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August 19, 2013


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Don't you just hate it when your guru dies and you're left with nothing but the organization you built around him?

I couldn't have said it better myself. You hit all the points. Corrupting power, ego encouraging teachings, brainwashed sense of privilege, military style dictatorship with mindless followers, devolved idiots giving satsangs like puffed up peacocks to cooing braindead zombies. Sorry, getting carried away. Actually I feel sorry for the earnest seekers who live in hope for enlightenment and believe that Babaji is the real deal. So sad indeed. Especially for their families who deserve so much more from them.

What keeps a RSSB disciple firmly in the grasp of the cult?
There are a number of factors and they are related to the primary motivations of a human being:
Human beings only do two things in life
(1) They seek pleasure
(2) The avoid pain

The pleasure that a RSSB follower gets is:
(a) they get to believe they are privileged disciples and the master will save them at the time of death and take care of them and their close ones.
(b) They believe they are the LUCKY ONES who have found the true living master and that this rare opportunity happens after many lifetimes
(c) They believe that RSSB has the REAL TRUTH about life and inner regions and that the master really is the master of the universe, and a close associate of God!
(d) main sevadars and speakers and secretaries have the additional pleasure of a massive ego and status boost because the sangat looks up them

The pain they avoid is:
(a) knowing they are not alone at the time of death, and the master will come personally to save them.
(B) the bad karma which they believe they will incur if they turn their back on RSSB.
(C) The family disapproval they will suffer if their families have been followers for a few generations

Leaving is not so easy to do because the follower has to give up all these benefits. So it is the path of least resistance to carry on following. Most of the followers are only following because its the only thing they know and it feels good to be part of the special group.

Facing the truth is mighty uncomfortable and people rarely do it unless they have to.

The person doing the seva that day, who asked me to stand on the other side - really believes he is doing some sort of useful service to master. If only he could wake up and see that what he is doing is not service at all. How does it benefit anyone if I stand on the other side of the path?

"order are orders" is the stuff that creates wars! That is why every country has brainwashed people called 'the army' who are required to follow orders and never think. If they were allowed to think - they would refuse to drop bombs. But they have been conditioned to be heroes for dropping bombs.

The sevadars are no different. They are following orders. They are army recruits and the higher sevadars are the generals. They are all nothing more than slaves of the system.

My recent experience when he visited a few weeks back was that the sevadars were simply helpful and not pushy.

Something not mentioned but that I believe to be extremely relevant?! The pot of gold. What is the pot of gold? It is physical proximity and access to the Guru. I have seen people behave very badly when they feel their position inside the organization, and the access it affords them, is threatened. People like to position themselves for the magic of darshan. One glance ya know. I know one woman whose ambition is to somehow be included on the Dera's "A" list. What the heck is the "A" list anyhow? Anybody know?

You say the sevadars were simply helpful and not pushy. That will be your experience unless you do anything against their 'helpful suggestion'. Even as little as not sitting down exactly where they say. Just try it and watch the drama unfold.
I was at a main satsang once, and I accidently walked on the wrong side of a rope. The sevadar asked me to go back and walk on the inside of the rope.
I thought he was joking. I asked him what benefit he will get if I go back and walk on the other side of the rope. He could not answer, so I refused and he asked me what centre I was from. What's that got to do with anything? I told them I have no centre. Perhaps I should have said the ‘eye’center.
What is the benefit if I go back and walk inside the rope? It is utter nonsense. This is called seva?
The sevadars are really crowd control staff and spies designed to make sure you don’t smuggle a phone or recording device into satsang.
I once saw a lady standing in the middle of the sangat, pretending to be lost, asking people if she can borrow a phone to make a call. When someone offer her his phone, she immediately told him he should not have a phone and sent him to check it in.
A clever trick – it turns out she was a sevadar, and this was her clever ploy to make sure nobody has their phone with them.
Getting on the A-list is about power. Getting to the top is just like the rat race. Those same people may have come out of the rat race and then find they are still in it. It just changed forms.
They are all deluded into thinking that one glance will wash away their sins. Those who are with the guru and work close to him are still as deluded as anyone, so it’s obviously not working.

Osho -- yes, and then there is a higher expectation of an organization that is (allegedly) all about spirituality. So we expect a more refined interaction, I suppose.

As and IF I understand darshan -- it is the fervent hope that a gracious glance will come, maybe, rather than assuming it already has. Just being around a Saint does not qualify one for that glance, however. But that is part (not all of) of the desire for being around the guru...that traditional Indian thing. I believe the other part is some triggered endorphin, dopamine, sarotonin natural bio-chemical event
that happens with deep belief in, and feeling for someone, esp. if that someone is physically present. Such deep and abiding emotional (i,e, devotional) responses are, to say the least, very memorable. So the disciple/person wants to position themselves to have that experience as often as possible. The natural high of being around someone believed to be ineffable and Sovereign. Sovereign with a Capital "S"....in the highest sense.

Naturally when it comes to Seva (serving the guru?) perhaps the footnote of serving the Sangat IS serving the guru -- is oft lost in the flurry of bhakti animations.


I am no fan of rssb and in most agree with your views, but regarding your recent experience- if your honest with yourself- you are being rather pedantic. This issue is that you was obstructing the flow of "traffic" and where there is traffic there must be a system, and you cant not expect the system to adjust to your view, you are an intelligent person so i dont need to give examples etc. overall i say keep up the good work Osho, but dont lower yourself.

I can completely relate with it. I am never manhandled so badly even at the security checkpoints at airports as I was treated at Dera. Those illiterate and brainwashed women at the checkpoint at Dera treated me like a terrorist. During my last trip, they yelled at me for not hurrying up while my little one was crying. (Though there was no line.)

Also inside the satsang hall, they push you like herds. Though being a NRI, I was treated special with those white cushions to sit ( racism as its best) but pushing was bad. I even told the lady in white suit not to push me, she stared back at me as if she is going to kill me. Compassion? really? These people looked like hired Goondas in a mafia clan!

Oh, I know! Those sevadars are so bossy and pushy! Sometimes I wonder why I belong to this idiotic cult! Jeez! Lighten up, guys! Can't a humble devotee get some respect?!

I've heard Babaji say darshan is like a spotlight. The farther you are from the source the wider the beam. Those sitting next to the source are often the most in the dark.

I fully take your point about obstructing ‘traffic’
(1) There was very little traffic and more importantly
(2) I DID stand to the side as instructed. I agree that it was reasonable for the sevadar to ask me to step to the side – which I did. The incident became confrontational only when he asked me to stand on the other side and not on the side where he was standing.
The point here being that the primary purpose of getting out of the way of traffic had been fulfilled. The logic behind being asked to stand on the ‘other side’ escapes me. Why was I being asked to stand on the other side? Perhaps there was a mango tree there – so I could eat mangoes while waiting.
That is why I asked the sevadar the reason for his ‘request’. I even said I would comply if he gives me a logical reason like the mango tree scenario. He had no reason to give other than – “I am asking (ordering) you to do so and you need to comply”. Sorry matey – but I am not a slave to anyone. The best reason he could give was “I have been instructed to do this.”
Now I am going to take an intelligent guess. It is most likely that he has been asked to make sure nobody obstructs the walkway. Not specifically which side of the walkway they should stand on. Most likely he added that himself. And the real reason he is upset is because I did not give him the ‘respect’ he deserved as a sevadar. And his ego was hurt.
This is actually the whole point of being a sevadar – to look at your own ego and drop it. But what will happen in RSSB is the ego will get strengthened because other sevadars will come and support him – thereby confirming that he was ‘right’ all along. Food for the ego.

I've heard Babaji say that his followers are idiots.

I had to end a friendship of ten years with my closest pal because of his obsession with seva. It consumed his weekends but it also consumed his ego....he was a different person around non-satsangi's; friendly, funny, trying hard to blend in but he never dared speak about his beliefs; when the subject of religion cropped up he would say he was a Sikh....with his boys at Haynes Park he would talk about how the Sikh's had lost the way by not having a living master. It was like he lived a double life and the Seva personae he took on was very serious. He was only ever friendly to other sevadars as he considered them his equals. Consequently....feigning humility leads to more and more pride....people who are truly humbled by reality soon learn that humility doesn't always feel sweet but it's necessary to appreciate gratitude. I always thought the point of a sevadar was to serve the sangat in a loving and approachable manner...these days the masses at Haynes Park are seen as human furniture....seems like in RSSB there are too many cowboys and bot enough indians :-)

CC that was so funny you made me spit my drink out. I could totally see him saying that too. I think he and his family laugh their guts out at the stupidity of the sheeple who would all happily jump off the nearest ledge if he were rumoured to have possibly suggested it. And now i'm giggling as I picture the sevadars keeping everyone on the proper side of the line on their way to the ledge. If it weren't so scary it would be hilarious indeed.

If it weren't so scary it would be hilarious indeed.

The only scary thing about it is that there are so many idiots eager to do as they're told by their self-appointed masters.

Here's another way of looking at things.

Last time I attended satsang when GSD visited, as per usual I wanted to sit at the back and leave quietly before the rush at the end... standing in the entrance queue and being asked to hand over my handbag I started to protest and then pulled myself together and became very "present" and heard myself thinking.. I really don't want to do this. So, I quietly, calmly, politely said to the sevadar, "I really don't want to do this" and he took a little step backwards, looked at me thoughtfully and said, "okay sister if you really don't want to, thats okay" and I walked into satsang.

You dont need a TSA-background to be a RSSB-sevadar, but it helps.

I quietly, calmly, politely said to the sevadar, "I really don't want to do this" and he took a little step backwards, looked at me thoughtfully and said, "okay sister if you really don't want to, thats okay" and I walked into satsang.

He conceded because you were humbly honest instead of pathetically compliant, but what if you had questioned his right to make such a request of you? What if you had politely refused to comply?

You behaved submissively, and submission to their authortiy is all they want from you, regardless of how you express it.


The RSSB guru is not self-appointed.

The RSSB guru is not self-appointed.

This is your religious testimony. If you didn't decide to follow the guru, who or what is responsible for your slavish devotion? Please don't answer this by making another statement of faith. Prove, show, demonstrate, if you can, that your will (ego) is not the decisive factor in this matter.


Was saying this in a legal sense. He was appointed, or left in charge of the whole thing via a Will.

Slavish devotion? Hummm. Why the accusation?

Actually I don't even know who I am-- let alone who anybody else is -- including Mr. Gurinder Singh, etc.

Everyone has a temporary self-portrait, I suppose. Comes in handy.

"He conceded because you were humbly honest instead of pathetically compliant, but what if you had questioned his right to make such a request of you? What if you had politely refused to comply?

You behaved submissively, and submission to their authortiy is all they want from you, regardless of how you express it."

His right to make such a request? He's just following the rules and that is his right to do so and not for me to judge what others do. If he had refused my desire to take my handbag in with me I would have simply walked away and not gone into the satsang.

We live in a system guided by rules in this world and Sant Mat is an organisation within a system as well. We can either be defiant, submissive, or withdraw.

I probably shouldn't be commenting here but I am churchless and used to feel disgruntled like others on this blog. Just expressing another point of view here.

We live in a system guided by rules in this world and Sant Mat is an organisation within a system as well. We can either be defiant, submissive, or withdraw.

Really? What about just being reasonable? When an authority figure asks you to surrender your purse before entering the premises, don't you want to know why? And if you think you already know why, don't you want to know why you belong to such a paranoid organization?

Everyone has a temporary self-portrait, I suppose. Comes in handy.

Slavish devotees believe they're divinely inspired - not just playing out their fantasy. Comes in handy.

"And if you think you already know why, don't you want to know why you belong to such a paranoid organization?"

Aah, but cc I don't belong to any organization, neither the satsangis nor the ex-satsangis.

I like Brian's latest post about how we are all searching for security. Belonging to a group or clan is exactly that... seeking security with likeminded people with the same opinions. Yes, we all suffer from ego. There is ego that keeps us separate by feeling special because we are different and also ego that makes us feel we are always reasonable and knowledgeable when we have others agreeing with our opinions.

...we all suffer from ego. There is ego that keeps us separate by feeling special because we are different and also ego that makes us feel we are always reasonable and knowledgeable when we have others agreeing with our opinions.

The notion that we "suffer from ego" is religious nonsense. We suffer from ignorance of our cognitive biases and our tendency to authorize others to do our thinking for us.

Take the time and trouble to look closely at your suffering as you experience it and you'll realize that chalking it up to "ego" is an excuse for not finding out what's really going on.


Beautifully said. I couldn't agree more with you.

The point is; it's not always about the request a sevadar makes...it's the way in which the sevadar makes it...undertones of arrogance...the request should be humble because that is part of the Sant Mat system is it not?
So the satsangi's are told to live a life of humility but as one goes up the pecking order of RSSB the humility can be relaxed....I wonder how humble it is at the top....it's just like any corporation...what they are selling the masses is hope...something very intangible.

...the satsangi's are told to live a life of humility but as one goes up the pecking order of RSSB the humility can be relaxed

Where there's a pecking order there's no humility, but believers think they can have it both ways.

Humility has to do with awareness of how mistaken and deluded you can be - not with spiritual upward mobility.

Why all the fuss,

All sevadars are equal but sum are more equal than others

Since I left RSSB I found solution to almost every problem that was haunting me then. I feel much much better now.

Why the anger at others for the way they behave, why the blame game? If you don't like something what is that need to find justification for your dislike?

"Psychological projection was conceptualized by Sigmund Freud in the 1890s as a defense mechanism in which a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to objects or persons in the outside world.

Freud considered that in projection thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings that cannot be accepted as one's own are dealt with by being placed in the outside world and attributed to someone else. What the ego repudiates is split off and placed in another."

Why the anger at others for the way they behave, why the blame game?

When you see someone behaving stupidly, foolishly, irresponsibly, and you see the needlessly destructive and tragic consequences of their behavior, what is your response?

Just Me wrote:
"Why the anger at others for the way they behave, why the blame game? If you don't like something what is that need to find justification for your dislike?"

There is no blame. To interact with a person (like a sevadar) and to even disagree with his actions does not mean there is automatic blame.

Blame only occurs if a person feels victimized and considers the other to be 'wrong' in some way.

When the above incident happened at haynes - I definatly did not feel victimized and I did not blame the sevadar. In fact I rather enjoyed the whole incident. It was just a game I was playing and enjoying. There was no bitterness or blame.

In his eyes I was 'wrong' because I was not obeying his orders and therefore the master's orders. However, I only created the 'scene' for a little light entertainment. It really did not matter to me even if I got throw out. I just enjoy watching how some of the sevadars get so carried away with their 'duties'.

On the one hand a RSSB initiate is trying to get to 'God' through meditation. On the other hand he gets caught up in ego-trip.

A true seeker would simply refuse to be a sevadar or to 'covert' anyone until he himself had the results. Only then can he authentically say his path is correct - otherwise it is the same as every other religion - the blind leading the blind.

Every RSSB follower simply BELIEVES he has found the truth and he mistakes that BELIEF for the TRUTH. He thinks he KNOWS - when in fact he simply believes.

And belief keeps you blind, forever.

Hi cc: you wrote:

"When you see someone..."

Who are you "seeing"? Typing here, reading posts on Brian's blog, I wouldn't (thinking for myself) call that "seeing" anybody. If we were to get together for a cup of coffee we might end up laughing and sharing all kinds of stories. We might part the best of friends, enriched by the experience. That would be difficult here.

You chose the words: stupid, foolish, irresponsible...those are unkind words....they suggest anger on your part. Are you angry? If we were sitting and chatting together, I would have more clues..voice inflection, body posture...etc.

"needless destructive and tragic consequences.."

Do you have a specific person in mind that suffered tragedy and destruction because of the Radha Soami religious faith? Because IMO, these intense words are best reserved for events like the the Bubonic plague, Fukushima, Chernobyl, floods, earthquakes, wars; ya know, things that murder, wound and kill millions of humans and other life, and/or bring unprecedented harm to the natural world.

A few years back I met Brian and his wife at a satsang weekend, thus have a picture in my head of Brian...a reference. My impression? Brian is a funny, quirky, insightful, and approachable dude. His wife seemed quite wonderful and even more insightful than Brian. Point being?, I count that as partially "seeing". A legitimate foot in the door of "seeing". ( Also, if I had not met Brian my appreciation of his blog here would probably would be different.)

Osho you wrote:

"Every RSSB follower simply BELIEVES he has found the truth and he mistakes that BELIEF for the TRUTH. He thinks he KNOWS - when in fact he simply believes."

Have you met every follower? My experience has been that not every initiate is really convinced of the veracity of the teachings, nor the spiritual status of the current head sevadar (Mr. Gurinder Singh). I have heard some spectacular disclaimers -- some so very funny they'd me ROTFL. The non-Asian, Western sangat is getting pretty old, testy and more than a tad cynical.

It is a sad story. The teacher believes he is God yet he is not. Who will rescuee the children that did not grow up for many reasons?

If you are laughing and smiling
and having a good time .......

do you really care if you drop dead
right now ?

ILoveDrAnn quoted me:

"Every RSSB follower simply BELIEVES he has found the truth and he mistakes that BELIEF for the TRUTH. He thinks he KNOWS - when in fact he simply believes."

and asked:
Have you met every follower? My experience has been that not every initiate is really convinced of the veracity of the teachings, nor the spiritual status of the current head sevadar (Mr. Gurinder Singh).

When I wrote "every follower" I was specifically referring those who follow the RSSB path and consider it is the 'truth'

Of course there are those who take the teachings with a pinch of salt. I was not referring to them as they are not technically 'followers'

A follower, in this context, is someone who has faith in Gurinder singh and believes he is a true satguru and GIHF.

The point I was making is that those followers take it for granted that they are on the right path and that RSSB really is the only 'way'. They are not open to the possibility that they are simply following another religion, and are just brainwashed like the followers of any religion.

Every brainwashed follower of every religion believes they really have found the 'truth'. They also 'know' that all the other religions are deluded.

There are two ways to be fooled.
One is to believe what isn't true;
the other is to refuse to believe what is true.
Soren Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a
state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”
--Thomas Jefferson, 1816.

"The individual is handicapped, by coming face-to-face, with a conspiracy so monstrous, he cannot believe it exists. The American mind, simply has not come to a realization of the evil, which has been introduced into our midst . . . It rejects even the assumption that human creatures could espouse a philosophy, which must ultimately destroy all that is good and decent."
- FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, 1956

“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.”
THOMAS PAINE (1737-1809)

“There’s a plot in this country to enslave every man, woman and child. Before I leave this high and noble office, I intend to expose this plot.”
– President John F. Kennedy before his assassination

“The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot
to destroy the American’s freedom and before I leave office, I
must inform the citizens of this plight."
-President Kennedy was assassinated on the
22nd of November, 1963 ten days after he
made this speech to Columbia University
on Nov 12, 1963.
He knew what you are finding out now.

"Who controls the food supply controls the people;
who controls the energy can control whole continents;
who controls money can control the world."
Henry Kissinger

Quote osho
“Every brainwashed follower of every religion believes they really have found the 'truth'. They also 'know' that all the other religions are deluded.”
...“And belief keeps you blind...”

Yes yes yes! So true!

Regarding just me’s comment about Freud and cc’s quote
“Why the anger at others for the way they behave, why the blame game?
When you see someone behaving stupidly, foolishly, irresponsibly, and you see the needlessly destructive and tragic consequences of their behavior, what is your response?”
and the referring comment of IloveDrAnn (August 24,2013m 10.39 AM):

I want to say that I am noticing „projection“ -as Freud described it- very often with myself and with others.
But -
Projection is also true the other way round, so to say: the positive way round:
The only possibility to understand/perceive the “you”, the view of the others, is through one’s own thinking. There is no other way. Only by use of one’s own thoughts the thoughts of others will become somehow understandable. Nobody is able to “put oneself in the others shoes”.

How can someone understand the thoughts, motivations, desires of others? Only with the aid of his own way to look on things.
How can someone comprehend his/her own thoughts, motivations, desires? Through projecting them on his counterpart, assuming that the counterpart is thinking and feeling like himself.
Everybody is defining himself through his counterpart.

referring to cc's comment
"When you see someone behaving stupidly, foolishly, irresponsibly, and you see the needlessly destructive and tragic consequences of their behavior, what is your response?")
I thought that this statement was concerning the “projection-phenomenon” mentioned by just me, that makes it unnecessary to blame others.
I think that not every behaviour is comprehensible through the “projection-method”. Opinions and behaviours differ. Fortunately. That’s what makes life everlasting a juicy phenomenon.

There is projection, no doubt, but not every behaviour is projection. So, blaming others for their stupid behaviour also has it’s right of approval.

things that murder, wound and kill millions of humans and other life, and/or bring unprecedented harm to the natural world.

Religion/spirituality with it's anti-science bias and its dishonesty bears more responsibility for suffering, misery, and destruction than any natural disaster. Most mass murder is, when not orchestrated by religion, condoned by it.

Brian is a funny, quirky, insightful, and approachable dude. His wife seemed quite wonderful and even more insightful than Brian.

Why be snide? Wouldn't it have been enough to say she was insightful?

Yes, the rot of authoritarianism in RSSB has been going for sometime.I was not suprised by the blog article at all

Who controls the energy...Mike wrote.
Who controls the thinking about energy. The big bang? Do we really life inside a nuclear explosion? Children of the bomb.
Before Einstein there was Tesla wo was litterally the bringer of the light but he was ignored. There is no energy in matter but from the environment.
Children of the sun!


obviously -- religion, science, knives and words are useful or destructive, depending on the kindness, nobility, and wisdom of the human(s) involved. Science as a method of inquiry can't, obviously, totally compensate for the defects in human nature (such as short-sightedness, greed, hubris, and easily taking offense) and neither can religion. If we are looking for something to blame...the study of our dear cousins, the chimpanzees, might be a good place to start.

Here is a pretty good NPR article:


As a die-hard RS-fanboy, I will concede that the RSSB sevadars can be power-tripping weirdos. Which is ironic given that the main thrust of the teachings is to decrease your ego as it's a barrier on the spiritual path. So the next time a power-tripping weirdo sevadar tries to bully you around, just feel pity for their wretched soul and know that you aren't any better than them.


The position of being a sevadar is ego-enhancing. The higher up your seva the more your ego. There is no way to avoid this. As a sevadar in a position of power, you have to exert your ego as part of your job.

Can you imagine an egoless sevadar?

The dialogue would go like this:

sevadar: can you please stand to one side?
sangat member: No, piss of you lunatic
savadar: As you wish. I am sorry to have bothered you today.

the sevadar would not last every long because he would get fired. RSSB needs egotistic sevadars to enforce the rules.

a humble sevadar is a contradiction in terms. A sevadar has to enforce rules.

Ironically this means you cannot become a sevadar if you want to make spiritual progress. Being a sevadar is a barrier to spiritual progress because it is ego-enhancing and the disciple is trying to diminish his ego - not enhance it.

Why would a sincere disicple ever become a sevadar? Why would a sincere disciple want to boss the sangat around? only a egoistic disciple can want to be a sevadar.

Why would a sincere disciple ever become a sevadar? Why would a sincere disciple want to boss the sangat around? only a egoistic disciple can want to be a sevadar.

….This is part from a newsletter of RSSB Spain:

Master repeatedly tells us the key to spiritual success. Three S.

SIMRAN: We can only realize its power when we do it. Its power is revealed over time.

SATSANG: Master has given us one of the most powerful links to keep us in his company by offering us the opportunity to attend satsang. Satsang is the weekly balm that soothes our pains and worries.

SEVA: Seva is at the cornerstone of Sant Mat.
Simply put, seva is one of the greatest gifts of the Master to bring home the awareness of our weak little egos. How else can we be made to realise our insignificance, to shed our self-importance? When we perform our seva, whatever it may be, with the right attitude of mind, MASTER DRAWS US TOWARDS HIM.

Juan quoted from rssb newsletter:
“Seva is at the cornerstone of Sant Mat. Simply put, seva is one of the greatest gifts of the Master to bring home the awareness of our weak little egos. How else can we be made to realise our insignificance, to shed our self-importance?”
Okay, so now relate this to the REALITY of what happens in seva at RSSB. When was the last time you saw a sevadar who had a weak little ego? How does ordering the sangat about make you realise your ‘insignificance’? I have yet to meet a sevadar who shed his self-importance through seva. However I met a lot of sevadars who had massively inflated egos through their seva.
So it appears to be having the opposite effect.

Dear Osho, was not because of your own ego that you decided to "take on" the sevadar in the first place? What was the purpose of your visit, other than to cause some poor guy tension, for your own amusement? And then make assumptions about what would happen next.

Jay, our ego, or sense of self (as illusory as it may be), makes us do everything.

Act humble. Act boldly. Act however. Your ego made you write the blog comment you just posted. Mine is leading me to write this response.

Such is the way the world, and we, are. Yet you seem to be implying that Osho's actions were tainted by ego, whereas the sevadar's weren't. How could this be?

This letter of complaint looks very childish, you are looking at ego of others but what about your own ego. The problem with us is that we don't behave in way how we want others to behave in. This year in April satsang a girl asked similar question to babaji about the behavior of sevadars. Babaji said ideal conditions don't exist but we must adjust our self to adjust according to the conditions. If you felt sevadars behavior was bit out then you should have displayed humbleness. Its very easy to see whats wrong with others but we seldom do some intro-inspection. Being a sevadar doesn't mean he is one of the best person living on this planet. Sevadar is just another person l like us who is doing the task assigned. Rather being humble if we start complaining about things then it defeats the purpose of following santmat. There is a saying little knowledge is dangerous thing. Babaji says if you dont do bhajan simran then its not guaranteed that guru will come when you die. Will you expect to get paid if you not go to work? Would you pay your workers for not coming to work? Then why do you expect guru to come when you die? Statement which you have made about babaji saying he would not come at the time of disciples death is incomplete and very un thoughtful. If you were blue glasses you will see everything blue, if you wear red glasses you will see everything red and if you look for reason to complain and moan, you will find many. "Any true seeker would run away as fast as they can before they get caught up in the power struggle and rituals of RSSB", a seeker cant be a true seeker if he wastes time in learning about the power struggle in RSSB. A person who is dying of thirst wont go out looking for a clean glass to drink water but would look for any water he can find. Similarly a person who truly seeks god will focus on what he wants rather than wasting time on finding about power struggles.

fancy finding people behaving with ego's. shocking! move on people... nothing to see here...

Hi Lalit, you quoted babaji saying about the behavior of sevadars. Babaji said ideal conditions don't exist but we must adjust our self to adjust according to the conditions.
You may think Baba Ji gave a good answer! But was it! If he had said "I will take action to sort out,come see me and discuss the issues further where this occurred, I will endeavor to fix/sort out."
This to me would be appropriate in fixing and having his flock working towards going within and more on meditation by his followers. BUT this would be hard work to fix all around the world by one Guru! Plus surely by now all the Satsang Speakers,Seceretaries,directors, holders of high ranking postions within the RSSB organization around the global etc would have by now be enlightened and seeing the radiant form of their masters, because RSSB organization has been going on for over 100 years +,you would expect 100's if not 1000's of enlightened souls around the world in the RSSB organizations, if they have meditated 20 or 30 years. Also the Satsang speakers should be chosen by the master who knows they are traveling on inner planes, and lead by example! But it seems they have no inner experience in this science but all is text book theory knowledge. Plus you see more and more splinter Sant Mat Sound Current Philosophy organizations appearing to say they have the PLM GIHF!
So I agree with Brian, Osho on the start of the topic - how cult'ish meetings of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) devotees have become.

OSHO gone inside to sach khand yet? Hurry up.Go in that side...at the eye centre not the left ear the right thats it.See you at dera bro.


I would agree to some of Brians' explanations but I totally disagree with your vague comparisons and strange unreal expectations.

There would be 10s of 1000s of fortunate ones who are walking in the inner realms. 100 in over 100 years ?
By His grace, I personally would know many of them.

And it is our responsibility to keep the count and exclude ourselves for any assertion of our own achievement ?
Someone who is counting can't really be interested in achieving it himsef/herself.

I will share a small story:
It was a very hot day,
A rich man in a halted train (to a boy selling glass of water):
"How much does this glass cost?"
The boy gave him smile and walked on looking for someone else buying his glass.
The rich man shouted and called the boy near and asked: "Why didn't you tell the rate when I asked for it? Won't you want to sell it ?"
The boy replied:
"Sir, I've very few glasses. I want to sell it to the thirsty passengers. You can not be thirsty at all, if you'd have been, you shouldn't have asked the rate before drinking it."

About Satsang Speakers:

Did you notice how the sunlight reaches the internals of the room/house ?
What all Sun needs is the small openings/windows/doors to let His rays enter the house and spread the light everywhere.
These Satsang Speakers are those windows who are serving the Sun, the Master to let His light reach out to the millions who are not in direct contact with Him.
Who told you ? Where did you read this ? that Masters selects only those as Satsang Speakers who does have an inner experience ?
Satsang Speaker is a medium through whom He is reaching out to many more and giving his "Amazing Grace"
Every single one is His disciple: one who delivers the satsang, one who listens, one who offer water to the Sangat, one who cleans the toilets, one who writes the blog and one who reads too.
Every single person needs to fill his heart with sheer Love and Humility and with Love filled meditation and tears, things will start turning around sooner than later.

It's all about Love dear.
And if we all are surely missing that at this frame of time and space.

Whether those who have come out for any reasons, or those, while being there do not act and behave accordingly to the teachings, it is totally their fault, by not understanding what spirituality is all about, or by not applying the teachings in a practical manner.

I am in no way siding either sewadars, or those who are trouble makers, respect and consideration are the keys.

I do not care at all what others believe or not believe, as that will not take me anywhere. It is all about what I have understood in the right perspective.

As Guru Granth Sahib Ji says : Ekas bin sabh dandh hae. Without the One, everything else is transient, thus perishable.

And further on it also says: Jin Har japeeya, seh Har hoeeya. This means, he who meditates on Him, becomes one with Him.

And this is the main underline of any true guru or master, whether of the past, present or future.

Because, there is only one Truth, which has nothing to do with caste, creed, color, nationality or faiths.....

This is all what spirituality is about, to those who believe in that Primal Power, to merge themselves in it, through some practical and a proved method.

So it is evident, as long as one does nothing to merge oneself in that Source of goodness, popularly named as God, nothing good will ever take place in us, whether believers or not believers.

No matter how so much one does outer sewas of any type, it will not cleanse you, if one´s attitude is not right.

To become pure and good, one has to be mindless(though higher mind).

And to become mindless, one has to do "that something", to transcend the mind. And that thing, is nothing else other, then merging in Him, through meditation.

Guru Arjun Dev´s elder brother, was a rascal, and that also bearing in mind, that he had Guru Ram Das a true Master as his father, and a brother in the form of Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj.

So you see, it is not the physical proximity with the Truth, which favors one with goodness, but, it is the act of going after that Truth, through the right channels=meditation.

I am quite aware, in spite of what I have said, people will still object and find faults, but reading all the matter in the posts above, I could not refrain myself from giving my neutral opinion from my experiences for almost 5 decades on this path.

God bless yee all.

I am new to swinon. I want to know satsang ghar in and around swindon city where i can easily go on weekend to attend satsang.

Please let me know with complete address at [email protected] mail id.

I was a follower of Charan Singh Ji and the peace of his teachings led me through a difficult life with a sense of peace. I came away from the teachings and recently, now that I am retired, I searched for information about Sant Mat. What I read here shows me that the entire world in all of its facets is becoming the same - dictatorial, judgemental, greedy, selfish, inconsiderate, thoughtless, bigotted and racist, with an immature sense. Common sense is no longer. I must admit that I am looking forward eagerly to exit this reality.

@ Sara,

Pls dont only go by what is here. From your comment i could not make out if you are still disappointed by the path or want to get back, or enquire etc...

what ever it be. trust me this is not the best place to form your opinion from. here people come from all aspects and have logical and sometimes temperamental debates about santmat specially narrating their bad experiences.

if you are a true seeker (of anything - not just sant mat) being at a place where things are bashed is not the right place to find answers. You may not get a rounded perspective.

If anyone actually doubts the existence of God, try "www.NHNE-How NDE`s are changing the world" website. It stands for New Heaven New Earth - How Near Death Experiences are changing the world. On the site, there are hundreds of experiences related by the experiencers and relating death experiences through accidents, surgery etc., where there have been meetings with God, heavenly beings and the like. It really is worth visiting this site!

Confession: I have never been to the Dera before. After reading this post, and all the comments by those that HAVE been there, I really hope these negative reports and comments are only isolated incidents. If these reports are factual, and honest sharing of the reality of what visters can really expect when visting the Dera, then I might be enticed to change my plan of visiting the Dera for the very first time this Oct. 2017 as planned with my wife, who is not an Initiate. By the way, I was one of Charan Singh's last Initiates, initiated Feb. 4, 1990. My wife has never been interested in the Path, but loves to travel, so has agreed to visit the Dera with me during our Tour of Bhutan, Nepal, and No. India. But knowing my wife, as I have tor the last 55 years, if she gets "handled" there as the reports suggest as normal procedure, then I have no doubt what so ever, she will flee the premises, leaving me stranded there, and wait tor me to eventually show up at Deli to fly back to the States! If rumors are true, David Lane has been to the Dera with his wife and sons, in March 2017 , after he visited the Sikh Golden Temple in Amritsar. Brian Hines would do us all a Service, if he invited David Lane here on this important Thread, and interviewed him, asking him if he and his family were shaken down, and treated like all Americans are by the TSA in all of our Airports. I am now 75, and no longer am required to remove my shoes in Airports, but I don't mind doing so at the Sacred Sites in India, but if we can expect to be pushed, pulled, grabbed, carreled, prodded, and treated like animals at the Dera as Osho Robbins and the other visitors with experience here have reported, than David Lane would be the true witness to share his recent experience at the Dera, and either recommend visiting, or warn those of us who have never visited to stay away, unless we agree to be treated in reality, as this thread reports. I don't mind following rules, giving up my phone and electronics, as my wife and I have visited 60 different countries since Aug. 2012, so we are not naive to travel, but this thread does not conduce any invitations or friendly warm feelings to voluntarily visit a place as horrible as this tread describes. Brian Hines, please invite Dr. Lane to rebutt, Osho's report, or agree that this thread is a clear warning to Newbies like me to avoid. Thanks.

hey Jim,

That's great to know you are visiting the Dera this year.
I am very sure it's going to be a wonderful & exciting trip for you.
October is a nice time to visit northern India, it will be a pleasant weather.

I live in Delhi, so in case if you need any assistance, please let me know and I will be more than happy to help... you need you can reach me at oneinitiated at gmail.


Radha Soami Ji.

I think that David Lane and his family would have received special treatment at the Dera. There is a definite hierarchy there. I remember how Sam Busa had very exclusive treatment because he was a favourite of Charan's. Although westerners are treated much better than the poor lower caste Indians we unfortunately seem to take that privilege for granted. I'm glad I visited only once when I was still under the spell of being special and even though it was a good trip I would never go back there again. So glad I've woken up to this cult.

Hi Jim
If you have properly booked an apartment ( still free ) at the dera you and your wife will be fine

Please ask her to google some of my comments here and she will feel there are positive thoughts about the dera and the Masters
I'm delighted that during >4 years now Brian withheld only 4 of my comments.

Even without the Master the Dera still is the most peaceful place on earth and your wife will feel that immediately
- so I heard from many friends -I'm 6% older than you Sir
and I adore that nothing changed since Buddha, since Jesus, including the often hypocritical aggressions
Yes , that would be a good idea about Lane
If he can he could : make good really a lot, a lot.

So nice that invitation from Delhi - that s what Satsangis do - not what sour williams says

I m so happy for you Jim after 27 years

Take care


Jim -- you and your wife will be fine. I have been going to Dera for many years and have yet to witness anybody being mistreated. (I can't speak for the non-Western visitors though since the Western Guesthouse area is a separate area.) On the other hand, the Dera management has endured a lot from some of its Western visitors over the decades. I have a few stories-- people jumping off buildings, running nude through the compound, punching an Indian sevadar in the nose for no apparent reason I could see.....anyhow.....unfortunately more than a few Western visitors show up with existing conditions, such as bein' a few bricks short of a full load. Then there are those who arrive drug addicted, or alcohol addicted and go through physical withdrawal and end up at the Beas Hospital. Nice huh? Not to mention more minor problems like just being crude, and rude and childish. I am always happy to find that Hostel 6 is still open to Western guests; always kinda wondering if/when the guru will decide we are just way too much trouble.
I saw D. Lane there. He looked happy. It would be nice to hear about his experience.

Greetings Sant Mat devotees! I looked at Sant Mat for a good while and even attended some events by Ishwar Puri. Then I found Jurgen Ziewes' book "The Multidimensional Man". Here is his technique for real experience in the inner worlds. 1. Sleep for a good 6 hours. 2. Wake up meditate a bit. 3 Go back to sleep. 4. Become Lucid in your dream(look at your hands,the ground) 5. Choose your destination. The easy way my friends! No gurus,Dera,donations are needed! Jurgen also has amazing Youtube videos that represent some of his journeys.

You Jim for rssb donation is not needed

WasinTheCrowd,..,,are you Sure you Saw Dr. David Lane at the Dera? Or, was it his Reincarnation still critqing his Astrologer?

Thanks for the other comments, 777, one initiated, and Jen. Jen, if you travel to America to see Rev. Billy Graham, you will get a better accommodation because of your long journey than his local Devotees living near by that can visit him any time.

Hi Brian

I enjoy your blogs - factual and to the point

I was reading of a cover up in Haynes Park do you know anything about this

see link below



Hi Jim, thanks for your mention of Jurgen Ziewe. I have downloaded his book "The Multidimensional Man" onto my Mini iPad and I have also watched quite a few of his youtubes.

I recently had a couple of experiences, first there was a woman's voice which seemed to come from my ceiling lol, and all she said was a quite friendly "hello". I was quite annoyed for some strange reason, probably because I don't like intrusion. I thought I better get my act together and be more friendly and a few days later, early morning, when we are in that state just before waking up, I saw a fellow who just seemed to be passing through and he said in a breezy kind of friendly way "good morning Sydney". I mumbled "morning" and then woke up thinking, but I'm not living in Sydney anymore!

I find it fascinating and good fun and am trying out Jurgen's techniques. He does say that the next dimension from this physical universe is just as real as the one we are experiencing. I'm over the whole satsang and worshiping the guru type existence. Time (for me) now to adventure into the unknown! Cheers, Jen

Tomorrow, I will be having the honour of driving my mum to this event in Haynes Park. I am not into these things and will be bringing a book with me to read. I don't care what others are into, to each their own. I have paid for a ticket.

Would it be considered a crime if were to just sit in the park and read a book? Maybe even put in some ear plugs and listen to some music. I haven't been to one of these since I was a kid. Really dreading this.

Hi Amar,

What is there to dread?

If you haven't been since childhood - it might be an interesting experience.

You can listen or just hang around outside the tent.

Read a book, listen to music, just go for a walk.

Nobody is going to stop you. You are free to do as you please.

Cheers, I wasn't too sure with some of the things I read about walking here and there or being allowed to bring phones with you or what not. If you can still roam around outside the tent that is okay. I felt that if I maybe required to listen to the speeches that are to be given. Thank you the swift response and clearing that up. Much appreciated.

I was at the Haynes Satsang over the weekend.

The one thing that is becoming increasingly clear is that GSD has taken a whole new stance.

Let me explain.

He makes it totally clear that our job is not to convert anyone. Allow everyone to make their own choices.

Don't try to convince anyone about this path.

It is for you - if you choose it. If it's not for you, that is also fine.

It's a very laid back and refreshing attitude.

He is telling the religious fanatics to drop the fanaticism.

He also said "I am not going to tell you everything is going to be okay"

"I am not here to give you false consolation, like other gurus might"

He had a good laugh and a joke and everyone had a good time.

Nothing too serious.

A lot of people were saying "I am so grateful to you. Thank you" etc

His reply was simple. "Just saying the words means nothing. Your actions are more important - say it through your meditation"

He focuses a lot on meditation - and says it is essential to meditate.

He does not focus on results and says it is not about the results.

"Don't calculate" he says. "You just do your duty and leave the rest to Him"

He definitely does not say that meditation is not needed.

He says meditation is essential. Other things like seva are optional - but not meditation.

Meditation is the one essential.

"Don't focus on results" is the next essential, and

He doesn't make it totally clear that meditation is just to tire the mind out.

In fact the disciples are trying to get somewhere and He doesn't say anything against that.

He also does not emphasise that "there is not Sach Khand"

This topic is only raised is someone asks specifically about it.

So, although the teachings have changed - it is not blatantly noticeable if you just listen to a typical satsang.

I am sure if someone asked Him directly if the teachings have changed - the answer would be "no"

So I can understand the people who say I am wrong - because it certainly appears that there is no change.

Only occasionally he makes the remarks about

"No master will come at death because there is only ONE"

"I am here to confuse you"

"There are no regions"

These remarks are definitely made - but sparingly.

Hence the majority of the listeners will not agree that the teachings have changed because no great emphasis is placed on these.

Instead they are like the side dish.

The main course is still the same:
Meditaiton, satsang, seva, good moral character, be a good person.

He says not to focus on the results.

However, everyone is focussed on the results because the results are the REASON they are doing the meditation.

It's a bit like saying "Go to work" (like "do the meditation")

but don't focus on whether you get paid or not.

But - getting paid is the REASON you go to work.

Unless of course you change the reason - like a charity worker.

So when a disciple does not get the result - he complains.

Why? because the REASON for doing the meditation is to see light and to go to inner regions.

If you take that away - the majority will stop the meditation.

Above all Point to remember is there are rule books for all association, (Example You should be in class when there is lecture going on in school classroom if you chose to sit outside in garden fine and good luck for future). Moreover teaching of all religions accound to there scriptures (SCRIPTURES) is to surrender to HIS wish, So Start from surrending to wish of sewadar's then GURU and THEN TO GOD...... this is learning process. With time many thing changes we as very obedient peoples had forced authorities to bring these rules book... hope this will help!

Hi Osho!

Even in Spiritual Gems...letters of Sawan Singh, he writes that the religious aspects of any religious organization, including Sant Mat, are to be avoided. We are there for the spirituality and our meditation is our part in helping build that atmosphere.

Sawan Singh famously said "If you find a better path please let me know, and I'll follow it."

Charan Singh also said in 1988 that Satsang, Seva, these are for the mind, to help condition the mind to be receptive to meditation. Everything is to encourage and support our efforts in meditation.

And both these great Mystics stated repeatedly we are never to proseletize.

Those marked are already marked.
And we are all working through our own issues here.

Dear Osho,....Thanks for your Haynes Park report! Appreciated it. Eye witnesses with ears to actually hear what he has to say is hard to come by for Americans like me living in tne Mountains. GSD was in the U.S., recently, but I missed him, in spite of being on the Telephone Alert list.

I " presume", as an RSSB I Initiate, you must have by now listened to dozens of Ishwar Puri's Youtube Satsangs around the world, as he travels?

How would you rate the content of Ishwar's Satsangs as compared to what GSD shares with Seekers? What version of Sant Mst woyld you assighn to zishar's Sant Mat? 1, 2, 3 or,.....is it Sant Mat at all?

Also, all of Ishwar's Public Work shops are Live Streamed to the public Internet, as the recent 3 day event was in his New Jersey Work shop. Those talks are later archived to his Youtube list, which is growing rapidly, as he travels the U.S., Europe, India, etc.

Of course, being a Harvard Grad. Ph.D., as well as one of the last remaining Initiates of Sawan Singh, who grew up in the Dera, with his Father authoring some RSSB books, he packs a lot of Thunder and Wallup, at his Work shops, with his stories and Esoteric Theosophy type version of Sant Mat.

If you have not yet lestened to his New Jersey Work Shop talks, take a listen. There are 5 parts.

His Core Desciples are the most militant Sant Matters I have encountered, since I have been on the Path. They act like GSD's Security Guards on their Internet sites, and get pretty hostile, when the party line is not sung with the Choir.

If visiters ask any questions about Ishwar's RSSB history or past, or what he was doing before 1995 before he started inititiating seekers while Channeling Sawan Singh, the questions quickly get deleted and the visiters deleted along with the comments, as I was a few days ago, along with another Charan Singh Initiate who were asking a few innocent questions.

I eondeer how long you could ladt on that site, with your posts? Ishwar is a Oneness Guru, so
You might be accepted there as a Brother Celebrity.



Hi Jim,

I haven't listened to his satsangs before.

However, after your posting I have just listened to a few minutes of this one


initial impression is - he tells the same stories as all sant mat gurus.

I don't know his teachings - but he seems to be just like any other guru.

not particularly impressed

just saw this one


he asks the followers what they saw - like kirpal's group did.

I am guessing he gets disillusioned RSSB followers who want an experience.

I am not sure I would say he is a ONENESS guru because if he was, why focus on experiences which are in the realm of duality

Osho, you need to listen to more than a few minutes to come up to speed, as well as his history. He is taking the U.S. By Storm!

He claims Sawan Singh told him the the Spiritual shift is going from the East to the West.

Here is what I posted in one of his groups after listening to Oart one of his New Jersey Work ashop that got be kicked out of the group and blocked from further posting

Do you think Babaji would agree to this Theology, and is that what he is presently saying, to Westerners?

"Jim Sutherland In Ishwar's recent talk in New Jersey Work Shop, he said that we are all in Sach Khand, right now, because "we" , never left there. "We", are not even " we", because we are actually ONE, GOD. We are only imagining " we" are individual drops of the ONE and only OCEAN. He said that God only moved HIS Awareness from SACH KHAND to Causal Mind, ( millions of earth life time/ space lives) , to Astral Bodies ( 1,000-3,000 earth years time/ Space lives that reincarnate several times to physical bodies, that only live 100 years average as imagined individualized drops of the ONE Ocean , but each drop is reallty GOD in Sach Khand, WHO is Totality of Awareness. To those who were there, did I paraphrase it wrong? If not, it appears that Sheila Shadra in her song has it right in her Lyric,...." The Ocean refuses no river." Are all Iswar Puri Initiates in agreement with this Theology of us all being individualized drops of Totality of Consciousness only imagining we are in physical bodies listening to Ishwar, when in reality, He is in Sach Khand listening to himself because he is God, and so are we. Does every body agree with this Theology? I hope I am not the only one feeling like I am not God, and hoping that if I am in Sach Khand right now, then I must have bought the wrong ticket and boarded the wrong train."

Hi Jim

Since the youtube piece where he said that thoughts activate karma I don t follow him anymore
It is NOT true and generates un-necessary feelings of guit
That conviction would kill us all.

Only acts produce karma ( Charan )

For the rest I
this goes in the Advaita superficiality where the main component LOVE
is always neglected
Yes all will flow in the ocean but with LOVE it s a big time pleasure
But if you Love in super crush you fall in the ocean immediately
( seconds vs BigBang_periods )

How to LOVE something (God) we don't know , . . . yet Brian loved Charan
That was somebody who really was already in the 7th heaven
which its radiation et ca se voyait ( everybody felt it )

So find somebody to love as most songs advice
the simplier way is LOVE


Stop wasting time listening to Iswar Puri. RSSB is where it's at, accept no offbeat substitutes! Any extra time you spend in meditation is better than following lesser and false paths of spirituality.

Hi Joe!
That's not our choice.
Iswar has some beautiful talks entirely correct on the path. His warm and welcoming nature, and his investigative and practical approach make his Seva extremely important for those destined to follow him.

Spencer, I agree fully! He might have some difference in presentation, and belief, but in my opinion, at least for English speaking Westeners that have only heard about Sant Mat, and read a book or two, and haven't got enough information to even know if they are interested in this Path, than Ishwar Puri is the equivalent of a Military Recruiter, for Sant Mat. I have never heard him say any thing negative about any other Guru, nor even mention any by name that has other followers. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines all have Recruiters. Its up to the individual seeker which Branch to choose. Once chosen, if the choice is wrong, than they may reenlist in a different Branch, yet stay in the Miltary. Same holds true for Sant Mat, IMO. Sant Mat doesn't have nearly as many Denominations as Christians have, and each Denomination is still considered Brothers & Sisters in Christ, so why split hairs in Sant Mat? There are no Taliban in Sant Mat, to my knowledge!

Hi Jim!
100% agree.

The notion that we are in sach Khand already.

Is duality.


There is no "we"
There is no Sach Khand

Oneness means no "me" remains.

There are no waves.

Waves only appear to be real.

There is only the ocean.

It is not that the waves are already with the ocean.

There are no individual waves.

There are no individual souls.

Only the appearance

Which is called Maya

That which appears to exist

But does not exist.

If Ishwar Puri says we are already ONE and not individual souls then

It's just a matter of REALISING not going anywhere

That was clearly not sawan Singh's teaching.

So is Ishwar Puri giving out his own or sawan Singh's teachings

Osho, you will need to listen to a few dozen Ishwar Puri Youtube Videos to sort it out for yourself. He was initiated at 9 years old, but rebelled. He said he tried all other Yoga practices because Sawan told him to keep looking for any thing better than Sant Mat. If he found any, let Sawan know, and he would also try it. So Ishwar said he tried them ALL. So, in order to have tried them all, he must have included Tantra. Rumors are, .........well, follow them! But he must have not convinced Sawan to practice Tantra, because Sawan died of Prostate Cancer, we are told. Plus, Sawan preached Celebacy, which is an invitation to Prostate Cancer. Kirpal Singh was obedient to Sawan's Celebacy instructions, and Kirpal skso died of Prostate Cancer. So "perhaps" Ishwar has lived to now be over 90 and still is going strong, because he has NOT practiced Celebacy? Yet, he says in most of his talks that very thing he shares is what Sawan taught him, and he shares nothing of his own. So either Sawan gave him private lessons that are nor recorded in Publications, or,....Ishwar is Channeling a disincarnate mischivous spirit posing as Sawan Singh, that Ishwar is being possessed by, and fooled by. Listen to some more of his videos, and report back to tell us to tell us what you think. In my opinion, Sawan Singh was a Teacher of Non-Duality.

How can I forget it was in Haynes park. I was just there August 2016. I didn't experience the maniacal control often exhibited by the slavish sevadars this time.

But I have observed it at other times when the master is in the states. I did likewise I just said no I won't move or whatever. At satsangs in Dallas from where I just moved as it was the last city I was alive in my last life. I spent 20+ years in Texas reaping whatever karma called me there. I have been to the Houston sangat center and wanted to be more involved but I was invisible and not in the inner circle nor trying to be. I'm an observer period.

I'm back in Chicago because want mat did transform my life. I knew after leaving UK my life would change and I sold my house and plan to live in Chicago to fulfill old karma leftover here.

Spiritual progress is not at all what we think it is. In fact we don't know what it is at all.
One thing I've noticed is how much and how many expressions used by the masters of RS and that it seemed to originate from other spiritual groups! I just uncovered the reason for 3.5 hours of meditation for reasons different than those given by Sant mat. Clever gurus those guys. They have repackaged the hell out of RS!

It's not all bad. It has meaning even though I wrote that it didn't. In fact it's true meaning was only revealed to me after I stopped meditating and jettisoned the ideas of RS teachings.

So keep an open mind it's not over yet.


Hi there,

A very similar situation happened today at the Bush Hill satsung. I happened to go into the hall where satsung takes place, I am currently 13 years old and quiet mature for my age. Today I wanted to make a decision on whether to seek the path or not. I found a seat, 4 rows from the front. My sister would gradually whisper in my ear regarding things that transpire in satsung because she's a advent go-er, and I would reply back. We were approached by a very arrogant rude lady, who thought she had possessed a lot of authority. She came up to us questioning my age. My father politely replied. She then went on to say that I should not make any movements or sounds or else I would be removed and be sent to the " creche" . There were plenty of people speaking much louder than I was and they weren't told anything. I was merely whispering. I feel personally victimized because of my age.

The sevadars at satsung think they have a lot of authority and power to control and reprimand people who utilize the facility. Something needs to be done!

Firstly, how would you propose a basic level of order is maintained when so many individuals attend Satsang? If you have a better solution, instead of complaining about what you don't like, be a bit proactive and suggest how YOU think it SHOULD be done. But be sure that what you suggest would ensure the same level of organisation that occurs wherever there are RSSB Satsangs.

Secondly, no one sevadar is above another. Sevadars are human beings like you and I, and they too have their shortcomings. If a sevadar behaves in a manner that offends you, first think about why it offends you - critically - and then remember that if the incident truly warrants your harsh criticism, that that sevadars bad attitude is actually his proble. You reflect on your attitude and make sure you're not behaving in an objectionable manner. Yes, there are egos in abundance throughout the Sangat, and some individuals believe that there is a pecking order. There is no pecking order, it is a misconception of those individuals.

Lastly, what you send out, you get back. Treat others the way you would wish to be treated. If you do that, you get to enjoy life and can live in at least some modicum of peace in this mad world.

If it's a problem for you to abide by rules, then it is you who has the ego problem. If you are able to lower your idea of self importance and work with others instead of against them, I promise you that your experiences will be completely different.

Go well you all.

Taylan, the whole premise of Sant Mat is to make people into humble little sheep. I've experienced being pushed and shoved by Sevadars who are using bullying tactics and displaying huge egos. Just the opposite to being the humble devoted satsangis they are supposed to be.

Jo, I'm amazed at you lecturing a young 13 year old about ego. Your whole comment just screams EGO and its quite funny. You sound very agitated and imo maybe you should stop trying to be the perfect human being (it just doesn't work).

Let the satsangi, holier than thou thing go and just be a normal, natural, maladjusted human being. Join the masses. Its fun. (I am joking... kinda)

Sorry Jo, just realised you weren't talking to young Taylan.

What would we do without Brian's blog to comment on and release out irritations!

Just checked out some of the comments. Like this ironic post by "cc":

"Oh, I know! Those sevadars are so bossy and pushy! Sometimes I wonder why I belong to this idiotic cult! Jeez! Lighten up, guys! Can't a humble devotee get some respect?!"

I miss some of these old-timers’ comments. You could always count on cc / x, for instance, to chime in with his(?) distinctive take -- pithy, witty, at times brutal, at other times wise -- on whatever topic happened to be discussed here.

That other old-timer as well, tAo. He was well before my time, but still, that didn’t stop me from reading all of the earlier threads here and enjoying his rather brutal exposure of others’ blind spots. Too bad he turned out to have this huge blind spot himself, and too bad Brian’s cool take-down of his particular blind spot seems to have driven him off for good from here. I used to enjoy reading his comments.

For instance -- and I mean no offence to either of them when I say this, I mean this is the best possible way, I genuinely admire both of them -- I'm sure I’d enjoying seeing him, tAo I mean, pit his arguments and his wits against our Spencer. One-sided bouts aren’t anywhere near as interesting as closely-fought ones, and most of tAo’s earlier efforts here would tend to be rather one-sided : these two would, I think, be fairly well-matched, and seeing them spar could actually be very instructive (and fun as well I guess) to those of us who’re interested in discussions on these topics.


Just re-read this whole thread, after having my attention drawn to it by the recent comments. (I’d read it earlier, of course, but I enjoyed going through it again.) Got to admire Osho Robbins’s courage in squarely and openly facing up to what appears wrong to him. His acuity and clear reasoning are admirable, of course, but what I admire most about him is how he doesn’t mind going up openly against public opinion. Many of us take the far easier route of anonymous commenting. Not that I’m in the least apologetic about that, not for a minute, but I greatly admire those who have the guts to stand up to peer pressure uncompromisingly and openly. I suppose what I’m saying applies, first and foremost, to Brian himself, given his how close he was (is?) to so many in the RSSB organization.


Just got to musing aloud there about the old threads I’ve read here, and the old-time commenters whose comments I’ve enjoyed going through. Sorry if that calling-out-by-name was at all unwelcome to any of the people concerned! No offense meant.

AR tAo was caught many times lying and twisting here on the web and he also has the same tactics for what his doing at that time,, that is the best and all others are dogmatic delluded and so on. Like he was vegan and thus attacking others... when stopped being vegan attacking veggies and so on..at last he was promoting hare krishna...guess what..yeah because he was caught in it.
Oh yes and Osho R.look at you tube video how he is acting like he is in front of full room of people but he is not. Ok Osho at least is not attacker.
Also with Mike Williams how many times he was caught on rss forum lying twisting and manipulating attacking and at the end deleting mssgs. tAo also was deleting mssgs and after that claimed he didnt say particular thing after deleting it.
Manipulation after manipulation...

Scrolling down and reading most of these comments. All of you individuals are seekers. All of us are seekers? If we're all here commenting through this blog is because we're all curious? We're all seeking answers for some thing atleast? First of all, let's have a little respect for this religion and path as we should for every religion and path.

,i have attended Haynes park for years going with my family and have also been to dera beas. We talk about how pushy the sevadars are? And how there is a "system" well yes there is a system. Of course there is? Because we need a system? Do you realise how many people attend sat sung at Haynes park or beas. There is a system there to keep you all safe so you aren't falling over or thousands of people walking into you. It's to keep everyone flowing so people don't barge and push you on there own accord. You go to any event where it is busy there will be a system to follow it's not because of ego it's simply to keep you guys safe at Satsung so you're not obstructing anyone or anyone that is obstructing you. Due to the high numbers of people attending Satsungs at beas or Haynes you do need a system to control all the people otherwise it would be a nightmare.

About the sevadar asking for the women's bag to put into the deposit. Think about it what would he get from taking your bag? Well if he asked to take mine feel free? He wants to keep it safe incase you lose it or it goes missing? I understand some sevadars do have a dry tone of voice and may seem like they are there to piss you off I remember someone saying to baba ji about how some sevadars are quite rude and baba ji took this into consideration immediately and said they will speak to the sevadars at the end of Satsung about this.

We're all human sevadars are human they stand in the Cold rain making sure everyone gets to the tents safely and some stand in the cooking heat in dera beas directing everyone. Sevadars have good days and bad days? They get tiered too as we do? We have good days and bad days at work and in general life. And that's absolutely okay let's be more civil towards one another. If you don't like Haynes park or any satsung, that is okay don't attend if it's not for you. Everyone is more than welcome.

Finally meditation, you can't just be initated and not do your meditation? Thays like going to school and not sitting the exam. If you're loyal to meditation, you will know the answer to this yourself and you will know what the result will be. If you're curious and obviously you'll question it if you're a seeker do more research positively? If you are initated and do not do your simiran then dont ask what the result us? You have the rexult? Study it give it time and you'll know for yourself.

Again show respect to every religion please. And maybe get up from behind the computer or phone if you have so many questions research them. The topic of religion and science will never have an answer thay will satisfy everyone on this earth. Take care everyone.

Kind regards Tina

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