It's a reasonable theory: that a guru who supposedly is "god in human form" isn't a liar, lunatic, the Lord, or a legend.
He or she is a loyalist, someone who carries out the role of a divine person because he or she is loyal to the person/organization who elevated them to their gurudom.
This was what I argued in "Who is the guru?"
Is there another L-word that better fills the bill? One springs to mind: loyalist. Perhaps when a successor is appointed to fill the shoes of a highly-regarded guru, loyalty both to his predecessor and to the surrounding organization prevents the newcomer from crying out, “Hey, I’m not God! I’m just a man filling the role of a guru.”
A new video by David Lane, a.k.a. neuralsurfer, adds weight to this hypothesis. It's called "Charan Singh and the Way of Surrender."
David addressed this question in a response to someone on his Radha Soami Studies discussion group. Here's part of what he said.
Charan didn't opt out of the role for a whole variety of reasons (family loyalty, I believe, being number one), and from my perspective (American, individualistic, atomistic) I think he should have done a radical Faqir Chand move and stopped the madness...
He should have said, in my opinion: GAME OVER.
Now I have had a number of Indian T.A.'s [teaching assistants] working with me for years and the more I got to understand how tight an Indian family can beit gave me a deeper understanding of the pressures inherent in such a complex......
Clearly, one can argue that Charan's loyalty to family (or, more precisely, HIS PERCEPTION of such loyalty) is what led to him to accept the role of guru and not really buck the system.
It may be partially understandable on some level, but let's be clear (and I agree with Gloria on this point), IT IS NOT ENLIGHTENED. It has nothing to do with "truth" as a spiritual path.
If Charan was to say 'game over'. there would be mass destruction amongst RS followers. Even though Chand did condemn 'perfecr masters' he still did say that doing Surat Shabad Yoga and being a good human IS the way forward.
But I respect RS masters as opposed to masters such as Rajinder,Kirpal.ching hai etc who run to the role as a guru.
Posted by: Gaz | January 26, 2013 at 02:59 AM
Have you read Shyam Dodge's stuff? He's a highly intelligent, articulate former guru, who realized he was doing it only out of loyalty, and stopped.
Posted by: David Chapman | January 26, 2013 at 10:26 AM
LOL....I was a TA, when I was in graduate school. Just loved teaching freshman chemistry lab.
That said, Brian, could you ask David if he understands the transferring process, that supposedly goes on, at the deathtime of the previous Master or GIHF? Or, is there a transfer of divine powers to the new Master? Did Charan know, up front, that he never received any GIHF powers? This is a fascinating topic...
Posted by: Roger | January 26, 2013 at 10:43 AM
Actually Roger, when Gurinder was given the seat, he was taken from 5th level to 6th level, I read this via Brians site. Some women sent him astrology and it confirmed Gurinder is GIHF. Ask Brian about it.
Posted by: Gaz | January 26, 2013 at 03:07 PM
Charan, an exemplary role model of humility, surrender and service. Sounds like a Saint to me! Yep, he was a good example of GIHF, whereas we, with our huge egos are miserable examples of gihf.
Posted by: just me | January 26, 2013 at 03:12 PM
I doubt anybody knows for sure what power Charan had or didn't have. Same goes for the current master, Gurinder.
It is unlikely that anybody understands, in the metaphysical sense, the actual transferring process or even if such a thing exists. David Lane included.
My personal opinion is that Charan did not possess superhuman powers attributed to so-called perfect masters. He was a normal human being who carried out his duties well, even admirably because his leadership role must have been difficult to bear.
I agree with the theme of Blogger Brian's comment that Charan was a loyalist who allowed himself to be presented as GIHF for the sake of the RSSB organization. To my knowledge he never actually proclaimed any exhalted spiritual status for himself. He just went along with others claiming it for him. He was sort of an honest fraud. But fraud is fraud.
(I was a follower/initiate of RSSB/Charan for more than an couple of decades.)
Posted by: tucson | January 26, 2013 at 03:21 PM
You wrote: "Charan,exemplary role model of humility, surrender and service. Sounds like a Saint to me! Yep, he was a good example of GIHF, whereas we, with our huge egos are miserable examples of gihf."
--Why are qualities such as surrender, service, humility, etc. examples of what gihf would be like? In other words why do we assume God would be humble and self-sacrificing? These are limited human concepts of what God is like and how we are conditioned to think God is like. Maybe God is selfish, greedy and power hungry.
...or maybe none or all of the above?
After all, it seems the Universe is full of relative good/evil, misery/joy, sickness/ health, growth/dissolution in equal measure and God supposedly runs the show.
So, why does an entity as vast as God give a hoot whether I have rennet in my cheese or not, or whether or not I bow towards Mecca? I mean, God has all these lions eating zebras just on our puny planet, and just the visible universe is 26 billion light years across. It could be much larger than that. That's 26,000,000,000 x 5,800,000,000,000 miles containing many billions of galaxies containing many trillions of stars possibly full of beings doing who knows what to each other both "good and bad", "beautiful and ugly".
I certainly have no answers and don't think anyone inluding those much wiser than I, have either.
I relate to the following which to me is about as close an explanation as we are likely to get since, as Blogger Brian pointed out, the cosmos could be beyond human knowing...
There is no greater mystery than this.
That being Reality ourselves,
we seek to gain Reality.
We think there is something binding
our reality and it must be destroyed
before the Reality is gained.
It is ridiculous.
A day will dawn when you laugh at your effort.
That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
In other words, that which was before you were born will be present after you die and is here now as well.
Oh, and by the way,
If you believe that if at first you don't succeed, etc....
don't try skydiving.
The greatest evidence that there is intelligent life in the
universe is that we have not been contacted.
Posted by: tucson | January 26, 2013 at 06:49 PM
MBW over on Radhasoami Studies has an important critique/clarification of what I wrote that is also part of the larger equation in trying to explain Charan's actions.
Here is the link:
Posted by: David Lane | January 26, 2013 at 09:40 PM
Here in this world we function in duality. I prefer loving kindness and humility but I still get triggered and fall prey to ego and opinions and knowingness, hence my commenting here on this blog. Maybe I do this so I can at least see my own anger and opinionated side reflecting back to me. We are all reflections of that which is.
That which we are within is drawn to that which it resonates with. If it is unknowing and empty it will be attracted to that which is empty and unknowing. If it is loving and kind it will then be at oneness with its true loving and kind essence.
Posted by: just me | January 26, 2013 at 10:09 PM
"....when Gurinder was given the seat, he was taken from 5th level to 6th level..."
---being taken from a 5th to a 6th is just another relative path. No big deal.
".....Some women sent him astrology and it confirmed Gurinder is GIHF."
---Astrology confirming a GIHF? More relative confirming and truthfulness. No big deal.
Posted by: Roger | January 27, 2013 at 10:28 AM
".....whereas we, with our huge egos are miserable examples of gihf."
---I would just love to be a miserble example of a GIHF!!!!!! I could fail miserably at skydiving, and then try try it again.
Posted by: Roger | January 27, 2013 at 10:38 AM
Absolutely fabulous Tara
I am with you all the way! Your Friend
Posted by: Moongoes | January 27, 2013 at 12:56 PM
You know absolutely nothing about Sant Mat. How about actually reading some Sant Mat books so that you can be better informed?
Posted by: just me | January 27, 2013 at 01:54 PM
I think Charan Singh said that he was a Saint and these are his words in his book The Master Answers:
“Saints can do whatever they like. There is generally no restriction on them, but they generally do not like to break the law of nature”.
Posted by: Juan | January 27, 2013 at 02:35 PM
"I certainly have no answers and don't think anyone including those much wiser than I, have either."
If they're "wiser" than you, why wouldn't they have answers you don't?
How do I know when someone is wiser than I? If someone sees something I missed or mistook for something else, he's wiser. But if he doesn't show me my error, my inattention, naivete, or bias, I feel sufficiently wise until otherwise informed.
Wisdom is the acknowledgment of foolishness, so nobody is wiser than I when I'm onto what a fool I was, and nobody is more foolish than I until then.
Posted by: cc | January 27, 2013 at 03:04 PM
I haven't heard any "answer" to the big questions yet from anyone. The best is see for yourself if there is anything to see and even then it may not be the Truth. I think this is partly why Blogger Brian started this blog. Maybe someone would show up with a satisfactory "answer". As a result he is pretty much an atheist with science as the final frontier. Me, I think there is "God" but it is not anything I can explain or put a finger on or anything like anything anyone has said. It seems to permeate everything and yet it is nowhere to be found.
Posted by: tucson | January 27, 2013 at 05:56 PM
Yes it permeats everything and yet it is nowhere to be found.
Or sometimes it is to be found..also.
And sometimes not.
It, God, Ocean, Conciousness,Love, is in fact always there.
Sometimes life seems harsh to us then it is difficult to adjust to that. And that it is good as it IS..anyhow anyway..
Some faith has to come in here and there..
And sometimes..its just there..
Posted by: Sita | January 28, 2013 at 05:50 AM
"I think there is "God" but it is not anything I can explain or put a finger on or anything like anything anyone has said. It seems to permeate everything and yet it is nowhere to be found."
Everything on earth is permeated by earthliness, but I wouldn't call it "God". Isn't it enough to know you'll never know enough? Why pretend to know more than you do, justifying the pretense by calling it "faith"? Better to admit ignorance than to cover it up with religiosity.
Posted by: cc | January 28, 2013 at 09:15 AM
Thanks just me,
Correct, I know but a little about Sant Mat.
In addition, you are correct, reading some books would help in a relative understanding of Sant mat. However, I'm not looking for any additional relative understandings.
While I have you on the line, is the GIHF term still being used today in Sant Mat? That is, as a reference to the current Master? I'm not finding fault with the reference, just find it interesting.
Posted by: Roger | January 28, 2013 at 10:26 AM
"Everything on earth is permeated by earthliness, but I wouldn't call it "God"."
--I would. But what the term "God" symbolizes to me may be different than what it symbolizes to you. This "permeation", to me, is not physical and yet it is part and parcel of what is perceived as physical. It is a perception I have which is very real to me, but I acknowledge that it could be delusional.
"Isn't it enough to know you'll never know enough?"
--Well, no. That isn't enough for me. But I can accept it. And, who knows, someday I may think I know enough.
"Why pretend to know more than you do, justifying the pretense by calling it "faith"? Better to admit ignorance than to cover it up with religiosity."
--I assume you are speaking generally and not to me specifically because I have no faith at all religious or otherwise. Well, I guess I have some faith or I wouldn't get in the car and drive down the highway.
I generally feel as Sita expressed above. Good comment.
Posted by: tucson | January 28, 2013 at 11:16 AM
"... is the GIHF term still being used today in Sant Mat? That is, as a reference to the current Master?"
As a satsangi of 40+ years I have only come across this term being used here on this blog. I personally don't even like the word "God" having never been a religious type. Maybe American satsangis refer to the Master in terms of being GIHF. The Masters never express themselves in this way.
Christians who then become satsangis seem to keep their religious attitude. I don't mix much with satsangis and so avoid all their "guest house gossip" as Charan used to call it.
Posted by: just me | January 28, 2013 at 02:42 PM
I want to thank you for posting this film of Charan put together by David Lane.
I must admit I fell in love with Charan again from watching it. I love his unassuming, heartfelt attitude. Obviously it says something about my own attitude and I don't see him as being a fraud.
Posted by: just me | January 28, 2013 at 03:01 PM
I could be mistaken, but as I recall the terminology "god in human form" is used in some of the RSSB literature. I have no inclination to dig into a few of the books I have saved in the garage under some old car floor mats, but if I were to take a wild stab at it I think Julian Johnson was one who used those words.
Charan, like many who are dishonest about some things, still had many fine qualities and was a gentleman.
I recently saw a program about Jeffrey Dahmer, the serial murderer and cannibal. In interviews he appeared gentle and intelligent, even "normal".
Please do not construe that I am literally equating Charan Singh's actions to those of a serial killer/cannibal.
Posted by: tucson | January 28, 2013 at 05:31 PM
I recently moved and gave away all my Sant Mat books. Just had a look on the internet.
Brian I hope you don't mind if I mention this. I searched "god in human form" and found this website sovereignparrot.com.
There's a quote about your forum:
"There is a blog site called Church for the Churchless where initiates of a contemporary living master gather to discuss and criticize the path of the masters. They were once ardent disciples and have now decided to reject the path which they once accepted. "
I like this one:
"During one evening Q & A session, at the Dera in 2001, I heard a lady tell Master Gurinder Singh that she found it difficult to believe he was God. His reply, in essence, was that she was the only sane person in the room."
Posted by: just me | January 28, 2013 at 08:41 PM
"During one evening Q & A session, at the Dera in 2001, I heard a lady tell Master Gurinder Singh that she found it difficult to believe he was God. His reply, in essence, was that she was the only sane person in the room."
--And the ones who believe Gurinder is gihf will say. "See how humble and honest he is. He must be gihf!"
Others say it for him without the guru having to utter a peep.
Posted by: tucson | January 28, 2013 at 10:38 PM
The shepherd knows very well his job, How to guard the sheep and to bring new ones to the flock.
Posted by: Juan | January 29, 2013 at 03:17 AM
Yes, since most people are sheep, some people are compelled to play shepherd. Then, when one of the sheep sees through the wool over his eyes and starts bleating, the rest of the sheep drown him out. What the flock ya gonna do?
Posted by: cc | January 29, 2013 at 08:40 AM
This is the issue,
"Others say it for him without the guru having to utter a peep."
---In the Sant Mat books, does the Master repeatly tell the devotees to stop the GIHF reference?
"As a satsangi of 40+ years I have only come across this term being used here on this blog. I personally don't even like the word "God" having never been a religious type. Maybe American satsangis refer to the Master in terms of being GIHF. The Masters never express themselves in this way."
---You opened pandora's box. With your 40+ years of devotion and meditation, why are you surfing the internet and blogging? Not a crime, however, why not spend that time in meditation? With you 40+ years, you should have a keen understanding of the purpose of meditation and the accurate understanding of the role of the master in one's meditation process. So, just me, write a comment, in your own words, the questions about RSSB meditation. Please do this.
Posted by: Roger | January 29, 2013 at 10:07 AM
just me, it seems that you aren't very familiar with the RSSB/Sant Mat literature. I've given away almost all of my books, but kept the abridged version of Philosophy of the Masters by Sawan Singh, also known as the Great Master.
Here's some quotes from "The Necessity For a Living Master," showing that the gurus themselves consider themselves to be God in human form. (Sawan Singh was the guru of Charan Singh, of course.)
"The perfect Master is the Lord in human flesh."
"A Master has assumed the form of a man, but he is not an ordinary man. Internally He is always in conscious contact with God. To our limited understanding, the Master may appear to be finite. Actually, he is Infinite. He is the medium for attaining God-realization."
"A Master has two forms. Externally he is a human being; but internally he is, in fact, God.
"Devotion to the Master is, in fact, true devotion to the Lord."
So anyone who says that the "God in human form" doctrine isn't a central part of Sant Mat/RSSB teachings doesn't understand those teachings. This is a fact, from the Great Master's own words.
Posted by: Brian Hines | January 29, 2013 at 10:35 AM
You inquired: "In the Sant Mat books, does the Master repeatly tell the devotees to stop the GIHF reference"
--In the books devotees are exhorted to revere the master as god. This is at the core of the teachings and is fundamental to them. No perfect (GIHF) master...no path. So, devotees are encouraged to think of the master as GIHF but this terminology, in my experience, is not commonly used amongst devotees when speaking of the master. It goes without saying. The master is usually referred to as "master","maharaji", "huzur", "babaji", etc. So, there is no need for the master to discourage the GIHF apellation.
Roger, you seem to continue to have some curiosity about Radha Soami teachings. I know you are not interested in becoming one of the sheep and would prefer to live your life as a strategically placed beer can, but you may find it of interest to read one of the RSSB books as others have also suggested
Posted by: tucson | January 29, 2013 at 03:00 PM
Yes, good point. Does anyone need a master? Do you need directions? Your life will transpire, like it or not, regardless of who you give credit to for the way things turn out. So take responsibility for what you do...especially when you point to someone else.
Posted by: cc | January 29, 2013 at 03:05 PM
--- “With your 40+ years of devotion and meditation, why are you surfing the internet and blogging? Not a crime, however, why not spend that time in meditation?”
I have plenty of time to meditate and also surf the net. I read this blog because I want to understand why others have turned against RS. Everyone questions, that’s what the mind does. 40+ years imo is no big deal. It takes many lifetimes to progress on the inner path. (Okay, I know people here don’t believe in many lifetimes.)
I have an accurate understanding of the role of the Master. Why should I explain to a mere curiosity seeker? If you are interested do your own investigation.
Yes, thank you for those quotes. I was being specific about the words “God in human form”. I don’t remember reading those exact words in the RS literature. Perhaps they are there. I have not heard any satsangis using those words and I have only heard them repeatedly on this website.
--- “So anyone who says that the "God in human form" doctrine isn't a central part of Sant Mat/RSSB teachings doesn't understand those teachings.”
I don’t understand this fixation about GIHF. My understanding of Sant Mat is that we are all Shabd, that is our essence and we are all that. If people put a teacher on a pedestal that’s their problem. I always saw the Master as a spiritual guide and I’m happy to have learned from him.
--- “In the books devotees are exhorted to revere the master as god.”
I don’t agree. “Exhorted to revere”!
I did not have this experience. If this was your experience, it’s your own perception and I totally did not get this from the books. We understand the teachings according to our own particular mindset.
Posted by: just me | January 29, 2013 at 07:13 PM
Just me, did you read the quotes from Sawan Singh, the Great Master?
"Devotion to the Master is, in fact, true devotion to the Lord."
That's the words of a guru, talking about himself. As well as other Masters.
How can you say that satsangis aren't "exhorted to revere"? The gurus exhort their disciples to revere the gurus. Sawan Singh was very clear about that.
I think you are trying to make Sant Mat into your own creation. That's fine; it's what I encourage on this blog: spiritual independence. Just understand that what you're practicing isn't Sant Mat as taught by the Great Master, who isn't called that name for no reason.
Posted by: Brian Hines | January 29, 2013 at 07:27 PM
---"I think you are trying to make Sant Mat into your own creation."
I agree. I take from Sant Mat what resonates with me.
Posted by: just me | January 29, 2013 at 08:14 PM
Brian, judging from the response you've gotten here, you might want to start a blog about gurus. The subject brings to light the dark and murky notions folks entertain about guidance from those assumed to be wise, enlightened, and what-not.
Posted by: cc | January 30, 2013 at 03:45 PM
I think that there is a lot of similarity between Santa Clause and Charan Singh and God.
-all three are cultural systems of lies to comfort people in fear
Santa and Charan play the role of the imaginative actor God knowing the truth
God is the best because as an imaginary person he is allways there and is perfect while the other two can make mistakes. The actors realise this and refer to God as the perfect imaginary actor that they can only resemble.
The question remaines if we need this God person actor or are we able to grow up? ;)
Posted by: nietzsche | February 01, 2013 at 11:01 PM
Or do we need to grow up?
Posted by: nietzsche | February 01, 2013 at 11:28 PM
The fear of eternal non-existence after death is a legitimate fear, imo, to the average mind. Every aspect of life is uncertain and tenuous. At any moment we may die, get a terminal disease, become crippled or have the above happen to those we love or care about.
So, don't you think it is understandable, even if it is not very logical, that people would seek to grasp Santa Claus, religion, a master, saviour, a faith or guru in the face of this uncertainty..especially when many others tell them their chosen belief is true or they have grown up in a culture or family with traditional beliefs handed down and presented as Truth for generations?
It takes a certain kind of surrender and courage to calmly face death, or any kind of calamity that could occur at any moment without the belief in and support of God, Jesus, Allah or the master. It takes courage and surrender to set your boat adrift without oars or a rudder.
Right now an artery in your brain (or mine) may be about to burst causing permanent paraysis, blindness and the rest of our life spent in the dark supported by a respirator while unable to move, hear or speak (I certainly do not wish this to happen to you nor do I think it is likely).
And then, when death finally comes, you slip into eternal non-existence which WILL happen to you, me and to everyone we love which we WILL witness if we live long enough.
Are you OK with all that? Are you ready?
I'm not sure I am.
This is why people are drawn to faith. They need the assurance that it's going to be OK, that there is a guiding hand in all this and a purpose. But there may not be.
The need for God, for faith, for a master, for heaven and an afterlife is the curse of the self-reflective mind and linear dualistic thought.
"I" am now but one day "I" won't be.
It is difficult to "grow up".
It might be helpful to find out who and where this "I" is. Is it real? What remains if it is seen to be imaginary like Santa Claus?
Find what remains.
What remains could be the Truth.
Posted by: tucson | February 02, 2013 at 10:59 AM
Slowly very slowly I might grow up :) nothing more, nothing less. Thank you for sharing your thoughts that are clearly inspired by the immensity of the being that we are. And I feel comfortable that my information content is not bound by time or space. I'm not totaly sure what exactly I am but I think it is hard for us to realise how very independed we are.
Thinking of a line I heared. Why did you ever think of me not as your best friend.
Very best to my friends ;)
Posted by: nietzsche | February 02, 2013 at 04:10 PM
Still this Charan is a beautifull being as a person judging from his picture...
Posted by: nietzsche | February 02, 2013 at 04:16 PM
A few more thoughts. When we see a beautiful being it may well be that they are a beautiful being, but it is also a reflection of our own being. In fact, I think, it is our own being. What we see is ourSelves or, our Self. Don't you think?
I saw Charan quite a number of times in person, shook his hand and interviewed with him privately. He had a pleasant, calm bearing about him. Also, he was always very clean with fresh clothes and lots of bright whites with the punjabis, turban and all. This, combined with his demeanor and our belief in who we thought he was, certainly could raise him in our eyes to lofty heights. Perhaps beyond what was really there.
Posted by: tucson | February 02, 2013 at 08:39 PM
The major Guru to admit he was not a Guru
was Dr. Lal of Dayal Bagh. When
he was given successorship, he announced he
would only take over as administrator.
When I attended their satsangs, his picture was so hidden, the satsang
leader actually took me in a back room to show it to me.
I never took initiation from this group because the Guru admittted he was not a Guru.
Despite this, it appeared to me his followers did believe he was a Guru.
That he was being humble, or modest.
Dayal Bagh was the largest RS Group at the
time of Sawan's death, and Dayal Bagh
was a completely scam group.
It is basically 99% Indian group.
Worst I have yet studied. So much so,
I consider it evil.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 03, 2013 at 02:15 AM
I have this little nephew that was told about Santa Claus and I didn't like that at all (probable because my own experiences with Gurinder). But when they told him one day that Santa was not real he tried to hang on to the believe for a little while and it was difficult for him to let go of this idea. It was very interesting that his little mind had no difficulty with all the unexplainable things around Santa and dismissed all the easy explanations at first.
Sometimes I think we should have let him believe in Santa and invent some special story that only in his case he was able to see the truth that Santa was real while all the other children where not initiated by Santa and therefore they could not see like him. :)
Or we should have taken some old wisdom about a current and a smell that only he was connected to by Santa himself and every time he would close his eyes and open his nose that he would smell the current and would travel to Santa land with the smell.
Another story. A friend of mine had to lead a group of young people but they where with two and that was to little to lead the group of children. Also they did not want to take the blame for all the shit that would happen. So he seriously invented a third person that could not be present but that made a plan for the weekend that they would have to follow. It was an ingenious plan and the children sometimes blamed the maker for all the trouble that they had to go through. My friend only smiled and said we have to follow this plan because that third person is very wise and knows exactly what is right.
They had no trouble handling the group and could function as the guardians while the mastermind took all the blame. Works very well with older people too. In the end this third person really existed just like Santa Claus.
I think it is partly because people treated us like garbage that we started to forget what we are.
Why has anybody told you that you are anything less than beautiful.
Posted by: nietzsche | February 03, 2013 at 03:20 AM
There were 50 gospels of the bible.
Only 4 were chosen to be used in the official bible of Christians.
The gospel of Peter was even hidden.
These books are being unearthed and reveal
much unknown facts about Jesus.
One gospel has Jesus kissing Mary Magdelena
and others say she was his closest confidant
and actual person left to guide others, not
Peter. She actually wrote a gospel herself.
But, 400 years later, the male dominated church decided to leave her gospel out
of the bible, including Peter's.(The first Pope?)
Other gospels say Jesus suffered no
pain on the cross.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 03, 2013 at 03:32 AM
Coin of the Cista Mystica, winged snakes coming out of a basket. 50 B.C. Sometimes called the Cadeuceus now used by physicians.
The most common symbol on ancient coins from 500 B.C. We know it as kundalini.
Cistae mysticae were used in the initiation ceremony of the cult of Dionysus,
and many many others.
This is a Greek coin. Alexander the great counquered Egypt around 330 B.C.
Alexander then turned his troops and went to India at the Beas River.
He was Greek and left Greek Ptolemy
in charge of Egypt. Cleopatra was the last of his lineage and she was 100% Greek.
But, the trade routes were there many
hundreds of years before Alexander went to India.
Alexander is often seen with the horns of Ammon on his coins, as a God. Kundalini symbols.
Ancient coins are loaded with occult symbols.
There is nothing new folks.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 03, 2013 at 05:38 PM
In fact, I think, it is our own being. What we see is ourSelves or, our Self. Don't you think?
Moon:When you see Michael Jackson dancing do you see your selff dancing are you dancing?
Not me, i clearly see him dancing and me enjoying or not in that.
Posted by: Moongoes | February 03, 2013 at 10:38 PM
Thanks for the BBC documentary about the history of Christianity! Nice because wiki is very clear that most of the gospel where probable written at least at 100 ac and not by the disciple themselves.
But if you take the interpretation by one of the writers that didn't make it to the bible he said there where two Gods. The old Jewish God and the new God Jezus. Now if you contradict Satan to the old God than you might wonder if there are no resemblances between Jezus and Satan? I mean both didn't like the rules that made everyone guilty and that made the church hang everyone.
Recently I met some followers of Satan in the music metal scene and they didn't hurt a fly and where nice people to talk to. They just did what they wanted to do and in fact they where more compassionate than the righteous vampier suckers that called themselves followers of the law and in fact sucked on the energy of the wrongdoers.
I think this guy Satan or Kal is blamed to much these days ;)
Posted by: nietzsche | February 04, 2013 at 01:03 AM
How to Go "Inside"
For 4 decades now I have investigated the occult.
Hundreds of groups and Gurus. Everything from pranahuti,
to shakti pat to Santeria. I have studied the advance
of the secret occult societies through ancient history
to modern times.
THE BIG PROBLEM
First hand experience of any kind, to at least indicate
to the seeker some type of inner worlds exist, or at least
inner dimensions of the mind.
The seeker wants something ..... anything. But, the vast
majority of people never never experience anything,
even after decades of effort.
Even if you take courses on astral travel they teach you
on how to go inside they will not work.
Modern day gurus are a joke and cannot help you.
Even if you use every technique printed on how to
astral project, it will not help you.
So, I have been looking for a technique that will work
for everyone. That does not use yoga, gurus, or kundalini.
That produces results right off the bat.
And, I have found it. The results are spectacular
and you can start progressing from day one.
And, now the question is, do I want to release this ?
Of course I would give the technique for free. Why ?
So that masters and gurus would never be necessary
and all religious beliefs dispelled.
I will be 61 years old soon. So, my intentions are, I will
write my first book. This will still be several years away
and I will inform my wife, should I die unexpectedly,
she is to take my work to a publisher.
I expect this book to be a book very few people will
read at first. But, over the generations it will
pick up steam.
I want to test this method and give exact details of
both the process and what one will see inside. This will
take me years, even though I could give the process to
enter inside immediately.
The key is, it must work for everyone. And, I must check to
see if it is not dangerous before release to the public.
It involves no yoga and no exercises and no beliefs.
It takes 5 minutes. I can't give this to the public now,
because some guru would undoubtedly get it and immediately start
It has to come out complete and total.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 04, 2013 at 04:09 AM
Brian-do you believe in karma?
Posted by: Gaz | February 04, 2013 at 07:30 AM
Gaz, I believe in cause and effect. That's "karma," I guess. I don't believe in supernatural karma, reincarnation karma, karma that follows us from life to life. Because there's no good reason to believe that "I" (or anybody) even exists as an independent entity, much less that this "I" continues on after death.
Posted by: Brian Hines | February 04, 2013 at 09:38 AM
There are no independent entities.
That is true. But, the people whom
realize this, feel compassion on those
It is imperative those whom do, help
the pain and suffering of this world.
Pain is real to those whom experience it.
From ants to humans. There is no difference
There is no Brian and no Mike Williams.
There are only ideas which effect the world.
It is wrong ideas of perception which must
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 04, 2013 at 11:17 AM
Gurus in Australia are known as a "kang" gurus because they jump to conclusions and keep their profits in a pouch.
Posted by: cc | February 04, 2013 at 12:18 PM
Very good message.
"There are no independent entities.
quote Brian That is true. But, the people whom realize this, feel compassion on those
that cannot. It is imperative those whom do, help the pain and suffering of this world."
Posted by: Roger | February 04, 2013 at 12:37 PM
Mike-Are you based in California? I'm investigating a scammer who is based in Burbank,California, you might know her.
Posted by: G C | February 04, 2013 at 12:58 PM
Hi G C,
Give her name and the group name.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 04, 2013 at 01:32 PM
Hi nietzsche and Roger,
Sorry I missed your post and just saw it.
There are many types of Satan worshippers.
Satan was called Set in ancient egypt.
The Freemasons worship Set in the advanced
In higher initiations they actually imbibe
the Satanic power. Both president Bush's have
received this power via their group at college.
I have spent quite some time in the study of
Masons because they control the world central
banks. Many many presidents were Freemason
and many important founding fathers such as Franklin
and Washington. The kings of England are long standing
Freemasons, as are the Rothschilds.
Masons are deists.
They believe God created the universe, but does not
interfere in its actions. Our acts alone determine our
Their religion is ancient Egyptian and that's why
they wear a Muslim cap with half moon because they
are somehow connected remotely.
Masons control the courts and cannot convict another
Mason. They control basically the entire world along
with the Vatican.
Luciferian means basically these people believe they
have the hidden God within them and are God sort of speak.
That's why Radhasoamis are Luciferian, not to mention
they practice kundalini surat shaba yoga.
Regarding the Bible, Judas also wrote a gospel and they
have 85% recorded and carbon dated. Mary Magdelena was either
Jesus mistress, or his wife. The gospels confirm she
ws Jesus closest companion.
Mary died in France and it is unknown if she had Jesus child.
A large church holds her grave tomb.
It is possible Jesus went to India, as Thomas opened his church
there as Jesus desciple. This is confirmed.
But, there is indeed some very good evidence Jesus went to England
with his uncle, whom was a tin trader. The religion of the ancient
Druids and Christianity are very close.
Mary Magdelena and Peter and Thomas and Judas all had their
gospels deleted around 400 AD by the male dominated church.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 04, 2013 at 06:30 PM
Mike Williams....your comments have been a wonder to read. Clearly; you are a man who has devoted a lot of time and effort in researching the Truth. I don't know if I have the patience that you seem to display. Have you had a spiritual experience in that; have you ever gone within or is it something you care not to speak of?
Posted by: The9thGate | February 05, 2013 at 07:34 AM
Hi 9th Gate,
Your pen mane is one of my favorite Frank Langella,
Johhny Depp movies. You could not have a pen name
like that unless you understand what most people don't.
I have taken one of the most remarkable journies
in the history of the world through the occult.
Feel free to bring up the most advanced obscure
subjects and I will tell you about them.
From Gurdjieff to Palo Mayambe, I have studied
the most obscure cults and been a member.
Deep down the rabbit hole I have gone. ALL
THE WAY TO THE BOTTOM.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 05, 2013 at 09:19 AM
Hi 9th Gate, (cont. from above)
The within is very much different from
what Gurus tell you. The within has no
morals and no ethics.
It is a fantastic world of debauchery.
Super sexual, with all ones fantasies of wine and women, beyond comprehension.
The Babylon empire.
The mind can project the most spectacular
lifestyle on the inner planes, or the holiest rhelms.
One can live and play there in outrageous
So, the Gurus tell you to remember Sach
Kand. Indeed, you will experience Sach Kand
according to your preconceived images, even
if it is only a sphere of light and sound.
You make sach kand according to your preconceived notions and experience it.
Or, you can find yourself at the Kronic Bar
surrounded by voluptuous women.
You can stare at the sky in broad daylight
and see the stars.
But, but sach kand and the Kronic Bar
are the same.
There is an X Factor.
Something Else, no one expects. Far
from the phantasies of the inner panorama
of of phantasmagoria.
Not light and sound.
But, direct contact, here and now, at
this very moment, without prequalification.
The FINAL LEAP.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 05, 2013 at 09:49 AM
Hi 9th Gate, (cont. from above 2 posts)
You are NOT THAT. There is a seperation.
It seems we are woven in the fabric of the
universe and must be THAT. All logic
dictates this oneness.
But, fact is, we are not.
Something Else is there. The only reason
we can't see it is, we are in a deep hypnotic trance.
We do not need relgion, we need a hypnotherapist.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 05, 2013 at 10:08 AM
Hi 9th Gate, (Cont. from 3 posts above)
You may find it funny, but in the original
gospels Jesus tells his 12 disciples,
"You are all a bunch of drunks on wine."
"When you sober up you will realize."
Also, in the original gospels one of the
12 disciples says to Jesus,"women are wicked
and lecherous, can heaven ever be for them? "
Jesus answers, "I will turn the women into
men so they may be fit."
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 05, 2013 at 10:21 AM
Hey Brian & co what do you think of this
I like it, its a different approach.
Posted by: Gaz | February 05, 2013 at 01:31 PM
You Create Your Own Heaven
Do you want to go to Ananmi Lok
and see the light brigher than a million
suns and hear the unheard sound ?
Or, do you want to go to the Kronic Bar
and swing with wild women and complete
The choice according to legend is yours.
Even Swami Ji admitted in his last words,
everything he has told you is so at the
last moment of life you will remember God.
There is only one problem. The heaven of
the Saints is boring. Do you really want to
live FOREVER listening to sound and seeing
Or, would you rather watch Babe Ruth hit a home run and Ty Cobb slide into second base on closed screen TV at your local dive ?
The Saints are the most vain people on the
earth. They are very unsaintly in fact.
Could you imagine living with these freaks
for all eternity ?
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 06, 2013 at 03:37 PM
It has been my experience over 4 decades,
that the Saints resent you
for kissing their ass' and making a fool of yourselves.
WHERE THERE ARE SAINTS, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY
The chamber of the heart of Saints ....
is stone cold.
Do not become an iceberg like your Guru.
Their heaven is VOID OF LOVE.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 06, 2013 at 03:54 PM
Blood is thicker than water
Posted by: Dogribb | February 07, 2013 at 07:15 PM
Posted by: nietzsche | February 08, 2013 at 03:48 AM
I think it is a warning for sociopath sign that Gurinder does not adress all the questions that arise here on this forum.
If he was like Charan he would have been glad to explain about the millions and the disappearance of some hospital. He would have been glad to clarify but his reaction is to warn people for the internet as if he is under a mean kind of attack.
I do feel for him because in his mind he does what seems right in a very rigorous way but he lacks a lot of compassion and in the end he takes care of the monney and his cars.
But charming he is too.
Posted by: nietzsche | February 08, 2013 at 05:08 PM
Just think of it. These Godman are clearly different from the most of us. Also often they get away with a lot of power, sex and money and social status in the end. They even are allowed to strip others form their ego's. What kind of people might fill this role?
Also there is a lot of misconception about sociopaths. Most often they are not violent or criminal. They are just different in the brains perfectly suited to be a Godman without guilt or shame.
Its funny to realize that what we see as the most conscious being might not have a conscience at all :)
I liked rule number two from 'how to spot a sociopath':
#2) Follow your inner truth, not some external guru. Any guru who demands your obedience is a false prophet. A real teacher is one who empowers you and sets you free to explore your life experience with complete freedom tempered by a code of morals and personal responsibility.
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html#ixzz2KUMIPYC9
Posted by: nietzsche | February 10, 2013 at 01:59 AM
Mike Williams. Thank you for taking the time to write your comments. Firstly...the Ninth Gate is one of my favourite films and the orchestral score by Wojiech Kilar is just sublime what to speak of the performances of Frank Langella and Johnny Depp. Moreover...the underlying theme of a man that needs to satisfy his curiosity to know esoteric truth; the allure of power to experience the Alpha and Omega first hand. Forgive my ramblings....
Also; Forgive my ignorance but are you suggesting that we "create" our own Sach Khand which is relative to our innermost desires as opposed to something that is constant for each practitioner of yoga?
Have you ever dabbled in Surat Shabd Yoga? My experience has been fruitless and I left RSSB many moons ago and yet there is still this compulsion to go within or seek something "otherworldly". What have been your motives for wanting to experience spirituality and when did you become a seeker of truth?
Posted by: The9thGate | February 10, 2013 at 03:13 PM
Hi 9th Gate,
I have been initiated by at least 7 Radhasoami Gurus.
There are over 30 places in the brain
that we use when thinking and experiencing.
Yet we feel as if we experience at one spot
all the time. We mistake this spot for
the self because it appears stable.
You are not one, but many.
The subconscious mind projects dreams
in sleep. The astral is nothing more than
lucid dreaming, which does not come from
the same spot in the brain we normally
So, if you subconsciously think of Sat lok
as light greater then one million suns with
the bagpipe sound, you can actually go
right there, without the intermediaries.
There is no progression unless you believe
there is. You experience what your preconcieved notion is.
You create your own heaven or hell.
Posted by: Mike Williams | February 10, 2013 at 05:08 PM
That's just what a Surat Shabad Guru said:
Check it out
Posted by: Gaz | February 11, 2013 at 04:07 AM
No one will ever know what guru is what shabd is what darshan is what god realisation is or self realisation or the effects of concentrated meditation is unless you actually accept the teachings.
Concentrate your mind as taught in initiation.And do the actual meditation.Once you have experienced the first stage,secon and gone beyond mind and maya intellectual gymnastics, and ACTUALLY GONE all the way to sach khand ,then you are in a position to comment about God In Human Form.Because YOU ARE Radha Soami.
Lord of the soul.Until then one is just full of conceptual b/s building castles in the sand.It only takes less than half a second to reach Sach Khand..says Charan Singh.So whats keeping all of us? Great master has incarnated back into this world, as he said he would , along with other saints, this is the the way of all sons and daughters of sat purush Go to www.rssb.org or [email protected] and see the RSSB growing and growing, "we are all prophets" Baba Ji New Zealand (July 2012)
America .UK,South Africa,is the home of sant mat in the west..look at Great masters prediction about the Americans, how they are ready for this teachings, something to celebrate eh brothers and sisters, the naam we have taken can never die, we just keep on coming back and back until we GO INSIDE.prepare thy way to the REAL HOME, our last breath etc..death is very painful apparently if we havent prepared ourselves....No matter the master inside is ALL forgiveness, NOW is the time to leave this material world and go inside to the church of the churchless.
Posted by: Ruhari Abdullah Sawan Singh | March 01, 2013 at 10:09 PM
Hi Mike, you might like to know I,v actually done the St. Michaels walk in Britain in 1979 Went all the way from St. Michaels Mount in Cornwall to Iona in Scotland not walking of course. In fact it was in Glastonbury when I stood beneath the arches of the Magdalena Chapel that I had my first real doubts about Sant Mat. Standing there looking up at those arches towering above I felt connected to something sublime, not eastern, not guru, but Christlike. I came alive like never befor. That was my first shift away from the east of course I got seduced again in Birmingham when I had Satsang with Maharagi. I had to force myself to make the journey to Iona but I had committed to the quest and had to follow through. Thank goodness I did but it has been a constant struggle. Yes I believe He did walk those shores and I pray.... My sword shall not sleep in my hands...Till "We have built The New Jerusalem"
Posted by: june schlebusch | January 03, 2014 at 06:42 AM
Re my quote above...I shall not cease from mental fight, nor shall my sword sleep in my hand I give thanks to William Blake. But here is another. Not the full version, just some lines......"Prayer Before Birth" by Louis Macniece....Iam not yet born, O hear me...Console me...Provide me...Forgive me....Rehearse me....O fill me....With Strength against those who would Freeze my humanity....Otherwise Kill Me.......
Posted by: june schlebusch | January 03, 2014 at 08:38 PM
Faith,devotion and respect...don't forget magical thinking
Posted by: dogribb | April 07, 2015 at 08:54 PM