Comments on Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh DhillonTypePad2013-11-02T02:58:48ZBrian Hineshttps://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2013/11/four-good-questions-for-a-guru-gurinder-singh-dhillon/comments/atom.xml/Appreciative Reader commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e202a30d3e3460200b2022-06-08T18:09:55Z2022-06-09T03:52:03ZAppreciative ReaderIt's cool how random comments sometimes resuscitate old threads. Like this one. This is one post, and set of comments,...<p>It's cool how random comments sometimes resuscitate old threads. Like this one. This is one post, and set of comments, that I don't think I've ever read. And it was cool to come across, in the comments, a link to this "satsang" delivered by our own Osho Robbins, apparently that very talk that got him banned/sacked from lecturing again at RSSB meets. (Where's he at, I wonder? Don't see him around here, of late.)</p>
<p>Haven't the time just now, but I've bookmarked this thread, and look forward to listening to that (in)famous speech of his later on.</p>
<p>Thanks, Venkat, for opening up this old ancient thread with your comment!</p>Venkat commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e202a30d3e3303200b2022-06-08T17:12:39Z2022-06-09T03:52:04ZVenkat"'Also, note that Akbar donated a small piece of land for Golden temple, not Golden temple itself. " It was...<p>"'Also, note that Akbar donated a small piece of land for Golden temple, not Golden temple itself. "<br />
It was not his (akbar's) land to donate. </p>Rana Mandeep commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20263e97d84ff200b2020-12-05T10:57:51Z2020-12-05T10:57:51ZRana MandeepAnd what about 10 Gurus. Most of the Girus in lineage of 10 gurus were alsmost related to each other...<p>And what about 10 Gurus. Most of the Girus in lineage of 10 gurus were alsmost related to each other father and son?</p>
<p>Any question u wanna ask from 10 Patshahis</p>
<p>Radha soami to U and Babaji bless All</p>Neon commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b7c88d6fe2970b2016-08-30T07:33:41Z2016-08-30T15:20:33ZNeonVijay, if the path is a con, then unfortunately the monthly money "seva" isn't going into people's holy account ;)<p>Vijay, if the path is a con, then unfortunately the monthly money "seva" isn't going into people's holy account ;)</p>vijay commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb0930a713970d2016-08-29T19:56:31Z2016-08-30T15:20:33ZvijayA lot of people just want hope in their lives - reading the above has made me think that I...<p>A lot of people just want hope in their lives - reading the above has made me think that I aint missing much from not attending Satsang. </p>
<p> What are you people hoping to achieve- if the Path is a con or not. Who cares. In end there is no nobody who is going to save us in this life- let alone after what ever happens after death.</p>
<p>I used to call for God in my troubled times but dont anymore- just let it be for your own sanities.</p>Jen commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b7c88cac63970b2016-08-27T22:21:48Z2016-08-29T18:31:55ZJenJust a follow on from my comment yesterday (thanks Brian for your patience). Just watching now a youtube interview "The...<p>Just a follow on from my comment yesterday (thanks Brian for your patience). Just watching now a youtube interview "The ultimate non-dual teaching with Jim Newman - Simply This" and am understanding more this transition that I am making now... maybe not even understanding than more of a feeling that this is it. Over and out. Thanks Brian.</p>Jen commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb092fbf23970d2016-08-26T22:01:40Z2016-08-27T17:32:51ZJenHi Manjit, I find your comments interesting as well as challenging. You do find the time every now and then...<p>Hi Manjit, </p>
<p>I find your comments interesting as well as challenging. You do find the time every now and then to pop in here on this blog.<br />
<br />
Do you have any suggestions on how to disentangle emotionally from RSSB. I feel like I have lost something very comforting and supportive now that I no longer believe in Sant Mat. Now I have nothing, no faith, just emptiness, which maybe is a good thing. Just a process I suppose.</p>Manjit commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb092f9052970d2016-08-26T12:41:55Z2016-08-27T17:32:51ZManjitLot of questions from an anonymous person for "Osho" to answer? I know him personally, so can confirm yes, he...<p>Lot of questions from an anonymous person for "Osho" to answer?</p>
<p>I know him personally, so can confirm yes, he was an "official" RSSB speaker, here in the UK, at least on a few occassions.</p>
<p>Secondly, you write "It appears that you were an initiate of Thakar and Darshan and not of the Radha Soami Masters".</p>
<p>Sorry, this is an incorrect statement. Both Thakar and Darshan are "Radha Soami Masters", just not of Radhasoami Satsang BEAS - they are both "Radhasoami Masters" of the Kirpal lineages/offshoots.</p>
<p>"Osho" is also an intiate of Charan (or Gurinder), so is a multiple initiate then. Always best to keep you bases covered. This week, I'll be mainly following Jehovah's Witnesses.......</p>Anonymous commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b7c88c19cf970b2016-08-26T04:54:02Z2016-08-27T17:32:51ZAnonymous@ Osho It appears that you gave an official Radha Soami Satsang that got you banned - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7jTT8Nak8 (“Radha Soami...<p>@ Osho<br />
It appears that you gave an official Radha Soami Satsang that got you banned - <br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7jTT8Nak8" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7jTT8Nak8</a> (“Radha Soami Satsang June 2002 - Osho Robbins - Part 2”)<br />
And you also say –<br />
“FYI: I was initiated by Thakar singh (kirpal's line) and Darshan Singh.”</p>
<p>Questions:<br />
1) Did you give an official Radha Soami Satsang?<br />
2) If so, Why were you giving official Radha Soami Satsang? Are you an initiate of the Radha Soami Organization?<br />
3) It appears that you were an initiate of Thakar and Darshan and not of the Radha Soami Masters. If so, why were you giving official Radha Soami Satsang? Why did the Radha Soami Satsang allow you to give an official Satsang? Are the Satsangs open to anyone?<br />
4) Why did you give the Satsang if you are not part of that Organization? Do you think it runs into ethical issues?</p>
<p>Apologies, if I missed something.<br />
</p>David W commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb0920d007970d2016-07-19T21:28:21Z2016-07-20T04:29:06ZDavid WNisha Arora, No matter how much of your billionaire life savings you give to this fake idiot guru that he...<p>Nisha Arora,</p>
<p>No matter how much of your billionaire life savings you give to this fake idiot guru that he robs from you and throws you on to the street when he is done with you and you lose not just your dignity and material advantages but your soul has been raped by this fraud guru idiot, it will never compensate for your premature public text disclosure you have written here depicting your absolute prostitute stupidity.</p>
<p>Thanks for the laugh. :)</p>Nisha Arora commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b7c87d0ea5970b2016-07-19T09:29:34Z2016-07-20T04:29:06ZNisha AroraSukhbir singh ji why not answered questions of Nisha Punjabi....it seems you have so much of time to waste on...<p>Sukhbir singh ji<br />
why not answered questions of Nisha Punjabi....it seems you have so much of time to waste on things that you have to say but cannot logically answer the question or may be you are not able to face the increasing popularity of gurvinder singh dhillon.<br />
If you can not digest someone's popularity go and try to create for yourself....<br />
oooops!!!! i forgot you can't do that at all.</p>Juan commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b7c8797712970b2016-07-09T12:00:31Z2016-07-11T02:35:35ZJuanSuch a question hasn’t born to which Babaji can't answer… Even Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh has given answers to all...<p>Such a question hasn’t born to which Babaji can't answer…</p>
<p>Even Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh has given answers to all these questions:</p>
<p>“True Masters do not come in this world for mental gymnastics, that is not their purpose of coming in this world. They come to set us free from this world and take us back to the Lord.<br />
We should not give any importance and confuse ourselves in these questions, rather we should try to seek their teachings and follow the path with faith in the Master and always try to visualize the face of Master within and do the Simran(Repetition of five holy names). That is the purpose of our lives.<br />
</p>Neon commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb091ceb96970d2016-07-09T06:26:49Z2016-07-11T02:35:35ZNeonHi, can you answer them? boney and sid? Why he come to the same family every time? Usually that's indicative...<p>Hi, can you answer them? boney and sid? Why he come to the same family every time? Usually that's indicative of a family business. Look at the sikh gurus and the family tree. After #5 they made an empire. </p>siddhartsinh commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b7c877a234970b2016-07-05T09:34:30Z2016-07-06T02:14:19ZsiddhartsinhYou all met me alone okay I Will remember Gave me your address you fool I gave you all answer<p>You all met me alone okay I Will remember <br />
Gave me your address you fool I gave you all answer </p>boney commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b8d14486a9970c2015-08-06T07:27:22Z2015-08-06T19:58:52ZboneyMr.sukhbir SINGH such a question hasnt born to which baba ji can't answer... So firstly check out your mental level...<p>Mr.sukhbir SINGH such a question hasnt born to which baba ji can't answer... So firstly check out your mental level or consult a psychiatrist... Then talk, and don't post these kind of Bullshit blogs...which hurts the sentiments of baba ji's followers...</p>Priti commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb08572dec970d2015-07-23T20:14:30Z2015-07-25T02:37:53ZPritiRadhasoami is not a religion. All Satsangis are requested not to comment further to such blogs. People commenting about us...<p><br />
Radhasoami is not a religion. </p>
<p>All Satsangis are requested not to comment further to such blogs. People commenting about us and Babaji, are innocent as they have no idea about santmat.</p>
<p>If we reply against them or hurt them verbally, we would simply add to our karmas.</p>
<p>Lets do bhajan and simran. That's it.</p>
<p>Radhasoami</p>Bullo commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb0822b0d3970d2015-04-24T05:20:35Z2015-04-26T03:23:13ZBulloQuote Jay out of my limited knowledge: ...yes you really have limited knowledge<p>Quote Jay out of my limited knowledge:</p>
<p>...yes you really have limited knowledge</p>Jay commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b8d1081242970c2015-04-23T22:19:57Z2015-04-24T02:52:00ZJayThis discussion is interesting here. But guys please keep Sikh gurus out of it for I think these modern Gurus...<p>This discussion is interesting here. But guys please keep Sikh gurus out of it for I think these modern Gurus are just taking a free ride on Sikh scriptures. An enlightened soul never criticizes/contradicts its preceding enlighted spirits. Eg. Jesus had Moses in high esteem as Mohammed spoke high of Jesus in Quraan. Similarly, Guru Nanak's jot never said anything against Mohammed, Vedas or Quran. </p>
<p>These Radha Soami masters quote Guru's bani all the time yet contradict them on other occasions. One of my relative (Satsangi) told me that Charan was nobody else but Guru Arjan's spirit in manifested form. My question to him was why would a Guru's spirit emphasize doing kirtan with musical instruments in medieval period and just reject music in 20th century? (Sikh Gurus even invented new musical instruments whose sound was closest to unstruck current of naad - eg. Saranda, Taus etc) </p>
<p>Do RSSB masters believe that Guru Gobind was not right in appointing a book as a spiritual master? I am not saying that God stopped sending Gurus in human form after Guru Gobind. But at least RSSB masters should respect Guru Gobind's act of giving guruship to Granth Sahib.</p>
<p>Those who have questions about Sikh's Guru lineage, let me just tell you 3 things out of my limited knowledge: <br />
a) Keeping the guruship in family could be attributed to Guru Amardas's boon to his daughter Bibi Bhani for her selfless service to his father. Also, if you read Sikhism in depth, Guru Nanak told long ago that his tenth form will fight injustice with sword. So, it was all preordained by Satpurakh.<br />
b) All Gurus had to go through very strict tests of their faith and devotion in order to succeed as Guru. <br />
c) Sikh Gurus had love for only one thing and that was Naam. There were several occasions when Gurus didn't even have food to eat but they accepted it happily as God's hukam (Guru Arjan and his wife lived without food for many days when Guru's elder brother Prithi channeled all the donations to himself and sent Sangat to Guru for langar. <br />
Guru Gobind's faithless Singhs (soldiers) deserted him when their salaries were not paid during testing time of battles). <br />
Those Gurus could easily multiply their wealth by joining hands with ruling monarchies as modern spiritual leaders do, but wealth and properties were not their ambition.</p>
<p>Also, note that Akbar donated a small piece of land for Golden temple, not Golden temple itself. </p>
<p>May God bless all!</p>june schlebusch commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b7c7553864970b2015-02-26T22:57:38Z2015-02-27T01:06:23Zjune schlebuschOh Raymond I know The Audible Life Stream exists..I'm just not sure where it was leading me to..That is why...<p>Oh Raymond I know The Audible Life Stream exists..I'm just not sure where it was leading me to..That is why I stopped after 50ty years.</p>Raymond Houghton commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb07f8ff80970d2015-02-26T22:36:26Z2015-02-27T01:06:23ZRaymond Houghtonhttp://profile.typepad.com/6p01b8d0de7b9c970cIn answer to all the detractors of Radhasoami and Sant Mat, I see there is NOT ONE person who starts...<p>In answer to all the detractors of Radhasoami and Sant Mat, I see there is NOT ONE person who starts off the conversation by stating that they have used 'Simran', the 5 Holy Words, to attach to Surat Shabd Yoga, the Audible Life Stream. </p>
<p>Anyone who comments here and hasn't done his/her meditation, is disqualified to comment!<br />
<br />
Before any one of you decry, insult or doubt My Master Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, try and do as he commanded - meditate for 2.5 hours a day and prove or disprove to yourself, the Truth. All of you are just chasing ego, listening to your own words and not going within.</p>
<p>Better than the wishy-washy Christian, Islamic or Hebrew 'faiths' that says you MUST believe to be saved. </p>
<p>I bet not one of you have proved that the Audible Life Stream exists, you just blab on and on and waste time!</p>Neander Woman commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb07c3bb13970d2014-12-14T05:29:04Z2014-12-15T04:56:26ZNeander WomanSukhbir Singh - the tales of Kal and all of that? I think either they lost their positions, or maybe...<p>Sukhbir Singh - the tales of Kal and all of that? I think either they lost their positions, or maybe some were demoted, during the tenure of the present guru. In fact the more exotic and story-ish elements have been put in storage...somewhere. Tis a new day bro. Out with medieval tales and in with the bottom line. What is the bottom line? Meditation. Why? Ooops, well, let me get out a few of the old stories and see if I can figure it out.</p>Sam commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201bb07c36e91970d2014-12-13T17:40:28Z2014-12-13T19:30:29ZSamI am assuming you are a Sikh or atleast a punjabi? Why are all the 10 SIKH gurus from the...<p>I am assuming you are a Sikh or atleast a punjabi? Why are all the 10 SIKH gurus from the Punjab. What stupid questions ! Yeah - Hail Sukhbir. </p>Sam commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e201b8d0a869d8970c2014-12-13T17:38:31Z2014-12-13T19:30:30ZSamSukhbir, why were all the SIKH gurus from the Punjab, YDF?<p>Sukhbir, why were all the SIKH gurus from the Punjab, YDF?</p>Sandra commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0221e3ac970b2013-12-04T16:27:17Z2013-12-04T18:23:10ZSandraSukhbir Sing, I appreciate your excellently written posting!<p>Sukhbir Sing, <br />
I appreciate your excellently written posting!</p>Sukhbir Singh commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b021c7d7e970b2013-12-04T07:59:55Z2013-12-04T18:23:11ZSukhbir Singh@ Aim4Truth I really love the title of your post: Sant Mat: Truth Teachings or Belief System? It was a...<p>@ Aim4Truth</p>
<p>I really love the title of your post: Sant Mat: Truth Teachings or Belief System?</p>
<p>It was a very promising title until you started off with your first series of questions which only reflected the bias toward belief systems and not truth.</p>
<p>Repeating something to yourself over and over again and being able to do it for hours and hours is not an accomplishment. It is a 'dumbing down' of your system. It is basically self-hypnotising yourself into a state. It is not the power of the words, but any thing repeated over and over again will give your mind a 'stilling' effect. But it is just an effect, not a sign of truth. </p>
<p>Your extremities numbing down has nothing to do with soul leaving the body 'cage'. It has everything to do with the fact that as you leave something in one position without moving it for a long time your sensations become more numb as it becomes accustomed to that position. Which makes it possible to focus the awareness on something else. In this case, on the constant repetition of phrases. Constant movement creates constant sensations.</p>
<p>Am I supposed to believe that people who see what they are taught to see are actually doing something grand? All the books mention the regions and the colors and the sounds. You can make all of it up in your head once you got it. You can hear the bell sound or what 'sounds like a bell sound' with your eagerness. "oh yeah, it does sound like a bell, this must be the first stage of the shabad". "Oh, i'm beginning to see the star and I should just look at it and do my simran and not get too excited otherwise it will all become black again." Why, oh why? Because when you are excited, you are stimulating yourself and therefore you come out of the hypnotic state.</p>
<p>People see what they are trained to see, this is not proof of the truth. It is only proof of the power of indoctrination.</p>
<p>Fundamentalist Christians see Christ, not Krishna. Followers of Eckankar see Fubbi Quantz and Rebazar Tsar or whatever (masters made up by Paul Twitchell), they don't see Ajaib Singh or Bin Laden.</p>
<p>You get it? None of your questions up there are ways of knowing the truth. However, they do show that your bias as the language in your questions is the language of belief not of a "way to know". Your assumptions about the "body-cage", and soul-travel, and mention of NDEs and studies of Shamanic (hallucinogenic induced issues) are all the same.</p>
<p>There is no way to make the teachings of Sant Mat by Beas falsifiable. You can't just stop at the meditation. The meditation is one aspect of the entire story. The story is that Sat Purush gave Kaal this world and sent souls away from His abode to fill Kaal's world. Why? Because it was his Mauj (will) to populate the world and because Kaal performed penances. Now Satpurush feels bad for his souls who are yearning for him so he comes into Kaal's world as Sant Satguru to bring souls back to Sach Khand. Satpurush is sorry for the mistake and will never do it again (go read Sar Bachan). Once the souls are back with him they are back for good. But the ones who are not yearning for him will suffer.</p>
<p>Revert back to the story of Christianity and God. God banished Adam and Eve because of their Original Sin. Now the world is suffering. God feels bad so he decides to incarnate as Jesus Christ and suffers and dies to purge humanity of original sin. Those who accept Jesus as saviour will be saved from Hell. Those who don't will suffer hell. </p>
<p>Don't you see the same fallacious background on which the two teachings are based? Don't make Sant Mat sound like it's just about the meditation and soul travel. It is build on the foundation story mentioned above. Without that story, you don't need to do the meditation required by Sant Mat. </p>
<p>There is no way the above story can be the truth and therefore your very attempt to show Sant Mat as a truth has been destroyed from your very first words after the title.</p>
<p>Enjoy your indoctrination, but don't bring bullshit masquerading as truth to this forum. You are a sincere believer. That's fine. Sincerity is not a measure of truth.</p>Aiming4Truth commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0213da88970b2013-12-03T17:53:07Z2013-12-03T18:02:58ZAiming4TruthSant Mat: Truth Teachings or Belief System? Question 1: Do you control your mind, or does your mind control you?...<p>Sant Mat: Truth Teachings or Belief System?</p>
<p>Question 1: Do you control your mind, or does your mind control you?</p>
<p>Practical exercise to help with obtaining an answer: select any single thought and then mentally continue repeating it without it being displaced by another thought. </p>
<p>Question 2: How long were you able to repeat the single thought without it being displaced by another thought?</p>
<p>Question 3: If you were NOT able to repeat the single thought without it being displaced by another thought, for an indefinite length of time, or even for two or three hours, is it true that you control your mind?</p>
<p>Question 4: If you were NOT able to repeat the single thought without it being displaced by another thought, for two or three hours, is this state of affairs the basis for your view that Sant Mat's spiritual teachings are false or invalid?</p>
<p>Question 5: If you were able to repeat the single thought without it being displaced by another thought, for two or three hours, did you notice any change of sensation in the extremities of your limbs? </p>
<p>Question 6: Do you have an easier time doing uninterrupted repetition of attention at the sex center in the body (i.e. 2nd energy center), compared with the thinking center (i.e. 6th energy center)?</p>
<p>NOTE for #6: I remember reading a spiritual revelation by a spiritual teacher (non-Sant Mat) in the early 1980s. It was about the difference between sexual ecstasy and spiritual ecstasy. I do not remember the exact language, but the revelation went something like the following: Everybody knows the thrill of the experience of sexual ecstasy, and the thrill of the experience of spiritual ecstasy is so much more.</p>
<p>Question 7: If you do not control your mind, what makes you think you possess the fitness for healthfully managing the realities of the next plane of life, much less the planes of life above the next plane?</p>
<p>Question 8: Is your body a cage to your self, or is your self free to leave the body?</p>
<p>Question 9: Is your mind a cage to your self, or is your self free to leave the mind?</p>
<p>Question 10: What kind of body are you operating in while in the dream state (lucid dreaming or otherwise)?</p>
<p>Question 11: Would you believe someone who has seen the Radiant Form of the Master and who personally told you of this?</p>
<p>Question 12: Would you believe someone who has heard the bell sound of the first region and who personally told you of this?</p>
<p>Question 13: Would you believe someone who has experienced separate episodes of receiving overwhelming inflows of transcendent spiritual energy from the Master during darshan and who personally told you of these?</p>
<p>Question 14: If you think you would believe someone who gave you a personal testimony of the things in Questions 11, 12, and 13, why won't you believe what has been said about these things in the Beas Sant Mat literature.</p>
<p>NOTE for #14: In the vernacular of this blog, I am a church member, and I happen to be of the Beas variety. I am aware of other sources of Sant Mat literature, and I have read a bit of this other literature. However, my main familiarity is with the Beas spectrum of literature. </p>
<p>If you have not had your own spiritual experiences, and if your mind has confounded you into feeling or believing that there is no spiritual reality, I would recommend the aid of serious research into Near-Death, Out-of-Body Travel, Shamanic, and esoteric metaphysical literature. Surely, not all of the authors in these fields are fiction tellers, leaving the authors of posts on this blog as the only truth tellers.</p>
<p>For those without starting places for this literature research, I can point to some beginning sources: 1) Pim van Lommel for Near-Death studies, 2) Marilynn Hughes for Out-of-Body Travel studies, 3) Hank Wesselman for Shamanic studies, and 4) Urantia for esoteric metaphysical studies. There is a large amount of literature in all of these areas, for any true research effort.</p>
<p>For those who are content with their present attainments and circlings, this post may not contribute much of value. This post is mostly for those who have a sincere and fairly deep and regularly recurring yearning for conscious connection with God. I do not claim to know anything about the ultimate spiritual reach and stature of the Shabd Saints of Beas.</p>
<p>Question 15: If it is not anti-social to leave human society and sleep for 6-8 hours a day, why is it anti-social to spend 2 or 3 hours in solitude seeking liberation from the cage of the body and lower mind? </p>
<p>NOTE for #15: The first kind of activity serves one kind of health. The second kind of activity serves another kind of health.</p>
<p>Question 16: If it is not anti-social to leave one's home territory and travel to far away lands, why would it be anti-social to leave one's body and travel to non-physical planes of reality (for those who are accomplished "travelers")?</p>june schlebusch commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b01863117970d2013-11-23T10:12:24Z2013-11-23T17:29:34Zjune schlebuschwell thank youSukhbir for you kind words >I think if we had this kind of dialogue in the Satanga there...<p>well thank youSukhbir for you kind words >I think if we had this kind of dialogue in the Satanga there would be far less Ex Satsangis</p>Sukhbir Singh commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0177b3f0970d2013-11-22T08:28:34Z2013-11-22T08:28:34ZSukhbir SinghDear June, I can not claim to understand what you are going through. However, I know that you are going...<p>Dear June,</p>
<p>I can not claim to understand what you are going through. However, I know that you are going through a very uncertain time in your life. The worldview which you have held for more than half of your lifetime has come crumbling down in your own eyes.</p>
<p>It is hard to cut the cord with something you've been associated with for so long. At this moment it sounds like you are still trying to salvage or find a reason for why you followed it; still seeing that there must have been something that attracted you there.</p>
<p>It will take a long time to heal through this. The lenses of indoctrination are cracking and you can see through the cracks. It will take time until they are broken down. </p>
<p>We support you in this endeavour and don't make light of it. Take the time you need. We are here if you have any questions. We are not going to push you to reach where we are as we ourselves have taken our own time to get to where we are in relation to RSSB.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Sukhbir</p>june schlebusch commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0176328b970d2013-11-22T05:50:36Z2013-11-22T18:50:15Zjune schlebuschHi Brian yes I agree going to Dera is not The Path and cc I don't get your drift What...<p>Hi Brian yes I agree going to Dera is not The Path and cc I don't get your drift What do you mean by the loggins (my spellings mistake) were treated with more love than the quests Ba GI is a perect host He cant be faltered on that</p>cc commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b01736bb3970b2013-11-22T01:15:58Z2013-11-22T05:14:20ZccI do not believe like 'cc' that there is no 'spiritual' - because this is subjective and science does not...<p>I do not believe like 'cc' that there is no 'spiritual' - because this is subjective and science does not work too well with 'subjective' things.</p>
<p>Spirituality is all in your mind, so your faith, your gods, your enlightenment, are all grist for the mill of psychology, which does very well with it.</p>cc commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0173c788970d2013-11-22T01:04:09Z2013-11-22T05:14:20ZccYou have free board and loggings are treated with kindness and love it feels like home.whether or not that will...<p>You have free board and loggings are treated with kindness and love it feels like home.whether or not that will lead to enlightenment or not is another question</p>
<p>Yes, the loggings were treated with kindness and love...more kindness and love than the guests were treated with, making my attainment of enlightenment that much more difficult.</p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0171fd07970d2013-11-21T20:53:04Z2013-11-21T20:53:06ZBlogger Brianhttp://profile.typepad.com/brihinesjune, volunteer service and a feeling of community indeed is great. But this can be experienced everywhere. There's a bakery...<p>june, volunteer service and a feeling of community indeed is great. But this can be experienced everywhere. </p>
<p>There's a bakery in my town that gives free slices of bread to everyone who walks in. Very generous. You don't have to buy anything.</p>
<p>No religion is peddled there. These are just generous people who have made it a practice to give away bread. </p>
<p>The Path, as you call it. doesn't have anything to do with the Dera and free lodging. Charan Singh was fond of saying that there is no need to go to any meetings. Just do your meditation. </p>
<p>What you call the Path actually is a social organization that people enjoy. Sure, free meals, free lodging, meet friendly people, have good conversations. All good. But this has nothing to do with spirituality or religion.</p>june schlebusch commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0170ad65970c2013-11-21T20:06:04Z2013-11-22T05:14:20Zjune schlebuschIm a new comer to this forum and Id like to add mine.Although very dissalusioned about Sant Mat for various...<p>Im a new comer to this forum and Id like to add mine.Although very dissalusioned about Sant Mat for various reasons , one comment I want to make is this/ Unless one has actually been to the Dera and felt the love and fellowship there I don't think one can judge the Path. It is truly amazing. I have never been asked to pay a cent. You have free board and loggings are treated with kindness and love it feels like home.whether or not that will lead to enlightenment or not is another question But I have only always experienced love Perhaps that is the problem. The love we have here in South Africa is very real that's why its so hard for me to break away but Im no longer part of the party line</p>Nisha Punjabi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b016badca970c2013-11-21T10:30:19Z2013-11-21T10:30:19ZNisha PunjabiAs far as the question of chosing Punjab as a place for spreading Santmat,You must find some time to make...<p>As far as the question of chosing Punjab as a place for spreading Santmat,You must find some time to make a trip to the world and see that there are so many religious masters on the earth.It is just that you only know about Gurvider Singh Dhillon. Only in India ,there are so many Gurus which are having Huge number of followers behind them.<br />
Now one question is here for you --<br />
Why you r raising questions only on Gurvinder Singh Dhillon? Simple reason is that The total number of followers that Gurvinder Singh Dhillon is having and the popularity ha has gained all over the world , No other Human being Living on this earth has got.</p>tucson commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0151a7db970d2013-11-19T06:22:53Z2013-11-20T02:57:25ZtucsonOsho wrote: "However, (probably like tucson) I do not follow on and say that ALL PATHS are bullshit and that...<p>Osho wrote:</p>
<p>"However, (probably like tucson) I do not follow on and say that ALL PATHS are bullshit and that science is the only 'answer'. Science has it's place but it cannot explain everything. It also has it's limitations."</p>
<p>--That is correct. Science is a belief system as well, forever mutating and changing. I think this fluidity is good. Makes things awesome and mysterious. I guess some scientists think there are immutable laws of physics. Let's just say that maybe these immutable laws are not yet fully understood. Ironically, the only "thing" that seems to prevail is "what" we perceive when we find that what we are is not the presence of what is present and the absence of what is absent, but rather the absence of what is present and the presence of what is absent. Way cool. Thanks WWW. </p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014f0bb8970d2013-11-19T01:29:25Z2013-11-19T04:10:10ZOsho RobbinsAvi, you wrote: Tucson made a very categorical statement: " I agree with Sukhbir Singh that "the whole" RSSB thing...<p>Avi,<br />
you wrote:<br />
Tucson made a very categorical statement:<br />
" I agree with Sukhbir Singh that "the whole" RSSB thing is a fraud, bullshit, a con."</p>
<p>I believe that includes all versions of RSSB Santmat - 1.0, 2.0 or 3.0 etc. etc.</p>
<p>Are you also willing to make a similar statement so that everyone clearly knows your "current mindset/stand"?</p>
<p>My reply:<br />
Yes - I agree that RSSB (and sant mat teachings) will not lead the aspirant to the goal which he seeks.</p>
<p>However, (probably like tucson) I do not follow on and say that ALL PATHS are bullshit and that science is the only 'answer'. Science has it's place but it cannot explain everything. It also has it's limitations.</p>
<p>I do not believe like 'cc' that there is no 'spiritual' - because this is subjective and science does not work too well with 'subjective' things.</p>
<p>I do not reject the whole of Taoism, sufism, zen, buddhism, and all enlightenment teachings - just because 'sant mat' happens to be invalid in my opinion.</p>
<p>Maybe Buddha (to give one example) was deluded. Maybe all of zen is total crap. Maybe there is no such thing as consciousness. Maybe love does not exist. </p>
<p>or (more likely) maybe as humans we simply reject certain things just because we have not examined them or experienced them.</p>
<p>A person who has never experienced love may say there is no love because there is no scientific proof of it.</p>
<p>Some things are outside of the scope of science. That does not mean those things do not exist - but simply that the tool is not useful in that area. </p>Sukhbir Singh commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014ec0f8970d2013-11-19T00:55:57Z2013-11-19T04:10:10ZSukhbir Singh@ Osho, Cheers bro. After meeting sat Purush my karmas are cleared, so no one can revoke the visa, haha!...<p>@ Osho,</p>
<p>Cheers bro. After meeting sat Purush my karmas are cleared, so no one can revoke the visa, haha! Now I am just creating my daily karma so that I can remain in this body and enjoy the world Kaal created just abit longer.</p>
<p>I found out that the best way to do that was to keep drinking and eating REAL burgers, bacon and steak :) , that really keeps you grounded. </p>
<p>I'm not in a hurry to get back to Sach Khand now because once I go I have to take up the mantle of Sant Satguru and I'm just not ready for it. Need much more hookah before I get THAT high. By the way Shiv, Jaimal, Rai, Sawan, Kirpl, Thakral, Ajaib, and even Paul (Twitchell) say "hi."</p>
<p>Cheers to all of you.</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014e1d3a970b2013-11-19T00:40:53Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZOsho Robbinscc, you wrote: "as far as can be ascertained" - by who? (quoting me) Your ignorance of the scientific method...<p>cc,<br />
you wrote:<br />
"as far as can be ascertained" - by who? (quoting me)</p>
<p>Your ignorance of the scientific method is your downfall, Osho. Fact is, there is no evidence of "enlightenment". No supposedly enlightened person has demonstrated anything more than a knack for attracting credulous people.</p>
<p>let me reply first with a quote:<br />
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. <br />
- Hamlet (1.5.166-7), Hamlet to Horatio</p>
<p>and your downfall, cc, is attempting to fit a round peg into a square hole.<br />
The scientific method - is a method. Not everything can be analysed by the method - it has limitations.</p>
<p>For example - how will you analyse 'love' ?<br />
There is no scientific proof of such a thing as love - so will you deny it?<br />
What about consciousness? will you deny that too? And science is not absolute - in fact it is constantly changing - once new evidence arises. Once matter was considered to be made of atoms. Then we had the wave theory. </p>
<p>Even something as 'solid' as matter is not understood by science. There are many theories - but science still does not know - all it postulates is theories.</p>
<p>here are two links to demonstrate my point.</p>
<p><a href="http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/" rel="nofollow">http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.rhythmodynamics.com/Gabriel_LaFreniere/matter.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.rhythmodynamics.com/Gabriel_LaFreniere/matter.htm</a></p>
<p>here's a quote from the second link:<br />
"Despite our immense knowledge, we are still standing in front of the Unknown"</p>
<p>and here's Osho on the "science and the inner journey"</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2u1g1dnKT8" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2u1g1dnKT8</a><br />
</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014d4202970b2013-11-18T23:01:05Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZOsho RobbinsVVIP, You wrote: Are we supposed to infer the following from the above or not? Please clarify. 1. Your old...<p>VVIP,<br />
You wrote:<br />
Are we supposed to infer the following from the above or not? Please clarify.<br />
1. Your old mindset was RSSB mindset, but you were actually part of an organisation named Ruhani Satsang/Sawan Kirpal Ruahni Mission.<br />
2. You didn't want to take a chance, so you preferred to get initiated by at least two successors of Kirpal namely Thakar singh and Darshan Singh.<br />
Thanks for clarifying as it will help many people understand where exactly you are coming from.<br />
Here are my answers:<br />
1. When I say RSSB – I mean in the loose sense – meaning SANT MAT specifically if you want to split hairs. The teachings of ruhani satsang and RSSB have been the same apart from a few minor differences – as they originated from sawan / jaimal/ swami Ji. At the time I believed there was a place called Sach Khand and a Sat Purush who ruled the region. And I was following a path to meditate to ‘get there’.<br />
2. It’s not that I “didn’t want to take a chance”. My parents were RSSB and initiated by Charan Singh. I did not know there were other offshoots until I heard about a fellow called Thakar Singh who was giving a talk in London. I went to the talk and he was talking about initiation into sound and light – which was intriguing for me at the age of 20. So I got initiated. I used to meditate 2-4 hours a day – I really wanted to get to Sach Khand. I went to Delhi to visit “My Master” and was not too impressed by what I witnessed and I met an old satsangi of Sawan Singh who came to Delhi with Kirpal and he told me the ‘real gaddi’ and power was with Darshan Singh – not Thakar Singh. He took me to see Darshan and I left Thakar and later got initiated by Darshan. Incidentally, this was before the Thakar scandal. This was all part of my ‘search’. I also met Swami Divyanand and Ajaib Singh and also Kirpal’s doctor: Dr Harbhajan (who also claimed successorship). <br />
At the time I was a seeker – searching for the ‘true path’ wearing the ‘glasses’ or sant mat (i.e. pre-supposing that sant mat is the true way).<br />
</p>VVIP commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014c4d2b970b2013-11-18T21:17:22Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZVVIPRoger, I am not an initiate of any guru. I have, however, done some research on RSSB and some other...<p>Roger,</p>
<p>I am not an initiate of any guru. I have, however, done some research on RSSB and some other organisations that emanated from RSSB after Sawan Singh's death.</p>Roger commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014c1994970b2013-11-18T20:55:47Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZRogerVVIP, Are you an initiate of Kirpal Singh? I'm curious as to how long you have been in the fold.<p>VVIP,</p>
<p>Are you an initiate of Kirpal Singh? I'm curious as to how long you have been in the fold.</p>VVIP commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014c1bee970d2013-11-18T20:14:41Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZVVIPOsho, "I am commenting on this blog with my old mindset, even though I don’t believe sant mat anymore." "The...<p>Osho,</p>
<p>"I am commenting on this blog with my old mindset, even though I don’t believe sant mat anymore."</p>
<p>"The point I was making is that I was commenting based on the RSSB mindset."</p>
<p>"I was initiated by Thakar singh (kirpal's line) and Darshan Singh."</p>
<p>Ruhani Satsang/Sawan Kirpal Ruahni Mission and RSSB are two different organisations. Ruhani Satsang/Sawan Kirpal Ruahni Mission is considered by RSSB to have been started by Kripal Singh against the official "Will" of Sawan Singh who appointed Jagat Singh (and NOT Kripal Singh) as his successor. Kirpal Singh is, therefore, considered a rebellion by RSSB.</p>
<p>Since Kirpal Singh did not publicly name a successor, after his death in 1974, a number of proposed successors appeared including Darshan Singh (Kirpal Singh's physical son)and Thakar Singh among others.</p>
<p>Are we supposed to infer the following from the above or not? Please clarify.</p>
<p>1. Your old mindset was RSSB mindset, but you were actually part of an organisation named Ruhani Satsang/Sawan Kirpal Ruahni Mission. </p>
<p>2. You didn't want to take a chance, so you preferred to get initiated by at least two successors of Kirpal namely Thakar singh and Darshan Singh.</p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying as it will help many people understand where exactly you are coming from.</p>cc commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014b4315970b2013-11-18T19:24:32Z2013-11-19T04:10:11Zcc"as far as can be ascertained" - by who? Your ignorance of the scientific method is your downfall, Osho. Fact...<p>"as far as can be ascertained" - by who?</p>
<p>Your ignorance of the scientific method is your downfall, Osho. Fact is, there is no evidence of "enlightenment". No supposedly enlightened person has demonstrated anything more than a knack for attracting credulous people...a talent you, for all your preaching, lack.</p>
<p>Enlightenment is approached as a holy grail, but it's a wild goose chase for the aspirant, and profound delusion for the one claiming attainance. </p>
<p>Brian has been giving you enough rope to hang yourself, Osho, and you've done a good job.</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014b36f6970b2013-11-18T19:19:04Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZOsho Robbins@VVIP you wrote: Is there another blog where you comment with your current or "new" mindset? if yes, you must...<p>@VVIP</p>
<p>you wrote: Is there another blog where you comment with your current or "new" mindset? if yes, you must indeed be enlightened because you can even shift between "old" and "new" mindsets at will.</p>
<p>Now you're taking the piss just for the sake of it! The point I was making is that I was commenting based on the RSSB mindset.</p>
<p><br />
You wrote: So, even in your "belief" days, you actually believed that the 'real gaddi' was elsewhere, and therefore NOT with the organisation you were part of.</p>
<p>FYI: I was initiated by Thakar singh (kirpal's line) and Darshan Singh.</p>
<p>You wrote: <br />
You just wanted a position where you could preach something and so you continued with an organisation you actually didn't believe in, till the time, of course, they threw you off.</p>
<p>Again - you are speaking nonsense. As you would know if you actually listened to the two parts of the satsang I posted on youtube - I was not preaching belief in RSSB. Where in those satsangs am I towing the party line?</p>
<p>You wrote: The fact of the matter is: in cc's words, "You, Osho, are full of shit." and just can't live without some sort of preaching all the time.</p>
<p>Can't you make your own statements? that you have to quote others? Do you have any constructive comments to make? apart from just repeating the same statements as if that will make them true?<br />
</p>VVIP commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014a649d970c2013-11-18T18:30:34Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZVVIP"I am commenting on this blog with my old mindset, even though I don’t believe sant mat anymore." Is there...<p>"I am commenting on this blog with my old mindset, even though I don’t believe sant mat anymore."</p>
<p>Is there another blog where you comment with your current or "new" mindset? if yes, you must indeed be enlightened because you can even shift between "old" and "new" mindsets at will.</p>
<p>"When I refer to ‘real gaddi’ I mean when I believed in sant mat."</p>
<p>So, even in your "belief" days, you actually believed that the 'real gaddi' was elsewhere, and therefore NOT with the organisation you were part of. You just wanted a position where you could preach something and so you continued with an organisation you actually didn't believe in, till the time, of course, they threw you off.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is: in cc's words, "You, Osho, are full of shit." and just can't live without some sort of preaching all the time. </p>Roger commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014b20c3970d2013-11-18T18:28:44Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZRogerOsho, Good comments, I liked, "Enlightenment is defined in many different ways - so to even say "it exists or...<p>Osho,</p>
<p>Good comments,</p>
<p>I liked,</p>
<p>"Enlightenment is defined in many different ways - so to even say "it exists or does not exist" is nonsense unless you first define it."</p>
<p>---When I read someplace, that there are the "enlightened few" -- I start to giggle.</p>
<p>Those few, just have their opinion. Nothing more.</p>Avi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014af348970d2013-11-18T18:09:27Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZAviOsho, Thanks for clarifying. In response to a similar query (by me) above, Tucson made a very categorical statement: "...<p>Osho,</p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying.</p>
<p>In response to a similar query (by me) above, Tucson made a very categorical statement:</p>
<p>" I agree with Sukhbir Singh that "the whole" RSSB thing is a fraud, bullshit, a con."</p>
<p>I believe that includes all versions of RSSB Santmat - 1.0, 2.0 or 3.0 etc. etc.</p>
<p>Are you also willing to make a similar statement so that everyone clearly knows your "current mindset/stand"? </p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014ae053970d2013-11-18T18:01:36Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZOsho Robbins@sukhbir Singh Then I came out of my meditation, drank my beer, ate my burger, and smiled my ass off....<p>@sukhbir Singh</p>
<p>Then I came out of my meditation, drank my beer, ate my burger, and smiled my ass off.</p>
<p>Well well well.<br />
You should not be drinking beer straight after meditation - especially after a meditation that was taking you to sat purush.</p>
<p>And definately you should not be having burgers - unless of course you forgot to mention is was a VEGGIE-Burger.</p>
<p>Just imagine if Sat purush saw you drinking your beer, eating your burger and laughing your ass off - I mean he would definately cancel your visa to Sach khand.</p>
<p>So if you do such things in future - keep them secret and don't post them publicly - you never know if sat purush is reading this blog in his spare time.</p>
<p>I personally think it's not quite as sinister - but rather they (the gurus) just believe they are really following their master's instructions. I think this was the case with Charan Singh<br />
With Gurinder Singh - he is mixing 'enlightenment' teachings in with traditional sant mat to create a new hybrid teaching. Why? Probably because he can see the absurdity of some of the sant mat teachings. <br />
Power does strange things to people and they can start to believe all kinds of nonsense.</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014a3fa2970b2013-11-18T17:33:31Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZOsho Robbins@cc: as far as can be ascertained, there is no such thing as "spiritual" anything. This is a delusional statement,...<p>@cc: <br />
as far as can be ascertained, there is no such thing as "spiritual" anything.</p>
<p>This is a delusional statement, because you are taking YOUR PERSONAL OPINION and projecting it on reality as if it was a fact.</p>
<p>"as far as can be ascertained" - by who?<br />
you or everyone? are you a spokesman for the world?</p>
<p>- the Buddha would say that I have found 'nothing' and he called it 'Nirvana' - his own word because 'enlightenment' is not a 'thing'.</p>
<p><br />
It's just your opinion - just as there is the THEIST and the ATHIEST. The person saying "there IS NO GOD" is just as deluded as the person saying "there IS A GOD".</p>
<p>The truth is - you don't KNOW - and also it depends on how you view 'God'.<br />
For example Osho's view is "there is no God" - but there is 'Godliness' - again it's<br />
his personal way of seeing reality - not reality itself.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQFUpOOINd8" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQFUpOOINd8</a></p>
<p>So you saying "there is no Enlightenment" is just your personal opinion - not a fact.</p>
<p>Enlightenment is defined in many different ways - so to even say "it exists or does not exist" is nonsense unless you first define it.</p>
<p>Once you define it - you cannot make a sweeping statement like "there is nobody who is enlightened" because one exception will prove your statement wrong.</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b014a4a26970d2013-11-18T16:58:59Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZOsho Robbins@Avi You asked me if I personally BELIEVED Swami Ji was a real guru or GIHF My answer was NO...<p>@Avi<br />
You asked me if I personally BELIEVED Swami Ji was a real guru or GIHF<br />
My answer was NO and still is.<br />
However, I am commenting on this blog with my old mindset, even though I don’t believe sant mat anymore. There is no contradiction.<br />
When I refer to ‘real gaddi’ I mean when I believed in sant mat.<br />
</p>cc commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0149dce2970d2013-11-18T16:16:19Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZccAre you really saying in a single all-encompassing statement that there is no such thing As ‘spiritual’ (however defined by...<p>Are you really saying in a single all-encompassing statement that there is no such thing<br />
As ‘spiritual’ (however defined by various people) – so the Buddha did not get ‘enlightened’</p>
<p>As far as can be ascertained, there is no such thing as "spiritual" anything. Whether the Buddha or anyone got "enlightened" is a matter of opinion and belief because there is no evidence of any such thing.</p>
<p>If you're enlightened, Osho, you're living proof that enlightenment is delusion.</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0147bd5e970c2013-11-18T13:42:25Z2013-11-19T04:10:11ZOsho Robbins@cc You are taking the statement too literally. I am saying the sense of ‘I’ the ‘me’ the personality is...<p>@cc<br />
You are taking the statement too literally.<br />
I am saying the sense of ‘I’ the ‘me’ the personality is an illusion. Therefore it is not real. It is not that ‘I’ have to drop it (which would be impossible) – but to realize that the ‘I’ is an illusion. That is what it means to drop the ‘I’.<br />
Your entire statement is based on the premise that ‘dropping the I’ is an action that is done by the ‘I’ (this premise is not true)<br />
Hence you conclude I am full of shit because you did not understand.<br />
just because you don’t understand something does not make me full of ‘shit’ </p>
<p>cc wrote:<br />
Is it fruitless because there's no such thing as "spiritual advancement"?<br />
If so, welcome to reality.<br />
My reply:<br />
Reality does not mean ‘there is no such thing as spiritual advancement’<br />
That is just your version of ‘reality’ which has nothing to do with reality as it is!<br />
Are you really saying in a single all-encompassing statement that there is no such thing<br />
As ‘spiritual’ (however defined by various people) – so the Buddha did not get ‘enlightened’<br />
(whatever enlightenment is) and zen is crap, and so is all of Sufism and all spiritual paths.<br />
All except for cc – who is the world authority on this topic – why because he says so!<br />
Is that what you’re saying? And you’re NOT deluded?<br />
</p>Sukhbir Singh commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0142d003970c2013-11-18T04:12:38Z2013-11-18T04:12:56ZSukhbir SinghHANDBOOK FOR THE NEW SATGURU (SUPREME TEACHER) OF THE RSSB (RADHA SOAMI SATSANG BEAS). In my inner journeys up to...<p>HANDBOOK FOR THE NEW SATGURU (SUPREME TEACHER) OF THE RSSB (RADHA SOAMI SATSANG BEAS).</p>
<p>In my inner journeys up to Sach Khand, I happened upon a library. I decided there was still an eternity left to go and worship Satpurush so I went to look at the books in that library. I came across a pamphlet. It was called THE HANDBOOK FOR THE NEW SATGURU.</p>
<p>HERE are some tips for the aspiring Sant Satguru from the pamphlet:</p>
<p>1. Use all existing sources (scriptures, books, etc) to cement the belief that God comes in human form. If they believe this, you've got them by the balls and can do anything.</p>
<p>Once by believe CLAUSE 1, you move on to the next clause.</p>
<p>2. Play the "Heads, I win. Tails you lose." Game. In this situation, since you are "GOD IN HUMAN FORM", you are perfect. Therefore any errors are due to the incomplete, imperfect human beings. Any good things that may happen to them are then attributed to the Mercy, Grace, Daya, of the Master.</p>
<p>When sufficient guilt and slave mentality has been achieved by playing the game in CLAUSE 2, you can move to CLAUSE 3.</p>
<p>3. Do whatever the hell you want. Why? Because your ass is covered by CLAUSE 1 AND CLAUSE 2.</p>
<p>Enjoy your Satguru-hood. </p>
<p>And Remember,</p>
<p>DON'T LET YOUR AUDIO SATSANGS BE RECORDED BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF SHIT YOU'LL HAVE TO CONTRADICT LATER. THE POINT IS TO KEEP THE PEOPLE CONFUSED AND IF THEY HAVE EVIDENCE TO IMPLICATE YOU, THEY MIGHT SUSPECT CLAUSE 1 AND 2.</p>
<p>Cheers.</p>
<p>Then I came out of my meditation, drank my beer, ate my burger, and smiled my ass off.</p>Avi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b01437531970d2013-11-18T04:02:06Z2013-11-18T04:02:14ZAviOsho, You said a plain NO in response to my question: "Do you believe Swami Ji was a REAL guru...<p>Osho,</p>
<p>You said a plain NO in response to my question: "Do you believe Swami Ji was a REAL guru or GIHF ?"</p>
<p>In other words, Swami Ji, the founder of RSSB, was fake, and by extrapolation every guru after him was/is also a fake. </p>
<p>Now, if you REALLY believe the founder of RSSB itself was not "a REAL guru or GIHF", how can you say the following:</p>
<p>1. " ..... and the real gaddi has gone elsewhere"</p>
<p>What "real gaddi" are you talking about and where exactly (in your opinion) has it gone?</p>
<p>2. "This obviously means that the beas line of masters ceased and came to an end ....."</p>
<p>Do you mean it (the beas line ....) came to an end with Jagat (just before Charan)?</p>
<p>You seem to be, at least to me, very selective in your criticism of RSSB. You want to both defend and attack at the same time. Please correct me if I am wrong but don't you see some sort of contradiction in your comments above?</p>cc commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0141da56970b2013-11-18T01:34:00Z2013-11-18T01:43:06Zcc...for so long I viewed spiritual advancement as a linear progression from point A to point F. So Fruitless! Is...<p>...for so long I viewed spiritual advancement as a linear progression from point A to point F. So Fruitless!</p>
<p>Is it fruitless because there's no such thing as "spiritual advancement", or because you've advanced by dropping your ego?</p>
<p>If the former, welcome to reality. If the latter, you're still deluded. </p>Bob Russo commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0141f6ac970d2013-11-18T00:51:07Z2013-11-18T00:54:31ZBob Russo"There is something to LOSE or DROP - the illusion that the goal is far away and that there is...<p>"There is something to LOSE or DROP - the illusion that the goal is far away and that there is a ME that is trying to get there.</p>
<p>Also - there is no 'there' to get to.</p>
<p>All effort enhances the 'ego' (ME) and the ego is the root cause of the problem in the first place because it is the barrier."</p>
<p>Yes, and for so long I viewed spiritual advancement as a linear progression from point A to point F. So Fruitless!</p>cc commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b01417688970d2013-11-17T23:50:06Z2013-11-18T00:22:31ZccRemove 'I' and there is nothing to do and there is no ME to enlighten. The 'persona' or the personality...<p>Remove 'I' and there is nothing to do and there is no ME to enlighten. The 'persona' or the personality (ME) is trying to find immortality which is impossible because it is an illusion. The unreal can never become real. And the real does not need to seek immortality because it is real.</p>
<p><br />
But Osho, if your 'I' has been removed, who removed it and who says it has been removed? Who or what will answer this question if not 'I'? </p>
<p>'I' say you're full of shit, Osho. </p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b01405599970c2013-11-17T22:52:36Z2013-11-17T23:22:21ZOsho RobbinsRSSB advocates that the goal is to be ACHIEVED through rigorous and arduous meditation on five holy words. Zen states...<p>RSSB advocates that the goal is to be ACHIEVED through rigorous and arduous meditation on five holy words.</p>
<p>Zen states that enlightenment is already the case - there is nothing to achieve or attain. There is something to LOSE or DROP - the illusion that the goal is far away and that there is a ME that is trying to get there.</p>
<p>Also - there is no 'there' to get to.</p>
<p>All effort enhances the 'ego' (ME) and the ego is the root cause of the problem in the first place because it is the barrier.</p>
<p>Remove 'I' and there is nothing to do and there is no ME to enlighten. The 'persona' or the personality (ME) is trying to find immortality which is impossible because it is an illusion. The unreal can never become real. And the real does not need to seek immortality because it is real.</p>
<p>confused?<br />
Good.<br />
Meditate.<br />
or ponder a zen koan.<br />
or do nothing</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0140f907970d2013-11-17T22:41:30Z2013-11-17T23:22:21ZOsho Robbins@bob Russo Bob, The point I was making was that the focus is on expanding the movement and acquiring property....<p>@bob Russo</p>
<p>Bob, The point I was making was that the focus is on expanding the movement and acquiring property.</p>
<p>I remember Charan Singh was asked about buying property when satsangs used to be held weekly in school halls. He was specfically against it because he said it would cause friction and he did not want anything to distract from the satsangs.</p>
<p>Now, look how much time and energy is focussed on those buildings and property. There is a constant growth and expansion - so the focus is no longer on spirituality - but on growing the organisation.</p>
<p>When people are so involved in 'seva' and the day to day running of the organisation - they have forgotten that their reason in coming was not to build centres or get distracted - but to realise the truth. The goal is forgotten when the focus is to keep people busy doing 'seva' so they never think for themselves - instead they get busy doing lots for the 'guru' and decades go by - spiritual progress is a distant dream.</p>
<p>Go back to the humble roots. Baba Jaimal singh did not even build the real necessities because he did not want anything to distract from his meditation. Can this still be the same spiritual movement, when the focus of Baba Jaimal Singh was to simply meditate and now the focus has shifted totally to expansion.</p>
<p>@just_bob</p>
<p>you got to be kidding me!<br />
The success rate with your magic formula is close to zero, if not exactly zero. You really think a person gets enlightened by repeating five words, parrot fashion?</p>
<p>You say an idiot could follow the steps. What you miss out is that most idiots do - and it's totally futile because they never 'arrive'</p>cc commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b013fc25e970b2013-11-17T20:51:53Z2013-11-17T20:59:09ZccWhy meditate according to the instructions of a person or organization that is fraudulent?" What if you don't become "enlightened"...<p>Why meditate according to the instructions of a person or organization that is fraudulent?"</p>
<p>What if you don't become "enlightened" as a result of doing this meditation?</p>
<p>If meditation is for enlightenment, then meditate on what you think "enlightenment" is until you realize you want what you can't imagine, or you're imagining what can't be.</p>tucson commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b013f7ce4970b2013-11-17T20:15:17Z2013-11-17T20:15:31Ztucsonjust_bob, The point of all the analyzing is this: Why meditate according to the instructions of a person or organization...<p>just_bob,</p>
<p>The point of all the analyzing is this:<br />
<br />
Why meditate according to the instructions of a person or organization that is fraudulent? </p>
<p>What if you don't become "enlightened" as a result of doing this meditation?</p>
<p>I meditated for a couple of decades. Nothing. Damn! Fell asleep a lot. I don't have much hair so I was unable to tie it to a rod over my head to keep me awake. Maybe that's what I did wrong. I should have pierced my ears with rings and tied them to the overhead rod. That probably would have solved the problem. Whew! Glad I figured that out before it was too late, i.e death. Back to meditation so I can get the enlightenment thing over with and get on with life. <br />
</p>cc commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b013f7e57970d2013-11-17T19:21:31Z2013-11-17T19:21:43ZccEnlightenment is an endless procession of good questions.<p>Enlightenment is an endless procession of good questions. </p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b013f4ffb970d2013-11-17T19:00:08Z2013-11-17T19:00:10ZBlogger Brianhttp://profile.typepad.com/brihinesjust bob, I guess I'm an idiot, because I don't understand your two steps. Please elaborate: (1) What kind of...<p>just bob, I guess I'm an idiot, because I don't understand your two steps. Please elaborate:</p>
<p>(1) What kind of meditation am I supposed to do? There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different sorts of meditation approaches. Do I follow Zen meditation, Christian meditation, Hindu, Islamic, Wiccan, Taoist, whatever?</p>
<p>(2) What kind of enlightenment is my goal? There are so many different ways of looking at "enlightenment." Does this mean seeing the physical world extremely clearly? Or reaching some sort of supernatural understanding? Am I already enlightened and just need to realize this, or is this a new state of consciousness?</p>
<p>And whatever enlightenment is, how will I know when I am an enlightened being? (If the criterion is asking lots of questions, yay! I'm enlightened!)</p>just_bob commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b013d6a59970c2013-11-17T16:26:27Z2013-11-17T18:24:32Zjust_bobI think you people are over analysing everything here. It's not really very difficult: Step 1: Meditate. Step 2: Become...<p>I think you people are over analysing everything here. It's not really very difficult:</p>
<p>Step 1: Meditate.<br />
Step 2: Become enlightened.</p>
<p>It's not rocket science people! An idiot could follow these steps.</p>Bob Russo commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b013d5cfe970c2013-11-17T16:19:18Z2013-11-17T18:24:32ZBob RussoOsho, I understand that RSSB is acquiring property globally. And, from where I stand - Petaluma for example - it...<p>Osho,</p>
<p>I understand that RSSB is acquiring property globally. And, from where I stand - Petaluma for example - it appears that properties are set up for large gatherings when GSD has a publically held program once every 5 years or so. In the meantime, that are used for local satsangs. </p>
<p>If this expansion is primarily to build wealth, I just don't see how RSSB or GSD's family are capitalizing on this wealth unless they sell the property or rent it out. </p>
<p>Now, since the property was purchased via donations, there is a lot of potential monetary gains available once the properties are sold. However, in the meantime and to the best of my knowledge, this ain't happening. Nothing has been sold or rented.</p>
<p>BTW, I enjoyed your satsang very much! </p>
<p>Bob</p>
<p> </p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b013b75c0970b2013-11-17T11:16:19Z2013-11-17T18:24:32ZOsho Robbins@avi I don't specifically know the answers to all your questions and I suspect nobody does because a lot of...<p>@avi</p>
<p>I don't specifically know the answers to all your questions and I suspect nobody does because a lot of it is speculation.</p>
<p>However, here are a few points to note.</p>
<p>1. Charan Singh clearly did not KNOW that he was appointed the next master. Which incidently means he was not 'all knowing' as many followers believe the master knows everything - clearly not the case.</p>
<p>2. Charan Singh did not WANT to be the master - and tried to run away from it. In fact, his diary shows that he was clearly upset at being appointed the master. He only took on the role reluctantly and did not even give satsangs for quite a while. When he did start satsangs they were pretty much rehearsed and all had mostly the same content.</p>
<p>3. Charan Singh did not claim to be spiritually advanced in any way and said he was just fulfilling a role.</p>
<p>so from the above, the following is quite clear:<br />
Charan singh was not a 'sant' in the sant mat sense of the word. He was clearly not all knowing and did not go to Sach Khand, as per the teachings.<br />
This obviously means that the beas line of masters ceased and came to an end because the teachings in Sar Bachan state that only a person who goes to Sach Khand can be appointed a master. It is not that the master gives the mantle to anyone and instantly take them to sach khand - it's not magic.</p>
<p>The teachings state that the disciple who goes to Sach khand is appointed the next successor. If there is nobody then the departing master can give the mantle to someone who goes to the fourth region or third region. Failing that - the second or first region.</p>
<p>So this also begs the question - was there nobody after sawan or jagat who was going to 'sach khand' or even a lower region?</p>
<p> Because if there was - that person must be appointed because it's about who is qualified to take on the role - not who will inherit the property.</p>
<p>In fact once it becomes about property - it has already got to the point where the spirituality has departed - and the real gaddi has gone elsewhere. Obviously if it's about inheriting property, then the priority is money, wealth and property - not spiritual truth.</p>
<p>I think anyone can see that RSSB is now heavily focused on expanding globally through acquiring property and wealth. </p>
<p>Even the people who are sevadars are all about enforcing authority and rules, not about humility, helping others or seva.</p>
<p>The fish rots from the head.</p>Avi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b013809f2970b2013-11-17T03:45:15Z2013-11-17T06:49:59ZAviThank you both Osho and Tucson for responding to my comment. Osho says: "I believe other family members who wanted...<p>Thank you both Osho and Tucson for responding to my comment.</p>
<p>Osho says:</p>
<p>"I believe other family members who wanted to make sure the dera remained in the family planned it all."</p>
<p>I agree with both Osho and Tucson that the way Charan reacted, after he knew of the successorship having been enthroned to him, provides enough evidence that he had been caught unaware.</p>
<p>I don't remember the exact words used in the the "wills" made by Sawan and Jagat, but I do know that Charan said in his "will" that he was appointing GSD as ordered by his guru (Sawan Singh). </p>
<p>Do you believe that the current guru actually gets "orders" from his guru in choosing his successor or do you think that he makes his own choice? In the latter case, please also answer the following questions: <br />
<br />
1. What does "it all" (in Osho's comment above) include? Does that include the transfer of guruship from Sawan to Jagat and subsequently to Charan or only from Jagat to Charan? In the latter case, do you mean the family members couldn't influence Sawan but they could influence Jagat? So, was Jagat more vulnerable than Sawan? </p>
<p>2. Who all could the "other family members" be? Are you referring to Charan's parents and/or his siblings etc.?</p>
<p>3. Any inside knowledge/guesses on why Charan preferred GSD over his own two sons?</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0137a2bc970c2013-11-17T03:33:38Z2013-11-17T06:50:00ZOsho Robbins@VVIP, I addressed my reply to you because I saw your post, and you are the one the one who...<p>@VVIP,</p>
<p>I addressed my reply to you because I saw your post, and you are the one the one who is counting the number number of times I have posted my links.<br />
Why is that an issue for you? <br />
And by the way, I respond in any way I consider appropriate at the time. I am not upset. </p>
<p>@avi<br />
Seeing light, the body going numb, hearing the sound, seeing the radiant form. It's no big deal. At the time it was, because I was in devotion and I made it mean something. </p>
<p>Of course to many satsangis it is a big deal because they are striving for it. However it is part of phenomena and therefore not real. </p>
<p>Ramakrishna was a devotee of Kali and could manifest her at will (as in - see her in his mind = radiant form). Totapuri, an enlightened master told him that he must go beyond all form including the form of his beloved kali. Ramakrishna killed kali (in his mind) as in "if you meet the buddha on the way - kill him". </p>
<p>Then Ramakrishna attained full samadhi because he reached non-duality wheras before he was in devotion to a personal God.</p>
<p>so seeing light, hearing sound, and all phenomena are all part of the initial stages of spirituality, where the disciple worships a personal God and seeks a spiritual thrill through light, sound, radiant forms etc. </p>Roger commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0132594f970c2013-11-16T17:52:20Z2013-11-16T20:30:26ZRoger" ..... I saw light, I heard the sound ....." ----whats the big deal?????? Are you sure a description is...<p>" ..... I saw light, I heard the sound ....."</p>
<p>----whats the big deal?????? Are you sure a description is better than better, and the best and brightest? My descriptions will always be better than the best. </p>
<p>So,come let me initiate you. Oh, I forgot I charge a $100 initiation fee.</p>cc commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0131222f970b2013-11-16T15:40:48Z2013-11-16T20:30:26ZccAvi is refering to your testimony, "I saw light, I heard the sound...", Osho, not to anything I said.<p>Avi is refering to your testimony, "I saw light, I heard the sound...", Osho, not to anything I said. </p>VVIP commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0129fbd5970b2013-11-16T04:33:08Z2013-11-16T20:30:27ZVVIPOsho, I am amazed that you got so upset just by my two comments. As you know, the comment was...<p>Osho,</p>
<p>I am amazed that you got so upset just by my two comments. As you know, the comment was actually made by cc; I just highlighted it. Don't you think you should rather have responded to cc directly? </p>Avi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b01298d38970c2013-11-16T04:22:02Z2013-11-16T20:30:27ZAviOsho says: " ..... I saw light, I heard the sound ....." Very interesting. I am curious to know more....<p>Osho says:</p>
<p>" ..... I saw light, I heard the sound ....."</p>
<p>Very interesting. I am curious to know more.</p>
<p>If possible, could you please describe in words the light you saw and the sound you heard ?</p>
<p>To be specific, for the sound, I am looking for a description which is NOT something like "purer than the purest" and "sweeter than the sweetest". Similarly, for the light, I am looking for a description which is not like "brighter/better than millions of suns shining together".</p>
<p>It's perfectly fine and I will understand that if you describe the experience as "indescribable".</p>just me commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b01269572970c2013-11-15T23:22:25Z2013-11-16T01:07:47Zjust meSukbir and Osho, Thanks for your replies. I agree with much of what you both have to say. I see...<p>Sukbir and Osho,</p>
<p>Thanks for your replies. I agree with much of what you both have to say.</p>
<p>I see a very illusionary world now. The divisions grow more than ever between the spiritual and scientific or materialistic viewpoint.</p>
<p>If it is just the brain, as science says, which creates our so called reality, I am very happy to continue exploring my own individual consciousness by quieting my mind with meditation and doing it without struggle and expectations.</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b011b62c8970d2013-11-15T06:11:53Z2013-11-15T18:34:41ZOsho Robbins@justme Not all meditation means the same thing. Not all meditation is a struggle. For example what Osho calls 'meditation'...<p>@justme</p>
<p>Not all meditation means the same thing. Not all meditation is a struggle.</p>
<p>For example what Osho calls 'meditation' is a completely different process. He says meditation is not concentration. </p>
<p>His meditation is about awareness.</p>
<p>In sant mat meditation is a struggle because they tell you it's a struggle. Sitting there for 2.5 hours repeating the five holy words and listening to the shabd - I mean - it's boring unless you are seeing light or hearing the sound - which is why the disciples desperately want to hear or see something - so they go to GSD and say "Please give me some grace"</p>Sukhbir commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b011a1811970d2013-11-15T03:49:00Z2013-11-15T06:11:03ZSukhbir@ just me, I'm not sure whether you would count my time in meditation as official meditation since I have...<p>@ just me,</p>
<p>I'm not sure whether you would count my time in meditation as official meditation since I have never been initiated. However, I did used from seeing other Sant Mat paths that this whole thing must be concocted. During the initiation process, you are told to repeat to yourself over and over again the names that were given. You are also repeating to yourself over and over again the names of the regions, the colors for each region, as well as the sounds in each region. This, to me, is nothing short of brainwashing and indoctrination. </p>
<p>More research into it brought me to my conclusion that you only see what you are told to see because you created it. The emotion of excitement, and the feeling of being blessed, and the massive hypnosis of the huge group that you were being initiated with all add to the power of the imprinting into your psyche.</p>
<p>This is why members of Eckankar see Fubbi Quantz. This is why they see in their meditation a master from Venus. If the members of Eckankar are seeing these masters, who are made up, then what is the proof that the Sant Mat meditation that RSSB is teaching is true?</p>
<p>It is an open question. But due to these observations I came to the conclusion that the methods that RSSB are teaching are completely made up; their complete cosmological system is made up.</p>just me commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b01186eca970d2013-11-15T00:43:23Z2013-11-15T06:11:03Zjust meOsho, "if it takes 3 hours for the mind to settle - then all the followers are screwed " Exactly...<p>Osho, </p>
<p>"if it takes 3 hours for the mind to settle - then all the followers are screwed " </p>
<p>Exactly what I thought when I read it. Somehow it did take the pressure off my efforts. I thought oh well, no use having any expectations then... just do what I can. </p>
<p>When I hear about Buddhist monks sitting in meditation for long periods of time I wonder how they do it. Its amazing.</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b01172725970b2013-11-14T22:48:11Z2013-11-15T06:11:03ZOsho Robbinsjust me, if it takes 3 hours for the mind to settle - then all the followers are screwed -...<p>just me,</p>
<p>if it takes 3 hours for the mind to settle - then all the followers are screwed - because they are told to meditate for 2.5 hours. That's 30 mins less than it takes the mind to settle.</p>
<p>Holy shit - that means almost nobody is going to make any progress because it's only rare satsangis who find even 2.5 hours to meditate in one sitting.</p>
<p>Anyways - moving briskly on - Baba jaimal singh meditated for 13 years - and tied his hair to a hook to ensure he didn't fall asleep. So that means it was a struggle for him too. So not many people see much inside.</p>
<p>I have personally meditated for long periods. In the days I followed sant mat - I would meditate for a whole weekend or even longer. I saw light, I heard the sound - but now I know it means nothing - all visions are creations of the mind and delusions.</p>
<p>Everything that has a form - comes and goes - is within time and space - and it maya - illusion. This includes all visions and radiant forms you may see 'inside'.</p>
<p>This is also why there cannot be a place called Sach Khand - because there is no 'place' - there is no 'form' and there is no 'time'. and everything you see inside is a figment of your vivid imagination.</p>just me commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0116a5cd970c2013-11-14T22:15:52Z2013-11-15T06:11:03Zjust meSukhbir Singh. "Went within, didn't find shit Came outside and saw the bullshit for what it was." This is kinda...<p>Sukhbir Singh.</p>
<p>"Went within, didn't find shit<br />
Came outside and saw the bullshit for what it was."</p>
<p>This is kinda funny. I remember reading Sawan Singh saying that it takes 3 hours for the mind to settle before one even begins to meditate! How many hours did you manage before you decided it was all bs?</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b010f5dfe970d2013-11-14T07:06:21Z2013-11-14T17:27:13ZOsho RobbinsVVIP, I don't go to any church to PRAY or PREY. Because I don't need to do either. I posted...<p>VVIP, I don't go to any church to PRAY or PREY.</p>
<p>Because I don't need to do either.</p>
<p>I posted the link because I (like Brian) used to be a speaker for RSSB. And I decided I would post the satsang because it was clearly a threat to RSSB - otherwise why ban me? Since it's my talk - I have taken the liberty to post it on youtube.</p>
<p>Doesn't make me a 'preacher' any more than it makes you a preacher for posting the above comment.</p>
<p>You obviously have an issue with what you call 'preaching' and you think it is in some way a 'bad' thing. I would suggest that RSSB is preaching to the world - because it has a dogma and teaching to actually preach. Not that 'preaching' is a 'bad' thing - whether to the choir or anyone else.</p>
<p>I say - preach to your hearts content. In fact I suggest you start preaching too - might take you beyond your issue about 'preaching' since this is the second time you have posted this comment about preaching. </p>
<p>by the way for anyone who has missed them<br />
here are links to some of my youtube<br />
videos</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwTQiZb_8zs" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwTQiZb_8zs</a></p>
<p>and for good measure - here's a link to an osho video - about confusion</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xggTJCCxFss" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xggTJCCxFss</a></p>VVIP commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b010b539a970b2013-11-13T22:45:16Z2013-11-14T17:27:14ZVVIPWhen "I" gave a talk which actually woke people up to the truth ..... I think this is the fourth...<p>When "I" gave a talk which actually woke people up to the truth .....</p>
<p>I think this is the fourth or fifth time in the last one month or so that Osho has posted the link to his talk on this blog. </p>
<p>That again proves the point cc made on a related post:</p>
<p>"....... This (blog) makes for a congregation composed of recovering believers (like the founder of this church) and preachers (like Osho) who, unable to draw their own audience, come to this church to prey."<br />
Posted by: cc | November 08, 2013 at 10:36 AM</p>
<p><a href="http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2013/11/faith-is-pretending-to-know-things-you-dont-know.html" rel="nofollow">http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2013/11/faith-is-pretending-to-know-things-you-dont-know.html</a></p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b010aaf19970d2013-11-13T21:00:05Z2013-11-14T17:27:14ZOsho Robbinssageseeker, The truth is that RS is the same as any other religion. It has no special truth. There is...<p>sageseeker,</p>
<p>The truth is that RS is the same as any other religion. It has no special truth. There is no 'going inside.' It's just another belief system. Read Fakir Chand who states that it is all fiction. <br />
The idea that the master will come at the time of death and save the disciple is the main motivating factor for disciples to follow the RS path.</p>
<p>How many people do you know who will tell you clearly that they have made spiritual progress (whatever that is). Everyone thinks that others have attained and one day they too might get there. Dream on. Even Babani Ji (who devoted many years of his life to Radha Soami) realized in the end it's all about money. No compassion for the poor people who just wanted their rightful property. They had to file a lawsuit to claim what was rightfully theirs (and they had paid for). Is this how a spiritual master who is unattached to money behaves?</p>
<p>How would you feel if you was one of those satsangis who had their property taken from them? RS has become all about money. It is a far cry from it's humble roots. It is totally commercialized now. Even satsangs are conducted by people who have no direct experience of what they are talking about. </p>
<p>When I gave a talk which actually woke people up to the truth and the people who heard it loved it - the politics of sant mat came into play to start the process to ban me from being a speaker. This is not how a real spiritual organisation would behave.<br />
This is the talk I gave that got me banned:<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7jTT8Nak8" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7jTT8Nak8</a></p>Sukhbir Singh commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0108d088970d2013-11-13T17:34:19Z2013-11-14T17:27:14ZSukhbir SinghGo within and ye shall find all answers. (that you make up or that others have made up for you...<p>Go within and ye shall find all answers. (that you make up or that others have made up for you and which can't be verified.)</p>
<p>Stay outside, and see only bull </p>
<p>The third option:</p>
<p>Went within, didn't find shit<br />
Came outside and saw the bullshit for what it was.</p>
<p><br />
</p>sageseeker commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b0103a857970c2013-11-13T08:28:02Z2013-11-14T17:27:14ZsageseekerGo within and ye shall find all answers. Stay outside, and see only bull<p>Go within and ye shall find all answers. <br />
Stay outside, and see only bull</p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00ff4f34970b2013-11-12T22:43:11Z2013-11-13T03:22:58ZOsho Robbinsin reply to sukhbir singh's comment above (9 nov) "Kirpal Singh, himself, also used to allegedly say that successorship can't...<p>in reply to sukhbir singh's comment above (9 nov)</p>
<p>"Kirpal Singh, himself, also used to allegedly say that successorship can't be passed on by wills. And he spent a lot of time criticising the fact that guru-ship can't be held in the family. However, as the time for his death approached, he wrote a will and gave it to his son (Darshan Singh) according to his account. Sant Ajaib Singh didn't agree with this and said Kirpal Singh gave it to him."</p>
<p>It is questionable if Kirpal really wrote a will. The will emerged much later and thakar singh was inhabiting sawan ashram in Delhi. </p>
<p>Kirpal always said "I want many ambassaders" so I really don;t think he left a will.</p>
<p>Also - there was not so much property at stake - compared to Beas. His personal doctor also claimed to be the successor. </p>
<p>It's all an ego-trip and delusion. You can believe anything you want to believe. Visions, Radiant forms, master coming at death - it is all in the realm of mind and the mind can create any reality.</p>
<p>True enlightenment is about the end of seeking - Like the Buddha said "I found nothing".</p>
<p>No time - no Space - No mind - No thing. <br />
No soul to be saved - No Sach Khand - No Sat Purush.</p>
<p>The idea that there is a ME to be saved is the delusion. There is no ME therefore there is no need to save it. The 'soul' is not real - it is an illusion. There is no separate soul and therefore it cannot be saved. The separate self is a delusion created by the mind because we have separate bodies. We start to assume we must have a separate soul too - which is seeking union with the oversoul (God).<br />
Sant mat teachings say that you are a separate soul and by effort (meditation) you have to merge into God. In fact you are not separate. You just need to realise there is no separate person. The deluded sant mat follower wants to make sure the master will come at death and save him. He won't because there is no soul to be saved and there is nowhere for the master to take the soul and there is no master either. All these are duality teachings. Enlightenment is about the ONENESS - which means nothing to do and nowhere to get to. </p>Osho Robbins commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00f23e7f970d2013-11-11T16:56:20Z2013-11-12T04:07:46ZOsho RobbinsTucson wrote: “Sawan may have told Kirpal that he was to be the successor, but certain individuals within Sawan's inner...<p>Tucson wrote:<br />
“Sawan may have told Kirpal that he was to be the successor, but certain individuals within Sawan's inner circle got wind of this and did not want Kirpal inheriting the whole thing. So, they took advantage of Sawan's mental "frailty" and made sure the Dera properties remained within the family by "assisting" him in signing the proper documents. Undeterred by this, Kirpal went on with his duty, whether or not Sawan actually intended it, or it was simply Kirpal's egoic desire to be in the position of guru. I have no way of knowing any of what I wrote above. It is pure speculation.”<br />
Many years ago I met an old satsangi at the dera and he told me it was common knowledge at the time of Sawan Singh that Kirpal was going to be the successor. Sawan was very close to Kirpal and it was strange that towards the end he was told not to come to dera until he was called. <br />
Perhaps this too was some kind of conspiracy to make sure Kirpal was not around while ‘they’ had the will written. While Kirpal Singh claimed to be the true successor, Charan Singh was clearly saying “I ain’t got no clue what the heck is going on here – one thing is for sure, I ain’t no sant sat guru”<br />
See – this is the whole point which RSSB followers don’t get:<br />
Charan Singh clearly said “I have no spiritual progress”. He said he would play the role of guru, since his master had written it in a will. Well according to sant mat teachings – a line of successors comes to an END if there is nobody who has made spiritual progress and goes to Sach Khand. Charan Singh clearly said he has no spiritual progress. That means the line of gurus is over – and they are now FAKE!<br />
There is no allowance for “But he will get to Sach Khand soon.” Or something like “The previous master’s power is transferred to the new master.” As this makes a mockery of the disciples because if even the master did not get there by his own meditation (and was given a BOOST) then what chance has the disciple got? Obvious answer is: no fucking chance. <br />
Avi wrote: <br />
It would have made absolute sense (at least to me) if Sawan were to give the property and even the guru position to Charan directly and not to (or through) Jagat. But, as per my knowledge, neither Jagat nor Kirpal were part of Sawan's family. Are the two of you assuming (or implying) that Jagat was just part of an arrangement (because he was a close confidant) who would eventually handover everything to Charan? And if yes, would that imply that Charan knew all about this all along? </p>
<p><br />
My response:<br />
I do not believe that Charan knew any of this – on the contrary he did not want to become the successor. I believe it was a set-up. Charan Singh was clearly surprised and even then did not want to be the guru. It’s even in his private diary entries. I believe other family members who wanted to make sure the dera remained in the family planned it all. Don’t forget – it was a lot of property – worth a lot of money. It has allowed GSD to become personally wealthy because of the influence of his position. I doubt if he would have been in a position to make some of those business deals if he was not in a position of power as the head of RSSB. Charan Singh himself avoided accumulating too much property at least abroad and was happy simply to give out the teachings.<br />
However, under the leadership of GSD, the intention is for RSSB to become a wealthy and well-established religion (or science of the soul as he likes to call it). It has already become a religion with it’s own established dogmatic beliefs. Like for example that meditation will get you to God.</p>
<p>I have set up a facebook page - so anyone can comment on it and become part of our 'group'.<br />
it is called<br />
www.facebook.com/TruthAboutSantMat</p>
<p>feel free to go there and post any comments<br />
or start new discussions.</p>just me commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00ed90ad970b2013-11-11T07:36:15Z2013-11-12T04:07:46Zjust meSome see the world as a beautiful place, some see through the lens of indoctrination while others use reason and...<p>Some see the world as a beautiful place, some see through the lens of indoctrination while others use reason and logic to make sense of the world. When some wake up to the programming and conditioning and the illusionary aspect of the world they see a prison planet.</p>
<p>To each their own.</p>Avi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00eb162b970b2013-11-11T02:19:01Z2013-11-11T06:17:06ZAviSukhbir, I loved reading your comment. Wonderful articulation! "I'm just stating the glaringly obvious inconsistencies if you don't have the...<p>Sukhbir,</p>
<p>I loved reading your comment. Wonderful articulation!</p>
<p>"I'm just stating the glaringly obvious inconsistencies if you don't have the "lens of the indoctrinated" on."<br />
</p>Elizabeth commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00eabef6970c2013-11-11T01:47:53Z2013-11-11T06:17:06ZElizabethTucson: I like so much the way your mind travels : what you say is always superb reading and I...<p>Tucson:<br />
I like so much the way your mind travels : what you say is always superb reading and I thank you.<br />
By coincidence I will be in Bangkok at the time of GSD's visit. I may or may not attend.<br />
Elizabeth W</p>Sukhbir Singh commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00ea3980970c2013-11-11T00:34:42Z2013-11-11T06:17:06ZSukhbir Singh@ just me - Naam is granted at the age of 25. So no matter how much I wanted it...<p>@ just me - Naam is granted at the age of 25. So no matter how much I wanted it at that time, it was not going to happen. Anger is not a feeling that I had in regards to that. The attitude was more like "everything in its own time" and "if it's meant to be will happen".</p>
<p>So the plain answer is that my position is not coming from anger and there is nothing to blame. I just did further research and started seeing all of the inconsistencies that any person who has not been indoctrinated into the conditioning and using the circular logic via Sant Mat literature would see. And then as I grew up I started seeing that this is not the path for me. I then explored many more paths (not superficially, but really got into it). Started seeing the same thing.</p>
<p>So, no, I am not operating from the position of finding a fault with Sant Mat. I'm just stating the glaringly obvious inconsistencies if you don't have the "lens of the indoctrinated" on. </p>
<p>You can go ahead and look for higher consciousness if you want. I'm not saying it doesn't exist with full certainty. What I can say with full certainty is that Sant Mat in RSSB does not have it.</p>Avi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00ea0f8b970b2013-11-10T23:54:14Z2013-11-11T06:17:06ZAvi"This world looks to me like a disaster area with no hope on the horizon." I don't think so. No...<p>"This world looks to me like a disaster area with no hope on the horizon."</p>
<p>I don't think so.</p>
<p>No doubt that there is a lot of suffering but, IMO, the world can indeed be made a better place to live. I believe that every one of us can and should continue to do our bit in trying to improve the situation in our own unique ways. For example: rather than making any donations to big organizations - religious or non-profit, I started, a few years back, helping a couple of deserving poor children directly by paying for the cost of their education. I feel good about it when I see the impact, howsoever small it may be.</p>
<p>Occasionally, I visit the local Hindu temple here in the USA. I have observed that there are quite a few people who donate $500-$1000 every month to the temple. Most of this money goes either in making unnecessary improvements in the temple building or paying salary for the two temple priests both of whom live in big houses and drive luxury cars. I sometimes think $500 per month can easily pay for the education of 25 poor children in India.</p>
<p>Overall, the world is a beautiful place but the beauty also lies in the eyes of the beholder.</p>NC commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00e944e2970b2013-11-10T22:07:22Z2013-11-11T06:17:06ZNCDaisyDuke Interesting insight into the similar issues back in the days of Sikh Gurus. 3rd Guru's daughter married the 4th...<p>DaisyDuke<br />
Interesting insight into the similar issues back in the days of Sikh Gurus. 3rd Guru's daughter married the 4th Guru, and the Golden Temple was gifted to the Gurus's back then...HMMMMMMMM</p>just me commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00e845b2970b2013-11-10T19:56:54Z2013-11-11T06:17:07Zjust meSukhbir Singh, " I was deeply into reading only Sant Mat literature, praying internally to GSD to give me Naam,...<p>Sukhbir Singh,</p>
<p>" I was deeply into reading only Sant Mat literature, praying internally to GSD to give me Naam, "</p>
<p>So you weren't granted Naam? Is this the reason for your anger, resentment and looking for fault? </p>
<p>Anyone looking for fault in any organisation will definitely find something. People have many failings. This world looks to me like a disaster area with no hope on the horizon.</p>
<p>As for the question of the reality of a param sant sat guru, who knows? Is there a higher consciousness or awareness? Still worth looking for it imo, instead of playing the blame game.</p>tucson commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00e7d8f1970b2013-11-10T18:59:59Z2013-11-11T06:17:07ZtucsonAvi, This conversation about Sawan, Jagat and wills is so speculative on my part that I don't even think it...<p>Avi,<br />
This conversation about Sawan, Jagat and wills is so speculative on my part that I don't even think it is worth addressing any seeming contradictions in my comments. I just don't know. It may be me who is suffering from mental frailty. Beware!</p>
<p>I agree with Sukhbir Singh that the whole RSSB thing is a fraud, bullshit, a con. I could be wrong. It would be cool if I was wrong because as an initiate of Charan Singh I would be destined, at least within 3 more lifetimes, to be escorted under the guidance of the perfect sant sat guru of the time, to dwell on spiritual dweeps inhabited by exhalted hansas, sip nectar from Mansorovar to be washed clean of my karmic load, and ultimately sit in the presence of Sat Purush whose radiance is so bright that one hair on "his" body is equivalent to a million suns. Once this is accomplished, never again would I, this lowly jiva, return via rebirth to this foreign outpost, this gross region of Pind, a filthy cesspool-like dark corner in the cosmic scheme of things. Instead, I will soar on the wings of Shabd to regions incomprehensible, glorious and vast beyond measure.</p>
<p>Somewhere amongst all the gurus directly or remotely associated with the Radha Soami movement there may be one or two who actually had some "power", some kind of esoteric vision or ability to "see" how things are in the grand scheme of things. I think this is possible. Often in great stories there is a basis or element of truth. In such a vision I think God would be pretty bright.. radiant like millions of suns.</p>
<p>Mike Williams, who comments here from time to time, has a website devoted to the history of Radha Soami. In case anyone interested has not seen it:</p>
<p><a href="http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/" rel="nofollow">http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/</a> </p>Avi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00e2647a970c2013-11-10T05:30:30Z2013-11-10T18:59:08ZAvitucson, Your arguments do make complete sense to me. Please correct me if I misunderstood you but, isn't there some...<p>tucson,</p>
<p>Your arguments do make complete sense to me.</p>
<p>Please correct me if I misunderstood you but, isn't there some sort of contradiction between your earlier comment:</p>
<p>"So, they took advantage of Sawan's mental "frailty" and made sure the Dera properties remained within the family by "assisting" him in signing the proper documents."</p>
<p>and your last comment:</p>
<p>"This could blow the theory out of the water of wanting to keep the Dera ownership within the family."</p>
<p>More specifically, are you referring to two different things by the phrase "with in the family" in the two comments above?</p>Sukhbir Singh commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00e16c26970b2013-11-10T02:54:25Z2013-11-10T18:59:09ZSukhbir SinghReally loving the discussion the discussion and where it's leading. It does seem however, that some people here think that...<p>Really loving the discussion the discussion and where it's leading. It does seem however, that some people here think that the while the "gurus" we are discussing are false, they believe the concepts might be real and that it is only a matter of finding out the "most viable and legit candidate who is currently holding the mantle of Sant Mat."</p>
<p>In my view, it is all totally concocted bullshit. Very plainly and very simply. This doesn't speak well for me because from the age of 17-22 I was deeply into reading only Sant Mat literature, praying internally to GSD to give me Naam, and all the usual bullshit of that sort.</p>
<p>To me, all of them are equally fooling either themselves or their followers. Some of them I believe, can be deluding themselves as well, being thoroughly taken for a ride by their belief system.</p>
<p>I mean when, like Kirpal Singh, you start saying something like "Master Sawan made me the successor by sending me the energy through his eyes," you start getting into the wacky zone (unless you are indoctrinated in it and by it and so that statement actually sounds like a legit way for gurus to operate). Kirpal Singh, himself, also used to allegedly say that successorship can't be passed on by wills. And he spent a lot of time criticising the fact that guru-ship can't be held in the family. However, as the time for his death approached, he wrote a will and gave it to his son (Darshan Singh) according to his account. Sant Ajaib Singh didn't agree with this and said Kirpal Singh gave it to him (again "Through the eyes") and that the successorship wasn't legit.</p>
<p>It's just a "he says, they say" game. There is no history of Sant Mat only hagiography in the guise of legitimate history. It's all nonsense from the time of the hookah-smoking Shiv Dayal all the way to the all the current branches of Sant Mat teachings. Taking a ride on the scriptures of the Sikh gurus (which I also believe was not free from this game of keeping it in the family). </p>
<p>I feel it is possible that the delusion is not one-way. The teachers themselves are deluded into believing their predecessors. Somewhere along the line, there was definitely one that was not deluded but carried it on.</p>
<p>Once again, I'm ranting. Can't control it when I start typing all this shit just comes out. Haha.</p>tucson commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00de7c81970c2013-11-09T20:28:43Z2013-11-10T18:59:09ZtucsonAvi wrote: "Are the two of you assuming (or implying) that Jagat was just part of an arrangement (because he...<p>Avi wrote:</p>
<p>"Are the two of you assuming (or implying) that Jagat was just part of an arrangement (because he was a close confidant) who would eventually handover everything to Charan? And if yes, would that imply that Charan knew all about this all along?"</p>
<p>--No one knew when Jagat would die. <br />
As it turned out he died three years after Sawan. But it could have been 10-20 or more years. So, one would assume that they were prepared for Jagat to hold the mantle of Sat Guru indefinitely. This could blow the theory out of the water of wanting to keep the Dera ownership within the family. Charan may not have been part of any original plan but was resorted to when Jagat passed away early. </p>
<p>Again, high speculation on my part, of course.</p>
<p>Personally, I think Charan was truly taken aback by his appointment, as evidenced by his behavior at the time (running away and hiding briefly), and had no foreknowledge of it. </p>Avi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00d47537970b2013-11-08T22:16:49Z2013-11-09T04:02:56ZAviThanks, Osho, for answering my questions. I really appreciate that. "GSD happens to be a businessman and so he says...<p>Thanks, Osho, for answering my questions. I really appreciate that. </p>
<p>"GSD happens to be a businessman and so he says wealth has no conflict with spirituality - which I actually agree with. You dont have to be poor to be spiritual." - Osho That's alright. But the problem is that GSD actually preaches otherwise, at least that is what I heard him saying about 5 years ago when I last attended his satsang in India.</p>Avi commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00d470ba970b2013-11-08T22:14:28Z2013-11-09T04:02:56ZAviOsho says, "Why would Sawan give the property to family if he gave the real spiritual mantle to Kirpal?" Tucson...<p>Osho says, "Why would Sawan give the property to family if he gave the real spiritual mantle to Kirpal?"<br />
Tucson says, "So, they took advantage of Sawan's mental "frailty" and made sure the Dera properties remained within the family by "assisting" him in signing the proper documents."</p>
<p>It would have made absolute sense (at least to me) if Sawan were to give the property and even the guru position to Charan directly and not to (or through) Jagat. But, as per my knowledge, neither Jagat nor Kirpal were part of Sawan's family. Are the two of you assuming (or implying) that Jagat was just part of an arrangement (because he was a close confidant) who would eventually handover everything to Charan? And if yes, would that imply that Charan knew all about this all along? <br />
By the way, I myself have always suspected just that and am trying to see if there are others who also think/believe likewise. In fact, to go a step further, I also suspect (and I did express that suspicion in another post earlier) that there could also be some undisclosed arrangement between GSD and Charan's sons in terms of Dera property. Of course, I also have no way of knowing any of what I wrote above. It is just a suspicion. </p>tucson commented on 'Four good questions for a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2019b00d246c8970c2013-11-08T17:55:01Z2013-11-09T04:02:56ZtucsonSawan may have told Kirpal that he was to be the successor, but certain individuals within Sawan's inner circle got...<p></p>
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<p>Sawan may have told Kirpal that he was to be the successor, but certain individuals within Sawan's inner circle got wind of this and did not want Kirpal inheriting the whole thing. So, they took advantage of Sawan's mental "frailty" and made sure the Dera properties remained within the family by "assisting" him in signing the proper documents. Undeterred by this, Kirpal went on with his duty, whether or not Sawan actually intended it, or it was simply Kirpal's egoic desire to be in the position of guru.</p>
<p>I have no way of knowing any of what I wrote above. It is pure speculation.</p>
<p>Some of Paul Twitchels's writings were verbatim plagiarisms from RSSB books. And other spiritual figures he wrote about such as Fubi Quantz were taken from the writings of another mystic/writer whose name and book titles excape me right now since I delved into this matter long ago and have not given it much thought for decades. THAT writer was also considered by many to be a fraud and therefore Eckankar, Sri Darwin Gross, Sri Gary Olsen and others that sprung from it. Generally, I think, the whole thing is a business/ego/power opportunity, the lure of which cannot be resisted by some to exploit.</p>
<p>I agree with most of Osho's response to Avi above.</p>
<p>The big question. Is there a Sat Purush?</p>
<p>Probably not in the sense that most Satsangis conceive of it. There is, I think, an interconnectedness of all things from here to the farthest galaxies and universes which paradoxically are here also. This interconnectedness may be accessed by superconscious attunement and seen as a stupendous cosmic mandala pattern of grand design by no one. It just is. It is sort of a great flow/procession of energy culminating in splendorous light into infinity. It is a big bang that never began or ended. We are stardust. We are golden. We are IN the garden. No getting back to it.</p>
<p>Man! That was good acid.<br />
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