Here's two email messages that I got from a woman who practices Kriya Yoga and has had some pretty amazing yogic experiences. Yet she considers that the experiences are entirely based on the body/brain.
The book referred to in the first message is Yogananda's "Autobiography of a Yogi." Way back when (early 70's probably) I read the book and marveled at the far-out descriptions of mystical goings-on.
Message #1:
Hi Brian,
Yes, unfortunately, a lot of people believed what Yogananda experienced was true. This is what helped build the organization he founded in California... The Self Realization Fellowship which later was incorporated as a church for tax purposes. I read part of the book when I was in my 20"s; now I'm 52 (an old gal). Back then I believed what was written.
About a year and a half ago I picked up the book and starting reading some of it and had to close the book realizing how it resembled a fantasy story (Lord of The Rings came to mind for some reason). Oh yes, I believe he did experience visions as this is what the practice of kriya yoga meditation will do. However, I think his religious fanaticism and devotion to a being called God, which does not exist, set the stage for these far out experiences.
My experiences with kriya yoga had me seeing golden light, wheels of light in red, yellow, orange, blue and violet (Oh yeah, gotta love this one, my guru says these are the chakras coming into view, keep placing OM at each chakra with the upward breath as we need to cleanse the chakras).
Then later on in the practice I kept seeing a full white moon, after that came the bursting forth of many suns while practicing yoni mudra. Which after a while my guru told me it was showing me how creation forms, a bursting forth of energy and light.
Anyway, with this practice I have found no god entity, no existence of heaven or hell and certainly no soul or spirit residing in the human body. Only matter, energy, and consciousness in other words, body, and brain.
Paramahansa Yogananda proclaimed to have come to the West to spread the teachings of an ancient yogic science called Kriya Yoga. In Chapter 26 of his book "Autobiography Of A Yogi" entitled "The Science Of Kriya Yoga" 3rd paragraph it is written:
Kriya Yoga is a simple psychophysiological method whereby, the blood is decarbonated and recharged with oxygen. Atoms of this extra oxygen are transmitted into life current to rejuvenate the brain and spinal centers. By stopping the accumulation of venous blood the yogi is able to lessen or prevent the decay of tissues. The advanced yogi transmutes his cells into energy. He then goes on to state Elijah, Jesus, Kabir, and other prophets used kriya or some similar method to cause their bodies to materialize and dematerialize at will.
Sound far fetched? You bet!
I am initiated into kriya yoga and have been practicing this tantric meditation technique for a while now. With this method one is instructed on where and how to locate the 7 chakras which in reality are the lumbar points in the spine. The 7th chakra is not part of the spine as it is the crown/ top of the head. The kriyaban is instructed in various mudras and in pranayama. Many of which come from the Hatha Yoga Pradipika. Such as the correct asana for practicing kriya meditation, kechari, the mahamudra, shambhavi mudra.
The practice of kriya yoga pranayam, whereby one draws the breath upwards mentally touching each of the chakras (spinal centers) then resting in the kumbhaka state produced visions of wheels of light in red, yellow, orange, blue, and violet. These I was told by my guru are the chakras coming into view. Keep placing OM at each chakra as we need to cleanse the karmic seeds from our chakra database. (Okaaay,)
Then suddenly, one day my entire head was flooded with a golden light and the internal sounds of Omkar resounded within. Such peace, joy and bliss. I was sure I had found the god within! Turns out it was all brought about by the practice of pranayama. Breath and mind are linked!
Next came all the sensations of energy (prana) moving up and down the spine. The body would gently sway like the motion of a pendulum on a clock. The spine felt like it was tingling and vibrating. I saw a pure white orb like the full moon on several occasions. Wow! such a great spiritual vision, so I thought. Then came the bursting forth of many suns while practicing yoni mudra.
According to my guru, this mudra was showing me creation, the bursting forth of energy and light even though this mudra is manipulated by the one practicing it. One takes a deep inhalation, retains it, thumbs close the ears, index fingers cover closed eyelids, middle fingers close the nostrils while the ring fingers and pinkies are placed at the corners of the mouth.
To sum up everything, all the visions are just a product of practicing pranayama (breathing technique). The energy flows of prana are also produced by practicing pranayama. Breath and mind are definitely linked. Nothing mystical.
The sense that all is one or everything is one also arises from doing this practice. However, the feeling of being one with everything is impermanent.
So, in other words, things are what they are - not what they're said to be.
Posted by: cc | May 14, 2013 at 10:04 AM
I am grateful to J Krishnamurti (who I was reading in my own 20s) for making it absolutely clear this kind of thing is just a parlor game.
But then I didn't have nearly as much fun as these guys probably did!
Posted by: Tom | May 14, 2013 at 01:57 PM
Hi All,
This is my first comment to this very interesting blog/site.
Thanks for this inclusion...it would, indeed, seem that mind and breath are linked/intertwined.
Going for a long enough walk or a run outside can induce a (blissful) state - a feeling of at oneness, too. Even better, being outside amongst trees, hills and so on lets one 'connect' with Nature's beauty...
A runner's or a walker's 'high'
might be similar to the effects to the brain as/of the yogic experience/exercises you have described (above)
Posted by: Aristok | May 14, 2013 at 07:08 PM
"I am grateful to J Krishnamurti (who I was reading in my own 20s) for making it absolutely clear this kind of thing is just a parlor game."
He made it clear by playing the game without self-awareness, humor, or humility. He believed his own bullshit even more fervently than his followers did.
Posted by: cc | May 14, 2013 at 07:42 PM
Hi Tom,
You are right. Krishnamuti helped thousands
of people exit horrible cults.
This info on Yogananda comes from page one, bottom notes of my book. There is also link
on index page to Yogananda, Stripping the Gurus. I have taken 4 of the 7 initiations
into Yogananda's group. They are much advanced from Radhasoami's, whom are clueless about surat shabda yoga.
Yogananda Christmas message, 1933: Quote:
------------------------------------------------
Hitler is to be admired for leaving the League of Nations because peace can never be attained by the victor and vanquished attitude, but on a basis of equality and brotherhood. Instead of preventing Hitler from having equal armament with other nations, the other nations should reduce the armaments to the level of Germany, then the millions of dollars that are thrown away on idle battleships could be used for national or international prosperity. America, France, and Great Britain should reduce their armaments first, and thereby destroy the desire of Japan, Russia, and Germany to become equally armed.
An insulted, snubbed Germany, if it gets away from the uplifting guidance of Hitler, may join Russia and make her a more powerful enemy of France and so on.
The Allies must reduce their own armaments first, and then they will find out that the example speaks louder than words.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Newspaper Articles on Yogananda
------------------------------------------
Los Angeles Times, Wednesday, October 25, 1939:
SWAMI SOUGHT IN DAMAGE SUIT
Determined that he shall not become a vanishing Hindu, process servers were conducting a far-flung search yesterday for Swami Yogananda, Indian cultist accused in a sensational $500,000 damage suit, of amazing goings on with feminine followers.
Aiding in the search was the plaintiff, Nirad Ranjan Chowdbury, also known as Sir Nerode, former associate of Yogananda, who maintains a palatial abode on Mount Washington and also boasts a high class hideaway at Encinitas.
Chowdbury's charges took on a spice not generally associated with the spiritual repose of Yogism as the swami was sought by minions of the plaintiffs attorneys, Harold E. Krowech and Theodorn E. Bowen.
PREACHES HE IS GOD
After pointing out that Yogananda teaches that he is God, or Paramahansa, Chowdbury, Calcutta-born, Harvard educated student of East Indian religious philosophy, alleged that the swami has been for the past year trying to break up the marriage between the plaintiff and his wife, and that Yogananda prevented the plaintiff's wife from having proper care during the pregnancy of her child.
Moreover, Chowdbury alleges that the swami teaches that: The members of the congregation must not get married because their first love must be to God through Swami Yogananda and that if they should be married that their first loyalties are to Swami Yogananda and not to their spouse.
IRREGULAR PRACTICES
Picturing highly irregular practices in the cult quarters on Mount Washington, the plaintiff declared that the swami has young girls in the immediate vicinity of his room going in and out all hours of the night.
The younger girls are kept segregated from older women, Chowdbury charges, adding:
Young girls have free access to the rooms of said Swami Yognanda and that said Swami Yogananda forbids said young girls who attend him from going out with other men and forbids them to go out at all except with him.
At his Encinitas palace, Chowdbury charges, Yogananda maintains caves and rooms for meditation that are not in keeping with the standard of religious meditation...and that the places of mediation are too secretive and ornate of construction to be used for the purpose of spiritual mediation, all of which is contrary to spiritual practices, contrary to Hindu philosophy and contrary to the purposes and objectives of the partnership.
ROMANTIC TO MERCENARY
Changing from the romantic to the mercenary tack, Chowdbury declared that the swami has used contributions from his cultists to foster his ambitious and private ends. The plaintiff accused the swami of using the teachings of Yogoda and Hindu Philosophy for the sole purpose of creating a personalized interpretation of defendant Swami Yogananda as a divinity...so as to force upon the members of the congregation and others the interpretations that God talks only through Swami Yogananda.
Chowdbury said yesterday that while a graduate student at Harvard he met Yogananda, who then was lecturing in the East, became interested in the swami's teachings, and was made a partner with the swami in the cult only to be frozen out last January, after the long-haired cult leader had transferred his interests from the East to Los Angeles, where he is said to have attracted as followers scores of Los Angeles women and girls.
PURELY COMMERCIAL
After the freeze out, Chowdbury said he became convinced that Swami Yogananda was engaged at all times in a purely commercial venture for the purpose of his own personal gain, and that his activities had no connection with the true Hindu Self-realization philosophy.
At the cult headquarters, a crisp young woman attache reported that the swami is due back today. He lectured in San Diego Monday night, she said.
------------
entheogenesis Lieutenant Commander Posts: 7 (2/9/04 10:14 pm) Reply Re: Newspaper Articles on Yogananda --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Newspaper clipping from another Los Angeles newspaper.]
Wednesday, October 25th, 1939
Headline: SWAMI CALLS ACCUSER 'CHISELER'
Even the benign and almost imperturbable calm of a swami has its limits. Last night as Swami Yogananda returned here to find himself facing a $500,000 damage suit filed by Rihad Ranjan Chowdhury [Sri Nerode], who claims a partnership in this Mount Washington cult of Self Realization headed by the swami, that limit was reached.
The dirty chiseler, the swami exploded. The Hindu mystic who returned here from a lecture engagement in San Diego where he had expounded the benefits of self denial and self control, regained some of his composure and went on.
The charges made against me are scurrilous and without foundation, the result of an underhand attempt to discredit me in the eyes of my followers, he said.
Chowdhury had been driven out of the flock because he was insincere and because he violated our rules. He married a white woman, which is directly forbidden in our laws.
In his suit however, Chowdhury makes it clear he wants to dissolve the partnership because, he said, the swami isn't exactly practicing what he preaches.
He alleged that in a luxurious suite on the third floor of the Temple of Self Realization, the swami keeps himself surrounded by a bevy of likable young ladies who have free access to his boudoir at all times---but aren't allowed to go out with other men at all.
Furthermore, while his flock exists dutifully on substandard diets in line with the self denial theory---the swami dines on the most luxurious foods, he charged.
Chowdhury said sadly that he wants no more partnership with Yogananda, and wants the $500,000 as compensation for the work he has put into the movement.
A. Brigham Rose, attorney for the swami, said he would go into court today and ask to have the sensational charges stricken from the complaint.
http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/yogananda.asp
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 14, 2013 at 08:47 PM
He made it clear by playing the game without self-awareness, humor, or humility. He believed his own bullshit even more fervently than his followers did.
Yeah, I know what you mean. But if he couldn't escape himself, he gave his followers plenty of chances to. He kept on urging them to question everything - it's rare for a guru to be so forceful about that.
Posted by: Tom | May 15, 2013 at 07:02 AM
Krishnamurti was against believing anything.
His whole method was to look at ones
preconceived notions with a fresh mind.
To deal with facts head on.
Krishnamuti debunked everything.
Gurus and their followers hate him.
He was bad for their BUSINESS and still
is.
Krishnamuti has cost the gurus billions
upon billions of dollars in lost revenue.
We owe him a great debt. Humanity owes
him a great debt.
We were sheeple.
Now we are free.
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 15, 2013 at 08:45 AM
It may be rare but it's smart because he knew those attracted to his teaching were more inclined to believe and follow than to question and find their own way.
Posted by: cc | May 15, 2013 at 09:00 AM
It may be rare but it's smart because he knew those attracted to his teaching were more inclined to believe and follow than to question and find their own way.
Are you certain of that? It sounds to me more like a supposition, minus the caveat.
Plenty of intelligent and independent-minded folk had fruitful talks with him: Alan Watts, Aldous Huxley, David Bohm, Indira Gandhi... off the top of my head.
Not that I want to defend him particularly. I just don't like cheap ad hominems.
Posted by: Tom | May 15, 2013 at 11:08 AM
Thanks to the "woman" who sent in the resume of her experiences .....very interesting
Posted by: Bruce | May 15, 2013 at 12:57 PM
"independent-minded"
----would such have 100% free will?
Posted by: Roger | May 15, 2013 at 01:44 PM
"Plenty of intelligent and independent-minded folk had fruitful talks with him: Alan Watts, Aldous Huxley, David Bohm, Indira Gandhi... off the top of my head."
Yes, he was taken seriously by intelligent people, but even Aldous Huxley admitted that he assumed the existence of someone more enlightened than himself who he could turn to, thus setting himself up for The World Teacher.
But this is human nature. I don't assume that no one can help me or guide me, but I can't trust help/guidance that is consciously intentional, so I take my cues only from those who don't know they're giving them.
Posted by: cc | May 15, 2013 at 04:17 PM
someone more enlightened
I understand the trap but I can't think of anyone who made it clearer than Krishnamurti. The way he put it was so uncompromising - distressingly so, for me at the time.
I can't trust help/guidance that is consciously intentional
If you mean 'rehearsed' or 'parroted' then I understand what you're saying. If the delivery is 'I know and you don't', that suggests a lack of transparency. But I don't have a problem with consciousness and intention in general. For example I like people who are willing to pause for thought and/or make the occasional stumble and recover gracefully. These 'flaws' are hard to fake, and like the flaws in a natural diamond, are a sign of authenticity.
JK fell short in some of these respects.
Posted by: Tom | May 16, 2013 at 02:30 AM
I understand the trap but I can't think of anyone who made it clearer than Krishnamurti
Made what clearer?
Posted by: cc | May 16, 2013 at 09:04 AM
Made what clearer?
The trap of believing in someone more enlightened, being a slave to ideas.
Posted by: Tom | May 16, 2013 at 02:54 PM
So the way to make it clear that no one can tell you that no one can tell you is for someone to tell you?
Posted by: cc | May 16, 2013 at 04:12 PM
The Cosmological Constant
I will now make the case why God exists.
Our universe is composed of mathematics
so simple, they can be written on one sheet of paper. From there they transform into all
the complexity we know.
The odds our universe could exist, out of all possible universes, is a point with
120 zero decimal places behind it, with a 1.
In other words, it is literally impossible
our universe could exist by chance.
So, God must exist.
But, for scientists to defeat the logic God
must have created us, they have had to come up with another theory.
That our universe is one of countless other
universes we cannot see or know of.
In other words, if the Multiverse proposed
by scientists does not exist, then even atheist scientists have to admit that
God exists.
.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000001
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 16, 2013 at 05:41 PM
So the way to make it clear that no one can tell you that no one can tell you is for someone to tell you?
Pretty much, yes. Particularly if you have the habit of going to authority to sort out the meaning of your life. Which covers the vast majority of human beings, doesn't it?
Posted by: Tom | May 17, 2013 at 01:33 AM
If Krishnamurti had really wanted people to find out for themselves rather than go to the guru, he wouldn't have talked about things that can't be tested, i.e., his own religious notions and grandiose delusions. And when it was clear that he'd attracted followers that hung on his every word and donated money, he kept playing the role of spiritual leader. Telling his followers to find out for themselves was just a disclaimer.
Posted by: cc | May 17, 2013 at 08:39 AM
Is it really that clear cut?!
You yourself speak as if you have no doubts on this subject. Where is your disclaimer?
I'm just saying what he did for me. Shall we leave it there?
Posted by: Tom | May 17, 2013 at 09:58 AM
But you haven't said what he did for you. You've just expressed your admiration.
I feel he was deluded and that he misled a lot of people, many of whom continue to mislead people today. This blog exists primarily to expose the foolishness and fiendishness of religion, but for some reason it attracts religious people who use it to express their fondness for a particular guru, belief, or whatever spiritual nonsense they can't keep to themselves.
Posted by: cc | May 17, 2013 at 10:38 AM
About God (about which there can really be nothing about):
There doesn't need to be any understanding other than the obvious...that what I(God)Am is no object.
If I(God) am no objective thing then I am not a subject either because a subject is also an object.
Anything other than this direct intuitive understanding means someone is having views, i.e. conceptualizing like.. God is love, light, omnipotent, the universe, everlasting, power, grace, all knowing, etc., etc.
Even this intuitive realization can become conceptual. If so, then I (God) become some objectivized thing. But I can't be a thought, or thought of, because what I am is necessarily unconscious of being conscious.
As a conceptualized thought I(God) see what I am as a kind of object which is a non-object. But what I am is not a non-object. I am total objective absence which is total subjective presence that is as unaware of absence as of presence.
So, I(God) am not, whereby I am...I who am necessarily everything and no thing, and neither any nor no thing.
All conceptualizing of God is objectifying subject, a temporal process by which subject seeks to objectify itself, which by the way is THE primary illusory process.
If I (God) am sought objectively I will never be found because I am no object.
Non-objectively regarded, I can't be known at all. Yet I unselfconsciously AM.
Absolute is phenomenally negative and objects are phenomenally positive. Only by negating the objective can Absolute be revealed. Then I (God) as I AM..am revealed.
Posted by: tucson | May 17, 2013 at 01:01 PM
Hi tucson,
I love it when someone with a high I.Q.
makes a statement.
Take all the dualities and throw them
in the trash. Throw out all philosophy.
Life HURTS. Life is painful.
Will all the philosophy in the world
change this situation ? Don't we already
have philosophy till it comes out our ears ?
Religion and philosophy change nothing.
Can we deal with real issues here and now ?
Why do we speak of philosophy when the world
is in real turmoil ?
Why are real issues "off the subject" ?
Because we deal in fantasies here.
Philosophy keeps us from dealing with
real issues that affect real people in real life.
But, real life issues are "off subject here".
What if we have made a mistake and life is
real ?
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 17, 2013 at 01:55 PM
But you haven't said what he did for you. You've just expressed your admiration.
Eh? He made some things clear, as I've said in two or three of my comments - do you really want me to repeat myself?
This blog exists primarily to expose the foolishness and fiendishness of religion, but for some reason it attracts religious people who use it to express their fondness for a particular guru, belief, or whatever spiritual nonsense they can't keep to themselves.
OK. I take it I'm one of the enemy, seeing as I stand accused of admiration for one these abominable creatures?
Have you considered it might actually help your cause if you didn't pursue it as part of some holy war? As they say, truth is the first casualty. And to me nothing seems less persuasive than a fulminating partisan.
Posted by: Tom | May 17, 2013 at 05:45 PM
Hi Tom,
True, going for a long walk or a run can induce a blissful state. I have done and experienced these things myself. Listening to calming, beautiful music or just the sounds of nature can also be blissful. However, the bliss state derived from yogic practices (mainly pranayamas and meditation) are different than the long walk, run, or music.
My practice of Kriya Yoga has and continues to be a process and "inner journey," (if you will.) It's not the sights/ visions or sounds that matter. What matters is the benefits of mind and body.
An older gentleman, Ennio Nimis, has compiled his life experiences and offers his book free online. He illustrates and explains many of the steps/ techniques which he has learned from various kriya teachers. It is called Kriya Yoga Synthesis Of An Experience." Kriya yogainfo.net.
Posted by: Anonymus | May 17, 2013 at 09:11 PM
"What if we have made a mistake and life is real?"
In my opinion LIFE IS REAL. There is no mistake that we exist. We live, we experience, we learn and we grow. Yes, life hurts and yes, life is painful at times. But that is the nature of existence. We take the good with the bad and learn from our experiences.
If we have problems we look at what is the cause and how can we change things in our life so that they do not cause distress.
Posted by: Anonymus | May 17, 2013 at 09:39 PM
Correction on my previous post. It is to Aristok regarding how going for a long walk or a run outside can induce a blissful state. My reply is yes, it can as I have done and experienced these things myself. A blissful state can also occur from listening to calm, beautiful music or by the sounds and the beauty of nature. However, the bliss derived from yogic practices(mainly pranayamas and meditation) is different than the walk, run, listening to beautiful music or experiencing nature.
Posted by: Anonymus | May 17, 2013 at 09:56 PM
Mike Williams
you wrote:
“Don't we already
have philosophy till it comes out our ears ?
.....
Philosophy keeps us from dealing with
real issues that affect real people in real life.
But, real life issues are "off subject here".
What if we have made a mistake and life is real ?
For me life IS real. I have no doubts about our real existence.
And even if I am not right, nothing changes.
The search for
“the deepest nature of this energetic/mental phenomenon that is the 'stuff' of existence” (quote Jon)
is a great fun. I am enjoying the mere searching for the so called “truth”, even knowing that I will never achieve this aim.
It is not my point of view that “philosophy keeps us from dealing with real issues”,
I rather think that philosophy helps us when dealing with real life problems,
changing our attitude to life.
It makes us calm, serene, relaxed.
I don’t want to fill my head with unimportant details, which all pass by in a moment.
Philosophy is for me the “salt” of the human existence.
Posted by: Sandra | May 17, 2013 at 10:40 PM
Hi again Anonymus,
I was just seeing the parallel/connection you made between the breath and bliss and your point about the 'non- mystical' aspect.
It seems that a heightened awareness/correspondence with Nature (including a visual appreciation of colour, awe, wonder occurs after vigorous/invigorating (physical)exertion).
I see that you are talking about Kriya yoga, specifically, and a form of guided visualisation...the colours, man/ma'am !
Unlike you, I do not experience what I would call 'bliss' from listening to music. I am referring to what is commonly called a 'runner's high'.
I have no experience of Kriya yoga.
Of course, breath and mind are linked and I have heard of the chakra symbolism you are talking about.
I don't know/see that one kind of blissful state can be compared with another, really.
Cheers, Aristok.
Posted by: aristok | May 18, 2013 at 07:38 AM
He made some things clear, as I've said in two or three of my comments - do you really want me to repeat myself?
Yes, Tom, please repeat yourself. As for calling me a "fulminating partisan" waging "a holy war", would you mind terribly if I called you a groveling sycophant wagging a tattered tail?
Posted by: cc | May 18, 2013 at 08:56 AM
Hello to Mike, Sandra, others.
What is real? To suppose that there could be any difference between what appears to be real and what appears to be unreal, or between some 'thing' and no 'thing' is illusory since neither the one nor the other, both together or the absence of both, could possibly have anything other than a conceptual existence.
Phenomena, objects, ourselves, can only have an apparent space-time existence as concepts in mind.
So, who is there to completely understand this? Nobody... but "I" do... I, who am no 'where' to be found as any sort of 'thing' known, seen or perceived as an object.
Any being can say this; horse, bug, bird or priest if they intuitively apprehend that objective absence is subjective presence.
Which is absolute release.
Posted by: tucson | May 18, 2013 at 09:26 AM
Is chasing 'blissful states' a kind of hedonism ? This might be an absurdly irreverent observation/question to ask with respect to (some) spiritual figures/elements/practices/traditions. Or is it?
I have succeeded in startling and confusing myself and/or the point, really.
Cheers, Aristok.
Posted by: aristok | May 18, 2013 at 10:54 AM
1. Where is this mind in which concepts reside? I presume it's in the mind, yes? This is a circular regress that I'm afraid is not worthy of any serious consideration.
2. If everything ONLY exists as concepts in mind, it precludes the possibility that Brian and Mike, Sandra and Jon (themselves) have minds since they are objects in mind in the first place.
This concept of a mind in which all else are concepts is a variation of the philosophical dead end known as solipsism.
Posted by: Jon | May 18, 2013 at 11:04 AM
Jon kindly inquired: Where is mind?
Maybe if we know 'what' mind is we will understand 'where' it is. The sense-perceived universe is the objective aspect of mind. Mind has no other objective aspect at all. In other words, it has no objective existence as 'mind'.
Since mind is not other than the sense-perceived universe, subjectively it can't be anything else either.
Because what it is subjectively can't be any sort of 'thing', it can't BE other than what it is in objectivity...phenomena.
Since there can be no kind of 'thing' for mind to be, it follows that mind must be whatever we are that perceives the universe.
Therefore, since both objectively and subjectively the universe is 'mind' and vice-versa, the universe is whatever we are both objectively and subjectively. There is no place for duality because duality dissolves in subjectivity and subjectivity has no cognizable existence other than as objectivity.
Everything cognized is just what is called 'mind' and what is called 'mind' is just the cognizing of everything. And 'who' does it? There is no one to be found, no mystery person-thing anywhere. Such is as it is.
As for Brian, Mike, Sandra and Jon.. they are what I am. Even the dog can say it.
Don't try to think your way through this, for then it does become a logical solipsism. One must 'see' intuitively. It is a direct 'knowing' that does not involve a thought process. Thought processes may take you to the precipice, but the 'leap' is made without it.
Posted by: tucson | May 18, 2013 at 04:08 PM
Hello Aristok
Hedonism is not the goal of the practice of Kriya Yoga meditation. The goal is to awaken or become enlightened.
Posted by: Anonymus | May 18, 2013 at 09:04 PM
And 'who' does it? There is no one to be found...
quote tucson
When little kids play in a sandbox,
do they know WHO they are, or even care ?
Only the childlike understand the great mystery and ARE THE MYSTERY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXLzWVdtLns
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 18, 2013 at 09:04 PM
Hello Tucson
I agree with what is posted in your final paragraph; that it is a direct "knowing" not involving a thought process. One "sees" intuitively and the "leap" is made.
Posted by: Anonymus | May 18, 2013 at 09:24 PM
I found a text passage of the german philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel which could possibly match the topic:
I try to translate it roughly.
The philosophy cannot posit the separates without putting them in the Absolute.
Otherwise they are mere opposites which have no other character than: the one to be, the other not to be.
The relation to the Absolute is NOT a rescind/a cancelling of both because in this case they won’t be separated. They should remain separated not loosing their character when putting them into the Absolute (or the Absolute is put in them). Both have to be put in the Absolute, because why should the one [my note: the some-thing/the subject] have the right, but not the other one [the no-thing/the object]?
If only the one is related to the Absolute and not also the other, their being woudn’t be equal and the unification of both (the aim of philosophy) to void duality, couldn’t be possible.
J.G. Fichte has put only one (of the two) into the Absolute; according to his comprehension, only the selfconsciousness has the right and the necessity, the subject=object, and its selfconsciousness is not only related to the Absolute, but itself IS the Absolute, the absolute identity. (...)
This viewpoint is not the highest, since it is only reasoning in a particular form, and from this point of view the object seems to be something which doesn’t determine itself.
Both have to be put into the Absolute (or the Absolute beeing put into both forms) and at the same moment both to exist separately: the subject herewith is a subjective subjectobject, - the object an objective subjectobject. And since the duality is posited, both of the opposites are an opposite to itself. And the division goes to the infinity. And so every part of the subject and every part of the object themselves are existing in the Absolute as identities. And so every cognition is a truth, every dust particle is an organisation ....
Posted by: Sandra | May 19, 2013 at 03:12 AM
Tucson thoughtfully wrote:
"Mind must be whatever we are that perceives the universe."
So mind equals consciousness.
But for consciousness to arise, certain complex manifest conditions must be met. Not least a universe in which brains and nervous systems are manifest. Even if it could be argued that consciousness is not dependent on the brain for its existence, there is little doubt that a brain is required for its manifestation as this unmistakable 'lucid self-aware knowing'.
You wrote:
"As for Brian, Mike, Sandra and Jon.. they are what I am."
Well, we could say that they all exist as modulations of this event of existence or something like that. But it's clear that each one has a 'subjective perspective'. Each one is conscious - with a mind/consciousness that could be disabled in minutes with drugs or a scalpel.
Tucson, it's clear from what (and how) you write here that a lot of thought processing has gone into your version of events. In fact this is precisely where my objections lay. I think that you are making too much of a claim here. No one has solved the mind-body problem - and no one is about to. We just don't know!!
(It's my particular intuition that humans may never solve it - our biology is not designed with the capability of transcending certain cognitive limitations.)
Posted by: Jon | May 19, 2013 at 11:21 AM
In the time it takes you to discuss
whether this world is real or not....
You could have gone to an animal shelter
and walked a poor helpless scared puppy
around the block.
You could have given this poor scared
puppy infinite love.
Satan tells you this world is not real,
the puppy knows this world is real.
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 19, 2013 at 01:02 PM
What we are could not possibly be limited by a grouping of words into a concept. In transcendence of such concepts we are infinite and inherently intemporal. We are inconceivable because conceptuality cannot conceive its source. As this inconceivable source there are no questions or answers.
Here I am referring to 'you's' in general and not any particular 'you'....
'You' can't see it because 'you' think 'you' are looking, and 'you' can't see Looking because It is what is looking, and what is looking is not a 'you'. No 'you' could ever see It. With "you' removed...it is here. Even mind-body is its object.
Babe Ruth swinging a bat and no thought of it.
Posted by: tucson | May 19, 2013 at 01:05 PM
Mike Williams,
thanks for this expressive statement
(May 19, 2013 at 01:02 PM)
your words are touching
Posted by: Sandra | May 19, 2013 at 02:57 PM
Hi Sandra, tucson, Tom, Elizabeth
To Tom, seems you bumped into
a 'mole' on this club. Congratulations,
that means you have angered Satan
and the Guru. You are now a full
fledged member here now.
To tucson,
WHO are we ?
We are no WHO.
To Sandra,
Yes, we neglect real life and those
having pain, when we do yoga and study
philosophy. The devils den is full
of distraction. The devil never shows
you how to do it here and now. Satan
makes great promisses for the future
he never keeps.
Hi Elizabeth,
You are a sweet person and kind soul.
http://retrofilms.in/index.php?productID=326
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 19, 2013 at 06:43 PM
There are many insightful and interesting comments posted here.
My point for writing my experiences and "Thoughts ON Yogananda's Kriya" is to show how what I perceived as a spiritual event.... the sights and sounds while practicing Kriyas may not have been spiritual at all. Instead, just a by product produced by the practice.
I also wanted to share some of the absurd things that are said by gurus. Yogananda for all his tales of people materializing a second body and being in 2 places at once. The stopping of veinous blood. etc.
Posted by: Anonymus | May 19, 2013 at 08:54 PM
Mike Williams,
yes, wasted time
being concentrated on the own ego
spending so much time for the so called enlightenment of the own person
which will never be reached anyway
just for our great fun
so selfish.
yes, we are deceived all the time
the gurus tell us to surmount our ego
meditating
and we are obtaining the contrary
being misleaded in a much bigger
ego-jailhouse
Posted by: Sandra | May 19, 2013 at 11:23 PM
One thing, I suspect about this post comment is the person who wrote in detail her experiences of practicing Kriya Yoga never experienced those colors/visions she was describing, it's only picked up from others/books. Just to make her point across strongly, if through pranayama she experienced all thost states/visions surely she would be wasting time here! Because i am practicing meditation and kundalini pranayama for last 4 years and haven't experienced any of those states, but one is sure meditation is making me more peaceful by day and am reaching one pointed thought and thoughess stae quickly and setting inner calmness and has lot of positive affects in daily life.
Posted by: Wayne | January 16, 2016 at 07:47 AM
I found this website while I was browsing reviews for Kriya Yoga.
Disclaimer: I am from the west but not into to believing any guru.
1. Guru , the enlightened one definitely does not mean he will help you see God(if such a thing exist). He can only show you path. The rest is your faith and hardwork. Just like how no one became famous overnight, no one can become enlightened overnight. If you think the opposite but continue to do some actions , you will obviously not get the result.
2. In this world there are so many things that cannot be explained. I have experienced telepathy and I feel it's beyond what my mind can comprehend. Some times you have to notice this. If you think some God will come in front of you and would give you some lecture, I would certainly laugh. Here God maybe a metaphor of the experience.
3. You should blindly not believe in anything and also try honestly before discarding. I also dont buy into institutions who wants to make money. But, have you tried their courses honestly? To be frank, I discredited them and took it as a challenge to disprove that there is nothing amazing about this and it is all a lie. During the course ( not from this institution) I did see a bigger change in life. The way I saw things, the way I did my work all at whole new level. I did nothing but blindly apply it ( just to disprove) but it proved me wrong. It played a great role even in my materialistic world. So, I would not say all their courses are completely useless. It may not meet your expectations of God revelation ( I cannot testify for that) but it is certainly bound to change certain aspects in life positively
I totally think people should explore these free lessons and set their expectations. Online reviews are personal experiences and a lot has to do with our past. You will have different results with your past. As long as it does not involve losing your money or time, so long I would promote trying those techniques
Posted by: Rama | January 14, 2017 at 10:43 AM
I'm an ex hindu roots new ager, now with the Holy Spirit spiritbomb777.blogspot.com
Posted by: Darren | August 30, 2019 at 12:29 PM
Hi Darren,
Just looked through your blogspot. I am an ex follower of Radha Soami Satsang Beas and you have had a similar journey to mine. I still have no answers as to why we are here and what are we anyway? Just settling with unknowingness and emptiness, trying to shut off the constant chattering nonsense in the mind.
I wonder how many people do have this never ending desire and constantly being on some kind of mission to find out what the heck is this all about. I've been like this since I was a child although then it was quite lovely to have a rich imagination and now I'm trying to let it all go because nothing makes sense. We live and then we die, thats it, even though there is so much inner yearning and suffering and wanting some kind of enlightenment. Is it just simply all in the mind or our inner being longing to find home?
Posted by: Jen | August 30, 2019 at 03:07 PM