"Dirty money" tied to RSSB guru's Ranbaxy wealth

Like I said in this post, there's a tangled web of financial dealings surrounding the newfound wealth of Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family. 

Gurinder Singh is the current guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, an India-based spiritual organization I used to be a member of.

Theologically, he is considered to be "god in human form."

Financially, his family has become one of the richest in India, thanks to gifting of Religare stock by several relatives (and RSSB initiates), Malvinder and Shivinder Singh. Another post of mine describes the money connections between Religare and the guru.

Religare is a company that Malvinder and Shivinder Singh invested heavily in after selling their stake in Ranbaxy, a pharmaceutical company. So the money gifted to the guru and his family is rooted in previous Ranbaxy holdings.

Wikipedia describes the involvement of Malvinder Singh with Ranbaxy:

Malvinder Mohan Singh is a former Chairman and CEO of Ranbaxy Laboratories, an Indian unit of Japanese drugmaker Daiichi Sankyo, who resigned in 2009 after Ranbaxy posted losses and after Daiichi Sankyo decided to get more actively involved in the newly acquired Indian unit.^[1] He is the grandson of Bhai Mohan Singh, the founder of Ranbaxy. He and his brother Shivinder Singh, who in 1999 upon the death of their father inherited their family's 33.5% stake in Ranbaxy, are among the twenty richest Indians.

...Malvinder Singh's tenure as CEO of Ranbaxy starting in 2006 is controversial. Corporate culture of fraud continued unchecked under his tenure. In November 2006, Malvinder Singh led a delegation to FDA headquarters to try to reverse the decision to accept new drug applications from Ranbaxy.

This attempt failed as FDA asked Ranbaxy to turn over audits done by its outside consultant, Parexel, which the company was claiming were confidential. The meeting ended in a standoff. Soon thereafter Mr. Singh decided to cash in. On June 11, 2008, Singh stunned the Indian business world by announcing that he and his brother were selling their 34% stake in Ranbaxy to the Japanese drugmaker Daiichi Sankyo for $2 billion.

That phrase, "corporate culture of fraud," is much elaborated on in a lengthy May 15, 2013 CNN Money story, Dirty Medicine: The epic inside story story of long-term criminal fraud at Ranbaxy, the Indian drug company that makes generic Lipitor for millions of Americans.

What Thakur unearthed over the next months would form some of the most devastating allegations ever made about the conduct of a drug company. His information would lead Ranbaxy into a multiyear regulatory battle with the FDA, and into the crosshairs of a Justice Department investigation that, almost nine years later, has finally come to a resolution.

On May 13, Ranbaxy pleaded guilty to seven federal criminal counts of selling adulterated drugs with intent to defraud, failing to report that its drugs didn't meet specifications, and making intentionally false statements to the government. Ranbaxy agreed to pay $500 million in fines, forfeitures, and penalties -- the most ever levied against a generic-drug company. 

As noted in the Wikipedia article, Malvinder Singh (the guru's nephew, I'm pretty sure) became CEO of Ranbaxy in 2006. Another CNN Money story says: 

Ranbaxy has been grappling with quality issues for years. In 2008, the Food & Drug Administration took a highly unusual step, barring the importation of 30 drugs from two of Ranbaxy's plants in India. The FDA slapped the company with what's called an "Application Integrity Policy," halting the review of new drug applications from one of the company's Indian facilities until Ranbaxy proved its truthfulness.

Which, of course, it wasn't able to do. Ranbaxy was permeated by sleazy corporate policies aimed at making more money by avoiding drug safety and testing requirements. The details are laid out in Dirty Medicine.

I find this Ranbaxy story fascinating for several reasons. As noted before, my involvement with Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) began in the days of a previous guru, Charan Singh, who was scrupulous about not mixing spirituality with money-making. 

So far as I know, Charan Singh lived completely off of his own earnings, never mixing up his RSSB gurudom and personal financial dealings. Gurinder Singh, the current guru, operates much differently.

In a previous post I quoted an Indian blogger who referred to Gurinder Singh's early involvement with Ranbaxy :

For instance, the patriarch of the Radha Soami sect headquartered at Beas (he is also called the Beas Sant or the saint of Beas) is reported to have played his role in the succession drama at Ranbaxy after the death of then CEO and promoter Parvinder Singh in 1999.

I readily admit that few large corporations are ethically impeccable.

Making lots of money usually requires cutting some moral corners. But traditionally Indian spiritual leaders have stood apart from this "dark side" of modern culture, pointing to a way of living that elevates direct experience of divinity above material concerns/desires.

In that light, here's another excerpt from the Dirty Medicine story:

In January 2006, Malvinder Singh, the founder's grandson, succeeded Brian Tempest as Ranbaxy's managing director and CEO. At 33, with an MBA from Duke University, Singh was brash and competitive. The Indian business press dubbed him the Pharaoh of Pharma, and hailed him as an "out-of-the-box decision-maker."

Others viewed Singh as petulant and immature. "I want profit!" he would yell in meetings, two former employees recall. Among the staff, he was known for being preoccupied with his ranking on the Forbes list of India's 40 richest people. When he and his brother Shivinder fell from No. 9 in 2004 to No. 19 in 2005, despite $1.6 billion in assets, Singh seemed to blame the decline on a lack of employee loyalty, a former employee recalls.

Shows that even if "god in human form" is your uncle, enlightenment and detachment from worldly concerns can be far away. 

Comments

[Sudeep]

So what does it prove ?

Spiritual practice is a personal journey. Having access to Guru, being relative to HIM doesnt make one enlightened. Everyone has his own Spiritual level.

Had it been true, You would have already benefitted Spiritualy from your access to Maharaj Charan Singh. But Alas. :D

[Brian Hines]

Sudeep, so what makes you think that I didn't benefit spiritually from my initiation by Charan Singh? How are you able to judge how the 35 years or more of daily meditation and much volunteer seva affected me?

[Sandra]

Tara,
thank you for pointing to animal testing - I didn't think of that - it's common practice in the pharma-industry.

Oh yes, but beware of every small particle of meat or egg in the food!

The whole gurudom is outrageous.
Shame on these greedy and hypocritical ego-maniacs!

Tara, you've got it with this statement
"Those who can see through RSSB, through the wealth that surrounds the Guru, through and through the contradictions, financial debauchery and the sheer lack of spirituality ... they are the chosen ones, the enlightened ones ... and, that in itself is beneficial to lead a life of guilt-free pleasure and fearless love."

What could be better!

[cc]

"It was the Guru's decision to sell Ranbaxy and...the company sold at three times of what it really should have been valued at."

Proof that he was, indeed, enlightened

[cc]

"So, animal testing is allowed, but a muffin isn't?"

The muffin is just a McGuffin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin

[just me]

Charan's daughter married a billionaire and her husband offered shares in his company to her relatives, such as Gurinder (Charan's nephew) and Gurinder's sons. A family business. Big whoop!

There are many very wealthy satsangis. In India some Rajas and Ranis were initiated into RSSB. There are the extremely poor and also very rich people amongst satsangis. Karma anyone?

So you don't believe in karma any more, well then what about randomness, whoever gets whatever, in life.

All this commotion looks a lot like jealousy to me. Why so bitter? Didn't quite make it into Gurinder's inner circle perhaps.

[Skeptic]

Re animal testing... I'm sure RS cult followers would rationalize by saying that you can eat or kill animals if there is a strong health-related reason, like if you had no choice but to take a gel cap.

[Brian Hines]

Just me, I sense some projecting on your part. You seem to be confusing me with someone else.

I'm not bitter. As I have noted before, leaving a religious organization is a lot like divorce (marital variety). I loved both Radha Soami Satsang Beas and my first wife before we parted ways.

There's no bitterness either about my 35+ association with RSSB, or my 18 year first marriage. In each case, there was a mutual decision that things weren't working out.

With RSSB, officials of the organization said that my postings on this blog were making some people (them, I assume) uncomfortable. I was given a choice between continuing to share my ideas on this blog, or continuing as a RSSB speaker.

Sure, with both "divorces" there were uncomfortable feelings early on For a long time I was attached both to RSSB and my first wife. It takes a while to get one's moorings after familiar foundations are left behind.

But change often (or usually is good). I'm happier now. I feel more genuinely spiritual now -- even though I'm not really sure what they word means.

Lastly, I don't go looking for news about Gurinder Singh and Radha Soami Satsang Beas. When people email me news links, or such, I take a look at what they've sent. If it seems interesting, I write a blog post about it.

Someone else dug up the recent news stories about Religare and Ranbaxy, not me.

[just me]

Brian,

I should have made it more clear that its some comments (the ones that seem quite bitter) that make me feel like posting. Just to show the other side's point of view.

I read your blog because I am churchless and I know you are fair in your approach and I do try not to be too confrontational!

I like what you say here and agree "But change often (or usually is good). I'm happier now. I feel more genuinely spiritual now -- even though I'm not really sure what they word means."

Constantly seeking balance in all things...

[Brian Hines]

just me, thanks for the clarification. Guess you confused me when you defended the guru becoming super rich via business dealings with satsangis.

I don't think this is appropriate, given that the guru is supposed to be "god in human form" who was sent by the Lord to take souls out of this material realm of illusion.

Probably shouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that you were lumping me in with other commenters on this post. (Of course, I was one of the commenters.) Hope you can see why I did, though.

[cc]

Look at it this way: you see there's a bunch of credulous, gullible people with money who want desperately to be told what to do and how to do it, and you see that no one is exploiting this resource. Tell me you wouldn't tap that.

[just me]

Brian,

You say in your post above "I don't go looking for news about Gurinder Singh and Radha Soami Satsang Beas. When people email me news links, or such, I take a look at what they've sent. If it seems interesting, I write a blog post about it."

Now it seems obvious that you not only found it interesting but you also are identifying with the commenters who are angry with the fact that the current guru is rich because of his business dealings.

I don't understand this mindset. Its a family business. Why would this make him less spiritual? Money is evil? Sounds very churchy to me.

Looks like you had too many expectations which were not fulfilled because you are now sounding sarcastic and bitter.

[Brian Hines]

Just me, allow me to repeat: I'm not bitter. I'm just pointing out how much the Sant Mat philosophy as practiced by RSSB has changed since the days of Charan Singh.

Like I said, previous gurus were scrupulous about separating their personal business dealings from "sangat" dealings. Gurinder Singh isn't.

The relatives who gave him stock that made him and his family one of the richest in India are RSSB initiates who hold to the teaching, "The guru is perfect and must be obeyed." The board of directors of Religare is, I've heard, composed of numerous satsangis.

There is evidence that the guru was involved in determining the leadership of Ranbaxy prior to the drug company engaging in illegal pharmaceutical testing and other practices. Do you really consider that this is how Sant Mat spirituality has been practiced by the RSSB gurus, and should be practiced?

You seem to be unduly uncritical, excusing behavior that isn't excusable even by worldly standards, and certainly not by the leader of a spiritual organization that claims to be focused on taking souls out of the illusions of material existence.

[Sudeep]

Brian,

My point was that having access or being relative to Guru doesnt ensure anyone's elightenment. It is something very personal and depends on one's own efforts. Guru can guide you only.

Expecting Malvinder to be englightened enough just because Gurinder is his uncle is noway justified. We should be careful while raising such points.

[just me]

Brian, you say "You seem to be unduly uncritical".

Maybe I see money as an illusion.

Does money define a person? Maybe Gurinder's family is wealthy now but do we even know for sure that Gurinder is very rich? Isn't this speculation?

How do I know what is true? Only by looking inside myself.

[Brian Hines]

just me, there are lots of ways to know what is true. One is by reading blog posts that reference Indian business stories. Such as:

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/12/radha-soami-satsang-beas-guru-makes-250-million.html

Truth isn't only, or even mainly, found by looking within yourself. Most truth lies outside yourself. There's a lot to like about communal reality. It's where the private "me" meets up with the public "we" -- a nice place to be.

Excerpt from the blog post:
------------------------

Wow, it really pays to be an Indian guru with the right connections. Check out this story, "SEBI nod for Radha Soami Satsang Beas." (SEBI is the Securities and Exchange Board of India.)

"The capital market regulator has granted exemption to Logos Holding Company from making an open offer to the shareholders of Religare Enterprises for its acquisition of 19.53% stake in the company. Logos Holding is an investment arm of the Gurinder Singh Dhillon family.

Gurinder Singh is the current head of one of India's largest religious sect – Radha Soami Satsang Beas. At Thursday's closing price of Rs 460.95, the value of Logos Holding's stake is about Rs 1,163 crore. The Dhillons had acquired the shares at just over Rs 13 crore in 2006."

After someone emailed me a link to this story, naturally I had to grab my calculator, find a rupee to dollar currency converter web site, and figure out how much Rs 1,163 crore and Rs 13 crore are in understandable American dollars. (A crore rupee is 10 million rupees.)

Others can check my work, but I'm pretty sure the Gurinder Singh Dhillon family is the proud possessor of Religare Enterprises shares worth $257,187,507. Let's round it off and say... a quarter of a billion dollars.

That's a lot of money.

[Avi]

The last line of Brian's post: "Shows that even if "god in human form" is your uncle, enlightenment and detachment from worldly concerns can be far away."

Sudeep's response: "Having access to Guru, being relative to HIM doesn't make one enlightened. Everyone has his own Spiritual level."

But what about the Guru himself? It is clear beyond any doubt that the Guru himself is either unable to or doesn't want to detach himself from worldly wealth. On the contrary, he is making all efforts to get richer by the day without even thinking about propriety of his actions. His actions must be questioned and criticized as they are fundamentally against traditional RSSB teachings. What makes it more ironic is that it's against his own public preachings.

I know someone may argue that it's his sons and not he himself who is/are getting richer. But again, the core of RSSB teachings is that realizing God is the sole purpose of this life, and so maximum time should be spent in doing "seva" (service to others) and meditation. I wonder if the teachings for his own sons are different and if yes, why? Or, are his sons not willing to follow their GIHF father's teachings? They say, "charity begins at home" and so shouldn't they (the sons) set an example for others? I hope that they understand the importance and "sole purpose" of this life and shouldn't "waste" it by doing "unworthy" wealth accumulation beyond what is "necessary".

[Sandra]

In German language there is the saying

"preaching water and drinking wine"

that applies perfectly to persons like the one in question.

IMO it has nothing to do with enviousness or jealousy, or bitterness.
The question here is the one of authenticity and honesty.
What makes the case here even worser is the spiritual claim to be GIHF.
All this seem to be a sick joke.

Sorry if I offend somebody - who doesn't see the big fraud here is verily blind and brainwashed.

[Juan]

That's a lot of money.

..ITS ONLY A CHICKEN FEED FOR THE ENLIGHTENED MASTERS.

[Sandra]

Juan,
this is not a valuable argument in this case.
When it’s only “chicken feed” for the enlightened masters, it should be the same for everybody. Though it is fact, that the gurus preach not to tend to materialism. Apart from not being an inspiring example for his disciples he is doing what he denies other people to do. This is not OK - and by no means for a “god in human form”.

[just me]

Brian says "Shows that even if "god in human form" is your uncle, enlightenment and detachment from worldly concerns can be far away."

Yes, this is true! Even if a Master is an enlightened being this does not mean that his family members are also enlightened. As is the case with satsangis whose behavior at times can be very off putting to say the least. We cannot judge a Master by his initiates because we are all on different levels of awakening.

I wish I had my Sant Mat books now because I remember reading the Master Sawan Singh saying that when a Param Sant Satguru takes birth into a human form, Kal also takes birth into human form to mislead people. Salig Ram comes to my mind as an example of this because of the divisions created in the Radha Soami movement from Swami Ji's time.

[Avi]

just me,
I'm not sure whether you read my comment above or not. I agree that we cannot and shouldn't judge the master by the actions of his disciples, but what about the master's own actions, especially when they are fundamentally against his own public preaching. I hope you don't answer with something like: we are in no position to judge an "enlightened" master.

[just me]

Avi,

Yes I did read your comment.

I can only speak from my own experience and I don't like misinformation. I have not found anything to criticize when attending and listening very attentively to Gurinder's satsangs. I do this because I have a very critical mind and I certainly don't want to be misled. I am very much aware of the deception in the world and there are so many frauds around.

I certainly would not put myself in the position of judging or even believing someone is enlightened. I have studied all the Sant Mat books many times over the years and then gave them away.

Now my personal philosophy is to find out for myself through meditation. That is, after all, the basic teaching of this path.

Wishing you all well... Cheers

[Skeptic]

I wonder what he does with all that money. Charitable things I hope. Btw some very close members of the guru's family are not RS members. I wonder what what means. I guess they weren't chosen to be special.

[the9thGate]

This post has been fascinating and it raises more questions....I always felt R.S. was very cliquey from the trenches...It guess that resonates from the very top of the pyramid. At least we know that the Guru is making his own living and relying solely on monetary seva...I really feel he should shift his persona to that of motivational life-style Guru which would still allow him to spurt spiritual anecdotes. I have to agree with Brian in that...all this is so far removed from Sant Mat of the Charan Era. I remember the first piece of Sant Mat literature I ever read called The Path. It made me feel detached from money and material pursuits...hell; it made me feel detached from my own family! Nobody can deny that money is something Gurinder Singh likes to accumulate wealth(and not just the spiritual kind)...and to amass such wealth takes effort, some business savy and an investment in time and sweat equity....i.e. Gurinder wanted to make the money. Why? Well; what else do you do with money but use it to buy things...planes, properties, cars...re-investment...I am sure he does charity work too but he has enough money to make radical change in poor parts of India...If he is God...he could make sure no poor child has to starve in India and yet we all know there are still parts in India where the conditions of living are deplorable. Does God have a limit to the charity he gives?....Does God not have an abundance to share? All these posts regarding Ranbaxy Laboratories just seem like a self serving hobby for Gurinder. I really can't see anything with a spiritual message behind it.
Now Brian...I am sure a satsangi will say to you "you don't know how Gurinder/God in Human Form thinks of works...all this money is an act to hide his humility; a red herring to test the faith of those on the cusp....Gurinder is so humble that he would even try to conceal his humility and play the bad guy by making his money dealings known"...oh the sacrifice! Satsangi's can justify almost anything! Am I bitter? Perhaps a little. Why? Because I came to Sant Mat looking for esoteric truth....infallible truth...and the truth presented to me and many others was something that echoed 'this world is not our true home, money is Maya, family is illusion, my very body is Maya...all that matters is Shabd,,,Shabd cares not for money, family, Maya....Shabd transcends everything, Shabd is bliss...Shabd mercifully took the garbs of a man to save us from the shackles of materialism'...that is Sant Mat is it not? If so; would one consider Gurinder Singh Dhillion the personification of Shabd....Honestly...I had greater expectations and the perhaps the only one I have to blame for that is myself. Still; it does not change the fact....money and R.S. is connected deeply...so it begs the question...Is spirituality and money interwoven? Is this what Gurinder Singh is trying to tell us?

[iloveDrAnn]

Tara's comment from above

"It was the guru's decision to sell Ranbaxy and he (the guru) was revered as infallible for the move"

If this is a statement of fact? Then, IMO, there are deep troubles in Camelot. MacArthur's Park is melting in the dark........Very disturbing implications here, not the least of which is if disciples fail to SEE the disturbing implications, that is proof to me that there is knee-jerk denial, and that is
always lamentable, if not dangerous.

[Roger]

"Now my personal philosophy is to find out for myself through meditation. That is, after all, the basic teaching of this path."

---Finding out, through meditation sounds interesting. What in the basic teachings, would one find out through meditation? Why not, through the basic teachings, do the 'finding out' and skip the hours/years of meditation?

I (myself) can just attend some basic teaching sessions and FIND OUT through being taught.

[just me]

Reading the above comments it seems to me that most satsangis start out on the path of Sant Mat by projecting their expectations and images of what and who they think the guru should be. I did this myself. The fundamentally religious type will cling to these beliefs and congregate with others of the same ilk at satsang and this is comforting for them no doubt.

Its more difficult to actually make a breakthrough by seeing what one's own beliefs and perceptions are, one's own projections and then to change one's outlook. In other words to empty the mind as much as possible in meditation and also to keep a check on the mind so that we can be receptive to the Shabd (the Tao).

This is why meditation cannot really be learnt. Throw out the teachings and find out through meditation who we really are. The last satsang I attended where Gurinder was speaking in the Indian language the one sentence in English was "be the Word". For the christian types in the audience obviously. So I believe in being the Shabd, the life force and sometimes its so incredibly uplifting. So don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Former RS Member]

It boils down to this: You wouldn't take a Yoga class from someone who doesn't actually practice yoga. Similarly, Gurinder needs to practice what he preaches... he can't be raking in millions while preaching a simple lifestyle. To me this is all the proof needed that he and his path are a fraudulent product and a waste of your money.

[Avi]

just me,
As far as I can understand you seem to assume/suggest that we can meditate and find for ourselves "who we are". This assumption, I am afraid, is not in line with what GSD preaches. I have heard him many times saying that without the master's "grace", we simply cannot meditate. In fact, he goes on to say that everything is in his (God's/master's) hands and we can only pray for his forgiveness. So, it cannot be emphasized enough that the master is important for success in meditation. In effect, one has to have full faith in the master in order to succeed in meditation. As they say, "actions speak louder than words", in my opinion, the master's actions do play a very important role in how much faith disciples will have in him and his abilities to help them succeed in meditation.

[Skeptic]

They say that in India there is a guru on every corner. Many people in the Indian community here in North America laugh at how gullible we are.

[just me]

But he's not taking our money. His income is from his business ventures.

There are now a couple of million (so I've heard but can't confirm) satsangis, many of whom live overseas in many different countries. They want to see their guru and how impossible it would be for the Dera guesthouse to accommodate so many people. So he visits them in their countries. Would you deny the followers these visits?

[Brian Hines]

just me, the guru's income isn't from his business ventures. HIs wealth comes from gifted shares of stock in companies that the guru had nothing to do with prior to RSSB initiates (who happen to be relatives) giving he and his family the shares.

[Avi]

just me,

I couldn't quite understand your argument in your last post.

Are you saying that GSD pays for his official (satsang related) overseas visits from his "personal" income? I believe that those tours are funded, and rightly so, by RSSB trust. There is nothing wrong in that at all.

Also, if meditation is everything and one can do it by oneself (as you seemed to suggest in your previous post), what's the need for the master to travel to different parts of the world? Are you now implying the importance of master and his "darshan" for success on this spiritual path? If yes, are you not contradicting yourself?

As I said in beginning itself, my understanding of your comment might be different from yours, so please correct me if I am wrong.

[Avi]

Skeptic,

You said, "Btw some very close members of the guru's family are not RS members."

That sounds interesting. Would you like to elaborate more on that? I hope the "very close members" don't include his own sons.

[just me]

Avi,

Although I have changed the way I view Sant Mat, I am happy for satsangis to have GSD visit them in their country because I am seeing this from their perspective and not implying anything other than that.

As to meditation being important and doing it by oneself... well there isn't anyone one else here but me doing it *joking*. Sorry, we are on different wavelengths here.

Okay, explanation time... I still stick with the four principles, vegetarianism, no alcohol or mind altering drugs, moral lifestyle and meditation.

I don't attend satsang unless Gurinder is visiting and I certainly don't go looking for darshan etc and what others do is really their business not mine.

As to the importance of having a Master, I do think its important to have a guide and now it depends on my own personal evolution as to what I see and experience during meditation.

[the9thGate]

Just me:- You say that you only attend the satsangs that Gurinder does and then say that you do not go looking for darshan...
Why would you need a guide if you are at a stage of Personal evolution? Would your ability to perform Simran and Bhajan not be enough?
I must ask:- have you interacted with Babi Ji within in his radiant form?
Regards
The 9th Gate

[Roger]

"As to the importance of having a Master, I do think its important to have a guide and now it depends on my own personal evolution as to what I see and experience during meditation."

---What does personal evolution mean? Is this a movement in subjective awareness? What exactly is a Master guided meditation experience? Does this type of meditation experience go through a brain activity filtration mechanism? This topic needs further discussion.

[Avi]

just me,

I am sorry to say that but it is now clear to me that you just like to provoke/confront others by making some controversial statements (see below for examples).In my opinion, you don't really seem to have the ability to argue your point and that's why you just ignore to logically respond to others' specific points in response to your earlier statements.

Examples that prove my above point:

You say to Brian:

a. "All this commotion looks a lot like jealousy to me. Why so bitter? Didn't quite make it into Gurinder's inner circle perhaps."

It's clearly a provocative statement, and when Brian refutes you logically, you seem to backtrack and say:

b. "I read your blog because I am churchless and I know you are fair in your approach and I do try not to be too confrontational!"

And then, in the very next post, you repeat exactly what you backtracked on earlier.

c. "Looks like you had too many expectations which were not fulfilled because you are now sounding sarcastic and bitter."

Similarly, you said above:

d. "Throw out the teachings and find out through meditation who we really are."

When I ask you for some clarification on the above statement and your opinion on the importance of the master in meditation, you respond by making another controversial statement implying that GSD "needs" to "earn" a lot of money to fund his overseas visits.

e. "But he's not taking our money. His income is from his business ventures.

There are now a couple of million (so I've heard but can't confirm) satsangis, many of whom live overseas in many different countries. They want to see their guru and how impossible it would be for the Dera guesthouse to accommodate so many people. So he visits them in their countries. Would you deny the followers these visits?"

When I again ask for a clarification on this and your earlier comment, your "explanation" is:

f. "I still stick with the four principles, vegetarianism, no alcohol or mind altering drugs, moral lifestyle and meditation.

I don't attend satsang unless Gurinder is visiting and I certainly don't go looking for darshan etc and what others do is really their business not mine.

As to the importance of having a Master, I do think its important to have a guide and now it depends on my own personal evolution as to what I see and experience during meditation."

The above statements, I am afraid, are very subjective statements about yourself and your beliefs and not an explanation of your earlier made points.

In nutshell, your "arguments" don't make any sense, and probably that's why I shouldn't waste my time in arguing with you.

[just me]

Avi,

You say "In nutshell, your "arguments" don't make any sense, and probably that's why I shouldn't waste my time in arguing with you".

Yes, you and I are on completely different wavelengths. Of course my comments or arguments as you call them don't make any sense to you. Just as any kind of esoteric philosophical debate will make no "sense" to you.

I am simply an alternative type satsangi. I don't like extremes, I am neither a fundamentalist type satsangi, nor an ex-satsangi. Nothing is all black or white, there are many shades of gray.

I follow the path in my own way being as authentically myself as I can possibly be.

Roger,

Once again, if you would like to know what kind of meditation and experiences, whether subjective or objective, you would have to read one of the many Sant Mat books, this is what they are there for to explain in detail what this path is.

[Skeptic]

Avi,
I don't know if the sons are RS. What I do know is when GSD was made Master he was basically required to abandon his wife and children, ie the husband and father "householder" role. What I also know is his younger brother who is a lawyer is not initiated (nor is his wife) but has been involved in RS with respect to legal matters. I quite like the brother actually, cool dude, good sense of humour. My information could be a few years out of date, so it's possible he was initiated in the past few years but I doubt it, unless it was just for show.

[cc]

"I quite like the brother actually, cool dude, good sense of humour."

Yeah, he is a cool dude. We hang out when I'm in India. He get's high and he laughs at all the dumbass devotees, but he's so into the money, he only confides in a few similarly cool dudes like me.

[Skeptic]

Just glad to see they are all leading a moral life. Well, no eggs anyway
http://www.sikh24.com/2012/07/sangat-tv-reporter-attacked-by-dera-beas/#.Uan7bsu9KSM

[Mike Williams]

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/

This Church of the Churchless post
is now front page on this site.

I am sure Gurinder will be pleased when he
wakes up for his morning coffee to find 300
people a day reading about it.

To Gurinder and Rajinder moles wherever
you may be .......................

this toast is for you.

You are managing to completely destroy
your own religion.

[Mike Williams]

You know this post on Dirty Money is exactly what
the public wants to know about. It is a series
of hard hitting documented facts.

People want provable facts. People want facts to
make their own decisions.

The truth has a way of finding its way to the surface.

It's really impossible to hide history for very long.

If only one person discovers the truth, that's all
it takes for the whole world to find out.

There is no way to keep secrets.

The strangest thought of someone busting a cult
goes through their minds.

Should we go into Disneyland and tell all the people
having a good time .... they are all deluded ?

Maybe we should let them be deluded.

The next thought of someone busting a cult, is that
we should let those already in a cult remain deluded.

Why not ?

The third thought of someone busting a cult is for the
children of the future. If a kid can be stopped before they
start .... there won't be much pain for them.

I can't begin to tell you the strange feeling it gives
me to see people and families worshiping criminals.

It makes this world so unreal to me.

As if life is some horrible nightmare, with beautiful
gardens and birds and flowers and skies and mountains.

How can these things exist together ?

[cc]

"The next thought of someone busting a cult"

Who ya gonna call? Cult Busters!

[tucson]

I agree with Mike about cults.

On the one hand you feel it is your duty to inform those being duped.

On the other hand you do not want to rock their world and remove the rudder from their boat because their delusion gives them security even if it is false. Insecurity can be tough even if it is wise, according to Alan Watts.

On the other hand (if there was another. I only have two.) you want to put these crooks out of business. What they get away with is unconscionable. I mean, posing as God almighty, taking money and free work for it (seva) and encouraging people to base their lives on a lie and a fantasy?
That's not very nice.

Think of all the tasty muffins they are missing out on because they may contain 1/12 of an egg. It's a crying shame. (RS followers must VOW to avoid eating eggs or any food containing even a fraction of one).

[Skeptic]

I wouldn't feel the least bit bad rocking their world. Each and every one of the hundred or so that I've met think they are so special. Their egos could use some cutting down, even according to their own philosophy!

[Mike Williams]

Hi tucson and cc,

Brian and myself are the only people
with websites against Radhasoami.
So some think of us as conspiracy
theorists.

And, I am not against the Radhasoami Faith
of the original Agra group.

But, there has not been a genuine Radhasoami
master since 1949, the last Agra master.

Beas has been fake since Sawan declared himself a master and Jaimal was always
a fake, whom admitted he was not a sant
to Chachaji and Sudarshan.

Beas never had a master.

Salig Ram, the founder of RS faith, threw Jaimal out of his satsang for pretending to be a guru and screwing very underage little girls.

How in the world could anyone accept Jaimal as a Radhasoami master ? No one on earth authorised him and the founder trashed him.

Well, Beas is quite a distance from Agra.
In 1903, when Jaimal died, I would bet there were no more then a few hundred
followers of Jaimal at Beas. He could only get a handful of votes for the Council.

It was really Sawan and his propoganda machine that capitalized on the Beas situation. Sawan was incredibly greedy
and oddly enough even Beas metions this.

Sawan owned everything donated to Beas
satsang as his personal wealth. His will
shows this.

[Gaz]

On the one hand you feel it is your duty to inform those being duped.

On the other hand you do not want to rock their world and remove the rudder from their boat because their delusion gives them security even if it is false. Insecurity can be tough even if it is wise, according to Alan Watts.

I agree, when i was RS, RS was the only thing i really had, if i had a minor problem i would pray to the Guru. 70% of the followers are very fed up with life, some have had divorces, been drug dealers etc, RS gives them that sense of belonging.

IMO all religions including RS are LOAN SHARKS. You go there when you're depressed,the preachers help to an extent BUT, later on, you eventually find out that it's a fraud etc, then you get upset and more depressed.

[Mike Williams]

Hi gaz and tucson,

Recently when I almost died from
an accident, I asked myself what
was the ultimate goal of life.

My conclusion was finding some truth
people are unaware of and then
telling people that truth.

If we can't discover some truthful
fact by ourselves, then to backup
someone whom is telling truthful facts.

Once people learn a truthful fact
there is no need for opinions.

The answer becomes obvious by itself.

http://ffilms.org/malcolm-x-1992/

The above movie is the story of a famous
man whom dedicated himself to a guru.

[Roger]

Thanks just me,

You replied,

"Once again, if you would like to know what kind of meditation and experiences, whether subjective or objective, you would have to read one of the many Sant Mat books, this is what they are there for to explain in detail what this path is."

--to my supposed question,

"What exactly is a Master guided meditation experience? Does this type of meditation experience go through a brain activity filtration mechanism?"

----Which exact text, with exact page numbers, give an exact explanation to the question? If anyone has such, could they copy/paste such to this thread. Thanks again.

[Avi]

Thank you, Skeptic, for the information about GSD's family. I was away for some time, and am sorry for the very late response.

[cc]

Let's look at this rationally and quit looking for villains and victims. If I can tell you what you want to hear and you're willing to pay me for performing that service, which one of us is wrong? Me, for selling you the pack of lies that turns you on, or you for emmploying me for that purpose?

If these guys are getting rich pretending to be enlightened, it's because there are so many people who'd rather pay tribute to or pin blame on others than do anything for themselves.

[FOLLOWER SAINT]

oh saint,oh sat guru ji,,,
give me faith to you....
Oh God,, Sat Guru,, Master without you,,,
I am nothing....

Hi the unbeliever writen,,, If you don't believe is Ok,,, but Don't you put rock in front of your way... this is no wise.

Don't you slander someone or write something untruth
You must look with the inner eyes,,,

Oh saint from all direction,, forgive them because they don't know what they should do,, they very frustated about this world.

Look Jesus christ, mansur, guru arjan dev, and other saint. a lot of people also hurt saint, even kill them, they doesn't believe them,

Please if you don't believe is ok, it is your right,,, but is it right you write something untruth???
this is personal experience, not only outer express...
I wish you understand....

from the follower saint.....

[sunny]

they want their own community. my faimly is destroyed after i married to a radha soami girl. as per their teachings no murti pooja no vrat only naam daan etc.. they shud teach that after marriage a lady shud obey the inlaws customs. listen rssb satsang also. but shud obey the husband customs. their teachings are unique and sangat is also unique. im helpless. a real guru must tell the right thing. some basic athics. nothing more to say.

[777]

Brian said :

I was given a choice between continuing to share my ideas on this blog, or continuing as a RSSB speaker.

Seems reasonable to me
Receiving Satsang from an enthusiastic guy is more beneficial
and
the Sound Stream Interference passes through her/him more easily to the audience

You know
I'm delighted to hear that The present Master has a plane
altough I would have missed many super Charan Moments
of darshan, . . One at a meter from him at an airport for an hour :)

But the effect of another occasian - Charan at a kilometer distance
was equal
It is more or less the equivalent of a year of meditation to meet

And again, concerning moneys :

Good to hear that Gurinder ended bad and hurting investments

Dont forget King Akbar was a trillionair too

-

! !

[Yogendra]

Can Sir Brian Hines by any means establish that The present Master earned money by wrong means i.e. by donation, by corruption, by fraud or by misusing his connections or his position? Any proofs? Please don't say "We have proofs but won't disclose them". Why? Why not disclose them? Dear Sir Brian, it is addressed to you. In your next blog please give authentic PROOFS along with the VERIFIABLE source or stop this propaganda once for all. Also prove that he is compromising his duties as a Master to earn money. Well, in India He gives satsangs on about 40 weekends. For two or more months of rainy season in India, he goes abroad every year. Every weekend Satsang involves him for three to six days. I can assure you Out of 365 days in a year he passes 330 days in service of the Satsang i.e at Satsang Venues alone. Otherwise also, He is 24x7 servant of the satsang.

Well, out of several means of objective judgement, I choose the formal teachings given in RSSB satsangs, RSSB books, RSSB magazines, RSSB website ( www.rssb.org), RSSB facebook account - facebook.com/RSSB. And astonishingly all of them are identical preaching pure spirituality.

I am no less skeptical than Sir Brian as it is a survival phenomenon, But I Take time and Repetitive PROOFS before reaching a conclusion. Then I add pros and cones of missing a lifetime opportunity(If anybody feels like that). Also the source of disappointment can be my incorrect or maladaptive attitudes and approaches to understand a phenomenon. We have to be more than cautious in dealing esoteric affairs because a wrong decision can be spiritually, emotionally, psychologically fatal for us.
With loving regards to Brian Hines, the Blogger Brian of today.

[Alexis]

I was trying to understand Gurinder's involvement in the scandal but I saw nothing of the sorts other than someone who is supposed to be a relative being involved in it. Can you please elaborate?

[Brian Hines]

Alexis, you can do a Google search for other posts about Gurinder Singh Dhillon's connections with Religare and Ranbaxy. Just type "Gurinder Singh Religare" in the Google search box in the right sidebar.

The guru has made at least $250 million from business dealings related to Religare. See:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/12/radha-soami-satsang-beas-guru-makes-250-million.html

This adds some background to what was written in this post about the guru's wealth:

"Financially, his family has become one of the richest in India, thanks to gifting of Religare stock by several relatives (and RSSB initiates), Malvinder and Shivinder Singh. Another post of mine describes the money connections between Religare and the guru.

Religare is a company that Malvinder and Shivinder Singh invested heavily in after selling their stake in Ranbaxy, a pharmaceutical company. So the money gifted to the guru and his family is rooted in previous Ranbaxy holdings."

[Yogendra]

How do you know Malvinder and Shivinder gifted the shares to the guru? Any proofs?
I myself checked the financial accounts of Religare with SEBI. Guru has million or billion dollar shares in them.
But the question is where he earned the shares from? Brian says or on somebody elses behalf says Malvinder and Shivinder gifted him the shares. But nobody gives the PROOFS. It seems a mere propaganda to me. I declare that its the guru's hard earned money like that earned by Bill Gates or Steve Jobbs.
Anyways, for Brian here is the satsang programme of the guru for 2013
06 Jan Mumbai
27 Jan Raipur
03 Feb Indore
10 Feb Hyderabad
17 Feb Beas(Dera)
24 Feb Beas(Dera)
03 Mar Beas(Dera)
10 Mar Jamshedpur
12,13 Mar Mumbai
17 Mar Delhi
24 Mar Beas(Dera)
31 Mar Beas(Dera)
07 Apr Beas(Dera)
14 Apr Nagpur
12 May Parore
19 May Beas(Dera)
26 May Beas(Dera)
02 Jun Beas(Dera)
07 Jul Beas(Dera)

July-August ABROAD

08 Sep Bangalore
15 Sep Beas(Dera)
22 Sep Beas(Dera)
29 Sep Beas(Dera)
06 Oct Jammu
13 Oct Delhi
20 Oct Beas(Dera)
27 Oct Beas(Dera)
03 Nov Beas(Dera)
10 Nov Sikanderpur
24 Nov Lukhnow
26,27 Nov Rudrapur
01 Dec Delhi
08 Dec Beas(Dera)
15 Dec Beas(Dera)
22 Dec Beas(Dera)
29 Dec Beas(Dera)
31 Dec, 1 Jan Jaipur
Brian, judge yourself how much Master is involved with 'Dirty' money.
I have just mentioned the last days (sundays) of his programs. Every program is at least 2 day long as far as satsangs are concerned. The third and fourth day may be for Naamdan. In Beas generally naamdan program lasts for a week at least twice a year.
I will agree with you in everything if you can proove that he owns the gifted shares.
loving regards,
Yogendra
( in my last comment which you didn't publish perhaps I misspelt my E-mail address. Anyways, You must have read that. Still you are propogating the perhaps 99.99% false propaganda.)

[Brian Hines]

Yogendra, your earlier comment went in the "spam" file. I dug it out and published it. I am not automatically sent comments that TypePad, my blog service, classifies as spam.

You need to read all of the posts about Gurinder Singh and Religare. Type "Gurinder Singh Religare" into the Google search box in the right sidebar. Educate yourself.

The guru hasn't become rich through his own efforts or his own investments. He has become rich in other ways. Again, learn the facts.

[Sandra]

Yogendra,

apart from the guru's money - earned hard or not, dirty or not - it's a fact that people are working for the guru (whosoever) without payment because they believe that by doing seva for the guru they will make progress on their spiritual path. The whole thing is a big deception. It’s dishonourable, immoral and unethical. This is worse than slavery. It’s a misguidance on the part of the guru, and a kind of foolish sheep - behaviour on the part of the devotees.
These people are simply wasting their lives in the belief of a myth.

[Yogendra]

I know that he owns big amount of shares, but what is the source of them?

[Avi]

Yogendra,

First you make an assertion:

"I declare that its the guru's hard earned money like that earned by Bill Gates or Steve Jobbs."

and then follow it up with a question:

"I know that he owns big amount of shares, but what is the source of them?"

Who do you expect to provide you (and many others) with the source? Don't you think that GSD himself is in the best position to do so and should, therefore, declare the source himself? or otherwise, since you have made such a strong assertion in his favor, why don't you also do some research and let everyone know about the "legitimate" source(s) of his huge assets/income? I hope you know that before becoming the Guru, GSD was just a salaried employee in Spain.

[777]

Sandra :
They work for the organosation
not for the Guru

I did it once ,- nobody asked me
It's special, very special
it's very OK such n experience
Going in . . while walking

I heard that they use Caterpillars now.
Shame

I'm happy I have testified here
about Him Radiance and Power, . although as I said
He surely thinks about Himself
the lowliest of all Charan's disciples

777

[Brian Hines]

777, for sure Gurinder Singh is the richest and most powerful of Charan Singh's disciples. Difficult to find much sign of "lowliness" here.

Nothing wrong with that. Gurinder Singh is a regular guy, just like the rest of us. He has found ways to make lots of money from his job, being a guru.

Anyone who believes that money and power are good, which is most people, speaking realistically, will admire Gurinder Singh. But there are still a few people around who believe that spirituality is about something else.

[777]

Brian, you proved nothing on moneys , you carbon others . . . liker !

Mike William who is

equally fake as his five words he placed here

but I start to believe that most comments here are from non satsangis

How can they know about The sweet sweet Sound
a human bath in

PS
I remember our talks with Charan
in Amritsar Airport waiting room
where HE explained the hardships of sitting
for hours, . . . the pain on Jis Eyes
saying : I'm following orders

IIf Gurinder has all that money privately as you say and continues such a hard job , often at temperatures 35° Celsius
He had already quitted long ago

And RSSB will need h much more
when the Golf Stream will be cut and ice goes up to LA
and the oceans rise

777

[Gaz]

apart from the guru's money - earned hard or not, dirty or not - it's a fact that people are working for the guru (whosoever) without payment because they believe that by doing seva for the guru they will make progress on their spiritual path.

Yes at April's satsangs Gurinder admitted in an Q&A that neither seva or satsang eradicate karma. The above is in contrast to Charan's teachings, and Sawan Singh referred to Satsang as a soap that washes karma.

IMO, doing RS seva is no different from working in a charity shop, in fact, working in a charity shop is better because you are helping people that actually need money/help etc.

[Avi]

Over the past several months of reading this blog, in general, I have observed that many (presumably current "Satsangis"), quite obviously, feel hurt by others' comments on lack of propriety (sorry, I couldn't think of a better word) observed in RSSB's functioning in general and GSD's behavior (both in terms of his words and his actions)in particular. But, rather than contradicting or correcting the commenter(s) factually, they get on the defensive, make vague assertions(sometimes totally unrelated to the subject being discussed) without EVER substantiating what they assert and ask/expect the commenter(s) to "prove" their point.

The following is most recent example:

"Brian, you proved nothing ........." - quote from the comment by 777 above.

[the9thGate]

Gaz:- Good to read you again. I did not attend National Satsang in April. It is odd what Gurinder said about seva and satsang not eradicating karma. Does that mean it is adding to the karmic load?
I am assuming you went. Were there any topics in the Q&A session or satsang otherwise which you would regard as having real substance?

[Yogendra]

Ok,now we all agree on two facts, the proven ones i.e. he was a salaried man in spain before enthroned as Guru and Second that today he is a billionaire.

I agree and everyone must agree on that be a satsangi or not, his admirer or a critic.

Now, we move to the next question i.e. where did all this money come from?

Well most on this blog as instigated by Brian and others and by some half baked and half concocted stories in links provided on this blog ASSUME that he earned this money by taking gifts from his nephews Malvinder and Shivinder ( Gurinder is Charan's nephew, son of his sister, and Malvinder and Shivinder are Charan's granddsons, sons of Nimmi, his daughter and Pammi, son of Bhai Mohan Singh. In other words Gurinder and Nimmi are first cousins. Nimmi is Charan's daughter and Malvinder and Shivinder's mother.)

Still, true spirituality or Santmat doesn't allow the student or the Master to crop on anyone else's income.

So, again the question where did all this money come from?

No one knows the answer, neither I nor Brian and party.

So, who knows the answer? None!

There are only speculations and much allegations.
We MUST get down to the truth.

As Brian suggested me internet research is of no help. They are all concocted stories around two facts.
One, he was a salaried person in Spain before enthroned as Master and
second, today he is a billionaire.

Yes, he is a billionaire . Check with Religare's annual reports submitted to India's securities regulatory institution SEBI.

Brian can provide the links. Either Gurinder's sons Gurkirat and .......'s name appear in them or Gurinder's family company "Logos ....." appear.

I have myself checked the records on SEBI's site.

Now, again the same question where did all this money come from?

Now I address Sir Brian what do you say?

Faithful like me ASSUME that it is his own heritage, earned by efforts, investments or by intelligently multiplying his hereditary wealth by investments or so.

The faithless ASSUME he earned this wealth unethically, if not unlawfully.

Right?

Sir Brian do you have any answer?

I have tried to be as much unbiased as possible. My comment is testimony to this.

So, we all should join hands to dig the truth.

Someone may write to Dera Secretary. They are very open with the RSSB's acquired wealth and accounts, but there must be some right procedure and practical means and time lag.

Similarly they must be open with Master's acquired wealth and personal income. Why shouldn't they be? After all Master himself must set the example as has been the case with all the true Masters of this world.

But I personally feel abuse, lamentation or challenge won't work. Humility and love will surely do.

Remember, Dera or Master need not overstretch themselves up to unpractical limits just to show off their honesty.

Personal income is a personal matter and you know how to ask personal details of a regular person.

Loving, faithful(in other's honesty)and genuine seekers will definitly get the right answer, as Napoleon has said, the word impossible lies only in the dictionary of the fools.

Well, I am already trying to figure out the facts because Brian matters for me.

I will communicate the latest facts (not speculations) as soon as I get them.

Loving regards,

[Sandra]

For me it is of no interest how he got the money and if the money is dirty or not. Fact is, that obviously material wealth plays an important role in the guru’s life.
So the crucial question is: Does the guru fit in with the Sant Mat-story which is preaching the way out of materialism? Doesn’t he preach water and he himself is drinking wine?
I am not willing to accept such a contradictoriness.

[Yogendra]

Ha ha ha! I knocked the bull's eye.
You know in 2007 when Gurinder bought 12,500,000 shares for his sons Gurpreet Singh and Gurkeerat Singh each owning 6,250,000 at value Rs.10 each it was lees than the cost of shopping complex or so which he owned in Chandigarh, the capital of Haryana and Punjab states and a union territory. In 2007, you could sell a modest bungalow in chandigarh and buy more shares in Religare than Gurinder did.

I will call this THE investment of the millenium.

Hats off to Charan and almighty Lord. There can be no better example of material Grace.
You know, I am not able to control my feelings. Euphoria is taking over me. I can just remember "Eureka Eureka". I am feeling like being shot at point blank.

What a fool I was. I had read the blog "RSSB guru makes $254 million" about a year ago. And I didn't look at the figures objectively, otherwise I wouldn't have doubted my Master's honesty. As suggested in the blog I thought Malvinder and Shivinder would have gifted the shares to Gurpreet and Gurkeerat because they were their second cousins and Master's sons. I have explained the relationships of the four in my above comment.

For all the year long I had been thinking how it is possible for the Master to accept gifts and thrive his family on it when it is clearly abandoned for the seekers of the path in RSSB Hindi publications for the seekers of initiation "For the Seekers".It is the only book seekers are expected to read or listen( for illiterates) before initiation in India.

As I was Sharing above, the cost price of Shares Gurinder bought is a petty amount in India.

My father is a retired school teacher. He earns from his property(not ancestral) and pension as much as Rs. 1.5 million every year. The price of his property in my small town of Alwar (in Rajasthan) is Rs. 20 million.
He bought the land for property in 2003 for Rs. 1 million which by 2007 had doubled or tripled, say doubled i.e. Rs. 2 million.
Well, India is a fast developing country. Currency is devaluing too fast.

So, if my father would have invested in 2007 in Religare by his service income and loans by amount Rs.2 million he would have earned $4 million as per calculations in 6 years.

If at that time in 2007 had he sold his ancestral agricultural land which is 3 hectares for Rs. 12 million and invested in Religare he would have earned around $28 millions gross.

Well, by now Gurinder's story has come to a sudden and very very short conclusion and containing only one detail or fact.

Gurinder served in Spain. At the time of retirement he possessed a commercial property in Chandigarh whose rent was his source of income. In 2007 he sold it and bought 12,500,000 shares for Rs. 125,000,000 a meager money in Chandigarh. Today, he has earned $254 million out of them.THE END

Brian God shot in your Third eye.

Regards!

[777]

-

ONLY LOVE BURNS KARMA

so Gurinder is Right !

777

ps
why the context was not given
around Gurinders saying on Seva ?

and what did he say : LITERALY !

He might very well have argued and warned angainst
people seeking replacements for meditations
called 'short cuts" by Charan

and please think about what Luther was fighting for
like :

13 guinees to forgive killing a man
5 guinees for a women

777

Perhaps Gurinder trying to keep Sant Mat Churchless a little longer

[Avi]

Yogendra,

Congratulations on first "knocking the bulls eye" and then "making God shot in Brian's third eye", although I am not sure whether Brian actually has one (Brian, please correct me if I am wrong!!) or anything called a third eye even exists. If you ever see one, please share your experience.

Ok, let's come to the point. Although, I don't agree with the conclusions of your “research” that was completed at a lightning fast speed, even if all of what you are saying is correct, you basically seem to suggest now that it's ok for GSD to successfully multiply and accumulate worldly wealth as long as it is done legally.

I hope you agree that GSD is considered to be GIHF and his prime job is taking souls out of the illusions of material existence. Also, the crux of RSSB teachings is that detachment from worldly materialism is the NECESSARY condition for God realization.

'this world is not our true home, money is Maya, family is illusion, my very body is Maya...all that matters is Shabd, Shabd cares not for money, family, Maya .... Shabd transcends everything, Shabd is bliss ... Shabd mercifully took the garbs of a man to save us from the shackles of materialism'

- quote from the9thgate's comment above (made on May 30th, 2013)

What's your response to some of the more fundamental questions raised in this post?

" .... the gurus preach not to tend to materialism. Apart from not being an inspiring example for his disciples he is doing what he denies other people to do. This is not OK - and by no means for a “god in human form”."

- quote from Sandra's comment above (made on May 29th, 2013)

"You wouldn't take a Yoga class from someone who doesn't actually practice yoga. Similarly, Gurinder needs to practice what he preaches... he can't be raking in millions while preaching a simple lifestyle."

- quote from Former RS Member's comment above (made on May 30, 2013)

"So the crucial question is: Does the guru fit in with the Sant Mat-story which is preaching the way out of materialism? Doesn't he preach water and he himself is drinking wine?
I am not willing to accept such a contradictoriness."

- quote from Sandra's recent comment above (made on July 17, 2013)

[Brian Hines]

Avi, good comment. You're right: I haven't found any sign of my third eye. Certainly didn't feel any "God's shot" in that area after Yogrendra's comment was received. Maybe it'll be a delayed reaction...

Like you said, there are several disturbing things to note about Gurinder's new vast wealth.

One is that the RSSB guru is putting so much time and energy into making he and his family so wealthy. Like you said, isn't "returning to the Lord" supposed to be the main focus of satsangis, and even more so, the guru who supposedly IS god?

Another is that it seems the guru is actively involved in the management of the companies, whose boards and top executives include quite a few RSSB disciples. Kind of hard to challenge business advice when the person putting it out is viewed as God in Human Form.

And another is that, as discussed in past posts, the guru was gifted "insider" shares of stock from relatives who also are RSSB initiates. Another form of dual relationship: a family member of the guru doesn't only see Gurinder as a relative, but also as a divine being. So giving "god" valuable gifts could be seen as a gift to god which brings divine grace.

[777]

CHER AVI,
The following of
what you said
is not correct

"Also, the crux of RSSB teachings is that detachment from worldly materialism is the NECESSARY condition for God realization. "

IT is exactly the opposite :

Even The Masters say that the mind can ONLY attach, . . not detach.

The specialty of Sant Mat is the triggering of the capacity to hear the sound(s)
with the help of these 5 tremendous words, (-if given by a Saint)

THEN and only THEN the mind will slowly attach to that sweet lovely Sound at all times reverberating in each human's Crown , (but never heard)

This is the same as a kid who will not give up his bicycle and then does after receiving a Motorcycle
and even lateron a Car

THE MIND WILL DETACH ONLY FOR SOMETHING BETTER.

It's the first and the last Step in Sant Mat 'Technics'

btw
Even if a guy would have detached by himself , it would be a loss because he would be proud @ that achievement

This whole perfect system is based on LOVE what we don't have ourselves, but what is in the Giant Words and in AWEFUL ascending Sounds where we can plunge in

The Gurus each time, they change somewhat - God does no thing twice
and She will have good reason
to do as She likes
for the benefit of Her Lovers

The benefit is also receiving love just by a glance
next identifying that LOVE as being the same as in the words , in, the Sounds, in the Lights

ps2
One could with good reason call Gurinder a slave
with this 320 days schedule
and I hope that His Own Darshan by His Master Charan Singh Ji Maharaji an by the precedent Masters will be continuous.

777

[Brian Hines]

777, so your point seems to be that Gurinder Singh hasn't yet attached himself to God/spirit/shabd, because the guru hasn't been able to detach himself from a desire to make huge amounts of money.

I agree. Thanks for making this observation.

[777]

Hi Brian
This is a marvellous comment of Yours
because indeed
Heaven is a state of consciousness that EVER grows.

So there is no end.
It would btw be rather boring if it was static

This goes to the questions of WHO AM I
and WHY, this univers and xillions of ParaBrahms

Its also what Buddha calls DHARMA

It is just that each Jeeva ( Soul+Ego), whatever her history will bouce back
in myriods of different forms of Love

A Holy man or a Saint is one who has ( often without his knowledge)
passed the "regions" ( states of consciousness)
to the extend that he REALLY and without a doubt
feels himself the lowliest of the lowly

It happens automattically by hearing the enormity
of The Source, seeing all tose Saints
from innumerably 4th regions
ascending
and tasting the love from all those gurls/guys

The catholics knew this too
that Saints is a vertical system, . . not horizontal

And while saying Gurinder is God : . . Brian is too
with a longer way in the somewhat unpleasant
aspects of the journey

Remember : LOVE does it, . . not hate

777

[the9thGate]

Reading and responding to RSSB related blogs is akin to my binging habit...I binge on chocolates for that buzz and then feel bad about taking in more sugar than is good for me...what to speak of the sickly after taste.
Brian:- there is something you wrote whereby you said something along the lines of "people measure spirituality in terms of accumulating wealth and power but to some people spirituality is something else"..your words echoed deep within my psyche. I am truly torn. As a child my motive towards embracing spirituality was to seek something magical that can be shared with all equally irrespective of ones social statues, formal education and financial situation. Money frightened me in my adolescence and in detachment there was a weird sort of bliss at the cost of alienating myself from the hedonists. These days I am more cynical; I realise that I need money to quite literally survive. The word Power intrigues me also...by that I mean the power to master my emotions, the power to display empathy and help the children of today who come from the ghetto like me, the power to master my body etc...ultimately control...I suppose it's a balancing act....I don't want wealth and power to deprive me of any humanity I have left. My question to you is "What is spirituality to you these days?"...I already assume wealth and power have nothing to do with it(to be honest with you; I think the whole wealth and power thing resonates snippets of Hinduism; namely Ganesh deity and Lakshmi).
Enclosing...I have this memory of Gurinder being driven out Haynes Park in a top of the range Bentley. The crowd are already in anticipation at the chance of catching a glimpse of him. When the Bentley passes by the spectators are in awe. Somehow in their minds a Bentley is befitting for God in human form.....would they still have the same awe had he been escorted in a Ford Focus?

[Yogendra]

Avi,

First, "The Third Eye", as concluded from Charan's and Sawan's ( His Master, the Great Master) writings in RSSB Books.

1.Sit calm and close your eyes. When you are conscious of the dark inside, yes you are at the Third Eye.
you know, the purpose of meditation is to remain PRESENT at the third eye. All else will follow by itself.

2.When you meditate or do repetition of names, your focus and time in the darkness grows. That's all we want. Unshattered focus in the darkness is called Concentration in spirituality.

"Opening of the Third eye or Going Within"

1. When the concentration is complete i.e. We are able to hold our undivided attention steadfast ( be present ) at the Third Eye for sufficient time i.e. around two to three hours, We start seeing flashes of light in front of us inside the darkness.
This is opening of the Third eye.

"The Progress Inside"
1.We see flashes of the light which is stable and consistent by itself because our concentration goes up and falls down. With Practice the light becomes constant.

2. We may see various faces, sceneries, etc. inside but we should be indifferent towards them because they are the expressions of our own mind's impressions ( or perhaps desires also ) and not anything spiritual at all.

3. As the concentration grows with practice we are able to overcome the previous stage.

4. We see a clear dark sky with bright stars.

5. We see a big shining star. We keep on doing the repetition with indifferent attitude and we cross through the star.

6. Similarly we cross through the Sun and the Moon.

7. There comes the Radiant Form of the Master.

This is "Guru Bhakti" or the "Master's Service". The Disciple's job ends here. From now on Master takes the charge.

The next and final part is "Naam Bhakti" or "Name's ( Word's ) Service."

All the above progress in Master's Service is done solely with the help of repetition of the Names. We hear Word in this stage only for the sake of practice for the second and final stage i.e. Name's Service.

Name's Service is done with help of practice of Word. Repetition of Names is discarded in this stage or done just to reach required concentration.

[Brian Hines]

Yogendra, you've gotten your last "preachy" comment. No more, please. This isn't a religion blog. This is a place to discuss churchless topics.

Speak from your own viewpoint/experience, or speak about the topic of a post. No more Sant Mat preaching. That's tiresome.

[777]

Anyway

Now you remember what you are shitting on
Y forgot to tell that this path is particulary Cool, stressfree
and that even at the start
it makes a guy invulnerable

Brian what alternative did you find
since your 9 years now ?

Spirituality is big Fun !

777

ps
Does anybody know if the text of the Bardo Todol
is on the web somewhere ?

[Sandra]

quote Yogendra
“When you meditate or do repetition of names, your focus and time in the darkness grows. That's all we want. Unshattered focus in the darkness is called Concentration in spirituality.”

“When the concentration is complete i.e. We are able to hold our undivided attention steadfast ( be present ) at the Third Eye for sufficient time i.e. around two to three hours, We start seeing flashes of light in front of us inside the darkness.”
unquote

Sorry, but I cannot agree.
So as to see flashes of light for me it’s not necessary to sit and stare in the darkness for two or three hours. I can see these lights whenever I want them to see.

What is called “concentration”, by means of repetition of the names - always the same words - , seems to me like making myself dumb and stupid, it’s like autohypnosis.

It’s like in the politics, it’s advantageous for the governors when people stop thinking by themselves, it is much easier to control non-thinking people. They are doing what they are told to do.

This is not real life, it’s waste of precious lifetime.

[Yogendra]

Maybe it's my last comment on hinessight.blogs.com.

Just re read your "Welcome to the church of the churchless".

[Brian Hines]

Yogendra, I enjoyed re-reading what I wrote almost ten years ago. God, I love my writing! Hope you do too.

Be sure to also read the Comment Policy prominently displayed at the top of my blog.
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/commenting-policies.html

Pay special attention to:

(4) No commercial or religious spam. Advertising, in a comment or a URL, obviously isn't acceptable. Neither are lengthy quotations from a religious scripture, or preachiness. See #5 below.

(5) No irrelevant comments. Please stick to the subject matter of a post in your comment. If you want to talk about something else, leave your comment in an Open Thread, email me with a blog post suggestion, or use the Google search box in the right sidebar to find a previous post on this blog concerning your "something else." (Note: Open Thread comments also should adhere to the policies above.)

You're welcome to comment here, but you need to comment without preachiness. If you believe that you are absolutely right, you're wrong about that. Nobody is absolutely right. Engage in conversations with a humble open mind, and you'll enjoy yourself on this blog (and in life as a whole).

[777]

But
he is right about the flashes but the real thing Sandra are these "diamonds" , containing a whole universe
and you can have them in your hand,
but you Sandra are bot initiated
so - perhaps you stay with the flashes

Yogananda - a little to solemn for this damned group- HaHa

but Gurinder recently sais
QUIT THE DHYAN

Do the words and listen to the Sound

People prevent a lot of scenario-making that way I think
so it's a good advise

If a Master shows up, . . you can't withstand, not a bit
it will bewitch you - evaporating this group :-)

It's a superpath
and guys be calm : as long as Gurinder has this awsomely charged schedule
with or without plane
He will not swcrandrel yhe 200 Million
For future decennia I really hope he will
make 200 Trillion of it
by putting on Land, Gold and Bitcoins

See the very secular MaxKeiser of "Keiserreport" on RT TV and you understand !

777

[Sandra]

777
again - I thought materialism is of no importance in your religion?
Don't you see the fraud?
You delude yourself in believing this baloney.
But I see your are hopelessly involved, so why waste energy and words ...

[777]

-

Exactly : ZERO Importance
and while everything is relatif
i add :

compared with the tremendous beauty of the giantly reverberating Sound(s)
which are behind the third eye and today
more than ever can be heard in so sweet tiny form
,

for any initiate easily to capture
for diving in - for right side ascending hitch hiking , . . .

for any honest & compassionated human
that is : free from meat uric acids
which slow down chakras rotations, sick making, . . third eye
included
a kind of Fire Wall from God, a safety measure against imposters, . . .

but most "ex" satsangis here are still compassionate, I have read

for the others
I don't know

If you say Sandra that I gave 50 years of my life by hopelessly being in a super crush of Love all seconds of it

You are so right, - most women strive for Love
You might Give it a try !

777

-

777

[Your name first]

I quote:
1)

" I m not bitter

2)

"You seem to be unduly uncritical, excusing behavior that isn't excusable even by worldly standards, and certainly not by the leader of a spiritual organization that claims to be focused on taking souls out of the illusions of material existence."

Based on your conclusion that with success comes corruption, by default. Yes to those who are corruptable. Please note there are many bad people with money in this world, that do no good with it. For a perfect master to fight this good corporate fight whilst remaining ethical is a critical example to us all. Hence you need to admit to yourself you are holding onto something, whether it be a past marriage, anger of some sort, that leaves only you angry. 2) Your premise for counter projecting your anger at Tara at 9:09 is in itself that a Master should as you see it, have no material success. Then how would he live? You yourself know the masters vow to be self sufficient. They teach us to live in the world along with others, yet the Master has no right to be a businessman? Should he apply to Walmart as an assistant? My friend, I wish you peace. When I come back and see you decided to take the site down, I will know you looked into your heart, heard the shabdh and repent for saying that praying envokes satan. Sounds like extreme right wing biblical hate teaching. Jesus was for all of us, not just those born into Christian families, but for us Radha Soami's too. Aum.

Posted by: Blogger Brian | May 28, 2013 at 09:09 PM

[Nick in Time]

Hi All,
This is indeed a very useful blog. Although, there's no conclusive evidence on GSD one way or the other on how he made a truck load of money, it's clear that there's no way, these investments have been made into a company "Religare" which meets the highest ethical standards be it from a spiritual or business perspective. So, basically, GSD does not get any redemption either ways by investing in Religare. If he knew about all the misdoings of Ranbaxy and even then he invested in this company which was formed from the Ranbaxy money does not live up to the highest morals taught to us by RSSB. However, if we say that GSD did not know about the previous dealings of Religare then what does that tell us? That he's not the Omni present master who knows everything...so either ways GSD can't find a way to redeem himself out of this financial windfall gain which has raised so many questions for many of us.

I am thankful to Brian for opening up this forum as many of us including me have followed the Guru with our minds closed believing that Guru can do no wrong and that he's the perfect master and the saint of the highest pedigree ever...

My conclusion after reading all this is as follows:
1. The RSSB teachings do help us to live a better life by helping us abstain from alcohol, all meat, fish and egg products, any kind of mind expanding drugs..
2. The RSSB teachings do help us live or atleast think about having the best moral code of conduct which we can indoctrine in our lives.
3. I personally have not found a better path than RSSB even with all the shortcomings and even with the change in it's teachings over the recent years.
4. I am not going to waste more time just trying to follow the Guru without using my own judgment and whether these teachings make sense to my life. I will follow the areas that I agree on and the ones that I don't agree to, I will just put those as part of my learning curve which I may learn and either accept or reject them over the period of time.
5. I will do my best to make more money as ultimately the Guru has taught me that it does pay to be a good businessman and make investments.
6. I will increase my efforts towards charities where I can give money directly to the poor rather than going through RSSB and believing that the money will be put to good use.
7. I will continue to pursue and learn about other religions and paths of meditation with more of an open mind than I had previously as earlier anything out of the RSSB teachings were personally not accepted by me...this is not going to happen going forward.
8. I will continue my search on spirituality as any search on spirituality is us thinking about God and I read somewhere in the RSSB literature that any time spent seeking the Lord is time well spent.

Wishing you all a Happy New Year 2014.

Nick in Time

[bastards]

bastards

[ravzzzz]

rssb master is god

[checking in]

Man this was better than satsang! Finishing up nicely with yogendra, 777 and nick.

Well done peeps.

[Richard Foulkes Jnr]

Has anyone written to Baba Ji and asked him directly about all of the above allegations about his family? Here his address.
Baba Ji
RSSB
143204
Punjab
INDIA

or if one is a Western satsangi go to India,Beas and ask him directly at the Q & A in Hostel 6. He will definitely answer all questions,spiritual and non spiritual.I have been to dera 13 times one in Huzurs time 1984 and subsequent 90s 2000s..he cleared up so many of my spiritual and non spiritual questions.ps He reads every letter personally that comes across his desk.

[Radha]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=112058516011315&id=100016215019341

Please read and share the story. Save . Save yourself . Save future. Save Nature

[Balwinder Singh]

I served in Dera Beas society for 24 years and when I brought out certain truth of irregularities and misutilising of funds I was transferred to far different place and such circumstances were created that my family was forced to stay behind and in my absence my wife was harassed, humiliated at midnight and no action taken either by the management or Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon. When my near one without my knowledge and consent wrote to Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon about the state being faced by me and give personal hearing of five minutes for which I was never given any personal hearing of five minutes but I was wrongfully with revengeful attitude removed from service and today is the state when I am without job and my family has come to starvation for just speaking the truth. Today different cases of harassment, humiliated are pending against Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon in civil courts and I am being threaten to withdrew the cases for which I have reported the matter to commissioner of police but no action taken. If Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon have read the letter for personal hearing than why can't justice be delivered to me. Anyone can contact me at my email [email protected] for more information if required.

[RS Sceptic]

Dear Balwinder,
can you please clarify.

1. What kind of irregularities did you find?

2. was your transfer from your work? or something to to with RSSB?

3. who harassed your wife? and in what was was she harrassed?

4. what reason was given for removing you from seva? and what seva was you doing?

5. Are other sevadars and those in charge aware of your case? and are they doing anything to help?

6. I am not aware of any civil cases against gurinder and I find that hard to believe. After all he is the head of RSSB and that would be bad publicity. It would he hard to have a case against him and he never gets personally involved in matters that could create such a case.