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October 27, 2016


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What is not vanity? I don't believe your service, whether to guru or any other, is totally vain. Don't berate yourself so much for having served "someone else besides your self". Service makes the world go 'round and without service there would be no web of life, nor any possibility of a higher grade of being. All actions/thoughts by humans are not without at least some element of egotism/vanity. I-ness is a necessary state to simply function in the world and survive. Satisfaction, even if only temporary, is a result of whole hearted service. Thanks for your interesting post, Brian.

Try getting beyond the limitations of your thoughts Brian. I periodically come back to your "Hinesight" to see what kinds of things you've learned to see beyond (what one usually uncovers with hind sight) but unfortunately you are so wind up in your Cooper car and your Strange loops these days that you seem to be still missing the boat to freedom. No big deal...really. Just find it kind of interesting that your intellectual journey hasn't yet taken you beyond "the intellect".

William, what makes you think that what I write about in my blog posts is what is in my head all of the time? You just posted a comment giving me advice to go beyond the limitations of my thoughts. Obviously you used thinking to write what you said. Does this mean that William has "missed the boat to freedom," because you haven't gone beyond "the intellect" that is used to write blog post comments?

Since you don't know me aside from my blog posts, I'd suggest that you be cautious about believing that you understand someone from very limited information. We all are complex creatures, with many sides to ourselves. Every day I spend some time thinking, and some time doing. I start off my morning by meditating; my wife and I end our evenings by watching Stephen Colbert, Trevor Noah, Samantha Bee, and such. In between I do Tai Chi, walk the dog, engage in political activism, deal with house chores.

You have no idea what my inner/outer life is like, nor do I know what yours is like. Understanding this leads us to a desirable humility and lack of judgment toward other people. We can criticize aspects of what people do and say, but the full picture is beyond our knowledge.

I agree with Brain that there can not be a so called after-life. Because if there will be no life anymore, then there can't be an after iife. But when Brain dies, or I die, there still will be LIFE itself...after we're gone. At least that is very much possible that there still will be LIFE after that.

I also beliefe that those who merely beliefe in an after-life because some turban-head had told them so, wish they could live again after this life-time, and that's why they beliefe in it in the first place. But why would they want to live again anyway? Was their life that great that they want to have another ride? Or is their life so mediocre and meanlingless that they need a second chance to get things done?
Either way, I think it's just wishfull thinking, fueled by self proclaimed saints, who have an interest in making people beliefe all kinds of rediculous stuff for the sake of keeping them from doing serious self-inquery.

My point is: It doesn't matter if there is something like re-incarnation or not if one has investigated ones life right now accurately and then came to some conclusions by doing so. Buddhism and also certain schools of traditional advaita-vedanta talk about mosksha, liberation. Liberation from the circle of re-birth in la-la-land, called samsara. Why would someone who did what one came to do here would want to come again? It isn't such a wonderfull and interesting place after all. There is nothing new under the sun of delusion....other than some technical stuff. Bigger bombs, more lies faster delivered via the internet, i-phones and fancy cars aren't that interesting to me.

I'm not comming again. I die out like a mammut. I'm done here.

hi Brian,

How are you doing ?
I hope you and your wife are spending happy and healthy time.
Coming to this website after so long.

(please don't mind if you have already watched it)
Did you get a chance to look at this lovely video released by RSSB:
Enigma Of Love: http://www.rssb.org/videos.php
This video also shows the recent updates and happenings at the Dera. Maybe you can still enjoy viewing the renovations and new brand liquors at your very old bar ;)

It's evident with your posts that you don't have trust anymore on the teachings and the Masters of RSSB. But, I would still like to repeat the words of true saints, and specially of our beloved Maharaj Ji:
"You can leave the Master if you wish so, but the Master won't leave you ever"

And the above statement is so true and I have witnessed events of this sort. And Brian you are going to realise this.


I liked the last line of your comment "I'm not coming... I'm done here".
The problem is until we are free from our karmas, it's not in our hands to decide about our death and birth and the re-birth.

And it's not just that the Master has explained about the afterlife and the cycles of death and birth, there are living people with profound past life experience and some of them have also shared on this website in form of comments.

For example, a commenter "777" remembers (just like the old days from the very life as we all remember) the days from his multiple past lives... you can read the comment here: http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2012/03/a-fresh-look-at-seth-shiv-dayal-singh-soami-ji.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2019103f861e2970c#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2019103f861e2970c

Lots of love to everyone.

@One Initiated : Yes the master never leaves us. He is more concerned about us and our journey than we are. But you know what, Brian and the others on this site already know the theory and know it better than us. Coz to critique something you need better hold on the subject :) The time will come back. When one day, suddenly the master will save him, help him or just show himself once again. When the Karma's are out of way. He had been meditating 2 1/2 hrs every day for 30 years. That earning is in his account. Will never go waste.

@Brian : I want to ask you.

1. On one of your posts you had mentioned a nice internal experience, you cutting through the star and speedily taking a trip leaving the earth... and since then you can reach the star but never gone beyond. How after experiencing such great stuff could you lose your faith? Reaching the star is amazing... beyond that is the radiant form of master the noori swaroop. Not many reach where you reached. Dont go back. Try a bit... dont give up.

2. Tell me something. Have you never experienced 'co-incidence' or 'oh how did that happen' moments in your life. Tell if at times things just did not happen, or way's made, and opportunities showed up, or things happened with ease. Please remember the toughest time of your life and think back, was there something that helped you through it? meditation (simran) reduces the weight of karma by 1/3rd ... next time if at all you go through some bad time, please for experiment sake repeat the holy words... and see the weight of pain reduce or path / way just opening up.

One initiated is right. Kick the master if you want. He will never leave you. He is reading every post on this blog and smiling !

As much as I disagree with some stuff (concepts) Brian is posting here, I don't doubt for a second that he was a true real devotee of that linage he now is exposing as what it stands for. He did that simran/mantra/meditation practise for more than 30 years and he also did seva (selfless service to the community) and now he is free. Done! End of story.

According to all you sant-mat believers Brian was freed and liberated, by his "master" to be what he is right now: an atheist, or better an anti-theist. One could say Brain was made an atheist by God/god's will. And that fact the believers can not deny, that Brain indeed did his sadhana and is therefore now liberated from being a "slave" of some "master". In other words: He mastered not being a slave any longer. What's your problem with that?

This is a remarkable website-open to the TRUTH .Besides Brian-other speakers have been shown the door by Gurinder.I was stunned when I listened to the video presented by a man called "Osho Robbins"-it was a great satsang-IMHO-but apparently,Gurinder did not like it.Maybe it was because he mentioned"Buddha" a couple of times-and Gurinder did not like the competition-;^)).........v152

@ Upsetter : Well I agree with you 100% that Brian had been a true satsangi, unlike 99% around the world. And my first ever comment to him was applaud him in admiration, on how he followed the practice dedicatedly for 3 decades.

Well if there is a blog here to talk out all the negative experience towards sant mat, I believe there should be some (teeny tiny) room for a believer to voice their opinion too. Else its a one way discussion. Trust me, likes of me will get bombarded by the non believers here in no time. There will be an army out soon to bash me up :)

Who said we or other believers have a problem with brain falling out? Please read my comment again. I asked him a genuine question - as to how it happened despite he experiencing things... i genuinely want to know if miracles did not happen in his life. Do I not have a right to ask a genuine question out of curiosity? For a moment dont judge.

What is happening and has happened on this earth is always by God's will. Call him guru, a supernatural power, a plant god or a sky god. But the GOD is what runs the show and nothing ever happens without his will. So with that logic, if someone has left the path (true or fake), its by His will (i am not saying guru of santmat - i am saying which ever the real god is) - so humans like me have no right to question His will.

Problem is people here are so hurt by their experience (or lack of it) that they all use rudeness/ harsh words to drive the message home, while what, one like me is seeking for, is a pure polite conversation. Please read my comment again and tell where was the harshness needed :)

Tiya, many people experience what you call "miracles". They have out of body experiences, strange paranormal experiences, visit other planets, meet non physical beings, and they do it on their own. No need for a guru to guide them on their way. Just a strong will and intent. Living an ethical life and having a strong character helps. Also, these so called miracles and OBEs could all be a dream like state.

Don't know which God you are talking about but this complete submission to another being is something I no longer think is healthy. I know that my feelings of inadequacy and lack of confidence and faith in myself was the reason I was hooked into Sant Mat.

This world is illusionary and we create our own reality with our thoughts and beliefs. Letting go of a belief system, especially a strong one like following a spiritual master happens gradually and suddenly one feels liberated and much stronger in self.

Satsangis are into ego bashing and being humble and handing over all their individual power to another which is really quite unhealthy. A healthy ego is a sense of self, as an individuated being, on a path of discovery (imo) :)

@ Jen : Glad to see a view point here by you without talking in derogatory manner. Really appreciate, hope more people did that :)

True that OBE's and many many other experiences can be achieved without any kind of Guru. And that is exactly what I wanted confirm. Path as per sant mant has a different purpose. But even without a guru, one can on his own can gain powers even to the extend of walking on water, converting gold out of iron so on...

well belief in God is nothing but submission, be it a church, or temple or a mosque. So yes from that angle i am in complete submission. But I get your point of being liberated and being in path of discovery....

So just for conversation. If there was no god or super being... then what does the theory say ? where does this path of discovery lead or to what ?

Hi Tiya, thanks for the reply.

Where does this path of discovery lead to, well, from my pov it continues hopefully, life after life, evolving according to our specific quality of consciousness and I'm hoping to continue enjoying the journey. Arrival.. thats the big question!

Hey Jen. Keep updating on your journey and progress. And good luck with that :)

What are the experiences that you have been through so far ?

@Jen : so you still believe in life after life... ? who is controlling all of it. Do you think there will be a super being still or all is science and somewhere and end to the big bang ?

Hi Tiya,

Not much point in having beliefs if they can't be proven. But there is a part of me that hopes there is a continuation after death. Otherwise this current life is pointless.

Have no idea who or what the creator is, and who is in control? One of my recent realisations was that in the path of Sant Mat we are told about the inner regions and how we slowly through meditation make our inner progress to Sach Khand and that the ruler of this region is the Supreme Being called Sat Purush. So we are never free! We are still subjects of some supreme being.

Sounds kind of boring to me so I'm hoping to just continue on my path of discovery as some kind of individuated energetic unit of consciousness with free will. Does there have to be a God, a creator... maybe we are all co-creators of this physical universe?

Sorry... just thinking out loud.. life is short and full of mysteries. Love to all of ya...

I have to say that egotism is ultimately part of our nature. Just wishing to remain alive is egotistic. Eating is egotistic. Breathing is egotistic. No matter how indulged we are in caring for others, or choosing to hide behind altruism, it is ultimately a very human trait to be egotistic.

I am not sure whether or not an attack on egotism is an attack on an afterlife, should there be one. If it is, it is a rather weak one. We strive to exist and to live, which is one of the main driving forces of modern science: improvements, based on empirical knowledge, to help end suffering and to extend our lives. Naturally, we'd want to keep on living longer and longer. Maybe for some, not eternity, but "close to eternity".

As for the afterlife itself, I could only reduce it to the abstraction of "nothingness". Just to talk about "nothing" makes it into "something", some sort of state of being. "Nothing" is an abstract concept used for convenience, mainly in measurements. It's like the number "301". There can be 301 grains of rice in a bowl, 301 cards in a deck, but have you ever seen "301" itself? Religion isn't my style, but it does make no sense that there's nothing, rather than something.

If life right here, right now makes no sense and has no objective purpose, why should an afterlife make sense or have purpose? Maybe we just live for eternity in some lucid dream-world-land "just because".

Have a good weekend

Hi again Jen :)

True that no fun if the beliefs cant be proven !

Well, just want to state something on what you mentioned " So we are never free! We are still subjects of some supreme being?"

Well, sant mat does not say we are in his hands, it says we are Him...we are not just the part of the ocean which is seperated but whole of ocean. At this very moment talking to you (online), both you and me are Him.. just our awareness is hidden... so from that perspective, we dont have to 'go' anywhere, we are very much there, but need to waken up. Just saying this to say that we are as free as we can be (not trapped etc)

Well, if i set out of sant mat and say we are individuals on a path etc... still there has to be some creator... it all cant be just big bang, its all too huge and sophisticated even for science lol. so even if not an out and out beliver of sant mat, i would have still thought there was a super being... or creator of it all.

by the way whom did you get initiated from, and how many years back (if you dont mind telling)

If there is a creator/God/god or not does not matter much for those who know by now why and what for they are here, embodied as a human being. First things first. What do you know anyway if you don't even know who/what you are? And to answer the question openly what/who I am: I'm here to expose and deny concepts that enslave and discourage people from being self-sufficiant and free from delusions.

To me it does not matter a tiny little bit if there is a creator/God/god or not. What matters is: What does one make of it, believing in such creator? Does it make you a better person? Does it make you a more courageous and free human being? Does it inspire you to help others to have better lifes? Does the mere discussion about that subject do anything for anybody at all?

Personally, I prefer an atheist/non-believer who does the right things I value over some theologian who merely talks about God/god or a creator. A atheist/non-believer dentist who can fix my teeth I totally prefer over anybody who deals in propagating some god-concepts.

But if someone has the notion to be some sort of a slave to some kind of imaginary being or force called God/god/creator, please feel free to engage in that. But be so kind and keep that for yourself. Do the good work and then, if that is done, you probably don't care about debating such ideas/concepts any longer. Because...just because...it doesn't matter....(literally).

And by this I'm not saying there isn't a creator/God/god.

I'd like to share my feelings and understanding about the illusions of Sant Mat. I was initiated by Charan when I was 23 years old and am now 71. I have never been religious and when I heard about Sant Mat I liked the idea of the guru being a good example, something for me to aspire to, how to grow and evolve spiritually. I now realise that Sant Mat is already or is becoming another religion.

I had a very brief interview with Charan once, with my then husband, in the 70's. Being very shy in those days I glanced at him as we walked in the room. He was sitting behind a desk and I didn't speak and sat down with my eyes downcast, while by husband did the talking.

Because I am very intuitive I do pick up on energies and my impression from my glance as I walked in was of someone with the weight of the world on his shoulders. He was kind of slumped in the chair. I did not get a good vibe. It was like he was tired and bored with all these people wanting to meet him. I also had a vision come to me of a toad sitting there in the chair. Gotta laugh! Haven't told anyone else this story. I am quite psychic and I know that in witches folklore the toad is a witches familiar used in magic and they are thought to have psychic powers. My so called vision did freak me out at first but apparently "throughout history the toad has been a bridge to the otherworld".

I do hope Brian doesn't mind if I post this short video (2:57) which I found this morning when thinking about this incident. My first and only inner impression when meeting a PLM... lol - I do think we create our own reality.


Thanks Jen for your story

So, your ex was granted to save the frog from the chaurasi wheel of transmigration

Looking around on the planet , it's the only wise move to do

Yes, His countless Creations seem enormously vast and complicated
but it's just adding Love ( Sound ) in the Love ( Sound ) source so that it ever grows.


Thanks 777,

Its all about perception and interpretation, something my subconscious projected and I'm hoping its symbolic of metamorphosis (from tadpole to frog). Metamorphosis: "a change of the form or nature of a thing or person into a completely different one". Anyway, thats quite a positive way for me to look at it :)

I used to be an atheistic, or certainly an agnostic, and didn't believe in an afterlife, but I now believe otherwise.

In my opinion, there's a high chance of an afterlife, but a low chance of proving it.

Scientifically, I suspect it's Everett's MWI of quantum physics that is closest to any possible crude scientific explanation for an alternative reality (or afterlife), but i don't think it's provable. It would require a method of enquiry different from science and physical sense.

Intuitively, I think the existence of an afterlife is best supported by 'Love'. For me, what comes closest to a fact is the existence of Love. Love cannot be proven, but you intuitively know when someone loves you, without telling you, surer than anything else. You cant prove it, you just know it. You might be able to infer it from the physical acts they do for you, but you know that doesn't even come close to expressing the depth of love itself. No things or words or concepts come close to describing it. I don't have any of that feeling for the existence of an afterlife, but based on love I do know things can exist without being physically provable.

Philosophically, I would argue that the afterlife exists because something exists, rather than nothing. Not random, but ordered reality governed by laws. Something ordered supposedly created from disordered nothing.

Imaginatively, I think our evolved mammalian brains are limited. We can't vaguely comprehend the size of our physical universe, let alone all 'dark' part of it. I suspect it's largely these limitations that created religions. Other ways of trying to explain natural phenomenon that at the time are not capable of being understood. We observe that something exists, and cause and effect, so there must be a first mover which is above all these laws. To explain we started with creation myths, which evolved into Big Bang. Better granularity for sure, but still only ever a rough digital explanation of an analog reality. The idea is the same: trying to explain/describe our existence using our limited imaginations.

A theoretical physicist like Einstein fundamentally had a great imagination, he's a story-teller, one whose story we find better matches reality then the story-tellers and their imaginations before him. To come up with a groundbreaking hypothesis, often without any proof, requires imagination. It's only later that experimental physics can offer a scientific proof to take it from story-telling to science.

Feynman put it best:
'Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we can imagine'.

We can imagine supernatural things (like the 'afterlife' and 'God'), and so I suspect in reality these things are not only natural (albeit unexplainable), but there are even stranger things that we can't imagine and would call extra-supernatural if we could.

It has been several years since I last made a comment on this site but after reading Defoe's letter I wanted to respond. Like Brian I was initiated by Charan Singh many years ago[Oct., 1970] through his then representative, Roland DeVries, in his home in Riverside, Ca. A few months before I had seen & heard the PLM hold satsang in Pasadena, Ca., during his last world tour, had been reading Sant Mat books for a few months prior to that event & been attending satsangs in the LA area. I wasn't eligible to apply for initiation yet as I had eaten my last fish dinner the night before at my future [now ex] wife's senior prom[I was 25, she was 17] & smoked my last joint a week before but was convinced that the teachings were the absolute truth & decided to apply for initiation asap. At that time the waiting period was 30 days for following the first 3 vows[lacto vegetarian diet, no drugs or alcohol except for medicinal purposes-now tobacco, vaping & medical marijuana prohibited- & high morality inc. celibacy if single], now it is 1 year plus the minimum age to apply is back to 22 after having been at 25 for many years. In those days we were allowed to meditate for 30 minutes a day with Radha Soami as the mantra. It's still a huge challenge to go from almost no meditation to 2 & 1/2 hours a day imo. Personally I am able to sit for 1 hour & 45 minutes but only do simran[repeating the 5 holy names at the 3rd eye] & no bhajan[listening to or for the sound current] as I find it to be a waste of time & very uncomfortable to plug my ears with elbows on my knees. I don't visualize at all so the dhyan[inner vision of the guru's face] part has never happened for me. Although I probably wouldn't be interested in this practice if I came across it today as a seeker of truth[it is still harder to find out about than most yoga/meditation systems because no advertising permitted or money charged, much harder to learn about before the internet & it was almost semi secret in the 70's & before & you usually learned about it in a way that seemed cosmic or so we thought which made us all feel special & chosen out of the heedless multitude] & the present living master doesn't attract me at all. I learned about it from a friend who "left the path"[term for straying from Sant Mat/RS] in the late 90's but am still friends with despite our difference in opinions both spiritually & politically. I continue with the lifestyle with a what if & just in case it's true attitude about the Sant Mat teachings while enjoying life moment to moment which includes tennis, yoga, downhill skiing, golf, reading, TV, movies, tasty organic gluten free vegan food & more. I went to India twice-the first time with my ex wife to the Dera in Dec.-Jan., 1978-79 & the 2nd time to Delhi & Bombay with my present wife of 31 years when the Punjab was off limits to foreigners due to martial law. To be honest I found the trips to be more disruptive of my routine than spiritually rewarding to be in the company of a saint & I will never go to India again although my wife is going next month to the Dera for 2 weeks with 2 female friends. She is the secretary of our local sangat & much more fundamentalist than me but somehow we are able to live & let live. I preferred the good old days before having all these centers being built throughout the world & having a jet set guru who comes to your vicinity on a short notice[24-48 hours] so the faithful can drop everything, fly or drive to a center to attend a 1& 1/2-2 hour meeting with a very short talk followed by Q & A in English or Punjabi with the belief that there will be spiritual benefit from the darshan/dhrishti. I've been to a couple of those in Petaluma but haven't been for many years as I discovered that it was very low on my effort vs. reward scale imo. No regrets as overall the lifestyle is healthy.
That's it for now & I welcome a response or comment from Defoe or anyone else out their in cyber space.
Don Pedro.

Where did the comment by Defoe go? He inspired me to write a comment but now his words have vanished into thin air. Brian, did he ask you to remove his comment or did you yank it? Most peculiar imo.
Don Pedro

Don Pedro, Defoe asked me to remove it. But I've just unpublished it, not deleted it. I've asked Defoe if there is a way to republish the comment, maybe with some editing that he might want. Hopefully this will be possible, because I really like his comment also. I was even thinking of making it into a blog post so more people would read it.

Brian, Thanks for removing the comment. I'm writing you an email to explain further. I will surely want to re-publish it with some editing, or even make it into a blog post like you said.

Don Pedro, I look forward to engaging with you and all other like minded folks on this blog a lot more in future.

Thank you for the explanation of what happened to Defoe's comment, Brian.
Defoe, I will be happy to banter with you when the time is right. In the meantime I suggest that you click on Radha Soami Satsang Beas in the list of categories & read as many comments as you can find by Tao, Tucson, Mike Williams & Osho Robbins as they have all been there, done that, are speaking from years of experience with RSSB as well as other spiritual practices & have come to similar conclusions.
May the longtime sun shine upon you.
Don Pedro.

Quote Don...Tao, Tucson, Mike Williams & Osho Robbins

......they also spread pseudo stuff...lies.. dogmatic and generaly very confusing stuff...

To Splift:
You are entitled to your opinions of Tao, Tucson, Mike Williams & Osho Robbins. Allow Defoe to do his own exploration & make up his own mind as to whether or not what they are saying is of value to him. I neglected to mention another person of interest & personal friend of mine[Tucson is too], David Lane. You can find his comments throughout the RSSB posts.
To Brian:
Although I don't think we have ever met, I heard you speak in person at 2 separate satsang weekends. The first was in Sedona, Az., in 2001 & the 2nd was in Tucson, Az., in 2002. Your discourses were very thought provoking & extemporaneous to a great extent & I enjoyed them very much. You reminded me of David Lane's satsang talks back in the 80's & early 90's when he lived in Del Mar, spoke at home & general satsangs in the San Diego area & even was the secretary of the Encinitas general satsang for a few years. We still have an occasional phone conversation & last saw him at the World Bodysurfing contest in Oceanside where he is a perennial contender.
Big reveal:
I live in Encinitas, Ca. aka Omcinitas & yoga mecca, home of Swami's Beach & SRF Meditation Gardens.

Sorry Tucson didnt lie... Other three porovenly did. David lane is the best.

To Splift: " David Lane is the best", .....what?
Best Guru Buster? Here is what he says he would like to do to Gurus: Quote David: "
"We are pretty adept, however, at blushing when we see a pretty guru dressed to kill, not stopping to reflect that a good dose of Noxzema will reveal the true nature of a Crawford like mole. It is that very mole, I would suggest, that demands some more inspection. But in order to do that we need to leave off the cosmetics and get at the blemished face. That is, we need to sink the elevated podium, shave off the beard, de-turban the head, rip off the third eye patch, unplug the automatic lineage legimitizer, get a good translator, and take a Stridex Pad and wipe clean the accumulated glossing sheen pasted on by the hype police. We need, in other words, to see the guru just as he or she is, devoid of the costumes and jewels. We need to see the guru naked. Be forewarned: it may not be a pretty sight. But then again: how beautiful are we naked?"

What else is David the best at, in addition to Guru Busting? Does the above only apply to Gurus with moles like Ishwar Puri and Thakar's, and Tubans like Gurinder and Rajinfer Singh's, or polished Gurus like Lane him self who are Self proclaimed Gurus,....of a sort? Or is Lane the "best" Double Agent Satsangi hiding in Exer clothing, or best Exer satsangi hiding in Satsangi's clothing?

Sent from my i Pad -- Jim Sutherland

Yes interesting Jim cool questions. Jim you write back....that you are initiated i think by Charan Singh right? But do you also like or follow Gurinder Singh...i mean do you like the guy

Split, you did not answer my question. "David is the best WHAT?"
As for me liking or not liking the Successor of who my Master, Charan Singh groomed as a Youngster, to succeed him, why would I not like, or follow his Teachings? Charan said all Masters are the same, and are projected from Shabd. Gurinder Singh is Charan Singh in a younger Earth Suit. What's the big mystery? Exers who slander Gurinder, also slander Charan by Proxy, and most likely have never seen the Radiant Form of neither inside.

Split, I am insured by Charan Singh Spiritually, as well as physically. Just before I was initiated by Charan Singh, I bought a $100,000 Life Insurance Policy from a large Insurance Broker. They advertised on KFI Radio in Southern California, and I responded, and purchased a Policy. When I received my Documents and Policy in the Mail, my heart skipped a beat when I read the Signature of my Insurance Agent, signed,.....Charan Singh!

Jim ahhh forget lane. Does anybody tells if they see this form inner. Do you see it ...what is like does it help you..how...is it njce..does it tell you future..or protect

Wow Jim That serendipity is as astounding
as my own story on

Split, you are the one who brought up Lane, and now when asked to answer the question asked, you now want to forget him! How come? You ask if ANY ONE sees inner Radiant Form! Do you read what Lane posts on Hine's Church, or what Lane's Devotees say about him? Mike Williams, ( Pseudo Moniker) said that Lane said he saw the Radiant Form as well as many others in this Church! Why don't you ask Mike Williams and Lane to fess up, and describe how "njce" that Form was? As for me, Sant Mat Path has taught me that we are ALL God in human form! Example: God is AIR. We, as physical bodies live in AIR. Yet, in order to live, we must breath in this AIR, making our bodies God in Human Form! The Old Testament Bible states that God Breathed in the Breath of Life and man BECAME a living soul! God in Human Form! But simplifying how I arrived here, as Jim, read my conjecture in my Blog, as I have it figured out. If you or any other Church Members here have a more intellegent conjecture, share it!

Are you initiated by a Sant Mat master or not & if yes, who? If not, why not? Another guru or a free agent/seeker of truth ?

Simple i want to forget cause i read your messages and you are more interesting and fine guy but you did not answer the radiant form questions. Otherwise i like to read you and respect you

Don Pedro what does that matter.

Split, perhaps what you need is some " Lover Charger" Satsangs. For you Exers that don't like Gurinder Singh's Satsangs, or his Security Guards, consider when he visits New Deli to give Satsang it is reported that between 300,000 to 400,000 people show up just to get a glimpse of him! Now, of all those people sitting on the floor on Mats, eagerly waiting to see him, does any one really believe they care about asking some stupid question? Or imagine 400,000 people wondering around with Cell phones recording Gurinder and each other with out any Security? If you prefer that kind of Sat Sang, then I advise attending a Sat Sang where this RS Exer Self proclamed Guru claims that twenty five million show up at his Sat Sangs! Even Ishwar Puri doesn't make this many Seekers dance to the Divine Music!


Still didnt get the answer

Thousands of people flocking to see the guru. People are desperate. The old religions are dying out and they want something new to cling to. Its a dangerous and chaotic world and probably going to get worse. In the hippy days the movement was about love and peace and the flower children. Now people are on edge and theres a strong feeling of anxiety and fear. Is believing in a god and worshiping a guru going to help? Amazing burden the guru is taking on. But then, maybe he feeds on the energy from the adoration.

Splift, Jim didn't answer you & you didn't answer me. Simply put I am curious to know what your qualifications are to be a participant in this conversation. If you choose not to answer my questions so be it & in the bigger picture who gives a rat's ass what any of us think, say or do. As of right now I don't know that there is a god/God so for now I don't believe in god/God but am open to the direct experience of something beyond the material world while doing my best to live in the present, not dwell on the past & or worry about the future. Psychedelics took me there & back in the late 60's but I wasn't in control of the outcome whereas I am supposed to be when meditating yet can't get my mind to hold still at the eye center. Meditation for me is basically a brief vacation from daily life & has given me physical & mental health benefits for sure. As of right now I have never consciously experienced my master playing a role in my life yet that doesn't mean that it won't happen someday out of the blue but I'm not holding my breath until it occurs & will go about my business as if I am in charge of it. I know people who are "true believers" & can say with apparent certainty that master did this & did that especially when it's a challenging situation[heavy karma] but that ain't me, babe. Jen described the time period during which I tuned in, turned on & dropped out, then found the answer to all of my questions in the first Sant Mat book that I read[Spiritual Discourses, Vol. 2] & my life suddenly had a direction that led to a goal that was guaranteed to to be attained within 4 life times but potentially achievable in 1 according to the teachings. I could have my cake & eat it too it seemed. It turns out that like anything else in life, practice makes perfect so tomorrow morning I'll wake up around 6:30am, have a super green powder drink, sit in my bed with my back propped against the wall with 2 cushions, repeat simran for 1 hour & 45 minutes & then stop when my alarm gong goes off & start my day. Then see how it unfolds.

Splift, My questions & your answers may matter to some people who visit this site. I am curious to know if you are a satsangi[initiate of a RS master[ or not& if not, have you ever read a RS Sant Mat book or attended a satsang? The teachings & lifestyle are the same whether they are given from Gurinder Singh or one of Kirpal Singh's successors, only the legitimacy is questionable imo. If you are not a Sant Mat initiate, do you follow another guru or practice? The ball is in your court.

Don Pedro, is that your real name? I hate conversing with people who hide behind pseudo Monikers, but I feel a Spiritual vibration reading your above post. I am really a no body, as compared to you old Charan Initiates, as I have never been to the Dera, and having just turned 75 and can't go over 90 minutres with out needing to Whiz, I most likely never will visit the Dera. I was one of the very last initiated by Charan Singh. I have read most of the gripes by Ecers since Charan died, and appointed Gurinder Singh, and still remain full of Faith in the Sant Mat Path. But I know that no matter what I would share here, would not change how others feel who have given up the Path, because of all the various excuses and reasons posted hete and on Lane's RSS site. But I applaud you for still trying, and sitting in meditation still in expectation! Where do you think Charan Singh is right now? Where ever he is, his Radiant Form could appear to you at any time you are inside, with out warming, to personally counsel YOU! Hold that thought, because it is true, as witnessed by Desciples that have never posted here. On my blof, linked above, I shared a post I made on Lane's RSS site years ago, and unfortunitely it can't be linked, so hete it is if Brian allows it.
The following is a post I shared on a Meditation site in 2003 about a peak Meditation experience I had, when I first started experimenting with meditation. I have decided to post it here, so I may access it before I forget it altogether. Of course, there are many methods and paths that teach students how to leave their material bodies and Astral travel, as the Apostle Paul and most of the old Testament Prophets did. My way was/is unorthodox, and was very time consuming, but proved to me that "I" am not bound to my physical body and have access to other dimensions when ever I choose to put in the time and effort to have a change of scenery, so to speak! I was never into Drugs at any time, other than alcohol, which I gave up altogether at age 35 ., Without further explanation, ....for now, here it is, just as I shared it in 2003.

Now, for what I found and did not find, in my Space Cadet tours:
As stated before, I never saw any light nor heard any sound before initiation. At initiation, and being free of flesh foods for 90 days, alcohol and drugs for 10 years, I did see a few small "sparks" of light and did hear some "conch or sea shell" sounds when Thakar stuck his thumb in my ear!

After I got home and started to practice on my own, using the simran and Bajan technique, I saw flashes of light that lasted longer, and heard sound that was louder. I took my lessons from Sawan's book, "Spiritual Gems." I spent two years meditating under thakar's regime, both home and with others at his meetings, but was never able to get any further then the flashes of light nor hear any sound without plugging my ears with my thumbs. Many of Thakar's desciples carried around "bajan sticks" everywhere with them. It was a stick shaped like a cross or tee about 3 ft. high. you could sit down in a chair and put or rest your arms on the cross at the top of the stick, and plug your ears with your thumbs for long periods, without exhausting your arms. It seems not very many meditators I saw in Thakar's group spent much time in bajan. they mostly used the sticks, or just sat in chairs plugging their ears, and many used real ear plugs. I tried all of the above, but never got beyond the flashes of light, nor conch sound only when the ears were plugged. So, boredom sat in after a couple of years, and I was either ready to jump the fence to greener pastures, or quit, altogether. I talked to many Kirpal initiates who had come to Thakar, and most of them were on the same experience level as I, i.e. bored!! I can't ever remember meeting Thakar on the inside. During my early attempts at meditation, I did see many phantom like people I didn't recognize, and even demon like creatures who taunted me! I also felt like I was always off balance, or was ready to lift off my meditation chair, but never really did. I would seem to fall asleep, and my head would fall forward onto my chest, and I would wake up choking or gasping for air, as my wind pipe would be cut off. I read where a master tied his hair to a tree, so his head would stay up, but, I am bald, so that wouldn't work for me! So, I tilted my recliner chair I was meditating in just back far enough, so that my head would not fall on my chest, but my spine would stay straight. But, as XXXXX testified about her meditation experiences, there was mostly a lot of snoring. At the satsang meeting, we would meditate as a group, and there would be many snoring! so, doubts began to set in for me, and I started to explore new possibilities. I read Darshan Singh's books, went to a couple of his meetings. I didn't like his looks, and his talks never got a hook in me. I read Ajib Singh's books, and liked them, and sent for his tapes. He didn't speak English, so needed an interpreter, and I just couldn't feel any heart strings pulling me in his direction. As I said, I was reading Agra books, and enjoyed them, but RSSB books really moved my soul the most! I began to feel I wanted to find how I could get initiation from Charan. ( Before I forget, when I finally did get initiated by Roland DeVries ( Roland was an Ex Penticostal Preacher with a Th.D. Degree from Ashbury Theological Seminary, so a Brother of my own Ilk) by proxy for Charon, I was first surprised that the simran was the same, but he went into more detail about the bajan posture. The reading of the initiation ceremony from charan was moving and interesting for me, but in all, I was disappointed in the simplicity of the initiation itself, as it seemed to be just a carbon copy of Thakar's and I had already wasted two years using that method without any significant or satisfying results. I left there actually not very encouraged that I would get any more then I already had.

I went home and started the same old meditation routine, but just changed my visualization from Thakar to Charan. It was difficult to make the transition at first, because I had seen Thakar many times in person, and even had been laser beam zapped by him, but had never seen Charan in person. But, I bought his videos at satsang, and every cassette tape that was available and began to view the tapes. The transition began to really take a hold on me, and after listening to hundreds of his tapes with all the usual Q & A sessions in India, I became an "Arm Chair Desciple." I can't really say I fell in love with Charan, long distance, because he had already left the body before we had a chance to establish any real relationship such as most of you core satsangees had with him, but I did really develope a very strong fondness for him. ( I will try and describe my present feeling for him and reasons in a later post.)

I must say, after what I considered the boring initiation by Roland DeVries,( I have always wondered if he reads these posts, or if he might even be an Xer or at least a Lurker on the fence?) I must confess my meditation expierience took off in leeps and bounds as I applied the time sitting. I religiously sat from 4:30 AM until 7:00 AM for seven years. My job schedule allowed me the liberty of doing so, but, I changed jobs, and could no longer keep any definite schedule, and until now, my meditations were hit and miss, 30 min. to an hour here and there.

But, I progressed to large flases of light, even like lighning bolts, as Sawan said would happen. I first saw bright light, bright as the sun, a golden color. Then, beyond the sun, I saw a silvery white sphere, that looked like the moon, Sawan said that would be there. Please note, I never saw everything all at once, and it took about five years before I progressed past the moon. Then, after the moon, I saw what I think Sawan refered to as The Star. For me, the star was not 5 pointed, but it actually looked like a glittering diamond, to a silvery white glittering lotus flower. There was a black center in the star, and I fought to keep my focus on the center looking at the black hole. Suddenly, either the star started moving towards me real fast, or I started to be sucked into the vortex of the black hole in the star. I don't know which, to this day. But, with a lot of practice, I finally was sucked through the center of the star, and that's when the real experiences began! Don't ask me what plane of level or realm I was on, I just don't know.

But, after I broke through the "Black Hole" of the Lotus, I seemed to be in outer space, but the sky was a very bright blue, more blue then any blue sky I have ever experienced. Plus, I was traveling at a very high rate of speed. I felt like I was still sitting in the meditation position, and like I was on a magic carpet. I fought to maintain my balance as it felt like I kept slipping off the carpet and would turn on my side or up side down. I kept focusing right at the center but, was able to see a round planet of some type on my left far ahead, and also another larger planet, (round) on my right, far ahead of me. I was moving so fast, that I actually felt (or seemed to) feel the wind in my face and my hair, (what little I had left) blowing in the wind. When the speed increased to WARP speed, I started to panic, and looked back from where I came from, and as God is my witness, I actually saw the earth back there with all the water and land masses, just like we see from the space shots. I really panicked, then, and.......,ZAPP! I woke up back in by body, or back from the space cadet trip, at least. Now, if all those experiences were the results of just brain neurons firing, I sure seemed to have a lot of input and control on the methodology of having taken the trip. This was my peak experience, and I only went that far out once. But, I spent many more years trying to get there and beyond, with out the success again. I was able to (and am still able) to get to the star, but am never allowed to go through the black hole, or portal again. ( Guess after giving away my experience to ya'll, I won't even see any more flashes or specks of light, but, I'm OK with that, too.)

I also had many OBEs, and went through walls, ceilings, through the roof, and rode my magic carpet over the houses in my neighborhood. It seemed I always kept picking up speed to WARP until I panicked, and ZAPP! I landed back in my body in my meditation chair with a noticeable THUD.

Well, that's the high lights of my meditation experiences, for what ever its worth to the club. I trust I may also be put into the "Loony" category by some here, along with other past posters who chose to bare more of their experiences than some are ready to hear, but, that's OK. As they say, "different strokes for different folks."

I must say, before I move on, none of these past experiences presently make me feel any more spiritual nor stroke my ego. I only witness that they happened to me, and I am still able to get at least to the star, using the RSSB technique described by Sawan in "Spiritual Gems." Will it save me from The Wheel of 84?" You be the judge.

Eternal Flame
Posted by Eternal Flame at 8:32 PM Links to this post

Jim, of course Don Pedro is not my real name, just a fun pseudonym I made up with credit due to the books by Carlos Castaneda about Don Juan & his band of sorcerers[brujos & brujas]in the Sonoran desert of Mexico that I & many of my cohorts read starting around 1970. One time when I made a comment & called myself Nagual Don Pedro, I was scolded by Tao for using a title that had to be earned & not just a self appointment. So I dropped Nagual & now am eliminating Don. My real first name is Peter[Pedro in Spanish] & I'll leave it at that. I might use Santo Pietro occasionally because of my Italian ancestry.
It's interesting how all the recent comments started with one that was pulled by the writer & there seems to be no end in sight as to where this is going especially with your descriptions of your inner journeys. Since there is no way to prove they are real or delusions, your so called inner experiences are entertaining fantasies. Only when or if I have my own inner sight & sound show inc. the radiant form of the guru will I have something to compare to what you described, until then it is your version & not mine. Now I hear that BBJ recently said there are no inner regions in Q & A at the Dera but the person who transcribed that added that he could mean that until we become spiritually mature we are like young children who can't understand what's being taught in college. Maybe you did break on through to the other side while the rest of us are still playing in the jungle gym of Pinda[physical plane or region]. Who knows if you are free of the wheel of 84 as the teachings say that attachments bring us back to this creation & the initiate that has no spiritual progress to his/her credit but is detached from this illusionary world will fly like a bird that has been released from a cage back to its home. End of story.

Don pedro....rssb gurinder and i done all yogas before and after. Still get back to shabd yog which suits me best. Love.S

People say that Gurinder said that no inner planes just levels of consciousness and many of this forum say it its his stuff...but it is not... i just found exactly the same answer of Charan in his books. The point is you can give tousands theories and names to this inner stuff but it doesn't matter the thing there is and will always be the same.

Peter, why are you still hiding behind a pseudo Moniker? Are you hiding from the Law? Are you ashamed of your past? I assume you must be old enough by now to have reconciled your past mistakes by now, if you were doing drugs in the 60s. As fir me, I married at 19 and was struggling to support my young family working two jobs. ( I am still with my only wife after 55 years married. ) I never came to the Sant Mat Path until I was 45 years old, but when I did, like Dr. Julian Johnson, I was ready! Why I broke thru while you old Satsangis and Exers have not been able to yet, will remain a mystery to those skeptics who believe they have given the Path their best and still come up short. I admit that the Path is not easy, and not for Americans who want Drive Thru Spirituality along with their McDonald's Big Mac, Fries and Coke! But for thode of us who have been initiated by Charan Singh, took the Vows, read his Books, and did the best we could to meet him at our Third Eye, if he has not shown up, it is not because HE is not there, it is because WE are not there! But that does not mean we can not reach there, if we remain in our bodies long enough to see his Radiant Form manifest inside. He comes as " A Thief in the Night" as the Bible says! I have already said more about inner experiences than the Masters allow, but Ego is the main reason Satsangis are told to keep their innet experiences to them selves. Haven reached 75 and being a Recluse, most likely living my last yeRs of my life, I most likely never meet any readers here in person, and am not writing books to sell as David Lane does, so I will share one last inner experience here rather then selfishly take this secret to my grave unshared. Exers and Skeptics msy reject it, of course, but I have no other reason to share it other than to install Faith in to those who have given up on the Path and hope it might motivate them to not give up but to hold on to the Chain behind Charan's Bulldozer. Here is a fairly recent ecperience within the last year.
I was about an hour and a half in to my morning meditation. I had passed thru the Light areas, which I usually do in 20-30 minutes, then passed quickly thru the visual dream scape areas, to rest in the Void, or Samadhi where I usually end up after about an hour in to meditation. That time, with out warning, Charan Singh appeared in full body, looking just about as he did in his later years. He was clothed the same, and he was standing up right beside me, 6 inches away, so I must have been standing also. Of course, I was shocked, and surprised. He had never once ever spoken audibly to me before, in all the years I had seen him inside. But this time, he looked right at me and said, in his very same accent, ..."Brother, your body needs Asprin!" Not a very spiritual message to receive from your Master from Sach Khand, huh? The back ground was, my Doctor had put me on one 81 MG Asprin daily when I was 60 years old, and I had taken it daily for 10 years, but quit taking it at 70 because it is a blood thinner and was making me bleed. I answered Charan, telling him my story why I had quit taking Aspirin. In fact, I had long ago forgotten about Asprin, and never intended to take it again. I told Charan that it made me bleed, but he answered,..."Brother, your body needs Asprin. Just use less if it make you bleed. While he was saying this, he had his left hand on my right shoulder! He was a little shorter than me, as I was looking down at him a couple of inches. I then was ready to unleash a barrage of questions on him, when he vaporized, and disappeared? I loved that he addressed me as " Brother", as he always addressed males. So, it appears he has not yet carried all of his Marked Sheep to Sach Khand Yet. When Charan appeared to me last time, I thought it was to tell me my time in this body is almost finished, but it appears the warning was to keep me in the body awhile longer. I had been experiencing chest pains, which subsided as soon as I returned to my Asprin a day.

Btw Jim when you talk to Pedro about pseudo moniker and past an so...
...It is normal for people to have avatars on internet it has nothing to do with past drugs wrong deeds or so....it is normal.peace

After life is not correct

We ever are

When we wish, . . we will remember


It never fails to amaze me how when a humanitarian is ceaselessly striving to alleviate suffering in this world and has long list of accomplishments some jerk of the first magnitude starts hurling accusations against him . The former is striving all the time to work for good . Inthsi cass anti global warming , anti women oppression, disaster relief , organ donation education , feeding the masses , sheltering the masses, provideingfree hospitals to the masses , giving free lectures and spiritual instruction and the later spending his whole life trying to destroy him with slander and accusations .

I know that I have been a guest at Dera 20 times and have never been charges a penny fro my room or food or instruction . I have never done any labor for the same . I just meditate , eat and sleep the whole time andwhenI need dental or medical work I get it free . Yet jerks of the first magnitude like you say he's running a business.

"a disciple who slanders a saint will not be forgiven from him such conduct is intolerable ." Sar Bachan

Hi Robert
You quoted Sar Bachan out of context.

Every disciple is guaranteed salvation.

Everyone is forgiven.

We just make it harder or easier on ourselves.

I don't think anyone should be afraid to embrace a ctitical, even scientific perspective. It's all part of our journey

This creation has a lot of suffering in it, and ultimately only One is responsible.

When the defects come to light you don't blame the machine.

You blame, rightly, its designer and manufacturer. Very healthy.

If you have to make excuses for Matter or anyone, for the fraudulent loans, for the big money secrecy, for the special deals, then you've lost the entire point of the path. And then you have to hide or bury all that.

Let it all hang out. Let Master own it.

He's a big boy.

No one has a higher or lower place when it comes to God. All the creation has to offer is fully packaged in each of us.

So there is never an issue with forgiveness.

The moment you ask for it, He gives it. It's His job. He's a professional at it.

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