challenge some statement I have made, go ahead. But just making baseless statements is pointless.

The assertion I made that most RSSB folllowers only have faith is based on the evidence that is all around. After twenty of more years of being on the RSSB path, the majority of followers are still in the dark about what is going on. They are just hoping the master will come at their death.

How do I make this statement? Am I claiming to be able to mind-read the followers? No. I am making this statement because it's based on evidence.

What evidence? The questions that are asked at the events when the guru gives a satsang. "please give me grace," "help me meditate," and "come at the time of my death" are recurring requests.

If you have any evidence to support a different position - go ahead and present it - but don't just make baseless remarks.

For example do you have any personal experience you can present - if you do - please present it. If you don't - then admit you are just another blind followers who only has faith

[Osho Robbins]

Dillahunty is saying that faith is not a reliable path to truth.

If you seek truth - it's not a good idea to simply have faith because all that gives you is a false sense of comfort in that you can believe your path is the truth.

Everyone who follows a religion including RSSB followers simply believes that have the correct path. They will not admit this when challenged because they are convinced that their faith is based on evidence.

For example that muslim says that the Koran is the word of Allah and will quote from it to prove that it has made prophecy that came true, proving it is the true word of Allah

The christian does the same - saving that Jesus is the son of God and died for the sins of humanity.

The RSSB follower makes an assertion that by meditation he will reach God in this lifetime - when it doesn't happen - has takes the fallback position that at lease the guru will come at death to take his soul to higher regions.

What evidence is there to support these statements. The guru himself denies the latter and says "I am not coming at your death" but the follower even ignores this strong piece of evidence, and instead continues to believe what he wants to believe,

|I have heard GSD saying "How can I come at your death when there is only the ONE?" He quotes Paltu who says "Paltu ikoi Ik hai, dusar nahin koi"
meaning "Paltu there is only the ONE - there is no other"

GSD is saying that the follower is under the delusion that there is (1) the follower and (2) the master, and that the master will come to take the soul of the follower.

When there is only ONE - there cannot be follower and master. There cannot be a YOU who gets salvation. ONE means there is no separate self.

These are the current RSSB teachings, and they are incompatible with a master coming at the time of death.

That is all I am saying. I am not claiming to mind-read millions of followers.

[thisissparta]

osho.. then admit you are just another blind followers who only has faith

Sparta: the negative vibe you have against any follower says everything about you. This is becoming a new racism against believers.
No i am not a believer. And the evidence you presented is so poor i cannot even comment. Yoe are in the dark you are just using those people you mentioned to expres yourself. But you wont admit when you are chalenged cause you are convinced your thinking is based on evidence.
And tben you quote gsd. You are the same as rssb people they belive gsd will come and you say gsd will not come. You are the same Osho the same but you wont admit causee....

[thisissparta]

That is all i have to say Osho..otherwise i like you.peace

[Osho Robbins]

thisissparta,
I don't say GSD will not come at death, HE does!
This should be clear from what I have written.

I don't have any negative vibe against followers of RSSB - and it's no new 'racism' as you call it. I am simply making observations that anyone can make.

Why is it racism to make an observation? I have nothing against RSSB followers or followers of any religion.

Do you think Dillahunty in the video is racist against christians or other followers? He is simply taking a position about truth.

How do you see this as racism?

[777]

Gurinder didn't change a word in the initiation notes
where this subject is very clearly explained

I don't go in the exact wording of course
but it's the equivalent of Jesus
saying : Shut up Satan after He acknowledged Satan's administrator Powers
on what is permitted to approach the "door" where Satsangis now can knock
( Paulus ; "without ever stopping" )

So when Kal isn't there at the time of death . . . you think you are alone ?

3 years ago here I described how my wife at the death of her mother saw Charan Ji , brilliantly enveloping the mother
My wife always thought she wouldn't be capable to handle the sadness of that separation
It was a jubilation for her and she totally starts shining when telling about it

Nice note : I wasn't there but hours before I was there and I experienced the whole explanation of
why she was dying that way and why her life had been as it was
as in a movie
In the same super clear way as RSSB satsangis during or between meditations "remember" their own former lives
like some death survivors and NDE people see their whole life in a split second

Best results and perhaps the only results come by Love
a word that is desperately needed in all discussions here

Just love Him, HE has this triggering task on His Shoulders - you see your own Soul yes with His Face
yes like that - because your own face might be a disappointment to experience

777

[Jen]

Faith, beliefs... this is what creates our experiences. We believe in the guru, this is what we will manifest or imagine seeing. People believe in christ, same thing.

So glad xmas is over. Amazing how christians have the gall to inflict their beliefs on everyone no matter that other people follow different paths. Xmas is either going to church or indulging in food, alcohol, drugs. Giving presents that people don't want, oh its good for the economy, so its all about materialism and buying stuff. Or its a time for family, well what about people whose family now live in all different parts of the world. New years eve, people drunk, shouting and vandalism in the streets. So over it!

Thanks Brian, hope you don't mind me having a vent. I don't believe in anything anymore. Just stuff happens :)

[ajga]

https://youtu.be/rXTLUMJQFkw

[777]

Osho said :
Some followers understand that it was all just a story and not literal. Others insist it is actual.
and
The current master does not even make it clear which of these is the truth.

They are both right these followers
We have no idea of how strong the mind is - not speaking about Soul
The storie become/are right and true and sometimes literal
by virtue of the individual mind on any moment depending on pureness
b
Gurinder Ji doesn't want to be instrumental for generating this type of discussions
Also : each Master is so different, He might be so absorbed in His Love that all
subjects are derision
You might google my comments about True Masters and the faqir

777