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October 02, 2013

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I really liked the way you wrote about your likes - both mini and major!!

The most insane people don't care at all whether you validate the meanings they give to things and events because they're totally absorbed by their insanity.

The things we don't need or want validation for are, as you say, Brian, little things like personal preferences. But if we're concerned about big things like global warming, social injustice, human rights, animal rights, freedom of speech, education, etc., we want validation for whatever it is we're doing to address these concerns, even if it's no more than bumper stickers and hand-wringing.

We want to feel good about what we're doing, and having our work, our words, validated by others is what is what makes us feel good...unless, that is, we're crazy enough to feel we're above all that.

Meanings are pure fiction. They are made up.
Yet we believe they are true and real.

They are not. This is a huge wake-up call for most
people. It was for me - over a decade ago because I
realized I had been living in a dream world of my own
creation, made up of my opinions which I considered
to be facts.

Take Radha Soami Teachings as an example.

They make many statements - as a matter of FACT.
They pre-suppose many of those statements as fact,
when in fact they are just beliefs.

Here are a few of them:
The purpose of life is to get to ‘God’
God is REAL
The method is meditation on 5 words
Those words are special
The current head of RSSB is a perfect master
There is such a thing as a perfect master
The perfect master is all knowing and all powerful
if you meditate you will hear the shabd
if you meditate your soul will leave the body
You have a soul
the master will come at death
you will survive death

In a similar way - a muslim has beliefs about the Koran
and Allah and the purpose of human life.

The strange thing is: EVERYONE (except those who
realise meanings are fictional) really thinks that their
beliefs are actually FACTS.

RS people like to hang out with other RS people.
Muslim believers like to hang out with other believers.

advaita people like to hang out with advaita people.

If you have an argument with someone - you like to
call a friend to validate the fact that you was RIGHT and
the other person was WRONG.

The friend agrees with you because he or she is your
friend and it’s a favour you do for each other.

A friend is someone who buys into your bullshit,
without calling you on it.

My life is all about ONE THING: That I am RIGHT.
Is it true? Do you agree with me? Am I right or what?

This ‘being RIGHT’ is HUGE. It runs our whole life.

We spend our whole life proving we are right.

When in fact we are not right or wrong because there
is no right or wrong. It’s all pure fiction. It’s all made up.

We feel we are GOOD people - again total fucking bullshit
because there is no GOOD or BAD.

It’s all relative - it’s all created from the MEANINGS I create.

If there is an ‘enlightenment’ it is in this.

In the total realization that I am making it all up.

right, wrong, good, bad, true, false, better, worse etc.

These do not exist - but they APPEAR to exist, because
there is a ME here and with ME comes MINE.

So some things are BENEFICIAL to ME! Those things
I will call GOOD.

If I win the lottery today - that is GOOD for me! but in reality
it is nothing.

If I get married - I might think it’s good.
If I get divorced I might think that is bad (or good)

If someone close to me DIES - I think it is BAD!

but the truth is It’s NOT! It is what it is. There is no inherent
meaning.

Inherently - LIFE is not better than DEATH. They are both
the same. We create the meaning.

A child is born without any meaning. Then slowly meanings
are created.

osho,

As usual, this is very good:

"We feel we are GOOD people - again total fucking bullshit
because there is no GOOD or BAD.
It’s all relative - it’s all created from the MEANINGS I create.
If there is an ‘enlightenment’ it is in this.
In the total realization that I am making it all up.
right, wrong, good, bad, true, false, better, worse etc.
These do not exist - but they APPEAR to exist, because
there is a ME here and with ME comes MINE."

--Is there a non-relative, say an ABSOLUTE? Is the "absolute" just another relative term? I always love this topic.


Yeh, yeh. So now the meaning comes from there is no meaning and people can join a blog where they can spout this about there is no meaning and like minded people will validate this new belief you are spouting ... there is no meaning... hallelujah

Quote... "it’s all created from the MEANINGS I create"

This is great, I can be completely selfish and care only about the things I care about because that gives me a meaningful life... woohoo

Hi Meaningless

you wrote "So now the meaning comes from 'there is no meaning' "

NO - I am saying it's all meaningless (inherently)

and it means nothing - that it is meaningless

There is no need to add a meaning to "meaningless"

It is like trying to explain what is 'nothing' to someone who
only understands 'things'

so he thinks that 'nothing' is just another thing called nothing

so we can't create a new religion of meaninglessness

because it means nothing to be meaningless.

The absence of meaning.

Once you realise that you create all the meanings

you get free from the meanings

you can even go on creating meanings - but now you know they are
not real - they are your creation - your personal fabrications.

So now you cannot be a hindu, christian, muslim or radha soami.

You cannot be anything - because it's all made up.

You can only be who you are - which is unavoidable.

You cannot spend your life DOING good because there isn't any good

You have to create a meaning in order to invent the idea of GOOD.

when a Radha Soami follower goes to SEVA - he thinks it is a GOOD thing - but good for WHO?

as humans 'meaning' is real for us. We are meaning making machines.

In the 70's there was a training called EST.

in two weekends they took the participants to the total realisation that all meanings are made up - and there is nothing to get and
nothing to achieve and nothing to attain.

on the last day they ask everyone "Who still hasn't got it?"
they get them to stand on their chair.
then they ask each person
"What is it that you have not got?"

they invariably say something like "Well - I got nothing"

to which the trainer replies - "For four days I have been telling you
there is nothing to get - and you are still under the delusion that
there is something you need to get"

call it a mind fuck - or whatever - but it is a huge wake up call
when you realise that you have been living a fictional life trying to
be a good person - trying to do the right thing.

and then you realise - it doesn't exist.

Almost everyone on the planet is trying to be a GOOD person and
to do the RIGHT thing.

when you tell them it doesn't exist - they will look at you like you
have just gone insane - when in fact they are insane for creating all
these meanings

Mr. Osho

somehow your meaning of meaning is a intellectual cul-de- sac that reminds me of this 7 second clip from the film The Neverending Story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rO2HZKyazw

"because it means nothing to be meaningless.
The absence of meaning.
Once you realise that you create all the meanings
you get free from the meanings
you can even go on creating meanings - but now you know they are
not real - they are your creation - your personal fabrications."


---it means no-thing to be meaning-less.
The absence of meaning could be such.

One could become free from the meanings, however i'm not sure there is anyone that absolutely knows the absolute 'absence' of meaning.

We can/could come to some realization, and become free of our mind created meaning. My non-real meanings can be my creation and my personal fabrications. No big deal... Life goes on.

My 2c:

I don't like the idea that life is meaningless, it's too nihilistic to be a tenable position. By saying that the meaning of life is God Realisation, this gives us a grounding for leading a good, moral life and gives us some direction for taking us to a place where we know we will be happy.

Brian, what do you think about the holographic universe theory?

The universe we live in as a "data information system". Because we are inside this system we cannot perceive it from the outside. The brain is like a computer and interprets this data and projects it out into this physical world which we then perceive as so called reality, but it is actually illusionary.

So then the question is, what is this "impersonal" data information system from which the brain is downloading, the information we rely on to make meaning and sense of this life in this physical plane?

I like to think of this system as consciousness, have totally moved on from the God/spirit/soul belief systems.

What are your thoughts on this Brian?

On a lighter note and with due respect to everyone, IMO, the post that was supposed to take us away from the "philosophical" discussion has actually ended up becoming (and is continuing to become) more philosophical than many other posts on this blog.

" ..... whatever I find to be meaningful doesn't need validation." - Brian

On reading Brian's original post, I thought that the simple message and the crux of the whole post was that, may be, we shouldn't look for validation or a "certificate" (by others) for our likes/beliefs - both "big" and "small".

But, as a matter of fact, most of us do look for these validations, and, may be, the strength or the intensity of the "need" or "want" for the validation is directly proportional to the "subjective value" we attach to a particular like/belief. Perhaps that's the reason that we have more blogs/bloggers discussing spirituality/religion than iphones vs. android phones and much less discussing their favorite fruit, I guess.

I agree with cc that discussing "big things" basically fulfills our need/want to "feel good about what we're doing, and having our work, our words, validated by others."

That also probably explains the ongoing discussion on this particular post. We do want validation from others on what we believe/like to believe about presence/absence of "meaning" in/of life.

When you come across something that's new to you and, rather than testing it for validity, you accept or reject it, your behavior is invalid. This is what's wrong with the mind that accepts, adheres to, and identifies with religious precepts. Religious people are mental invalids.

In some matters validation is necessary and often requires the validation of others as in peer review. In others matters, no validation is required.

Avi wrote: "We do want validation from others on what we believe/like to believe about presence/absence of "meaning" in/of life."

validation is about getting confirmation that " I was RIGHT"

but the truth is you was NOT right (or wrong) because they are
all just OPINIONS and points of view.

there are many points of view.

Validation is about the belief that MINE is RIGHT.

An extremist muslim might blow up a building or become a
suicide bomber and kill thousands of people.

we might seek validation that he was WRONG

but was he?

He is busy seeking validation that he is RIGHT.

This is what meaning is all about.

What is RIGHT and GOOD and MORAL.

What is WRONG and BAD?

It's all made up.

The suicide bomber is not wrong, or right.

Is it a GOOD thing to realise life is meaningless?

Just_bob says he does not like the idea that life is meaningless

He likes the idea of creating a meaning.

Creating a meaning is fine too - just so long as you know you are
CREATING it - and it is NOT REALLY THERE.

As long as you know you are playing a game.

Because as long as you are alive - you may as well enjoy the ride.

getting depressed because life is meaningless is another trap.

because "it means nothing that life is meaningless" means (here we go again with meanings) that it is not a bad thing and we don't need
to get depressed over it.

if you get depressed - it means you have added a meaning to
'life is meaningless'

So - once you 'get it' that life is meaningless
now - you can choose to create any life you want and to create any
fictional meanings you choose - knowing full well that you are making it all up.

The key step is in knowing that all meanings are made up,
because now you don't have to seek the 'truth' - there isn't one.

The truth is - there is no truth.

The true religion is 'no religion'

The end of all searching and seeking.

This is where the Buddha arrived.

But then his followers come along and create a whole lot new
set of meanings and create another religion around what should
have been the end of all religion.

This - creating meanings thing - runs pretty deep because it is
deeply programmed into all human beings.

We need meanings as much as we need food. It becomes the food
our mind needs to survive.

It's uncomfortable to enter the world of no-meanings because
there is nothing to hold on to - no certainties - no validation.

just a huge massive vacuum and a black hole.

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