A Sant Mat follower returns to Jesus (and wants to hear from others who have done this)

Here's a message I got from someone who tried to follow both Sant Mat and Christianity. After developing doubts about the Science of Spirituality branch of Sant Mat (led by guru Rajinder Singh), she returned to her faith in Jesus.

Below the woman says, "If anyone has any information about Science of the Soul that is not commonly known or discussed, I would be interested in hearing their stories. Especially from those that have chosen to leave the path for Christianity."

Even if this doesn't describe you, the woman is interested in comments -- whether positive or negative -- from anyone who reads her story. Here it is:

I have been following the posts about Science of the Soul and Radhasoami at this website for a few months trying to glean information about aspects of Sant Mat that are not discussed in Satsang. I was initiated by Darshan Singh in the early 80s and was a devoted follower for many years---but after time I started having niggling doubts which caused me great anguish and soul searching.

I was a Christian before I started following Sant Mat, and for a time, I tried to follow both paths, as Sant Mat always stresses that it is not a religion, but a scientific method for experiencing God. I found this to be totally unrealistic, and one day I found myself weeping because I thought I would have to abandon my first love which was Jesus.

People on the Path had told me that Jesus was a "lesser" Master, and certainly was of absolutely no use in this lifetime due to the need for a living Master. I can't remember when I was more depressed.

Finally I read Sar Bachan, and that book so appalled me, that I began to slowly disentangle myself from Sant Mat. This was difficult as my husband was a group leader, and was dismayed by my increasing doubts about the Path. I found that I could not live without faith in Jesus Christ, and became more and more depressed. Finally, I made the break and left Sant Mat, and returned to my faith in Jesus.

Do I think Jesus is the ONLY way?---I put that thought on the shelf of "things-I-leave-to-God-to-sort", but given the number of holy people in other paths, I have a hard time believing that.

One of the minor things that began to trouble me about Science of Spirituality, was the extravagant wealth of the Master (Rajinder Singh.) Although the preaching is about letting go of material things and focusing on the spiritual, he was living in a mansion, driving expensive cars, and draping his wife in diamonds, while many of his followers suffer in want.

Followers rationalize that he earned this money, but why is he living such a blatantly materialistic life style while espousing non-materialism? I heard him once say that one did not need to worry about trashing the environment, because the quicker it was destroyed, the sooner the cycle of births and deaths could end, and the Golden Age could be ushered in (this is NOT an exact quote, but the gist of what was said during Satsang.)

There seems to be a rationalization for any behavior or comment that is uncomfortable, and this troubles me. It also appears that Rajinder's son is slated to become the next Master which goes against Kirpal's own words that the mastership cannot be inherited. As of now, the succession has gone from Kirpal to his son, to his grandson, and perhaps in the future his great-grandson.

If anyone has any information about Science of the Soul that is not commonly known or discussed, I would be interested in hearing their stories. Especially from those that have chosen to leave the path for Christianity.

I still have a great love and respect for the followers of Sant Mat (my husband is still very devoted, but has reluctantly come to terms with my change of heart), but I wonder how honest they are about their "inner experiences." I never had any that were anything spectacular (although the few ones I had were Christian in nature), but perhaps that is the reason for all the secrecy?

Oh, and the teachings about chastity, even in marriage. They nearly ruined my relationship with my husband. How can they be healthy.

Anyway, I welcome any comments, positive or negative. I have found my home with Jesus. I am not "religious', but merely want to follow Christ and surrender all to Him. As far as what others want to do, I leave all that in God's hands. Those hands are compassionate and loving.

Comments

[Brian Hines]

Well, I admire you for seeing through the B.S. of the Sant Mat guru business. It is indeed hypocritical when gurus preach detachment from worldly wealth to their followers, then devote themselves to amassing lots of money. (This is happening also in the Radha Soami Satsang Beas branch of Sant Mat, which is led by guru Gurinder Singh.)

But I'm wondering if the reason you have such faith in Jesus is because he isn't alive. All we have are stories about him via the Bible. And those lack historical veracity. So naturally Jesus comes across as a wonderful guy. Anyone would, if the only information we have about him/her comes from people who worshipped that individual.

My niece, a devoted Christian, once told me that she feels the presence of Jesus with her. I don't doubt that. Followers of gurus often say the same thing. However, I strongly suspect that what my niece feels emanates from her own mind/brain. Meaning, she has embraced an appealing story about Jesus which now plays a large role in her daily psychological life. Kind of like a child having an imaginary friend.

Still, my attitude toward beliefs and religion basically is "Whatever works for you." With an emphasis on the YOU. Meaning, religiosity only bothers me when people try to push their beliefs onto others. There's rarely any harm in someone believing something that simply makes him/her feel better. Life is tough. We all need supports to get through the days, weeks, months, and years.

I'm curious: have you had any experiences that make you confident that Jesus is real? Apparently one reason you left Sant Mat was a lack of promised inner mystical experiences. So I'm wondering if your faith in Jesus is based on anything other than what we could call "a faith in faith." In other words, a feeling that your faith in Jesus is justified, because it makes you feel good.

There's nothing wrong with feeling good. But feeling good is different from what exists in objective reality.

[Sparrow]

Hi Brian---thank you for the comment. I have always had a yearning for God, and yes, I have had experiences with Christianity, but they are more of a lifestyle/attitude change than actual mystical experiences (though I had visions of the cross and a Christian saint while I was doing simran once.) It's hard to put into words what following Jesus is like. One experience that stands out was suddenly having the overwhelming sense of God's love for ME. This was many years ago, so it is difficult to recapture the amazing sense of Grace and Love that I felt. I remember that all my fear of God, all worry about punishment, all concern about having to WORK to earn God's favor disappeared. Now, that first amazing "jolt" of feeling dissipated after a few weeks, and I made the mistake of trying to recapture it by my own efforts. I quickly fell back into trying to earn God's love.
Fast forward to post-Sant Mat, and the decision to return to Christ. Since then my life has taken on a renewed sense of peace, trust, abandonment, and joy. Basically, I told Jesus that I simply wanted to turn over every aspect of my life to him, and I did. Since that time, I have experienced a happiness and inner peace that really does "passeth understanding." Could it all be "brain stuff?" I suppose it could be. I don't think it is, but I could be wrong. I hope not, and I live my life with the feeling that it is so much more than we can comprehend with our small brain. My strong feeling is that Jesus never left me, allowed me to wander away, and then welcomed me back into his waiting arms. Belief is a hard thing to explain, and cannot be proven. I just know that following Jesus gives me much more peace and joy than following Sant Mat.
Truly, I think I was initially attracted to Sant Mat because of the promises of inner experiences. Since I was so hungry for PROOF, this seemed like THE answer. I didn't have any experience when I was initiated, and even went up to the guru to ask him why, but he left before I could talk to him. Later on I did ask him about my lack of experience, and he told me just to keep practicing. But why the promise of immediate experience?
I don't know if I answered your questions Brian, but thank you for your comments and interest. I wish you all the best, and that you find a way that works for you. All I know is that I jumped off the cliff of trust and belief in Jesus, not knowing where I would land, and I landed right in his arms.

[david r]

Naturally people are skeptical of other people's inner experiences of a religious nature and will usually put it down to a brain based phenomena only. The implication is that the belief the person has caused the experience. But this is only partially true in my opinion, because people have spontaneous mystical experiences that have nothing to do with their beliefs. Not to mention the potential existence of anything of a supernatural nature that exists objectively and not just in people's heads (don't bother to ask me for evidence for any such things. I am simply not interested in proving anything to anybody).

I have had experiences of Jesus too, quite recently that were singular in nature and completely different to any meditation experiences I had in the past when I meditated for over 10 years. They were not creations of my beliefs because of the nature of the experiences - which is very difficult to put into words.

But I can say this - the existence of so many sects, cults, denominations, religions etc - is bothersome and makes little sense to me.

[manjit]

Hi Sparrow - thanks for sharing, I thought your recollections & feelings quite genuine & touching - it was a nice & interesting read!

I have no association with Rajinder, but used to follow the teachings of Gurinder at RSSB some 17 years ago.

Just FYI, in RSSB from the time of Charan Singh and onwards, Jesus Christ is afforded the same "holy status" as all other highest level "satgurus". However, pre Charan - Sawan Singh, who as you probably know was also the guru of Kirpal who was Darshan's father/guru, probably did believe that Jesus was a "lower level guru" judging by what I have read.

Imo, at the end of the day, Radhasoami is just another religious belief. Just another "form" or appearance in the world through which we can express our inner impulses & needs. Like all other religions, imo, it has no monopoly on the "truth" or access to the "divine", whatever they may be. Also, like all other religions, it contains silliness in it's teachings, potential dangers, judgement of other "paths" or beliefs, worldly ambitions, and leaders who live in "extravagant wealth" :)

As an outsider I agree with you about Rajinder's display of wealth, and how he "markets" the RS teachings - in my very personal opinion, this is not genuine "spirituality", book signings at Borders and luxury cruises with auctions of his belongings? This all seems very worldly & materialistic to me personally. And in my experience, materialism of any sort is anathema to any kind of genuine "progress" on a spiritual path.

And I am shocked at what you said he says about us "trashing the environment" - quite shocking if that is an accurate representation!

And, to be fair, his main "rival" in Radhasoami gurudom, Gurinder Singh of Beas is allegedly a billionaire who's wealth is made up in the greater part of money he made through a company that allegedly sold defective medicine to poor Africans because, well, who cares about poor Africans (allegedly) !!

I do not feel, personally, these are the actions or behaviours of the person they and their organisations are claiming them to be - Lords of the Entire Universe, Sons of Gods etc.

As Jesus is said to have said

"22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[c] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[d] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
Matthew, Chapter 6

Now - this is may be a little extreme for the vast majority of society. This is probably why, whilst Jesus was alive, that he only had a couple of dozen followers! But aren't the "Satgurus" meant to be exemplars of this ideal, disconnected from materialism and wealth? Are there ANY other "satgurus" or "sants" - (which I am inclined to believe Jesus Christ was no more or less one of than, say, Guru Nanak or Kabir or Rumi - how can I really know - I don't even know what a "Sant" is let alone how we could possibly compare them!) - are there any other "sants" in history who have been billionaires, driving around in luxury cars like Porsches saying "to hell with the environment, roll on destruction!", going on luxury "satsang" cruises etc etc?

Not a single one - the gurus of today are truely blessed! (the only possible connection I can see is the solitary case of Raja Janak, but that is probably a mythical story, I don't believe he was actually a "satguru", and the specific circumstances of his wealth are different from those of today's prosperous gurus. Every other "sant" historically has been pretty poor. It is almost the definition of a "sant", they are after all the meant to be symbols of anti-materiality!

Radhasoami became just like any other religion a long time ago, imo - there is no sense of the "liminal" in these organisations any more, it is very much grounded in the materialistic.

Historic accuracy wise, having studied both Jesus and the various gnostic and mystic groups of his time, I don't believe anyone today is in a position to say he was any "less" of a guru than the "sants" of RS - the practice and theologies seem to me to be intimately connected - I think Charan Singh was right to afford Jesus the same "level" as other RS "sants", he must have noticed his teachings were almost indistinguishable from RS teachings, RS is after all merely an evolution of the same system of thought.

How Sawan and Kirpal/Darshan/Rajinder's lineage apparently perceive Jesus may be down to a whole factor of imaginative and fictional reasons.

For example, Kirpal's lineage has created, seemingly out of thin air, a connection between the 10th Sikh Guru Gobind Singh, and Soamiji's guru Tulsi and called this fictional character "Ratnagar Rao". Kirpal apparently believed in this theory, which as far as I'm aware not a single other person or expert on Sikh history has any inkling of evidence for, it is a completely new theory that only Kirpal "knew" about. The question is, how does he "know" about this person "Ratnagar Rao" that nobody else does? It has been suggested, and I find it a convincing suggestion based purely on what I've read from Kirpal, that he experienced this "reality" in his "inner experiences". The upshot becomes - as any reasonable person would agree, the theory of "Ratnagar Rao" is ridiculous and absurd and patently untrue - to what extent can we trust the narrative that comes out of these "inner experiences"? How the hell can we trust Sawan or Kirpal's "experience" of meeting Jesus on the "lower inner levels"?

This is all pure fantasy!

I say this as somebody who has spent decades easily slipping in and out of various kinds of "realities"! It is absurd to take these narratives literally!

Anyway, gone on long enough and deviated from your point.

Basically, I think the "divine" manifests in whatever way or form that is appropriate for all of us. In the Sikh holy book, there is a story of "dhana bhagat", which translates as the "pebble saint". As a very young child, before I was even capable of comprehending the politics of religion and "spiritual" organisations, I was absolutely fascinated by this story. I would ask my mum to tell me it again and again, and as soon as I could read I would read it for myself many times.

The story goes (from memory, it has probably been 30 years since I've read this!) that dhana bhagat was a very simple man. One day he overheard some preachers saying "God can be found even in a stone". Hearing this he went away and found a stone, and he proceeded to prostrate, pray, weep and beg this stone to show it's godly face! For day after day he would say "but they say God can be found even in a stone, why don't you show yourself to me! Just show me one glimpse of your face". He wept like this for days on end.

After a while of this, eventually dhana bhagat was shown a glimpse of the divine, and then more! He became known as a great sant, and was then named "dhana bhagat" the saint of the pebble.

This is a story recounted in the Sikh Granth Sahib, a book which is strongly influential in Radhasoami teachings. Dhana Bhagat is afforded the status of a Sant in it.

The moral of the story is, the teaching behind it, is that it is our desire, devotion, focus, sincerity etc which connects each and every one of us to the "divine". There are no intermediaries between us and "god" or whatever, the connection we all have to the divine is far more immediate and intimate than that!

I understood this as a child - at which point did it all become so complicated and about this religion or that religion, this guru or that guru?

These are all worldly creations imo!

[x]

I am not "religious', but merely want to follow Christ and surrender all to Him.

Huh?

[Bob]

The woman who wrote this article to Brian might appreciate the works of Fr. Thomas Keating and Fr. Richard Rohr, both whom emphasized the contemplative aspect of the Christian Path. Centering Prayer may be a good fit for her.

[david r]

Bob,

Why would meditation be good for anybody? And what is the difference between a born again Christian and a meditator mystic?

[Jen]

Programming. Software downloaded when we are conceived or when we take birth. Some people have the Jesus program. I was more attracted to a living Master rather than what I personally see as an artificial construct, a mythological being. This programming could also be called karma, bringing over experiences from previous lives - if reincarnation and karma does exist, which I now doubt.

Also imagination plays a huge role in our individual experiences on this planet. Some people see UFOs, some speak to aliens and visit other planets, some see visions of saints, angels... whatever... and their experiences are very real to them. Others experience the inner planes during meditation. How to prove this is not just the mind and the brain running certain programs?

"The computational theory of mind holds that the mind is a computation that arises from the brain acting as a computing machine. The theory can be elaborated in many ways, the most popular of which is that the brain is a computer and the mind is the result of the program that the brain runs."

[777]

I don't think Sparrow has received some help here.
I answered her earlier
from France :)

I would search for the word LOVE and it's hardly used, . . .
though God seems to be LOVE
The russian Pilgrim about the Jesus Prayer might help you
Please know that there are so many fake gurus
for so many fake seekers

You will go where your heart already is, daughter

Radha Soami

777
ps
I was < 50 years, each second, sprinkled with Charan JI's Love
and so are millions, often illiterate but with the inner thristy

[Bob]

David R. - I've been meditating almost daily since I was 21 years old (1974) and it has provided me with enormous benefits. I'm sure I'm not alone here. Regarding the difference between a born-again Christian and a mystic - well I suggest doing some research on your own - maybe read Thomas Keating or Richard Rohr and you'll see the difference for yourself.

[Sparrow]

I'm thrilled to bits by all these comments! Thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond. To Manjit: I was in Rajinder Singh's audience when a woman asked him how we should respond to the worldwide polluting of the environment, and he basically said that it shouldn't overly concern us because the faster the species of the world died off, the nearer we would be to ultimate union with God. Now---I heard this years and years ago, so I can't quote him perfectly (I wish I had written it down, because I do remember many in the audience were a little puzzled by this response), but that was basically the meaning he was trying to convey. And I liked your story of the Pebble Saint. When my Christian friends try to convince me that Jesus is the only way, I think of all the truly holy people in the world, or just plain GOOD people, and I can't envision an all-loving God abandoning them. As a mother, even if my child were to behave in the most heinous of ways, I would never reject them, and would always long for them to come back to me.

David---I would be interested in hearing about your experience with Jesus, if you would like to share it.

When I think about why I returned to Jesus, I do think originally much of it had to do with my past relationship with Christianity, and having grown up in a Christian household. But what keeps me here is that Jesus's "yoke is light", and I have experienced more joy and love and light with Jesus than I ever did when I tried to follow Sant Mat. If you find your life is more fulfilling and freeing after you leave one path and return to another, then you have to believe that the alternate path is the right one for you. That is a convoluted way of saying Jesus works for me, and Sant Mat didn't.

Thank you to those that suggested alternative meditation techniques. I am a bit gun shy of any strict meditation regime, but I do recite the Jesus Prayer off and on.

Oh, and X? By not religious, I mean I don't follow any specific denomination (although when I do attend church I go to a Catholic church), but simply try to stay close to Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

Thanks again for all these thought provoking posts. I feel very blessed that anyone would take the time to "talk" to me about all this.

[Sparrow]

In my previous post I forgot to identify the guru who talked about the environment---it was Rajinder Singh.

[x]

By not religious, I mean I don't follow any specific denomination (although when I do attend church I go to a Catholic church), but simply try to stay close to Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

The definition of "religious" is: having or showing belief in God or a deity.

You are religious, Sparrow

[Sparrow]

O.K. X, I'm religious. By the way, I think I mentioned in my first post that it was Sar Bachan that finally made me really question Sant Mat. I was mistaken--it was the Anurag Sagar, or Ocean of Bliss. Has anyone else read this? I am re-reading it to see what it was that so appalled me.

[Mechthild]

Sparrow --- Coincidentally, I am reading a book by Gerda Lerner "The Creation of Feminist Consciousness" from the Middle Ages to Eighteen-seventy. I believe you might find the chapter: "The Way of the Mystics" a welcome confirmation. The history of female Christian mystics is much richer and extensive than I ever imagined.

[Sparrow]

Hi Brian---I don't know what category this post would be under, but it is of a sensitive nature. One of the core beliefs of Sant Mat as I understood it was the prohibition of sex in all forms, even in marriage (except when wanting one or two children.) This led to a great deal of strife in my marriage, which even after almost 34 years of marriage is still an issue. I find it to be one of the most destructive teachings in Sant Mat. I would love to hear about other followers (current and past) thoughts about this. You can edit this post as you wish. Thank you for allowing me to process my thoughts on your website. One of my biggest griefs is having nobody to talk to about these things.

[gender bending]

Don't think there was any prohibition on (marital) sex in Bea's lineage. But the old-time gurus (such as Great Master) seemed much more reserved and puritanical. Celibacy (Bramacharya) was explained as a process, a gradual detachment from Kam (lust) as attachment to Nam (Shabd) One just naturally left sex behind as ones spiritual, interior focus increased. With Charan Singh in the books I believe it was stated several times that if ones husband or wife still desired sex than one should share in that way to keep domestic harmony.

With the average age of the Western Sangat being about 80 years now, questions about sexuality do no come up as often (no pun intended). I bet ol' Gurinder wishes that just marital sex was discussed, like in the good old days. Heck, now he gets hammered with questions about gay sex and gay marriage.

[777]

Hi Sparrow
Your Guru was il informed

The M A I N principle of Sant Mat
is that we cannot subdue the mind an attachments cannot be subdued
That the mind can only hold its grip
and lessens when something nicer is offered
It easily exchanges a bicycle for a Ferrari, even for a scooter

This is the Greatness of the Real Saints : in one form or another they offer you
countless helps , a little bit of Shabd, a sudden flash of Light when you need it
the power of the 5 words as a constant thread
I don't even speak about meditations
Just in normal life
But, everything is based on Love
HE must give that

When we were young and waiting for initiation we did it
many times a day and later even in Beas and the Master gave His Beautiful Darshan
and everything around it without hesitation

Now I suddenly understand the the french Sangat some 30 years ago
they were all "initiated" by kirpal.
About 60 persons were next initiated by Charan and SO HAPPY . . . . .

It's sad to fall in the hands of fakes
Read some of my comments here and you know what I mean
you can just collect by googling
Then tell your husband - this was really sad sad unnecessary (?) :-) karma

777

[Sparrow]

Thank you gender bending and 777 for your comments. I think the prohibition of sex is definitely much less emphasized by the newer gurus of Sant Mat. If you read books written by Kirpal, or read the question and answer literature from his time and from Darshan Singh's time, there was definitely a sense that sex would hurt your meditations, and there fore your advancement on the path. I remember a man telling Master Darshan at a public talk that he didn't think he could just quit having sex, so Master asked him to have the least amount he could, and also told him that anyone who had sex more than once a week was an animal.

I remember lots of talk along the lines of "as you progress spiritually, sexual needs will fall away...", but why SHOULD it fall away? WHY is sex bad for a spiritual life? I certainly don't advocate a promiscuous lifestyle where you jump in and out of bed with countless partners, but if you have a healthy sex life in marriage, why should that be damaging? I now think that intimacy of this kind, the kind that draws two people closer together, actually ENHANCES ones spiritual life.

[manjit]

Hi Sparrow!

The Anurag Sagar was a disturbing read to me too when I read it as a really immersed and full "believer" some 20 years ago. RSSB has no Anurag Sagar translation, but at the Beas library I came across what I think, not sure at all, an Ajaib Singh version (another Kirpal off-shoot guru). It was definitely one of the Kirpal lineage. Anyway, I found it quite, quite medieval, backward and lacking in any kind of sophistication whatsoever.

Worryingly, having studied the history of RS gurus, it came to my notice this book was almost handed "down" or around from RS guru to perspective RS guru almost as if it was an "instructional manual" to the universe.

So much for "divine revelation".

Also quite worryingly, this book is almost CERTAINLY attributed incorrectly, without question in RS circles, to Kabir Sahib the famous 15th century Indian mystic. There is a whole host of historical reasons to dispute this - but most plainly of all, one just has to read the Bijak or Kabir, or the poems in the Granth Sahib - the mind of those is not contained in the mind of whoever wrote the rather "primitive" Anurag Sagar. (although some, rare, people also question the authenticity of Bijay, SGGS poems etc too.....but they are definitely dated much earlier than AS (Anurag Sagar).

Dear 777 - isn't "love" implicit in the story of dhana bhagat?

You also mention several times "fake gurus", implying, quite clearly, you mean that to refer to Rajinder, but certainly not the "Greatness of The Real Saints" of Beas?

Isn't this the point though, sir/madam - that what is in YOUR eyes is not necessarily in the eyes of another? This is just the STORY you're telling yourself - it does not necessarily apply to anyone else in the real world!

Does one group have exclusive access to genuine "inner" experiences and the other not (shhh, you should know, btw, that almost ALL Kirpal lineage followers believe it is Beas people who don't have inner experiences!)? Does not their guru's presence cause the "shabd" to resound in their presence?

Or perhaps it is Rajinder's lavish lifestyle?

But I wonder, has he ever asked any of his disciples to smuggle luxury goods in and out of countries for him, like Charan Singh did?

I mean, as rich as Rajinder no doubt is, does it compare to the hundreds of millions of dollars Gurinder has hoarded up in the midst of poverty? I've seen him being driven around in fully leather interior bentleys on dozens of occassions in the UK! What were the ethical practices of the company he made those hundreds of millions of dollars from?

How do you distinguish a "True Saint" from a "poor fake"?

Please let me know - I'm genuinely interested?

[Jim Sutherland]

I have referenced Allan Chronshaw, who claims to be "The Brother of Jesus" as well as Thomas Payne here a number of times. He is an interesting Character, of which, I have never witnessed him shying away from ANY question from ANY one, with out giving them answers that takes them a day just to read, much less ponder on. If you are getting bored debating here and on rss site, Manijt, and feel a need to hone your debating skills more sharply, I challenge you to give Allan Chronshaw a visit, and ask him some of your seemingly unanswerable questions that no one has been able to help you with. Tell him Jim Sutherland sent you to test him. That alone will activate his Arsenal of past life characters he claims to be Holographically projected from, which he calls his "Higher Soul Self, or Being of Light."

http://brotherofyeshua.blogspot.com/2015/11/why-is-sexual-immorality-condemned-in.html

[777]

Manjit

As far as I have seen in the comments in this blog

Brian started this in a mindset of disgust towards Gurinder

He was then supported with all kinds of slander and that even came
from 2 people who had been given satsang for years
but lost their 'job' and were replaced and ego collapsed

Bu next I was so amazed that 95% commenters coming here with bitterness
came from all those un-holy successors and sub-grandson successors

When I say un-holy I meanno offense : I mean just without Sainthood
. it's rather human but has zero to do with Saints
and the Sound current

Also the power of money corrupt
but not with a real Unbelievable Saint like Gurinder - I am a Charan Initiate and I swear
that I see Gurinder
in the same beautiful Charan Cosmic Radiation of which I spoke long ago
He is Charan, and Sawan, and Jesus and Buddha and Melchisadech
and you will see that
I explained clearly what a Real Holy Saint Himself experiences ( also before )

So? I understand that sole satsangi which stayed waiting at the entrance of the brothel
when His Saint Master ( Tulsi ) was there in spite of all disciples leaving

Now I'm more and more observing
disciples from Groups who have nothing to do
with the Path of The Saints coming here and complaining
and you have to ask them 3 times ( not Sparrow) before
they admit that
or they don't but one sees clearly that something is missing

In my opinion they were never initiated at all

It's very easy to check following the rule
-No organized publicity, No Obliged Money to contribute , and Vegetarism
Personal richness has nothing to do - obscenity with that treasure : Yes

It's true
This is the first time I have mentioned th this Truth so clearly
and I don't regret
I had the 'tiny' intuition that I helped the Sparrow family immensly in the area of Love, Sound and Light

24 hours of Continues Jesus Prayer,
will do the Job

Of course I wish You, Manjit, Sparrow and Husband, Brian and His Authors
a 10-fold fountain of bliss than I ever had

777
ps you asked :
How do you distinguish a "True Saint" from a "poor fake"?

I referred 2 years ago to how I was paralysed - just by hearing the phrase "5 Holy Words" by telephone
In many cases people just fall in Love, - They can't help

If nothing helps , close your eyes and ask God to show Himself

[Sparrow]

Hi Manjit---Just a quick note to express my gratitude for your insights. I have wanted to discuss my thoughts about Sant Mat for a very long time, but in a respectful way. Most of the time when I bring up worrying subjects, I either get bitter rage from ex-satsangis, or from current satsangis angry shaming comments, or pitying comments. Since my husband is still a devout follower of Science of the Soul (The Kirpal, Darshan, Rajinder lineage), and I love and respect my husband, I don't feel like engaging in rants about Sant Mat. I DO want to explore subjects that were kind of verboten while I was a practicing Satsangi, and I feel that you fit the bill quite nicely here. Thank you! Oh, and the Anurag Sagar...I just reread it (there is a picture of Ajaib Singh on the back) and remembered once again what bothered me so much about it. If the universe is really set up that way, and God (Sat Purush) is really like that, then this life is one big cheat.

[Anja]

Hi Sparrow,

to make a long story very short: I'm also iniciated into the SantMat simran, but by another branch. Its "leader" is Baljit Singh. I practized the simran for one and a half year and then I discovered my real Guru: Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. I recieved my spiritual name from him, altough he was not alive anymore in his old form. Yadda-yadda-yadda...the simran is actually a Shiva mantra. But not an appropriate one for those who are raised christians. I stopped using the simran and started using a Krishna mantra instead before I recieved my name.

I met the "master" Baljit Singh and had "darshan" but it turned out he had darshan with me. That was before I recieved my name. That was very disturbing to acknockledge that he actually is the "needy" one and not me.

Now I hardly use any mantra anymore because I don't have to. Sometimes I use my currant mantra but just for fun. My currant mantra is given to me by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj by ways I can not explain here. Too long story.

You can e-mail me if you like. Ask Brian for my e-mail adress and then we can talk....talk straight.

I strongly recommend not to talk about your experiences anymore because some may sew doubt in you for having them. And...so called "inner experiences" mean nothing. What is relevant is: What you experience in the real world and how to interpret the signs and signals you will get when you use the right mantra.

The whole SantMat liniages are ...ehem...well...not connected to Guru Nanak anymore. Get yourself a good copy of his JapJi Sahib. That may help. And watch Bill Hicks on youtube. That may help also. Laughter is needed after all that jazz, I guess.

Kind regards and happy new year,
Anja

[Sparrow]

Thank you Anja for your kind post. I'm not sure I understand where you are currently with your spirituality, so perhaps if we email that would make it clearer. I'm not sure Brian will give out your email, so I will just go for it and post mine here: [email protected] I would love to talk to any followers, current or ex, who would like to talk about their experiences with the path in an honest and respectful manner. Oh, and I have come to agree with you Anja that inner experiences are not what really count; it's how your faith informs your life. In other words, are you more kind, helpful, patient, and loving because you follow a certain path? Does it bring you a peace that others notice? Feel free to contact me Anja.

[Anja]

Hi Sparrow,

well...it is hard to say where I currantely am with my "spirituality. I would say I'm not spiritual at all and I actually never was. I'm not raised as a christian. My parents both have been what you can call existentialists. So...no...I'm not spiritual. I have no idea what that term even refers to.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj once said, "for me spirituality is as dischardable as dish-water." And I completely agree with him.

How my faith informs my life? I'm not sure I understand that question.

But if you ask me if I'm more kind, helpful, patient and loving because I follow a path, then I can only say NO. Because I don't follow a path. I follow MY path. And my personality traits haven'd changed much since I received my spiritual (warrior) name.
I'm more amused than I was before. I find a lot of things funny and laught a lot. That's all.

And thank you for posting your e-mail adress. I don't think I have much to say about my experiences in SantMat. I've only been there for about 2 years. I posted my experiences on Rick Ross' cult education forum. It just took me two years to see what is going on there. But I don't consider it as a waste of time. I consider it as a very interesting experience that helped me to understand the mind-set of cult-members and cutl-leaders better.

Who is your favourite stand-up comedian, Sparrow?

Kind regards,
Anja

[Sparrow]

Hi Anja---Thank you for your reply. How different we are! I don't think I could imagine a life that didn't center around some kind of spirituality. I have many friends who do not follow any particular path, and that is fine with me. I was always uncomfortable when I was in my fundamentalist Christian phase with the teaching that anyone who didn't follow Jesus was going to Hell. I would question that, and my Christian friends would just say it's a mystery. It isn't a mystery to me; any God who would doom any one of his children to eternal punishment is not a God I care to know. I'm sure that despite our different outlooks on spirituality, we could be friends as I like to laugh too, and often laugh at things that are a bit naughty. LOL! I couldn't say who my favorite comedian is--who is yours?

When I talk about "how does your spirituality inform your life", I mean, what difference does it make in your day-to-day choices and lifestyle. For instance, does following Jesus make me a better person, a person who is loving, forgiving, kind, and gentle-spirited? Of course, I have many moments where I don't live up to this standard, but the general trajectory of my life heading in this direction. If following Jesus helps me live a life full of joy and love, then I am on the right path.

I have had many challenges in my life (as I am certain most people do.) I have struggled with life-long depression that waxes and wanes. It was much worse in my college years, and early twenties, and has since decreased substantially. I have a severely autistic, non-verbal son that was extremely volatile and took a great deal of energy to raise (he is currently in a supported living environment, but I visit almost every other day.) I have had various health issues ranging from thyroid problems, to arthritis, to severe daily headaches, to chronic fatigue syndrome (all of which are more or less under control), and now my husband is suffering from Meige Syndrome (google it; it's no fun,) but through it all, I have felt the presence and love of Jesus. When I was following Sant Mat, I felt much more burdened...if I didn't meditate, then I felt the reason my life was in chaos was all my fault. In other words, I felt I had to work for my "salvation." With Jesus, I just cast all my burdens at his feet, feel his loving arms around me, and have the strength to just carry on...sometimes with more joy than at other times. LOL!

I'm glad you only had two years in Sant Mat. I had about a solid 12 years when I exclusively followed the Path, and then tried to combine it with Catholicism for many more years. All I can say is it did NOT work for me, and I still have residual problems because of it.

I wish you the best, Anja. Have a wonderful New Year, and God bless you.

Sparrow

[Anja]

Hi Sparrow,

here is a list of my favourite stand-up comedians (the order in which they appear has no meaning):

1.) Bill Hicks
2.) Maria Bamford
3.) Eddy Izzard
4.) Louis C.K.
5.) Ricky Gervais
6.) The SantMat Gurus

I'm glad to hear that you have not lost your humor and that you keep going although you have lot's of health-issues to deal with. I had long periods of heavy depression in my life also. It is an appropriate reaction to the circumstance we find ourselfs in. But now I'm not depressed anymore. Now I exercise my righteous anger in "channelling" it into writing. Sometimes I think I'm an alien in this world. Alienated from a world in which there is no suffering. Alienated from a place where pure JOY is running the show. But I do my best to keep a stiff upper-lip.

Maybe posting your experiences with SantMat in Rick Ross' cult education forum could help you to get rid of the anger that comes with feeling betrayed by a path that only deals in supporting the "leaders" need for feeling superiour. To let it all out after having done all the things that have been required but nothing happend regarding self-knowledge. As far as I know there are not many on Ricks forum who come from SantMat and talk about it. But I haven'd been on that forum for some years, so I may not be propery informed.

SantMat means: The path of the saints. And the saints are NOT the ones who are sitting on a stage with a turban on their head who talk down to the crowd. The saints are the ones they are talking to.

I wish you and your family all the best and hope you enjoy the shows of my favourite comedians as much as I do.

Kind regards,
Anja

[david r]

"The guru business". Pretty much sums it up for me.

Bill Hicks was poison to my soul and mind. As are most of these kind of comedians.

Also, if you are channelling, Anja, it is extremely dangerous and you should stop immediately.

[Moi]

I am with Sant Baljit Singh....it's good to question...since Sant Kirpal Singh, there are a few Gurus. This is my question who is the rightful Guru????

[Anja]

Hi David,
thanks for your kind concerns about me "channelling". But what I wanted to say is that I send my righteous anger through the eye of a needle called: Comedy. I write comedies. I'm just expressing myself, dude. So...no worrys. And if Bill Hicks was poison for your soul, that might point to something I rather not discuss here in the open.

Hi Moi,
I don't even think Kirpal was a proper Guru. I also doubt Baba Sawan Singh was a "white" one. The Adi Grand gurus are the real deal in my humble opinion. All the SantMat stuff is rotten to the core all together. I only met one dude in SantMat who was self-realized. His name is Amando. He gave me what is called shaktipat...he transfered his energy to me and I'm thankfull for having met him.
I met a lot of very nice, kind, tender and funny people in SantMat. Unfortunately they all are caught up in the web of that kind of delusion. I wish they would grow up and go their own way and let life itself teach them. But who am I to know better what is their particular path. Some worship god in the form of being a slave. Not my cup of tea. I prefer to be friends with god. It's much more fun.
Personally I think that Baljit Singh also is caught up in the guru-role and is actually not very happy with it.

So...I think the whole SantMat branches are a scam. They only keep you away from engaging in the real world by telling you about inner light and inner sounds and satchkant and what not. I don't think we incarnated into this realm of existence for no good reason. Therefore we have the right to enjoy our life as much as possible under the law of AHIMSA (non-violence) and are the keeper of our fellow humans happiness and wellbeing also. Does anybody benefit from me being in samadhi all day long? I pretty much don't think so. Samadhi is good, right action is better.

Kind regards,
Anja

[Anja]

And since we're at it, I want to emphazise this:

Any religious or spiritual concept that does not lead to self-knowledge in let's say three years is a scam. It is fake and not worth to even engage in any longer. IF a certain tradition, what ever the tradition that may be, does not provide a proper means for self-knowledge for an INDIVIDUAL on a personal level, it is not religious but just another mind-fuck.

We have a body-mind right now and that is not nothing. We have the right, and the duty to be as happy as possible. And who ever is telling anybody that having a body-mind, right here, right now, at this particular time, is to be denied for the sake of ....the "real" life begins when we die, is what some traditions call sat-an.

Sat-an is a sanskrit term and it means: Sat = Truth, an = not or anti. So it means anti-truth and it is not some entity somewhere that is called evil or the dark force or Kal. It is a condition we all find ourself in. We live in anti-truth BECAUSE of religious concepts that don't deliver self-knowledge.

Why is that? Because it is not what they deal in in the first place. Religious concepts mean nothing unless they deliver. And they have to deliver in time. It should not take years and years of sadhana and seva and what not to get to know yourself. Why and what for would that be needed?

There is no such thing as karma in parabrahman. That means: Some don't have karmic bonds and dutys to perform here. Some are born pure. THAT is what is meant by Jesus Christ when he/she said, "become like a child." It does not mean to be childish or immature. I means: YOU ARE THAT already. No need to perform certain forms of meditation or seva or blaming yourself for not being good enough or what not. It means: Some are sinners by nature, by birth. And that is what karma refers to. They have the duty to make good what they messed up in former life-times. But some are here to just live a life and by doing so they do what they came for. Some are devoted mothers and fathers who care for their children and educate and love them. That is enough. More is not needed.

Kind regards,
Anja (Sri Mata (G)Jnani Maharaj)

[Sparrow]

Thanks again Anja for your comments. I am glad you have found a constructive and creative way to channel your anger and perhaps your other feelings as well. From reading these responses, and having private email chats with others (and I remain grateful for all the responses), I am coming to realize that my picking over my feelings about Sant Mat is very similar to picking an old scab. I seem to have this irresistible urge to go over the painful "stuff" of my days as a satsangi. Not that it was all that painful at the time; it just lead to beliefs and feelings that absolutely did not fit me, and caused me later pain and trouble. As I said to someone else, my consistent tendency is to not see the forest for the trees. I miss the beauty and simplicity of a relationship with God (through Jesus in my case) by examining minutely every aspect of all the different and often contradictory and confusing teachings of all the paths. It's like walking through a beautiful wooded area with my nose against the bark of the trees and missing the total impact of the complete forest. Does this make sense? So perhaps for ME, it is not healthy to keep obsessing over the past, and just enjoy this present where I feel close to God and just leave it there.

I did check out several ex-satsangi sites, but was put off by all the pornographic spam that is on those sites. Just another good reason to probably leave it all alone, and go forth to what fills me with joy.

I wish you all the best with your writing and your humor. God bless you!

Sparrow

[Anja]

Well....communication is only possible between equals. I forgot who said that. A dialog is something two people are having who are on the same level of understanding. Or at least not too far apart from each other.

How can we talk about...let's say Shakespeare's work when you have never even heard of him? Then we can't talk about his plays. I could tell you about it, but you would have to be willing and able to listen to me. If I would like to have a conversation about Shakespeare and you don't, then there is nothing we can do about it. If you force me to listen to you, talking about your passion for...let's say superman-comics, I might say, "nah...sorry...I'm not interested in that kinda thing."

What's my point? I think E. E. Cummings sums it up best:

'pity this busy monster, manunkind'

pity this busy monster, manunkind,

not. Progress is a comfortable disease:
your victim (death and life safely beyond)

plays with the bigness of his littleness
--- electrons deify one razorblade
into a mountainrange; lenses extend
unwish through curving wherewhen till unwish
returns on its unself.
A world of made
is not a world of born --- pity poor flesh

and trees, poor stars and stones, but never this
fine specimen of hypermagical

ultraomnipotence. We doctors know

a hopeless case if --- listen: there's a hell
of a good universe next door; let's go"

E. E. Cummings

And here one of the best jokes I ever heard. Louis C.K. talked about a comedy-show he went to years ago. It was a guy with a guitar. He sang the Otis Redding song like this: "Sitting on a cock 'cause I'm gay...."

My best wishes to all who appreciate the work of the great comedians, who are here for us to make us laugh. I'm grateful....dad,,,,

Kind regards,
Anja (Sri Mata (G)Jnani Maharaj)

[david r]

Anja,

I sincerely hope you are a really pretty buxom young woman with lots of fertile and fresh original points to make, because I don't date sexless female gurus.

Wait, why don't you give out your email address so I can tantalise you with my intellectual and sophisticated poetic almost omniscient and powerful rhetoric and absolutely ravishing handsome and fearful but wonderful words?

Would you mind if I tempted you into a potential relationship that was a platonic nightmare? Or is your underwear more kinky than your brain?

Then again, you could just give everybody your email address.

[Anja]

Dear David,

thanks for you're dating request, but I unfortunately have to dissapoint you regarding my age and my looks and also about my habits and neurotical behaviour.

I had plastic-surgery lately to remove my breasts. Because I was playing with them all day long at work and my boss was not amused about it. They have been too big for me anyway.

I also have an eating-disorder and borderline personality. Sometimes I steal cable and adapter at my local electronic store. I don't know why.

I have very hairy legs and some say I look as if I'm just sixty years old. I use lip-stick for eye-shadow and my underwear is pinkish. I like the tone of skin so my underwear looks af if I don't wear some.

Since I combine my meds with alcohol I feel much much better than I use to.

Still interested?

Kind regards,
Kinky Anja

[Sparrow]

Tsk-tsk David and Anja! Reign it in you two or I may have to send you to time-out! How did this conversation degenerate so quickly! Gracious! I can only hope the two of you are joking.

Peace!

Sparrow

[Anja]

I aslo collect empty wine-bottles and the telephone-numbers of cathlic devorse laywers.

Lately I bleached my hair. Ohh...well....just because I did not read the instructions...does that mean I can't sue the production-company of that product?

Sincerely,
Anja

[Neon]

But but but it does work, you need FOUR lifetimes though. Too bad none of us will be here to test that hypothesis :(

It's a great SCIENCE of the soul isn't it...

[Anja]

Seriously, herewith Brain is offically allowed to hand over my e-mail adress to anybody he thinks is interested in a conversation with me.

And yes, Sparrow, we indeed have been joking. What else could that possible have been?

I'm a little bit sad right now, because I just got the message that my parents dog is very sick and the doctors don't know what they can do for him. He's a golden retriever. Eight years old. Tomorrow I go to maybe see him the last time. He can not walk anymore. He got x-rayed and was in the tube and everything, but the doctors can't find the exact cause for his illness. My parents are both crying. Donald is his name. He wants to go for a walk but after a few steps his Hinterbeine brake down and he can't walk anymore. He is ambarrassed for having to pie and shit in the house, my moms says.

So...I don't think I will post here any longer because I'm sad now. And in my sadness I wanna be alone. My mom also called all the neigbours to not come around. It would make Donald wanna stand up but he can't anymore.

That's not a joke and not something I just made up.

I hope Donald survives. But if not, he will leave as the most cute, funny and brave dog I ever met.

Brain, thanks for posting my comments, although they might not have been too PC.

Jah war!

Anja

[david r]

LOL

Perhaps you could let Donald watch Bill Hicks. It might cheer him up.

[troll detector]

Anja, sorry about the dog and your sadness but hey dude you said you are Satan. Dark side not working out for you? but you can still enjoy posting bs

[Brian Hines]

Comments are getting overly off-topic on this post. A bit of joking around is fine, but I'm going to stop approving off-topic comments from now on.

[Sparrow]

Thanks Brian. I'm glad you will be monitoring future posts to this thread. Although if it's true that Anja's parents' dog is sick, I am indeed sorry. Thanks again for posting my thoughts about Sant Mat. I think it is best if I just quit picking through the ashes of the past, and move on to my happier time as a follower of Jesus. I'll be checking in on your site from time to time, because it IS very interesting, and there seems to be nothing out there like it. God bless you on your journey.

[Gulam-e-Baadshah]

Please excuse this lengthy post...I may never post again, so let me get this off my chest...

I believe I have a lot to add to this interesting thread. And since my wife is currently visiting friends/relatives in NYC I will attempt to share my own experiences on this so-called Sant Mat since many of you have so generously done already.

Unlike most of you (except Manjit) I am of Indian origin. I came to this country in the mid 70s. But unlike Manjit I am not of Punjabi origin (most Indian Satsanghis are of Punjabi origin). In fact, I was highly westernized while living in India (by Indian standards), and had been through the whole drug scene/life meaning search/music, etc. that engrossed so many here in the west, but while living in India, well before I arrived here. In many ways I was more like a westerner than most of the Punjabi or near-Punjabi Indians following the Sant Mat paths here in the U.S. and elsewhere.

My search started I think when I experienced my mother die from a freak accident right before my eyes. I was only 14. I have 3 siblings and they were not affected the same way as I. I began questioning the meaning of life, went through the drug/western life/hippie thing in India in the early 70s !!! I was in the Indian Institute of Technology, the same one as Rajinder Singh (9 yrs my senior). For those of you who do not know, getting into IIT, especially the top 20%, is tougher than getting admitted to the top engg. schools in the U.S. like MIT, CalTech, etc. I say this because although I was considered smart (academic-wise) I hardly attended classes the first 3 years at IIT, busy getting smashed and guiding the American and western hippies passing through India at that time. By my 4th year I begun to wake up and take more responsibility of myself. Although I had shitty grades (since I rarely attended classes), I managed to get admission to a reasonable U.S. engineering school, but without any financial aid (unusual for most Indians then). But I was in the process of cleaning myself up, doing yoga, attending meditation sittings around campus (midwest), attending sufi lectures, buddhist meditations, you name it, I excelled at school and eventually got a Ph.D. and a faculty position in engg . In 1977, I came across Kirpal Singh's teachings/books (a seeker became my roommate accidentally). I had already read quite a few books on mysticism by then, mostly eastern, Vivekananda, Sufi literature, Rajnish, Meher Baba, but I had read nothing like Kirpal's writings. I was mesmerized by the depth and clarity of the writings, the unusually scientific logic. I attended a few Satsangs and asked for long-distance initiation from the master in 1978. The master turned out to be Darshan Singh who was In India and I was here in the U.S. I was not overly impressed at first by Darshan Singh, as a Master. No personality like Kripal Singh. In fact, an unimpressive physical personality. But a very humble and simple man with high thoughts. However, being of a scientific mind (I suppose) I was not gullible enough to experience anything out of the ordinary during or after initiation. The group leader at that time (Olga Donnenburg of Chicago) gave me several sittings seeing I had no clear experience, all to no avail. Then the Satsang started and that was it. At the Satsang I met Rajinder. He and his wife were gracious enough to give me a ride to the Amtrak station soon after. I sat between them in their ordinary, large American car...1978...The teachings are what kept me going. I thought I had never seen such lucid explanations of the regions beyond this life. And the teachings were practical, not rigid. First I was impressed with Kirpal's many books, then Kabir's teachings, then many others, Sufis, Paul Twitchell, etc. Fascinating stuff. Also, no one was forced to do anything, not even with the issue of sex, vegetarianism, etc. But I was always suspect about this son following the father thing. In 1979, I met Darshan on his first U.S. tour. First I was not impressed at all, but then I thought, who am I to be impressed any way, plus no money had exchanged hands. It was free. No one forced my hand. A bit tough though for someone like me, with my brothers settled here and behaving like normal party-going guys, drinking, eating meat, etc. But then I was always one-of-a-kind, so my brothers thought this was just another passing phase. They had seen me as a wild western hippie living in India, now a wannabe Indian Saint living in the west !!!

I will try to keep this short, although I could probably write several books on my whole life's unusual experiences. I got married traditional South Indian style in Bangalore in 1980, I was so head strong that I immediately took my young bride to New Delhi to see my Master just 2 or 3 days after our wedding !!! I was a hard nut to crack and my father knew me as such. I was cashing in on the soft corner he still had for me at that time as I was still the smartest one in his family (academic-wise) and I had helped him tremendously doing with household chores when my mom passed away unexpectedly, leaving the care of my two younger siblings, 5 and 12 at my mom's passing, mostly in my care (my elder bro was out of the house by then). I asked Master Darshan to initiate my new young wife also but he was gracious and told me to give her more time, so she was initiated a year or two later (under Olga with similar lack of clear experience).

We tried to follow the path assiduously till Darshan's passing away in 1989. We had just moved to Florida. When I heard Rajinder was the next master I at first could not believe it. I knew him somewhat while we lived in the midwest, but he never impressed me as being Master material. Courteous, humble perhaps, nice person. Not some radiant master like personality. I returned home (which was now Florida) and both my wife and I began to veer off the Satsanghi lifestyle (whatever that means). We loved to meditate from time to time (still do), but mainly for scientific reasons, and to maintain our sanity in this crazy world.

The bottom line - My wife and I are also not very impressed with all this materialstic signs that seemed to have gained importance with Rajinder and his wife. Too much makeup, gaudy dresses with jewelry, etc., etc. Gaudy wedding of daughter. Something beyond my little comprehension. The main thing for me, being of a scientific bent of mind (like many here) I always felt that if one meditated and had all that experience then one's outer behavior should reflect this. Not much luck with us two !!! In fact, we found most Sat Sanghis to be quite cuckoo, with their feet not planted firmly on the ground. Many, sorry to say, have no personalities, including the Indian-origin ones living here. The western ones generally came across as societal misfits. I am talking about here in the west and not necessarily in India, Of course, India, which I know better than most Indians, is another story, There, only families already exposed to this Sant Mat tradition, whichever one, go to these masters. You would rarely find someone of my background for example following this path in India. A very socially related thing. The Beas scene, I believe, is even worse. At least Kirpal tried to explain everything scientifically, and to a large extent, Darshan being a mystic urdu poet of very high caliber, also expressed mystical thoughts via his phenomenal poetic skills (I love this poetry and feel sorry for those of you than can never understand its depths because of a birth accident !!!). The Beas thing is a very Punjabi thing, and from what I could/can see it was the blind leading the blind into the ditch...always was and always will be. Hell, their master was not even literate and spoke mostly Punjabi (even in the west).

What do I/we think in the end...we are skeptics about the whole thing...we do not attend Satsangs here (too many weirdos, mostly unmarried or generally of the down and out type), but I do enjoy watching the video tapes of Rajinder Singh from time to time, and am very impressed with his ability to explain his father's masterful poetry in clear understandable terms. We like our beer or wine from time to time, spend time with friends that are mostly normal folks who laugh, cry, enjoy life, enjoy football (a little too much), Unlike our friends, we still meditate almost every day, just to keep the mind focused and attempt to relieve any stresses. My wife and I are still vegetarians (as most Indian ladies, my wife always was). We have two adopted kids. My son had and still has difficulty with academic stuff, but we encouraged him to follow his heart, which for now is sports. He is pursuing a sports-related career. His younger sister, the smart one, is at Berkeley, pursuing a super tough engineering degree, like her father did 40 yrs back ! My son eats whatever he likes (and he loves to eat meat), my daughter is a vegetarian like her parents. My philosophy in life is "follow your own passion" whatever that is. Don't give advice. Like Kirpal was fond of quoting Swami Ramtirth, "Wanted Reformers, not of others but of themselves".

Some ten years back we took our children to see Master Rajinder in Orlando. I was immediately struck by my wise decision to stop following in the footsteps of all the sheep I saw there. Don't know what it is, but I am certainly not impressed by most of those following this school or those following the Beas school. For me, the teachings are quite impressive, better than anything I have read on an intellectual level. But these masters are not, and their followers have certainly not imbibed any of these high teachings. I remember a great but simple Sufi tale I read nearly 35 years back. A master died and some folks ran up to a disciple of this master and said to him "did you hear that your master was a fake master ?" The disciple replied, he may have been fake but my faith was true. That is where I find myself. Don't blame anybody, be grateful for all the lessons learned, and be unwilling to lay the blame for all of life's mal-experiences at anyone's feet but one's own.

God Bless...may you all find a deep and abiding peace in your lives, in whatever way you choose...

[manjit]

Hi Gulam-e-Baadshah,

That was a truely fascinating post - thank you very much for sharing that with us!

Reading comments like yours are what make blogs and forums like these worth visiting!

Cheers my friend! :)

[Gulam-e-Baadshah]

Thank you Manjit...I have to tell you that although I am not a Sikh, I have learned so much about the ten gurus and the Guru Grant Sahib, the wide range of Masters quoted there from Kabir to Farid to Namdev, and truly believe that these are among the most precious, deep and authentic scriptures available to man...as Master Kirpal once told the Indian Parliament in an invited speech, they are not meant to be just for the Sikhs but for all humanity...I would go further and say that these ten gurus were not Sikhs for Sikhism had not been formed till after the last Sikh guru...men created Sikhism...these Gurus were Hindus, in other words they had no religion since in its truest form Hinduism is not a religion but a way of life...a true Hindu accepts all Godmen as true representatives of the divine power...

On the subject of materialism by the current Sant Mat masters from the Beas lineage, I do however feel the need to defend Master Rajinder's relatively wealthy status. There are many of my colleagues from the IIT system in India who are currently CEOs and top executives in major U.S. corporations, parteser in Wall Street firms, and even some billionaires (like Vinod Khosla, Desh Deshpande, etc.) Thus, Rajinder's wealth and the fact he lives in a nice home in Chicago (in spite of retiring early) and is seen riding in luxury cars could be commensurate with many of his peers. After all, he worked at Bell Labs for over 20 yrs, one of the premier research institutions of this country. Nevertheless, I am not too hot on all the glitz and glamour that is associated with his immediate family...glitzy clothes with excess jewelry worn by wify, brother in the business of selling expensive designer clothes for the ultra rich and vain, and this thing about luxury cruises (I had not heard about this before)...in fact, I like to share a story with you folks that raised my suspicion about some folks around these masters quite a while back...

We had just heard Master Darshan Singh's talk at a Chicago venue in 1981 or 82. We were all invited to his son Rajinder's house for dinner after that and to be with the master that evening. As I entered the home the Master's wife (Rajinder's mom) asked my wife and me (the young crazy Indian couple) to go upstairs and check out the "round" bed in the master bedroom of Raji's home...I think I heard that right...Of course, I ignored it and did not go up to check this fancy "round" bed, but I was struck at this materialistic comment from the wife of a master !!...my wife did however go and check it out, out of respect for the good lady...part of this can be blamed on the rather spartan surroundings and relative poverty Harbhajan Kaur Ji lived under for most of her life with Master Darshan...Darshan used to ride on the back of a two wheeler to work even though he held a high position in the Indian government....clearly, Darshan and Kirpal were least interested in material wealth...it appears to be a different story with these current generation masters...the Gurinder connection with wealth is outright obscene...I reserve judgment on Rajinder's situation, because I think deep down he too is not too much into this kind of thing, but is going along with what those around him are expecting of him...one thing I have learned about these masters is that many of those around them are suspect, including some close relatives !!! They obviously tolerate all types of folks to hang around them...Never pay attention to those who hang around a master, and hang around like parasites many do...

[Sparrow]

It's been awhile since I have checked this thread. I thank you Gulam-e-Baadshah for your insights and thoughts. It is particularly intriguing to me since I too was a Darshan initiate. I have nothing bad to say about Darshan Singh; my private thoughts are that although he probably was reluctant to take on the mantel of master, he did it out of love and devotion to his father. From all that I could see, he was a humble and spiritual man. That being said, I think the path has affected my marriage more than it seems to have affected yours. And I came to believe that I didn't have to perform so assiduously (hours of meditation) to reach God. Surrender to Jesus did that for me. Anyway, I appreciate your comments and reminisces.

[Jim Sutherland]

To Sparrow, Congrats on returning to Christ! My Philosophy of " Once Saved, Always Saved" is still my Anchor of Faith. I think you will feel secure in your Christian Faith as long as you recognize the difference between the man Jesus, who, historically, can never be proven even existed, other than in Allegory. But, Christ, That same Eternal Shabd that animated a man called Jesus, as well as all Radhasoami Masters, still lives in you and I, and is our "Hope of Glory." You might like what I had to say about Eternal Security in Christ Jesus on my blog, when I wrote this Theses for my M.Min. Degree way back in 1983. It has many parts, so you have to scroll to connect them all. But, if you still are not liked solid to Christ, I think you will like my Theses. You might enjoy my other writings as well.
http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2006/08/eternal-security-thesis-once-entered.html

[Sparrow]

Hi Brian---Not sure how to post this in a general posting area, but I thought this was clever and funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3H6-NQ6hfA

[Gulaam-e-Baadshah]

Sparrow,
that was good stuff...

[UrtzUrtz]

Dear woman - whoever you are, wherever you are.

Sant Mat is a very special and difficult way. It seems to be harmless or just odd nonsense but it´s much more than that.

I understand your feelings and thoughts about Jesus Christ. But I also think that there is some kind of misunderstanding that led you to the conclusion you should leave Jesus Christ to follow Sant Mat. Jesus Christ is called a true, divine Godman from all Sant Mat masters. That means, he is of course still living and working in higher planes and praying to him, believing in him is as good as praying to any other non-living true Godman. It means you can find him as soon as you manage to leave the physical plane. Or it means you can use your love for him to leave the physical plane, too. This is 100% perfect for Sant Mat. And Sant Mat will lead you to the ability to speak to the true Jesus Christ and to unify with him. If this is your focus and wish, it will happen for granted. Even more, if you really love him you HAVE to keep him very tight in your heart because this will be a great help on the path of Sant Mat.

Now there is a big problem with the Bible (as with all "holy" scriptures on earth). What problem is this ? Please answer a few questions for me: What do you think is the reason why we see hundreds of different Christian churches, movements whatever ? And why is it so difficult for them to cooperate, communicate, come together in peace and love as one ? Is it because most of them are too dumb for Christianity ? Or what is wrong in this situation ? You know the answer. You can quote and explain or interpretate as many Bible text as you want, it doesn´t change the fact that the Bible is much but not clear and understandable. Did you ever read the Bible sincerely, from the beginning on ? Just do it ! It will shock you deep to the ground of your heart. It will confuse you, make you sad, horrified, puzzled, angry, all of it and beyond.

Another thing is, you criticize Rajinder Singh, which is absolutely okay, no matter what Guru this is about. Even more: Whe HAVE to examine the Masters as good as we can, since there are too many unholy Masters out there. And mercy for all those who have been initiated by a master which is sent from the negative power. Kal will destroy them for sure. This is too important not to be critical and sceptical as long as we are not really sure. You seem to forget that Sant Mat is not necessarily bounded to Rajinder Singh. This is not the case. There are many Sant Mat Gurus out there, no matter what plane they reached or not, your Sant Mat experience depends in a very very big way from the Master you have been initiated from. And we might agree that it is very probable that most of them are not true Masters of the 5th plane, do we ?

Maybe you had no or as good as no inner experiences. But does it mean Sant Mat is wrong ? Maybe this has something to do with the Master who gave you initiation ? Or with the way you followed the path ? I took part in several initiations and many people had wonderful, remarkable experiences. I myself had nearly no experiences for more than a year and I had been really desperated about it. But then my efforts brought fruits. The point in here is that no initiate is allowed to talk about his or her inner experiences, which is a serious point. That makes the thing so difficult to gage.

If you really love Jesus Christ I would urgently encourage you to search for a true living Godman since this is the only way to find him, the true Jesus Christ, really. You can do whatever you want, anything else will never lead you to him during lifetime. Please do not the mistake not to take this stuff so easy. You can not just leave Rajinder Singh as you want. You might not think of him anymore but the initiation is a fact your soul has been bounded, and if he is negative you will have to bear the consequences and there will be no mercy for you, no matter how strong your belief in Jesus Christ is. I am very sorry to say that and you will not want to believe me for sure, but I can´t help it.

Well, there will be no recommendation of any Master here for a simple reason. It is not my duty to lead people to a Master, this is alone God´s duty. All I can say is: If you don´t believe in Rajinder Singh anymore, which seems to be the case, go on searching for the true Master that will guide you to true enlightenment. If your love for Jesus Christ is strong enough, HE will lead you to a true Master for sure. But your will has to be strong too.

Have a nice time, all blessings for your wonderful soul...

[Jen]

At first I thought Brian was having fun with this thread. After all, this is an anti-religious blog. I find it quite surreal, initiates talking about Jesus and the bible. When I first read in the Sant Mat books about Jesus still existing on the inner planes and people can meet him if they wish, I thought this was just pandering to the Western seekers who seem to be so entangled in the Christian religion.

If Jesus still exists on the inner planes and people can meet him if they wish, then that means he is not a Param Sant Satguru. Probably not gone beyond Trikuti and has not reached Sach Khand.

Just because there are stories about someone in a so called holy book is not evidence that he existed. Its just programming. It all seems like nonsense now, living masters, inner planes, journey of the soul. Can’t believe anything. Gurinder seems to be more open and honest now, lets hope there is more disclosure about the myths we have believed in.

[UrtzUrtz]

@Jen

"If Jesus still exists on the inner planes and people can meet him if they wish, then that means he is not a Param Sant Satguru."

Sorry, why that ? Not true. Any Master can be met on the inner planes.

[Jen]

"Any Master can be met on the inner planes"

Yes, probably we can meet anyone or anything, we can see visions within when we meditate, but only when we die will we know for sure what is real and what is imagination, and maybe we will never know.

I looked up in Spiritual Gems, Maharaj Sawan Singh's letters to satsangis, to see if I could find anything about Jesus and his status on the inner planes. This para 76 says "What you have said about seeing the Radiant Form of Master Jesus is quite true. You will meet him again when you go in, but you are to go much higher up." So the initiate will be going much higher up than Jesus?!

I guess if you imagine that you will meet someone who is Jesus you will probably find someone who looks like the picture Brian has posted above. Good luck with that!

[777]

Yes

We will go where our heart already is.
Good luck with that! ( Jen )

777

[Jen]

777

Why do people feel the need to comfort others who have unrealistic beliefs about some mythological being. Why not advise them to start feeling good about themselves, instead of wanting "to follow Christ and surrender all to Him" and leave all in God's hands..."Those hands are compassionate and loving."

I can see how you guys become quite protective of a female who calls herself "sparrow" which is a sweet timid little bird. Also, she mentions sex, so thats a plus in a man's mind. Really guys, get over it.

As an old woman now, I see through most of the bullshit. Especially the Christian religious nonsense.

We all would like to feel safe with someone who is compassionate and loving and looking after us. I used to feel that way about the 'Living Master' who initiated me. Now I think its best to rely on self, work on being a loving and compassionate self, or at peace with self or whatever, and stop being too meek and mild and submissive and have some faith in one's own higher self.

[777]

Hi Jen

I just repeated you
The point is that we did everything to ourself. - Of course ; it's in the design that we automatically will undo all this states of mind universes, high planes , everything that is temporal.
Like our sun will eat us (corporal) so the astral , causal it will all be eaten.

Certain Humans however ( not animals, stones ) are used by The Inventor to help others to speed
things up. One can only recognise them if the inventor wishes so.
They give "tips" and we can judge at any time if these tips work

I came here not to convince others in the first place. That only my ego , thinking that the grave offences and the obscene calling names plus lies here needed correction, . . at least where people 100% neglect science to the point that the say that 1+2=zero or 5 whatever but not the correct figure
And nobody objects, . . degree or not : total NON-sense is accepted so easily

So, let me repeat your "GOOD LUCK" with that
Science says 13,7 Billion years , that we are underway at least
not knowing about more subtle physics and much much longer episodes in our existance

Wouldn't be a little bit help from a Friend more comfortable
than oxygen for an drowned one

777

I never forget an almost Formule 1 racer
saying that he would immediately apply for 9 lives more
on such an earth as we have
I didn't tell that a 7-chakra form is not guarantied
Perfect Masters are only for the very home-sick

[Jen]

777,

Something that comes to my mind very often nowadays is the Four Yugas and how we are now in Kali Yuga, a time of darkness, and false gods. I looked up Yuga in Spiritual Gems (have given most of my RS books away) and came across this, which is relevant to this thread:

"Suppose you see a form when awake or in dream and it poses as "Christ" and asks you to do this or that and, let us say, foretells events which come out to be correct. How will you know that this form was really Jesus "Christ". You have not seen him in physical form. The astral plane abounds in negative powers which can assume any form they like, and their aim is to deceive."

So much deception everywhere, guess I do need lots of luck :)

[777]

Lots of Luck is Love.
Love for the "non-perishable".

All 7 chakra beings ( humans ) of good Will ( non-aggressive ) can hear this at first so tiny , however the super sweet tone of sound above their eyes.

Next you listen and dive in it and it turns out to be a sweet hurricane in progress , the moments that your own thinking stops.
One minute absolutely without any thought will do
to unfold the orchestra and visa versa
The strength of beautiful frequencies will help our non thinking

Be sure : any thought will spoil the enterprise. - If there is a slight thought, there is no meditation.
It should be called contemplations.

Next you will be sucked in that Stream of Sound and discover that it is what people call : your Soul.

This should be the quintessence of every valuable 'religion' : NOT HYPNOSIS.
Religions are / were born if/when somebody declares the truth of the above
and low ego witnesses see the serendipities involved.
!!!

Next hypocrites flock around with their hysteria and sometimes false phenomena generated
by damaging/openings of aura c q lower chakras
all the way down to ugly voodoo.

When the Sound is there, there is no such falsehood

I should add lines on the power of genuine repetition enforcing the process,
but I did that already years ago here

May the Great Force be with You The Gems contain it all

777

[777]

Hello All
I like to correct myself here

In the former text I made not clearly enough the distinction between
a) hearing the Sound , first time discovering it as a Tiny presence
THIS IS NOT VERY COMPLICATED TO ACHIEVE
almost everybody can !

and
b) say with minimum respect : riding the Sound , hich-hiking , diving, be absorbed

In my text it seems an almost impossible task to exploit the sound
when I said that you need at least some seconds of non-thinking
THIS ASPECT CAN BE DIFFICULT
It can be achieved by many methods like repetitions + meditations
with of course the sublime top 10, the best method of all : which is Love

With Love there is no resistance :
even minor love has the ability to stop thoughts
ask your kids

So a) , the tiny sweet tone can function as a proof
while b) will be more karma dependent per individual
Hope this is clear

777

ps
It can very well be compared with the different stages of physical sexual love
which acts more with the energy of the lower chakras including orgasm

[Sparrow]

Wow! It's been quite a long time since I've looked at this site, and it seems the conversations have blossomed. I also more firmly believe now that if you find a path that works for you, it doesn't make sense to constantly try to undermine other faiths so that you can feel more secure about your own chosen path. If I have decided that following Jesus is what is right for me, then I need to stop trying to find all the wrong things about Sant Mat. Doing this always makes me feel sort of depressed anyway. When I get on with loving Jesus and following Him, then I am happy. Picking through my past with Sant Mat just makes me sad. If I understand 777 correctly, it seems she thinks following any religion means giving up a sense of self. I find that I am MORE my "self" by abandoning false "selves" and following the being that truly completes me. I don't feel I have lost myself, but have found myself. I have Christian friends who want me to judge other ways of being as false and wrong, and i just cannot do that. I feel certain that an all-loving Father God will take care of all His children. It is not my role to monitor other people's paths, but to simply follow my own with all my heart, mind and soul.

[Jen]

Christianity must be the easiest path to follow. Not many rules, are there? Just go to church, sing some hymns, which makes one feel good. Do some charitable work, which also makes one feel good.

Don't know much about the other Sant Mat paths but RSSB is a really strict path. Obviously we can break some rules if we want but then we will take the consequences, no-one else.

No belief in a person who died to save us. We have to follow the rules, otherwise we pay for our digressions. No eating meat, fish or eggs. No alcohol or mind altering drugs. Live a strict moral life, no sex out of marriage. Two and half hours of meditation a day. This is not an easy path but we do the best with as much integrity as we can. Because in a way it is self empowering. We are in control of our own destiny and not relying on some imagined entity from the past to save us.

I shudder when I see this figure nailed to a cross and wonder how people can worship that victim-like martyr. So many Christians take on that martyr like attitude. What a clever way for religions to control others. Make people meek and submissive and at the same time feel good about themselves in that humble and obedient way. How to rule and conquer the sheeple.

[Upsetter]

Jen, just because you submited to some rules some asian turban-heads made up for the sake of keeping you from being too happy about being alive, does not mean that's what all humanity is supposed to do. Some so called christians just find it a good idea to live by this rules:

1.) Don't do onto others what you don't want to be done to you.
2.) Love your neigbor (if he/she could be loved).
3.) Don't judge (too much). We are all flawed and have our little nasty character-traits.
4.) Don't be addicted. But you can use substances for the sake of learning and exploring your human nature. (I just made that one up.)
5.) Be as kind and friendly as possible to those who admit they did something wrong. That's called forgiveness.

Where is my turban?

[david r]

Jen, there are so many errors in what you just typed it would require a book to thresh them out and correct.

The actual question to ask is, which path is true? Or, what is the truth? Get to grips with this first.

Jesus said "my yoke is easy and my burden is light". So you are correct that Christianity is an easy path.

Paul said, "We are justified through faith in Jesus Christ, not works, lest any person should boast". That pretty much does away with every other religion on the planet.

As far as I can see, people like you in Sant Mat aren't doing anything particularly strenuous or strict aside from meditation in comparison to other religious paths. And constantly complaining about dairy products seems like a shallow reason to criticize the SM path since there are millions of vegans that aren't on it. Out of the things you mentioned, Christians are not taking alcohol or drugs (The Bible says that such things are out of the question. The word it uses is our modern day word Pharmaceutical). As for wine, the ancient Jews didn't drink wine to get drunk. Their wine was very low alcohol content and they used it simply because clean water was not readily available in that part of the world at that time. Plus, today we know that red wine can actually help to thin the blood. As for no sex aside marriage, one of the 10 commandments is "thou shalt not commit adultery". As for meat eating, it is not a requirement or spoken against - it is a choice. There are plenty of vegetarian Christians.

So apart from your practice of meditation, I cannot see much, if any, difference.

As to the idea that the atonement of Christ means that we are not responsible for our own actions, this is a complete misunderstanding. It is too broad a subject to go into here right now.

Your contention that Jesus was an "imagined entity from the past" is completely wrong and without foundation. What you need to do is to look at the early history of Christianity and thoroughly study all the available sources, the counter criticisms, the skeptic side, and so on. If you approach it in this manner then you can't accuse me, anybody else, or even yourself of bias. Again, this is quite a broad subject and I can't do justice to it in this small window of a comment section. But if you are willing to invest your own time into studying this issue then you should be all the better for it.

I don't understand your last paragraph. What do you mean by "martyr"? If you mean what the word actually means, then I still can't see what you are trying to say. If you mean that Christians pretend to be martyrs by killing other people then obviously you don't know the first thing about Christianity.

You said, "Not many rules, are there? Just go to church, sing some hymns, which makes one feel good. Do some charitable work, which also makes one feel good."

I dealt with the so called rules already. And no, it isn't just about going to church, singing hymns and giving to charity to make oneself feel better. I couldn't think of a more gross oversimplification that is plain just wrong. As to the idea that people are Christians to make themselves feel better - you have your own shoe on the wrong foot there. Jesus said, "deny your self". On the contrary, aren't you practising meditation in Sant Mat to "feel better" yourself? You can't have it both ways. Either you are doing it because you want to feel better or reach some kind of "enlightenment" (which never comes, by the way) or the reason you are meditating is to be a completely unselfish person with no agenda other than to help other people at the cost to your own wellbeing.

Speaking of meditation, in the western traditions (aside from some mystical forms in Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox Churches) meditation is a method of contemplation and does not have anything to do with emptying the mind or trying to achieve some passive state of mind, as in the Eastern meditation methods. Meditation for Christians consists of reading the Bible and thinking deeply about things. In contrast, eastern meditation methods empty the mind and are therefore extremely dangerous for numerous reasons. Frankly speaking, if you are going to empty your mind then don't be surprised if something else gets in there and takes over.

I can anticipate that part of your response will be to tell me, in no uncertain terms and with the peace and joy you have cultivated with your sant mat meditations over the decades, that you were actually raised a Christian and was one for roughly 20 years of your life and that I simply do not know whereof I speak. My response to that is simply this: no, you were not a Christian. Otherwise, if you weren't brought up a Christian then I apologise for making that assumption.

Alls well that ends well.

[Jen]

Hi guys,

I know I sound like all bitter and twisted but thats where this blog helps, being able to express one's feelings, especially if they are anti-religious.

I've never liked the Christian faith, was subjected to learning about it at school, went to church Sunday school when I was little and absolutely hated it. My first year was at a Catholic school and I have strong memories of crying every night because I hated it so much. I was five years old. I remember putting my hand up in class and asked the Nun if I could go to the toilet and she said no. I wet my pants and then she came up and smacked me on the hand with a ruler.

I was not brought up as a Christian, my mother only sent me to this school because she thought it was a better school than the public schools. She did put me into the local school after year one at the Catholic school and I was much happier, although we still had bible studies! Since I was young I thought all the stories were nonsense and to have to put up with it being shoved down my throat has lived with me ever since. I think its just brain washing for children.

I was initiated into Sant Mat (Charan) when I was 23 years old. What attracted me was the fact that he was a living example. Not some old fashioned stories which did not make sense.

Now Gurinder has changed quite a few basic understandings of Sant Mat. I no longer feel I am a satsangi. Of course after 47 years I still have a lot of beliefs that I have held about life, afterlife, to come to terms with. I'm not bitter about Sant Mat, in fact I think the morals I learnt and have followed from the path have been beneficial for me and my family. I stick to the principles except I've never been good at meditating.

Being a satsangi has made me different to most of the people I meet in many ways. And thats okay. I don't feel special any more. Its just the way it is. I live a quiet meditative life and the way I deal with all this is the simple understanding that I just don't know and thats a good feeling.

Thanks Brian, some people probably get annoyed and think I am just whingeing for the sake of it, but this blog means a lot to me and its a big help.

Cheers

[Upsetter]

Well...David...in my book reading the bible to be considered as a proper christian is not neccessary. It's an option, not a duty. But being able to discern between good story-telling and bad story-telling is a must. And for that reason, to learn how to discern, reading the bible might be something to engage in. For the sake of being able to answer the questions: And? Is that considered good story-telling? Yes or no? Give an explaination for your answer, please.

Annnndddd...if you have to edit the bible, what would you censor? What would you edit out of it, David? And why.

Thanks for reading.

[Jen]

david r,

Just to explain a bit, I was never a Christian. I was subjected to the usual indoctrination about Christianity at school. In comparison Sant Mat is a difficult path to follow but then I no longer follow any particular path. I'm not religious and the only label I can use now is "unknowing".

Upsetter,

Your rules are interesting and I agree with most of them and am still exploring my human nature. Got a long way to go till I can actually say with sincerity to someone who is pushing their agenda "Is that so?" and then move on without being affected.

[Upsetter]

Jen, äh...what? What agenda is being pushed by me, other than: Have fun, IF you deseve it.....???

Seriously....existentialism, as some better, but not perfect term to define my kind of being a christian...well...why not calling it...hold on...wait...I'm thinking....what about....existential-somehow-christian-some-kind-of-thingy?

[david r]

Upsetter,

Forgive me for saying that I didn't understand the first paragraph you wrote.

If I had to edit the Bible what would I censor and why?

I am not sure I quite understand your question. Do you mean that if I had to write the Bible which parts would I take out? Do you mean to ask me if I think there are parts of the Bible I disagree with and if so, what would I say about that?

If you haven't noticed, I am very particular about words.

I would certainly take out of the Bible nothing.

I would take out people that interpreted the Bible into meaning something that it doesn't say and using that to argue with other people. That is what I would do.

If you are asking me whether I would take hell out of the Bible, I would do no such thing and nor would I take Hell out of the Hindu writings or the Buddhist writings.

May I ask you a question or 2? So what cult belief system do you subscribe to, even if you are an atheist, because it helps to get your stance here so that we can communicate with each other effectively, ?

[Upsetter]

Oh David, thanks for asking!

Of course I would cut some stuff out of the bible AND out of the Bhagavad-Gita AND out of every scripture I consider as a double-edged (sword) teaching. Why would I not do it? If I could?

And NO, I'm not an atheist. I never was and I never will be.

Horrido!

[david r]

Upsetter,

You didn't reply to some of my questions though :)

I would be interested to know what you would take out of these scriptures yourself.

[Upsetter]

David, the violent parts. Not because I think there is or was no violence involved by what some think the biblical (or bhagavad-gitacal) "god" or "lord" talked about. A "god" who is violent and mean is not a god. That's my take on it. It needs to be made sure "who is who and what is what" in the bible and other so called scriptures. And that is, in my eyes, not properly done yet, IF one calls the bible (and other scriptures), what ever translation, the word of God.

Know what I mean?

[david r]

Upsetter, I know that you think, based on what you typed above, that violence in any of these so called holy books is repugnant to you and your conception of God as you understand God and that these violent writings do not represent that. However, my personal thought about it is that the violence isn't a literal account but based on the use of story telling employing allegory to drive into the human mind a deeper point.

I wouldn't consider the Quran to be in the same category, by the way!

It isn't clear to me personally that the Old Testament is supposed to be an historical book because there doesn't seem to be any way of knowing for sure whether the events in it actually happened as they are depicted. The same is true of the ancient Hindu writings. They read more like mythology. Whereas the Quran, being of comparatively recent origin and with passages that seem to go against the prohibition to murder which reads like history and not mythology, seems to condemn itself in my mind.

So I would differ with you regarding the use of wars in these books as being parts I would remove from them.

On the subject of God, I did ask you before what cult belief you subscribed to or used to. I will wait for your answer to that.

[Upsetter]

David, what cult I "subcribed to" was Sant-Mat, when I was an adult already. I did the stuff they recommended to do for about two and a half year and then I realized what needed to be realized for me.

I'm born as an existentialist. My parents did not have a particular religious believe and I'm not baptized.

What is my faith now? Well...that's hard to tell. I guess I'm still an existentialist. That means: I know what my whole life was all about the minute I die. And what I deal in right now is: I engage in story-telling as a play-writer and I consider myself a philosopher, in the tradition of Arthur Schopenhauer. That means: I try to use only words I can define properly by what I write and say.

And yes, I do understand that some value the bible as something that can be called some sort of a mind-set that is a mirror for those who read it the right way. I just don't have that particular mind-set and my way of reading scriptures (all scriptures) is as a skeptic.

Does that make sense to you?

[Sparrow]

It's so interesting to come back to this thread and see what people have discussed. The only thing I want to address is Jen's comment about Jesus's crucifixion, and her aversion to that. Yes, it is a very difficult concept to wrap one's mind around. Here is my take: Jesus wasn't a martyr in the usual sense of the word; He knew that it was a necessary step to reconcile the world to God, and so He willingly went through this suffering for that reason. He did suffer and felt unimaginable pain, but He did for love of mankind. Now I realize that this is a hard concept, and even I as a Christian wonder at it. But I believe that He suffered, died, and was resurrected, and by these events, we are healed and reconciled. It is not unlike the belief in Sant Mat that the guru takes on our karma, and therefore brings us closer to union with God. I read in many places that the guru suffers from our karma, but does it out of love. It's a similar idea. The difference, as I see it, is that in Sant Mat, unless you meditate competently enough, you will not be united with God. Christians believe that if they surrender their lives to Jesus and trust in His word, union with God is guaranteed. In Hindu thought one might have to go through millions of lifetimes to achieve this goal, and in Sant Mat it's at least 4 lifetimes if one doesn't get the meditation right. Does it appear "easy" to be a Christian? How interesting. I find it a challenging path. I need to turn over my life on a daily basis to God, surrender any idea of working or performing or being a good person as a path to God, and just trusting that His love will carry me "home." Works don't get me to God, but out of love for God and through His grace, good works will flow.

[Jen]

Hi Sparrow,

When I first started reading Brian's blog in 2008, I didn't contribute much and when I did it was to argue with the others because I was so completely immersed in Sant Mat, had read all the books many times over and it was difficult at first to actually see things from another perspective.

I call it like a mini awakening but it took awhile and is still ongoing. Also, in that year when I bought my new computer, I started looking into mind control and programming. I realised just how naive I had been and although am now still a seeker after truth what has changed is I am finding my own inner strength because its become obvious that I can no longer cling to someone else to save me.

So surrender seems to be working for you and maybe thats okay, but not for me. We do have our own familiar archetypes in our minds but it is so very easy to be fooled, because any other being can pretend to be someone else. Just watch a hypnotist or a trickster who practices mind control to see just how easily people's minds can be controlled.

[Sparrow]

Hi Jen---I support you totally on your journey to find your truth and inner strength. I think we all travel this road at different speeds and with different needs. I have always loved God as long as I can remember. In fact, I have a clear memory of lying in the snow and looking up at the sky when I was four-years old and having the distinct impression of a Higher Power at work in the universe. I knew that I had to somehow get to know that Higher Power, and as fate had it, Christianity has worked the best for me. Now it is hard to fathom what drew me to Sant Mat other than that was what my husband was into and I thought "Well, I love and admire him, so perhaps there is something to this Sant Mat businessl," but ultimately I grew "homesick" for Jesus, and returned to Him.

I don't worry about mind control because what I believe brings me such peace, comfort, joy, and growth. If it's mind control---bring it on! (grin) I don't judge other peoples' journeys because to do so only brings me angst. I can only deal with my own journey, and I leave every one else to the loving God who knows each person's heart and soul much better and more fully than I ever, ever could.

Good luck with your search. I hope it brings you the peace you are looking for.

[Jen]

Sparrow, its very interesting to me how people have belief systems that work for them, as in your case. Your belief brings peace, comfort, joy and growth. Wow. When I had a lot of faith in the Master who initiated me, I found that life seemed to work out so well for me and I was so grateful because I was being looked after. Now I am filled with doubt and its quite a miserable way to be. I think this is a huge growth step for me. I can't go back to being naive and at the same time I need to be very positive in my thinking. What I am doing now is if I feel I need to have something to believe in, I will choose something very positive and fulfilling because observing people who live with faith I can see that it works for them. Sounds weird I know but the mind works in such a mysterious way, it seems like if we have a powerful belief we will manifest that into our so called reality.

[Upsetter]

There is no way to seperate ones "spirituality" from ones political stance. That's basic european pre-university political-science teaching (high-school level). We all live in a political world and political means, at its basis: We are no islands. We are members of a certain political system. No matter if we pretend to deny it nor not. It's a fact.

And IF one chooses to not engage in politics, because it seem to be too much hustle to do so, that's a choise one has made. But so called spirituality is no excape from being a political entity. One can pretend to be non-political, but that's just this: Helplessness. And I don't condemn helplessness in times where almost all politicians are pretty much messed up. But to pretend to be "above" being a political entity, or pretending to have "transcended" it is rediculous.

"If you don't want to change the world, you are responsible for the way it is." - Die Ärzte (Some Jesus-freaks)

[Upsetter]

And here and now I try to expose and refute the god-concept-paradox:

1.) IF you are raised with no religious indoctrination, you can call yourself an existentialist. (But not in the Jean Paul Sartre sense. He, as I heard through the grapwine, on his death-bed called for a cathlic priest. That's all one needs to know about his particular brand of existentialism.)

2.) Then, for unknown reasons, seeking starts...even for an existentialist, because there is this thingy, called the god-concept that seem to have a some sort of power of the mind-set of everybody.

3.) When one is desperate enough by the circumstances one finds oneself in, some (mostely fake) "guru" figure appears to give you some method to work with. For the sake of "comming closer to god".

4.) After having done the method as required, in the time-frame of about three years, one sees through the god-concept by recognizing: I AM THAT....already.

5.) Once one recognized: I am god...and enjoying it for some time, that also gets denied. Which means: I'm no god, because the god-concept is considered as being evil and just having one agenda: "Divide and conquer". So that gets denied also.

6.) What I am is just that: Existence in action. Being cool, calm and collected while enjoying LIVING to the degree it is possible under not too perfect circumstances.

7.) Fighting the god-concept, any god-concept, for the sake of freeing humanity from being slaves to some concept that almost never delivers anything of any value.

8.) Done that, been there. Still pointing at what is false as being false. For the sake of removing falsehood from "isness". Writing comedys to point to what is right. For the sake of increasing pleasure...for all.

9.) Jesus Christ: A men denying his godhood for the sake of being a human being, who was killed for pointing out that there is no other god but being (here and now) as a human being. (I already re-wrote that particular story for the sake of saving that dude from suffering.)

10.) Humanity rocks!

[Upsetter]

And to finally nail the issue...of who is the better choise....of who to follow, for all who like Jesus Christ that much...like I do....in his current, but now is also a dead re-incarnation/second-comming kinda thingy...who's already gone ("gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate...bodhi...svaha!!!")

Here is Bill Hicks (my favourite Jesus character-impersonator of all time):

Bill Hicks - It's Just A Ride:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0mBAsIPS1w

[Mooba]

I have always been a Christian, but can't help but seeing parallels between Jesus and Sat Purush (or is it Sat Nam) in Sach Khand who (in Sant Mat literature) is the personal expression of the Supreme Being (the Father).

Sat Nam has a throne in Sach Khand (kingdom of heaven), and is referred to as the True Being, the King of kings etc., etc.

They seem to totally miss this...that Sat Nam might be Jesus Himself (just saying) who 2000 years ago left Sach Khand and descended to earth (he had no karma, he has no past lives), and was born of a virgin just like the Bible says....(the Holy Spirit over-shadowed Mary and she conceived and Jesus the Christ was born.)

He was a "Lamb without spot" because he had no sins or karma, and he was not contaminated with human DNA (Mary was basically a surrogate mother carrying the divine seed).

The angel even announced to Mary that he shall be called the Son of God. After his birth the angel said this day Christ was born.

Jesus and Christ are one and the same. Jesus was not a man who later realized his Christ self. He was Christ from birth

He even said he was with the Father before the world was created, and that he will go back to the Father.

He even said the Father is greater then him even though they are basically one in intent and purpose.

There may have been prophets and sons and angels etc...whom the Father sent over the eons to show humanity their plight....But when He sent Jesus he was sending His own Son (whom people still persecuted).

But this was different.

Jesus was a second Adam, who was spiritual, and the beginning of a new spiritual race. He was not natural like the first Adam.

Basically because of his life, suffering, death and resurrection all have now been put in a capacity of salvation, but the choice if ours whether we want to follow the true living Sant Sat Guru (Jesus or Yahshua in Hebrew...or is it Yeshua)), or follow anti Christ whom will basically never admit to the supremacy of Jesus since the spirit of anti Christ is envious and jealous of Jesus etc.

[Neon]

How can people believe so hard in a book?

[Redeemer Torgah]

Following Sant Mat is like following Jesus as spirit, but following Christianity is like following Jesus as a human being.And remember Jesus is not a human being but a spirit of God, which is also known as the son of God.
Thank you.

[atia]

Hello,

My comments are coming back around to the question of sexual chastity (as an aside--reminder: chastity involves non-attachment to all sense desires, not just sexual ones.) In any case, this is a question I have pondered profoundly for a long time. My interpretation is this: we are human beings who have lived many lifetimes, creating many samskaric imprints that include sexual desire and practice. The path is one of gradual evolution__g r a d u a l. So, to force oneself to give up a desire abruptly can cause much frustration and turbulence. Could one force oneself to eat, all the while relinquishing any pleasure that eating might bring? I think most are not purified enough to do so. Anything that traps the divine consciousness in the channels of the senses, including the master sense organ-the brain, prevents it from fulyl focusing on the goal: divine consciousness. So, while we are walking the path, our consciousness might be dispersed into myriad directions, like a laser beam refracted upon various solid objects. We gradually learn the futility of finding lasting satisfaction through the sense organs, and thus desires gradually lessen in their intensity. I believe the guru can also help to lift desires, erase them if you will, if we are truly willing to place our will behind letting them go. Note that no one is forced to do so.

My analysis is that the manner in which Kirpal Singh delivered the teachings, seemingly very stricly, acts as a counter-balance to excessive desire. They might be a sign of the times: especially to Westerners as the 1960's presented a cultural free-for-all option where "anything goes." How many of us are so completely enthralled with God-consciousnes that we would forsake even the smallest enjoyments for a vastly greater experience? Perhaps very few, I don't know. In any case, God speaks from within. If we are not meant to walk with a specific guru, if he does not match our needs, then perhaps we might feel very uncomfortable and project undesirable traits onto him? Even a perfect master can fall under this dynamic, after all, the mind is incredibly creative and persuasive. However, we must test the guru, any guru, for his/ her fitness to lead us. Faith is not to be handed over blindly but is to be based on our own experience.

[Xavier]

Hi Anja!
I live in Ecuador, so please forgive my "bad-english".

I also received the Sant Mat initiation through a "representative" of Sant Baljit Singh.

You wrote that the Simram is a Shiva-Mantra.
Could you please give me more information about it?

Blogger Brian, could you put us (Anja and me) in contact?
It seems she is not following this post any longer.

Best regards,
Xavier

[Brian Hines]

Xavier, I've sent a message to the email address Anja supplied. I said that she could decide if she wanted to email you, or leave a comment on this post in reply to your comment.

[Upsetter]

Hi Xavier,

yes, I can elaborate further on why I think the sant-mat simran (mantra) is a Shiva mantra:

1.) Niranjana (adj) means: free from malice and sin, without make-up, not wrong/false. It is another name for Shiva.

So, the first part of the simran calls upon the light of Shiva, as I understand it.

2.) Omkara means: Singing, saying out loud, reciting the sylable OM.

3.) So'ham means: He is me. And it also refers to the sound breathing makes.

4.) Sat (adj) means: Being, existence, reality, truth, good, wise.

5.) Naam means namah, which means honoring (or bowing to) the name (of the Lord).

I hope that helped. In case you want to contact me, just leave a message here. Brian e-mailed me your e-mail adress.

Kind regards,
Upsetter

[David K]

I would be happy to share my thoughts, as I have had extensive experience of both paths you speak of. I would hope that whatever I say would strengthen your love of Jesus. However I would not do it in a public forum. So - you have my email.

[Wilma]

I didn't read the comments people wrote re. your request but I did read your comment about how you felt God's (Jesus) immense love for you once. I understand this --- once God touches you in this way, no matter what happens you cannot NOT believe in Jesus. God calls this his "first hello". I am interested to know what's happening to you now spiritually? I am a Catholic mystic. If you are really thirsting to know God... would be more than happy to share what He has explained and revealed to me. I do have a website where you these revelations are written. Anyway, feel free to contact me if you are interested.

[Periander A. Esplana]

Objective reality can be verified. The Lord Jesus Christ is a historical person as historically recorded in the Bible supported by over 5,000 textual manuscripts with solid archaeological and scientific evidences. He died for our sins on the cross, buried for three days and three nights, and resurrected with great power and glory. HE IS ALIVE!!! He ascended to heaven and is now seating at the right hand of God, thus there's no need for a so-called living master today. He is the most influential person throughout the history as seen in western civilization in contrast to eastern paganism. He is the center of history itself (BC and AD). Mystical experiences like illegal drugs, mantric meditation, shamanic/wiccan/witch potion, wine, etc. are all self-induced intoxication that resulted to self-deception and self-delusion in the realm of pure subjectivity. Real science, true philosophy and right religion always affirm the entire Bible truth.

[Siso]

mantric meditation...aka..lords prayer

[DSAS]

There is a living Master of Sant Mat in Ecuador, barbarbabaji.com, a disciple of Sant Ajaib Singh, for those who may be interested.

[DSAS]

The important thing, I would say, is love, whether it is for Jesus or a master of sant mat, or for any person or persons. Love is to be cultivated, and as Sant Kirpal Singh has said, love is the way back to God.

So in this regard, love cannot fail us, and it behooves us to develop our consciousness in such a way as to become truly loving individuals, embassadors of Christ or Kirpal and so forth.

Thus one of the roles of a True Saint or Mahatma - to give us the means and understanding for doing exactly that, cultivating love. Via Their teachings or commandments or remonstrations, all guidance is directed towards this sole aim, to harness the love of God and of soul.

Bar Bar

[Christ Servant]

During my meditation I had Christ come to me in much more powerful ways than their gurus, I felt if I could see Christ and receive much light that lifted me out of the darkness and weird relationships I found in Sant Mat than I have found something much greater than a guru who did nothing for me but bring pain and dishonest leaders to my life. I was disciplined for even mentioning Christ. These people are a very dark power and I would recommend anyone to stay far away. I am now a teacher of Christ meditation and it is beautiful. Thanks for the post

[Jim Sutherland]

To Christ Servant,....

The problem with trying to trust any inside Entity claiming to be the Christ in meditation, or at death, is, unless you met The Entity while you were both alive in the flesh, then you might be deceived and taken advantage of.

Once initiated by a Living Master, then you will recognise that Master inside, and can trust being guided by rhe combined Christ Masters since the Dawn of Creation.

But you must meet the Radiant Form of your initiating Master inside, other wise, you might have not been marked to return Home this life.

Jim Sutherland

[Sundi]

Interesting that a Master is criticized for his wealth but I highly doubt that she would criticize any wealthy "christian" "priest". Keep filling their baskets, pockets and purses with your $$$ and irony.

[Seeking]

Can anybody help me? I studied Kirpal, Taoism, Mooji and Baljit. Years ago, a friend I care very much about was initiated by a disciple of Baljit. For some time I had considered an initiation, as well. However, I am not sure whether I can follow the strict rules (no eggs!) even though I am almost a vegetarian and barely drink. So, here my questions: Can unguided meditation lead to confusion or even harm? Can anybody share experiences with a living master and explain why it is so important to be connected to one? Thank you!