Once in a while someone emails me a description of a marvelous mystical experience they've had. Usually the person is a devotee of the organization I belonged to for about 35 years -- Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB).
RSSB is led by a guru who is considered to be God in human form, in much the same way as Jesus is viewed by Christians. Except, the guru is alive. Once initiated by the guru, supposedly he places his "radiant form" within the disciple's consciousness.
Then the radiant form leads the mind/soul of the disciple through various higher stages of reality until they reach Sach Khand (roughly, heaven) together. At least, that's the way it is supposed to work. Demonstrable evidence of this actually happening is, charitably, slim.
More accurately, I'd say, non-existent.
Still, there are quite a few personal tales like the one below. I'm assuming the person who contacted me is fine with his experience being shared since he speaks of "wanting to give non-believers a different perspective."
By and large I agree with what Sam Harris said in his critique of Eben Alexander's claim that he almost died and went to heaven.
As many of you know, I am interested in “spiritual” experiences of the sort Alexander reports. Unlike many atheists, I don’t doubt the subjective phenomena themselves—that is, I don’t believe that everyone who claims to have seen an angel, or left his body in a trance, or become one with the universe, is lying or mentally ill. Indeed, I have had similar experiences myself in meditation, in lucid dreams (even while meditating in a lucid dream), and through the use of various psychedelics (in times gone by). I know that astonishing changes in the contents of consciousness are possible and can be psychologically transformative.
So I also generally assume that when someone shares a profound mystical experience, he or she actually had the subjective perceptions, feelings, and such being described. But this is a long way from what the person wants me and others to believe about the experience.
Namely, (1) that it reflects objective truths about reality that exist outside of the person's brain/mind, and (2) is an experience that should be as meaningful to others as it was to the person.
Regarding (1), lots of people have described their experiences of seemingly supernatural realms beyond the physical. For example, a brief bit of Googling led me to a Jesus Evidence web site containing some detailed descriptions of heavenly encounters.
I found myself walking in this beautiful place where I felt safe, secure, and a great love and peace over me. As I began to look around I saw a river, clear and transparent almost crystal. The green grass was as deep as an emerald stone, the sky was so beautiful as the light was so bright. Then I looked to see who was holding my hand. It was Jesus. His eyes were like fire and ever so kind, so full of the purest of love that you could ever imagine. His hand was so big compared to mine. It had light coming out of the scar where the nail had gone through his hand. He took me to this wonderful place where I saw lots of children. As the other children gathered around Jesus and myself, He talked to us.
So are we supposed to believe all of these many varieties of spiritual/mystical experiences, some of them, none of them? My view is, none of them, unless there is convincing evidence that what a person experienced points to hitherto unknown truths about objective reality.
Dreams can seem real while we're having them. So can hallucinations. Ditto with drug-induced visions. The brain/mind frequently conjure up subjective sensations and perceptions that don't exist outside of a person's cranium.
Again, though, this doesn't take away from the reality of the experience as experienced by the experiencer. As you can read below, the person who contacted me is convinced that he had a blissful vision of the guru and supernatural realms.
Which leads to the second issue: whether anyone else should view a mystical experience as deeply meaningful. Put differently, if another person had the same experience (leaving aside the question of whether it is subjectively or objectively true), would it seem as profound to them?
I suspect not.
I say this based on a lifetime of having people tell me things like, "You've got to see this TV show; you'll love it!" After which I watch it, and don't love it at all. Same is true in reverse, of course. I enjoy things that other people find distasteful.
Riding a motorcycle or scooter, for example; this makes me profoundly happy, while the few times I got my wife to ride with me, she hated the experience.
Now, I think that if I had experiences like those described below -- in a dream, say -- I'd find them enjoyable and interesting. But there's no way to know whether they'd be as meaningful to me as they were to the person who emailed me.
Since I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, having a vision of him probably wouldn't mean a whole lot to me. But to a Christian, likely it'd be a Wow! experience.
Thus my reaction to the description below basically is:
It's great, guy, that you had such an enjoyable experience. Hope you can understand why, without solid evidence, I can't believe that this is anything but your personal subjective experience, not a reflection of objective reality. It was deeply meaningful to you, but you're you, and everyone else is who they are.
Here's the message I got:
Hello Brian trust all is well in your karmic dance of life.
Feel - know that must put the negativity of your website into perspective .
My first visit to your website was ‘accidental” ... in that had read your Sant Mat recommended book ... was searching to see what else you had written.
As a result of reading your site at the time ... felt an impulse to respond to one of your articles (cannot remember which one now)
My response was simply … that had been a long time initiate ... had satisfied self from inner experiences ... that what was in the Sant Mat books is genuine.
So to now ...
this am during meditation had a “knowing” to go to your website to read the articles in the last few years ... here is my response.
Though it is not advisable to share ones inner experiences ... am about to do so to give non believers a different perspective given out of love not ego!
This experience in 2004 was 7 years after my initiation on 26/7/1997 by Beloved Babaji’s representative ...had diligently followed Beloveds guidelines ... have had other inner experiences prior-since but this is the one that is not so personal .
Experienced such indescribable Joy-Bliss ... Beloved Babaji’s Blessing in Meditation ... such energy surges from the feet up my whole body racked by spasms ... tingly heat ... eventually lost all bodily feeling ... like being paralysed ... such ringing inside my head ... colours-flashes of very bright white .
Saw self from above self … from above the planet trailing a silvery thin cord ... self was in the form of an embryo attached to the earth with a mothers umbilical cord...
Rushing starriness ... moon ... then went straight through the sun ... then beautiful landscape ... rocky gentle river, fir trees, meadows, high snow flecked mountains ... like in the Canadian Rockies ...
Master took off his turban ... he smiled as he flicked his beautiful, glistening shoulder length hair ...no trace of grey in hair-beard ...thought how beautiful-radiant ... reminded me of Master Jesus ...
Through the whole experience was doing simran … felt so Contented, Joyful, Blissful ...then seemed to zip back into my body ... like a genie into a bottle ... once again could move ... elapsed time 1 hour 20 mins 10 pm
It’s wonderful how Master answers one through the books … subsequently read what Master Sawan Singh wrote which substantiates this experiences …
"When by repetition of the names, with attention fixed in the eye focus, you have become unconscious of the body below the eyes ... your attention will catch the sound current ... select the church bell, and discard all other sounds ... slowly your soul will leave the body and collect in the eyes ...
When the concentration is complete, it will appear as if you are separate from the body... the starry sky will appear in time ... fix your attention in the bright star and continue repetition ...
When approached it will burst, and your attention will penetrate through it ... the starry sky has been crossed ... in the same manner the sun and the moon ... after the moon, Masters radiant form appears, fix your attention, and hand yourself over to Master .
~ Based on my 18 years of experience ... if initiates do not have inner experiences ... there are probably 3 reasons
I They are not doing the daily time required ... at initiation made the commitment to do 3 hours daily ... once made did not have to make a daily decision
II They are not doing it properly ie falling asleep...not concentrating etc
III They do not go with the FLO ... Faith Love Obedience ... Meditation is Devotion ... there should be no expectations ...
Beloveds Grace will come when the time is right
At beloved Babajis request all references to RSSB were removed …
Trust this information will help some
These experiences people have during meditation could be coming from conditioning (brain washing) from what they have been taught to expect on the so called inner journey from the teachings of Sant Mat.
"Hyperdimensional Physics Our leading scientists have already discovered that you create reality from a subdimensional order of things. They call it hyper-dimensional physics. It is the same thing I have been discussing and referring to as the holographic reality.
Our ancient holy men and mystics have long known about this. They were able to tap into the holographic/hyper-dimensional reality of the universe. By understanding this, they could make things appear and disappear, like magic, but it's physics. It is simply having a greater control of your reality than most humans."
"Your Brain Is a Holographic Computer
The human brain is like a piece of holographic film (plate). Each small part of your brain contains all the information you have. Your thought waves are the equivalent of a beam of laser light passing through a holographic plate. The resulting information is then projected into your consciousness and becomes reality to your perception. Not only that, but every cell in your body holographically contains the complete files of everything you have ever experienced, in full, living color and sound. And, they can be replayed."
Posted by: Jen | July 27, 2015 at 07:11 PM
I got this reply to Jen emailed to me by the guy who sent me the original message. Here it is:
Hello Jen ... if what you contend is true anyone who reads my inner experience will subconsciously duplicate it !
Firstly, for ego reasons, we are discouraged from disclosing inner experiences ... so have not heard it from someone else !
Secondly it wasn’t until some months after the experience ... when read in a book ... Master Sawan Singh’s description of such an event !
the general thrust of his description is similar ... but the words are different ... he describes “the bright star” ... my words are “going through the sun “
there have been other experiences ... some were cross referenced with Psychics ... have extracted these from my electronic diary
Additionally share these extracts from readings of 3 different Psychics in early 2000’s before my inner experiences : my understanding-knowing is they are accurate but deceptive !
You are an old soul, came to complete and tie off loose ends
You have a very good male friend who is always beside you, of the same soul essence, an aspect of each other,
Master is a teacher , a guide, showing people how to make their own choices
Master is a guide not God
He knows that the age of the Guru has been over for 20 years
You have a strong past life connection with Master, he has a lot of wisdom, doing a lot of good, a good teacher
The way you express your self comes from your life time with Jesus; your whole outlook comes from then, and will become more prominent in the future.
When you hear the bell (inner Shabd-life stream rings within self 24 hrs), clarity comes, you have found peace through the living Master
Being vegetarian has lightened your aura and made you more sensitive.
Your first gift is “knowing” before things happen
Your dream of seeing Master with his glasses hanging awry from one ear ; you are being challenged to not be so trusting of other peoples truth
With regards to your inner vision (during meditation) of your teacher and the doves This is was you. This indicates that you are ready to fully integrate peace between your own
masculine-feminine aspects, the balance this brings to you on a physical level.
That teacher was you ... the doves, are your own masculine and feminine aspects uniting, as truly we are genderless and very balanced.
Your dream about Master giving you a clear crystal was symbolic of the clarity coming your way… crystals symbolise clarity and healing. It is symbolic of something in your life
which needs to take form, or harden with purity when it takes shape
On evening Monday 25/3/02, during your profound out of body experience (not during meditation) you broke the seal, went up and touched the heart of the universe
Posted by: Brian Hines | July 30, 2015 at 01:43 PM
From your original post, the guy who sent you the original message said "Have a private not for profit spiritual website www.spiritus.com.au. inspired-established 1999 to help seekers after Truth".
I just tried to check out his website and got this message "Your connection is not private. Attackers might be trying to steal your information from [the spiritus link mentioned above]"
Posted by: Jen | July 30, 2015 at 05:53 PM
Jen, thanks for the heads-up. I've deleted the link from the post, since it might be suspicious.
Posted by: Brian Hines | July 30, 2015 at 08:27 PM
I agree with you that a lot of carbon copy can occur
and even very honestly
Many cults use the possibilities of the brain ( better to say : one or more CHAKRAS )
and they are all impressive AND subjective
Now , . . How to react to a guy or gurl telling you
that ( for instance ) :
That she, being a schoolbus driver , then at night forgot stopping meditation for 24 hours ( let's not exaggerate )
and then the day after : hear from all the schoolchildren that she was firmly present at the wheel the other day
and nobody missed Her
I guess , it would shock you, . . explode, implode ? . . you wouldn't like placing such a letter, . . or you would place , adding this was a liar or mentally disturbed one.
Yes , life is complicated but often great & funny
So much to learn and experience
The best slogan :
"So says Nanak, the lowliest of the lowly " JapJi
Posted by: 777 | August 01, 2015 at 03:25 AM
Consider broadening your perspective ... it will set you free !
soul animates the physical body
physical body is manifest by low vibration sound-light (Shabd)
body simply provides physical mobility for soul
mind is the computer software
driving the computer brain
which takes input from the senses
body is a sophisticated but illusory machine
a hologram within a earth-universe hologram
this hologram switches on-off continuously
at a speed of micro seconds ... so we cannot sense it
just like a movie which comprises individual frames run at fast speed
thus we are here only half the time
where are we the other half
well we prodigal souls live within Beloved God
Beloved God lives in us
we are a microcosm of the macrocosm
a dew drop of the Ocean of Love
a spark of the ineffable flame
we are spirit ... immortal prodigal souls ... having a transitory human experience
So Yes we need a perfect Master ... he is the kindergarten – primary - high school teacher
When ready ... one then graduates to University with the inner Shabd Master
So Yes ... we need a perfect Master ... he is the kindergarten - primary - high school teacher ...
when ready ... soul graduates to University ... with the inner Shabd Master
One cannot escape from Beloved God ... for we are within him
Consider has your mind brought you on to a road of suffering
you have been initiated ... so all’s not lost ... just a temporary diversion
finally consider: is this only for those with inner eyes to see ... inner ears to hear
Our soul journey: Awareness > Awakening > Understanding > Compassion > Forgiveness > Love > Gratitude > Surrender > Detachment > Transparency > Patience > Contentment > Peace > Joy
Peace be with you in the Light of Beloved God’s Unconditional Everlasting Love: Beloved BE: www.spiritus.com.au
Posted by: John Soulman (pseudonym) | August 01, 2015 at 03:15 PM
Am now aware but NOT surprised that
negative forces are endeavoring to keep
people away from www.spiritus.com.au
strangely have had NO other reports of this per below
I just tried to check out his website and
got this message
"Your connection is not private.
Attackers might be trying to steal your
[the spiritus link mentioned above]"
Posted by: John Soulman (pseudonym) | August 01, 2015 at 03:38 PM
Hello Brian ... have requested all our readers to comment on this strange message encountered by Jen ... unanimously they have NEVER had this experience ... so ball back to you Jen !
try for yourself www.spiritus.com.au
Posted by: John Soulman (pseudonym) | August 02, 2015 at 03:28 PM
Hi John Soulman,
Interesting that no-one else has experienced the same when accessing your site.
Who knows why? I'm not going to try again. I spoke with my internet provider and we checked and updated my security.
No problems brother. I've been a long time satsangi and experienced some glitches in the space time fabric before :) Peace and love to you.
Posted by: Jen | August 02, 2015 at 04:06 PM
Hi John Soulman,
People believe what they want to believe. It becomes their reality because they want to believe it so much. Sant mat is such a belief. When your parents and grandparents may have followed this teaching all their life - it takes a lot of courage to admit that they might all be deluded.
That is why the believers club together at regular meeting they call satsangs which are really just belief reinforcing meetings to make sure you get your regular dose of new stories to keep you on the path.
They all so desperately want to believe that the master will come and save them.
Now even their own master says in plain english that "No master will come at death".
He even explains why by saying that if there is only ONE - then nobody can come or go and there is nobody to come for!
Of course the satsangis have no idea what he is talking about and carry on believing.
Posted by: OshoRobbins | August 05, 2015 at 04:08 PM
As a fellow scientist of the soul (perhaps in temporary remission like Brian)
~ Have YOU gone inside-met the inner Shabd Master ? ... suspect not !
~ When-where did YOU hear Babaji say "No master will come at death” ... if not what is your source for this ? ... suspect it is a community legend
~ Am not a intergenerational satsangi ... prior to my epiphany had only one exposure ... a book
~ You contend where there is only ONE – then nobody can come or go ... there is nobody to come for!
Consider ... are we prodigal souls an essence of the supreme Essence ... a drop of the Ocean of Love ... an emanation of Sat Purush-Father-Soul Creator ...
are we an aspect of the ONE Father that has been temporarily separated from his essence ... thus your conjecture is erroneous! ... please read my previous posting
is it YOUR mind ... an aspect of negative force Kal ... which is deceiving you ! ... do the work ... Fathers Grace will come if you are serious!
But are you serious Osho ? ... or are you an aspect of the great deceiver ... read Ocean of Love by Kabir ! .... AWAKEN to who you truly are .
Posted by: John Soulman (pseudonym) | August 06, 2015 at 12:44 PM
Osho is a sanyassi from Raneesh, Oregon and not a Satsangi
So , he can't know a syllabe about all this.
Also he has n"t read much here
At initiation the Master comes and stays
Millions of Satsangis see This visual representation ( Dhyan ) of the Sound 24/7, and hear the Shabd
but those whose attention during life were to diverted
will, . . like any dying person : contracting consciousness , and be aware of what already was the case.
Congruently they will hear the sound loud and clear
Posted by: 777 | August 06, 2015 at 03:38 PM
777 and John Soulman,
You are both wrong – and could not be more wrong!
I was into sant mat at the age of 10. It was all my life was all about. I went on a personal mission to get to “Sach Khand” – and everything I am saying is from personal experience. I went to many sant mat masters and spent time with them personally. That’s a lot more than most satsangis can say.
I spent years in long meditation, saw the radiant form and had many experiences. I am not a student of Osho and have never met him. That’s just the name I sometimes use because it represents the middle ground between east and west.
Now let me address some specific questions asked by John
1. When/ where did YOU hear Babaji say “No Master will come at death”?
Well here’s the answer: I heard it first hand – not once but many times. And if you’re not hearing it then clearly you are not listening to him. I have created a video on Youtube in which I cover these points in detail – Brian had a whole series on Sant Mat 1.0 2.0 3.0
Check out the three videos I made for yourself: link to the first one here
I don’t contend there is only one – your master does! If you doubt it - ask him for yourself. He is fond of quoting Paltu Sahib: Paltu Ikoi Ikk hai Dusar Nahin Koi
“Paltu – there is only OINE – there is no other!”
777: I am not a sanyassi from Rajneesh (Aka Osho)
And I know more than a syllable about sant mat. I used to be an appointed speaker for RSSB and here is a link to an actual satsang in Birmingham UK.
I realized that RSSB is full of politics and power hungry idiots. The people at the ‘top’ were desperate to stop me from doing satsangs because I did not suck up to the people at the top. In fact my father openly challenged the family that runs the UK RSSB by accusing them of corruption and favouritism (which was true). In the days of Charan Singh, the indian sangat was not allowed to attend the English satsangs when Charan Singh visited the UK – as these were small sessions for the English sangat only. My father attended and was stopped from entering by Gurchetan Singh (the only boss at the time, his sons were just kids). My father asked why his family members and personal friends have ‘passes’ to attend? This is not seva but an abuse of his position. When he still refused to allow my father to enter – my father said – Let’s go right now and ask Master if he is aware of special passes being issued. At this he let him in. This is the real reason they did not want me doing satsangs. Not that it mattered to me – I just did them for entertainment purposes anyway. I really didn’t care if they banned me – because it did not matter to me. I wasn’t doing satsangs to get any spiritual
Posted by: OshoRobbins | August 06, 2015 at 05:19 PM
Hello Osho have viewed your 4 videos
~ The satsang you gave (part 1) is excellent … is there a part 2 ? … do you have a transcript please so it can be distributed
~ The 3 videos on Sant Mat Version 1 and Version 2 … you spoke well and clearly … but were perhaps disadvantaged by your visuals … is there also a transcript for these please
~ Brother you are on the right track … but perhaps it needs to be expressed in a different way
~ The points you make are valid … but am concerned about your Satangi sources understanding of what Babaji actually said … presumably there are no recordings?
~ Overall we agree … which you will see if you reread my previous posts.
Have you written to Babaji and received a reply ?
Posted by: John Soulman (pseudonym) | August 07, 2015 at 12:17 AM
Hello Brian have now had time to examine your article.
We are both Scientists of the Soul (you though may be in temporary remission) ... lets look at what you said ...
BH: I have not viewed the inner Shabd Master
JS: Am paraphrasing you from the article now Brian ... “this is YOUR experience”
BH:Demonstrable evidence of this actually happening is, charitably, slim. More accurately, I'd say, non-existent.
JS: What would you regard as demonstrable evidence of my inner experiences ... for example would you regard being verified by different psychics as demonstrable evidence ?
If so am able to provide that kind of evidence !
BH: I am an “Atheist”
JS: So what demonstrable evidence have you that God>Light>Sound>Consciousness does not exist ?
BH: By and large I agree with Sam Harris
JS: So do I ... not because I am a scientist ... but because it was published in Newsweek ! ...
the reason why the negative forces published it, and the book, is because the experience of being drawn to the light is what they want to subconsciously plant in peoples minds.
Consider is going into the light at death what draws souls back into the reincarnation-karma retention system of Universal Mind Negative Force !
Posted by: John Soulman (pseudonym) | August 07, 2015 at 12:32 AM
"Light came from Sound" ( St John )
There are myriads of phenomenae coming from The primordial Sound
That s why BabaJi said : "Stop making movies al the time
in meditation and listen, just try to listen !"
When hearing , if it be the great roaring or the tiny sweet like the bees
the bells or the flute
it cannot be subject to comparisons and rises of egos
It's really fabulous this path and the ways how ego has no chance at all
I m appreciating very much how BabaJi from the start
used modern ways of explanation
The former explanations were the best the people of those times could understand
and in many societies still is
Osho,. . this is really a sad story , the way your family suffered
I know only of one indian person 'claiming that he was initiated at the age of 10 ( by Sawan Singh )
In your place I would stop this mind-disturbing judgements on Gurinder
and try to hear the Holy Sound ( WITH the 5 words : against illusions )
It would give total peace and Love
Posted by: 777 | August 07, 2015 at 02:36 PM
You say "the reason why the negative forces published it, and the book, is because the experience of being drawn to the light is what they want to subconsciously plant in peoples minds.
Consider is going into the light at death what draws souls back into the reincarnation-karma retention system of Universal Mind Negative Force !"
Interesting comment about the light at death. I have been hearing about the 'false' light which attracts people at death. Is this what you mean about drawing us back into the reincarnation-karma system of the negative power?
Osho, really enjoyed your videos :)
Posted by: Jen | August 07, 2015 at 03:17 PM
Yes Jen !... some tips
in Meditation beware
Dark Blue-Indigo light is Kal
Gold-yellow light is Maya
these invariably come from the left
don't be distracted ... simran simran simran
think of meditation purely as DEVOTION
have NO Expectations
with effort comes GRACE
it may takes minutes - years or a lifetime
as we all have different karma
make the decision to med once NOT daily
persistence persistence persistence
soul self is waiting to soar!
Posted by: John Soulman (pseudonym) | August 07, 2015 at 11:26 PM
I tried to listen on youtube as far as I could
I'm from France and they say here :
"C'est le ton qui fait la musique"
I hope and trust you too will hear it yourself after all these years
I think what happened is a giant act of Grace to you
May Grace continue to rain on you Sir,
Posted by: 777 | August 08, 2015 at 10:42 AM
This is part 2 of the talk I gave in Bham
As you are aware, Babaji does not allow recordings – so no, unfortunately there aren’t any. However, there were thousands of people who heard what He said on that day.
One person asked this question: “Babaji, please don’t break our heart by constantly saying to us that you will not come at the time of death”. And he added that Sawan Singh used to say that the guru who will not come at death – I give him a salaam (wave) from far away, meaning that I have nothing to do with such a guru.
This was Babaji’s reply: “Please try to understand what I am saying. If a master comes – then you are in duality. In the state of oneness – no master or anyone else can come and there is nobody to come for. Once you reach the state of oneness – you will not ask about anyone coming.”
I have also personally asked questions that he has replied to very directly. For example, I said “My God is HERE.” His reply “my God is also here” I said “No, the God of sant mat lives in Sach Khand. You have to leave the body and go through the four regions before you reach Sach khand where He (sat purush) lives.
His reply (to me), “There are no regions, that is just a way of explaining the states of realization and awareness you go through. The regions are not literal, just levels of consciousness. “
777: my family did not suffer – I simply related the story to explain the politics that run at the heart of the organisation.
Posted by: OshoRobbins | August 09, 2015 at 07:13 PM
As am being blocked from your latest article am posting it here !
Jen is right
but Brian you won’t listen will you
one learns Truth
by the seemingly easy left hand road
which merely leads one to perdition
Brian you have already had some hard lessons
consider ... are you a spiritual masochist?
regardless you cannot escape Beloved once you’ve been initiated !
just going to do it the hard way!
Beloved BE Radhasoami
Posted by: John Soulman (pseudonym) | August 09, 2015 at 11:53 PM
I think : Brian will be fine
My and his Master showing no single trace of irritation
For many this blog is part of building on rocks
a favorite subject of Huzur Maharaji Charan Ji
as Osho paraphasing confirmed above :
Heaven is a state of consciousness as hell is , and they seem to ‘materialize'
which can happen on several different levels
But the tremendous power of the original Soul
acting on that very high level as It wants creates a 'time’_’space' environment called Sach Khand ,
Called Anami or The 7th Heaven
THE REALLY EXIST, seen from below.
like the mind does / copies a much less perfect on a lower level
Soul makes any 'place' , region, the islands from Adi Granth
Soul is eternal
It does what it wants, no need to die for that;
Sant Mat learns how to 'have done' it, . . . NOT How to do it.
The difference between the One-ness of The Saints/Sound vs
is that The Saints_Sound-Combi are is so terrifically lovable that it’s easy to be bewitched,
to lose your own identity by Love
Posted by: 777 | August 10, 2015 at 02:21 PM
"But the tremendous power of the original Soul acting on that very high level as It wants creates a 'time’_’space' environment called Sach Khand..."
I now question the fact that having been initiated by Charan who was from the line of Masters from the original, Soami Ji, who discovered or created that 'time / space' environment called Sach Khand.
After following this path diligently for many years, now I am more into Sovereignty and am seeking my own true self, in other words merging with the One original source and my doubts now are about this region called Sach Khand, which may not really be the original and ultimate source, but some kind of spiritual region which Soami Ji merged with and/or created? Another trap? Everything is so illusory *sigh*
Posted by: Jen | August 11, 2015 at 04:47 PM
The original sant mat teachings are duality teachings. They propose there is an 'entity' known as 'Sat Purush' who resides in a place called 'Sach Khand'. It also states that there are four other regions on the way to Sach Khand. Each region has a 'Lord' and the password to be allowed to go beyond each region is the name of that lord.
This is a fairy tale. It is food for the mind. It is pure fantasy. Yet the followers assumed it was the truth, literally.
I once asked a question of Babaji, which was a riddle.
My question was this: "When I was younger, I thought if I meditate, I will cross the regions and meet Sat Purush and we will sit and drink tea and talk about old times. Now that I have arrived, I realize that meditation was not necessary because no 'doing' is required and I did not meet Sat Purush because he is not a person and he doesn't drink tea and there were no 'old times' to talk about because there is no time.
This is a riddle. In fact all of Sant mat is a riddle to be solved. However anyone who is seriously meditating and trying to keep the vows is on a hiding to nowhere.
Once you go beyond the duality of the teachings, you can see that there is a different truth behind them.
It is like the teachings are hinting at something subtle, like a zen koan.
A zen koan is illogical to the mind but can be solved only by going beyond the struggle of trying to solve it.
example of a koan:
There is a goose in a glass bottle. It cannot come out of the top of the bottle as it is too narrow. You are not allowed to break the bottle or kill/cut the goose. How do you get the goose out of the bottle?
I won't give the answer here - but see if you can solve it. disciples meditate for many years on it.
Your 'True Self' which you seek is not something that can be pointed to. It does not exist as a separate entity.
The ego is an illusion that there 'is' a YOU as a separate soul. The truth is that your ego was created in your childhood and so it is part of the illusion called maya.
Once in this illusion, you are trapped because you are asking about ME. There is no ME! You do not exist, so the question of "What will happen to ME after death" is nonsense because you are an illusion.
It is like a dream character asking a question in the dream: "What will happen to me once this dream is over and the dreamer awakens? Where will I go and will I be saved?"
The question is absurd because the dream character is unreal and a fiction. The dream character exists only in the dream, as a fictional character of the dreamer.
In the same way - you are a fictional character of the dreamer and this is a dream known as maya. Once you 'awaken' (and you can awaken now, no effort is needed - just an insight), you will realize that you are the dreamer. Nobody will survive the dream. There is no time and there is no space and nothing happens. All happening is within time and space. Then you see that this is all just a game and death does not exist. Only the unreal dies. This is what krishna was explaining to Arjun.
Posted by: OshoRobbins | August 11, 2015 at 10:10 PM
Thanks Osho, for the great reply. I am slowly unravelling my old belief system and letting it go.
Yes the old teachings have been duality teachings. What a shift in consciousness now (for me) with Babaji talking about no master coming at death and that the regions are not literal, just levels of consciousness.
Whew, no more expectations and no pressure. No more searching for my true self! It is what it is.
Just wondering.. how to shrink the goose in the bottle.. :)
Posted by: Jen | August 12, 2015 at 12:54 AM
(I almost typed Zen!)
A zen koan is illogical to the mind but can be solved only by going beyond the struggle of trying to solve it.
example of a koan: There is a goose in a glass bottle. It cannot come out of the top of the bottle as it is too narrow. You are not allowed to break the bottle or kill/cut the goose. How do you get the goose out of the bottle?
So - the answer.
remember the zen koan is not about logic and no amount of logic can solve the koan.
It alos cannot be explained because explanation is about logic and of the mind.
The answer comes from an Insight and an insight cannot be given - it has to come from within the disciple.
The answer is:
The goose is not inside the bottle - it just THINKS it is.
Now that is not a logical answer - but it comes from the realization that all your problems are self created. There are no problems except those you think into creation.
Once you realize that you are creating your own version of reality - you can let it go and the goose is out of the bottle because it was never inside.
Enlightenment is not about achieving or attaining to some high elevated state or to have a personal audience with God or Sat Purush. That's just what the old sant mat taught us, and we spent our whole life trying to quiet the mind, meditate and leave the body to go to the Astral region, meet the radiant form of the master and then go through all the regions to arrive at our destination of Sach Khand and we will then remain there forever.
The reality is that there is not ME in the first place hence nobody to liberate. What I call ME is a creation of my own mind. Of course a body was born - and there was a mind - then 'I' figured out that there was a ME here and there were OTHERS over there.
The ego got created. Now I become 'spiritual' and try to lose the ego. However, you cannot lose something you don't have in the first place.
The ego is fiction and you are trying to lose what is fictional.
That is what the zen koan is about. What you are trying to do is absurd and impossible. You cannot possibly get the goose out of the bottle because how the heck did it get there in the first place. It didn't because it's not in the bottle.
You don't need to be saved.
You cannot be saved.
Because there is no ego - it is pure fiction.
Now this can be BAD news or GOOD news depending on how you see it.
in Reality it is neither good nor bad. Because in order for the GOOD or BAD to exist you must first have a point of view and a goal, and a belief system
BAD news version:
Oh Shit! so I can't possibly be saved. Holy crap, I'm doomed. So no master or anyone can save me. I will not survive my death - that real bad news
GOOD news version:
Hey - I am free. I am enlightened. I finally made it. I solved it and I am enlightened. I realized there is no ME. What a fucking attainment - can I have my medal now?
There is no separate self. There never was. So nobody is going to be reborn. You are the ONE because the ONE is all there is!
YOU cannot attain enlightenment because there is nobody there in the first place.
reminds me of another zen koan:
A tree in a forest falls, but there is nobody to witness it. What sound does it make?
Posted by: OshoRobbins | August 13, 2015 at 08:14 AM
Osho, you make some good points. Its nice to get to the stage of there is actually nothing to worry about, to do or to realise and just to be present. Its a really good feeling. Cheers bro.
Posted by: Jen | August 13, 2015 at 10:24 PM
The explanations here
are about advaita, non-duality, feel like Mr Tony Mooj
trying to re-live re-vive the old Shankara Enigma as precisely mentioned
in Sar Bachan , . .
in former Yugas valuable via ascese leading to some awareness what they call enlightenment
Thes methods theoretically can unit a soul with the astral 1/7 under_deity Brahm c q Yahweh, Wodan, Zeus etc
Sant Mat uses LOVE, and nothing else
as The Ultimate Almighy Lovable wants only Love
On whatever level of compassion ( empathy is a must ) you are
each of us can connect with the sweet precious sound which is and always was
It will make you forget all, . . I will not say : non-sense but : non-reachable
quests towards the first region ( where most will go anyway )
The Love way, by unifying , reverberating with :
-the tremendous Sound ,
( tiny in the beginning ) and
-Those who are already in It, ( The Saints ),
-and the reverberating Mantra,
all this is One and LOVE
Take this opportunity as long as it"s available in your actual form
and with the actual help
You will never understand the above Goose or Schroedingers cat
and if you do the gain is a hollow gain
Posted by: 777 | August 14, 2015 at 04:46 AM
Where better than here (for lack of another place)
If you plan on visiting Hostel 6 at Dera and wish to not travel alone on the train -but want to be there first when the session starts- :-):
Overnight train ticket available for the October '15 Dera session.
1st Class AC Delhi to Beas
Arrives around 5am Oct 15 at Beas Station.
The lady who was traveling with me cannot go. (I guess we request a name change for the ticket?)
Posted by: Saff | August 14, 2015 at 03:43 PM
There is a BIG difference between belief and reality. Sant mat is a belief system as is Islam and all other religions.
The followers of all religions consider their teachings to be the truth when in fact they are not.
Muslims say you MUST pray. Five times a day
Sikhs say you must recite the five scriptures daily
Sant mat followers say you must do simran and listen to the Shabd
All are mistaken
Bullah shah says I did not pray five times
Neither did I bathe in the river Ganges which Hindus say will clean your soul
Yet he says he met God (figuratively speaking)
All religions will have a problem with bullah shah's claim
Because what he says appears impossible
Kabir says that I looked for God and could it find him
Then he gives the key to finding God
He says that God came only when I went
He is saying that it is a prerequisite that I disappear before God makes an appearance
It is essential that the ego or the 'I' goes before God comes
In fact the two are synomonous
Me going is the same as God coming
So the meeting never happens
You cannot meet God because you are the barrier
Posted by: Osho Robbins | August 14, 2015 at 06:31 PM
I said here all the time : Only knowing for sure can be it.
Amazed an ex*satsangi like you descended to such a rigid B/W standpoint.
When I got my first tiny portion of bliss, I wrote a recommended letter to Beas
saying Now I found YOU, . . I don't need God anymore
Posted by: 777 | August 15, 2015 at 04:30 AM
You commented -
"I spent years in long meditation, saw the radiant form and had many experiences. I am not a student of Osho and have never met him. That’s just the name I sometimes use because it represents the middle ground between east and west. "
and in other threads you have mentioned that you have been initiated by several masters.
Just curious, which master's radiant form did you see?
Gurinder, Charan, Thakar, Rajinder, etc.?
Posted by: Anonymous | October 04, 2016 at 08:33 PM