OPB's "Rajneeshpuram" reminds me of Oregon's guru weirdness

From 1981 to 1985 Oregon, where I live, was graced (if that's the right term) by the arrival of an Indian guru, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, whose followers founded a community in central Oregon: Rajneeshpuram.

Last night my wife and I watched a recording of Oregon Public Broadcasting's hour long documentary of how the Rajnesshees rose and fell, "Rajneeshpuram." The full program can be watched online. I recommend it to anyone interested in the goods and bads of cults.

That clearly is what Rajneeshpuram was, a cult.

However, it's unclear to what extent the guru, who later changed his name to Osho, was involved with the sleazy stuff that happened. The documentary shows Bhagwan as quite detached from the running of the commune, which he left to Ma Anand Sheela -- a charming but dangerous Indian woman.

As the main planner of the 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack, she served twenty-nine months in prison for assault, attempted murder, telephone tapping, immigration fraud and product tampering.

Aside from all that, along with other nasty behavior, I guess you could say she was "spiritual." Whatever that means. Sheela was devoted to her guru. And also devoted to herself and her band of women who ran Rajneeshpuram. 

I'd forgotten about a lot of the goings-on that were shown in the documentary. It's well worth watching. You have to see the video footage of what went on at Rajneeshpuram to believe what happened before Sheela went to jail and Bhagwan left the United States as part of a plea bargain.

During the time Rajneeshpuram was being built into a thriving community of up to 7,000 people (starting from a virtually deserted 64,000 acre ranch), I recall seeing red-clad devotees around Salem and Portland. 

They seemed normal enough. Yet in the documentary you see these acolytes of Bhagwan/Osho actively participating in some decidedly weird behavior. The Rajneeshees took over the nearby town, Antelope, by force of numbers. They they ran the town, including the school, like the religious cult that they were.

Having been a member of an Indian guru-centered group myself from 1971 to 2005 (Radha Soami Satsang Beas), I could easily identify with some of the Rajneeshee's behaviors and attitudes. Bhagwan owned several dozen Rolls-Royces, which he liked to drive himself.

The documentary shows Bhagwan slowly driving by long lines of red-clad devotees, their faces beaming with adoration, hands clasped together in the traditional Indian greeting. Bhagwan would take both hands off the wheel and return the gesture -- an action that shocked a local resident who encountered the guru in one of his Rolls-Royces on a public road, waved at him, and got the no-hands driving move in response.

Excessive guru devotion makes people behave in strange ways. I can testify to that, having been one of those people. However, my guru only drove around in normal cars, though disciples would line up for his "darshan" (sight of him) in just the same way Rajneeshees did.

A few years ago my daughter gave me one of Bhagwan/Osho's books. It was about fearlessness. I read some of it. I liked it. The guru's philosophy is pretty appealing. However, it's difficult not to judge Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh by what happened at the community where he lived while all the crimes and political shenanigans were going on.

That said, I kept thinking while watching "Rajneeshpuram," Gosh, I wish the community was still in existence -- in the wonderful form that could have been. 

Rajneeshpuram seemingly started off weird in a good way. People came from all over the world to be part of a unique way of living. Some sold their possessions and donated them to the cause, wishing to join a community founded on love, devotion, service, and spirituality.

Nothing wrong with that.

And especially there was nothing wrong with the excellent vegetarian food served at Rajneeshpuram. I would have loved to be able to visit Rajneeshpuram in its hey-day (something I never did). The documentary shows several restaurants at the town center that looked highly tempting to my vegetarian taste buds. Organic gardening and a dam transformed the central Oregon high desert into a oasis of sorts.

Some Rajneeshpuram-related videos apart from the documentary can be seen here. There's four minutes of a Bhagwan talk at the bottom of the page. He definitely had the Indian guru thing down. Bhagwan's sense of humor is appealing, but his cluelessness about the shady political manipulations isn't.

 

Comments

[tucson]

My former landlord in the early 80's was a Rajneesh devotee. He was an ex IRS auditor who handled some of the finances at the Oregon ashram.

I don't have any juicy tid-bits of inside info or dirt on the organization to report here despite this connection with one of the "insiders".

I didn't see my landlord that often as he spent most of his time at the ashram which was maybe 800 miles from where the rental was, but we always had a good personal raport. We were on the same wavelength, it seemed.

One time he came over, dressed in his usual orange garb, and we sat in chairs across from each other in the living room chatting about whatever. The conversation gradually ceased and we sat in silence for awile. At some point everything just melted away into what I call the "undifferentiated state". There was no landlord, no me, no room. Just the presence of peace and light. It was radiant, as cliche' as that may sound.

I had encountered this state a number of times, but this time it was particularly profound and has influenced my view of things to this day. We both knew the other experienced the same thing. We parted without saying much. There wasn't anything to say.

I think some good stuff went on at the ashram along with the bad.

[Moongoes]

And this was the original script for Brokeback mountain.jk no offense Tucson

[Mike Williams]

I had scores of Rajneesh books and read them all.

He had this in common with Charan. When the
FBI caught Rajneesh leaving the country
they found he had Rolex watches up and down
both arms under his shirt.

In my book a rep of Charan tells how he
smuggled watches to Charan illegally to
avoid the tax.

Obama and Romney are both far more dangerous
then Rajneesh. And, except for Kirpal, there
has been no more dangerous guru than Rajneesh.

You people are still deeply imbeded in a cult and have no idea. You are still hypnotised.

You are babes in the woods and all wet behind the ears.

Your knowledge of the occult looks like
Mr. Rogers neighborhood. Captain Kangaroo
would love you guys.

The elite globalists and central banks own us and our politicians. We choose to ignore this.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

[Bob]

Do any of you remember the Alive Polarity Fellowship in Southern Califonia - yes - another "good thing" turned sour. Mostly all RS folks.

[Bob]

Hey Mike,

Sahaj Marg is in a mess. See - http://4d-don.blogspot.ca/2012/11/a-sahaj-marg-tm-renegade-elodies.html

[Mike Williams]

Hi Bob,

Yes, Sahaj Marg is a mess. I was initiated by Ram Chandra when he was alive long ago.
Ram Chandra was more critical of gurus then
Faquir Chand and would rant against their corruption.

Yet, Sahaj Marg was taken over via coupe
by Chari. I consider it a true cult now.
What a shame.

Of course Sahaj Marg uses pranahuti instead
of the lower class kundalini enery. Very rare yoga. It took me years to track down a master of this art.

The guru business is really a racket now, with the most rediculous gurus. The public is getting smart fast.

The new generation of honest seekers will
not suffer as much as we did.

[Bob]

There are questions regarding the validity of Ram Chandra as a guru as well - given that he saw his guru (the other Ram chandra) a few times only and claimed successorship about 13 years or so after the first Ram chandra died. Sahaj Marg's whole successor thing is in turmoil - especially with chari and all the other factions that currently exist and claim authority via Ram Chandra.

The factions outside of Chari's group claim that Ram Chandra is the master of the Universe till dissolution of the physical universe! Quite a claim!! They have high hopes to bring liberation to the whole planet through Ram chandra.

IMO, the whole thing is a real nut case - better left alone than get anywhere near it.

And, with kasturi gone who knows what's next!

[Mike Williams]

Hi Bob,
Many many years ago, I was the one whom brought up the contradictions in Ram Chandra's lineage. There are also some theological contradictions I brought out.

Now many years later, people repeat what I said years ago, not knowing the original source.

There are not so many Ram Chandra initiates like myself alive now. It was not a large group when he was alive. He died around 1984 if my memory is correct.

I know of no living pranahuti masters that are
alive now. I do not believe Chari can be real
with his scandals. It is very sad.

Ram Chandra was an incredibly honest man.
Quite remarkable. One of highest internally.

The concept of pranahuti as given by Ramana Maharshi was identical to Ram Chandra.

Pranahuti uses swimming, as opposed to the flying of kundalini which I do not believe exists).

The chakras are opened from top down with this
Force from above. Brain centres, anyway.

[Moongoes]

Guys click on the link and go to your speakers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRH807Zg8MQ

You kill me with your smelly fingers
Your smelly fingers from the sex you had on Christmas Day
And now you say you're feeling guilty
You're feeling guilty 'cos your god was shining on your face
You go to church and light a candle
And then you're blinded by the light from the golden pews
The devil's snapping at your toes now
Because the angels can't be bothered to live to you

They're selling jesus again
They're selling jesus again
They want your soul and your money your blood and your votes
They're selling jesus again
Selling love to you - selling love

You're buying this you're buying that now
You're wishing all the money in the world belonged to you
You're crucified upon you're own cross now
You're givin' money to the white men in the white limo
That kind of god is always man-made
They made him up then wrote a book to keep you on your kness
They get their theories from the same place
Then build a church if there's some money left
From lying on the beach

They're selling jesus again
They're selling jesus again
They want your soul and your money your blood and your votes
They're selling jesus again
Selling love to you - selling love

They're selling jesus again
They're selling jesus again
They want your soul and your money your blood and your votes
They're selling jesus again
Selling love to you - selling love

[cc]

"I think some good stuff went on at the ashram along with the bad."

Care to elaborate?

[Mike Williams]

"
1) According to several accounts, Baba Jaimal Singh's own initiation
at the age of seventeen resulted in an inner ascent from which he did
not emerge for several days,"
Beas RS quote

Bullshit. They were trying for weeks to dig
Jaimal's head out of his ass (without success)

Jaimal, according to Beas, was initiated at least 5 years before Swami Ji even opened his satsang to the public. All of Swami Ji's
family rejected Jaimal.

ALL

Chran was as great as liar as Kirpal, although
much smarter, being a barrister (lawyer).

[G.S]

Hey Mike,

Did you know that Charan was told by someone he should give darshan to the sangat rather than just being sat on a chair reading a newspaper. Charan was asked 3 times to, Charan then responded by saying look at the newspaper, the person saw live sangat in the newspaper moving around, the person then begged for forgiveness.

Also a former classmate doubted Charan, the former classmate met Charan and said some stuff, the classmate went to hug Charan and Charan appeared 20ft back and then 30 ft forward.

You might want to revise your secret history buddy because I can find out if your secret history and RS is reputable.
You might be wrong or right regarding the history, but i'll find out, not through research etc but through something special, I will know the whole truth. All I need is a bit more information about you which I will get from a anonymous source.

I'm just a truth seeker, I'm not even a full RS, but I don't like information that looks fabricated (your secret history).

There is nothing you or RS can do because I will find out truth, it might take a few years to 8-9 or more, but the truth will come out.

[tucson]

"I think some good stuff went on at the ashram along with the bad."

Care to elaborate?

--No, because I don't know much, but according to heresay some of the devotees benefited from the environment there despite the shenanigans of the corrupt staff and perhaps the leader himself. I also have an in-law who was a member and had a good experience. Truth is always available, even in a cesspool..imnsho.

[Mike Williams]

Hi G.S.,

Gurinder states Secret History is factually
correct. He states they only have some things
they look at from a different angle.

The book is based on hard historical facts.
Documents which exist to this day most the time.

By coincidence I knew the two major historians
in India.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTEVvkL-l3Q&feature=related

[G.S]

Mike,

Elaborate on the part where you say 'Gurinder states Secret History is factually correct'.

[Mike Williams]

Hi GS,

Radhasoami Beas Secret History came out 12 years ago. About 1 1/2 million people have read it on 3 websites.

It was ironically launced by David Icke,
when his website at that time linked it.
Icke is one of the foremost people in the world going up against the globalists,
Rothschilds, New World Order and the Federal Reserve bank. The CIA and others are all over his back trying to defame him.

I know several high reps from RS Beas. They
were in contact with me as soon as the book came out. Oddly enough, it seems Gurinder likes the book and the vast majority of Beas people are happy with it.

It makes very clear Kirpal lied about being a
Sawan successor. The Kirpal groups hate this book because it debunks Kirpal. Kirpal was an unbelievable liar and a nut case.

I have been initiated by 7 Radhasoami Gurus.
I have spent my life researching the occult
and have been initiated by very many Gurus
and masters.

I have come foreward so people don't have to make the same mistakes I made on my journey. I make no money from this and belong to no groups now.

My intensions in this book were to bring forth
irrefutable historical facts. Charan and Kirpal also checked them out with Maheswari.

No one doubts they occurred.

My concern now is with the Freemasons and their control of the central banks and politicians, in their move for a one world government.

[Mike Williams]

How were the Pyramids of Giza built ?
Modern research has put the Sphinx head at 10,000 years old, which is just in front of the pyramids. Recently vast underground chambers were discovered under the pyramids.

Other South American pyramids are now being dated 11,000 years old.(after ice age)

All pyramids use the same mathematics and
are aligned astronomically. Especially
to the Spring Equinox all around the world.

More modern pyramids were built upon older pyramids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJcp13hAO3U&feature=related

[Mike Williams]

How were the pyramids of egypt really built - Part 2

Cont. from above link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxFXsoqbfrk&feature=relmfu

[tucson]

Mike,
Is it your opinion that the RS movement is generally a fraud? Is it the purpose of "RS Secret History" to reveal this?

You have made it clear that certain RS gurus, such as Kirpal and others, were frauds in your opinion.

You seem to speak with some respect in regard to Rai Saligram, the founder of RS, as well as pranahuti masters who, I gather, are not part of Radhasoami lineage.

Actually, I think I know your answers to the above questions but I ask them in order to clarify your position to others who may be considering this path. They would benefit from a historical perspective outside of the usual dogma and heresay that prospective devotees usually hear.

[Mike Williams]

Hi tucson,

Yes, its surprises people I can find no
wrong with the Radhasoami Founder Rai Salig Ram. I have much information I cannot give the public that I have learned from the historians in India. Salig Ram was an astonishing character whom wrote the vast
Radhasoami books and created a new religion
far above the old Sikhs.

The Agra lineage was the only true lineage
and died with the last master around 1948.
We don't know what power these masters had.
But, yes, I believe they had power, unlike modern day Radhasoami masters whom have none.

There are no living Radhasoami masters today
in my belief. I believe they are all fake
and in fact simple charlatans. Once in awile someone like Thakar Singh may pop up who said he was possessed with demons and be able to give experience. Good people can be the victims of evil forces.

I believe demons exist and can work through mans brain. I have not found God, but instead Something Else, which is quite Positive.

It can be called pranahuti, or as Ramana Maharshi calls it, the Self. There is a positive power as opposed to the negative kundalini based powers.

Until man makes contact with the Positive Power nothing has happenned to him. Even if the person is enlightened it will do him no good.

The problem with the Positive Power is, it is not a religion. The Positive Power hides itself.

Therefore, anyone whom has contact will usually not tell you how to make contact.

This Positive Force has a modus operandi.
It is out to help the world in real ways.
So, people in contact with the Positive Power
may be doing all sorts of different things on
the earth to help it.

This Force moves in front of them and opens
impossible doors. Often these people are
the only ones available for the task. They
are ahead of their time.

Great Luciferian forces exist, but the Positive Power has the upper hand in the end.

[tucson]

Hi Mike,

I was initiated by Charan and Thakar. Charan was dignified and I had experience of light in his presence, same with Thakar, but I think this was a reflection of what is within me rather than any real power they had. It is what we all have. It may be the same as the positive power you speak of. There is no way to approach it or go away from it except to be receptive. You can be vegetarian or not or meditate 20 hours a day or never meditate. It doesn't matter. Why should it care what you do? I also think Beas is a fraud. It is just big business. It irks me when friends go to great lengths and expense to see Gurinder in Petaluma, London or India but I keep my mouth shut except on this blog. Besides, it makes them feel they are doing the right thing in life. But really it is selfish, imo.

[Mike Williams]

Hi tucson,

The masters of so called kundalini based yoga such as surat shabda yoga, have no power in themselves. Not even Thakar had power. But,
some are Demonic possessed, as Thakar admitted.

I watched him give hundreds of initiations in person and knew him well. He was quite remarkable. As opposed to Darshan Singh, whom I knew and watched initiations and no one got anything. I also saw many in person initiations by Charan reps and Gurinder reps.
No one got anything.

I was also initiated personally by Dr. Agam Mathur, master at Peepal Mandi, great grandson of Salig Ram and best living RS historian at this time.
He told me to contemplate the form of Salig Ram, instead of himself. I had also been initiated by Kirpal Singh.

It is quite literally demons which produce
the experiences. If the demon is with them,
it will give experience. You can't tell by looking at them if they have the demons.
Only the initiation tells the story.

The Positive Power cares not about religion.
It only cares mankind and animals take the right roads in life and don't hurt each other.

The Positive Power hides itself. It does not
want to be known.

The experiences of most are superficial mental aberations, unless demonic in nature.

The people whom the Positive Power uses,
know from birth they are quite different.
They know they are always protected.

These people wish only the best for all mankind in the real world. They do not act
like Saints, nor do they even like the saints.
They care not what happens after death, as they know the Power does as it wishes and has their best interests at heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVOtlCnm3t0&feature=related

[Peaceseeker]

Mike
How can a person experience the positive power you speak of.
PS

[roger]

The demonic and positive power sounds like something originating in divided mind.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Peaceseeker,

The Positive Power is not something you
want to contact. It is not here to save your
soul, or teach a way, or means of religion.

Its mission is to help humanity in real terms and animals and the earth.

Truth and compassion are what the positive Power seeks out. Those whom are willing to take up a cross for all beings.

These people work in all areas of life to
effect beneficial change. Rarely do they
show as a master, whom can teach its ways
and how to contact it.

Truth and compassion are qualifications. Therefore extremely few people can be used by the Positive Power. These people have the same desire as the Power in their hearts. Therefore, the Positive Power
can manifest.

Feel sorry for the poor compassionate souls
whom help it in its wonderful mission. Fot
these poor people it is not Something they even want, it is Something their Hearts demand of them out of Love.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Roger,

Not a devided mind, but not Oneness either.

The Positive Power is definitely not the person. (Persons actually don't exist, except as their false notion of self. A person only believes they exist. There
is nothing in a person except this belief.)

The notion of a self is quite false. But, this world is very real. Pain and suffering are real.

So pain and suffering are quite real to the
non existent person (self notion).

A physical body feels pain, although there is no self which can exist to feel pain.

If duality is not a reality, how could anything exist ?

[Roger]

Thanks Mike,

How would a Positive Power know of the word: positive? Does the Positive Power know of a Negative Power? The Positive Power may have a split mind of it's own.

"If duality is not a reality, how could anything exist?"

---Duality may or may not be a reality. An "anything" that has been conceptualized from a non-thing, can find existence in mind.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Roger,

People with no self do not see any other
selves around them. All they see is movement
with no movers.

Within this non personal movement of the
world pain occurs in particular places.

Since the person whom has realized no self
also sees no self in others, EVERYTHING
has become the Self of this person.

All experiences of all types are now the total person. EVERYTHING is the person.

A selfless person automatically has oneness
with everything, because the person sees
themself as EVERYTHING.

So you may see a person in whom pain is occuring and help the person. But, a selfless one helps the pain, which he sees as his pain, not the pain of another.

The selfless person is very selfish, because he helps only himself in the world.
He loves only himself, which includes
EVERYTHING. All animals, plants, skies,
water are contained in the selfless one.

The selfless person sees nothing but
his Self everywhere.

Oneness is not a means to an end, oneness
is the end product of the realization
of no self.

They identify with EVERYTHING they experience as them Self. Therefore, they have compassion on EVERYTHING.

Duality exists in form and these individual forms experience pain. The self cannot experience pain, because it does not exist.

[George]

Mike

Has the positive power anything to do with the illuminati power of global financial meltdown?

I figure these important issues might be related and could shed light on our understanding of reality? Do you also believe Guru Gurinder Goodygumdrops is tied up with this Postive power?

Eagerly awaiting your erudite response.

Yours sincerely
Georgy

[Mike Williams]

Hi George,
No, I don't see Gurinder as tied up
with the positive power. No Beas based guru has been. The only interest the positive power has in religion is to debunk it for the good of mankind.

I am very much against the new world order,
bankers and politicians. I have been buying gold, freeze dried food, water storage.

I believe the system will eventually collaspe. There are 707 trillion dollars worth of derivatives.

I got out of my bank and stock accounts.

MF Global and rehypothecation were a big
wake up call.

[tucson]

I think Mike is right. The system is a 10 ton vehicle on a 1 ton bridge. Currently the bridge is creaking and groaning. Rivets are popping, boards are cracking. Repairmen can't keep pace. Will it go all at once or in sections? In six months, one year or three? But fail it must.

Keep silver, barter goods, and a supply of necessities. Try not to get too paranoid, but a 12 ga. pump action could save the day ($197.00 on sale at Big 5). Fire it once or twice so you know what to expect. Keep only enough loot in banks to pay the bills. Kroners, Francs and Singapores may fail last if you have cash. Things may go along fairly normally sort of lulling you into complacency and then wham! all of a sudden it will crumble. Maybe a warning will be a leak of something funny going on with JP Morgan or something like that.

Interesting how threads run...from Rajneesh to shotguns.

Keep in mind I only pretend to know what I am talking about.

[Moongoes]

The Positive Power cannot be searched cause it is already there where it is.

[Truthseeker2012]

Sorry Mike, your definition of the positive power seems like something you have made up.
It seems so anti religion and anti Beas.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Truthseeker
"The Positive Power) seems so anti religion and anti Beas.
your quote

That is correct.

Hi Moongoes,
"The Poitive Power cannot be searched cause
it is already where it is."
your quote

That is correct. You do not go to a priest
to find it. You go to a hynotist to take
the blinders off your hypnotic spell, which
is the only thing that keeps you from seeing it.

Hi tucson,
I just bought a .22 nitro air rifle at
big 5. 950 feet per second and no license
necessary. Also a dehumidifier to make water
out of the air and a generator. Lots of 15 year shelf life tvp, 52 gram protein powder from Walmart made fron whey. Of course the bow and arrow, with scope is handy.
(I keep silver bullets for Rajinder moles)

My degree is in accounting. No fiat currency
has ever survived. They all have ended in hyperinflation and all go back to zero worth. Look forward to bank holidays and riots. I am hoping we have 5 years before this happens.

http://beprepared.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_93_A_name_E_Textured%20Vegetable%20Protein

[Roger]

tucson,

---Check out the AA-12 fully automatic.

Mike,

---the nondual Self and dualistic self, I think I can understand. However, not sure why the nondual Self would engage in the concept of compassion on EVERYTHING.

George,

---LOL.....loved the Goodygumdrops category.
Any hot babes with such name? Like, tAo's girl holding beer bikerbabe?

[tucson]

Roger,
Looks like an awesome weapon but although I mentioned shotguns I am not really into guns...my ears suffer badly from the blast and I find the noise annoying anyway. People think rural areas are quiet but often the quiet is punctuated by gunshots, chainsaws and howler monkeys in the tropics. However, I keep several guns for emergencies. My interest is in edged weapons and I make knives as a hobby/business...SBD, and I'm not talking about farts.

Mike,
I also like the bow and arrow and we have a target range out back. I use homemade wood self-bows and wood arrows but I use modern hunting tips. It can be done without bothering or alerting anyone. I like the airgun idea and have thought about them, but aren't they limited to one shot at a time and then you have to re-load?

Truthseeker,
Religion and Beas have nothing to do with Truth. Hence, Mike's debunking of them. The truth you seek is where you look from. You don't need Beas or the Pope for that.

[Bob]

Tuscon:

You have a way with words, "The system is a 10 ton vehicle on a 1 ton bridge."

Right on the mark!

How are you adjusting your life given the upcoming unglueing of the US financial system?

[George]

Mike,

Couple of things I don't think your .22 air rifle is much good unless you plan on infuriating hillbillies. No wonder one complaining about the fiat currecy during the baby boomer generation. silver bulletts only work on vampires, everyone know this this. I think you might need a Rambo survival knife, which is more valuable than a bow and arrow (everyone knows this). Its probably a bit too early to call for the end of days - let us face it, the mayan prophecy is about 22 days away. The bible also mentions the four horsemen of the apocalypse and I have a strong feeling that the Negative power might be behind all these shennanigans, unless an asteroid hits us first in which case all of this worrying is for nothing. An extinction event is way overdue.

Hunker down.

[George]

I understand Tucsons 12 ga is a far more effective weapon for blowing heads off at close quarters, though one has to ask what the need is for such WMD from such great spiritual adepts that pervade this site?

what happened to all is one and all that? I am the walrus?

[tucson]

Bob,
I mentioned in one of the comments above some of the things I am doing to get prepared for the coming crunch. Also, Mike says a bit about this above in this thread. I tend not to trust brokerage accounts, banks, etc. but still use them cautiously with an eye out for trouble. A friend has recently had problems with two long-standing brokerage firms he used for investments that went belly-up to bankruptcies due to misappropriation of funds.

This thing still could take some time to manifest in all its glory, but no harm in keeping emergency rations and supplies. I like silver better than gold (but I like gold too) as it is less likely to be confiscated and can be purchased in low value units for bartering convenience.

George,
I am the walrus and so are you but I am not a spiritual adept. I feel the need for food, shelter, anti-oxidants and, to a lesser extent, some capability for warding off muggers though I don't dwell on the subject. Don't like guns? Keep some pipe on hand or a cricket bat. Doesn't have to be fancy, expensive, or explosive.

[Mike Williams]

" why would the nondual Self engage in the concept of compassion on EVERYTHING."
quote Roger

The selfless see themselves as EVERYTHING.
All experiences.

The selfless love themselves, self love.

But, since they see themselves as EVERYTHING, they love the entire Universe.

[Peaceseeker]

Hi Mike,
With so much negative things happening in the world, whats the postive power doing?
PS

[Mike Williams]

"whats the postive power doing?"
question by Peacemaker

Fighting the New World Order, the Central Banks, corruption, the Freemasons and the Vatican.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcUgqSy4L6M

[Appreciative Reader]

Sorry to wade in so late to this particular discussion.

I've been reading a great many of Brian's posts (and people's comments), starting with the earliest ones. [Incidentally the older posts generally present a livelier comment-fest, it seems, since some conversations seem to run through years! See how I myself am commenting two full years after the last comment.]

I generally don't comment because I realize I myself know far less about these things than many here do. But there's something I need to ask here :

Two questions, then :

First : Not much about Osho Rajneesh on this blog (that I have seen). Does anyone have any detailed/first-hand view? The man wrote prolifically, and wrote some really excellent stuff. I've read a great many of his books, and saw some of his speeches on video : and he's said some (in fact, a LOT) of AMAZING stuff!

On the other hand, he seemed to have done lots of really weird stuff. The laughing gas, the Rolls, the out-of-hand disciplines, and there are whispers that he may actually have been done in, as in assisted on his final journey by some of his devotees.

Anyone have any first-hand info? (Just curious, no big deal, man's dead after all. So great, pedestrian, or charlatan, it doesn't really matter today I suppose.)

My second question : People here are generally (rightly) critical of cock-and-bull faith stories (except for the "followers" who sometimes visit). But the critics sometimes are themselves way over the top.

Take this very thread. Mike's comments here about demonic possession and the like are no less weird than the weird RSSB claims and the other weird Christian (and other) claims in other posts.

If any of the old guys are still around and read this (tucson at least still frequents these blogs I know), or Brian, or anyone else who would care to comment : Actually Mike himself can answer this best but I'd welcome anyone else who knows Mike well, if Mike no longer visits this blog :

Is the guy joking? Really joking, I mean? If this is an elaborate exercise in sarcasm, then fine, it makes sense. But if not, then his demons and whole system of powers (positive and negative and fractals and god knows what else)-- how weird is that?! And people here seem to be taking his outlandish talk at face value?

It's great to debunk people who claim to see a golden calf floating in the sky, but if you debunk that claim by saying instead that what's floating up there in the sky is not a golden calf but a silver elephant, then a visit to the same doctor (where we're sending the cult-followers) seems called for.

My second question is simply this : outlandish counter-arguments like Mike's (which I've seen in other threads also, and not only by Mike) which people here seem to seriously discuss -- is all this an elaborate spoof, or are you guys serious?

[Brian Hines]

Appreciative Reader, I agree that some people who are critical of the irrationality of certain religious beliefs have their own beliefs that aren't supported by demonstrable evidence or even good arguments.

I don't find this surprising, since few, if any, of us are totally rational, scientific, and logical. (Which is good.) It's just a matter of degree, and how our "far out'ness" is manifested.

For example, many people have some superstitious habits (athletes often do). Others consider that "the universe is telling me something," or words to that effect.

Also, I've written about the journey away from religiosity being a gradual process. Bit by bit, unsupported beliefs drop away. The most egregiously unsupported first; the others later.

So I'm accepting of those who debunk cults, yet hold on to their own seemingly irrational beliefs. For one thing, there is a big difference between an organized religion which considers itself to be the One True Way, and individuals who enjoy believing in a weird this or that.

For me, I'm fine with anyone believing anything, so long as those beliefs aren't held out as objective truth which should support social policy, an educational curriculum, or whatever. When beliefs enter the broad social/cultural arena, then they need to be supported by solid facts rather than being mere subjective opinion.

Some of the old-timer commenters don't comment here much any more. I can't speak for why they have written what they did. Only they could. I just know that in my own life, for a long time I was strongly critical of Christianity and other religions, while believing in some other irrational stuff.

Again, I think we all do this. It's just a matter of degree.

[Lila]

“Here's to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They're not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can't do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.”

[Goku]

So what was osho made up of ? How did he got all those words.. when he had a fraud in mind and nothing ? When i read things like osho on the book of mirdad or on why words speak no less..... I fell conected to him... I feel change in breath... I get all the powers and motivation i need to move mountains..... Same thing I feel with lot of rssb books.... divine clarity and meaningfullness and truth.... and joyfullness.... So what do most people here are saying ? Were they all just superhumans turned frauds? Or what else ?

[Nietzsche]

I think the scientific set of blinkers is just another set of blinkers ;) If you hold science so high you don't understand the philosophy of science and the human greed factor in it. A lot of our energy science was disturbed by energy company greed and a lot of our health science was disturbed by pharmaceutical greed. If you publish a lot on a subject you can control the science. Money rules the truth and there is nothing irrational about that. Just a little naive to hold science so high in regards and than let them cut your flesh and poison you to get rid of a desease while ancient old culture knew which weeds to get and what food to let go. Science progress? Yeaah right.

[Nietzsche]

Somewhere deep below we still need someone to lead us be it guru or a scientific opinion. You have to start thinking yourself and taking your own responsibilities.

Most people these days are very into folowing and have very limited mental capacity. I do suspect fluor to be a retarding agent in our toothpaste. But there are other retarding agents making us dumber and dumber and they are not eggs or meat.

[sapient]

Goku, content in most of the rssb books is stolen from old hindu spiritual books , guru granth sahib and other philosopher's books and the content is modified to give a feel that everyone has the same theory of spirituality as rssb. Dont get trapped in rssb, read the real scriptures and dharma!

[Goku]

I am not trapped in rssb. And i do read other contents. And i dont belive such thing as stealing can be done. Coz its something which you cant do until and unless you yourself are the devil. As only he can stay uneffected by this books... by this content
.. or.... well the only thing else i am saying now that while you can feel this agony or this nostalgia,,, you know that you did always exist. And he did always existed. And there is nothing as non existance. Its something you may only imagine, that too in lower state of your consiousness. And that you were fool to have thought the other way.

[Lars Warje]

Thanks for posting this. I remember seeing the red people around a center they had in Vancouver in the early to mid eigthies, but never met any.
Although there have been cultish elements in the spiritual organization of my choice, The Emissaries Of Divine Light, the blind devotion to a leader has never been my thing. Seems to me that the Oregon experience, though wonderful to many for awhile, in the end turned out to look like nothing but well-to-do Westerners looking for a stereotypical Eastern experience. There were many other communes around for people who wanted to live, love, work, grow and prepare food, etc, together without a guru consciousness.
Bishop Martin Exeter of EDL said "Don't worship me, I am just a substitute pattern until you get it". That kind of spiritual leadership appeals to me.
Dancing around a Rolls Royce in Madras while a guru eats an ice cream soda is just too way out there for me.
But bless their transformation of an overgrazed ranch to a lush kind of Eden. In promo videos for the current owners the place looks magical. So many kids lives are enriched at this place, and the Sannyans should be proud of being part of that.

But don't wear red in Wasco County, is what I come away with after reading almost everything available on-line about Oregon's past experience with the cult.
Thanks again for your blog