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January 07, 2013


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Thanks for this post Brian, I agree with David's perspective, if I'm being honest, I think today's RS has evolved, for the better.

Over the last 2 years I've been analyzing the Satsangs in a critical manner, and I think even Gurinder is not integrating Lane's condemned notions such as Kal,perfect masters etc into satsangs/q&a.
But nonetheless Gurinder does not deny that Kal does exist. I just think Gurinder wants the sangat to move away from such notions, as today we live in a society where we're quick to point the finger at other people, and at many times I've heard satsangis always blame Kal etc.
I just think if Gurinder was to talk more about Kal etc like how Charan did, then satsangis WON'T do their meditation, with today's RS, the orientation is on frequent practice of meditation, nothing else.

"What if" seekers after truth were SUPPOSED to follow a guru for a while before realizing that THE REAL TRUTH is somewhere else? What if that is actually part of the "Path." But it's not part of the path that gets explained to you, because you have to figure it out yourself.

"What if" what you were SUPPOSED to get from your spiritual teacher is to realize that the knowledge they provide that is just one piece of the puzzle we were sent here to figure out?

"What if" something else we were supposed to realize is that there are other religions in the world, all of whom say they are the best or better or the only way to realize God. In all honesty, can we claim to believe that any real God would love one religion or mystic cult of her flock any more than another?

If we take the notion that all of us are equal and all roads lead to God (because God loves everything in the creation without ceasing for all eternity) then it seems silly to actually BELIEVE that any one religion or path is better than another.

"What if" we had to demonstrate to God that we had a willing to accept help in our search, but in the end we would have to realize this: that the only real relationship we can have with God is the one we have within ourselves, directly, and not through a third party.

Not to mention that if one were using a third party assistant, and waited 25 years for them to show up and do their job, then frankly, certainly one has waited long enough!

We expect bad customer service from the airlines and the cable company ...do we really think God would give us customer service that's way worse than the telephone company? Seriously?

It all comes back to this: why do we put more trust in someone else than we put in our own selves? Why are we so willing to believe in someone we have never met? Why are we so attached to things outside ourselves?

We all have the kingdom of heaven within us. We just have to look there.

We can take advice from someone on how to look, but that person can't look for us! They even tell us that. We have to do it ourselves.

"What if" seekers after truth were SUPPOSED to follow a guru for a while before realizing that THE REAL TRUTH is somewhere else?"

---But, what is this Real Truth, that is somewhere else? This supposed Real Truth is just another version of relative truth. True, one can go down a Path to find it. This is no big deal.....

akdouglas, I liked your comment. Have many of the same thoughts myself. Here's another "customer service" analogy.

The phone rings. Meaning, there's an indication that a conscious being is wanting to communicate with you. Great. You answer the call.

You say "hello." There's no response. Just silence. How many times do you say "hello"? How long do you wait for a reply? Pretty soon you'd hang up, figuring that either no one is there, or the person who called you is a jerk who is playing games with you.

But people keep saying "hello" to God for decades, like you said. Or even a lifetime. Without any response. So either God is a jerk who doesn't respond to earnest honest invitations to talk, or God doesn't exist, or God isn't the sort of being who communicates with humans in the way many people think God does.

Either way, it makes sense to go about your day and not waste a lot of time saying "hello" to an imaginary being.

Science and Sant Mat is a surety why just the other day I saw a commercial for Ekankar on during a marathon running of Ancient Aliens(I kid you not)

Despite being provided with enourmous evidence by Charan's secretary Babani (who used to tour with Charan) and Babani's son in law and Canadian representative and others (some of which was provided to the archives of this site) David Lane still can't bring himself to acknowledge that Charan was a fraud profiteer, often trading on his status, cheating the vulnerable out of their lands and on the backs of the impovished workforce masquerading as seva.

Just like Gurinder although Gurinder, now a billionaire, took it to a whole new level.

Gurinder's quote regarding responsibility for managing his new found astronimical wealth is revealing 'don't confuse charity with spirituality'....

David was part of an initially small group of westerners who Charan showered attention on 'while courting the west' and David in turn wrote books in praise of Sant Mat for the Western audience.

While David has since provided a valueable critical view of Sant Mat, he still cannot admit he was played and the obvious advantage he provided to Charan with his books and that Charan was knowingly a fraud opportunist.

David has provided a more critical view

Thank you all for a very enlightening discussion, both articles and comments. I am David Blaine's age and likewise was exposed early to Sant Mat (as I know it), in my case I was 17 and was loaned a three volume discussion from the 1930s. Back then, I thought I had discovered a potential path right up to the point where the imagery of past masters including Jesus and Mohammad appearing in a cave before Englishmen simply reinforced my atheism. That doesn't mean I have ever abandoned the search for a useful path, and Sant Mat has saved my sister and her family.

Agree with ping totally.

I don't think honesty is one of the
traits David is known for.

I have known him long before any clubs
started when he contacted me long ago.

Think about it. Why has he never published
a Beas history (only short papers)? The other
RS groups he got mostly right with their history.

Lane knew he could never publish Beas history
lies without Maheswari coming
to the forefront some day and making him
look bad. He guessed right.

Yet, his idealogy of Beas history is so far from
reality it is astonishing. Charan
was a sensational liar and scammer. But, he
was much more clever than Kirpal.

Kirpal wrote his own name to his books and did not hide like Charan behind proxies.

Charan had his propogandists write lie after
lie about Beas history in their books. Sensational lies beyond belief.

Literally the worst religious group historical fraud I have ever seen perpetrated on society.

Beas people are so dumb they don't even know who founded their religion.

Lane should have come forward and debunked it and trashed it, but didn't.

And, harasses those who do now.

I am convinced he will never become honest
with the history of Beas.

It seems there is a deep psychological
reason he cannot face.

It could be he doesn't want to betray Charan.

But, David was very aware Charan lied about
the history.

He should have written Radhasoami Beas Secret History, not me.

I don't want anything to do with Radhasoami
and make no money from it.


Dear Mr. G

David Lane wrote Radhasoami Reality,
which was published under Juergensmeyer's
name. He has admitted if he was a ghost writer he would never admit it. He admitted to writting 80% of it.

Hi Dogribb,
If you think RS advertising is funny listen
to this. First I noticed a large poster
walking by a laundromat (to my pizza place
next door in Cerritos, Ca.)

By chance I saw a Indian guru on the poster
and went in to look. It was Rajinder Singh of
SOS advertising his tour.

When I went in the pizza restaurant, I was
watching PGA golf on cable and one
of his adds came on to my shock during a golf game !!!

Later that night I was watching Criminal Minds
and another of his adds came on !!!

During his daughters wedding they passed
out boxes of corn flakes with Rajinder's
picture on them. No kidding. Like
Tony the Tiger.

If you think that is something you should have seen Summa Ching Hai's adds and weekly show. (The Material Girl) who donated much to Al Gore campaign and cost him the election from the news scandal. But, the news had her as a Buddhist. She was a Thakar
Singh initiate.

I must admit that i have a perverse enjoyment of Mike Williams' latest rant about me and my motives. However, he says so many things that are factually incorrect that I think it is probably important that I point out a few things:

1. I did NOT ghost write Radhasoami Reality and I have never stated such a thing. Yes, I did help Juergensmeyer on his research for the project and he says so very clearly in his introductory materials. However, he wrote the book himself and he tried his very best to be fair.

2. As for Maheshwari, unlike Mike Williams (a fake name for a real person who has threatened me on too many occasions not to have his name published), I have actually met him personally at Soami Bagh and I do think he is vitally important to the early history of Radhasoami. Indeed, I felt he was so vital that the very first time I met Juergensmeyer in Berkeley in 1978 I brought all the Maheshwari books I had and then encouraged Juergensmeyer to meet with him personally which we did.

I also encouraged Juergensmeyer to meet with Faqir Chand, since Faqir's philosophy is quite an interesting one.

3. While I can well appreciate that "Mike Williams" has a different slant on history than myself, the fact is that Beas has consistently asked me NOT to publish either my M.A thesis or my Ph.D, dissertation on the history of Radhasoami, since both of them bring up subjects that are contrarian to their viewpoint.

Indeed, as Mike well knows, I was asked NOT to publish the Unknowing Sage back in 1981, since Faqir's philosophy raises lots of doubts about Beas and other theologies.

i say all of this because despite what Mike may wish to believe, Charan never employed me as an apologist for anything. Indeed, I have taken lots of heat over the years from Beas.

But, I like "Mike" even if I disagree with some of his information. He seems to forget that I wrote THE GURU HAS NO TURBAN which is a severe critique of the Perfect Master concept and he seems to have forgotten that I pointed out that Charan was wrong to say that Shiv Dayal never smoked a huqqa.

Yet, such is the internet and such are the to and fro of such discussions.

To reiterate, it is wrong of him to say that I wrote 80 percent of Juergensmeyer's book.

I didn't write it. I simply helped in the research of it.

But Mike will believe what he will despite whatever I say anyways.

I should add a bit more commentary as "Ping" (or is that "Mike Williams" in a different garb?) also has said some quite inaccurate things.

First, I never knew Mr. Babani and I have never met his son. Moreover, the rep in Canada that resigned was a "Khanna" and had no relationship with Babani.

How Ping creates such fictions is beyond me.

Moreover, Charan never lavished praise on me and he certainly didn't encourage me to write the book I did on Faqir Chand or do the history I did on Radhasoami.

Yes, I certainly do have a love and affection for Charan but that doesn't mean that one cannot question or doubt things. Indeed, my entire corpus on Faqir Chand is a testimony to doing just that.

But I realize people will believe whatever they wish.

Such is the internet.

Again, to reiterate it is a complete fiction that Mike Williams keeps repeating that I somehow ghost wrote Radhasoami Reality.

The truth is that Juergensmeyer, to his great credit, wrote the entire book and all I did was help him on the research angle.

Unlike Mike Williams, Juergensmeyer has actually been to India many times and met personally with Maheshwari and others.

I am not ping,
Note he, or she, writes too eloquently to be me. I am an accountant by trade.

Dave admitted on RS Studies a decade ago
he played a "tremendous role" in writing
Radhasoami Reality and Juergensmeyer
"wouldn't have a clue". When he was asked if he wrote 80% of the book. Dave gathered all the Maheswari books for J which were later donated to a San Diego University library afterwards.

Dave has known me long before these clubs started and has never pointed out one thing wrong with what I have published, but uses the high school debating trick of saying he has.

Secoundly, Dave let an extremely psychotic person print my real name on his club assuming my identity as his login name.
This psychotic person was well known to have very severe mental problems and was a registered Rajinder Rep published on Rajinder's site.

That same person is here now under a different name on this club.

When this person got my name and address years ago, ball bearing were put inside the brakes of both back tires of one of my cars.

It happenned to be the car my wife uses and
the brakes failed 100% when she was going 65 miles an hour on the freeway.

It was towed in where the mechanic asked me,
"is there someone who doesn't like you ?".

Regarding the identity theft of my name
by a person on Dave's site, I almost went to the police to
stop this stalker, who still stalks me to this day.

And, lastly I knew Maheswari and his son for many years and
talked to them and have
many letters.

I was actually initiated by Dr. Prof. Agam
Mathur, former vice chancellor at Agra University, listed 8th best historian in
India and great grandson of Salig Ram and master at Peepal Mandi now.

Dave could have stopped Juerensmeyer from publishing Radhasoami Reality and did not.

Dave your club is a stomping ground for
reps from Rajinder and proxie moles from Gurinder. The dignified people that
were on your club all left after you let them get harassed by moles.

If the moles come here they will get blasted and you cannot hide behind your moles here.

I could never figure out why you were always so petrified of me. I tried to present you in a good light.

The people on your club misquote and make terrible historical mistakes and you
do not correct them, when it would only take a few seconds.

The old propoganda version of beas history has been dead over a decade.

Everyone knows what happenned now.

Further more Dave,
I didn't threaten to sue you. I threatened
to go to the district attorney and file
charges of complicity for allowing this
person to assume my identity for malicious
purposes on your club.

Identity theft is a crime. You not only
allowed this Rajinder rep to assume and use my real name, you actually egged him on.
He posted psychotic messages under my real name, as if it was me, and you did absolutely nothing.

This after I sent you the email he sent me threatening to kill me if I didn't stop saying negative things about Kirpal.

I informed you I believed this person could commit suicide, or kill someone else.

I believe you knowingly and willfully egged on an extremely sick man to to harass me and
I believe it led to an attempt on my life.

The same fellow sent threatening emails
to a sophisticated woman medical doctor
on your club and drove her off your club.

The psychotic messages which were constantly
posted both before and after for years by
this person were beyond belief.

Dave, your behaviour I believe is sociopathic.

You were acting illegally I believe,
not to mention unbelievably unethically.

Your reputation is quite remarkable. And,
I found out for myself why you have it.

Allowing identity theft is truly sick.

Egging on a severely mentally ill man whom
you know wanted to kill me, I consider unforgivable.

Thank God my wife is alive. Her brakes completely failed on a crowded freeway
going 65 and all she could do was coast to a stop.

Now are you going to tell the people here
you didn't allow this man to falsely assume
my identity with your full knowledge .. and cooperation ?

How far will you go to win a debate Dave ?

Take a good look at yourself.

You were not born smart enough to fool the world, therefore you resent it.

I consider your actions and behaviour scarry.

Your use of proxy morons to cover your ass
in debates is reprehensible.

Dear "Mike":

Sorry to report but you are making things up as you go along--a trait I have noticed in you too many times to count.

1. I never donated Maheshwari's books or Juergensmeyer's books to a San Diego library. Do you make this stuff up?

2. Unlike you, I happen to use my real name and take the requisite heat. You have repeatedly claimed and said things that were wrong and yet anytime anyone uses your real name you then threaten me with a lawsuit, forgetting in the process that I don't use your name and yet you continue to say things that are untrue.

Again, I didn't "ghost" write Juergensmeyer's book and never said anything of the sort. Yes, I helped him in his research.... that is why I was called his "research assistant."

3. Mark Juergensmeyer was working on Radhasoami Reality way before I even met him. And I think he did a wonderful job, given that he tried to deal with each sangat fairly.

You must certainly know that the present living guru at Dayalbagh (in Agra, no less) loved Juergensmeyer's book and is actually seen in the latest brochure for Spircon holding on to it.

You may disagree with Juergensmeyer and that is fair game, but don't lie about things in the process.

4. Radhasoamistudies is an open forum and anyone (even you which have posted their repeatedly in the past) can post whatever they wish, even quite nasty things against me. I tend never to delete either posts or posters.

5. Not only were you initiated by Agam (via the phone? or was it mail? since you have never met the guru in person, right?), but according to your own claims you have been initiated by a whole slew of shabd yoga gurus.

Instead of creating fictions, why don't you simply state your views without resorting to making things up?

As I have said before, I think it is good that you show the underside in Radhasoami history, but the key is not make things up as you go along.

Guys, let's call it a day on the RS history/studies stuff. I respect both of you, but we've gotten both off-topic and excessively personal. No more comments on that issue, please.

Recent Williams - Lane fight caught on tape!


David, i just purchased your book on kindle about speaking in tongues. I know someone else who had a similar experience that you did when you were 15.

You called it a mystical experience. But even though it happened automatically and you witnessed it happen to you, in what way was this a mystical experience?

I tend to think that mystical experiences are mind-blowing experiences of God. It sounds more like to me you experienced a motor automatism, albeit one that has a mysterious source.

Have you experienced the spiritual eye that Paramahansa Yogananda talked about? Have you heard the AUm sounds?

It seems to me that you are a skeptic these days but you retain an open mind to a certain extent. Do you still meditate?

What is God to you?

Hi David R,

Thanks for your note. The key thing for me when I spoke in tongues wasn't so much the act of glossolalia but rather the intensity of feeling or experiencing that something was much greater than I..... almost as if one was being enveloped into a higher dimension..... Now, this could simply be part and parcel of our neurological make-up. There is an interesting article in the new issue of SKEPTIC that goes into some detail about why people speak in tongues. As for other mystical experiences, I think we are actually predisposed to them since our consciousness is a virtual simulator and when we meditate we can access some pretty amazing stuff...... though the danger is that we might confuse our brain state for the ultimate state, forgetting in the process that we probably should be open to multiple interpretations.

Yes, I still meditate..... probably more than ever and, yes, still quite skeptical (at least sometimes!).

I was 'initiated' (? wonder what that means...) into Sant Mat in 1972, and gave it a good shot for at least 20 years - then concentrated on just the meditation (I'm still very much into meditation)

It is a breath of fresh air to read these blogs...
Of course words can only go so far...
but what else do we have... ?

Here's why I am commenting:
From even before I was initiated I remember reading what Soami Ji said (the original guru from whom the other strands developed)- He said

"Unless I see with my own eyes I do not believe in the words of the guru"

- that was my mainstay all the way through, and I used to avidly read "Spiritual Gems" - Sawan Singh's letters, which were all about this 'going within' and into these regions...Sawan Singh said that you must first accept some 'principles' in order to test whether what follows is true - as in the laboratory.

Wouldn't it have been wonderful if every satsang had started with a recital of Soami Ji's words ?

but for me I didn't see those inner regions, so I do not believe in what these gurus said... I gave it a good shot and now I know better....
Please don't write in and say my karma is not yet right ! Like the Hindus said the Universe is founded on the horn of a cow (or something as meaningless)- it's all meaningless until one has found the meaning..
In the meantime we just have to be happy and enjoy our little efforts... and as so many posts here say, to be open and appreciate somebody else's viewpoint (unless of course they are self opinionated blind indoctrinated bigots !)


David, thanks for the reply. I haven't spoken in tongues but my body has moved into different positions by itself. You feel like you could stop it at any time but you kind of just let it happen.

I don't know why the speaking in tongues thing is primarily associated with the charismatic christianity. Nor what the source of the speech is.

I don't read Skeptic magazine or look at their website any more. It seems obvious to me that weird events happen in this world to such an extent that it would be crazy to dismiss all of them. I surrender in that ignorance because i am tired of analysing everything all the time.

In any case, was the spiritual eye real to you?

You know, i am a firm believer in belief being a catalyst for any kind of mystical or psychic experience. I assume you leave all analysis and doubt behind you when you go into a meditation.

Good points you make and I especially liked your last line where you say "you leave all analysis and doubt behind you when you go into meditation."

Yes, one does try, but of course the same could be said when we make love, surf, skateboard, or bake a pie.....



Well Dave, (good name by the way!) of course it is probably nearly impossible not to analyze things when you relax into meditation since half of the brain itself performs this automatically almost for us!

This is what they call "letting go", dropping all doubt, speculation, and diving inside. Trouble is, it is nearly impossible to do this because it is the nature of the mind itself to act that way. At least, i have personally found that to be the case.

Once you have a routine of meditation going it becomes easier to relax into a nice hypnagogic state. It happens automatically despite the turbulence of the mind initially. It is that hypngagogic state of mind that interests me the most these days.

Why do some pray and get healings and others pray and die of cancer? Is God playing a trick on the human race? No, i don't believe so. However, this is such an enigma isn't it? Motor automatisms like speaking in tongues, and kundalini phenomena, as well as trance mediumship, are certainly mysterious events. I don't pretend to know any more.

"Beas has consistently asked me NOT to publish either my M.A thesis or my Ph.D, dissertation on the history of Radhasoami, since both of them bring up subjects that are contrarian to their viewpoint."

Is it possible to read David Lane's Ph.D dissertation or M.A. thesis?

I believe that there is a mixup between Sant Mat as taught in Sikhism of Guru Nanak called Sant Mat with Surat Shabd Yoga and the Radhasoami teachings. Radhasoami teachings are different then the old Sant Mat of Guru Nanak.. This is a post I did on the Radhasoamistudies site.
I hope you like it.

We know that Radhasoami mat dismantles superstitions sacred lore illusion and gets down to earth.  Removing the need of yoga of any kind and the need to meditate or pray of any kind.  Simply because every person does repetition visualization and everyone has the same sound-current with regions including a soul and god already inside them.   If we realize this one thing then nothing no matter what our situation is, everything is ok.   Since we have no free will then there is no question of the ego being a problem at all.   No country cast creed religious background good or bad behavior no penance or acts of any kind good or bad make any difference.  No matter the living specie.  Everything including the five elements return to their source automatically.  God is the source!    Running with the bulldozer or pulling against it every one goes along with it.   There is only one being that being is Anami Radhasoami there is no one else.   Everything is Anami Radhasoami  and we are nothing.  Everything is the will the pleasurable Hukum of Anami Radhasoami we are nothing.  This type of mantra is all we need if you want to do something, then this is the supreme Maha great of the greatest mantra.   Since we cannot know this state of Anami Radhasoami then by knowing we are nothing and this being is everything we develop  in us an abiding truth to live by. 

We can and should only enjoy our meditation if we do it never struggle against anything since everything is already done and is all being done by the hukum of Huzur din Dayal Anami Radhasoami fateh. Like a man who has found a job and does not look for another, we who have, are, and know we are nothing In the sence that all this work is in its end automatic. and all that remains is all the dint of Anami Radhasoamis grace and mercy then everything in this life is already been done and there is nothing left to do.
Anami Radhasoami translates as unnamed unknown without location invisable.

These kinds of words were given to Maharaj Sawan Singh from Baba Jiamal Singh that was carried on by Huzur Maharaj Charan Singh.   There is no Sant mat 1.0 2.0 3.0.   There is only one teaching very simple and complete that never needs to be changed in any way.   Every path leads us to this conclusion.

You see this way of thinking says that the elements of earth water fire air ether all return to thier source. The soul free of the elements automatically returns to its source. There is nothing that has to be done by anyone or any being of any specie. Every one returns automatically an atheist a religious person scientist good person bad person a person initiated by a saint or not anyone one that does or does not in the end automatically return to their respective source. This also includes all sub species.
Radhasoami mat was something new it is the path of no failures everyone in general all achieves everthing with out worry or effort.


It all comes back to this: why do we put more trust in someone else than we put in our own selves? Why are we so willing to believe in someone we have never met? Why are we so attached to things outside ourselves?

Posted by: akdouglas | January 10, 2013 at 11:13 PM

That was a beautiful comment from "akdouglas", made long back, in Jan 2013. Those words capture perfectly the crux of the whole issue of faith.

Oftentimes when faced with some really difficult decision, the impulse is to shift the onus of that decision on to someone else, by following another's opinion : a loved one, perhaps, or perhaps a friend, a colleague, or perhaps an "expert". And to the extent that this decision is an abdication of one's responsibility (more correctly, a desperate yet futile attempt to abdiate one's responsibility, since the responsibility ultimately does stay with one, whether one acknowledges it and embraces it or no), to that extent it is dysfunctional.

And the world is full of hucksters who are very happy to step in and take advantage of this very common failing in people, in ways both plainly dishonest and/or in more subtle ways and for less tangible gains (than money directly, or power directly).

And yet, there are times when faith becomes necessary. For example : When one is ill, one does need to have faith in doctors, isn't it?

But then, even in the case of the egregiously extreme example of a doctor and his patient : it is not unheard of that a doctor deliberately takes advantage of this trust to fleece the patient or otherwise follow a less than optimum line of treatement. Some doctors are plain greedy and dishonest. Some doctors, while not cheats, are willing enough to not the rock the boat that keeps the current medical business afloat, by going ahead with tests and lines of treatment that may not be strictly optimum. Sometimes it is simply a question of competence.

So what is the patient to do? Go for a second opinion? What are the odds that the second doctor will not be of the same species as the first?

The only fool-proof way (or at least, if not wholly fool-proof, the "best" way) is for the patient to take the time and effort to educate himself about his ailment and the available lines of treatment to at least know if what the doctor is prescribing is in line with commonly available information or not.

True, not all ailments will warrant that investment of time. A minor ailment that afflicts one may not be worth that effort. A major ailment, but which afflicts someone who isn't very important to one, may again not be worth that effort.

But if one is oneself diagnosed with a major ailment, or if one's child (for instance) is so diagnosed, then that investment of time and effort would, I think, be the only way (or at least, the best way) to ensure proper treatment.

I think that is the only "answer" to the question of faith. If a question is important to you, then you need to work at it yourself. Which is not to say you won't take others' help, but you need to work at it yourself. There are no shortcuts.

Of course, the best-of-all solution would be if you had access to a really knowledgeable and honest doctor who really cares to treat your ailment perfectly well ; and then if you could lay full trust on that doctor. That is the best of all options. But then, how will you know? It is a bit like the "benevolent dictator" thing : A very able and competent dictator, who is also entirely honest and "selfless", will probably govern a country far better than in a democracy, but how on earth are the subects, the citizens, to know?

My personal answer to the faith question is this: there are no shortcuts, not if the question is important to you.

If anyone can suggest a better answer, I am all ears.

I had never read this Thread or stumbled on to it until right now. I really enjoyed reading the old skirmishes between Mike Williams and David Lane that used to surface on Lane's Radhasoami studies group that I used to post in,....when ever I felt a need to be punished like a Masachist. I think Mike Williams is way too hard on Dr. Lane here, and mean spirited to some one who is his Brother Initiate of Charan Singh as is Brian Hines and I, all with completely different experiences, loyalties, prior religious or agnostic Paths, but as David Lane is correct, he has always posted using his legal Name, as have I, and taken the heat from his actions. ( unlike Mike Williams, i.e Zakk Zakk, i.e ??? ) All of us old posters on rss were there when Zakk was "outed" by his real Name, so it would show Mike's Credibility to be honest after so many years of being a Pseudo RSSB debunker and use his legal Name when posting. And for those new to these discussions, they should know David Lane took plenty of heat from not only me , but other members of his site that didn't approve of his allowing posters to be nasty and vulgar against each other. I can almost hear Michael Martin pleading for David Lane to repent and come back to the Path He begged to be initiated in to by Charan for so many years. I wonder if either Mike Williams, or David Lane or Brian Hines will add their honest critiques of Dr. Ishwar Puri in their writings to connect more dots to Radhasoami History? Do they add Ishwar Puri to their Cult list of Gurus?, ( He wears no Turban, but initiates for Sawan Singh and was a friend of Dr. julian Johnson).

Brian, just read through the link you posted above: "What I Believe? a position paper of sorts by David Lane".

Its a good example of how the intellectual mind can take over and control someone. Its almost like David, who was so very fortunate in having so much time with Maharaj Ji, started behaving like a spoilt and favoured child who wanted to rebel, just because he could, and get away with it. He really wanted to push the boundaries to see how far he could go. I notice that he still follows a vegetarian lifestyle as well as meditating, but he does not say anything about abstaining from alcohol nor anything about living a strict moral life.

So rebelling against the so called 'cult' of Sant Mat maybe makes life a little easier for those who want to indulge. No big deal, we are all different, although I do think he might come to regret his betrayal, especially in giving out the meditation words when we know they are endowed with the Master's love and grace.

Jen . . . you know
that the words themselves
don't matter
Coca-Cola--Rank Xerox-Obama-etc
would do the same
when given by such a pure Soul

But it is like kicking the neighbour's cat and stupid and low IQ
Like the actual todays Houston sniper

Hope you have seen the comments too, specially concerning
the poor faqir s situation

the Lane character has prevented a lot of pseudo seekers
to spoil BabaJi s time

Wow is that

This Path is full of wonder
Nothing changed since Jesus Christ, . . including betrayal


david lane is a philospher, so who cares what he thinks...

This was posted a couple od days ago on David Lane’s old RSS site that he now only uses to plug his Books and Audios on, and too embarressed to return and admit to his Devotees that he has returned to RSSB and is an obediant Gurinder loving Satsangi. Maybe he will eventually be cornered there, or even here, and be forced to debate Mike Williams, Brian Hines,, Jen, CC, Tuscon, Bob, Manjit, Tara, Osho Robbins, and all of the Exer Gang why, after 20 years of Gurinder and RSSB bashing, ......Charan has yanked his Bulldozer Chain and pulled him back to the Path, as I predicted he would do months ago, on another Thread here.

In case you don’t keep up on Lane’s old Radhasoami Studies site, here was a post that was just posted there. Lane can run, but he can’t hide for ever. It will be interesting to see him back peddle.

“I too feel it would be very beneficial if David wrote about his re-entry into the "fold", i.e., if he is indeed the Prodigal Son. Wonder if he is courageous enough to do that? Am especially interested since I was at the Dera the same time he, his wife and his sons were there. Very odd scene, surreal. Had to poke myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming! Some people there were pretty smug about his re-entry into the fold.....as in, "see, I told you so, everyone comes back to the guru eventually". Oh Sheesh. Come on David, I want to hear a good miracle story....I love miracle stories !!

Now poor Brian Hines has to keep the atheistic, skeptical conversations going all by himself !? Brian, buddy, look at David. See, there is hope for you yet. (joke) That guruly tether is apparently pretty darn long, but when he gives it a snap and yank, you are a gonner -- back to the Dera for you buddy writing books again or something.”


Lane is not embarrassed. He resigned from forum before trip to dera.

It's absolutely wrong to gloat over another person's transition. Who really knows what is going on inside someone else? It may be the most glorious moment in his life. If the old personna is now gone,forever changed, the person you are angry with no longer exists.

Our own shortcomings are crushing, when we see them rightly, but light as a feather clinging to our Master, raised above them. There is no room for anyone else. So let that person alone. Let go that attachment. It will be better for him and you.

"Of course God will forgive me. It's His job."

Heinrich Heine

It's our job too.

Hi Spencer,.....I think you must not be well enough researched on Dr. David Lane’s Anti-Gurinder, Anti RSSB I ternet Material, the last 20 plus years on the Internet to give him a Free Pass from just being released from honestly answering all the Exers on this site, PUBLCALLY, so he doesn’t miss those ( like me ) that has never privately communicated with him.

Either you are naive, or still brain washed that Lane has now really returned to the RSSB Fold and loves Gurinder and sees him as a real Spiritual Master still wearing a Turban. “ The Guru Wears No Turban.”

The Internet is still so loaded with Lane’s Anti RSSB information, such as


that any new Books or material he writes in the future will be real difficult to keep Cult Buster friends of Lane’s, such as Stephen Hassan, and a host of other of Lane’s friends who are presently silent and still in unbelief that Lane has come back to the RSSB fold.

My personal prognosis, is,......Dr. David Lane has NOT changed his mind at all, about most of what he wrote in the past.

He is only acting as a Double Agent, to appease all sides, and is only gathering up to date material to further add to his “Behind The Scenes” In The Know real activities of Gurinder Singh and RSSB internal activities, so he can include all the newest, and latest news he will include in another Radhasoami History book he will eventually have published.

If Brian Hines publically posts that he really knows, and believes, Lane has returned to RSSB as a dedicated Seva donating Sevador under Gurinder Singh Dhillon, than, I will believe it, be cause I believe Brian Hines honesty in just about every thing he has shared in his blogs.

If Lane admits any thing, he will only say he now admires Gurinder Singh because he believes Gurinder has been, and continues to dismantle the old Sant Mat One Mythology of Sawan and Charan Singh,

But, then, he will also need to back peddle on all the other statements he has said he disagreed with, and when his real inside friends, like Jay Keir, Jules Alexander, Neil Tessler, confirm that Lane really has had a new Supernatural Change of mind,......then I will tell Michael Martin to tell Charan Singh to quit yanking Lane’s Chain and not make it a Noose!

Jim Sutherland

If the Master's love reappears in someone's heart,
it's much better to accept it and jump back into the super sonic Love Stream,
instead of being held back by the guilt of the old deeds and the ego.

We can very well experience in day to day life,
ego and guilt constantly fuels each other,
making it very difficult to come forward and end the fight/anger.

Once the person accepts his mistake and gel the relation again,
he feels much much lighter.
After all, the guilt is a very heavy luggage, which once removed,
it feels like walking in the air.
Even many of our physical bodily troubles goes away,
once we do the fixes in the relations.

I can not think that Lane is going to Dera to investigate further!
I totally believe that Lane has fully returned back,
and has returned with Love.
The Love has finally overpowered the guilt, and that's the best thing.

It might take some more time for him to come forward,
and publicly accept and declare it.
he will have to kill his ego in order to do that,
and it will again be done by the Love for the Master.
I am quite sure, it's going to happen.

And I also feel the same for Brian.

I remember Kabir Saheb's verse here:

Jo chalna, raah naazuk hai,
haman sar bojh bhari kya?

If we have decided to walk on this delicate path,
Why do we have so much luggage on our heads ?

To One Initiated,......I hope you are not disappointed, and that you are well enough researched in Lane’s past Anti RSSB/ Gurinder Archieves to believe with out Due Process.

I obviously don’t know you, so don’t know if you are a well seasoned Sant Matter that knows Lane as well as many of us do on this site, including Brian Hines.

In case you are one of Gurinder's younger Satsangis, please read tnru a few of Lane’s past Articles, before you buy his new Supernatural Epiphany.


You have always given me respect, so I have no reason to challenge your belief that all is above board and well in Earth Sach Khand Dera.

But, now, I no longer need to take on hear say, or forget what I experienced, saw, and heard at my visit to the Dera 6 weeks ago!!

I wasn’t dreaming, and was not in meditation. I was THERE, in the flesh, and verified much of what I have read in Brian Hine’s, AND David Lane’s Blogs and discussion groups over the years!

Facts are facts, and eye witnesses are verifiable to be called as Jury Members.

The Jury is out. Witnesses are being called.

Is David Lane back to RSSB as a loyal Seva Donating Sewadore of Gurinder Singh Dhillon?

Or,....is David Lane a Double Agent?

Are there any Voluntary Jury Members willing to be showrn in, under Oath?

Jim Sutherland

One Initiated, ...in case you are not open to read thru the Articles on Lane’s Link I gave you, please don’t miss this paragraph in one of Lane’s Articles listed there..

“ To the extent that Gurinder Singh or any other individual has
attempted to control the free flow of information, pro or con, the
endeavor is misguided and doomed to fail. Lest there be any doubt, I would
like to emphasize that The Neural Surfer will not be shut down. This will
not occur in response to the direct or indirect demands of Radhasoami
Satsang Beas nor any other group.”

Jim Sutherland

Dear Jim,

I have read many articles from that link earlier,
the first time I accessed that page and those articles was in 2010,
not sure when these were actually written.
All these articles are based on IQ and not Love.

In recent Satsang at New Delhi, Babaji explicitly mentioned:
"How can a body be perfect, even of the Master, when it has to leave the world?"

I agree fact is a fact,
The Master Nizamuddin Auliya went inside a brothel,
and climbed up the ladders to enter the room of the prostitute,
along with a plate filled with the bottles of alcohol and meat,
is also a well known fact.

No Love is needed here,
to evaluate the fact and,
to judge the Master only a slight IQ is enough.

With Love, the equation differs in it's entirety,
and so the outcome.

Jim what happened to you in dera is you meating yourself which is now drama queen. I know people who make drama out of joke. You were cool in the past but now you are like that tAo guy.
You will also be sorry in the future that you attacked gurinder for no reason but he will be ok with you cause he is really cool guy. I lived with him and he is the nucest person i meat in my life in all my world travels and meeting with people of all kinds.

Kip and One Initiated,.....

Trying to make me feel bad, and look like the Heretic has absolutely nothing to do with David Lane’s needing to show up, and at least, try to mend a few of the fences he has put up on the Internet that drove literally scores of Satsangis away from the Sant Mat Path over the years.

His Atheism, and Neural Brain explanations of Inner Experiences and his Chandian Effect explanation of bonified Initiated Satangis meeting the Radiant Form inside has also caused multiple scores of Satsangis to give up on the Path, and drove more away from asking any Master for initiation.

So it isn’t only Gurinder and RSSB bashing Lane needs to rectify. He needs to come clean, and explain exactly WHY and How he has suddenly become blind to his past and is now a Born again Died in the Shabd Satsangi.

Regardless of what Lane does, and what a you thiink about me, my Faith is solid, and can’t be shattered, by any of you, nor ever by Gurinder!

I KNOW what I had before I ever came to Sant Mat, and I KNOW what I still have, in spite of all I have posted,

Why do you think Master Charan Singh initiated me?

Why do you think Master Charan Singh KEPT me on the Path all these years, while I was reading Lane’s and Hine’s blogs, of all the Negativity?

Why do you think my inside experiences have never dried up?

Why do you think Master Charan Singh appeared to me in full body and facial exposure, and spoke clearly to me, then listened patiently to my arguments, then again, TOLD me “if you bleed, jjust use less, Brofher.”

Lane can never convince me that Charan Dingh appeRing to mre and givi g me ecplicet Instructions was any brain fart od Chandian evfect,

Charan Dingh Wanted to keep me in my physicsl body, for some reason,......perhaps to keep the pressure on David Lane to show his true colors?

Just because he initiated Lane long before me, does not mean he has the same relationship with us.

Sam Busa was with Charan Singh physically, for years, and traveled thru the hills with Charan, and was Charan’s friend, yet Sam Busa never met, or saw Charan Singh’s Radiant Form inside, even when he was close to death!

There are more reasons that Satsangis need than being friends and initiates of a Living Master than just being initiated.

Sam was a womanizer, and his shinanagans were well known by the South African Sangat.

That did not prevent Charan from loving him. But it DID prevent him from meeting Sam inside.

I don’t have the baggage that allows me to over look thru the Fog around Lane and Gurinder to see their Halos like many of you are able to see.

I was on the Spiritual Path BEFORE I ever came to Sant Mat, and is why Charan Singh accepted me as his Desciple, and has never left me, and he has never told me that I need to become another slave to Gurinder, nor believe any of his other Initiates like Lane.

I was anchored before I knew Charan, in CHRIST. My only Dot missing was a physical body that I could recognise inside, that could verify Christ, and that was Charan’s mission to connect that Dot for me.

Gurinder isn’t even in that Puzzle at all, and his connection to Charan, Lane, and any one else, has absolutely nothing to do with me.

So, before you sentence me to spiritual death with out knowing my connection with Charan Singh, and Christ, you better find out WHY Charan Singh initiated me, and has used me at all.

You can write Gurinder Singh a letter, and ask him if he has one of his computerized Boiler Plate answers that will satisfy you.

As for Lane and me, I have never given tne Initiation Instructions to any one, as Lane has.

I have never posted the Radasoami Five Name Mantra on my blog, nor allowed Exers to make a mokery of, as Lane allowed on his RSS site.

For the old Exers, remember the “So Hung” photo in Lane’s RSS that made mokery out of the Sacred Mantra?.

So, you all may vilify me as you want, but my connection with CHRIST is solid.

Jim Surherland

Hi Jim

You must be familiar with a man named Paul.

If Christ forgave a Paul, without question, instantly, a man who promoted the persecution of Christians before he became the most famous of them all, would you do otherwise to David?

Forget about David, Jim.
Let him be, whatever God chooses to make of him.

 Jim says he was: "anchored before I knew Charan, in CHRIST."

And here you are chatting on a blog called "Churchless".

Anyway, I enjoy your rants and especially love this one (cracking up with laughter)... LOL

"Charan Dingh appeRing to mre and givi g me ecplicet Instructions was any brain fart od Chandian evfect"

Its Charan DINGH for me now, forever! Plus lots of brain farts!

BTW, I'd be very surprised if David Lane has gone back to being a fundamentalist type satsangi. I think he went to the Dera with his family to gather information and will probably write another book to update whats happening in "wonder land".

Lighten up peeps. Life is just a ride. Its not real. Its simply an illusion.

Jen,...I got timed out again before editing typos. Kal Gremlins.

I am Churchless, so am in Kindred Company. Lotsa Preachers here.

I think you have Lane’s motive for going to the Dera figured out. ( almost )

Some one must have paid his travel expenses to infiltrate the Dera to do “ Research” and gather the latest and greatess 007 Secret Agent Man information for his up coming Book.

Maybe his Professor Wife will Share editing the new Book, as she has been doing lately, with his latest books on Atheism and Pseudo Science.

I sure would love to read her honest, honest, opinion of her experience of staying at the Dera!! And the two Sons.

I imagine she must have felt the same as my wife did, when she was grabbed off the Golf Cart, and seperated from her Husband and two male Sons and escorted to the Female side of the Sant Sang the first time. She must have been secretly thinking,...” Male Chouvinists!”

It will also be interesting to read how her change of heart has come, if David has now become a Seva Donating Satsangee for RSSB.

Will RSSB be listed in their Wills?

My best “ guess” is, Gurinder is using him to edit the old Sant Mat Publications to make them look more Advaitist Oneess and less on Soiritual Duality. They are using each other, each thinking they are the User. As Gurinder said when I was there, and asked by an Indian Satsangi why Westerners get preferred treatment, and Gurinder answered, ...” They get what they want from me, and I in return, get what I want from them” ( close, as remembered, but perhaps not exact.)

But, look for a new Radhasoami History sooner or later, by David Lane , published by some high profile Publishing Organization, ( not RSSB),....and then, we will know who financed the Lane Family’s Dera visit to India.

Jim Sutherland

When Charan Radiant , . . visited us in Holland before initiations
and personally explained the path to my RESISTING wife
in dutch
while He was physically in India,

Gurinder could have done that easily to Mr. Lane

and . . . . . Brian

Nothing has changed since Jesus


In the mean time : Hiromi



Going to play this on piano in 2 minutes !!!

I didn't find it Yet but this was also interesting from ugliness
Pls start at the top

The spiritual path is automatic. The automatic spiritual path is just that automatic.
We do not need a guru we do not need to be devoted to God or any yoga of any type.
Ashes to ashes dust to dust the soul is node free to return to God. A burial rite said in the behalf of the deceased. There are axioms that do not need further proof the automatic spiritual path is self proven by all we see and can know. Religion is not needed at go back to God religion if used to deal with the fact that the spiritual path is automatic. That is the terror we face at death the fact we can do nothing and it all happens automatically. If you want to be free then study the automatic spiritual path.

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