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May 01, 2013

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Brian, it's not unconstructive (I hope) to sometimes play devil's advocate. I've always found it useful to have my ideas challenged anyway, even when it sometimes feels like an inquisition!

I absolutely endorse your interest in actualities rather than abstractions. But, playing devil's advocate again, I'm always aware that the mind is programmed to allow abstractions in by the back door, upon which they rapidly take over proceedings.

For example 'neuroscience' - is that something real in the most lively sense, or is it actually a large body of the less lively stuff?

And when you talk about the physical brain and body, are those entities directly involved in your liveliest experiences, or are they less lively ideas that occur to you when you try to relay your experiences?

The sense of observing is the source of liveliness. It seems to me the liveliness behind observation stands alone, out of reach of the support of less lively principles. What feels supported is not true liveliness! The greater isn't supported by the lesser, though it does incorporate it. The lesser can become fuel for the greater, but it does not contain the spark.

I'm aware I may sound like a nitpicker or a dolt. And my words could be interpreted as an attempt to imagine a soul. But such an abstraction would not be lively. So, no, that's not what I'm doing! This is just an attempt at spill-over, to convey what cannot be said, Chuang Tzu style.

"The body has become a thing, a thing we possess"
quote

WHO possesses the body ?

Or, does the body possess us ?

Or, is Something Else involved ?

Is not consciousness an effect ?

Are we not etherial .. at the will
of the wind ?

The falling leaf is not responsible
for where the wind blows it.

It can only feel regretful should it
land on a tiny ant.

"...my words could be interpreted as an attempt to imagine a soul. But such an abstraction would not be lively. So, no, that's not what I'm doing!"

What you're doing is using exclamation points to show how "lively" you are.

I just found out I have made a very big
philosophical mistake.

I always thought if a person had an
extremely high I.Q., they could overwhelm
the scam of Radhasoami, by sheer intelligence.

It now appears insanity does indeed overwhelm
even those with extremely high
I.Q.'s

This is quite distressing.

cc, thanks for the suggestion, but I don't agree.

I didn't suggest anything, Tom. But what is it you disagree with?

Well, I *thought* I was using the exclamation mark to emphasize that I don't pose an abstract soul as the source of 'liveliness'.

I do identify with liveliness, but as the living reality of it, not as a personal attribute. The 'person' having the attribute would be abstract and not lively.

I'm aware there are claims to rarefied higher states that sound a bit like this. Is that what you're driving at? If so, it would explain your huge reluctance to really talk about any of this in any depth.

I keep forgetting a lot of people here have been traumatised by their association with weird religious sects. Still, there's something to be gained from every experience. There's pain involved whether it's through disillusionment with the sect or disillusionment as the very path itself (Krishnamurti.)

For me, enlightenment has to be a ubiquitous possibility, not something limited to a few rare beings.

Anyway, just a few 'suggestions' to fire back at you.

"For me, enlightenment has to be a ubiquitous possibility, not something limited to a few rare beings."

For me, "enlightenment" is no big deal...just the realization, discovery, reality check, if you will, that happens quite frequently to minds that are open to new information and not pinioned on some wished for "possibility".

Those who talk about Enlightenment refer to something radical, transformative, depersonalizing, and all kinds of wonderful, fantastical stuff. It's not unlike belief in God, the afterlife, etc.

The only enlightenment there is, Tom, is the realization that you are an information processor programmed to seek omniscience.

The only enlightenment there is, Tom, is the realization that you are an information processor programmed to seek omniscience.

See, this is where I disagree. To be honest I don't really know what you're talking about but it sounds to me like a belief.

I have no expectations in terms of acquiring information. The one thing I am interested in is knowing 'this' intimately - connecting up again moment-by-moment with the ground I sprang from, continue to spring from and will one day return to. And do you know, that's the root meaning of the word 'religion'?

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