Thoughtful criticism of the Radha Soami "cult" by an Indian woman

A few days ago "Tanvee" left a great comment on a recent post, "More weird news from the world of Radha Soami Satsang Beas."

It deserves to be upgraded to its own post, which I've done below. This is a thoughful, well-written look at how the RSSB way of life can turn into a hypocritical, judgmental, rigid, dogmatic pseudo-spirituality.

What is said below fits with my own thirty-five year experience with this Indian religious-mystical organization, which is currently led by Gurinder Singh Dhillon -- who has grown wildly rich while serving as the RSSB guru. 

Read on....

Being married into an Indian Radha Soami Family:

I came from a happy, nurturing and fun loving family, with a conscience to live an ethical, righteous life, but not religious. We are at best agnostics and my father leans towards being an atheist. Born Hindus, we were never told to follow any rituals and my mother constantly reminded us that like one chooses his/her name, geography, profession, spouse; similarly he/she has the right to take up a religion and spiritual way of life at any stage. 

And I did decide to marry this person from a family that was blindly Radha Soamiites. All conversations started and ended on Babaji and Maharajji.

All social conversations were looked down upon because they were not religious enough to suit their palate. It was tough to dine together because all they did and made people do is to read labels of products so that they were not consuming any egg, meat and alcohol ingredients. Their presence till date is socially discomforting not because of the choices they make but more because of the noise they make in exercising their choices. 

From reading and forcing me to be part of prayers to insisting that I go for satsangs, I was every living minute being forced to live the power of the so called Guru and convert from a religion less life to a Radha Soami life. Almost like they were doing me a favor by bringing me to light from darkness. The air was always heavy with this pseudo spirituality. They didn't laugh, they didn't enjoy a light moment. Just a silent sense of superior existence.

They didn't discuss religion, rapes, riots and give a perspective to anything. It was always a safe silence, muted existence and a constant determined push to make me a radha soami. There were days when I was woken up at 5am to drive my mother in law to her satsang. And as we reached the venue, I would be pushed to walk in to hear the golden words but every time I resisted. In 45 degree Celsius heat of Delhi, I sat in the car waiting for her.

My logic was simple, If 30 years of blind following has made you what you are, I rather not hear this guy for a minute. 

I saw the family as strongly materialistic. Less sensitive about people and their resources and a constant need to fulfil their own agendas in any given environment. I found them clever, selfish and unethical. Every thing they did was an effort to show someone down. I also saw them quite unsure of their stance. They weren't rooted in their philosophy and the philosophy was more a cover for appearing happy, spiritual and giving. 

It took me time but I maintained my stance. I still find them so miserably living a life that they weren't meant to. But I do think we all have a choice in how we live.

I met a lot of so called spiritual people through my immediate family. They are all in a miserable journey of hypocrisy. Some honest enough to let you know that they were volunteering at Beas because it is a good, safe, retired life with state of art medical services and everything else taken care of. There was another guy in his late 40s who was phasing down his own business to move into Radha Soami volunteering full time.

I probed him on the reasons and he was honest enough to tell me that he had two daughters going to senior school and if he becomes a full time volunteer, the girls education will be fully sponsored by Babaji in any foreign country. He also mentioned that old age was comfortable in Beas and what better post retirement life could he get for himself. 

I have nothing against cults and religions of the world. I know we all will choose our journey but if the journey is about throttling other peoples lives, then it hardly is a spiritual way of life.

If 3 other people have to disturb their schedule for your satsang, it is not a satsang. If you plan to plant pictures of your babaji all over the house, it can't make you spiritual. When you are spiritual, you don't have to go about coaxing people to convert to becoming a satsangi, they will ask you they reason for your glow & inner light. And if it doesn't, then stop fooling people. You came to live on this earth your own reality not someone else's. 

Babaji, your are a rich guy taking charter flights across the globe, wearing pashmina shawls. Your son is a CEO and may become your successor too. I know you have taken the middle class of India by storm. Your satsangs leads to the worst traffic jams and the largest carbon footprint in Delhi. Why do these people need to see you and hear you?

I have in so many years not come across a single educated enlightened person from Radha Soami Satsang. If you do come across one, let me know. I go for SN Goenka meditations- Vipassana. He is still not my guru but he has given me the science of meditation. He doesn't want followers, he doesn't want to make it a religion and he doesn't want meditators to keep coming back for the 10 days vipassana course, if they have learnt the science of meditation.

Do you have the power to be SN Goenka? Or is this blind following by unvirtuous souls the only way you make money? Why not do some good and giving to people who refuse to follow you. You have made your millions but a lot of people will lose their sons and daughters because their blindness is not letting them love and accept unconditionally.

Comments

[Enlighten One]

Thank you! Brian I fully agree, it was absolutely a great post to read by Tanvee.
Well done Tanvee ! On what you have described of what so many RSSB people don’t talk about or say what happens behind the scenes within the family perspective. It must also happen to other religious organizations I guess.
“You have taken the middle class of India by storm” how beautifully you say this to the Patron of RSSB in charge.
An excellent choice of words from Tanvee!
A beautifully crafted, carefully composed, piece of critical thinking from Tanvee’s eyes if I may be allowed to say so.
To me it portrayed a picture so real, of so many others that fit this stereotype group’s attitudes to others within the community I have seen in the last 16 years.
Loved your saying “Your satsangies leads to the worst traffic jams and the largest carbon footprint in Delhi” “ I would like to take it a little further what about the Airports and M1 traffic in England too, so many extra police to attend to mass gatherings. All for what they are on a spiritual retreat holiday they say.
The dress code: “wearing pashmina shawls” hmm
Interesting to hear of Vipassana techniques, not heard of this practice! But google has a lot of information I see!
Thanks once again on a great article from Tanvee.

[Satya]

I find this forum and blog quite amusing. I did not want to write,but Tanvee's post makes me share a couple of thoughts. For your info, I am an initiate of RSSB... but beyond that let us leave any connection to RSSB or whatsoever cult.

Tanvee's thoughts on her cultural bringing is quite nice and that spirit of freedom is a necessity for any seeker. Leaving a peaceful life, not forcing anybody is important for spirtual understanding. And I do not think RSSB in any sense forces you. If a satsangi does those kind of things, he is sure stupid.

The only thing that is emphasised in RSSB is an effort to meditate. The mistakes of seekers can not be accounted to the organisation or Guru.

I however do not like 'Guru worship'. nor do I like 'donation seekeing organisations'. I have not found RSSB asking for forceful donations..or Guru worship... These are probably seeker-effects. It is unfair to blame the Guru.

So those were some thoughts..

[Bob]

Satya,

When a a major component of the RS path (and dogma) is that the Guru is God in Human Form, then the end result IS Guru Worship. How can it not be?

[Mark Wastling]

What we are really talking about here is culture. Any experience of a thing is often filtered through the prism of our upbringing. The thing itself is often obscured and distorted as a necessity. That the "thing" in question is Sant Mat and the Guru is of no surprise. And that the family unit facilitates this process is well know. I imagine it could be suffocating.

As a Satsangi, who has had a thankfully secular upbringing, I find myself at odds which much that I see and hear in Satsang or connected events. This path is simple, especially if you remove all the cultural accretions, get rid of the books and stop worshipping photographs. So why do we have shabds at satang, why do we say "radha soami"' in greeting. Why? Because we like rituals as much as anyone else. But is is NOT santmat. Anyway, I digress...

I no longer have much contact with santangis, primarily because I felt their understanding of the teachings was distorted. Now I am coming to realise that my own understanding had become distorted, and that my rational mind, having been subjected to the introspection of meditation, could no longer make any sense of the claims made by sant mat. I have never accepted dogma of any kind: religious, political or any other ideology.

I find myself more aligned with Sam Harris, Lawrence Krause, Buddha and myself. But, whatever anyone says about Sant Mat, it has led me here, to this moment, now. I no longer need to know if there is a God. And belief is no longer a word that I care to use. I prefer experience. I do like Babaji though, he seems a genuine fellow - as far as I can tell. It's only a pity that more don't follow his example.

Although I still do the meditation. I realise, after coming to the path, that the Guru is merely an externalisation of our true self, conceptually at least. I am not referring hear to any particular personality.

[Jesse]

Mark Wastling, you say "It's only a pity that more don't follow his example."

I'm curious what example you speak of. Is it the example of following the time tested Indian ritual of using an inherited religious position to amass enormous amounts of wealth from followers for personal use? Or asking your followers to commit illegal acts like carrying goods across borders so as to avoid customs fees?

Is it the example of suing and threatening the people who call themselves your disciples and stealing land from them? Is it the example of telling others not to help their ill or dying friends and family because it's "interfering with their karma?"

Do tell what examples you speak of because as far as I know, the only examples we really have are of a dude giving speeches to a crowd, and the things which are unintentionally revealed about the guru's not-so-impressive-or-spiritual activities.

[Mark Wastling]

I can only speak of my personal experience - which is very limited, and subjective. I am not suggesting that he is perfect. No one is. There are plenty of things that the RSSB organisation has done (under his patronage) that I do not agree with - and there a probably many more that I am unaware of (from an earlier time). More to the point, it's time to move on, as I intimated in my previous comment - it doesn't warrant further analysis. Well, not by me anyway.

[Goku]

I have not got initiated....... I am just 19 years old....... and here everything falls apart..........
why why why..............
....
.
Is what i belived....... I cant stand it.

[Lila]

Goku,

Don't be too influenced by this blog. Its mostly very intellectual people enjoying their discussions. Its like the world we live in today where science rules and spirituality is looked down on. You're only 19, just chill and try not to worry too much. Have good intention in your actions and all will work out okay for you.

[Goku]

Well.... I dont look down at science.... I am studying science and i seemed to had connected rssb's teachings with M theory....... One of the most possible theories on the formation of the universe( you can call it advance sting theory.... It speaks of multiple universes in existance... and of a same component of all... all quarks( basic constituent of matter.. electrons , protons etc...) all nutrinoes( constituent of all antimatter) and the other worlds particles which are together in existance with this world's particles.. but cant be felt existance of by things here coz of difference in string density and frequency.... same thing spoken by julian p johnson in his book before deduction of this theory.... A miracle.... but only he called the strings as "shabd".... I could had spoke more convincingly and elaborately if i was not typing on my samsung core II. And there are much more convincing things like seeing stars with my minds eye 6 years ago just like someone here did... which has just brought so much of.... I hope you understand why Iam starving....

[Satya]

'When a a major component of the RS path (and dogma) is that the Guru is God in Human Form, then the end result IS Guru Worship. How can it not be?'..Bob

Yes Bob.But as far as I know, the Guru in RSSB has clearly told umpteen times, that please meditate and live the life of a what we call a good human being. If we do that, my understanding is our role with the Guru is finished.
In general Guru has been likened to God in human form. (Not only in RSSB.) Now if this Guru only expects seekers to try out his method then ( to my mind) the real hero is the Seeker, not the Guru. The Seeker has to realize that God (or whatever you like to name) is tangible and within his reach. By chance if a seeker has experienced all that, he might naturally like the Guru. Without doing these running behind the Guru is neither useful nor required. A seeker is just another Guru in essence..but unrealised.
Therefore I still maintain that RSSB Guru's cant be blamed.

[The9thGate]

Satya...during initiation one is clearly asked to picture Baba Ji in one's mind whilst doing Simran. I think you need to reasses your political correctness

[Satya]

The9thGate..,

Yeah. Oh .. a valid point.

[Nietzsche]

A century ago the shabd was a subject of intense study as it was called the aether. Now with the field physics the shabd is back again but only material aspects of it. The material aspect of motion however has not made it to the field while a century ago the particles where vortex motion of a non viscous superfluid. I think the motion aspect will come back. That this superfield is everywhere and that it responses to intention will be discovered too. From it life arises. Simple life forms just apear when the conditions are right. They do not have to be infected into a place like we think nowadays. This is a spiritual universe and the shabd is everywhere also in most religions and alternative health science theories.
If however you choose for rssb you will enter a life of separation from the people you love that are not rssb as they become the inferior beings that are uninformed and foolish mamuk world people. You will interact with them as a karmic duty and in time you will only interact with rssb people anymore as they are your new familly. In rssb people you will be disapointed as they are not good people at all so in the end you will be all alone staring at a picture of the guru on the wall.
You will spend 1000's of hours trying to reproduce your visions and in the end you will understand that they where all talking from what they read in the books and noone has seen the visions.
Even later you will wonder why you need the visions as you are obvious not dead and not in a place that is suited for visions. You might ask yourself what am I doing here. After that the real seeking will start and the rssb thing will become a foolish misunderstanding from the early stages.
Oh and don't forget that rssb will make others look inferior because they do eat different. The rssb earing is a thing to become moral superior and spiritual while in fact we are all parasites on the plants as only plants life from the sun and soil only. One day you will see that the shabd has enough nutrition for all you atoms to work together and you don't need plants anymore. But till that day you do not have to feel guilty for plant eating or occasionaly meat or eggs if you are respectfully transforming the eaten material to a new body.

[kuli]

Quote Nietzsche
If however you choose for rssb you will enter a life of separation from the people you love that are not rssb as they become the inferior beings that are uninformed and foolish mamuk world people.

That really is a load of crap you just said.
Actually you did that! Your words are saying what you did . In realiy there are few like you and few who are totally quiet and few very loud and few are happy and so on...but words above tell what you are like, always pointng on someone else but never on you. You are very amazed when you meet new stuff and thus you feel more special than others and than when you cannot manage it anymore you criticise the same stuff you were amazed with for your weaknes of not manage it. And it will happen to you with every new stuff or philosophy you enter cause you are that and this cause from your post.

[june schlebusch]

HI Nietzchie, that has been my experience as well... Thanks for that comment, it makes me feel less alone.

[Nietzsche]

Okay but it seems I am not the only one. Perhaps it was written for the few that recognise it. I know for certainly that there is at least one that the master did not help at all. The illusions of help where in the first years and I still have them but they turn out to be my own projections. I do not need to project hem on a god or master anymore. The movement certainly caused an impression in the aether just like some symbols or medals from the past can have an energetic effect. I noticed that the mantra's became weaker with time and the booklets relay appear dead to me while the old booklets appear inspired.
But okay maybe the mater just did initiate some people that he could not help at all in the end. I was glad I started to fight myself to solve my problems and I can say I must have done something right because the endless suffering of mental problems I did solve with my own ideas and help form alternative health guys like dr. Hoffer.
Satsangi's told me to sit and wait untill it would go away as karma allways would end when the suffering is done. Well I can tell you that does not work at all and it was after leaving rssb I found the tools to move on with my life out of the passive karma crap that is killing so many people waiting for a better life.

[Goku]

Sir Nietzsche,
I am sorry but I cant agree with you. We are presenting a totaly different opinion. And theory. And views. And i disagree with you. Coz I... have meet people who arent.. okay i would complete my comment later

[Lila]

"...during initiation one is clearly asked to picture Baba Ji in one's mind whilst doing Simran"

I heard that Gurinder has said not to do Dhyan?

[The9thGate]

Lila-have you been initiated? If you have then you would attest to what I said regarding contemplating on the masters form during simran. This is also mentioned in the guide for initiated satsangi's booklet. Now if someone's experience of initiation is different then it raises the question of discrepensies in the method. That is opening a can of worms nobody on here has the time for.

[One Initiated]

Contemplation is required to be done on Shabd.
Shabd is not rightly available to the beginners unless the consciousness reaches at the level to meet Shabd.
When the Surat is to be connected with the sound, there is something required to let Nirat to be focused on something than nothing. Because if there won't be anything in our contemplation, something on it's own will be thrown by our Mind to be contemplated on, and if it's something which doesn't inspire us for Shabd then our Surat will automatically get distracted from the Sound current.
Guru is one with the Shabd... and what other thing can be there to be contemplated upon so as to keep the Surat remain connected with the Sound current.
It's not at all necessary to contemplate on Guru, but it helps to let Surat remained connected for longer time with the Sound.

(Brian, please let this one go through... remove this line if you'll allow this one.)

regards,
One Initiated

[777]

Dear Tanvee
Really SAD

What is rather important is if you were forced into this marriage
or was it your own choice and if so : on what arguments ?
Didn't you foresee ?

I remember Charan MANY TIMES said that satsangis CANNOT do what you described.
It's psychological torture.

I guess you cannot easily divorce

Further , it's difficult to judge about hypocrisy and eventual inner experiences and if they are really in Love

I'm writing this , -my wife ( who had & has many inner Radiant experiences , as promised in Sant Mat ) at my side
and she sais : Tanvee s right.

And then to me : "You have also pressed me into the Path , when I was Young" - - (( google hinessight+777 ))

777

PS
Thanks Satya : you made a very clear statement

[Satya]

Tanvee's case continues to interest me. A person interested in meditation, generally is curious about other 'avenues' as well. Now take Tanvee's case, where she feels a natural inclination to Vipasana. Good. But do we notice that the mind accepting someone as a Guru (Goenka) particularly when he refuses? At the same time, it refuses to go and experiment with RS method.. simply because some of the people it knows,does not appeal to the mind. A really curious mind interested in meditation should be free to experiment in the way we normally do as in science.

In other words it is certainly possible to be initiated in RSSB ( or any other way), not 'believe' the Guru, live the life of a good person, doubt everything ( is it the brain perception or the spiritual experience for example..)continue with the exercises and still be an honest seeker. At the end of the day or years if we havent made any thing, the very act of meditating is in itself an award.

Were I in Tanvee's position, I would have taken that Naam (just because family members want her to) and brought family peace quickly. For then the resistances in family would peter out. This way I am tackling near people.

This is not an advice. I had problems with my partner being on the opposite side. And one fine day I said to myself, that I stay with a person who should be respected, given attention. Her consistent criticism, call it possession, soon ensured I dropped all plans to be a part time sevadar. Then the sunday satsangs stopped. Then I missed the Guru's Darshan when he was in my town. A typical RSSB at this stage would be going mad. But not I.

Slowly I maintained that thinking about God is far more important than all these bodily devotions. So in some sense an opposite direction force as compared to Tanvee's case took place with me. Today I remain a happy person, good being. And thanks to these ChurchLess forum, whatsoever guilt that has remained has been dry cleaned! So first buy worldly peace. Then investigate about these eternal questions.

There are many many options for an honest seeker. At the end of the day, after about a decade, I am happy that my partner did all the opposition at that time!

Long post. Sorry about that.

[vinny]

Stark contradictions in what this cult preaches & what is written in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib the reference adopted by this cult , read on some verses from reference

1 shabd guru ( not human guru )

2 bani guru guru hai bani ( text verses given by first guru are synonymous with guru )

3 pothi parmeshwar ka than ( holy book is abode of enlightenment )

4 guru , satguru , swami ek hi jaan ( guru , true guru , lord are one not three & that one is shabd or creative power present within every human being )

5 Guru parmeshwar ek hai sab mein raha samai
( guru & lord are one , present within every human being )
6. Santo hari dhiavo ( o saints contemplate on lord, even saints are not gurus according to these verses in gurbani )

But this cult is twisting gurbani to brainwash people , should they be charged with criminal deception for propagating mental slavery in the guise of human gurudom aka living master.

You don't have to be apologetic for leading human life comprising three stages of consciousness ; activity , sleep , dreams because the mere thinking & activity of mind makes rest & sleep the natural corollary akin to cause & effect.

[Tanvee]

Thank you Brian for making it a post! I am happy to see those many people come forward to comment on it.
Thanks Enlighten one!
Satya: TO my mind, a guru is responsible for his followers interpretation of religion/spiritual message. If the current day interpretation of Islam is leading masses towards jihad and fundamentalist terrorism, if not the Quran, there have been successive teachers/ mullahs who are quite responsible for misleading youth to perpetrate crimes on women and the world at large. What I went through is also an emotional crime where ideologies are subtly, coldly, mutely pushed by followers in the family on non followers.
Also, every religious, educational, spiritual institution is judged and perceived in light of the people who are churned out of it. If the masses churning out are confused, pseudo spiritual and leading to forced conversions, I may never choose to spend my time wanting to know more about such an institution. Like, I would never put my child to a private school that has uninspiring people passing out every year.
Every cult in India, pretty much has the same message- shabad, Simran, satsang and meditation. None of their publications misinform people. Then what goes wrong? There is always the interpretation gap and that's where organizations make it or break it. On the point of donation, none of these cults demand money but somehow all of them have vested interests in leading corporates and all of them are rich. They receive huge anonymous donations that are passed through their respective charitable pipelines where black money is converted to white. These institutions never ask for money from commoners. But tenured association leading to baptism (Naam), a person in happiness, hope, fear and unhappiness channels his money, energies towards these institutions. When we got married, bought a house, bought our cars etc, my mother in law ensured that we dropped money in their drop boxes. Any calamity or disaster at the national/ international scale, I have never seen my mother in law wanting to make a contribution. She says "babaji decides for us" "he knows it all" "he knows what is best"
To my mind, as long as there is blind faith, there is blind donation.
777: my husband and I have had a love marriage. He was always a neutralists, who carried his mom to satsangs and believed that if this was her calling and kept her happy and going, it must be the right thing for her. I knew that he carried a picture of babaji in his wallet and that didn't trouble me at all. And having known my husband 5 years before our wedding, I used to visit their place often. In those umpteen visits to his place, religion was never spoken about. We mostly went out to vegetarian places for food and I respected his mother's choice of keeping in line with belief system and specially thought of foods and cuisines that would do well for her. She always came across as a person who spoke very little and was pleasantly smiling. She often said something like "woh karo Jo Maan bhaye (do what pleases your soul)" In my dreams I couldn't imagine the turnaround that my husband and I were face to face with. The night of the wedding, prayer books were taken out and I was told that these were some prayers that I needed to memorize. I read them along with her the first night. My husband politely resented but she prevailed. And then for the next 2-3 years, it was about how hard she pushed her way and how we both slipped out of situations, sometimes with an argument and other times in silence. Just to ensure that we didn't always have a bad start / end to the day. My husband on many occasions sat and chatted with her, but to no avail. She sadly realized that her steel fisted religious dictat wasn't getting anywhere and she petty much lost not only a daughter in law to RSSB but also a son. Within those years, I saw the picture of babaji that had always been in my husband's wallet move into a chest of drawers. When I questioned him, he said there is no one right path and he would see as He went along if he wanted to belong someplace/ somewhere. Rest of the trauma that I faced was mostly when my husband was traveling for work. Now we don't live together with his mother and it is quite peaceful. We both pretty much lead a life of not telling each other what to do and where to believe. Life is good and we both expect each other's choices. My mediations, chants and other stuff are only my journey and our together journey is beyond that point.
Satya: I am a curious seeker to my "pulls" and not to things "pushed" on me. I don't want to read the Quran because hundreds of people are misinterpreting it and destroying happiness and peace for others. Similarly, I don't want to go deeper in trying to understand a school of thought that is least of all inspiring for me. Curious, yes! But wouldn't go where pushed. I learnt to meditate at vipassana 7 yrs back. I am inspired by Mr GOenka's personal journey and don't hesitate in accepting the fact that he is a teacher who helped me unravel my experiences through a technique. I meditate on my breath and that is my tool. Mr Goenka is living his own experiences in some part of the world. I have never met him, nor do I desire to. My husband may not even remember a guy by this name who matters to me. I don't keep his pictures, DVDs, audio cassettes and other remembrances. So if you do think he is my Guru, then he certainly is. And yes, I learnt a science from him and In that way I wouldn't want to deny that he is my guru/ teacher. Mr Goenka let go off me, not converted and not in the pursuit of converting anyone, just living.
Thus taking NAAM is not living my life honestly and is almost living somebody else's farce to fruition. And in this journey, living your truth is the most profound message that has unfolded on me and I choose to live it without any notion of guilt, shame and apology.

[flow]

Tanvee you have classical mother in law vs sons wife problem and you are just blaming rssb about that. You want to be honest but you come on internet to bash your husbands mom uf uf... And then you present us a new guru which is full of scandals. Your goenka has few aces under his sleeves..

[Tanvee]

Flow: thank you but in don't need the shrink in you to tell me about the nature of my problem(s). As far as goenka is concerned, feel free to critique him/ bash him up etc etc because I learnt a technique from him. I don't go about stamping and certifying his character. And telling the world to make him babaji.
He could've uptown a lot that I ain't aware of. And since I am not worshipping his gurudom, it is possible that I not uptodarte with his activities.

[Tanvee]

low: thank you but in don't need the shrink in you to tell me about the nature of my problem(s). As far as goenka is concerned, feel free to critique him/ bash him up etc etc because I learnt a technique from him. I don't go about stamping and certifying his character. And telling the world to make him babaji. J
He could've been up to a lot that I ain't aware of. And since I am not worshipping his gurudom, it is possible that I am not up to date with his activities. As I mentioned in my last comment that I haven't been updated on him in the last 7 yrs. thank you for the insight.
Flow, if you are more informed on Mr goenka, feel free to liberate the world with your knowledge/info. I would hate for anyone to not take an informed decision about their guru, if anyone has already chosen him to be.

[Anita]

Brian, first I did not want to make any comment on this post of Tanvee ,but for some reason, I felt today the need to express my personal thoughts on her post that you supported and agreed totally and I do really appreciate and respect that. In my personal opinion, in her post , I find a lot of right observations and statements regarding Sant Mat . I have never been in India and I never met the guru Tanvee is talking about.. I have been initiated in Sant Mat and I have seen a lot of personal positive experiences and benefits especially regarding the Sound meditation. I am aware that this is all subjective.
I will just repeat a few statements from the post that I think that show personal contradiction and friction between her and her in-laws and I don't think Sant Mat or other religion is responsible for that.Everybody has the right to follow and believe whatever brings peace to them and wherever their mind finds comfort..
"my logic was simple if 30 years of blind faith has made you what you are I rather would not listen to this guru for a minute.." here is another one "they are all in a miserable journey of hypocrisy"
Personally I think these are statements that show not only somebody that carries judgement against Sant Mat as a religion but also show lack of sympathy , compassion and understanding for people around us. I do believe that the world around us reflects the way we feel sometimes inside us. Personally I think as we progress in the journey of our human nature awareness we understand better, and become more receptive of each other since the journey is different for everybody , though the intention is the same--Harmony, peace.. fearless state..
I do apologize if I sound judgmental, just would like to express some personal thoughts and observations..

[One Initiated]

@Tanvee

One thing I didn't understand at all, how come you are comparing Mr Goenka with Your In Laws ?
How come you are putting your In Laws as a representative of the whole RSSB and the Guru ?

If you need a fair comparison, you'd need either to search for a similar Mother In Law who is also a follower of Mr Goenka and that her Daughter In Law doesn't believe in Mr Goenka.
OR
You will also have to learn which technique Babaji teaches during the Naam Daan and explains during the Satsang, you said you have had always been standing outside the Satsang in your car, then how would it at all be able to assess and compare Babaji with Mr Goenka ?

I mean, I am not at all talking any SantMat or any technique, what all I am thinking is simple scientific approach of measuring anything.

One thing which is pretty observable in your story is it's missing one thing that is Love and Respect.

In my opinion and personal experience, if we can not Love and Respect especially our elders, we can never observe any progress on any path whether or not RSSB.

regards,
One Initiated

[flow]

First of all i am not your dam shrink and dont give a shit about your goenka or any guru i just said you come and bash your mother in law and what she is conected to if she was christian you would bash all christians and you justificate your way and your anoying goenka. That is all for me case closed i have enough winers who bash others and then come with their own.

[Appreciative Reader]

Tanvee :

Satya Narayan Goenka passed away in September last year. Thought you might want to know (in case you don’t already—and it seems you don’t, from your comments, although of course I could be mistaken).

Remarkable man. There is no doubt that he’s paid a huge role in reviving what seems to be the actual teachings of the Buddha (as opposed to the loads of philosophy and sophistry and psychic gymnastics that today carry his name, the Buddha’s name I mean). What did they do him (the Buddha I mean), cremate him or bury him? If the latter, I’m sure he’s turning there in his grave, given what passes today for “Buddhist” practice!

One clear and unarguable difference between Goenka and other gurus. The man claimed no especial place in the world or in the scheme of things in the discipline he propagated. He was merely a follower and a teacher of the technique, one amongst many others. (To be sure, that is what the Buddha himself said of himself, that he was no one remotely special.)

Which is not necessarily to elevate Vipassana over other techniques of meditation of course—different discussion altogether, that—but certainly no one can accuse him (Goenka I mean) of the sort of things that many other gurus are (often rightly) accused of.

[observer]

"... he’s paid a huge role in reviving what seems to be the actual teachings of the Buddha..." (paid or played?)

Reflecting on the different 'spiritual' movements that have taken place since I was young, first the beat generation, they were into art, music, poetry and intellectual discussion, followed by the hippies and the new age movement which encompassed the mystical teachings of the East.

Now I see the young not searching so much for truth or some meaning to life on this planet. Quite disturbing to see the growth of zombie like young people indulging in extremely harmful chemical drugs etc, being heavily influenced by the conditioning through the media and the resulting devotion to celebrities.

A big movement away from the religions, gurus and old beliefs and continuing, but where is it heading? Already heading towards trans-humanism imo. Not a world I want to re-incarnate into.

[Appreciative Reader]

Dear Observer,

You're right, it should have been "played", not paid.

I speed-type, and while I generally proof-check quickly before posting as courtesy to those who may read what I'm posting, some errors do get through. While on errors (if you don't mind my having a little gossip here), speed-typing sometimes gives you amazing typos. You have the garden-variety mis-spellings, of course. Then you have phonetic errors, as here. And sometimes you get fascinating errors that can only be described as Freudian!

Observer, please don't be disheartened by people's comments here (including mine!). In the "real" world, I generally avoid talking of these things. My own parents, for example, are staunch believers, and I see what a strong bulwark their faith is for them. And they're generally sweet tolerant people. Why would I want to weaken their faith, their support, as long as they are comfortable with it, especially when I have nothing to concrete to offer in its place?

Which is why I so value an online forum like this where these things are spoken of so openly. My view is : if you shine the light of reason, then false gods will wither away in that light. But any real and authentic good that there is, will only emerge stronger and vindicated in the end. That sounds good to me!

In any case, your truth remains your truth. Others cannot really take it away. If they doubt, let them! You may choose to re-examine your own position in light of their thoughts, or not, but if something is REAL, no one can dislodge it!

I enjoyed your trans-humanism reference. I had to look it up (new word for me!--although I've come across the concept before). It reminded me of that logical/philosophical puzzle, they call it Theseus's Ship or something like that. I suppose it expresses you own question : that trans-human's consciousness, is it really "human"?

As for the present culture of celebrity worship, you've hit one of my pet peeves! Call me old-at-heart, or just old-fashioned, but I see this trend as nothing short of insane! You have people going crazy over musicians who neither sing exceptionally well nor can really write exceptionally (with, in some cases, some good ideas emerging if you care to sift through piles of garbage). In any case, why would anyone worship them like people do today? This is one aspect of our zeitgeist that (thankfully!) is beyond my comprehension.

[flow]

But Tanvee i am not as harsh as it sounds you have to understand i have a street straight talking style and do not take my words hard cause in reallity i think...i am pleased with my path and am pleased with yours and really enjoy goenkas teachings if it suits you.and from time to time give your mother in law a hug cause at the end she came to this world to give a birth to your husband. Peace and love..flow

[Satya]

Tanvee:
Godman and controversies always remain a part of human life. I have a friend who dedicatedly follows Vipasana school. But she sells Amway products too. She 'forces' us to buy Amway products. Once or twice I succumbed. Thereafter I strongly denied. But just because of this ' followers errors' I do not blame the Vipasana Guru. Poor Guru how can he be blamed for this nonsense?
You may like to blame the Gur, if you feel like. But I assure you, RSSB does not ask anyone to force anybody the way your MIL forces you.
If a disciple makes a mistake, let us account it to him. God has blessed us all with common sense. We have to use it.
By the way I thought you should fall for the Naam only because your post gave the impression that the whole family is out to 'baptize you'. The second post was more happy to note that you have a good partner who is understanding.
There are many choices of Gurus and philosophies. Pl continue research in the area of your interest.

[ANAMI]

Whoa! what a great arrogance!

Feeling pity for your mother in law to have lost their son and daughter in law ?
Can't you see you yourself committed this crime of separating her son and leaving the old mother/couple alone and you yourself are pitiful for her ?
You could have improved her opinions by giving Love and by remaining patient than to have yourself filled with hatred and taking extreme decisions to leave home.
Plea to THE ONE that this will not happen with your own Son and daughter in Law, maybe not for this reason of spirituality, but for other!

Give LOVE to receive it!

[Elizabeth]

Brian,

Have you heard that smoking of ANY kind is now banned???? Cigarettes, E-cigs, pipes etc....all tobacco products. What in the hell is up with that? It's now under that second vow which used to just encompass mind altering substances such as narcotics and alcohol. What is up with "amending" the sacred vows??? I don't go to satsang very much but today when I went and someone read an article that mentioned it, I was like....WTF.

Elizabeth-

[june schlebusch]

Elizabeth, don't know about the smoking bit, I still do, but cakes after satsang here in SA have been banned for some time, only tea is allowed...As are home satsangs...Speakers are censored, some have been stoped from giving satsang...We still have bandaras occasionally, but its very low key, not like they used to be...It appears to me that social interaction is discouraged.

[Lighter on up]

Elizabeth,

If I understood it correctly, the non-smoking requirement is for people currently applying for initiation. Us oldies? Well a memo went out from Dera many months ago stating that smoking was detrimental to ones health and highly discouraged. But it did not say us addicted oldies were required to quit. Funny, we use to be able to smoke in the guesthouse rooms in the olden days. Here today, hell tomorrow?

[Juan]

This is from RSSB SPAIN NEWSLETTER of Sept. 2014 which may guide you on the subject:

...POINTS OF INTEREST: New Requisite for Initiation:

As of immediate effect, an applicant for initiation must also have abstained from all tobacco products ( including electronic or e-cigarettes) and medical marijuana for a minimum of one year before applying for Initiation, and thereafter permanently.

Initiates who smoke, now know the Master’s position on this matter and should proceed accordingly.

[goVegan!]

...and then she said: "now we call all go home and get a good night sleep!"

[Pagal Sevak]

Greetings everyone,

(You're about to get a partially rude, partially insulting, aggressive, liberal critique/rant from a very flawed supporter of Sant Mat who is currently coming to terms with the path, so if you get easily offended? You can save your tissues and blood pressure medication for something else and not read my comment. Reader discretion is advised.)

After reading the entire feed, it's obvious that many of you are more experienced with life than I am and you either follow the Sant Mat Path currently, or have had your fair share of difficult experiences either directly with the Sant Mat path or with individuals who follow the path. Some of you hold an outsider's perspective without having delved into and experienced the path first hand, but that's your personal choice and that's okay.

(You still have time to turn back before the vernacular becomes offensive)

Some of you live under a rock and you simply dislike it for a stupid reason such as land disputes which I won't argue over because it's a waste of time.

(I can see your face and ears are turning red already)

But to the more intellectually in tune individuals on the other hand, the ones who prefer to make an epistemological argument? They dislike the Sant Mat path for its technical offenses against your personal beliefs or interpretation of whatever school of thought or religion it is that you actually choose follow. I'd like to thank you for thinking critically about it and making constructive points that make sense. It's because of people like you that makes me feel like there are less idiots in the world that are scared to use their brains.

For the rest of you who dislike like the path for other reasons (aside from the property dispute) that aren't constructive, I do not undermine your opinions in any way, because at the end of the day different things work for different people. But what I'd like to say to you is that, if your way works for you and another way works for someone else? Then why start a war of moral and ethic superiority?

I am a 20 year old male that was born and raised in America my entire life, under a Radha Swami family, which has been a pattern of following since the days of my grandfather. I was initiated at the age of 8 by Sant Rasila Ram Ji who passed away in 2011. Adding up encounters before and after the initiation into the path, I have physically seen, talked to, and have been embraced by 5 different spiritually enlightened masters of Sant Mat and or similar paths who have physically come into my home to do Satsang and who stayed over night. No matter what the topic of their satsang, they all placed emphasis on meditation, having a vegetarian lifestyle, no alcohol, no drugs, no tobacco, no medical marijuana unless it's a necessity, no pre-marital relationships, no worldly desires, so on and so forth.

Now, after all those experiences with these respected individuals who everyone claims are perfect, do I believe that that there's a such thing as a perfect living human being? Although they're very intellectual and nice individuals in their own respect, with all due respect to them, no. Humans are biologically, historically, and morally flawed in every way possible, not to mention narcissistic, and they also have a strange entitlement to happiness or ultimate bliss after death. There's no such thing as a perfect human.

I myself am a very flawed human being in general, let alone being judged from the standards of the path. I have no issues with the vegetarian lifestyle, no drugs, no tobacco, no alcohol, but no pre-marital relationships and no worldly desires? I understand pre-marital relationships are a taboo and looked down upon in third world countries. But I have broken that rule simply out of personal choice influenced by human desire and curiosity. We're humans, we make mistakes, we're curious, we evolve through social interactions, hell we're made to be social, and reproduce in order to biologically sustain our species. Suddenly just because I kiss someone from one of those interactions, or I support individuals that are gay, and I'm suddenly flawed for the rest of my life, and my matrimony at some point in my life won't be a holy or blessed on once I find someone I'm emotionally compatible with? If you're able to stay away from sex and other intimate acts until marriage? Then kudos to you. But for those of us that don't have that type of will power or don't follow the institutional foundation of marriage where it has to be a guy and a girl that get married? Hey Sant Mat, your Matrimony system sucks in that regard and I'd like to submit a suggestion to your "improvements" page in order to figure out who made the whole "you're bound to one person of the opposite gender only" belief.

(You had your chance to turn back, but now you're stuck for the rest of the ride)

And to say that you have to let go of human desire? Raise a baby by keeping it in a cell and never talking to it. Just feed it and nurse it until it dies of old age. That way it will never desire anything because it will never have used language before, therefore it will never be able to conceptualize what it means to desire something aside from instinctively processing that it has to eat and drink something to live.

Are there other discrepancies that I've had in the Sant Mat path? My biggest gripe is one person pointed out earlier in the comments about perspective. As a young individual close to his prime age, I'm in tune with the national and world economies, politics, social movements, so on and so forth. I want to help change it for the better of ALL PEOPLE, but the Sant Mat path encourages that people not get caught up in such affairs, which I disagree with. I refuse to turn a blind eye towards the world that's full of idiots. By the time I am older I'll have different worries anyways and won't have the energy and drive for change that I currently do, so why waste that passion to change the world for the better?

(Did you take that blood pressure medication yet?)

In terms of the money, I'm not aware of any fraud that has happened before my time, or even currently with donations that people VOLUNTARILY GIVE!! I capitalized that phrase for you idiots that don't understand the definition of a donation. It's when you VOLUNTARILY GIVE money to the any person, group, or entity, or in this case Radha Swami organization, where it's then sent to the dera in Beas, and it's used for recreational projects, improvement of the dera, and sustenance. LIKE ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION THAT TAKES DONATIONS IN THE NAME OF GOD AND IS TAX EXEMPTED BY THE COUNTRY!

(You're half way down the bottle already)

Going back to the post of Ms. Tanvee who experienced some mundane conversations with satsangis, I can attest to that because I myself have encountered many dead end conversations with family members and family friends that are satsangis, that have ended with "it's all in god's hands" or "it's pre-planned, we're just living according to his rule."

If I chose to jump off a bridge right now, would that be pre-planned? Or is that because I am responsible for the choices I make and no one has already written them out for me?

Because if it's pre-planned? I'll automatically ask you why humans were made to be selfish and look for self gain. Why are there individuals that rape and murder and live only with paranoia and not with consequences for the rest of their lives without being caught. Why is there gender discrimination? Why does the color of my skin determine whether or not I'll get a job at a certain institution that's filled with mostly light skinned or caucasian individuals even though the interviewer himself is as black as my car tires? (Apologies for that racy remark)

If you respond with "because of past karmas"?
Then I'll automatically ask you, where were the perfect masters with the vegetarian diets during the time of the dinosaurs when they were eating one another or other creatures as a means of survival? Why were there so few vegetarian dinosaurs? Were they the masters at that time? Because they were just as violent and wild as the meat eaters if not more! They were far from perfect! Let's go even before that, when there where unicellular archaea on the planet alone that first started the evolution of life over the span of 600 million years worth of history of life existing. You're trying to tell me that the masters and or spiritually enlightened beings of Sant Mat and other religions showed up in the last 200,00 years of all that history? And suddenly we're responsible for everything that happened in supposed past lives even before the master manifested themselves into human forms and even conceptualized what Sant Mat is and how it should be approached?

Even if that were true, we're not even able to consciously remember past lives according to the masters until we do enough meditation to open our third eyes. So how can we be held accountable for something we don't remember? Punish us for the bad things we do in that respective life. What's the point of saving a karmic load? It's a strange system if you ask me.

(I'm sure you've emptied your medication bottle by now)

Do I believe that there's a higher cosmic power? Hell yeah I do. There's not a day that I wake up where I'm not in awe of what this world is, what it means to imagine something, to dream of something, what death entails, etc. I just feel that it's knowledge beyond our understanding and that no book or individual will know for certain until they die.

BUT! Do I believe that people are too attached to worldly things? I don't mean lifestyles, but rather attachment to physical objects? Then yes. Do I feel that if people were more selfless that the world would be a better place? Most definitely.

To the Radha Swami Sant Mat path's credit, there are valid points that they make which I agree with and continue to stay with the path for. I just choose not to converse with individuals who have their own non-sense perceptions of the path and what life after death and before death is or ideally should be like to them. This includes people both who are in and aren't in the Sant Mat path.

So for those of you who dislike the path because it interfere's with your own personal beliefs? Just "do you boo boo, and don't worry bout me" as the lower socioeconomic individuals of California would say.

For those who dislike the path because they know annoying followers who are dull with conversations, who are repetitive, who suck the air out of the room, fit two of those three descriptive phrases or fit all of the above? Then bare with it because they're not going anywhere anytime soon until their untimely or naturall expiration date. Good luck to you brother, sister, aunty, uncle, cha cha, chat, maci, massar, etc!

For those who are here because they're upset over the whole property dispute in India? If your religion's influence is so big and almighty, why is that little amount of land being supposedly lost so offensive when you can make due without it?

That's just my opinion. I have many experiences yet to come. I'm still learning about life and having my opinions towards the path shift over time. Maybe by the time I'm some of your ages I'll be out of the path or will dislike it enough to leave like some of you? Maybe I'll be so into the path that I'll have my third eye opened and I'll be able to haunt your ungrateful lives? Who knows? There's plenty more to talk about, but I'll just leave it at that.

I hope there is a constructive response to my liberal critique and not some nonsense personal response of how much of a disgrace I am to the path, because I've already heard plenty of that and I've came to terms with how morally and intellectually finite and flawed I am. Nothing constitutes you to be able to judge my lifestyle when you yourself haven't come to terms with your own life. So here's to those that are up for a good debate.

I'm interested to hear why else people dislike the path aside from the stupid property argument?

(Did you eat the medication bottle yet? I think you need a new one at this point, with a few refills)

Is it because of a personal interaction with one of the masters that you didn't appreciate? Or something a follower said to you? or something else?

Please be detailed and clear because there's all this stigma in association with being Radha Swami and following the path.

I myself have issues with the path, but I continue to follow it. I just want to know if there's anything else that others have to say. The more that people are willing to sit down and talk about this stuff? The more progress can be made!

Anyways! Good day to you all!

[yo]

Pagal wrote: "..I have physically seen, talked to, and have been embraced by 5 different spiritually enlightened masters of Sant Mat.."

--Pagal, how do you know that these masters were spiritually enlightened? How does anyone know that? How do even the "masters" know they are enlightened? For all we know they could be in self-delusion about their enlightenment. Maybe they have only reached the first stage and not the fifth. Maybe there is a sixth stage that these masters don't know about. Maybe there are really ten stages or a thousand or millions? Maybe there are no stages at all. What does enlightenment mean...one with God? What exactly is this "soul" that becomes one with God? How do you know you have one? Who is the "you" that has a soul? Or, does the soul have you? Or neither? What does "God" mean? Where is God? Maybe God is where you are when you are not? Or something else?

This is why I "dislike" the path. The devotee is expected to accept all these concepts...enlightenment, master, God, spiritual, stages, soul, karma, past and future lives, regions, karmic reasons for diet and behavior restrictions. The list goes on. But there is no evidence that they exist. They may exist, but there is no way to know that without extensive practice over years of time and maybe not even then. You have to take it on faith and even the path admits you may not see anything for as much several lifetimes. That may as well be never...you will know when you are dead, maybe.

So, it is just a faith-based religion fundamentally the same as all others in that it is dependent on hearsay, scriptures (books), and the words of a person who you have no way of knowing if they are who they are supposed to be.

All that before the issues concerning property even come up.

[777]

I would like using Tavnee's family subject to emphasize an nice premium effect, a collateral benefact,
when we follow the rssb path

We all will admit that it may be very difficult to separate
from Love Ones at the last breath moment , isn't it ?

Ignoring for this point ? this comment the de-tatch idea
I like to STATE that an initiate can 'arrange' with God to never loose them of sight,

Very early when some tiny progress occurs the rssb initiate will see in his children for instance but also when you fall in worldly love,
and you cannot proceed
you or the other person is married, or
-imaging that happens the day before you die-
and by seeing that also hearing the sound
" hooking on " to the sound of that other Soul
which is universal.

I'm aware that it seems to go in direction of
"using secret powers for your own gain,
and IF SO it will never work or even work reversed
but I mean herewith only here : when there is Love, not possession.

There is not much said about this aspect of this super practical Path,

When for instance you ask your 'radiant' form or intuitive°° form Master to protect your Love One
He will show assure you that he will

I can hardly explain but it's a beautiful win win operation.

I think somebody who is a real charismatic writer
could write endless novels about what I try to say

I saw an footage on TV around freezing-in bodies

and many people undergo that for high prices

IF THEY ONLY KNEW :-)

°° Intuitive : when you feel He's with You
which is a state often already before initiation

777

ps
While writing I thought about a situation where you start loving a person so deeply
but you cannot have her/him

In that case ( WHEN YOU REALLY LOVE ) it is enough through the Love for the Master/Sound
to love him/her for eternity
which is WOW !!

[Happy]

What is the meaning of ..Church Of The Churchless..

[Brian Hines]

Happy, I named this blog that because I wanted it to be a place where people who don't accept religious beliefs could come together in cyberspace and talk about living without religion, churchlessly.

[Bill S]

After reading this piece, all I wanted to do was give Tanvee a warm hug. I feel you. I get you. Our lives are not similar but not altogether different either. My wife is a moderate believer and so is her dad, but her mother blindly follows RSSB. They live a few doors down from us. I can certainly relate to enough of your experiences to be convinced your emotional trauma isn't just about an isolated group of satsangi's like your in-laws not following RSSB teachings the right way (as a few here have tried paint this), but rather a direct effect of its teachings and philosophies. It is who they become. Your dining experience gave me goosebumps! And you finally put words to a mutual feeling I have always strongly felt but could never describe - "Their presence till date is socially discomforting not because of the choices they make but more because of the noise they make in exercising their choices."

Thank you.

Yet each to their own I say, and if RSSB is what makes my mum-in-law happy and at peace, then by all means. Will just have to keep the stressful triggers at bay, like restaurant visits for example (so I don't have to deal with the almost certainty of the chef being summoned and quizzed over, say, pastas. And insisting on its packaging to confirm its ingredients!). But when I've made it clear over various personal reasons that I do not want RSSB preached to me or my kid either directly or indirectly, respect it. Yet, God bless her kind soul, we know that simply cannot happen.
Nothing else hangs from all walls in her home apart from pictures of the various RSSB guru's. The only music she ever plays are shabat-related. All she and her siblings talk about when they get together are him (and when its not him its how everything else they talk about ends up being about him, or is actually a result of his actions). She meets guests of mine over dinner or even over light conversation and has to repeat at least 5-12 times about how she's a vegetarian, how she aint gonna share the birthday cake at the party because it has egg, etc.

Oh the noise.

[Pankaj Sharma]

"I have in so many years not come across a single educated enlightened person from Radha Soami Satsang. If you do come across one, let me know...." My reaction "What about Brian ???" .
What Tanvee may not know is that her family is going against R.S.S.B.'s teachings. You too would agree on that, wont you Brian ? People are not allowed to force someone... All they are allowed to do is try to become ideal for others to draw them towards themselves. If I were Tanvee, I would had known that, for I would had atleast taken out a little time to throughly read about R.S.S.B. to criticize them.
Well that gives me an idea... Brian , why dont you read R.S.S.B. books one last time and write reviews for them ? Point out the flaws ? Do that and I promise to ask Gurinder any question you want me to infront of the whole crowd (He answers the questions of 15-25 age group) if I get a chance on my first visit to the dera.

[J singh]

I think Tanvee is hypocrit. She has not provided any adverse action ofthe group only she did not want to do service. She wanted to a spoilt bret and wanted others to fit her life style. I have met many a good person whose life's have been structured around dharma and their outlook on life very good. Tanvee you knew before marriage about your to be husbands belief so why did you marry him. Is it because of material or sexual gain. It seems like you are venting your gripe at being unhappy instead of actually finding fault with the group and articulating the short comings. My advise to you Tanvee is to divorce your husband and join a sex cult so that you would not be frustrated. Or the best is to learn about the religion by at least reading in depth. Your decry is very shallow but people who of your mentality will agree. Go and do service somewhere and help the needy. Maybe then you will understand service.

[Mary Thomas]

What a load of biased, unintelligent, mindless criticism. This entire sight should be dedicated to atheists, no one else will be interested in such childish, self indulgent slander and lack of sagacity.
I bow to your colossal ignorance!

[RamCharan]

Oh My God! Another Human worship?

[Josephine Later]

re Richard Dawkins-who is right on the nose-At one time he even taught at Berkeley!!If you cannot get your act together without some ape telling you how to conduct your life -then -my sincere condolences.
Why not live one's life according to one's own level of consciousness-and no finger-pointing-JM

[SC Talwar]

Tanvee's post and comments are remarkable. Here is a Godman who troubles Delhiites 2-3 times in a year through pollution, expense on fuel, discomfort to fellow commuters, jamming Metro and roadways alike and in the name of clean up, jack up your parked cars only for those 2-3 days in a year and worst, afflict people with Asthma and other Respiratory ailments. Imagine God wanting to heap all this non-sense on silent sufferers merely because Babaji would not communicate through TV channels but perpetuate his discourses despite inconvenience to all others. Senior cops say that it can't be discontinues since it is going on for decades, pollution or anything. Who has time or inclination to fight for pollution free fundamental rights in NGT? So, suffer in silence. Damn the Godmen et al.

[florence]

I would like to say that i have been a satsangi for 26 years and i am married to a man who drinks alcohol and enjoys hunting! We are both extremely tolerant of each other and i cook meat for him if that's what he wants.

The Masters have all said harmony in the home and consideration of other peoples' feelings are paramount. Don't judge the whole path by followers who find themselves unable to follow the precepts.

[777]

Hi SC Talwar JI,

Can you tell if this is the most/ultimate not_helping occurrence in Delhi or are there more comparable days/weekends,
like national festivities
I was 4 different years in India long ago and it was awesome and dusty already at that time
For us , it was tremendous -being impregned by the charisma , and I never thought about the inconveniences for other souls

I'm sure your remarks are noticed by the GodMan
and a solution is in the making , like speeding UP holographic 8K televisions
I agree that 1 crore of persons seeing the ultra radiant appearance
shouldn't disturb an entire mega_city ;
but IF, . . any Soul in that city experiencing some suffering because of a Saint,
is gaining benefits concerning his galactic future, ( and I'm sure ) all this is for the best of each suffering inhabitant after all
and the planetarian ( anti_travel) holographic Darshan can wait for a while
With all respects for your concerns ad God bless you

777

[Keith Perdue]

Having been an initiate for over 40 yrs. I'm kind of surprised at this unfortunate lady's post. The behavior she describes in her apparently dysfunctional family is NOT what RSSB is about at all. The behavior she describes is different from what the teachings would consider proper. It sounds to me as if her relatives have not quite understood the simple teachings & have immersed themselves with poorly directed enthusiasm & "gone off the rails" a tad. An initiate should live their life in a way that brings no attention to themselves, passes no judgement on others & follows the conventions of the society they're in as long as the vows taken at initiation are not compromised. I've lived this way for forty years without anyone ever noticing anything about me aside from my being a lacto-vegetarian, which is really no big deal. We are never supposed to try to recruit, entice or convince anyone of our beliefs or otherwise do any kind of proselytizing. She said she was forced into being part of prayers & other ways to force her into the RS faith (?)That sounds like she was the victim of overzealous & arrogant folks who believed they were somehow superior to other people & wanted her to be like them. This is against the teachings is all I can say, she should have removed herself from such a distasteful situation as it was very unfair & unhealthy to her psyche & well-being. I've encountered such initiates several times & there's not much one can do except try to explain to them their over-zealous & forceful manner is not a proper way to behave...end of story. I think these folks were kind of obsessed & misguided in their efforts, not at all in harmony with the teachings. These are NOT the way RSSB initiates should be behaving & certainly not representative of those who do follow the teachings in a more "clear-minded" manner. I was in the U.S. Army when I was initiated & aside from vegetarianism, drew no attention to myself or the RSSB faith. We, I along with my fellow initiate in the Army, were called "Fruit & Nuts", either name assigned to either one of us, it mattered not to our Army buddies. As to "the RSSB way of life turning into a hypocritical, judgmental, rigid, dogmatic pseudo-spirituality" I'll say no, it was these initiates who did this, NOT RSSB, as their behavior was not in tune with how we're supposed to live. This is like saying Christianity is messed up because of some wack-jobs wearing hoods burned down a church because it allowed blacks to attend & it's ridiculous to use these folks as a measuring stick as to the RSSB way of life. All that is asked of an initiate is 4 things:Don't eat meat or meat products, no drugs or alcohol, live a moral life & do the meditation, that's it. One does not even have to accept the master as anything except a guide, teacher or friend, there's no worshiping expected or desired. We're encouraged to avoid assigning much importance to any photos, in fact the current master has allowed only one or two of his pictures to be displayed. The folks poor Tanvee was living with were kinda nuts in my book. I hope my comments shed a little light on this topic & let people know that fanaticism of any kind is discouraged & we are not supposed to draw any untoward attention on ourselves as representatives of the RSSB faith. We do not recruit folks at all and we do not judge anyone else's faith or beliefs.

[Neon]

In Indian culture, it is very much forced on children to follow the path if their parents were on it.

And westerners are too gullible when it comes to spirituality.

[bhrigupandit]

motive is simple-hunt secular Sanatani Hindus, convert them, make them anti Hindu, take donations out of their pockets. very cleverly spread Mormonism. sell your ideologies in the easy market. those who have eyes become blind. multy billionaire indian POPE.

[Saurabh]

The ultimate lesson of all spirituality is to look at everyone as your own extension, Just the way we look at our family. It's that simple.
In other words, it means destroying your EGO.

It's simple. The moment we define and conceptualize ourselves, it automatically means there is someone else or there are others. The moment this duality happens, problems (including the ones posted by people here) start. Differences creep in. Some think they are good and subconsciously and inherently, they label others bad and hence lose all the compassion and that thing never lets you empathize with others. All these things are verg subtle. Forcing people into satsang or anything for that matter, is a sign of weakness. That can happen only if one takes pride in something. It is similar to demanding dowry just to feel good and show off. It isn't a spiritual or a religious thing at all.

That is the truth which brings you at peace.

And this is what babaji also preaches. It is we who misinterpret things. And even that isnt wrong. It is a part of life. There are moments when we get stuck or accidentally start going down the wrong path even if we are not following any guru and trying to make ourselves a better person.

Just that, when everything's going fine, our reality and the reality we had when we made mistakes and did wrong things gets obscured and we start feeling like we are the best that such things happen.

[Gaurav]

Dear all ,
What tanvee has described is a case of a I would say is a peculiar overzealous family trying to enforce theit relegious beliefs on a new comer in the family. I come from a third generation radhasoami family myself --- and neve have I or my wife been forced into anything on these lines . To add it is actually against the teachings of discussions that are so typical of the belief. In facthe one of the best experiences I remember of my childhood and adolescence are associated with the peace and tranquility present in the dera at be as. To be vindictive about someone else's belief because your in laws have acted in a weird way and they happen to be radhasoasis is immature and incorrect . Her in laws basic nature should be a matter of question here and not the beliefs of the radhasoamis

Rrgards

[Neon]

Gaurav, try to leave. Then you will know the pressure your family puts on you.

[Simran]

Each n every word is true

[rizwig]

Hi All

Situation:
I am a punjabi hindu based in North America married (arranged then video chatted on Skype and married in 2104) to RSSB girl with her parents following RSSB for around 35 years. She has accepted my social drinking and eating habits gracefully. I do not get into any religious discussions with her as I tried once and she clearly was hyperactive with RSSB idea. She does worships Hindu Gods and Gurudwara (for me) so I am happy about it. We were blessed with a baby gal and now her parents have come to visit us for first time.

Tasks
They bought a Big babaji (16 x 20) frame which fell on my 10 month old daughter as they unwrapped it (lolzz - she is ok). I have been requested to greet Radha Soami as I wish them in morning/evening (no worries). Chicken masala and eggs have been given to an Indian neighbor :( before their arrival (no worries, I was cooking chicken /eggs weekly as part of my regular diet before that.)

Actions, Findings & Results

I had chicken in Costco with them and they had french fries (still reaction/shocked, wife approved before ;))

Requested to leave Murga (cock), I said ok but will not leave Murgi (hen) :o)

Attended 1 satsang in Delhi - well organized but pollution etc is true, too many people to concentrate or meditate, people of lower middle class or maybe others (educated people only 20-30 % max)

Seems like teachings are not being received or are being lost like in a game of Chinese whispers.

Madly looking for an egg less Cake in NA for my daughter's first birthday :o)

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Problem - I thought people who have been initiated possess high intellect and can never lie as they have promised to their master/Guru. However, I have observed selfish interests and just the usual problems that we always hear around. Lately I have had difficult time with and some arguments with my wife and since her parents have come they have united and they are happy if she is not correct and still starts blaming me for pity things. Once I replied back boldly so they took it as an offence. This is more of usual domestic issues and may be not related to RRSB but I expected mature people with a progressive mindset but unfortunately I am dealing with regular stuff and nothing like people who have been in service and meditation for decades.

I have felt that my wife and her mother are running through moderate to severe depression and her father has adjusted to this by indulging in extensive sewa. However, this cannot work for me and I am not ready to tolerate abrupt behavior in daily life. I am afraid about my little one as I want her to pick her own religion once she grows and ensure that things are not superimposed on her.

Things are alright for now but at any event of slight deviation from usual their reaction gets too dramatic and haye-tauba types. They live for themselves and possess double faced attitude.

I feel it is better to be attached with like minded people sharing common beliefs is always a good idea. I do not know how shall I take this situation and deal with these self proclaimed high quality spirits :o)

Any suggestions are welcome :)

[777]

Bravo Gourav

If these families knew the bad karmas upon themselves and retardment of their own voyage
of over) zealous behaviour

Bonjour Rizwig
Only the SatGuru is perfect , but He sees that only of His own Master
btw
God has absolutely nothing to do with IQ, . . IQ is mostly enforcing ego and proud
God is Love ONLY
But when you r calling on "minor things" include murder of innocent chicken
I think they feel sorry for you Riz AND the baby

Hindu God s from the second spiritual region 2/7 and some of 1/7
they know about what even 'minor' killings produces for you and the baby's future
and of course Satsangis are worried

ps
Eggs is not karma, it s not stealing a life , They hinder meditation, stilling the mind
so for you it's no point

I wish you and your family great love

777

[Manjit]

I haven't read posts here is some 6 odd months & I'm not really inclined to respond to much (of the absurdities :) here, but I couldn't resist responding to this comment from 777:

"Eggs is not karma, it s not stealing a life , They hinder meditation, stilling the mind
so for you it's no point"

Well, where to begin?

1st) No, eggs do not "hinder meditation", especially not the RS type of meditation. Quite staggeringly the opposite is true, in fact. Eggs only hinder dogmatic beliefs.

Eggs contain essential B vitamins, which funnily enough tend to be absent from a veggie diet like RS's. B vitamins are extremely beneficial is sustaining highly vivid inner visionary experiences, which is what RS meditation aims for.

All veggies on a RS diet who won't eat eggs should be taking good quality sublingual vitamin B supplements, primarily for health reasons. It is highly likely they will also notice an almost immediate improvement in their visionary experiences (should they have them) and dream vividness.

2) If "eggs are not karma", somebody should tell Sawan Singh (on the inner, of course :), as he once said one of his deeply devoted initiates (forget the name) had to be reborn as a human being simply & only because he was force fed eggs on his deathbed by doctors whilst in a delirious state.

There is no end to the rabbit hole of absurdity. But each to their own with the beliefs and ideas.

[suzy]

Didnt you said some day on rss forum eggs are no good Manjit?

[Manjit]

Hi Suzy - no, never!

[Rizwig]

Hi Folks

So I am back after almost 4 months and I am in a much worse situation. Again I am based in Regina, Canada and temperature here this week has been -20 to - 35 ( Yes, Negative). I still have inlaws here, unfortunately. They will leave in January 3rd week.

NOTE - I AM NOT POINTING ANY RSSB RITUALS SO PLS DONT TAKE IT IN THAT WAY.

My 15 month old daughter got a seizure in November and was hospitalized. She was there for 5 days and was diagnosed with v low iron. Nutritionist suggested to give her meat and eggs as its easily digested and essential for her. On arriving home, i suggested we need to give those things to her and there was a SUDDEN ABRUPT behavior of inlaws on this. This broke in a bad argument and my wife (who was earlier giving eggs to baby said she got sick because of eggs given 3-4months back.) These guys united and shamelessly argued with me on this and I had to say that she is my daughter and a Punjabi and will eat and drink whatever she likes! This was the first direct confrontation between us. Two days later again their was an outbreak with my wife and her mother. In both these instances they called my parents in India and said that I am arguing with them. My Mom had an Angioplasty in October but that was least considered before waking her up at 2 am. I had to shut up and think about them and leave from my own home both times. My wife s attitude towards me has changed and the love is almost lost. She is concerned only about my kitchen and baby sitting contribution now. She smartly asks if you can do a favor (which is clearly taught by her parents all day). Finally I stopped talking to them except good morning, good night, yes, no with the inlaws. However, last week my wife again started confronting and saying rubbish about my parents. I could not tolerate and had to answer back and said about her parents as well. Immediately her parents got involved and her mother started saying weird things which were like out of the box thoughts (APPLAUSE). After lot of arguments I told her husband to have a control on what she is saying and also that she is misleading her daughter and constantly trying to make her fight with me. He finally opened his mouth and started abusing at me with all that he has been taught. I was about to call for help but my wife stopped him and requested me to think about our daughter and not to take any action. They said they will reschedule and leave early but no signs yet.

Conclusion

I need help and suggestions as they have kind of brain washed my wife and are not ready to leave yet. This is a 30+ year RSSB following family and the shamelessness they have displayed in my home where I am the one feeding them and I was pleasing them in every way is commendable.
Is there a way this situation can be controlled as I have failed in my judgement and need someone to guide me. They have a big Babaji photo in the drawing room, yet they abused and were about to eat me,, forget eggs :)
I could have done a lot but I still love my wife and my strong actions can break her.

What to do friends, please help :)

[One Initiated]

Rizwig,

Very sorry to hear about such a bad situation you are going through right now.

First things first: Not about RSSB but about your married life.
To keep a harmony in your married life and have a life long good relationship with your wife, you will have to improve your behaviour towards your in-laws.

It's from my personal experiences, the flip side is that I am on the other side ;) ... I have been initiated by our beloved Babaji .... but my wife and in-laws doesn't believe in this - for they belong to Hindu religion.

For my case, It's nothing related eggs/meat - luckily my in-laws and we both have same opinions on not eating eggs/meat :)
But, I have experienced situations similar to this one for one reason or the another.
The real reason is very different actually - it's the ego (from everyone involved)
So, I am quite sure it has nothing related to being an RSSB follower for 30 years :) ... if a person has not achieved much spiritually - it doesn't matter how many years he/she is following a particular path - it's just like not following any path. Nothing to blame the path for. For the reason, if they will be involved with any other path, have not done anything for spiritual upliftment, their temperament would have been exactly the same as it's their inherent nature and behaviour which has not received any change so far :)

I will try to help a little:
For the successful journey of this married life: you, the husband, has to become the engine of your train. You need to take all the load and moreover can not be expected of complaining to other bogeys for any fault.
One bogey is your wife, another is your daughter, another is your own parents and another is your in-laws.
The day you will bring in your ego in the middle, it will start getting bad and bad and bad.
The Engine, will burn fuel, bear all the noise, can't even have an A/C, have all the loads of all the bogeys and still need to run with super speed and happily in order to keep the journey of all the bogeys smoothly :)

If she is your daughter, at the same time, she is your wife's daughter as well - correct ?
If it's about the health - I would be very concerned - but there are all kinds of paediatric supplements available for fulfilling the requirements of the child's nutrition. I don't think it's really a big deal !
But, surely, I think you need to pay respect to the opinions of your wife about what she wants to feed her baby.

For example, my parents are RSSB followers and they do not believe in any Hindu Pooja and Havan (and I do not have any inclination either towards carrying any materialistic Pooja).
But on the birth of our lovely child, my in-laws really wanted to carry out a Havan in our house and my wife was also totally on for it - but my parents didn't want it... and here it was like a given case of clash (read Kalesh :)

I sat with my parents, just made them understand,
"it's exactly the same as worshipping your Guru. They are offering only to worship some other name of the Lord... but after all we all are worshipping the Lord and not doing any misdeed ... then why to shrink our hearts ? Why can't we make her and her parents happy by agreeing to their small wishes ?"
And small things like these: taking child to the Temple, doing different pooja/rituals on some occasions.
And luckily it's all good now :)
When there is Babaji's Satsang, sometimes she accompanies me, sometimes she doesn't and it's fine for me in both situations. I just ask her once, whether she wants to go with me and I respect whatever she decides. She doesn't have anything against RSSB, she just thinks it's not Hinduism and she doesn't need another religion and she is fine with Hinduism already ;) ... it's an interesting opinion I would say ;)

It's not that I never had any scuffles with my in-laws. I did...but I tried correcting them as soon as I realised that it was my mistake - for any reason in the world - the young ones have no good reason to behave badly with the elder ones - irrespective of the religion they follow and food they eat.
My Babaji gave me enough strength on various occasions to overcome the ego and just say sorry to my in-laws, touching the feet and hugging them... and VOILA ! ... the harmony is restored :)

Leave your EGO in the gutter.

Just talk to your wife, tell her that you are going to apologise to her parents for your bad behaviour.
Say sorry to her. Say sorry to your in-laws by touching their feet and then hug them.
(really hugging works great - read heart chakras are so close - two humans can't stop loving each other for too long - had their heart chakras are so close :)
Talk gently with your wife about the nutritious requirement of the baby, visit a good paediatrician and tell them that you have a specific requirements and can not feed eggs/meat to your baby and get a good recommendation of supplements and start feeding the baby regularly.
I can't believe that supplements can not fulfil the requirements in this era when more and more people in US itself are getting on the vegetarian lifestyle. Most of the Calcium syrups these days are already fortified with B12 and iron ones with B9 (folic acid) - so I don't think it's really an issue... these things are in abundance these days.

I can guarantee you, within days you will see your train is getting back on the track and steadily picking up good speed :)

Do not blame her or her parents.
Save your married life, it's totally in your hands - remember always being The Engine.

Lots of love to you brother.

[777]

""" Why can't we make her and her parents happy by agreeing to their small wishes ?" ""

Yes, cool is that : Satsangis should much much more than others be aware of Charan's advise" which was :
"The worst karma we generate by hurting a person s feelings "

Even in this blog I most of the time tried to follow up to that advise ( not easy )

I believe btw Charan said a Satsangi woman was married to a non vegetarian; that she should prepare
meat what her husband desired and that it was her karma and would not produce more bad karma for herself

So I stay at my opinion that eating eggs without harm produced is not bad
but that if they come from tortured chicken one participates in that bad karma.
as in bad hormones
But it is detrimental and completely blocks when trying stilling the mind or staying thoughtless while fully awake which is meditation
- every western monk and military general knows that.

Here in France we have B12 -250 Microgram so 1/4 milligram , GERDA Company Cyanocobalamine. I phoned the manufacturer and the said they produced 100% synthetic

So Yes, Satsangis can and sometimes must participate in any religions rituals and do the 5 words and the whole congregation will benefit
A Saint participating there and everybody will be saved, their lives modified , . . .
we have no clue . . . . at all

777

[Rajni]

I totally agree to her,
Myself married to a radha swami family,belongs to Hindu family,
They are totally uncooperative and are high headed.
Do they guru teaches them them?
They attitude has made my married life to an end along with my 2 yr old son life too.

[Jim Sutherland]

The " reasonable" Path of The Masters is completly detailed in the three Volume Set of Questions & Answers titled " Spiritual Perspectives." Charan Singh lays out the Path that this world is not our home, and our only purpose of being gifted a human body is to meditate, using our bodies as launching pads to return to The Father. But Living Masters leave Home to collect souls marked by The Father to return home with the Masters they are marked for. Charan Singh teaches that once a Seeker is initiated by the Master, its a done deal, i.e. The Seeker becomes a Desciple and will return Home to The Father, with out exception. There are no failures in Sant Mat. No matter how far off the Path an initiated Desciple ventures from the Path, the Master is the Bulldozer and has a chain hooked to his Disciples. He uses the Bible story of Master Jesus having 100 Sheep with one naughty one leaving the Path and going astray. He leaves the 99 to retrieve the naughty one and carries him back to the Path. This example should be a relief to all of Charan Singh's naughty Desciples who he initiated that have left the Path. Not only Dera Satsangess and Indians, but Initiates all over the planet, Westeners who have been real naughty, and have not only left the Path, and some of the Vows, but they have said negative things about Charan Singh, and by doing do, have been used by Kal to push many Seekers and even initiated Satsangis away from the Path. They are only temporary Agents of Kal such as Brian Hines, Mike Williams, David Lane, and all who have shared derogatory comments and information about Charan Singh and The Path of The Masters , and they should obtain the three volume set of books that Charan answered questions, and reestablish connections with him, no matter how far off the Path you have strayed, and watch for his Radiant Firm inside, at your Third Eye level to reassure you he has not broken his Contract with you. He is waiting for you to return where you left him. Again, there are no exceptions. There are no failures in Sant Mat. The Bulldozer never runs dry of Shabd.

[Jim Sutherland]

Charan said,..."As long as you are taken to the Lord, what difference does it make? Haven't you seen a shepherd dragging a lamb by one leg, ( Lane ) or sometimes taking the lamb on his shoulder? ( Hines). It depends on the individual lamb. For some lambs, he just whistles and they automatically run to the flock. ( Me) Othets see the stick and they run to the flock. Others are probabally waiting for the dog to bark and then they'll run to the flock. ( Babaji never quits barking at Exers to return to the flock.) And some have to be physically lifted- some have to be gragged to the fold. ( Mike Williams) But the fold is one, and as long as you come to the fold, it is O.K. It is for the shepherd to see how he brings us to the fold.".

[Jen]

"As long as you are taken to the Lord, what difference does it make"

What Lord? I wonder. Its all just a story. A story all religions use. Whatever you believe in you will manifest when you die.

Why not take back your own personal power. Live life with integrity. Be the best you can in all respects. Be alert and aware of all actions and thoughts. We are here to be challenged. To learn and to grow.

I think its fear that makes us follow another, some guru or other.

Each individual can make a difference with their pure intent.

[Donnie]

Jim David Lane meditates to 4hours a day and loves Charan even more than you do. You were wrong on him.

[Jim Sutherland]

Donnie, that must be inside information. How are you measuring Love? How many hours of meditation a day do you think it might take to erase all of the Karma he created from destroying the Faith of untold numbers of Satsangis, not only his very own Brother Initiates, such as Brian Hine's who is the Pastor of this Church, Ordained by Charan Singh, but all the others who are now Exers and have deserted the Path because of Brother David's Neuralism Religeon directly oppossed to the Sant Mat that the RSSB Masters taught. David's love is for Fakir Chand, as he has expressed over and over, not only here in Brian's Church, but for years in his Radhasoami Studies Fight Club. If David loves Charan Singh that much, he should think about recanting all of his negative comments about the Masters, he has made over the last dozen years, and donate all the prophets from his Books he has made over the years to RSSB as Brian Hines has, considering Brian's Book is still being sold by RSSB.

[Donnie]

Jim can you say more who this tAo is....after reading your post you know him..

Quote Jim...
Hi tau JD, "old Friend??" If I recall, in your last conversations to me, if you treated all of your friends like you treated me, Then I am amazed you still have any friends left. Your refrerenced San Diego Dudes look too rough for me. I left that scene in 1977 and never looked back. Check out my referenced Blog, to see where I'm at presently, I'm too old and burnt out to argue about Casper the Spook, and similar hot button issues. As you must have heard, our mutual Pal, MM departed this world, and Lane hasn't turned into a gorilla yet! ( maybe next time around. ) best to you and your lovely Lady, ....( assuming you are still together? ) I am traveling since retirement. I have visited 44 countries in the last 2 years. Meow to your cats! I still have my same 2 old Guys. Jim

[Jim Sutherland]

Donnie, tAo is another Charan Initiate, who turned rabid Exer last I read his posts here. But at one time in the past, about 10 years ago, we shared lenghty personal conversations vie PM. He shared much of his life with me, which I intend to honor my committment to keep private conversations private. The only time I would ever share Tid Bits of private conversations I have had with Satsangis, would be if I was either given permission, or if I thought it would help another Seeker or Satsangi on the Path. With that said, none of what tAo shared with me would qualify. But I wish him well. I did meet his Wife once for Coffee. A fine Lady. Charan's Bulldozer Chain is still hooked to tAo. 😇🙏🏻💤💤💤💤💤💤

[Donnie]

Quote Jim..Charan's Bulldozer Chain is still hooked to tAo

How what this means?

[Jim Sutherland]

Donnie, before you challenge Sant Mat Initiates, you should research Sant Mat Theology. My first post says that Masters come from Sach Khand to collect souls Marked by the Father. Once a Marked soul is initiated by a Perfect Living Master, no matter how far off The Path the rebellious soul ventures, the Master will eventually pull that rebellious soul back to the Path. Charan Singh coined he Allegory of the Master pulling every single Marked soul back to the Path, as the Master being like a Bulldozer with Shabd as his chain. None will be lost, no matter how rebellious, but some may take a maximum of four lives to be set free from Reincarnation. The Bible in 2 nd Peter 3:9 confirms the Theology. " The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering towards usward, , not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence."

[Donnie]

Quote Jim....Donnie, before you challenge Sant Mat Initiates...

...what challenge? I dont want to challenge anybody..i just ask. Are you using a bit of scary tactics? Really i dont understand what and hiw..the challenge i dont know what you are saying.

[Jim Sutherland]

Sorry Donnie. I meant to say debate, not challenge. Are you an Initiate of any Sant Mat Guru? If not, then read a few Books before deciding to either believe, or reject comments made in Brian's Church. Why are you interested in tAo? Do you know him, or admire him? He used to use another Moniker to post on Lane's RSS site. His long time Moniker was Swamianami. He habitually posted then deleted, so there may not be any of his posts left there now.

[Donnie]

I read a few posts here. So. Thats all. You can tell more of this yoga. Is it ok. Do you like Gurinder.

[Jim Sutherland]

Donnie, I have been initiated for 30 years, so there isn't much I haven't heard, tried, studied, debated, argued about, Pro or Con, so obviously am rarely caught off guard or surprised by any latest scandals, Gurus, etc. as for Gurinder Singh, of course I like him. Why shouldn't I like who my Master appointed as his Successor to continue our Lineage? Charan Singh clearly taught that ALL Masters are the SAME! Only their physical forms will vary, but they ALL come from Sach Khand to collect souls marked by the Father. When they initiate marked souls, either in person, or by Proxy, ( same happens ) they implant their Form at our Third Eye and from that time forward, never leave us. Their Radiant Form, as we know them in their physical form, appears to us at our Third Eye level in meditation using the Technique we are given at Initiation. ALL masters, project them selves from Shabd, and since they are all the same inside, it is not unusual for the Desciple to see the Radiant Form of their Master's Radiant Form morph from that Form to other past or present Forms of Masters from the Lineage. I am not a Fundamentslist Satsangi. But my Faith is strong, in Charan Singh, and his Appointed Successor, and has been verified to my satisfaction many times. My background is Eclectic. My Blog is here, if you care to explore further. My beliefs are stated their. I have personally written as either Eternal Flame or Marked Elect. http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com

[Donnie]

Nice writing. So do you see your past in meditation or future. Do you see in meditation other yogis? Are you protected by your guru..how? Can guru protect all family if one is initiated and how?

[Donnie]

O yes and i saw your comment somewhere that you travel alot and this tAo also said that he travels..are you two musicians...

[Jim Sutherland]

Dear Donnie, I am not a Musician, but I do follow The Inner Music Concert most of the time when I am not sleeping. The travel I have done outside is , as a Tourist. The Travel I have done, inside, is as a Spiritual Explorer. I have had many glimpses of being with other people I never met in this life, as well as people I have known, but I am unable to truthfully remember past lives using these inner experiences. Most inner experiences of Practitioners of The Science of the Soul have different experiences based on their past Karma. But by practicing the Meditation Technique shared by The Great Master, Sawan Singh, all sincere Initiates who are successful going inside see the same basic visuals, of, first, sparks and flashes of Light, then the sun, or similarities of a round gold sphere, then silver grey moon, followed by different images of a silver grey Star, not 5 pointed, but as a swirling silver grey glittering diamond I experience most of the time. From that point on, experiences vary, from person to person. If you are really interested and sincere, beyond curiosity, they I suggest you persue Initiation by a Living Master. Since you know that David Lane meditates up to 4 hours daily, I suggest you ask him to refer you to the Path of Initiation. Or no doubt, Brain Hines would be happy to refer you. 😇🙏🏻💤💤💤💤

[Donnie]

Wau great....what about this ..Do you see in meditation other yogis? Are you protected by your guru..how? Can guru protect all family if one is initiated and how?

[Jim Sutherland]

Donnie, now your questions are starting to sound like Troll questions. No, I don't see "Yogis" in meditation. But what if I did? Would you believe me? Or would you try to discourage me by quoting David Lane's Neural Brain teachings, and Fakir Chand's teaching that no Yogi comes to meet any one inside? Then, even if you belived me, and rejected them, would that change your Karma and life? Would you immeditely take the Sant Mat Vows and start meditating and request Initiation from Gurinder Singh? As for your 2nd question, "does my Master protect me and how? Well, he does, but how he does it, is a mystery to me, other than by keeping me on the Path for the last 30 years which has allowed me to survive to the ripe old age of 75 and counting. "Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like a shock of corn cometheth in his season." Job 5:26. As for an Initiates family,.....we all go to our first love at death. So if an Initiate's first Love is the Master, he/ she will go to the Master, where ever he is, and if he is a Perfect Master, he will be in Sach Khand with The Father. As for uninitiated family members, they also will go to their first Love at death.If their love is for the Initiate, they will go to him who is with the Master and The Father. If their love is else where, they will to where ever their desire takes them. In the Bible, a seeker asked " What shall I do to be saved? "The answer was,..." believe in the Lord Jesus, ( the Master of that time) and you and your family shall be saved. Does the above answer your questions?

[Donnie]

As my honest questions made you calling me troll. I will not bother you anymore but will search else where, where people will not be bothered by my questions. Sorry and goodbye.

[Donnie]

.......Would you immeditely take the Sant Mat Vows and start meditating and request Initiation from Gurinder Singh?.....

....i would....

[Jim Sutherland]

Donnie, I suggest you ask Sant Mat questions on a Sant Mat Believers forum, not on an unbeliver's forum.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ishwarpuri/831709786968343/?comment_id=831814610291194&ref=notif&notif_t=like&notif_id=1485779091667995

😇😍💤💤💤💤

[Donnie]

Yo honestly Jim. Is Gurinder real guru should i start his meditation path?

[Jim Sutherland]

Donnie, private messege me at my email with your REAL Name and contact information if you are serious and not a Troll using a pseudo Moniker. I will be happy to honestly converse with an honest person with a real Name. I don't even know what country your in, much less where to refer you. Thanks. 😇Scan a photo of your Driver's License to verify your ID to me, if you are not a Troll. I have been around long enough that people that know me, know I am a harmless old fart. But an honest one, that has never once hidden behind a fake Moniker. I still stand by every thing I wrote on the internet the last dozen years. As do Brian Hines and David Lane who don't hide behind fake Monikers.

[d.d.bnatia]

mr lane, how are you. glad to know that you have respect for maharah charan stngh ji. but you believe that he was not gihf.
ok, my humble submission is if we believe that god is all powerful . we cannot restrict him to take a human form.he can do whatever he wants. guru nanak, kabir.christ were simple human beings and they are known as gihf or sons of god.then why can he be in form of charan singh or gurinder singh. why the creator who is all powerful should be always poor and not rich when he takes human form.
in fact we all are gihf's and only difference is we mave not realised god and the saints have realised . better you try to achieve realisation through surat shabad yog. leave aside this church of chuchless, do not underestimate your wisdom when you came to path and even preached the path.

[SUNIL KUMAR]

Its good to see someone has taken action against these blind followers who act like being biggest spiritual but when they're not in beas or in satsang then they're totally demon by thinking by actions. In my views RSSB or their satsang are totally against humanity. They say if you hired one rupee even from a friend or relative and you don't give it back then you'll be punished. Means you can't help any poor because there's no chance you're getting money back that you given to a poor. So this means if you help a poor you're going to make that poor a sinner because he won't give it back to you. These same radha soami aka satsangis, most of them are never paying tax to government but when it comes to 1 rupee then they'll give it back lol how easy life of satsangis. All those women with law parents are running to beas every 6 months and they don't give a damn about their old law parents at home. They just want to enjoy life? I went beas last year and during that questions and answers session so called baba g was asked a question by a girl that is it good to pray and dhoop agarbatti to God statues and baba replied you're a human and anything that gives you profit you must do it so if statue praying gives you power then you must do it. Done. Then next morning was satsang and baba said bandde ban jao. Be a man. Stop praying to statues. (looks like they had a meeting where all members decided to say this pointing at that what happened a day before where same baba had accepted statue praying. Maybe all money will then go to temples if they mistake to accept statues pray. Ok I can accept your thoughts and ambition for money.

In short if you follow being radha soami then all you have to do is to be selfish. Don't care about others. Go to satsang and take naam daan and take those 5 shabds at night and sleep. Just be yourself eat yourself enjoy yourself. Don't share with anyone. If they don't give back you make them sinner. Say radha soami and insult all other religions. Be a radha soami

[Big tutu wants to mukka mukka]

Sunil kumar you are trolling...you are probably sikh who hates all other religions. Go and train your gatka stop spreading your lies and hateness.

[777]

Hi Sir Sunil kumar
There is only One Law : Don't steal.
Begging and so receiving is not stealing
It enables a person to practise compassion which is the base of the universes called Love

Stealing applies to 'n apple, a car a wive, a planet, a smile . . . etc , but there is never punishment
The thief has just to give it back
after taking something before God gave it freely to him/her.
Give back Can be instantly , . . can be after a year, a million years , . . just as circumstances will allow the return of what was stolen
This is the Kal Computer arranging it all

However
and the following is RSSB teachings
You can learn 'LOVE' by diverse methods and that Love as a collateral thing burns karmas
As it were God is deleting old files because your love is so great
He compensates the debts , by hacking Kal's computer

If y'r good at it ( by hearing the primordial so sweet Sound (by Grace ) )
You are totally deleted from Kal's computer

It's a great method and really flabbergasting that Guru Nanak, Jesus and Buddha still are active with this procedure
It's exactly what you learn o, each page of the Guru Granth Sahib

And I didn't mention even that the method makes you remember all your past lifes, . . even the futures if needed
and you find out that it always was YOU, YOURSELF , who did all this

Affectionated

777

[SUNIL KUMAR]

You should understand any religion makes its image not by its guru or master but by its devotees. Islam is the only religion which makes its followers to pray most of the times per day. But whenever you will see over news or in cyber world you will feel like islam means terrorism. So a religion gets known and depends more upon its devotees than the master. Same way you see satsangis doing the same thing. Not everyone of them is wrong and same applies to every religion. Every devotee can't be 100% true to his religion in present times of world. There will be some value of sins for sure. But when some of the satsangis start using and thinking satsang bhavan's center's wealth as their personal wealth and they start acting like they're different or superior to others or they start insulting others then here all the basics of radha soami ends up. If you read over internet or even if on radha soami official website you'll read you can be a radha soami too by quitting non veg, alcohols and smoking. You don't have to quit your religion's basic rules and fundas like dhoop agarbatti, pray to statues etc. But when you go to beas they'll ask you to quit these things and just read their radha soami books and do dhyan etc. Isn't it fraud system to get followers?