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January 05, 2015


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The deep irony here, of course is that the very founder of Radhasoami, Shiv Dayal Singh, smoked daily (using his huqqa pipe) and used paan (a mild narcotic). There are even poems about it in Sar Bachan Poetry (in the Agra editions).

Hey Brian,

Another great controversial post you've created! Just to kick off this conversation, the readers may or may have not noticed the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), an India-based religious organization has updated there web site, which I was told the Master Baba ji affectionately called, didn't want internet for there organizations many years ago, when put forward, I may be wrong on this but hopefully someone in authority can enlighten on this.



If you were appointed for training
the US national basket ball team
would you not adapt the rules
depending on what you read or
experience yourself ?

Now Gurinder certainly had some standpoint altering experiences
while in the Singapore hospital
I don’t know if He ever smoked Himself
but I do know that for simple Hatha Yoga , creating
damage to the lungs is ill advised

You need also reread what I stated a year ago
about the GIHF stuff
Disciples may experience God, Light and unbelievable Sound in them,
but He Himself is in many/most cases NOT aware at all
He follows Charan's written wishes

It was the answer on my own problem years ago
about spirital heretage book
and asking myself :
When Nanak says :”To Them, who hear the Name of the Lord, , , , whole nature is in Blossom and Bloom “
I thought : How come that Charan seemed , even declared in the book depressive moments”

The above is the answer :
The sure thing they have as experience inside themselves is How low they are.
Disciples may have a magnificent time and use the Satguru as a kind of transformer to reach extase
The Sarguru is not so lucky
He has compensations that just prevent running away from all these crazy (first/second life) satsangis.
Like any satsangi They have their super moments ( in cycles always ) - Hence Gurinder hardly able to stop singing

“With a little help of my friends”

(4th life) Disciples might hear the sweet sound 24/7 and see God in everything and concentrated in this Servant

The Satguru might have that the last year/week of his life, lets hope much more so

Nothing is fixed or frozen in Sant Mat

I agree we had very soft times in the seventies <3

Good day Brian

So the smoking of the peace pipe is okay in Oregon?

777, OK, so now the guru who used to be "perfect" and "god in human form" is just like us?

Great news. That's certainly true. But for a long time devotees believed that the RSSB guru had special wisdom and powers.

Now, as you said, we know that the guru goes through life making mistakes and learning like everybody else. Which raises the question: what makes the guru different from everybody else?

Answer: nothing. So I'll take my heath advice from heath experts, not the guru.

Haha that is a nice reaction

You remember certainly Faqir Chand
He said what you say more or less

You both are Souls with a long history.

The point is that God has protected Himself against
cleverness, high IQ's sense of power, in short : ego

It is not that a Satguru is stupid

Where comes the NON-OBJECTIVE Wisdom from ?

Nothing else than what You Brian experiences in your life
when you had a fruitful intuition and you thought :
"Where the hell did that come from"

This faculty of intuition can develop amazingly
like Mozart had for notes : Einstein for Math
He didn't pass highs cool neither did many great inventors

Niels Bohr said he dreamed the atom theory

Intuition come to us through the chakras; any chakra
but when it's a high one the value is greater
the Highest is used for stuff Very High

When I said here : God has no IQ , , , angels have big figures
it's not that He detests cleverness , No He knows that there are a trillion
double*triple and quadruple DNA Helixes with their sciences
HE finds that boring

HE want just Love

He is ONLY interested in Love the slightest trace of love
( for humans : Compassion without agendas )
and He starts moving
helps the soul to develop that

HE is the exponential multiplier of Love like
when we give Love to a soul you end up with much more (Mirdad)

Therefore on this planet He practice a system of help
from an older or wiser brother - gives intuitions
One who uses his intuitions to the utmost and strange miraculous
synchronities° occur around such Guides ( and those who like Him )

My Submission " is the title
of Sawan's 'Philosophy'
It's difficult - I can't , nobody can,
only this exponential Love can do

- but when submission is total
you have to do with a GIHF

Neither The Guide nor We can judge when that exist
When we are lucky, , , , we love HIM
If not , , , , please ask the for the Love
It's the only stuff we take with us
Ask for the Shabd - He grants everything

"He is the well-wisher of the Jeeva ( Nanak )"


You said :
"Great news. That's certainly true. But for a long time devotees believed that the RSSB guru had special wisdom and powers. ""

That comes from disciples who see Him
while He radiates brilliant diamond Light
and more
Those who enter a very hight state
observing that "HE" c.q. 'SHE' ( what was thought the Guide )


I really wish that my enlish was better

is really the Ultimate Creator with vibrations that cannot be explained,

remember your all time best love Brian
This unification with God/TGIHF surpasses that to the power of trillion
One can hardly survive 'seeing' that

777 you say: "I thought : How come that Charan seemed , even declared in the book depressive moments”

"My Submission " is the title
of Sawan's 'Philosophy'
It's difficult"

"The Sarguru is not so lucky
He has compensations that just prevent running away from all these crazy (first/second life) satsangis."

"(4th life) Disciples might hear the sweet sound 24/7 and see God in everything and concentrated in this Servant"

Well then.. crazy first/second lifers.. okay for 4th lifers... Great. Very uplifting NOT, still a hierarchy it seems.

It sounds too depressing - especially this kind of love..

Maharaj Charan Singh Ji: Q&A Pain of Separation (Bireh)


where a hapless waiter would be asked detailed probing questions about what kind of cheese was put on a pizza ...quote Brian

I am a waiter and we are there to serve our custumers..one doesnt understand this is not waiter..if it is not cheese it is something else ...we run constantly for wine..meat..salt .oepper name it it is our job...we waiters should try to understand our custumers and serve them no matter who us...vegan raw foodist..meat eater..paleo...macro..omni...

A post comprised of the older post/comments on older post ? Why ?
(that's a question of a reader to an author)

So, 35 years of following and 10 years of unfollowing!
Do you realise that even for unfollowing for 10 years, you are not able to refrain yourself from thinking about it ?
Even while unfollowing what is reflected in the posts is that you are still following it extremely closely.
And there is a BIG reason for that which you might not agree to at this point of time.

In general though, smoking by any means is real bad for heath. So it's great to not to smoke for the body which is here and also for which isn't.

As always, super stuff from you.
Felt very good to read long satisfying text after such long time.

The pain of separation really almost kills. You tend to cry every single minute when you are awake. Only one thing in the whole universe and beyond can fulfil your heart is meeting the one you are longing for.

As far as Babaji are concerned, He is an awesome personality. He radiates the oceans of Love. disciple is required to uplift his/her state to be able to feel/hear/see it.

lots of Love to everyone here and else.

One Initiated

Observer said :
""ill a hierarchy it seems." , , , ,
just like high school


Bireh , , , like a first crush and (s)he is away
and it hurts

One initiated, the blog post was from November 2014. The comments were from two days ago, January 5, 2014.


I make fun of RSSB from time to time when someone brings some new religious bit of humor to my attention. I don't seek this stuff out. I just read comments and get emails.

If I'd been a devoted Catholic for 35 years, I'd be making fun of Catholicism. I just know the religious ins and outs of RSSB better than that of any other dogma.

"The pain of separation really almost kills. You tend to cry every single minute when you are awake."

Yes, I've done this. Reflecting on my life since becoming initiated when I was very young, observing the influence of Sant Mat and how it affected my life, understanding this feeling of separateness and longing to become something more. Now it seems so wrong.

So silly, its not something 'out there' separate from us. No more being a victim and giving away my power.

Good for Gurinder updating the teachings, even though he is more strict. Glad that he sings and makes jokes and has a more positive approach.

Good for Gurinder updating the teachings

Gurinder is fullashit.

The big difference is there in the understanding when you say:
"Yes, I've done this"

I would conclude it as:
"It was being done to you"

If it's not being done anymore to someone, means the bliss is not there for that person anymore.
Precisely again, bliss remains intact, the person has moved far from it to be able to feel what's being done in that aura.

It is as simple as going near to a bonfire, where we feel the pleasant warmth just by going near to it, and what all we have done is we just went near... as much as we move away from it, we start to feel there is no warmth and what not. Just that bonfire is controlled and bearable whereas that's just unbearable for which you and I felt the same.

"like a first crush and (s)he is away and it hurts"
that's a beautiful expression, it was exactly as that when it started and much more than that now.

One Initiated

Still being in the unfollowing mode, why don't you plan to visit Dera, for the sake of fun and like just another trip!

The Dera has been improved in every sense. It's all green and very soothing everywhere.

I am sure for anyone, who has not visited the place in last 10-15 years, will get amazed by the noticeable improvements and sheer positivity of the place.
Even not being/thinking anything spiritual, it's become a great place to have an outing and a calm life for a few days from the regular city life.

Also, wish you and everyone else a very happy and healthy times ahead :)

One Initiated


I see David Lane has commented here, and perhaps he will see this comment of mine here. I welcome this chance of addressing two prominent RSSBers (using the term “RSSBer” loosely to mean not so much “followers of RSSB” as people generally associated with and knowledgeable about RSSB) at one go : I mean Brian himself, and David as well. As well, of course, as others associated with RSSB.

I’ve wondered about this earlier, and I’d like to ask this out again. My question is : Have either of your directly voiced your doubts to the RSSB Babaji?

I’ve corresponded with Brian a few times, and he knows where I’m coming from, but lest others here mistake this comment for an RSSB-follower’s trolling protest, let me put in this disclaimer : I am not associated with RSSB. I’ve widely read about this movement thanks to Brian’s blog (and people’s comments here), but prior to visiting this site I wouldn’t even have associated the acronym RSSB with the Beas organization (although I was aware of the organization). So : this is NOT a protest, but a simple question.

Here’s where I was coming from. The RSSB Babaji is a teacher/guru of wide renown and following, deservedly or otherwise. We all have to give him that. He also does speak out and answer questions, right? So, when you have access to a teacher, and you have questions regarding the subject he’s teaching, wouldn’t it be the most natural thing in the world to simply voice your questions directly to the teacher? (There’s no need to take his answer as gospel truth, as blind followers would, that goes without saying. But why not ask?)

This comment/suggestion of mine will apply to all RSSB followers, of course : but I address it primarily to the two prominent RSSBers I see here now (Brian himself, and David Lane), since I expect the RSSB organization and/or the guru will not be able to simply ignore or sidestep direct questions from you two as easily as they might ignore or sidestep questions from your garden variety correspondents. You two have a much higher chance of getting a direct reply from the guru.

There are so many very valid questions you’ve all brought up here, re. this particular faith. To take three that come to mind as I type : (1) Why proscribe smoking for followers, when the founder himself was a smoker? (2) How can past laid-in-stone rules and tenets be now altered, when the guru-hood of the present guru is directly derived from those past tenets? Wouldn’t that invalidate the very guru-hood of the guru? And (3) Followers who’ve invested not just years but actually decades in faithfully meditating per prescription, are they justified in quitting this as a failed experiment? (I well know from past posts and comments what RSSB followers will say to that last question, and also what the anti-RSSB camp will ; and indeed also what my own simple common-sense answer would be if someone were to ask me this question : but it would be fascinating to know what the Principal of this School has to say.)

These, and many others, are your own questions, that I’ve read here. I was saying, have you directly asked these questions of the guru? If you haven’t, would you? We’d love to know what answer you get, if any.

Quote x.
Gurinder is fullashit

...like you!

Dear Appreciative Reader,

Thanks for your comment and your questions. I understand what you are saying. In my own case (Brian, I know, can articulate his own reply quite reasonably), I have voiced my objections for many years about why I felt uncomfortable or out of sync with Gurinder's tenure. Now, this may simply be due to my own personality and my own issues, but I have noticed that quite a few others have similar objections. While Gurinder appears to be a tremendously skilled organizer and appears to have wonderful architectural tastes, I didn't appreciate his missives in the latter part of the 1990s trying to control the free flow of information amongst satsangis about using the Internet, specifically about issues of great concern about R.S. history and theology. I was myself on the receiving end of countless letters worldwide trying to get me "off" the net, even though most of my academic writings and books (including work done on my M.A. and Ph.D.) had to do with the sociological and historical analysis of R.S., particularly its succession episodes. These hundreds of satsangis would never have acted that way if Gurinder would have better understood how the Web was evolving and how freedom of expression is vital for a group NOT to become cultic. I did, in fact, write to Gurinder about the Internet as far back as 1995. I also raised other issues in a private meeting with him in Austin, Texas, back in 1994. It dawned on me quite early on that Gurinder and I didn't have a mind meld, and that he wanted to control R.S. much more absolutely than had his predecessor. Given the vast numbers, this might be understandable. However, something has seemed amiss to me almost from the beginning. This is not to say that Gurinder and Charan are somehow spiritually or ontologically different (they are just human beings doing the best they see fit), but it was impossible, try as I might, for my square peg to fit into Gugu's round circle. The real problem, I believe, is that there is far too much hype in R.S. theology about the "guru" being perfect, such that no one really wants to pull the curtain and simply state the obvious, which is that (as Nietzsche might say) these gurus are "human, all too human." Gurinder is well aware of my views (he even advised one representative to tell me to get off the net) and he is well aware that I fundamentally disagreed with his soft defense of Sai Baba when asked in a private meeting about why I was criticizing such a guru), so I don't think my questions now would have any impact. Now, let me back peddle a bit, and say that Gurinder is in an almost impossible situation, since there is no way he is going to please everyone, especially those who take a Faqir Chand view of things. So, on one level, I get what he is trying to do and maybe it is just my problem. And on another level, I think we have to be true to our own sense of right and wrong and our own integrity, even if it goes against the grain of a tradition we deeply love. Brian Hines has done a most remarkable job in voicing the concerns of many of us who feel that R.S. needs more critics and that Radhasoami would be better served if it lessened the hype about its gurus. For all the rhetoric bantering about that Gurinder has changed the teachings, the fact remains that the books have NOT..... and therein lies the rub. I did see Gurinder this past month in Delhi and was quite impressed by the organization and the kindness of sevadars, but given such huge numbers I don't know if Gurinder has the time or even the inclination to sit down with someone like myself, given that in our previous interview we disagreed about the role of criticism. Thanks.... BTW, I am still a vegetarian and I still meditate daily. I just think the theology needs to be transformed and become more honest.

Quote Dave
Brian Hines has done a most remarkable job in voicing the concerns of many of us who feel that R.S. needs more critics
But Brian became cultic and dogmatic without realizing he is dogmatic..

flee, enlighten me as to what I am "cultic and dogmatic" about.

Science? The scientific method? Facts? Demonstrable evidence? Freedom of expression? Open-mindedness?

I am proud to plead guilty to being deeply committed to each of these, which actually are the opposite of cultic and dogmatic.

Science? The scientific method? Facts? Demonstrable evidence? Freedom of expression? Open-mindedness?

...these are just words..fancy words but to walk them is another story.You are trying but you are not open yet. But one day you will be among us scientists keep going bro.

I'm always amused when people who don't know me claim to know me better than how I know myself, and as how my friends know me.

Just can't please the religious, I guess. I get criticized for being too rational and scientific, and now I'm being criticized for not being rational and scientific enough.

Guess I'll just keep on being who I am. As if I had a choice.

David,said : I am still a vegetarian and I still meditate daily. I just think the theology needs to be transformed and become more honest.

Dear David
Now add some minutes of Sant Mat meditation which is based on LOVE for Charan to what y'r used to

Gurinder advised to seek / listen to the Sound
( how soft/tiny it may be ) 4/5 of the practice
instead of making fims about ourself

At your age , it's even possible you' r taking Shabd as TinnItus
The latter is irritating even painful while the Holy Sound at the right is Sweet

You can check by firmly attaching the 5 words to the feeble tone
and it will swell, generate resonances , accumulate, up to
twister, thunderstorm level somewhat later on
Reducing sense of ourself ( ahankar ) helps too
and you will have no difficulty with that at the end of your life

it's visible within your style here
Then you will see Charan and He will just smile . like any photo of Him does to you when you allow

This Path is of a complete other level than 1+1 & Q&A,

Ever read "Quest for Light" and God Consciousness from
Swami Ram Das, Anandashram, Kanhangat, Kerala, , , ( second region )
Nothing than miracles and synchronizes happened around Him, even at that level , , far above advaita of which the web is full), , , of Love for ParaBrahm ( Ram )

Our Path IS big fun and awesome and millions of initiated analphabetic people
will fullheartly agree.

Lots of Fun and Love


I don't think marvelous Seth Shiv Dayal smoked kief during the years of meditation while piercing through Maha Sunna , with Tulsi Sahib :-) <3

Gurinder advised to seek / listen to the Sound

Gurinder is fullashit.

Dear David,

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. Appreciate it.

I understand that you’ve voiced your concerns many times directly with the Guru himself, and had disagreements directly with him. I now appreciate that you are probably not in his/their best books, despite your undoubted “prominence”. (Probably that, the last bit I mean, may apply to Brian as well : his questions to them too, if raised, may not necessarily be very welcome over there, despite his own prominence and despite having written books for RSSB, given his long and open dissent with the party line. I do see that now.)

Not to drag this on interminably : but I’d like to add two further comments if I may.

First, the part where you say that RSSB needs to water down its theology. I have some reservations about that comment. This theology is allegedly derived via Revelation, via absolute knowledge of absolute reality, right? Therefore, it is what it is. It is not really open to common-sense objections, no more than Relativity or Quantum Mechanics is open to common-sense objections. They’re each of them either right or wrong (as far as we are concerned). I can’t really object to quantum mechanics, saying that Schroedinger’s Cat, for example, doesn’t make sense to me, and ask for the overall quantum mechanics theory to be watered down, can I now? It is what it is, and it is either right or wrong. At my level, that is. A scientist with adequate math and physics may indeed challenge it (and they do, all the time), but that’s a different matter. Similarly with RSSB theology (or any other Revealed theology), or so it seems to me. And of course, I (that is, the layman) is free to “increase his level” by picking up the requisite math and physics (provided his IQ is good enough), just as I can also “increase my level” by meditating etc., that is, by actually participating in the experiment (provided by Spiritual Aptitude—to coin a term, since I don’t know if there is already such a term—is good enough).

Incidentally, I’m not really defending RSSB here. If anything, precisely the contrary. Albeit with an open mind—which is to say, neither a priori objecting to RSSB theology as such, nor a priori defending it, but only enquiring open-mindedly—or so I like to think. (Not that my own humble support or objection carries any significance to them, of course, or to anyone else other than my own self, but still.)

Just like a scientist with the requisite math and physics may challenge the “theology” of quantum mechanics (all of it, or parts of it), so may a mystic with the requisite first-hand mystical experience (assuming there is such a thing as actual mystical experience) question some particular mystical theology. The real question is, how “real” is this theology? If it is “real”, it stays (unchanged and un-watered-down). And if it is not “real”, then out the window it goes. Not just watered down, but discarded entirely.

- - - - -

And my second comment : I’m not complaining or anything, but this does leave my original question unanswered. (Which is fine, not all questions necessarily have answers, or at least immediate answers. Except of course for those that do.) I was curious about the kinds of direct answers this GIHF might give to questions that leave no squirm room. General disagreements there well may be, and aren’t conclusive. The Guru’s ideas about Internet use and online debate, for instance, can be seen as a mere question of strategy and general conduct—his “strategy” and this particular “rule of conduct” turned out flawed, as it happens : but that isn’t really conclusive of anything except to the fundamentalist hardliner who takes the extremist line that the GIHF can never ever dance out of step or sing out of tune, not even one little off-key yodel in his bath. I mean direct questions that tackle the whole issue by the collar : much like Jesus was tackled, or the Buddha was tackled. Having GIHF in our midst makes the whole deal at least somewhat scientific, in my opinion, in the sense of making this falsifiable (unlike the Jesus-religion and such other religions, where the buck stops at a time and place where no man may reach out). One way to falsify this (or “prove” it, at least to some extent) would be to ask the GIHF these questions. Another subjective (and difficult) way of falsification, of course, would be to do the experiment properly and over a long period, as Brian has done, and as I expect you have too. [Incidentally the Buddha himself did artfully wriggle his way out of a good many very valid questions, in my opinion, instead of tackling them directly and manfully, but let’s leave that diversion be for now.]

What I was curious about, to be clear, is what the Guru might answer if he chose to engage directly himself with questions like the following :
(1) You ask followers not to smoke, not as general health advisory but by linking it to the granting of initiation. Yet the founder of your faith smoked. What’s the deal here?
(2) You say your path is experiential. I (not me personally! I mean generally) have meditated for ten years faithfully per prescription. Experiment done, results zero. So the scientific experiment has failed, correct?
(3) How come you’re changing your theology? You derive your position basis that theology, so shouldn’t you resign before you do that, like Jiddu Krishnamurti had done once upon a time?
(4) Can you say, directly and without prevarication, that all this—the meditation, the Sound, the higher dimensions—that you know of them of yourself, from personal experience? Is the answer a Yes or a No?
(5) If the answer to the above question # 4 is No, then thank you for the honest answer, and it it’s been nice knowing you … But if the answer you give is a Yes, then please elaborate some more, and please take some more direct questions.
And even, if you were okay with not being very polite : (6) What’s with the not-quite-illegal but certainly-somewhat-irregular-and-sort-of-underhand Religare deal? Why seek out not just general prosperity but obscene wealth by using means that are, if not illegal, certainly questionable? How does that tie in with the spirituality deal? [I mean asking this not to attack or heckle, but genuinely seeking an answer, genuinely trying to understand.]

I’d meant direct questions like these, and what direct answers (if any) he’d give to them.

Can you recall any such specific exchanges with the Guru, that either you yourself have had, or others did? Where he was faced with a question that could potentially expose him, and which he actually answered directly, and which therefore either did expose him or which (at least to the extent of this question) validated his position?

If you can think of anything of this nature, and are comfortable sharing, I'd be very interested!

Again, thanks for engaging with us here. And best wishes.

Dear Appreciative Reader,

Thanks for your reading my reply and thanks for your most recent comment.

Let me see if I can clarify myself a bit.

I don't think the gurus should "water down" the theology. I think, rather, that some of the theology is wrong and misleading. As much as I admire certain gurus in the Sant Mat tradition, I think using terms over and over such as "perfect master" is in itself cultic and leads to all sorts of abuses, particularly by those within Radhasoami who think that whatever their respective guru says (even if it is completely nuts..... such as Thakar Singh's missive to blindfold children at an early age) they should just suck it up and follow it because their guru is perfect.

When Charan Singh said Shiv Dayal Singh never smoked a huqqa (which he did; it is on tape), then those who think that Charan was perfect must be telling a historical truth. Well, Charan was simply mistaken and he should be called out for that. However, there is a hesitancy among satsangis to do precisely that because the literature repeatedly says "follow the guru's hukum/order." Etc.

Faqir Chand is an important voice here. He was the successor to Shiv Brat Lal, who was connected to Radhasoami's founder via Rai Salig Ram. Faqir points out that the gurus are much more UNKNOWING than they wish to reveal and thus deceive their disciples by not telling them how human they are and how limited their knowledge is. Faqir also points out that religious visions are projections of our own mind and that the guru doesn't know about his appearances to disciples in their meditation and other places.

My point here is that while I do think shabd yoga works (yes, one can have amazing experiences in meditation), it doesn't mean that the theological overlay (or the interpretative nexus given to it) is necessarily correct. Quite the opposite, in point of fact. Going within is a human potential, but what it ultimately means is open to debate. R.S. is far too dogmatic on this point and I don't think it has anything to do with "they have found the truth." No what has happened, at least in my opinion, is that they have conflated the ability to go within and what one sees as some pure transparency to the "truth." Faqir blows this proposition apart, as does the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and a whole slew of materials.

Simply put, the technique of shabd yoga works (at least for me. What doesn't work is the "spin" that is given to what happens within. This is still an open inquiry and so it should be.

Faqir's Unknowing Sage sheds a clearer light on this.

I do agree with you, however, that there should be a fuller engagement of these types of concerns directly with Gurinder.

The drawback is that the vast majority of satsangis are attending his satsang and darshan in a spirit of love and thus a deeply critical discussion is usually cut short by tine considerations and often the guru will disarm the questioner with platitudes or answer in a side-track way..... Understandable, of course, with such large numbers.

Gurinder has such a large following that it makes it really quite difficult to get the quality time to probe these concerns, even though I think you are absolutely right that we should.....

My own experience tells me that nothing is going to change. I will put this very simply. When was the last time a guru at Beas ever admitted to making a fundamental error when it came to the teachings? Do they ever say the previous guru was wrong (about homosexuality, for example)?

I have never heard it, and thus when I hear that R.S. wants to be called a science I know that we are not in Kansas anymore.

Science is predicated on doubt and on admitting mistakes. R.S. gurus, given the hype in the book, just tend not to that....

My wife did ask Gurinder a straight up question about Faqir Chand and what he had exposed, and Gurinder (like other gurus I have heard before) was very very elliptical in his response. In other words, he "new aged" away any clear response.

Difficult to ask serious questions of that "tag you sort" when you are the middle of thousands in a love groove.....

Thanks and feel most free to tag me and keep the discussion going...

""It is not really open to common-sense objections,""

like the mega-super crush of a 12 year old

Who had never received the intuition(s) that this Path is even better, can only yearn for such crushes

Easier than Schroedinger's cat is to ask disciples , ,
at least they are allowed to say they have such a crush
and those who are anonym, that that they see their GIHF
more radiant than thousand Suns ,
event outside meditation

and that the glorious sound vibrations are JUST the GIHF

The kind of curiosity ( in the above list ) alas :-) might kill the cat, , , ,
I guess He doesn't know - and HE is to busy spending his free time
to enjoy the sweetness of his own Muster
That is how it works
Gods anti Ego scheme

But seriously:
I had questions likef this list in the past
and specially about :
"How can the Master refuse giving the treasure of His 5 words to some seeker without being 100% sure,
It would be demonic to exclude such a soul

Then I met a person who asked me questions , while I sensed immediately he had another agenda
each time I met , I had a sense of panic
like : "I must run * really up to goose bumps in a so black negative way

I spare you the rest of an ugly story

I m rather sure there is not always intellect involved in Gurindert's decisions

He should put redbull also on that list :-), , , , but not un bon cafe avant mon meditation

I completely agree with Davids comment about the worldwide satsang ghars
what a super taste of the GIHF
These buildings radiate Darshan as if nothing than angels fly around them

And what a fore-sight , thinking about the future of the planet

Can't you feel it ?


as does the Tibetan Book of the Dead,

A professor should not make such a mistake concerning such a famous bool David

I said it before and please read it yourself

It is in the middle

Those who have practiced meditation in their lifetime
under the guidance of a perfect Saint
They don't need these advises ( as given in the book Bardo Todol )) because they will not be distracted by the boddhisatwas mentioned in these lines (attachments )
and they will be able to grep the light ( JOTY ) at the end of the tunnel immediately

I m paraphrazing

Of course they grep not the Brahma but the light of the first of the 5 words which the SatGuru places before the Brahma Creator without Brahma even being aware of this trick

The same trick' is used at each of the vertical 7 heavens
the disciple doen't need to fight like poor Jacob <3


The Faqir was nicely on his way *
until he placed intellect above intuition
and acted like the disciples , leaving when the master stay to long in the brothel
This can happen to any jeeva below the top of the third ; the entrance of the fourth heaven

This Path is so awesome , , ,


David, my immediate impulse on reading the first part of your response was to repeat my earlier objection : that “we” (meaning laymen) can’t really object to the tenets of a theology basis common sense (be it on homosexuality, or the absolute perfect-ness of a Sheikh or Guru, or the details of the “inner” cosmology), just as we (laymen) cannot, basis our common sense, object to apparently bizarre stuff like the Uncertainty Principle, or the relativity of time, or anti-matter, and so on. Basically what I’d said in the first part of my own earlier comment.

But a moment’s reflection makes me see your comment in a different light. Do correct me if I’m wrong in so interpreting your comment : but I think what you are saying is that you are indeed critiquing the theology not as a layman but as a scientist, as someone who’s put in the requisite work in terms of picking up the math and physics and existing theory (in short, in the capacity of the scientist). In your case, this would translate as someone who’s acquired the book-knowledge, the history of the faith, the details of the theology ; and also, crucially, the meditation ; and also, even more crucially, the actual inner “experiences”. Am I right?

[Quick little on-the-side comment/request while on the matter of your “experiences” : Would you be comfortable sharing those experiences in your own words? Actual personal experiences only, not what’s “supposed to be”? I’d be REALLY interested, fascinated, to be able to learn about that. I understand they ask you not to talk about this sort of thing, and if you’re not comfortable breaking that particular tenet of theirs, then it’s cool. Although I’m hoping you’ll say you find that particular tenet amongst the unreasonable and pointless diktats of RSSB, and that you will be able to relate to us something of what you’ve “seen within”.]

What you’re saying (as I understand it—correct me if I’m wrong) is this : just as in science you have observations, basis which you build hypotheses : thus in this case you have experiences and insights, and basis those experiences and insights you’re building up a theology. So the theology is not “revealed” : what is “revealed” are the experiences and insights (the counterpart of science’s observations), while the theology is the attempted interpretation of those experiences (the hypotheses, in other words). Am I right? And basis your own experiences (as well as what you’ve read, Faqir Chand for instance), you’re questioning elements of the theology. That makes sense to me. Seen in that light, I agree that theology can indeed be changed, watered down, whatever, just as with scientific hypothesis/theory.

This Thakar whom you mention, I’ve come across references to him earlier in Brian’s blog (and in comments to his posts). He’s from another branch, isn’t he, different from Beas? Blindfolding little children sounds fully crazy (not to mention criminal) to me, no matter what the intention, no matter what the context!

Gurinder Singh steadfastly refusing to directly engage with crucial questions, that too appears distinctly fishy! What you say about large numbers and too little time is true I suppose, but surely answering crucial questions squarely is one of the chief functions of the Guru/Sheikh? (Yes, I know about the “inner guidance” theory. I’ll take that with a pinch of salt, unless someone can say that they themselves have received such inner guidance from the Guru. Have you, David?)

Although I suppose there is always the Faqir Chand interpretation of even that inner guidance (should such guidance actually have been forthcoming), so that the “inner Guru” is seen as no more than a mental projection, or something like that. (Yes, I’ve read a bit on Faqir Chand’s experiences and views, after finding out about him from Brian’s blog. Especially that part where his followers say they saw him and were guided and/or helped by him, but Faqir Chand himself did nothing nor was aware of anything of this kind.) In which case clearing people’s genuine doubts (that is to say, teaching) would become one of the prime duties of the Guru, right? Which would make Gurinder Singh’s shying away repeatedly from tough questions look even more suspicious!

And why would someone keep quiet about this? The only answer that suggests itself is : to perpetuate the myth about themselves. That’s plain dishonest and underhand, isn’t it?

What is your own hypothesis on all this, David? What would you say is the role of the Guru, then? You seem to agree with Faqir Chand : in which case, why do we even need a Guru? (I mean Guru as defined by RSSB; there are others that define a Guru merely as a teacher, which is a wholly separate and acceptable definition.) He isn’t GIHF ; he isn’t some kind of supernatural conduit ; so all he is a teacher, right? Can’t you have four of them at the same time, then, or forty? Or none?

Brian’s written a blog post where he links the primacy of the Guru in RSSB to a cultural trope more than anything else. That there is such a cultural trope is very true ; but do you yourself agree that the primacy of Guru is no more than just that? What does your own experience say? Do we really a need a Guru (with capital G) at all (as opposed to just a teacher)? [I’m looking for personal answers, basis personal experience, not pro forma dogma. But I don’t think you’d proffer pro forma dogma anyway, so perhaps that qualification was unnecessary.]

Finally : What do you think of Gurinder Singh, then? You don’t think he’s GIHF, that much is clear from your comment. So what is he then, spiritual adept, or charlatan? Or something in between?

Dear Appreciative Reader:

I loved your latest post since it was so well written and articulate and captured, in essence, what I was thinking. Indeed, I liked your questions so much that I think it deserves a much longer treatment that probably would exceed the bounds of this commentary section. So in that spirit, I am going to write an article in response and when I am done (hopefully this week), I will post a link here.

I really do appreciate the economy of your words and the focus of your questions. They are altogether excellent and definitely need a longer treatment.

More forthcoming.



I really do appreciate the economy of your words...

I really do appreciate your sarcasm, David, seeing as how he's one of the most verbose.

Dear David,

Thanks! Both for your very kind words, and also for agreeing to address all those questions.

I’ll look out for your article.

My best wishes to you.

- - - - -

Dear 777,

I enjoyed your comment. It is evident that what you write comes from the heart.

I am aware of the central role that love, and sometimes even romantic-ish love, plays in Sadhana, per Bhakti tradition, as well as per Sufi tradition. One can appreciate the beauty in such traditions, while still remaining agnostic about the ultimate efficacy and even validity of such methods. (Agnostic about it, I repeat ; not disbelieving of it or presuming to reject it, not by a long shot.)

One quibble, if you don’t mind. You indicate, half-jokingly, that dry rationality is antithetical to that kind of intense love. Here’s how that appears to me, following your own analogy. When a young girl falls violently in love, she may not want to entertain for a minute any doubts about her loved one. But is that wise? The young man in question may be a philandering rogue, or he may be a gold digger who’s out for her money. Or he may be a criminal, or perhaps even (in these dark days) a terrorist. Isn’t it best that the young girl should know this? True, she may choose to continue the relationship despite that knowledge : and that then would be neither good nor bad, but merely her informed decision (as opposed to her being taken for a ride).

And of course, if enquiry proves that the young man is above-board, then it’s all good, and no harm done anyway. If anything, this will only cement their relationship further, by increasing the girl’s love for her suitor. I do see one potential difficulty : that the young man may not like being the subject of enquiry, and may perhaps be so put off by this sign of worldly cunning intruding into his romantic life that his own feelings for the girls are affected. But that would only be an extreme case, and will not bother many men ; and in case, that objection breaks down when we look at the Guru (since we’re talking of the young man only by way of analogy). Surely the Guru, if “true”, won’t go all petulant and turn away from the disciple just because he’s found out that the disciple had not blindly trusted him!

This is not to negate or belittle your love, your faith, or your Sadhana in any way. I just don’t see why greater knowledge and clarity about the Guru (and indeed, about the Path itself) is not to be welcomed irrespective of the content of that knowledge.

My best wishes.

- - - - -

Hello, x :

You’re right, concise expression is definitely an art, and the ability to write concisely an asset. I’m not being at all sarcastic when I say that I have found that many of your own pithy comments here get straight to the heart of the matter being discussed, cutting through the dross as it were.

But perhaps you conflate economy and paucity in this instance? They are two very different things, you know.

Are you aware of the terms efficiency and effectivity, as used in industry and academia? Efficiency is an engineering measure that, in simple terms, is arrived at by dividing the number of units of output with the number of units of input. And effectivity builds on this measure and concept by looking at the overall result achieved in somewhat broader terms. Perhaps you would better understand what I’m saying here, about economy being different from poverty (or paucity), if you thought of economy while keeping these two terms in mind, and in terms not merely of inputs consumed but also the output produced and result achieved.

After all, if limiting the number of words used were one’s sole purpose, then the truly wise would refrain altogether from saying anything! (Wait, that came out sounding all deep and Zen-ish, didn’t it? Just because it came out that way entirely accidentally, let us not—neither you nor I—scorn to learn from this serendipitous sequencing of words!)

Haha! I haven't checked out this blog in what must be a year, and I forgot what I was missing!

Flee - your comment was spot on, and probably the most insightful :)

Mr Hines - smoking & marijuana are "evil"? Can you please point me to the part of Beas' new rules that relates to such a theological judgement as I seem to have missed it?

Indignation and outrage at Beas saying should somebody wish to be initiated into their faith that they must not use tobacco or marijuana for a year? The evil demons that they are!! (yes, that "evil" was meta-ironic).

Yes, of course, the tobacco ban is ridiculous in view of the fact the founder of the entire faith not only smoke, but even composed metaphoric verses based on his hukah pipe.

But ingesting weed (medical or not) and trying to achieve some relative progress on the meditative, "spiritual" and shabd/kundalini path is a completely and utterly ridiculous proposition.

And that's coming from somebody who has a fair deal of experience with all three (forget those smoking babas, they're trapped in a shadow realm of bliss and insight....)

""When a young girl falls violently in love, she may not want to entertain for a minute any doubts about her loved one. But is that wise? - """

Very good line and comment, due to
my not enough emphasizing the 'analogue' of my expo , , , ,
and as always my poor english

There is not another analogue that I know of on this earth to compare with and
Yes the girl is often in danger

We all see actually jihadists going with their wives/girls ( apparently in 'love' for celebrating bloodshed, torture, murder, rape and all evils thinkable

I could have compared The Love for God with a movie*enthusiastic
or a musicien for playing but this sentimental juvenile love
is what most of us can remember how intense it is

about what sort of love am I talking from the start to the "end" which not exists :

My own experience * some asked and being an anonymous : here we go

The first time I met Charan 1967
it was in a theatre and I was on the balcony :

When He entered I saw coming from his forehead a string of
liquid diamonds going in all possible directions
It touched the walls and people, and these folks and things all very slowly changed in gold
But immaterial stuff quite else than people * peoples had more 'life'
in it * it was all vibration but so silent
like you see it all but you only look to Him
At the same time I was completely able to have conversation with an american friend, curious not even a seeker
who asked me a lot of questions and I answered
and another , an much more essential part of me felt those vibrations
you only can explain comparing with human love or orgasm
but only the part of orgasm above the eyes but so strong, so easy unending
Any better comparison will win of mine
and it was as what Saint Augustine said in confessions
google with : "I entered even into my inward self, Thou being my Guide" and able I was

Now I guess that Brian as he said at the start during his decencies with Charan
has experiences likewise or even the same but was interrupted by a mind saying : "this is not possible, , , he's hypnotizing the guys , , , and more

and I suspect the same from David Lane, who took the faqir as granted but not his Master

I explained already that the faqir was nicely underway and some miracles started happening around him, even through him
but instead of bowing in humility he started blaming Saints

At any level under the great void your feeling of
"I exist" which is false
may take over and you have to repeat a class

what I experienced then was without Sound and I got that much later
when you hear the tiny so tiny SWEET frequency of unbelievable pure ness
That is an completely different ballgame

That is what augustine said but for Light and Sound which are the same
and then ( in my case much later than other satsangis but probably because I am and always was a bad , really bad performer on all the vows except the vegan part , , that's easy for me )
before you realize that it's all your own soul, your self, that is performing this show before you
a show so unbelievable, so perceiving each cell of you, so goose bumps-like as if that word was adequate ; so six dimensional
and after a time which is rythmic, , , , so fast that it's not rythmic anymore
but it is
and long before all that
you really ended all thinking; , no thinking left you
what I tell without saying a word on Dhyan is merely ""best interpretation in the mind after you come back**
it's in a way always that each of these seven bodies we have
can function independently, can have it's own ecstasy, joy,
yes that's the word and the sound is always a step higher
like a dirigent capable to enjoy all the instruments seperately

I near 80 years of age and swear that I'm incapable of telling the beauty
of what I called LOVE
and the description is very poor and that this is regular

but that for humans ALL that starts with Compassion WITHOUT SECOND THOUGHTS or AGENDA
Our first nice kind smile to another being brought us on this path

Also that this unbelievable Sound is in every human c q species genetically with a Crown Chakra
what so many intergalactic species are aware of , search for and cannot find or implement it in themselves

Brian, please don't edit or otherwise do harm


Brian, please don't edit or otherwise do harm

Brian, please tell 777 that he's clear for take-off.

A serious,....compassionate question for both Brian Hines and Dr. David Lane, please?

Are you sorry you ever asked Charan Singh for initiation, and sorry he ever accepted you as Deciples? Now that you still both meditate daily, after so many years of now rejecting RSSB, do you both advise any new innocent seeker of Spirituality to completely reject all Radhasoami Gurus offer to initiate seekers, no matter the Lineage? Thanks.

As far as i know Jim Lane ever loved Charan and still meditates he just says he doesnt agree with some theology.. I was initiated by Gurinder and never was traditional satsangi only deep meditator ..and meditation saved my life . I never throw my personal views on others and I respect critics and learn from everybody and thus wish everybody a good life. Peace

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your question. I am interested in Brian's views on this subject. As for me, I don't have any regrets. However, I don't steer people who ask me where to go, except to say what Charan said on many occasions (and very wise of him): resist, resist, resist, until you cannot resist anymore! I do happen to like how hard it is to get initiated. I think that is a good buffer.

Hello hello,

This is my first post here, though I've been reading parts of this blog for a while now. I just wanted to express my appreciation to all those who take the time to share their RSSB experiences. I'm not an initiate, but my interest was kindled when a close friend decided to join a little while ago. I've read some of "the literature" but that's about it. Honestly the only reason I still consider applying to RSSB is because I trust my friend's judgment, but of course I would never consider applying until I've been in the Guru's presence myself.

But, again, I just wanted to say that I really do appreciate everything that long-time satsangis and ex-satsangis share here. Needless to say, so many years of shared knowledge and first hand accounts are highly valuable to someone like myself.

All the best,


David, thanks for an honest answer. But not "steering" seekers to any particular guru is not admitting, honestly, the spiritual peace and tranquility you have received by haven been initiated by a Guru of the Sant Mat Path. The very "least" you could do, is share with sincere seekers of spirituality that the Radahasoami Path is the highest spiritual Path you have ever encountered, and would recommend sincere seekers to seek a living Mystic to guide them on the Path. Then, let them do their own searching for a Guide,as you and I had to do. ( unless you have been appointed by your Inner Master to offer initiation to seekers who ask you for recommendations? )

"...the spiritual peace and tranquility you have received by haven been initiated by a Guru of the Sant Mat Path."

You gotta be joking. The higher the Path the more the trials there are! Its easy to become enlightened is it? Takes years, lifetimes even (yes I still believe in lifetimes).

And you even want guidance from an initiate? This blog is where satsangis come to vent and you expect them to tell you how wonderful this path is?

Check out 777's comments. Quite obscure but I enjoy them. He's one of the few who seems to be enjoying himself.

I was involved with RSSB Sant Mat for about 25 years until I no longer believed.

I can't say it was a waste of time because it is impossible to waste time since time does not exist as other than a concept in mind. Life happens. Time, as we think of it, couldn't exist or our moment to be here now would never arrive. There is something else going on than linear time.

Another "waste of time" is to speculate what would have happened if one did not involve themselves with a particular religion, guru or any way of life, person or thing. That's what happened. This is what is happening. That's it. You are doing exactly what you should be doing. What is happening now is exactly what should be happening. There is no "outside" of this moment and therefore no alternative.

Nevertheless, if someone were to ask my opinion of the RSSB Sant Mat path I would say it probably is a waste of time. There is no evidence and therefore no rational reason (a conclusion arrived at via logic) that any RSSB Guru possesses any supernatural spiritual powers or status of the magnitude claimed by their teachings.

There may, or may not, be such evidence to some followers of the RSSB Sant Mat gurus, but that evidence is not apparent to the seeker, neophyte or many long-term devotees. On what basis can they rationally commit to these gurus? Hearsay?
OK, try it if you want to go that route. Spend you entire life pursuing it. But, until such evidence is presented it would seem prudent, to me, to be skeptical, to think there isn't any.

If someone says they will give me a million dollars if I perform a back flip, I will say "show me the money" because, for me, performing a back flip would be a highly risky endeavor as I have a few malfunctioning parts at the moment. The risk to reward ratio would be unfavorable...permanent disabling injury vs a million dollars that is nowhere in sight.

Devoting oneself for life to a religion or guru based on faith that they have the "money" is a risky endeavor. One has to decide if there is sufficient evidence of the reward to take the risk. Your life for a dream. It's OK though. It's a dream anyway, right? Cheap fiction. So, take the leap if you like.

David Lane said :
""what Charan said on many occasions (and very wise of him): resist, resist, resist, until you cannot resist anymore! ""

That's it , , , yes

This Salvation ( from hell ) is based on Love
That's also why it is easy - i mean 'easy' compared with Shankara's , Patanjali's : The Yogi way - advaita - ascese - to be absorbed in brahma - can take thousand_'up' of lives - based on 100% justice without forgiveness AT ALL
The RSSB Path is for those who see the uglyness on this plane and cannot stand it anymore

Rather shitt if you were not given a little piece of the Love before asking this help , ,

"Everybody goes where his heart already is"
( Charan Singh JI MaharaJi )


"This Salvation ( from hell ) is based on Love"

-The advaitist would say, "What is there to be saved?"

" can take thousand_'up' of lives - "

--The advaitist would say, "What is it that has thousands of lives?"

"The RSSB Path is for those who see the uglyness on this plane and cannot stand it anymore"

--There cannot be ugliness without beauty, or at least the concept of them. Where there is unalloyed beauty there is no concept, no mind, no self or other. An advaitist would say, "This is already the case."

Not that this commenter is an advaitist, but maybe heaven is here and not there.

maybe heaven is here and not there.

Heaven - like Hell - is all in your mind.

"Heaven - like Hell - is all in your mind."

--Maybe better.. Heaven - like Hell - is a state of mind.

Quote x
maybe heaven is here and not there. Heaven - like Hell - is all in your mind.

So is this only in your mind.
X you always forget when you're teaching others that it concerns you too

"X you always forget when you're teaching others that it concerns you too"

"teaching others" ??

Brian doesn't like confrontation here on his blog and yet x can be confrontational because x is on the same 'bashing anything alternative' wavelength. What happened to fairness Brian?

This thread is about changes taking place in the RSSB rules.

All x has to say about it is "Gurinder is fullashit". He doesn't know Gurinder and has only picked up this name from reading this blog.

He, it, posting as x, previously cc, has absolutely no knowledge of the RSSB teachings and yet he consistently preaches his own dogmatic views here. Start your own blog x, oh wait.. no-one would even bother to read it.

777 has the Key of the Sant Mat Path. We have had enought of the horrors of this show, and grasp at the opportunity to permanitly vacate these horrors, of,...killing, torture, rape, incest, slaughtering and eating other innocent species, never getting our unending desires fulfilled, beng hungry, thirsty, horney, cold, hot, wet, sick, etc. etc. it only ends in Sach Khand, where we permanately become the Oberver that the mind creates.

All x has to say about it is "Gurinder is fullashit"...He...has absolutely no knowledge of the RSSB teachings and yet he consistently preaches his own dogmatic views here

My views aren't dogmatic. Gurinder (who is fullashit) is dogmatic.

I don't preach anything...I just comment on preachiness...like yours. You think you're right because you believe you know what's right. But I don't believe, so for me, right and wrong have meaning only with regard to realities, not religious fantasies. If my comments are "wrong", I trust Brian will notify me. If he doesn't have a problem with my comments, and you don't choose to go elsewhere with your religious nuttiness, I trust we will exchange words again.

x I'm not religious.

You say: "You think you're right because you believe you know what's right."

This is your perception and your projection. I do not ever claim to "know" what is right or wrong.

You say you "don't believe" but you certainly do believe in what you call "realities". These realities are according to your own belief system.

I won't be exchanging words with you again. There is no point. You "know" everything.


Why to purchase abscess in exchange of precious pearls ?
So much hatred for every single thing out there ?
For every single comment and the commenter out there ?
We should try to give ourself a break.
Can we try to cry aloud for an hour for anyone we Love(d) so much ?


I won't be exchanging words with you again.

Promises, promises...

Promises, promises...

Only in your mind remember...

X you are dogmatic preacher you are full of dogma you are more religious than anybody here...

I promised appreciative reader that I would give a detailed response to his questions as posted in this forum. It is much longer than I expected so I created a website for him to view. I also say some thankful words to Brian Hines about his blog, etc. Here is the link:


David, I am wondering if you care to comment more regarding your "speaking in Tongues" spontainiously as a youg Catholic Lad? Considering you discard the Spiritual possibilites of inner phenomena for Neural firing in the brain, now that you have another 40 years experience since your Tongues speaking incidence, can you, do you, still speak in Tongues, and if you do or not, where do you stand now regarding it? Was, is, it Mumbo Jumbo excitation of brain farts,....or other languages that could be traslated by Linguists? Since you do not believe in Reincarnation, than past lives and other languages can't be considered. Thanks.

Hi Jim, thanks for the question. I wrote a long article on the subject here which I updated. Here is the link:

Dear Dr. Lane, I read your Article, and enjoyed reading it. I can't object to much of your conclusions, other than our different present speculations of just what it is, or why it happens. I got mine at 35, and it effected me enough to become an Ordained Penticostal Minister, who shared the "Baptism of The Holy Spirit" with too many to remember, after I lost count. But that was all before being Initiated by Charan Singh vis Roland DeVries in 1990. The Baptism of The H.S. To me, now, is the same as Shaktipat. But in 1984 when I wrote my Doctoral Theses that included what I thought of The Tongues Controversy after being a Penticoastal Minister, is here, to any one wanting a Bible View of what happens. There are 17 Parts, to any one interested. http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2006/08/tongues-thesis-part-1-by-eternal-flame.html. I have a different view, now.

Sorry the above doesn't link Part 1. If any one is interested, go here, then click older posts several times until finding Part One of Tongues Controversy, then, by clicking Newer posts each of the 17 parts will come up. I believe I have covered the subject from Biblical perspective well, and have addresses most of the issues.

But, that was Fundy Preacher Jim in 1984. I had not been involved with either Sant Mat, The Rosicrucians, The Martinists,...... or the Hineites or Neuralites when I wrote this Article.


Dear David,

Thanks for that very complete reply to the questions I’d asked some weeks back.

Sorry for this lag between your posting that article and my reading it. I’d been traveling, and have logged in here to Brian’s website after a good while.

As far as I could figure out, your google site, where you posted your article, does not have a Comments section. So I’ve posted my reply as a comment to the post Brian put up about your article, here : http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2015/01/david-lane-addresses-the-guru-question.html

With best wishes,
Appreciative Reader.

You who are initiated by Charan Singh and those seekers wanting initiation should check out your intentions,as to why you ant initiation.
Using a sports analogy Baba ji is the coach,we are the team,hes the ex professional,represented our country at the Spiritual Olympics.
Now his strategy pre initiation is purity, physically.mentally and of course spiritually.
How can we who want to get on the team, question the coaches prerequisites.
And those of us current players again question the coach.
Are we the Perfect Living Master?
Are we the coach?
So if he says no eating animal rennet,no tobacco products,no to medical marijuanna prior and after initiation whats the problem?
Get on with being the best tea player and listen 100% to the coach DO as were told.
Anyone can argue, but how many can go through Chemotherapy for an aggressive throat cancer for months like Baba Ji without medical marijuanna.
Paving the way for us future cancer sufferers to follow the coaches example.
Charan Singh,Jagat Singh,Baba Ji unlike Kirpal Singh were all nominated by their predecessors to BE the coach,the Param Sant Satguru one who initiates disciples into the path of surat shabd yoga. We can argue the toss,post as many intellectual arguments pros and cons about RSSB,what Baba Jis strategies are or arent, however at the end of the day initiation is all about doing the practice,losing the ego becoming the master,merging into the divine, obedience,practice,discipline,aquiescence to the master,submission to the Lords will.

Hi if anyone wishes to they can write to Baba Ji directly about many of the points raised on this important democratic website;

Baba Ji

All living masters welcome constructive criticism,free thinking,analysyis,why wouldnt one question a belief system that is not a religion,cult,or terrorist movement.

After following sant mat personally,in this life since September 3 1982 abd meeting Charan Singh Feb-April 1984,having had his darshan,studying the teachings,asking as many questions direct to Charan Singh in 1984 and subsequently meeting Baba Ji 1982 in an interview,again asking as many questions as I could, receiving all the answers I could hope for. From this time until many dera trips over the 1990s 2000s up to 2011. After 13 trips to ,struggling with the path,which is easy to understand and difficult at times to follow, I understand the scepticism if one has not gone inside.
Not had the privelege of spiritual progress, as many of us lucky struggling souls have had.Its no wonder we cast aspersions, on RSSB the master.One thing have learnt.
DO your simran DO your bhajan straight after satsang with the master.The benefits are palpable. As to sewa Baba Ji has asked me directly to write an RSSB book, in keeping with Spirituality Series Worldwide-publications being written about the universality of shabd practice worldwide every race,culture,creed-in my case Polynesian Spirituality.Met Faith Singh Publications Mr Dhutt,Mr Sethi, 2006 and have been working weekly on the publication. Having read most of Charan Singhs Sawan Singhs Jagat Singhs Soami Ji Jaimal Singhs books, there is little room for argument over the efficacy of Surat Shabd Yoga,Science of the Soul,Sant Mat Practice. All Masters were disciples, and as Baba Ji said in dera Hostel 6 October 2006 "You are all masters in your own right"
So when we accept the teachings ,obey implicitly,do the work, do sewa,read the books attend satsang,write to Baba Ji,ask as many questions to him, get the reply-which is DO THE SIMRAN BHAJAN daily and follow the vows ,guidelines..whats left.? We just move on up the consciousness ladder every time we sit,contemplate,meditate,do sewa. For more info we can write to Baba Ji, go to dera, Mumbai,Delhi,go to our local satsang,go online to And for books . Its all transparent,open and up to us, all our questons re the path will be answered if we ask the head of RSSB,verbally,actually,and in written or spiritual form.ps If it wasnt for American Satsangis asking questions during 1960s 70s 80s 90s 2000s at dera and US UK etc we would not have so many beautiful replies from the masters. Its good to be critical,sceptical about any Philosophy of The Masters.

If you sit and think about the same thing for 50 years (x 4 life times...) 2.5 hours every morning, don't you think that eventually you start hallucinating? And can you please explain consciousness ladder a little bit further, it seems you have a better grasp of the mind than most. Have you gone inside? And just wow at "...its all transparent..."

And no, all masters don't encourage free thinking. In fact all old "satsangs" (Mangaram, Babani) emphasize how the illiterate has more power than the literate. You don't question anything, and you fall right into the trap. The path takes your money and more importantly your time. It's no different than any religion, no matter how hard they try to separate themselves. "No political associations" yet every election season, a politician visits for overnight stays at the Dera. Hmmm some meetings huh? Some of them aren't even vegetarians.

Hi Ruhari Abdullah, thanks for your comments!

We can "write to Babaji directly"? You are indeed correct, but who will read it and reply? Do you think it is Gurinder responding?

Actually, a very dogmatic RSSB follower & believer recently said on another forum that even Sawan Singh's "Spiritual Gems" letters to western initiates were not written and/or dictated by him! But you suggest Gurinder, with all the millions of followrs of RSSB, is responding personally?

I thought it was well known that standard generic templates are used to respond to letters? I have seen it myself, a letter I received once was almost identical to another letter someone showed me - yet we asked completely different questions!

And, when I asked the really difficult questions.......no response at all was received!

What happened there? They answered all your questions? Maybe they were just simple ones?

You have been asked to write a book by Gurinder? Perhaps you can write on the following topics?:

You write: "Charan Singh,Jagat Singh,Baba Ji unlike Kirpal Singh were all nominated by their predecessors to BE the coach,the Param Sant Satguru "

Well, that is debatable. But, can you please write about why in the book "With the 3 Masters", a day to diary written by the secretary to 3 RS gurus (Munshi Ram or Lal?)...he recounts a story in his diary where Sawan performs a "Miracle" of feeding many satsangis (and Sikhs who were previously being disruptive if I recall correctly), and uses KIRPAL SINGH to hand out the food from under a cloth....the "miracle" being there was enough food for everyone despite there being very little food.

Why is that, in later RSSB publications (I think on heaven on earth, for example?) Kirpal Singh's name is replaced with Jagat's?

I have read these with my own eyes.

Is that not very strange, and a strong indicator of dishonesty and untrustworthiness?

It also reminds me of another change or ommission of fact and reality reminded to me recently, where Soamiji's final will is changed when he says "go to Rai Saligram for any spiritual (paramrthi) questions" to "go to Rai Saligram for any questions". Why is the word "spiritual" left out the Beas translation?

Guru power games, deception, distortion, manipulation etc? Lies?

Finally, please write about this letter of Charan's in Dawn of Light, written to somebody asking about their homosexuality:

""Please remember that anything that is against Nature is always improper and inadvisable. Nature has created the two sexes for the continuation of the species and for the satisfaction of the sex instinct within proper limits. If we go against it, it means we are doing something unnatural of which the laws of Nature do not approve. Homosexuality is contrary to all laws of Nature and no decent society approves it. The act is humiliating and degenerating not only in the eyes of others, but also in the eyes of those who are involved…There are no habits which we cannot break if we have the will and determination to do so."""

Can you please write how a "perfect living master" can write such disgraceful, ignorant, dangerous and idiotic comments, and why anybody should consider that he has any insight into the human condition, let alone "spiritual" condition?

Many thanks!


Sant Mat is a path of purity. We fight and argue and intellectualise but it comes down to living a life without lust, anger, attachment, greed and ego. Impossible it seems. It takes much discipline and difficult lessons to let go of these vices. What to say about lust and its pull into more diverse "humiliating and degenerating" acts that modern people now adhere to - the total opposite of a life of seeking truth.

It is interesting Manjit how agressuve and against rssb you became .almost like tAo

I have read these with my own eyes.
Please Which one of the three books

My wife is just going through volume 2
But Kirpal wasn't given the succesion because he helped which a miracle
That is a wrong conclusion
In Sant Mat like in any genuine spiritual school always
is the first , the last
and the last the first

Satsangis don't see Kirpal inside, . . . but they see Charan, Jagat, Sawan, Jaimal, Shiv Dayal, Tulsi Sahib, . . Gurinder and many many more and they are all ONE
but with different smiles, all very subtle


Thanks for your comments all!

Hi Truther - Live a life without "greed"? How did Gurinder manage to accumulate & horde hundreds of millions of dollars of ill gotten again (allegedly) without "greed"? He is indeed a true Saint to have managed that, and for a purpose not within the remit of "greed"!

You mention a life of "purity" in order to justify Charan's comments on homosexuality, but you will excuse me if I consider this to be deeply irrational justification of a horrid and ignorant comment.

Easy to prove otherwise - can you please show me a letter where Charan says that a man or woman's desire for oppposite sex is also "humiliating and degenerating..."?

I'm sorry, but to any reasonable, rational person, this comment will just read like a disgusting, ignorant & culturally influenced comment which demonstrates zero understanding, grace or insight.

But you are of course entitled to kid yourself otherwise, that's what the imagination is for!

Hi Suma - I find it interesting yor are more interested in your own perception of my "aggressive" and "anti" RSB comments rather than the truly worrying comments about RSSB, which I suspect you have more connection to than me, and should therefore be more "interested" in?

PS - which sock-puppet username did you use when I criticised Brian's post about Gurinder's comments on abortion, and what else do I know you as? :o)

Yes, the truth can indeed seem aggressive and intimidating if it threatens one's belief system, regardless of how it is delivered.

Hi 777 - Well, I got rid of 95% of all my RS books, and that included 100% of anything related to the lives of the RS gurus themselves.

However, luckily for me here, I have posted this observation over at RSS forum on two occasions over the past 15 odd years, and I've found one of them. Please check all the comments too, I think the full quote was located and posted by a Todd. You will notice that nobody queried whether I was right or not in my observation - on a forum where RSSB dogma police would have jumped all over it if I was wrong :) Page 235 of volume 2, it seems:


You will also notice I never mentioned Kirpal was given the succession because he "helped with a miracle".

I asked why the persons name was CHANGED in subsequent RSSB literature? What was the REASON? And does it suggest we can trust anything RSSB says about Sawan's succession (or indeed, any "spiritual matters") ?

This "first will be the last..." business. Is that really true? We don't need to know who is first or last to know who will be Gurinder's successor - that has absolutely nothing to do with it, does it?

All we need to know is which family member of Gurinder's BEST fits the role when the time comes, isn't it? Probably his son. I'm not going to the 7th region of Anami to find that out, just using business & worldly intelligence!

"Satsangis don't see Kirpal inside"? Really? Even KIRPAL'S Satsangis? Are you sure?

Or is this just utter nonsense completely disconnected from reality?

We all see who we're CONDITIONED to see.....with perhaps a bit of weird magic thrown in to confuse matters. But generally, we see whomever we expect to see, subconsciously.

Sai Baba followers see Sai Baba, Kirpal followers see Kirpal, Charan follwers see Charan (smoking a Cigar I've been told by one Charan initiate! :) etc etc etc.

Isn't this all common knowledge?

The reason it isn't common knowledge, amongst RS followers, is because the theology & large organisations of today's RS is so unsophisticated and lacking in genuine "spiritual" insight, that it perpetuates "Inner delusions" rather than eliminates.

I highly recommend this extremely profound and sophisticated article on "inner experiences"....it gives profound hints at just why so many RS initiates are deluded by the "inner".

Cheers all :o)


Manjit, I agree that we are programmed and conditioned and subsequently what we see within is probably illusionary but then, isn't this world also illusionary?

Why such vehement aggression in your words, eg. "disgusting, ignorant, disgraceful, ignorant, dangerous and idiotic" to name a few?

I occasionally read through the comments on the RSS forum and I seem to remember that you profess to be "enlightened"? What the!

Hi Truther.

Okay, I am intensely aggressive, and profoundly un-enlightened! Now we've got those irrelevancies out the way, perhaps we can get back to the actual topic & points being discussed?

You write "Why such vehement aggression in your words, eg. "disgusting, ignorant, disgraceful, ignorant, dangerous and idiotic" to name a few?"

I wonder, do you read the same "vehement aggression" into Charan's words "humiliating and degenerating"? People don't consider my words to be those of an "All Merciful God" which are then sold in millions of books btw - a slightly difference in context wouldn't you agree?

Well, quite frankly Truther, I feel ashamed I haven't put more in more effort in highlighting these disgraceful, ignorant, dangerous and idiotic of Charan's ENOUGH. I just don't have it in me. I'm no Saint you see.

Ideas like those expressed by Charan here have caused immense suffering for millions of people throughout history, and they are made exponentially worse coming through the mouth of a purported "Perfect Living Master" (What the! :).

I am deeply ashamed I cannot muster MORE "aggression" for this topic, I am a coward.

You see, when I argued, "aggressively" with Brian and one or two other posters here about what I perceived as their unfair judgement about Gurinder's comments on abortion.......my first posts here in many months.... I did so because I thought the subject itself really matters, that human lives and suffering is in the balance, and that it is unfair to use these sensitive and complex topics to further other unrelated agendas.

I couldn't care less who thinks they're a satsangi or who thinks they're an exer, really. No interest at all.

But a disgraceful, ignorant, idiotic, dangerous, pathetic kind of comment that has caused unimaginable suffering to millions of people especially because it comes from IMAGINED authorities?

Yes, I think a little bit of aggression is called for to highlight & balance such dangerous stupidity out. I feel quite ashamed I cannot muster more of it up, so I'll just leave you all to it, to imagine there is some "divine logic" to them (What the! :)

You write: "Manjit, I agree that we are programmed and conditioned and subsequently what we see within is probably illusionary but then, isn't this world also illusionary?"

Yes, I quite agree!

Goodnight (morning over here!) and goodbye all.

Hi Manjit, okay just reading through your comment and looking for something I agree with, lol. I guess I also can become aggressive and I'm also no saint. There you go!

Cheers bro

The book at hand :
Second Edition 5000 copies
There is mentioned that Sardar Kirpal Singhwas there, - not that he took the sheet,
just that he was there May 1947 and about the ferocities of the partition war - and then

SO, at the chapatis multiplication, HE WAS NEVER THERE

You and some scientists are right:
The power of imagination is a big natural power and humans have it.
But rare are those who can exploit it naturally

Funny enough in this same book the next page They talk about
these "miracles" actually happening that same day en weeks before
satsangis telling how they were saved - so many stories where the SatGuru came in and did "impossible" help amidst these atrocities.
Then page 237 Kirpal relates another story about Madame Blavatsky - She, explaining about "Serendipities" and how that works.
I ( 777 ) have in several comments here explained how , when, and to whom serendipities happen
and about the frequencies of them

This is a strange discussion for me and at distance my wife to be involved in
because She has actually been killed in 1947 and her house was set on fire.
She has seen in meditation ( a decenny aga now ) exactly how that happened :
When they attacked her MaharaJI SAWAN Singh with his Own beautiful protection shield
placed himself between the attackers and herself ( in 1947 )
So He didn't prevent or doing changing ( circumstanced ) the Karma
but He took her consciousness out of there and in only beautiful.
They molested her , thought they did but she left with Her Master , . . wasn't there.

There is much more on these pages about serendipities
There is also much more to her actual life related to these Pikistan_happenings

Manumit, don't argue when you haven't the actual books , papers at hand !
Alas I have read many many un_precise or plain lies and dirty gossip on this blog

Happy illusions to all



Hello 777,

Deeply sorry to hear about your wife. My mother lost her (still a young child) brother during the same terrible times.

May your life and path through it be a Blessed one! :o)


777 didnt you say your wife was alive?

To clarify:

It was the previous life's incident of 777's present wife.


Yes Dear Readers and Thanks One Initiated
Sorry for my bad english from France

Yes, It was her former life where she died in 1947
Actually she has been born NOW in 1948
Some 12 years ago now, During and 'around' meditation her Master
Charan Singh showed her the horrible happening turned Super Bliss

Probably most of readers know or have heard that
when a maximum of adrenaline is produced in us
by an accident,
we see our whole life flashing streaming in just 2 seconds

These "files" :-) are still . . download-able !
So, in conversation with the inner Master He can propose
to review some : to explain actual circumstances in your life.

It's much more heavy than ( I say sometimes ) remembering your latest vacation.
It's really RE-VIVING the happening strongly
It's good that regression specialists don't have the perfect skill in this domain
Not remembering past lifes is a boon , a grace normally, . .
imaging reviving
a life where you were tortured (without such a great Master)
People would immediately shift to insane

My wife and therefore I said "around" has received the ability to step in/through
a kind of window - enter in : call it a parallel universe or astral or causal - she doesn't know that - where nature is much more beautiful than here
and can speak with her fantastic Master Charan Singh overthere.
Remember one of my first mails
I spoke about the Master visiting her ( this life ) in Holland,
Ray-Ban Included
while He was physically in India
talking dutch during 90 minutes about the chance of taking up the path
and not drink alcohol

So, after the 1947 horror she has been greatly compensated
as will happen with all rssb initiated

Wish you all these moments of Grace - It's really great Gurinder's Path


Dear Manjit

I' also deeply with pain about the
happening with your brother

If your mother is still alive and I know that a mother always feels the pain
my story might help Her, - even after so many years

The planet has never been without help from the inner worlds
for those who can't stand the pain any longer

Keep courage




Rennet, Presure, LAB

Grinder doesn't say , they are evil

He s just stating that they inhibit more and less the opening of Chakras , including the 2 highest initiates need to have wide open.

Like a racing friend told me : Half a pint and I do everything one inch wider and I lose.

So why this initiation if you have no chance at all



any kind of intoxication is asked to be avoided. with time the stuff availible in market changes and hence the instructions change.

tomorrow if some intoxication comes where by you touch it and get a high, yes the instructions will change too.

the logic is simple. all of these things obstruct in meditation.

Sant Mat is karma yoga. Sant Mat has lots of Masters and organizations, not just one master and organization. Because it is Karma yoga, it has lots of rules. If you do not like it, you can go to for example to Heartfulness yoga. Master of Heartfulness yoga does not give rules if you live outside the Ashram. You can smoke and eat meat. Do anything you want, but the path might take longer, because Karma is karma. Even with Sant Mat you can do what you want, you can smoke and do not follow the rules, I think, should not go to Sat Sang if you break rules. But I think people break some small rules and do not tell others. If you do not live in Ashram directly and you are not under control, it is up to you.

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