Gurinder Singh's son become CEO of Religare subsidiary

Money (lots of it) and spirituality (questionable amount of it) continue to mix at Radha Soami Satsang Beas, the Indian religious organization I used to be a part of.

Someone just emailed me a link to this news story, "Religare Health Trust names Gurpreet Dhillon as CEO."

Religare Health Trust (RHT), a wholly owned subsidiary of Delhi-based Religare Enterprise Ltd (REL), has named Gurpreet Dhillon as CEO of the company. Earlier, Dhillon was working as the executive director and COO of RHT.

...Gurpreet Dhillon is also a second cousin of the billionaire brothers Malvinder and Shivinder Singh who are the promoters of Religare and Fortis Group. Moreover, Gurpreet is one of the two sons of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, leader of the spiritual group Radha Soami Satsang Beas. The Singh brothers are followers of the spiritual group and their maternal grandfather had previously served as one of the gurus of the group.

It's a tangled web -- the connections between Guru Gurinder Singh Dhillon, Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, and the guru's sons. You can read about the strands here, here, and here.

Some will say that all's fair between relatives, whether close or distant. If a Radha Soami Satsang Beas devotee wants to make Indian-style billionaires out of relatives who just happen to be the guru and his sons, so what?

Others, like me, have an old-fashioned view that spirituality shouldn't be so closely connected to money-making. Gurus and other spiritual leaders should be focused on "divine" aspirations, not becoming hugely rich.

Comments

[cc]

Is Gurpreet Dhillon any relation to Baab Dhillon?

[Nasha]

He doesn't look a young innocent 26yr old that oops just happened to get a large chunk of Religare shares and went on the billionaire's list. Sounds like he's been being groomed for the past 10yrs.
I am also of the old fashioned view of LOGIC that if a spirtual path claims in their countless books and satsangs that too much worldy materialism doesn't mix with the true spirtuality they are preaching; then they themselves would follow in what they preach.
On the other hand if the basis of RS was have as much materialism as you want and follow the vows/path, they are not dependent on each other, only then would the mix of RS and Religare make sense to me.

[Skeptic]

How does the family justify teaching that to meet God you must resist greed and acquiring lots of money and material things and instead spend time doing seva and simran? Plus for me the worst of it is the abuse of family power to acquire enormous wealth. And the satsangi sheeple blinded by their own egos don't even see it. Sigh...

[cc]

Hey, wudduya gunna du? There's sheeple waitin' to be fleeced. Sumboddy's godda do it.

[Avi]

That once again reminded me of one of my favorite quotes by Charan that he used often in his Punjabi satsangs:

"Man sadda duniya de shaklan aur padarthan waste bhatkada aur tadafda firda hai, milna assin parmatma noo chouhne haan; ae dovein gallan ek saath taan kade nahin ho sakdian."

An approximate English translation would be:

While we all seek God, our mind
keeps contemplating about and wandering
after worldly possessions; the two can
never be achieved together.

May be, times have changed and so the quote may no longer be valid.

..... but how about this one:

“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
- Socrates

[the9thGate]

Nice post Brian. It's a tough one. Money is important....how much is enough? I am guessing Gurinder Singh never has to ever worry about money ever again...perhaps being a billionaire is not enough for him. I can't condemn him for wanting to be a wealthy man. I agree with Skeptic that satsangs preach too much about money being the root of all evil. Many a times I have heard Baba Ji say "If you want to ruin somebody, give them money"....perhaps Baba Ji has not acquired enough dollars to be completely ruined. Perhaps not having to worry about money gives one the ability to focus on spirituality more. Lack of money can be stressful and a mind consuming worry;....I wonder if going forward; Baba Ji will retract his statement at satsangs and confess that money is important to survive in our day and age. Spirituality? We have concrete evidence that Gurinder Singh is a money magnet...I don't need to be a vegetarian, abstain from naughty behaviour and meditate for two hours everyday to prove to myself that Gurinder Singh is one wealthy son of a gun. I wish it were that easy to prove that he were God in Human Form.

[the9thGate]

Actually Tara; I think you put it best. I know disciples of Ranjinder Singh in America who are in dire financial states and yet they fork out the money to travel to his satsangs to get a glimpse of him and a pat on the head (he does that a lot apparently).....I actually said to one disciple of Ranjinder's "Can't he just loan you the money.. $50,000 dollars would be nothing to him and it would remove your debt to the bank and you would be able to focus on your meditation more without worry"...she looked at me in shock and said "He has already taken all my karma on his shoulders and he has to carry my burden. How can I expect more of him?"...What do you say to a person like that Tara? The hold the Masters have on their flock is akin to the hold american wrestling has on it's spectators....mystifying!

[no mane]

We have the TBTF banks screwing everybody in the world, and now this group -- connected to RS --- is into investment banking. Man oh man. I am so thoroughly disgusted. We are so deep in the matrix it isn't even funny!!

[777]

Charan : ""While we all seek God, our mind
keeps contemplating about and wandering
after worldly possessions; the two can
never be achieved together.""

Yes, . . AT THE SAME 'TIME'.

Cheers

[h.singh]

Today I read on the internet that malwinder singh is trying to raise billion dollars for fortis group because he wants to create a new pharmaceutical firm and gurinder singh dhillon is busy seeking $467 million from singapore for relagere trust.
The way things are going dera beas seems more like Malik bhago dera.

[parminder singh dhillon]

These are bizarre accusations against Baba ji and his family people will always find ways to drag a true and perfect gurus name through mud. They are so many fake gurus and pundits in the world especially in India you don't see anybody saying or writing about them. People should always get their facts straight and themselves before pointing a finger to my Baba ji, people who have never met him will say these things, many of us do the opposite to what sant mat teaches us when things go wrong for us we always point the finger to the guru rather than ourselves. Please get your facts in order first before even thinking about passing judgement on anyone least of all baba ji.

[Brian Hines]

Parminder, what facts are wrong? You didn't mention this. Before you accuse someone of having false facts, you should be sure that what you are saying is true. Please specifically describe what facts you believe are wrong, and why.

[cc]

They are so many fake gurus and pundits in the world especially in India you don't see anybody saying or writing about them.

Alright, I shall address this injustice by saying that your Baba ji is a fake, Parminder.

[Mike Williams]

These gurus are in your face.
Can you say sociopathic ?

The lowest form of scum on the earth.

[the9thGate]

That's the thing about judgement....we can all pass it and become victims of it...it's just a daily part of living Parminder. Who is to decide who is exempt?

[Gautam]

If he was a God in living form he would just have to click his fingers and millions of gold bars would appear. But he has to take the money of RSSB and invest it into financial institutions and practice nepotism by favoring his relatives. No way he is God in human form.

[john]

As baba ji says, its not money that is bad, but what money can potentially make us which is bad!!! Having the right mind set irrespective of the amount of wealth you have is what is important. In no way is wealth a hindrance to spiritual success BUT its our egos!!
May be we should also refresh on our history of many wealthy spiritually evolved souls ie King Raja janak and princess meera bhai to name a few.
Treating wealth as a gift from the all mighty with a humble spirit and detached mindset is the key to balancing wealth with spirituality.
Prove the master wrong!!???...meditate wholeheartedly for just 2 weeks and as soami ji maharaj says you shall experience the power of shabad and naam for yourself!!!!!

[Jesse]

I haven't posted here or read the blog in over a year, but it's nice to come back and see the articles are still being written regularly.

In response to what John wrote on November 17th about Mira Bai, I would have to ask first, how do you know that Mira Bai was "spiritually evolved?" The number of so-called "Saints" in India is astounding. After reading Indian spiritual literature for about a decade now, I'm convinced the whole thing is simply cultural baggage and that Indian saints are to India what psychologists are to USA.

They call all kinds of people saints in India and write about them in their newspapers regularly. Convicted rapists, murderers, child kidnappers etc. Invariably the so-called saints are defended by their chelas, notwithstanding video evidence of their crimes.

Just because there are books with flowery poetry that are recited often, that doesn't indicate any saintliness. What are the criteria and what methods do we have to establish the veracity of the evidence? A million people say really nice things that sound spiritual. Big deal. I can write Sutras as well and label a bunch of mystic worlds and experiences. Does that make me a saint?

Also, since you mentioned Mira Bai and her wealth, you should also mention that she was reported to have given it all up. She also attempted to give her Guru an extremely large diamond so as to secure his existence without hardship. He declined her offer and returned the diamond. Did Baba Gurinder return shares of Religare to the disciples who donated it to him to avoid the burden of karma, or did he accept the shares happily? And did he not only accept massive wealth but also go to great lengths to procure it and keep it within his family? Supposedly all work not aimed at spirituality is wasted. He wasted a lot of time(and probably sangat money) to travel the world building up the corporation he is heavily invested in.

So, if you want to blindly believe in the purity of mythological characters from a history quite foreign to yours(I'm assuming by your name that you're not Indian) then at least get the facts straight and apply standards based on those facts.

Jesse

[Manisha]

Your site is useless and senseless.its comprised of all idiots and illegitimate stuff.so stop talking and doing nusancy.

[Brian Hines]

Manisha, thanks for the kind words. Since I enjoy Taoist philosophy, I've always thought being useless, senseless, and an idiot was a compliment rather than an insult.

[Rajindra]

Hi Brian:

I totally agree with you what you have discovered that Baba is more of businessman than a religious person. He is using all his connections from the religious congregation to enrich himself and his family.
I wonder why these people can not be exposed in the India via investigational journalism.

[devpaul]

Hi Brian
I have read your book "God's Whisper; Creation's Thunder" A very good intellectual work I will say. If I am correct you dedicated this book to Gurinder Singh ji the master of Radha soami as it was written on initial 2nd or 3rd page. I am curious to know if you were ever initiated by him and if you practiced the philosophy of santmat ever sincerely? What benefits or harms did this practice cause you? Now as I read it seems that your faith is not in this philosophy. Were you directly be-fooled or cheated by this organization or its Head? Were you ever directly associated with Gurinder singh? Did you ever find any single positive thing in Gurinder Singh during your association? What do you think ... was he a total negative negative man with a lots of greet, ego and all human evils. If you have to compare yourself with him, what will you say... Is he as good as you and as bad as you or your are better than him and in which aspect and in which human quality do you think you possess more than him or vice-versa. Please be honest in this analysis and do answer this question. You this answer will help me in understanding your comments about radha-soami faith.

[Brian Hines]

devpaul, I was initiated by Charan Singh (through a representative) in 1971. Yes, I practiced Sant Mat, RSSB style, sincerely. For about 35 years.

Your other questions are difficult to reply to. Either briefly or at length.

I don't feel that it is possible to compare myself with other people. We're all different. I know myself from the inside, and as how I experience other people responding to me. I can't do that for anyone else, including Gurinder Singh.

I met Gurinder Singh quite a few times. I liked him. But then, I like most people. We all have strengths and weaknesses.

[Mike Williams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0A7xIt4QUU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUr9Qm656ys

Journalist exposes RS Beas land scams

OSHO might translate for us or Tara

The Financial Express
Religious sect leader Gurinder Singh, Radha Soami Satsang Beas accused of cheating
Aneesha Mathur | New Delhi | Updated: Jan 08 2014, 10:01 IST
Summary
The religious body does not maintain accounts or lists of donation, proceeds
from sale of books, pictures etc.
A complaint filed before a city court in December alleges that
the Radha Soami Satsang Beas, a religious body, does not maintain
accounts or lists of donations, or proceeds from sale of books,
pictures of saints and other material sold to devotees.
Satvir Singh (61), in his plea has alleged that the Radha Soami
Satsang Beas did not provide any receipts or proof of donations
to devotees, and had amassed a lot of wealth. The court of
Metropolitan Magistrate Purva Sareen has directed the police to
file an Action Taken Report in the complaint by January 15.
Accusing the head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas — Gurinder Singh
Dhillon — of cheating, fraud and breach of trust, Singh has sought
registration of an FIR under IPC Sections 420 and 406 .
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/religious-sect-leader-satvir- singh-radha-soami-satsang-beas-accused-of-cheating/1216785

[Mike Williams]

Documentary 1 - Radha Soami Dera Beas have been accused of Encroachment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou2YR9rSJ5Q

Need interpreter

[devpaul]

Hi brain
Why did you stop the practice, what harm was caused to you by it? Why are you against this philosophy now. what i see you only write the negative thing about it. What is the final out come of court cases that you donot mention. Do you feel does this sect do any single good thing in society? if not why million are following them? Why you got befooled in 1971?

[Brian Hines]

devpaul, let me ask you a few questions. Then you'll see why your questions don't make any sense.

Have you had the same job all of your life? Have you had only one romantic relationship your entire life? Have you owned just one car, bicycle, or other means of transportation your entire life? Have you ever moved to another house or another town?

I could go on with more questions, but you get the idea. Life is full of changes. Each of us does one thing for a while, then we do another thing.

Doing something different doesn't mean we hated the first thing while we were doing it. It just means that we made a change, for lots of possible reasons.

I've used the example of marriage before.

I was first married in 1970. I loved my wife for a long time. We had many happy years together. Then we got divorced in 1989. I wasn't "fooled" into marrying my first wife. I didn't make a mistake. I wasn't unhappy with her. I'm not sad that I ever married her.

We just grew apart. We fell out of love. I married another woman. We've been married for over twenty years. We're happy together. Like I said, life is change.

You are asking questions that don't make any sense. People enjoy doing one thing for a while; then they decide to do something else, for any of a wide variety of reasons. No big deal. Life is change.

[the9thGate]

Brian I think your conversation with Devpaul really illustrates how some people yearn for permanence. We look for absolutes in marriages, friendships, relationships, careers...you already gave some great examples so I'll stop.
Some people deal with change in a mature nature; some find it harder and pull out the pram waiting for comfort (that sounds like me).
We get stressed trying to control every aspect of our lives....we get bitter and resentful when change comes and we are not ready for it; especially when it is the change we do not want.
Change can mean a loss of investment, be it emotional, financial, physical...I knew letting go of my beliefs regarding God and RSSB was the rational choice for me but the emotional change left a huge gap in my life...recently I am beginning to think that the gap is necessary and the void is something I should explore instead of trying to fill it up with something else.

[Mike Williams]

New Incredible Meat Eating Study

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/08/health/study-points-to-new-culprit-in-heart-disease.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Also it is being reported Resveratrol
cures postate cancer and heart disease.
This is confirmed.

[the9thGate]

Interesting read Mike. I wanted to ask a question please? I was wondering what your thoughts are about the pineal gland? I have been reading and watching videos on it but would love to read your opinion on whether its de-calcification can be good for a person or this all some myth?

[Mike Williams]

Hi 9th Gate,

There's alot of speculation about the pineal, much of
which comes from Descartes and old cultures. As far as
I know they only think DMT is produced by it.

The pineal gland is the favorite stuff of Gurus. A Guru
can say anything they want about it and who could prove
them wrong ?

New studies find the heart center to throw off the most
powerful vibrations of the body.

There is some evidence of entanglement with the heart center.

In old Indian lore, the kundalini goes up the ida and pingala
and curves around back down from the head to the Higher Heart
Centre in a loop.

Ramana Maharshi and Ram Chandra used pranahuti transmission
to the Heart Centre.

We now know there is instantaneous transmission via thought
between people. Thought can change matter. Thought can change
random number generators.

It has been proven that consciousness can perceive randomly
generated pictures, before they even show up.

Consciousness changes waves into particles. This drives scientists
crazy.

Our emotions and thought literally change the vibrations of
our entire field. We are a vibrational being.

Is consciousness the product of matter, or is there a primal
consciousness at the foundation of matter ?

If the cosmological constant is not by accident and there are
not multiverses, than we were created.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytyqhyZoSOM

[the9thGate]

Thanks Mike. That was very informative and an interesting watch. I may have to watch some of it again before I start bombarding you with lots of questions. Hope you are well. My way of saying thank you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1SUyeIqWWM

[TheScientist]

Tara
from the above comment, if it is true, the implications are huge.

This is very serious, because it would make gurinder a fraudster.

Forget about being a true master - he would be classified a criminal, using the benefits of a tax-free organisation (rssb) to line his own pockets and his family's pockets.

This would be illegal. Can you imagine what would happen to the organisation if the leader was found guilty of fraud and served a jail sentence? would the followers continue to believe he was a perfect master?

Can a perfect master also be a criminal or are they mutually exclusive?

[Paul]

[Note: the comment below is factually untrue, as would be apparent if Paul had taken time to do a Google search on this blog and learn the truth about why I was "fired" as a satsang speaker.

It wasn't because of my satsangs/talks, which were well received. In fact, I was asked to speak at several regional satsangs and one national satsang. What got me fired as a speaker was my writings on this blog, which I started about a year before the firing -- as a response to the Christian right's undue influence on the 2004 re-election of President Bush.

Truth is a wonderful thing: check out my blog post from October, 2005: "I've been fired"
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/10/ive_been_fired.html

Here's how the post starts:

"Well, my Meister Eckhart fantasy has been fulfilled. I’ve been fired from giving talks (known as 'satsangs') at meetings of my spiritual group because my Church of the Churchless writings have been too heretical.

Yesterday our local secretary informed me that he had been told by a regional representative, Vince Savarese, that my blogging about Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) had caused a lot of people to be uncomfortable. In New York. In India. All around the RSSB world."

Lesson for commenter Paul: just because you hear something from someone doesn't mean it is true. Check out unproven assertions. This is the problem with religious belief: taking things on faith.

-- Blogger Brian]

Devpaul, I heard from a common friend that Brian was a satsang speaker in Portland OR, and then he started introducing material into his satsangs that was not compatible or a reflection of the sant mat teachings. His satsang speaker "privilege" was taken away from him (I'd understand why), and that's how he started his 'formal' separation from RSSB.

I read his "God's whisper" book several years ago and found it impressive. At the same time, if I can be brutally honest, a point that was very difficult to make was what really enabled him to write about the subject in an authoritative way. It is probably a point that should have been avoided. His answer was that he had dedicated 25 years to this path, which unfortunately shows undue regard for himself (ego). I suspected something would happen that would prove him wrong (that beautiful story about that sikh guru sending his uncle to buy horses in Kabil comes to mind). And what happened is he drifted away from the path he so much regarded. As he says, though, life is full of changes and surprises, and he may decide to go back to it any time.

PS By the way guys, I don't see a problem in being a millionaire and practicing meditation. You guys probably are not millionaires, and that's why you are whining about it. But meditation can be practiced by millionaires and non-millionaires alike, I can attest to that.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tara,
On Jan 15 I posted some links on Dera encroachment and other scandals now on You Tube. I don't know if you speak the language
in the videos above (in this link), but I am
sure they are interesting.

Hi 9th Gate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH2D4-tzfM

Start at 16 minutes in. As a mathematician myself, there is no way of getting around the fact Something created the Universe.

The multiverses are a theory like God, but
our universe is a fact. The odds are trillions and trillions to 1 that our
universe was an accident.

[june schlebusch]

Mike watched it from the beginning, then a second time to make sure I didn,t miss any of the nuances...They met when they were girl and boy, going to school one day...And won,t you take my peg top dear was all that he could say....She bit her little pinafore, close to his side she came, she whispered no, no thank you Tom. But took it all the same...."The Peg Top" Poem my mother taught me as a very young child.

[Juan]

I don't see a problem in being a millionaire and practicing meditation.

………According to some of the teachings of the RSSB Masters it is a problem, I think maybe it also affects adversely some followers if the millions are earned by trafficking influence.

[paul]

Again, being a millionaire is not a problem, and is not prohibited (or counter-advised) by RSSB. Or was that related to one of the vows? Not that I remember. Vows are very clear, really. I don't mean to be disrespectful. I honestly don't see the problem of having gurus and disciples be rich (money-wise). It's not uncommon these days (for gurus or non-gurus). Money can be a very useful thing, too.

Brian, BTW, you have my absolute respect. You have written some of the best books on Sant Mat I have ever read. They were extremely helpful to me (and still are). And I respect you for that. I also respect that you have chosen to take a different path.

Spirituality is a very personal decision. You have written this many times here. And none of us is really entitled to criticize anyone for making their own decisions in this regard. I personally find it very distasteful to destroy or attack someone's faith just because it is not consistent with our beliefs (I have done it in the past, and I can say I am not particularly proud of having done it). Rumi's beautiful poem about Moses and the shepherd comes to mind.

Anyway, as I am sure you will agree we are all 'struggling souls' (so to speak), so we probably better leave everyone to run their lives as they best see fit.

[paul]

Brian, thanks for clarifying about your being 'fired' as a satsang speaker. I think I had read that many years ago. Yes, truth is a wonderful thing. As I am sure you can appreciate, I have no way of knowing whose 'truth' is 'real': our common friend's who told me how it happened, and your own take of the story.

[Brian Hines]

paul, thanks for your thoughts. I heartily agree: live and let live. However...

Reality belongs to all of us. Facts are one thing. Beliefs another. As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own beliefs, but not to your own facts.

When people make assertions about the nature of external or objective reality, these need to be backed up with demonstrable evidence.

Otherwise we end up with what Stephen Colbert calls "truthiness." I just FEEL that global warming isn't real. I just FEEL that evolution isn't true. I just FEEL that gay marriage is bad for children.

Reasons need to be given for assertions about our shared reality. I have no problem at all with whatever people want to fill their psyches with. Or, bodies.

But when mental contents spill out into the public sphere and affect others, we all bear some responsibility for making sure that what we are asserting has solid evidence behind it.

[Brian Hines]

Paul, regarding being fired: this isn't a 50-50 probability, your friend or me being correct.

I wrote that 2005 blog post almost immediately after being told the reason for my "firing" by the secretary of the Salem sangat. He got the news from the regional representative, Vince Savarese.

Rumors are one thing. Facts are another. I urge you to pay more attention to facts than rumors.

[paul]

Brian, I find it very difficult to do. To assert something with solid evidence behind it. I work with politicians, corporate people and media in many countries, and I haven't yet come across a single piece of 'truth' that can really be backed by solid evidence. I guess we could talk about the current temperature where we live, or the final score of a soccer match, but beyond that, imho, everything has a side to it, and more often than not said side has been added with a clear agenda in mind.

In many instances (and this happens more often than not) whole stories are made up to damage reputations. You'd be surprised of how often this happens in political or corporate circles.

[OshoRobbins]

Opinions for sale. They are really good solid opinions. What is more – they are FREE.
Yes – FREE. No charge at all. Also – they appear to be FACTS. In fact I am totally convinced that my opinions are actually FACTS. My opinions are the BEST because they masquerade as FACTS. After you hang around with MY opinions for a while – you will begin to think they are the TRUTH.
My opinions are the BEST opinions in the world – that is why I have them. They have taken me a whole lifetime of work to acquire them. And I’ll be damned if they are not the truth.
I have proof and testimonials that PROVE that my opinions are the TRUTH. They are based on logic, rational thought and science. Lots of other people also agree with my opinions – providing further weight to them and verifying they are the TRUTH.
I KNOW my opinions are the TRUTH and that is why I have total dis-regard for other people’s opinions. Other people’s opinions are FLIMSY and just plain STUPID. They are based on superstition and hearsay. Whereas my opinions are based on a lifetime of research and well founded beliefs supported by the greatest minds of all time.
Once you buy my opinions (and did I say – they are FREE) you will become just like me. And you will agree with me, thus making my opinions even more valid and adding further proof that I AM RIGHT.
I really don’t understand why everyone in the world does not buy my opinions. They are so close to the truth that I could basically call them FACTS rather than opinions. In fact I do.

[OshoRobbins]

I want you to imagine the above advert on the television or in your local newspaper. Would you BUY the opinions

I want you to imagine the above advert appearing on the TV or in your local newspaper. Would you BUY the opinion based on the advert? Especially as it is FREE! It appears to be a BARGAIN too. And the seller claims to be a GENUINE SELLER. (is there any other type?)
Once you BUY the opinion – it becomes YOURS. Once it becomes yours – all the claims about it become the TRUTH (for you). It appears like you made a very WISE choice.
And it appears to be the RIGHT choice, as confirmed by all the people you know who also bought the same opinions from the advert. It feels GOOD to be part of the elite group who know the truth.
One day the whole world will realize that these opinions I just bought are actually the truth.
Okay – so now STOP IMAGINING. And realize that these adverts are EVERYWHERE and all around. And you have BOUGHT a LOT of OPINIONS. I mean a LOT. You have been buying them ever since you were BORN! And will continue until you die!
What is more you DON’Y KNOW that you have been doing this. You thought you were dealing with FACTS and TRUTH. Because once you BUY INTO an opinion – it REALLY appears to be absolutely true.
You have bought so many of these opinions – that it is getting seriously beyond a joke. You have cluttered your mind with millions of opinions and they are BREEDING FAST. Opinions are always acquiring other related opinions. It is like they are party animals and regularly invite all their friends and relatives to a huge wild party.
One day - it HITS you, right between the eyes. You have been DUPED. Good and proper. You look around in your mind and all you see is CLUTTER; all nonsense; all lies; all opinions – mostly UNTRUE, yet all claiming to be the truth.
What a FUCKING nightmare! You realise you can’t even take a step. You can’t even utter a single word without SOMEONE having another fucking opinion about it.
For example some of you just did that NOW – when you read the word ‘FUCKING’. Immediately you had some opinion that popped into your mind. Like, for example, “there is no need to use a RUDE word like that!”
That’s just your opinion – perhaps there is a need. Otherwise why did I use it. Oh yes – I forgot – that is just my opinion too. Perhaps there is no need to use it. Perhaps you are RIGHT!
Ever wondered what this word RIGHT is all about?
Because everyone (including YOU) thinks they are right. How often? Well – just all the time!
Just imagine a world where EVERYONE thinks (in fact KNOWS) that they are RIGHT.
Now open your eyes – that is the world you are living in. Everyone protecting their opinions and fighting for what it RIGHT.
But now suddenly you can see they are not right. They just THINK they are.
In this context – think means to HAVE AN OPINION.
“Nothing is good or bad – but thinking makes it so.” – William Shakespeare
Is the statement true? Is it really true that nothing is good or bad?
Again – lots of OPINIONS will emerge if you make the statement.
Just for laughs – I put the quote into google and lo and behold – just like magic
Lots of OPINIONS emerge. And I can guarantee that everyone who has written a reply believes (in fact KNOWS) that what they wrote is the TRUTH (not just their opinion)
Here’s the link
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080902142640AAx8aU2

[Mike Williams]

Eternal Recurrence
Matt McDonald
Introduction
The Eternal Return is one of Nietzsche's most important thoughts. Nietzsche was not the first to write on the subject, but he did expand the idea of recurrence greatly. He first encountered the idea in his reading of Heinrich Heine, whom Nietzsche admired. Here is a selection from Heine's writing:

For time is infinite, but the things in time, the concrete bodies are finite.... Now, however long a time may pass, according to the eternal laws governing the combinations of this eternal play of repetition, all configurations that have previously existed on this earth must yet meet, attract, repulse, kiss, and corrupt each other again.... And thus it will happen one day that a man will be born again, just like me, and a woman will be born, just like Mary (citation from Kaufmann's Translator's Introduction to The Gay Science, p. 16).

The Eternal Return
The Eternal Return is for Nietzsche the most weighty thought. In Nietzsche's mind the Eternal Return was a horrifying thought, almost paralyzing. Here is a selection from The Gay Science:

The greatest weight. -- What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence -- even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!" Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine"? If this thought gained possession of you, it would change you as you are, or perhaps crush you. (GS 341)

Also in The Will To Power Nietzsche writes "Duration 'in vain' without end or aim is the most paralyzing idea...." (WP 55)

The Eternal Return is basically the theory that there is infinite time and a finite number of events, and eventually the events will recur again and again infinitely. Consider the world as a super-complex chess game. If games of chess are played one after another forever, eventually a game will be repeated since there is only a finite number of possible games. It is the same with the world; eventually events will recur in the same order. The world is an eternal process of coming to be and passing away. The process, however, has no beginning or end. Eventually every combination of matter and energy will be realized and repeated an infinite number of times. Here is a selection from The Will To Power:

If the world may be thought of as a certain definite quantity of force and as a certain definite number of centers of force -- and every other representation remains indefinite and therefore useless -- it follows that, in the great dice game of existence, it must pass through a calculable number of combinations. In infinite time, every possible combination would at some time or another be realized; more: it would be realized an infinite number of times. And since between every combination and its next recurrence all other possible combinations would have to take place, and each of these combinations conditions the entire sequence of combinations in the same series, a circular movement of absolutely identical series is thus demonstrated: the world as a circular movement that has already repeated itself infinitely often and plays its game ad infinitum. (WP 1066)

Nietzsche believed that there is no final state of the universe; that the world is in a constant state of flux, always changing and becoming: "If the world had a goal it must have been reached." (WP 1063) There is no permanence, no duration, no "once-and-for-all": "That a state of equilibrium is never reached proves that it is not possible." (WP 1064) The world never reaches a final state. There is no finality of time; time is infinite. There is also no beginning to time. Nietzsche's time is like a cyclic time, non-linear, bent round in to a circle.

Means for Enduring the Eternal Return
In order to endure this horrifying thought of Eternal Return Nietzsche says we must gain freedom from morality. There must be a revaluation of all values. "To endure the idea of the recurrence one needs: freedom from morality; new means against the fact of pain (pain conceived as a tool, as the father of pleasure; there is no cumulative consciousness of displeasure); the enjoyment of all kinds of uncertainty, experimentalism, as a counterweight to this extreme fatalism; abolition of the concept of necessity; abolition of the 'will'; abolition of 'knowledge-in-itself.'" (WP 1060)

Nietzsche's world is a "Dionysian world of the eternally self-creating, the eternally self-destroying, this mystery world of the twofold voluptuous delight, my "beyond good and evil," without goal, unless the joy of the circle is itself a goal." (WP 1067)

[Mike Williams]

The most facinating group I ever belonged to was the the
Gurdjieff Ouspensky group.
Ouspensky was a world class scientist.
They transmuted the inner bodies by a
process of severe mental and emotional
control. All mathematical, highly defined
dimensions and inner bodies, as the ultra
classic jnani treatise, The Forth Way.

It was Ramana Maharshi on steroids.

Their idea was eternal recurrance with a
twist. Each recurrance your life changed
according to how conscious you became
in the last life.

And, now days we see this astonishing idea
come to life. Its called the parallel
universes with infinite possibilities.

In one universe, Elvis is still alive
and Brian was never fired from Radhasoami
Beas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ds47ozzSrU

[Mike Williams]

If the Gurdjieff Ouspensky idea of eternal
recurrance is correct, it implies some
astonishing things. It means our consciousness is branching off constantly
with every decision.

We perceive life as a straight line.
One life.

But, what if we have thousands of lifes ...
with each decision defining the next road
we go down.

Traveling at the same time is another
conscious person making the exact same decisions at the exact same time, but their decisions differ. They have our body and think our thoughts and our life.

But, they branch in another direction
with each differing decision..

Are we ..... them ?

We know all the past still exists and all the future already exists. We see the single frame on a movie reel. But, this movie reel has multiple movies rolling
at the same time.

Thousands of people could be living
our lives at the same time. And, all
interpenetrating us in parallel universes.

M theory has proven the existance of
parallel universes and proven our
universal big bang was a collision
of two waffle life membranes of two
dimensions.

One membrane one trillionth of a millimeter
in thickness penetrates everything and is causing everything. Literally everything
in our universe.

Yes little Sheba ... the multi verse
exists .... inside you. For a mathematical
fact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ds47ozzSrU

[paul]

My opinions are opinions. I never called anything I said a fact. I will recheck my comments just in case.

Nonetheless, this whole site (especially the comments) is based on opinions made to look as facts. All the grudges held against RSSB by many posters are obviously opinions. Nonetheless, commenters and their readers hold them as facts.

This is misleading at best. The site and the nature of commenters seems to be constructed in such a way that if I say anything against RSSB then it's a fact, and if I say anything for RSSB, then it's an opinion.

Brian, is this not so? Who in this site knows the truth about RSSB? Can we all be honest and acknowledge that anything we comment here for/against RSSB is only opinions?

(Please, quoting from the media, even 'formal' media is not facts. If someone is being investigated, that doesn't mean she did anything wrong. Blogs are the worst (I'm not referring to yours, Brians), because get to say anything they think and some people use them as facts. I can attest to that. If the investigation turns into a conviction it usually means a crime was committed. But then only usually.)

[OshoRobbins]

Paul - you are correct in your observation that opinions are made to look like facts. pretty much everyone does it.
You do it also.
you wrote:
"I have no way of knowing whose 'truth' is 'real'" - yet you prefer to believe the version of events given to you by the secretary as opposed to Brian's version. Even though Brian presented some evidence to back up his version.
you wrote:
"My opinions are opinions. I never called anything I said a fact. I will recheck my comments just in case."
Although you don't use the word 'fact' it is implied by the statements you make.

(1) being a millionaire is not a problem, and is not prohibited (or counter-advised) by RSSB.

(2) And none of us is really entitled to criticize anyone for making their own decisions in this regard. I personally find it very distasteful to destroy or attack someone's faith just because it is not consistent with our belief.

(3) Anyway, as I am sure you will agree we are all 'struggling souls'

These are all opinions. Some people hold the opinion that money can be a barrier to spiritual progress and there are many stories of masters who remained poor. Kabir and Ravidas, to give a few examples. Again, just to clarify - "money can be a barrier" is also an opinion.

"none of us is entitled to criticize others" is your opinion. Others hold the opinion that they are entitled to criticize others. Both are opinions. Neither is a fact.

"We are all struggling souls" is an opinion. Some people say there is no struggle. Which may be true for them - and is their opinion based on their experience (the glasses they are wearing).

[OshoRobbins]

OPINIONS
A person is DELUDED if he has an opinion (or more than one) that he believes is RIGHT / THE TRUTH when in fact it is not.
A. Person A holds an opinion
B. Person A believes that the opinion is THE TRUTH when in fact it is not
C. Person A is therefore deluded
C is the logical conclusion of A+B.
However, where this gets tricky is:
Who decides what is ”THE TRUTH” and what is not?
People cannot distinguish between (a) a strongly held belief and (b) The truth
A strongly held belief acts as a filter – filtering all incoming data, so all data confirms the belief is true.
Imagine a person wearing RED glasses. Call him Mr Red. A white object will appear to be red – that will be the experience of the person.
Another person is wearing blue glasses (Mr Blue) – so the same object appears blue.
Now make it so they do not realize they are wearing coloured glasses.
They will argue over the colour of the white object and each will have their own personal experience to back up their opinion. Each will think the other is clearly deluded because they will have personal evidence in the form of their own experience.
So now imagine another person comes along who is wearing red glasses. He will AGREE with Mr Red, confirming Mr Red’s opinion to be the truth.
It means nothing when someone else agrees – it only means they are wearing the same colour glasses.
zen story: 3 people go to a zen judge. Person 1 tells his story - the judge says "You are RIGHT" Person 2 tells his version. Judge says "You are RIGHT" to him also.
person 3 points out "they can't both be right!"
the judge says "You are right"

[OshoRobbins]

people massively over-rate their opinions to the point of considering them to be true (facts) and under-rate other people's opinions to the point of considering them untrue.

so to others they will say "that is just your opinion" and dismiss it.

Paul says: Who in this site knows the truth about RSSB ?
the answer is nobody. everyone has their opinion. People argue over opinions. wars are fought over opinions.

believers and non-believers both have opinions. The believer who has faith in God is just expressing his opinion. The atheist who says there is no god is also expressing his opinion. However each will exert that it is a fact or at least that there is strong evidence to support their view.

so the solution of spirituality is: discover the truth for yourself. Forget opinions. Walk the path and 'get there'. So the followers of RSSB are trying to 'get there' (in this case to Sach Khand). The idea being that if you are there - all opinions are irrelevant.

the non-believers are saying that you cannot get there through RSSB, which again can only be an opinion. I also say RSSB is not a valid path to truth - which is my opinion.

If someone gets to Sach khand or enlightenment through RSSB - that would prove my opinion to be incorrect.

So of all the followers of RSSB - if you have got there - or know of anyone who is there - get them to come and comment on here openly.

If you cannot find anyone - surely it is time to review your opinion. Or to hold no opinion on it.

This site is now quite well known to RSSB followers - surely ONE person can come forward.

I have a good friend in RSSB and I asked him to show me one person who has made spiritual progress. He took me to a person who was a RSSB punjabi speaker. I asked the person directly and he said "No, I have only read a lot of scriptures. I have no spiritual progress, but even if I had done it - I would deny it."
on the way out my friend said to me, "see - he has admitted it."

You hear what you want to hear.

[devpaul]

Hi Brian

Thanks for your response. Your following questions itself made many thing clear to me. Yours questions were:
"Have you had the same job all of your life? Have you had only one romantic relationship your entire life? Have you owned just one car, bicycle, or other means of transportation your entire life? Have you ever moved to another house or another town?"
I think there is basic cultural difference in basic understanding of these aspects of life. The society that I belong to, and the way I am brought up, I can tell you that 'yes' I am constant in these relationships. I got married not by love but by family choice and living with same wife for last 25 yrs and had never any extra marital relationship and never thought of. Yes, I do admit that I many times donot have same love for my wife but it is more of a friendship relationship now and spirit of moving in life together and fighting the problems together as well sharing the virtues together. Now for both of us our children are more important, their future and settling in career, marriage etc than romancing with each other. In my society many people carry on same profession through out their life and same is true for me and for my father also. I am in medical profession for past more than 35 yrs now, most of people will not change these all virtues until they are forced to change by circumstances. Even cars and cycles people donot change here just for change. For example my father never had car and used same cycle for 45 yrs (he was postman)and when I got him new, he is no more cycling! I had my second car when its mechanic told me that now it is wise to dump the old one after 15 yrs!(A big surprise for the west, but not for an average Indian). I think it is matter of level of contentment that is sometime given to you by your society, hardship in life and cultural background.
You are right in saying that change is life as in this universe we are in the domain of time and change has to be there. When we are talking about spirituality we are fundamentally aspiring for permanency and rid from this time domain of change. (These are from your book only if you remember) Your all questions are in the domain of mind, just the way mind make us to do change as nothing can satisfy it permanently (again from your book). But at the same time people has control on their mind to different extent depending on their background, cultural and social values. In spritual practice we learn to grow more and more in controlling your own mind (from your book only)
To me now things seems to be somewhat clear about your going away from RSSB. It is different thing to get fascinated by some principles and to really act upon on those principles. I was in west for my medical training for some time and many of my friends used to wonder that how come I am non-alcoholic, non-smoker and vegan. For me it is not a big deal as I was brought up like that,(Jain family) (not that I am RSSB follower) similarly for you it is difficult even to believe that one can stay whole life with one job, one wife and one car because you were brought up differently and was born in different society with different aspects of life.
To be frank let me tell one simple fact to you that if your mind is still not ready to accept the possibility of one profession, one wife and one car for whole of the life; your claim of sincere 35 yrs of RSSB teachings ( I am not aware what they are in fact) practice is not valid. Because true disciples of spirituality start much ahead of it in our culture. You were not even able to convince your mind for these basic simple facts in 35 yrs that are just natural for many of common people like us in our society who donot even follow RSSB teachings!
To be a good human being it is not necessary to be RSSB follower and necessarily all RSSB followers cannot be good human beings. All are struggling souls including me, you and all others here who are participating in discussions. It seems that as long as your ego was pampered by RSSB people by making you a preacher you were their devotee and once they hurt your ego by showing you the door you started this channel to heal you hurt ego by talking negative about them. For a man of your stature who could write such marvelous piece of book it is not expected that you enter into this negativity. Let RSSB suffer their fate, if they are doing wrong they are bound to get result as nature here keeps balance (as per your book only). Why are you becoming part of this mud throwing game as it is making you also low and dirty.
Please donot mind my words as I never thought that an author whom I respected so high can be stooping so low to appease his hurt ego. Once I thought of going to RSSB meetings after being motivated by your book but could not get time or perhaps was not very keen too. Now I have decided to go and see personally to meet these RSSB people and see if they are really as bad as they are projected here, I will make some donations also to verify your claims if they are really messing the wealth or not.
regards
Devpaul

[the9thGate]

OshoRobbins; I must say, I do enjoy reading your thoughts.....Opinions can cause quite a clutter in my mind. My early beliefs were based on the experience of others...looking back; I even discarded by personal experiences in the fear that they would invalidate the beliefs taught to me as a kinder. Feels like I have lots of pieces to various jigsaw puzzles but I can't differentiate which piece belongs to which puzzle because I don't have a picture to use as a template. Where does one start in the de-clutter process?
My personal processor seems to be running hundreds of programmes simultaneously and it's slowing down my overall performance it seems.

[Brian Hines]

devpaul, you admit that life is always changing and impermanent (a core tenet of Buddhism), yet for some reason you say that I, and I assume others, should have only one wife, one car, one profession, and so on, for our entire life.

OK. If that is the way it is done in Indian culture, sometimes at least, you're free to embrace that philosophy. Most people live differently, so I don't think you should be so eager to judge them.

As for judging me... you have your facts wrong. I started writing about RSSB on this blog about a year before I was "fired" as a satsang speaker. This blog is critical of religions, I agree to that. But the only reason I criticize RSSB specifically is because that is the religion I'm most familiar with.

If I had been a Catholic for 35 years, I'd be criticizing Catholicism, and using examples from that religion to show how ridiculous religious beliefs can be.

[the9thGate]

Brian; I think 35 years is more than enough time to devote to a path that doesn't live up to the hype. Had you spent those 35 years dedicating yourself to learning languages; you'd be multi-lingual and your experiences and learnings could be demonstrated and validated by other native speakers. If you had dedicated 35 years to playing piano; I'd have you play in my jazz band. Again you could demonstrate your skills.
Had you dedicated 35 years to bodybuilding, you'd be buff, hopefully no lower back pain and you'd probably have a separate blog about bodybuilding supplementation...again all stuff that we could see and experience.
If, after 35 years, one cannot have a glimpse of the Master's radiant form (which is meant to be the initial step when one goes within) then how long would it have taken to undergo the whole spiritual journey within....more than one lifetime; that's for sure. I believe you made the right choice to step away. I believe you have not stooped low by starting this Blog. If anything; Blogs like this are the natural result of religious cults like RSSB. It just so happens that there are and will continue to be people who change their minds about RSSB and leave....Brian is not the only one....he's just made it easier for ex-satsangi's to talk openly and without shame about their experiences and that type of honesty is priceless in a world where most people are lying to themselves to fit in.
Osho is right to issue the challenge to any satsangi to elucidate their inner experiences ...I truly believe nobody will come forward because all they have is blind faith...the very criticism RSSB makes of other paths.

[observer]

Brian,

"...yet for some reason you say that I, and I assume others, should have only one wife, one car, one profession, and so on, for our entire life"

Where in his comment did devpaul say that others should do this?

You have not only changed in your move away from Sant Mat you no longer have a sense of fairness and you twist people's words to suit your agenda. You are finding fault because your expectations were not satisfied. Very simple. You failed and now you have to find fault.

You very obviously started Sant Mat with a religious mindset, coming from your Christian background. Not everyone does this but you and your commenters put all satsangis into the same category. It is possible to be a satsangi and not have a religious attitude. Remember balance, middle of the road? Like you used to think. Now you've lost your balance and become too extreme.

It is about your ego because 'science' is the new religion. Why? Because people see scientists as being the very clever people. So now science, the new religion, is preaching that there's nothing else but the brain and you are falling for it because it makes YOU seem so very intelligent. You've gone from one extreme to the other.

[Brian Hines]

observer, here's what devpaul said in his comment above. I accept your apology. Maybe you didn't read his entire comment before criticizing my response to it.

------------

..."for you it is difficult even to believe that one can stay whole life with one job, one wife and one car because you were brought up differently and was born in different society with different aspects of life.

To be frank let me tell one simple fact to you that if your mind is still not ready to accept the possibility of one profession, one wife and one car for whole of the life; your claim of sincere 35 yrs of RSSB teachings ( I am not aware what they are in fact) practice is not valid."

[observer]

Brian, I reacted to that word 'should' as in when you said "I, and I assume others, should..."

This part from devpaul... "if your mind is still not ready to accept the possibility of one profession, one wife and one car for whole of the life"... Well, certainly shows the difference in cultural upbringing and why we in the West find the meditative lifestyle of Sant Mat more difficult.

[Brian Hines]

observer, understood. But look: communication happens not only in intellectually analyzable words. It happens in the whole context of what someone says in speech or in writing (or non-verbally).

It is clear that this Indian man considers it a failing of mine, and by extension, others, that I haven't had one wife, one car, one job, etc. for my entire life. Or at least, that I don't see this "one thing" philosophy as both possible and desirable, an alternative to our Western craving for more, more, more.

I might write a blog post on this subject today. I

[devpaul]

Hi Brian
I am not follower of RSSB. However, the little that I understand of meditation and spirituality means for me to avoid spreading our mind outside in world and worldly pleasure and to concentrate it within. It is control of mind only to limit your needs and be satisfied with minimum. Sometimes this training is imparted to the mind from the cultural background and such people will have to restrain their mind from other outwardly tendencies of mind. In some cultures where already the mind is trained to go maximum outwardly from the childhood it will be more effort requiring process to concentrate within and what to say about 35 yrs of practice but even one whole life may not be enough. One may take another birth with more concentrated mind with less spread outwardly due to his previous efforts and may start his journey from there ahead if destined to do so. (this is if reincarnation is believed) Every way of life has its own strengths and drawbacks; however, one may try how so ever hard to get peace in world, that is not going to be permanent here due to its changing nature. Those who aspire for liberation from this world, one thing that is logically sure is that they will indulge least in this world. If you had practiced 35yrs of RSSB faith with aim of liberation, you should have understood what I meant by single wife, single job etc, just to signify to limit our worldly indulgence. You can not talk about maximum worldly indulgence of mental pleasures and at same time of sincere meditation for 35yrs. If you are satisfied with one profession, doing same thing repeatedly throughout life, it is also one type of meditation only and making our mind's ability to concentrate more only. I donot know what type of meditation you learned from RSSB that you talk of more indulgence in world and at the same time doing sincere meditation also. Keeping pledges of life long sincerity to wife at the time of marriage (that are taken in christian marriage also) is also big meditation and control of mind when you loose love for you wife but still continue your relationship sincerely considering it as a test of your pledge.
I think Brian it is high time for you to just sit alone and do some introspection and try to find out why you failed in meditation. This I am telling you from my worldly experience. As I mentioned I am in medical profession. Whenever I have failed in any procedure and blamed patients, equipment or supporting staff for it, I never improved upon and was always stuck in that again. Whenever, I just blamed my self and tried sincerely to find out the reasons, I could find some way to do it successfully next time even overcoming the shortcomings of equipment and supporting staff.
You are more intelligent, knowledgeable in spirituality than me. I have seen people in misery and pain only as no one happy comes to us. So one thing is sure to me that world is definitely not a place where you will get lasting peace. I have seen misery in west where medical treatment is so advanced, but let me tell you sometimes these advancements make people's suffering more worse than death.
So just do some more introspection with cool mind forgetting soreness of RSSB and come out with some positive thought that are more useful to people like us who are still far behind on this path
regards
devpaul

[the9thGate]

It would be nice if you could get everything right the first time but that's not usually how people learn, grow, adapt and improve in life. I understand that there are many on here that want to find a set of core values that one can hold on to and not deviate too far from...but should not the very core values and beliefs be up for retrospection, evaluation, argued, reasoned, scrutinized...is that not a part of self-improvement?
Is liberation from this world really the solution to everyone's woes or is this a persons way to come to terms with their mortality?

[Paul]

Osho, YES. Can we get past the 'fact' that whatever I say is also an opinion? I agree with you! We all speak from our experience, and also on hearsay (or imagination). My experience with a GIF will also be different from yours.

Now does my opinion or your opinion in any sense truthfully define whether a GIF actually is possible and exists, and whether GSD is a GIH? Not in the least.

And yet, we continue to whine and complain about what GSD did, and whether he did this right, or he did that wrong. As if it really matters in the least.

The point is... I can have a grudge against GSD. And I need to be extremely clever not to let anyone notice it. In this site, it is evident there are many grudges against GSD. There are also other people who speak positively about him. Both are speaking from their experience (or imagination or hearsay). And both can make any opinions. But these opinions do not in the least change anything.

(And yes, this is also an opinion. No need to go back to that. :) )

[cc]

So one thing is sure to me that world is definitely not a place where you will get lasting peace.

There's no such thing as "lasting peace", or lasting anything, for that matter. Nothing lasts. Everything has its own duration. Life is a dynamic process - nothing about it is static.

Religion is based on the notion of eternity and everlasting this or that, which is mindless nonsense. If you pay attention to what living actually is you'll find that it's all change, contrast, creation, variation, deterioration, innovation, improvisation, randomness, birth and death. Religion is resistance to all this. Religion is resistance to life.

[observer]

Tara,

You say re GSD's business activities "a heady mix of business ambition and soul-travel ambition cannot co-exist". Also "Yes, GSD is a brilliant administrator and strategist".

As an initiate and born overseas I don't see anything wrong with GSD using his wealth which as you say was "funded by extended family members" to visit the many overseas satsangis, some of whom cannot afford to visit India.

As an Indian born into a satsangi family, I can see how your traditional upbringing regarding as you call it "soul-travel ambition" clashes with what you are perceiving as worldly ambition on this so called spiritual path.

Can you see how our different cultural conditioning affects our expectations, opinions and judgments of GSD?

[Moongoes]

The only concern of mine in this debates now is...
WHERE TARA AT?
WHERE tAo AT?

My Bests from this site although they both know i still meditate according to shabd technique...blah blah anyway i get alllong with these kind of guys best

Love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0TlPG85xk8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Moongoes]

Oh yes and to all of you rich people out there who have a few dollars or euros more ,..., you can give it to me some and i would gladly took it,.Cause i was ascetic till now but now i would really took it you know like hobo or homeless guy with no pay back or rent or credit like, just i would get money from rich person and that is it and he or she would be happy and i would be happy, that simple, no philosophy who was the giver or receivier, no just oneness , happiness on both sides!
So
200 000€ would be perfect,..i would socially looking live with this for a decade
100 000€ would still be great and i could buy instrument and practice further my art..
50 000€ would still be great and would paid my credit for small house which i needed to get money for material and i worked with my hands on many works on my house but i still have 7years to pay back and is seriously disturbing my instrument practice. So any rich people out there here is somebody who would you made him a great ....
Your moon

[the9thGate]

Observer, in the post entitled 'The various delusions of Sant Mat' you wrote "I follow my path in my own way. I've learned from my experiences with Sant Mat and keep what resonates with me and let go of whatever doesn't." That's cool yo but it just means your version of Sant Mat is very unique to you, personal almost because you are picking and choosing what resonates with you. GSD may joke that you are trying to create your own franchise of RSSB. He may even joke that you are not a bona fide Gurmukh.
I think you are wrong to pin Tara's opinion solely on cultural conditioning....she is only referring back to the satsangs, published books of previous Masters who allegedly spoke of ultimate, esoteric truth unaffected by the domain of time. Truth that could stand the test of time. That is how the RSSB dogma has been presented. You also wrote
"I now look back on and see as romantic, magical thinking, and although those teachings totally suited my way of thinking back then, they are no longer relevant"...if they are not relevant now then they were never immortal truths were they and therefore Charan, Sawan, Jagat Singh etc were all liars...GSD has said so much too as you said in your words "Doesn't GSD says forget the books?"
There may come a day where GSD's words are no longer relevant and his successor will change things around too....then GSD devotees will accuse the successor of being a liar.
By logic; none of the Masters...none of them have any eternal truth to offer...
Masters lay out a guideline on what it takes to be a Gurmukh. During initiation the gurmukh makes vows..now yourself being more lax compared to the textbook Gurmukh...if you felt one of the vows didn't resonate with you e.g. eating meat; would you drop it and still call yourself a Gurmukh?
Gurmukhs are also meant to shun materialism and wealth according to the SantMat advocated by most Masters and I think that is Tara's point. Gurinder did what you did i.e. he kept what resonated with him and let go of everything else.
Personally; that's cool with me. Personally; I have no beef with GSD having dollar but one thing is obvious...his path is subject to change and is therefore, what old-school peeps would say, a product of Maya. The crux here is GSD and previous Masters cannot both be right....so somebody was telling porky's.
You've accused Brian of having an agenda...fair enough...but you could be seen to have an agenda too...the agenda to prove that Brian failed as a satsangi.
Enclosing; All this can be snubbed with the opinion argument....the argument that truth is subjective...fair enough but if we are all honest with ourselves I am sure most of us took an interest in RSSB because we were seekers of truth and were looking for undeniable truth. The Masters said that the Sant Mat path was that path...it's all documented. They even said it is not a path of blind faith and that one could see the truth of the afterlife in this life...i.e. die whilst living. Bold claims.....according to GSD; it turns out the words of the previous Masters were just mumbo jumbo.
Some things in life cannot be argued e.g. if Iron Mike Tyson were to punch somebody in the face; he would cause severe damage to that person. No difference of opinion needed, no subjective slant necessary...the truth would be painful...hard hitting truth. RSSB doesn't offer this kind of truth....if it did...we'd all be out in the first round.

[OshoRobbins]

Devpaul wrote:
"I think Brian it is high time for you to just sit alone and do some introspection and try to find out why you failed in meditation."

Devpaul, it is a huge assumption that Brian has failed in meditation. He has not failed. He has simply realized that RSSB is no longer appropriate for him and he left. That is progress.
If you no longer feel love for your wife, would you leave or stay? How is staying a better choice? Leaving would be more authentic, more honest and it would mean you are no longer living a lie.
If you stayed, would you tell her you don't love her anymore and are just tolerating her?

The Buddha was seeking for many years. He did not find. Read his story. He utterly failed. He found nothing. He gave up trying, seeking. That was when he woke up and experienced what he later called Nirvana. His whole teaching was that there is nothing to seek. Nirvana is emptiness - the end of seeking.

[dep paul]

Hi everyone
There are few permanent things here like the natural laws. Common sense dictates though everything is changing, these basic laws are not changing nor going to change till this creation is going to exist. e.g gravitation force, particle anti-partical laws, basic quantum physics laws, law of action and reaction, law of conservation of energy, and even the laws that are deciding the changing nature of this creation! So if someone is desiring for permanency of his consciousness it can not be totally stupid and impossible. It might be question of switching sides for the consciousness from something that is constant to something that is changing.
One interesting finding came to my notice about a true master and that is that once you get initiated from a true master, you may get astray but true master does not leave you. Jesus says that he takes care of his every sheep that goes astray and put more efforts for that sheep to make sure that she also reach to the Father. Let's see what happens to Brian and how he continues in his journey. Thanks Brian and keep positing experiences about your self.
Regards to
everyone here

[observer]

9thGate,

"GSD may joke that you are trying to create your own franchise of RSSB. He may even joke that you are not a bona fide Gurmukh.

I am not and have no desire to be a gurmukh. Talk about setting oneself up for a fall!

"I think you are wrong to pin Tara's opinion solely on cultural conditioning"

Not trying to pin anything, just pointing out the differences between social and cultural conditioning. This is what I said - note the question mark: - "Can you see how our different cultural conditioning affects our expectations, opinions and judgments of GSD?"

As to my words you quote from: "The stories were for the mindset that people had in those times. I know this because this is the mindset that I had, which I now look back on and see as romantic, magical thinking, and although those teachings totally suited my way of thinking back then, they are no longer relevant."

You say, "if they are not relevant now then they were never immortal truths were they and therefore Charan, Sawan, Jagat Singh etc were all liars."

Sorry, I thought it was clear when I said "this is the mindset that I had". Obviously I should have pointed out more clearly that those stories are no longer relevant "to me".

You say, "...we were seekers of truth and were looking for undeniable truth"

Whats to stop you from continuing to look for truth? Finding your own truth in your own way?

I stick to the four principles, no big deal, and I will continue to question with an open mind, being non-religious and an alternative type satsangi. Whats wrong with that?

[Mike Williams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zblTCsThDE

God Does Not Exist - Stephen Hawking
shocking 1 1/2 minute video.

[june schlebusch]

cc You seem to be quoting the book of Ecclesiates ,not the words but the content...The Path of Sant Mat if followed diligently will take you within..The sound current is real...The problem and the big question when that withdrawal happenings...Is Where am I now..Then discernment becomes necessary...That for me is what I seek by coming to this forum...Each of you seem to have a piece of the puzzle....A very interesting, informative read indeed.

[Mike Williams]

"Where am I now"
quote June

The question is not where, but what
I am now. The I, cannot be found,
only experiencing can be found.
Non personal.

The collective unconsciousness is
found in meditation. It filters
through your brain, (even if it is
a field).

The field is a universal of all
possibilities and all archetypes.
it is holographic to your brain.

[june schlebusch]

Mike I have just finished reading the crit of Kaufmann's on "The Gay Scientist" I cannot praise it as it is to close to home..I came across Nietzsche in the 60tys..I found him so sad and interlectual that I thought Ag I'll just meditate..He reminds me of Keats' La Bella Sans Merci knight alone on the cold heel side, where no birds sing....I loaded Hermann Hess's Glass Bead Game a few weeks ago for a reread,and Wagner has always been one of my favourite composers....Part of the collective don't you think.

[Mike Williams]

Hi June,
Don't know who Kaufmann is.

There is a great isunderstanding about
surat shaba yoga.

It blows your subconscious into your conscious
mind. All the gods and demons and inner planes
are all dellusional aspects of the sub
conscious.

A person like Brian who does not see anything
is actually very advanced. Because, at the end
of the kundalini journey, you have the consciousness of an ordinary person, except
your subconscious delusions are gone.

Sant mat people are unaware, the most advanced
persons do not experience anything. It
is only the neophytes who see the inner garbage.

[Mike Williams]

The Truth About Inner Visions

Every try to pin down someone claiming
to have inner experience ? Notice how
they vanish when you question them ?

Anyone who can actually access the
"inside" knows it is not real. THEY
KNOW THIS FOR A FACT. They know it
is all subconscious nonsense.

They can pretend it is real, BUT THEY
KNOW THIS IS A LIE.

The inner journey is a fraud as pronounced
by sant mat. Halucinations.

A realized person has no deceptions from
the inner planes.

These are silly delusions.

Child's play.

And, these people know right away it
is bogus. It does not take days or
years.

If anyone tells you it is real....
THEY HAVE'T BEEN THERE.

[Mike Williams]

The Truth About Inner Visions

Every try to pin down someone claiming
to have inner experience ? Notice how
they vanish when you question them ?

Anyone who can actually access the
"inside" knows it is not real. THEY
KNOW THIS FOR A FACT. They know it
is all subconscious nonsense.

They can pretend it is real, BUT THEY
KNOW THIS IS A LIE.

The inner journey is a fraud as pronounced
by sant mat. Halucinations.

A realized person has no deceptions from
the inner planes.

These are silly delusions.

Child's play.

And, these people know right away it
is bogus. It does not take days or
years.

If anyone tells you it is real....
THEY HAVE'T BEEN THERE.

[june schlebusch]

Mike on the 18th you had a comment about "The Gay Scientist" I wanted to know more so I Googled it. Walter Kaufmann did a translation and a commentary on it...I have also just finished watching :What The Bleep Do We Know: Which you also recommended...I enjoyed it and found it meaningful, also quite personal as some of the effects were from Cape Town my home town....I don,t quite understand you .

[Mike Williams]

Hi June,

OK, gay science, was in reference to Nietzsche's eternal return. Did recommend What the Bleep do We Know.
And M Theory, quantum physics solution
to the theory of everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ds47ozzSrU

I was relating Nietsche's eternal return
to Gurdjieff Ouspensky's, which are different slightly in theory.

M Theory opens the door on eternal return
according to Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.

I do not believe we die and never come back.
I believe when we die we go back to what
we were before we came here.

And, it is a conscious state.

[Nietzsche]

Hi don't want to push this but if someone is genuine interested in science that is far ahead of our time please look into this. Some speculation but lots of things are correct. Tesla said 'now Einstein is right but in the future I will be right again'. I even think that with a wrong foundation of modern science on misunderstanding Maxwell, the whole bottom falls out of our intellectual building. Even Quantum physics is totally wrong. Nature is simpel only to the truthful scientist. I have studied physics (and Nietzsche :))
http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/04/teslas_creative_genius_intuiti.html

[Mike Williams]

hi nietzsche,

I am a big fan of Tesla
and have seen all his biographies.

He met Vivekananda.

He went into depression for a year
when his favorite pigeon died, at
the park he went to everyday.

[Nietzsche]

He finaly someone who likes Tesla I started to feel alone. When you dive into the history of science I found big discoveries are being suppressed because they violate accepted laws. Rife worked out a microscope that violated the laws of quantum uncertainty. He could looke deeper with optics than possible with Maxwells equations. So he cured cancer with his devices totaly based on Tesla. Numerous people testified for him in court but they broke him and his microscope is only in a museum somewhere. Tesla was ridiculed. People want to escape their emotions and feeling with mathematics. The truth is not that complicated but we can not handel all the emotions yet to become emotional rich people that do understand nature. We rather are suppressive mental people in a fantasy world of the mind. Ego?
Do you think we are robbed emotionaly by other species? I get this information over and over again. The most truthfull high standing people rich in feeling are used as energy resource. Frightening stuff.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Nietzsche,
My degree is in accounting and I have had
all the math classes including 3 in calculus.
Quantitative analysis. I was
the person whom discovered interdimensional
cycles two decades ago and was asked to be
the vice president for the
Foundation for the Study of Cycles when they were in Irvine long ago. I declined the offer.

Right here on this club I predicted the top
in gold at $1920 in the access markets just
hours after it occurred.

These cycles perfectly predict any market
in any time frame, from micro to macro.

I had the top astrological programer
in the world produce the computer program.
He lived in Canada then.

Much of my life has been spent in scientific
research of the financial markets for price
and time. All of my research is totally
unique.

I was not born a genius, but unfortunately
a savant idiot. I cannot figure out how
to do simple things. I cannot understand
people. I do stupid things every day.

The things that interest me, most people
have no idea even exist.

As each day goes on, I realize more and more
just how stupid I am.

I go to a small deli and have a 3 cheese sandwich and a pitcher of beer.

The owner and his son know not to say hello
to me and pretend they don't know me. I don't like people to recognise me.

I sit in the deli and stare at the wall
as I do mathematical equations in my head.

No one says a word to me.

I have not seen my wife's parents since
1978 and they only live a few miles away.

No one ever sees me. There are no photos of me except one my wife hides, so I won't tear it up.

Happiness to me is being invisible to the world and absolutely unknown.

[june schlebusch]

Hi Mike and Nietzsche, dear friends..I to love Tesla, the poor man was so ridiculed and lost out because of the bankers re The Hoover Dam Project....But most of this goes beyond my capabilities to comprehend...I have very little formal education and as you can see my English is not the best....I only feel what people say....However Mike you did, a long time ago, encourage..Those that were bashful to come forward....I to went through life wanting :Not to be Seen: I had to....Men only wanted to shag me, but now that I,m that I,m an old lady, it no longer matters...I grew up in the Cape Penisula and the ocean currents that circle it were not the Indian and Atlantic oceans...They were currents in my mind...And Table Mountain that cast its shadow over me was The Last Supper along with the 12 apostles (In the mountain range they are actually called that)...When my mother read me the poem, The Peg Top, I was that top spinning in space.....I used to walk on tip tow as a child as I did not feel the world was solid...I was afraid I,d fall thro and land up in China....I don,t know what all this means but I don,t think all my NDE are and illusion..I don,t have visions, But I do withdraw...Where to I don,t know, And as to Who or What I am ..I know even less.

[Nietzsche]

Happiness to me is being invisible to the world and absolutely unknown.
I also like the three sandwiches :) Tesla did everything in three ;)

It is my understanding that Tesla made his complete inventions in his head and did not have to test them. But he was very intuitive in that. If the invention did not run or was not sharp he changed stuff in his head until it was right. That way he did not have to experiment a lot. But at Colorado springs he did experiment a lot and that is a clue to how complicated his magnifying transformer is. There are a few notes but little equations. According to Vassilatos, who studied a lot of forgotten inventors talked to their neighbours read their patents etc. , this magnifying transformer was all about resonating with the energy of the sun ( not the energy currently known but Tesla's radiant matter) and magnifying and redirecting it. That was a huge amount of energy and you could split or fly planets with it ;) Little is known. Tesla abandoned the project at Wardencliff and it is rumoured that that was because his loved pigeon died and when she died a light appeared telling him to abandon the project because mankind was not ready.
So Tesla kept telling that some time in the future he would tell more but that never happened. He ended in solitude.
Not much fame and money for the true inventors and discoverers of our age. We are left with stone age technology because we keep making war and keep acting stupid to each other.
Did I tell you about the inventor Otis Car (I really am not sure if he is a disinformant or a true inventor) but his story was that his machine resonated on a different frequency than the appearance and disappearance of this earth sun gravity system and he could detach from place and time and appear on another place or time with it. This world seems to be a timeless universe that has a certain frequency of appearance. We all appear together. With his coworker that is still telling the story on the internet he travelled to a place a 10 miles away and when they reappeared the co worker said well it is a shame it did not work. But Otis said look in your pockets. Your mind can not remember the travel but his pockets where filled with dirt and things from that place 10 miles away and they where spotted there.
But we, we are left with a total misunderstanding of time and space keeping us from discovering more. I will probable disappear into oblivion soon too or else it is getting to hot out here. To me this inventing is a way to discover the machine I am. I am now doing my healing of mental virus cycle and I feel better than ever. No more fear or depressions. It simple works.

I hear you ;)

[Nietzsche]

Try this!
http://tschinka.wordpress.com/2012/09/25/ralph-ring-and-levitation/

[observer]

Tara,

Obviously touched a raw nerve with the mention of traditional upbringing. Geez I've always looked upon the Indian satsangi families with awe and wonder.

As to the change in Sant Mat, looking into the future, probably not that long down the line, it will become another religion. Get over it. Who cares. There are already so many wannabe gurus preaching a new version of RSSB.

[the9thGate]

Hey Tara. Nice to read you again. I don't think Observer quite gets what you are trying to say or the implications of infallible truth being grossly fallible by a person who is considered to be GIHF...it may be because he has his own version Sant Mat Kit Kat 420 chillax edition.

2013 was all about Jungle Boogie...2014 has started with a waltz...How has your 2014 been thus far?
Next time you come to the u.k we need to meet for that coffee remember? For you....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbQVy3ZzmXA

[Moongoes]

This is the right place where people are telling what is right or wrong but the worst thing is when they try to force it on others cause they are weak of not doing it by their own selves and that is LIVING THE LIFE that is why i salute the critics! And for pussies and strict aristocratic form muthafakaz and muthafukiez this is the satsang you should listen to it daily.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWACCWBzAmc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Mike Williams]

The Obsidian Stone

The black magician stares into a shinny
black stone and uses encantations to demons
by name. The demons face appears in the stone and guides their life.

The Radhasoami stares into blackness and
uses encantations. The master appears
and guides their life.

Both appeal to Ankar, Ra Ran Kar, Kal, Satan....... by name.

The Radhasoami signs his name on the initiation form and gives his life to
Lucifer.

Had he been made to sign it in blood,
he may have realized .. what he had just
done.

[the9thGate]

Moongoes...loving the c.t. fletcher stuff....guess you don't believe in over-training :-)more power to ya!
I am more of Mike Mentzer man...I go to failure....story of my life.
Mike; I would feel honoured to sit and have a beer with you and a spot of chess. Everybody who has nothing to say wants to make a music video swinging, naked, on a wrecking ball.
Anybody that has anything interesting to share wants to be invisible. Life is weird like that.
I consider my contract with Lucifer null and void. I was already in hell before I signed it...they lied you know; it's not hot in hell at all...it's cold and bloody windy.

[Nietzsche]

@Tara nice! Makes me think that if Gurinder is making a new version of RSSB than that implies he is wrong. The truth is old, very very old ;)

Mike what you say I was also wondering how do we know if this sant math is good or bad at all? We take it on faith. We might be mislead?
Frightening thought. How do I get that matra out of my head :) Any tips?

[Moongoes]

Th9thgate Ct is all in overtraining you just watch other videos and see but i am more into old scool guys like Maxick and old golden era.

But why Ct that i put on is because he is a straigjt shooter ready to work non pussy power great heart nice man.

[observer]

Tara you say "Truth transcends time, it doesn't need an upgrade."

Much talk about 'truth' here and how GSD has changed this 'truth'.

This is from Sawan Singh "The truth lies within you, within everybody. Without that truth, we could not live for a second. If we could hold our attention in the eye focus, our attention would then be able to grasp the truth. So long as the attention is scattered in the body or out of the body in the world outside, our face is turned away from truth. No matter how much progress, individual or national, we might make in the outside world, we are not a jot nearer the truth."

This has always been the most important and fundamental message in Sant Mat and I don't think GSD has changed this at all.

I guess the message is that we can't preach about 'truth' unless we have gone within and found it for ourselves.

[Mike Williams]

We take it on faith. We might be mislead?
Frightening thought.
I consider my contract with Lucifer null and void.
quote Nietzsche and 9th Gate.

It is a question I have asked myself.
Can we get out of the contract with
Lucifer we signed ? They would say
the Guru never leaves you.

It matters not if you were tricked into
the contract according to exorcists.

I do not know if there is a way out of
the contract.

If I knew how, I would tell you.

[observer]

Mike Williams,

Once again, how do you know you are right? You see the Master of the RSSB line as being Lucifer? Well thats your opinion. How can you prove this. We all have to find out for ourselves. Why should I listen to your opinion against the Master's?

Maybe you are in fact an agent of Lucifer (or Kal as I call the negative power). How will anyone ever know? Some people might trust you and your opinions, I tend to use my instinct and intuition and I question whether your stance against RSSB is because you were denied initiation. You probably will say otherwise but like I say, this is entirely my own intuition and I don't trust you to tell the truth.

You say "It matters not if you were tricked into the contract according to exorcists."

No-one is tricked or forced into the path of Sant Mat. We all make our own choices. If I make a wrong choice in life, I can then choose to extricate myself, without putting blame on others because blame is a denial of one's own power of choice.

[Mike Williams]

"Maybe you are in fact an agent of Lucifer (or Kal as I call the negative power)."
quote observer

Well, I have been initiated by half dozen Radhasoami masters.
And, many more.

FACT
Om Kar, Ra Ran Kar, are Kal and Maha Kal.

When you repeat the 5 names you are invoking them to come
inside you.

I congratulate you on your success.

Oh....by the way..... how many of them are in you ?

Legions ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CykNAYQ8hXY

[Moongoes]

I miss my Friend!
For Tara!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-P8p40FSbk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[cc]

It's ironic that this blog, which came about as a result of Brian's rejection of this Gurinder guy and all his guru nonsense, has become the place for devotees to congregate and compare notes. What a bore!