Skepticism about Charan and Gurinder Singh

Some comments on this blog deserve more attention than they get if hidden away as part of a blog post. Here's one such thoughtful comment from "aloe," published yesterday on this post, which will be of interest to those who follow Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas goings-on.
-------------------------------------------- 
I read some of these posts with some sadness. I was initiated by Charan Singh and followed him for 23 years. After 13 years among older initiates who were a joy to be around, my life in a good discipline, the next 10 years were a gradual revelation that Sant Mat was false.

It had started earlier, as once in a while someone would mention something that was out of order about Sant Mat. I would tuck these objections in the attic of my mind, thinking them to be exaggerated rumors.

Then I got to know younger Satsangis who went in and out of marriages, who acted oddly after being at the Dera, and a Representative who encouraged devotees to smuggle merchandise into the Dera via their suitcases.

Then there was my trip to the Dera, to hear Gurinder Singh. My roommate and I would write down what he said during the daily meetings for Westerners in a Yurt as soon as we got to our rooms, so we would not forget anything. We even matched notes. The only word we disagreed upon was “that”.

I thought he’d leave out the “that” in “so that” and she felt he must speak correct English and had put that word in. What surprised both of us was that Gurinder Singh answered someone who mentioned getting out in four life times (liberation from the material regions into the pure spiritual regions). Gurinder Singh said “I never said that!”

No wonder he will not be taped. He doesn’t know what the Sant Mat books say and does not want us comparing notes!

The other thing that surprised us was when he said that meditation results were “exactly the same as a drug trip.” The “only difference is, that a drug trip is unnatural, forcing your way inside. Meditation is the natural way inside.” Why this impacted me is that, unlike most Satsangis, I had not taken drugs and was very much against it.

I met a man shortly after the above exchange and he said that he had taken drugs and fully agreed with Gurinder Singh. In fact, he felt vindicated for using them, in the beginning, because of what Gurinder Singh had said. This is why I remember the incident so clearly. Two others besides myself heard him say this.

Another time a lady came up behind me as I was looking at the photograph of Nimi wearing Rajasthani jewelry with her father, Charan looking lovingly at her in the then new book Legacy of Love. She said curtly, “So that is who I bought that jewelry for!” I looked at her, astonished. She said “And with my money!” Then she walked off. This was on a United States Sant Mat property.

In the early 1980’s at a Sant Mat potluck, a pretty young lady in Salwar and Kamiz outfit came near me. She was obviously in a bliss state. She said, “Master is all love.” I smiled. Then she said, “I spent the night with him in his bedroom and he is all love, all love.” Upright me said, “Wait a minute. You spent the night where? “In his bedroom…” Before she could sing song the “love, love” thing again, I said “That is not proper!” She suddenly grasped her face in her hands and said “OH, I want my life back! I just want my life back!” She turned and literally ran away.

I was in a Western Representative’s home and he asked the group to volunteer to take some merchandise to the Dera. I volunteered and asked what I would be taking. He said that the package would be wraped. I said “What about customs?” Do you know what he said? He said “We don’t think about that.” I said, “But I will have to go through customs”. He said, “No, I don’t want you. You are not suitable.”

Later I read about the smuggling that was the usual way for Dera to stock its computer room with computers and its hospital with medical supplies. I guess that quarter billion dollar business was not up and running yet, and Gurinder could not pay the customs duty? Evidently this also went on under Charan.

Bible verses of God revealing Himself to mankind ran through my brain. Reading the Bible again I was shocked that Jesus said that he was God (that is what the Son of God means in Jewish. It means you are God. That is what was so shocking to the Sanhedrin. They did not like Jesus claiming to be God. It was not in their plans for a material kingship type Messiah). My New Age upbringing had always stated that Jesus never claimed to be God!

Then there is Genesis, where the Satan as the serpent tempts the Adam and Eve with the path of becoming God through the path of knowledge—just like a Guru, my, my!

But wait, mankind through the birth of a Messiah through Mary will crush the head of the serpent, God will make the sacrifice burning up everyone’s karma, Jesus will establish His Church which will present the Eucharist as a sacrament to join us in His sacrifice so we will go to Heaven and enjoy the Bliss of God according to our own capacity and the bad guys will be thrown in the prison of Hell, so that goodness will not have to put up with evil any longer! Well, it is different!

I was struck by the person who said they were equally as comfortable with Sant Mat as with Catholicism. Well, Charan’s daughter was sent to Catholic school so guess where Charan got his information in fusing some Catholic ideas onto Sikkism?

It is the Hindu way to accept contradictions, to accept nonsense. That is why Sant Mat can blithely preach that God emanated Himself in a churning motion and precipitated the world out of himself.

A rock is as god-like as a Guru. The only difference is that the rock is unconscious that it is God and the Guru is conscious that he is God. Then Sant Mat can turn around and say that God as Divinity created the material world and God transcends the creation. Both are equally true: the creation is God and the creation is transcended by God. The creation always existed and God also made the creation out of nothing. There, everyone can be happy in what they believe. Just believe whatever you want, even both at the same time!

The only problem with this is that there are a few of us left who want the truth, just like the lady I heard at Dera, crying, saying “Master, you always speak the truth, don’t you? People are saying that you do not speak the truth. But you are truth. You must speak the truth. Tell me that it is not true, that you do speak the truth. Tell these people that they are wrong!”

Master looked pityingly at the poor soul, who had obviously not been messed up enough to just accept evil and good as being the same thing, merely an act to get over with until the last karmic tit for tat is done. He said “Why do you care what they think?” Then he just looked at her, saying “I will be what you want me to be.” Well, how convenient!

The world, my dear friends, is a battle between good and evil. Satan is the great trickster and liar, determined to stop you from fighting on the side of good against evil. Satan has a lot of followers who try to tell you to just be indifferent to everything and stay in a happy, self-induced bliss state through all and you will merge with…..WHAT? Merge with what? With whatever you want that what to be?

Few escape the New Age world. Very very few escape. Usually guru followers run after one guru, one New Age path after another. Even Catholicism has its New Age apparition. The current one is Medjugorje. Just type in Medjugorje/ documents , to learn the truth about that one.

Read Archbishop Lefebvre’s books especially Against the Heresies and The Mass of All Time for one who sees through paganism. This is probably your only escape route, as the Church is courting humanism, right now, and is confusing. Lefefbvre is never confusing. Read the Douay Rhiems version of the Bible as Jerome had manuscripts that are now missing. Thus his sources were older than what exist today, making his translation more accurate.

The 1500’s Rheims New Testement is hard to obtain, but possible. It is the literal Vulgate. Most are the 1700’s version and have a slight humanist slant to them, but it is still mostly intact. The real Christianity is quite austere and frugal in its required behavior. Very disciplined. That is why so many who need discipline follow gurus. The Church dropped the ball and made everything easy, which is not what disciples need. But Lefebvre does not. He follows Jesus, one of the few.

God’s plan is different from the New Age. Instead of humans inventing and discovering ways to be God, God reveals All to us and gives us a plan to obey so that we can adore God in His Realm and be happy forever. It is really a no- brainer, it is that sad tendency to keep rebelling that is the problem!

I hope this helps some of you to get over your deep sentiments of affection for Sant Mat. After the deep pain of seeing the truth (praying to Jesus to keep away all false visions really helps) and the embarrassment of being tricked, there is life after Sant Mat.

Few will understand you, but there are some out there who will leave the New Age behind for good, and not simply carry it with them. Just remember, however, that the entire world is against Jesus. Most of the world is much more accepting of Masonic type New Age stuff than it is of a true Jesus. The world loves humanistic Christianity; it will tolerate the moral discipline of a Satsangi, but it will never tolerate the Sacrifice of the Mass. Try to see the Infinity of God and not the chasm of world. Pax Christi

Comments

[Robert Paul Howard]

As regarding the posting by "aloe" (originally posted as a comment on Brian's 2/6/07 essay), I supply the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Lefebvre .

I also dare suggest that several more "modern" translations of the Christian "Bible" (including even the deuterocanonical books) are superior in their textual basis than is/was the Vulgate version (supposedly) of Jerome, as provided in the Douay-Rhiems translation. This would be true of the RSV, the NIV, and even the Jerusalem Bible.

Robert Paul Howard

[Sita]

Sorry Brian,
But I think there is a lot untruth in this letter.

[Marina]

[Hey Brian, what the hell are ya at? :)]

What I find interesting about above comment is not the organizations or events that happen but the meaning we give them - or our own interpretation of where we are ourselves.

Was at my friends house the last two days helping her as she has moved house. We had taken 'Emily' out of her box (the name of the suite of furniture she bought) while arranging the sitting room. Because of work still being done in the house (new kitchen been fitted etc) we decided to leave 'Emily' with the plastic cover over her.
During the night, as renovations are in progress, we were sleeping in the same room on the same mattress on the floor and due to her loud snoring and her constant talking in her sleep, I woke about 4am, couldn't get back to sleep so decided to pay a visit to the loo and have a smoke.
I quietly, during the snores made my way out of bed and I heard my friend saying 'don't slip off the plastic!' in a loud coherent voice. Thinking she was talking in her sleep, I smiled and ignored her but I heard again, 'Do you hear me? Don't slip off the plastic when you are meditating or whatever you are doing!' I went down the stairs and had a conversation in my head that went something like this: 'Cheek of her! What does she mean telling me not to take of Emily's plastic? Does she think I am going to dirty it? She's an ungrateful and cheeky bitch!'
But seen as I wasn't planning on slipping off Emily's plastic and wasn't planning on meditating, I shook the whole thing off and went on about my business.

It was later on the next morning when somehow innocently it came up in conversation when she was asking me how I slept, I was telling her about her snoring and talking in her sleep and I happened to say to her 'here, the cheek of you telling me not to take off Emily's plastic'. She replied 'I DID NOT say that.' I told her she did and she said 'I said don't slip off Emily.....' and then the penny dropped. She told me she had been concerned that while meditating I might fall asleep (as if :) and slip off the chair and hurt myself. We laughed and of course had a conversation on how we interpret things, sometimes innocently, in a way that aint the truth!

"“I will be what you want me to be.” Well, how convenient! "
Totally agree with this. Or - you will be how I see you!

Marina

[cc]

I remember the time Sant Mat asked me to smuggle in some pot. I told him I couldn't take the risk, but he assured me there would be no problem. As a faithful disciple, I trusted him, and as confused as I was about his request for something he'd condemned, I went ahead and tried to carry out his wishes.

I'll be released from prison in a few days and I'm looking forward to reuniting with good ol' Sant.

[peaceseeker]

This post is completely Mixing truth with lies. I would advise anyone to read the above post with caution.

[cc]

"It was later on the next morning when somehow innocently it came up in conversation when she was asking me how I slept, I was telling her about her snoring and talking in her sleep and I happened to say to her 'here, the cheek of you telling me not to take off Emily's plastic'. She replied 'I DID NOT say that.' I told her she did and she said 'I said don't slip off Emily.....' and then the penny dropped. She told me she had been concerned that while meditating I might fall asleep (as if :) and slip off the chair and hurt myself. We laughed and of course had a conversation on how we interpret things, sometimes innocently, in a way that aint the truth!"

Nuttiest nonsense I've read in a while. Thanks!

[peaceseeker]

cc

Actually, Marina's post is not Nutty nonsense. Infact it makes alot of sense to one, if you have some understanding of how human perception works.What is nonsense is the post by aloe, I am a very anti the whole guru / baba thing and i am no fan of the the Radha Soami movement, but equally i am no fan of people like aloe who fabricate stories as truths, with alterior motives in mind.

ps

[Jesse]

I am skeptical of the stories because they are the same as the criticism from some older anti-rs blogs with a little feigned emotion to make a point.

The smuggling and the computers were directly lifted from other sites,some of which had a picture of an 'illegal' computer room at the Dera as if there was some all out ban on electronics in India.

Also,if I recall correctly, in the pictures with Charan Singh's daughter,she was wearing old traditional Rajasthani jewelry at her wedding.Why would you smuggle that from the US?
It seems that this person is prone to cults and is trying to get people to revert back to the jesus cult instead of the RS cult.

Brian,you get some awesomely weird stuff on your comments section. I'd consider making a best of comments section if I were you. Be sure to include the doctor,Raj, who said that even white scientists know that ganesh statues drink milk.

[Janya Barrish]

Aloe,

First of all I would like to thank you for the post, please take what I am saying as impersonally as you can, like a critique from a rookie grad student.I get the direction of your aspirations and appreciate them, however, it seems in order to justify your conversion you have extropolated to absurdity.

A little background of and relating to Pax Christi:

Pax Christi is a non-governmental Catholic, Anglican International organization. Its name personifies the Roman ideals of virtue and dominance and shalom which means Peace in the Hebrew Bible. It is both centralized in Brussels but also decentralized around the world in that any existing group, civil or organization can join them for a price ( guess its sort of like a franchise) and customize it to the social ambience and politics of their own countries. Its pivot is the Sermon on the Mount from the Christian Bible, almost like the Lotus Sutra of Gautama Buddha is the anchor for the Nichiren Shoshu Soka Gakaii cult(Both centerpieces uplifting and inspiring).

The Early Christians, were surpressed and wiped out by the Roman Governors and their cohorts for carrying the authentic teachings of their friend and teacher Jesus the Christ. Some of the main players in the early Christianity were James, the brother of Jesus, Paul of Tarsus, Mary Magdelene, Joseph of Arimithea, Peter and others. Early Christianity is generally considered as Christianity between the death of Jesus around year 30 and the First Council of Nicaea in 325. The Early Christians actively opposed the Roman World System .What Early Christianity was,is at present largely unknown,its faint echoes still available to us in the Sermon on the Mount. Also, as you may know, there were many ecumenical councils, held by the Roman Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Orthodox Church. In these councils the articles of the creed, the dogmas were established. (By the way,the Eastern Orthodox Church does not subscribe to each and every dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.)
**
Secondly, some constructive criticism of Aloe's post:

Aloe says: "I was struck by the person who said they were equally as comfortable with Sant Mat as with Catholicism. Well, Charan’s daughter was sent to Catholic school so guess where Charan got his information in fusing some Catholic ideas onto Sikkism?"

Christianity has been comfortably existing in India since 52 C.E. There are Catholic churches as well as schools all over India. Dr. Randolph Stone was a close
associate and disciple of Charan Singh Ji. He wrote a book called the Mystic Bible while at the Dera and with Charan Singh ji around. Charan Singh ji was literate. It doesn't seem plausible that the only contact he had with Christianity would have been through his young daughter attending a parochial school.

Aloe: "Bible verses of God revealing Himself to mankind ran through my brain. Reading the Bible again I was shocked that Jesus said that he was God (that is what
the Son of God means in Jewish. It means you are God. That is what was so shocking to the Sanhedrin. They did not like Jesus claiming to be God. It was not in their
plans for a material kingship type Messiah). My New Age upbringing had always stated that Jesus never claimed to be God!"

But the awaited Messaih of the Sanhedrin in-fact is an earthly King. He is described as materially as can be! This is a real very Messaih, the Anointed One. Anointing was a special event for Kingship. "The Mashiach will be a descendent of the line of King David. He will know Jewish Law to its height, breadth and depth. He will be a great military leader and will battle and win for Israel. He will make righteous decisions. He will be a human being." Note: This paragraph is sporadically paraphrased with ideas from Judaism 101. http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

Additionally,Maimonides, a very high ranking Jewish scholar and philosopher emphatically states that Jesus is Not the Messiah.

"Many of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah, although
requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well. Views on whether Hebrew Bible passages are Messianic may vary from and among scholars of ancient Israel
looking at their meaning in original context and from and among rabbinical scholars.

Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counselors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City."

Some Jews[4] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[5]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)"

Wikipedia

Aloe: It is the Hindu way to accept contradictions, to accept nonsense. That is why Sant Mat can blithely preach that God emanated Himself in a churning motion and
precipitated the world out of himself.

Hinduism is a syncretic religion. It had to become this way because of the many invasions of that area by foreign barbarians whose only goal was to stuff their religions down the throats of the people of Aryavarta (The original self given name for their land by the indigenous people), the land of the Aryans, and to pillage its goods, culture, art and beauty, including owning the access to the ports along the coasts of the Indian Ocean. Under these conditions Hinduism had no choice but to absorb the beliefs of the conqueror, firstly because Hinduism is a philosophical system and for it, integrating external beliefs is no big deal;in a macrocosm, there is always place for the micro things. (Although I must say that in Hinduism dates and history don't seem to matter!)

The ability to accept contradictions is an ability of the highest order. This you call nonsense? Ordinary systems and people cannot do this. A gyana yogi or a gyana system can hold infinite views, infinite religions, infinite anything without freaking out or being fixated on any one thing. A karma yogi or a bhakti(devotion) yogi cannot do this. They can't stand a Gyana Yogi or Gyan (Wisdom). GOD emanating from himself is not an understanding of Santh Math alone Plotinus and other Greek philosophers have called it the First emanation of the Nous. They lived a long time before Kabir Das and Santh Math.

Aloe: A rock is as god- like as a Guru. The only difference is that the rock is unconscious that it is God and the Guru is conscious that he is God. Then Sant Mat can
turn around and say that God as Divinity created the material world and God transcends the creation. Both are equally true: the creation is God and the creation is transcended by God. The creation always existed and God also made the creation out of nothing. There, everyone can be happy in what they believe. Just believe whatever you want, even both at the same time!

This is because in order to understand the complexity yet the simplicity of the concept, a person needs to understand not only mystery wisdom but modern Quantum Physics, Differential Mathematics and other related subjects, including the works of Aristotle and others. I agree, many contradictions are indeed difficult to resolve. Paradoxes exist. You ought to look into fractals (Mandelbrot), then you will understand something like what you mentioned can happen purely from a design and mathematical point of view. You can also simply imagine a circle with a dot in its middle to get the sense of micro in (of) the macro.

Aloe: God’s plan is different from the New Age. Instead of humans inventing and discovering ways to be God, God reveals All to us and gives us a plan to obey so
that we can adore God in His Realm and be happy forever. It is really a no- brainer, it is that sad tendency to keep rebelling that is the problem!

And which Christian Church is going to take us there? Which catholic priest? The ones who have been guilty of sins against children? Or the Protestant
evangelists who have been guilty of all sorts of aberrant behavior as well? Can you tell a good Christian teacher from a bad one?

Truth can only be found by individuals in Freedom not by some pre-determined plan of the Gurus whether oriental or occidental.

Finally, the writers you mentioned might be interesting to read.

[3 months left]

Perhaps the most common delusion within religions and in spirituality is taking “metaphor” for “literal” truth.

For example, there can be no more beautiful story about the pitfall of belief in "Good" and "Evil" than the Bible Genesis story of Adam and Eve, eating the apple from the "tree of knowledge" of "good and evil," and getting "kicked out of paradise." In other words once you start believing in good and evil you create separation and are "banished from paradise," and yet we have seemingly intelligent adults taking this story as literal truth.

Don't even get me started about the "creating the world in 7 days" thing. What kind of person takes these things literally?

Similarly, almost everything in the Radhasoami books are metaphors, not to be taken literally. But if you are open to understanding, you can find some beautiful truths. I think it was Joseph Campbell who talked about myths containing more truth than anything else.

Now days Babaji is making it pretty clear that the RS books are not meant to be taken literally. To me that enhances their truths, it doesn't take it away. I wouldn't call Joseph Campbell a liar and fraud when I discovered his stories were not literally true. It was all about a deeper meaning.

Yes there will always be those who take the stories literally and miss the deeper meaning. For example, yes the Master will take you to Sach Khand, but what is the Master? The Master is not a human being in India, the Master is the cosmic power of the universe, the essence within us all.

In the end the teachings of RS say the same thing as Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Ramana Maharshi and a thousand other spiritual teachers. What do they say? Non-attachment, surrender, fearlessness that sort of thing. Yes we all loved the idea that we could get initiated and get to Sach Khand in 4 lifetimes even if we just spent all of our time watching TV... but somewhere we knew it couldn't work that way.

What kind of universe could this be in which 95% had to find the truth through their own suffering and discovery and somewhere there was a group of loafers who signed up for initiation and got a free ride to heaven? We all knew there was something wrong with this somehow.

https://sites.google.com/site/9radhasoamidelusions/

[Robert Paul Howard]

"I would...call Joseph [Smith]...a liar and fraud when I discovered his stories were not literally true."

Some of us are "literalists." And, thereupon, become churchless. Metaphor allows for taking away the actual validity of any words that have actually been said/written.

Robert Paul Howard

[tucson]

3 months left wrote in quotes:

"Now days Babaji is making it pretty clear that the RS books are not meant to be taken literally."

--I have heard that Gurinder says the inner regions are not real and are just metaphors or symbolic. I find that odd. Charan didn't say that. At Charan's initiation (I don't know what Gurinder does) these regions were described with certain characteristics of light and sound. If they were just metaphors why whould Charan discuss them at length as if they were real and give such significance and time to them?

What Gurinder is clearly saying, and satsangis should take notice, is that he is a metaphor and symbolic. Therefore his function and status as guru is entirely abstract and, ultimately, unreal.

[3 months left]

Don't you get it Tucson? There is no car, there is no watch, there is no shoe... all there is is Awareness appearing as those forms.

Ramana uses the example of a dream fire needing dream water. The water is as real as the fire.

Those inner regions as no more real than this one. The Master is no more or less real than this one.

If you believe there is something real here, other than AWARENESS, then you are well served to believe in something that will remedy any of its problems.

What is real? Is there anything real other than awareness?

[tucson]

3 months left,

Fine, but you did not address the question in my comment.

[3 months left]

Tucson you wrote:
"If they were just metaphors why whould Charan discuss them at length as if they were real and give such significance and time to them?"

For the same reason he may have referred to his watch as if it were real. For the same reason he may have referred to his car as if it were real. The inner regions are as real as the car or the watch... which is unreal.

The regions are not “just metaphors” ... the stories in the books are metaphors. Kal is a metaphor.

The full blown experience of Perfect Unity and Perfect Love can be had anywhere though so the idea that Sach Khand is just a place or a region is not completely true. Perfect Unity and Love is more than a place or region AND it can be that too. It is the sort of thing where all language falls apart though isn't it?

[Jesse]

I'm always astonished at what "spiritual masters" can get away with.Especially in the modern age.
Buddha and Nanak,to use two easy examples, had to debate and prove their knowledge. People put up really hard questions and expected them to answer in a concise and logical manner.
The old RS books sort of covered their bases in that respect even if none of it were true. They had a cosmology and a system of ethics etc.
The new RS is a dumbed down version of an already sort of flimsy system. It couldn't afford to be any weaker but that's exactly what Gurinder is doing. He's just trying to strip it down but now even the essentials are gone. We're just left with his infallible word and that's proven to be repetitive,possibly scripted,and often deflective.
It's not a spiritual system that requires a guru and especially not a complete city in India. It's a guy saying "do some meditation."

[tucson]

3 months left,

Sure, all language falls apart trying to explain reality but that is not the point of what I am getting at.

Charan presented the teachings as if they were real. He sat on the dais in the role of a master and let millions believe he was one. He gave thousands of hours of satsang delivering absolutes about karma, diet, guru/disciple relationship, soul, God, inner regions, light, sound, necessity of initiation by a perfect param sant sat guru (like him), marked souls, meditation, grace, seva, and all the rest. He wrote books on these subjects and the whole Sant Mat cosmology.

Why initiate a disciple into what is at best a metaphor? Why perpetuate a myth and what amounts to a pile of BS? Why spend a lifetime doing this?

Now Gurinder is saying what Charan taught is not real. Since Gurinder's authority comes from Charan and Charan's teachings were not real by Gurinder's own statements, what does that make Gurinder? It makes him a really fake, fake guru saying his fake guru predessesor's teachings weren't real. He even admits it and yet he allows the illusion to perpetuate. What gall. What hubris.

I think Jesse has it about right in his/her comment above. Gurinder's just a guy, sick of trying to explain all the BS (symbols and metaphors), saying to do meditation and while you're at it send some money for my family business so I can build more centers and expand its wealth and power. I'm not going to twist your arm for the dough but I don't have to because you believe it would be so good for purification of your mind and lightening your karmic load if you did. Service to a perfect master is always beneficial, right? And if you give the really big bucks like the Petaluma frozen veg food magnates you might even be able to ride on my private jet and shmooze a bit with GIHF. How cool is that?

[Moongoes]

quote Tucson: Charan didn't say that

Moongoes: Oh yes Tucson he did the exactly the same i read the newest Charan question and answers books and he did say the same.
Many people who preach today that these are not lands to travel to but levels of consciousness thought in the past that these are lands and now they think these are levels of consciousness and now they have to tell everybody that these are levels of consciousness.Jah rastafari
-be the flow.
And a little peace of music for you guys enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGmCbQ28tMo&playnext=1&list=PLB072A5B87902D0BB&feature=results_video

[Janya Barrish]

A metaphor is a place holder for something that is abstract and cannot be described straightforwardly. A metaphor does not imply that the underlying thing (fact, fiction, phenomenon,noumenon etc.)does not exist. They simply call attention to how two different things are similar.

Descriptions of say Sach Khand by Guru Nanak do not appear to be metaphors. Sach Khand is described as something real but hard to comprehensively explain. Sach Khand is a purely spiritual reality and as such cannot be explained by words and language that are designed for and suited only for our physical world.

Guru Nanak describes Sach Khand as follows:

ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ੝ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥
Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankĝr. Kar kar vėkẖai naḝar nihĝl.
In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides. Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.
ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਤ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥
Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand. Jė ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ.
There are planets, solar systems and galaxies. If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ ॥ ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹ੝ਕਮ੝ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ ॥
Ŧithai lo­a lo­a ĝkĝr. Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kĝr.
There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation. As He commands, so they exist.
ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰ੝ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰ੝ ॥੩੭॥
vėkẖai vigsai kar vīcẖĝr. Nĝnak kathnĝ karṛĝ sĝr. ॥37॥
He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices. O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ॥37॥
Ref: www.sikhiwiki.org

Kal (Kaal, Kaala) means "time" and "darkness" in Sanskrit. Is time a metaphor? If so for what?

If Gurinder Singh Dhillon has changed directions, he has done so by simply abstracting himself out of the real Santh Math ideology.

[Janya Barrish]

But what happens to these levels of consciousness from a Rastafari point of view, once we are dead? Do they just dissolve as lovely figments of our collective imaginations?

Supposedly not according to some.

But what ever! All I can vouch for is that I am COMPLETELY convinced that I am going to be going somewhere in the time-space machine of my true I ness until I dissolve into that most amazing, white scintillating light. And if this mind-twisting journey of my I only lasts from the moments of my dying to my actual death, I accept it stoically, because I know there is that LIGHT at the end of the tunnel of life, not just for me but for everyone.

[3 months left]

Tucson, you said:

“Why initiate a disciple into what is at best a metaphor? Why perpetuate a myth and what amounts to a pile of BS? Why spend a lifetime doing this? Now Gurinder is saying what Charan taught is not real.”

This is such a deep question Tucson, I know what you are saying. You are saying, if its all just metaphors why did I just spend all those years trying to hear the sound and get there? Why was I mislead?

In my opinion it is a matter of steps or growing up. Connecting with the shabd energy is a means of maturing. It's a stairway. Ramana said something like, the ultimate instruction is “Just Be.” I could not have heard that 20 years ago. Gradually, little by little it's beginning to dawn. After all of these years of sound current practice, I'm am starting to be able to hear, “relax, surrender, just be.”

Not one moment of that shabd practice was time wasted in my case and yet for others they may just hear Ramana's message “just be” and totally get it and no sound current practice is necessary.

It's sort of like Charan said to us, “here is something that will help you get into the position to be clear. Ultimately there will be another step.” In my opinion our brother Gurinder has taken that next step. He's not throwing away the ladder he climbed to get there... yet he is telling us about the view from there.

[Jesse]

Janya,

Gurinder still sells pictures of his own face in the same place as he sells books written by his predecessors.Books that clearly describe the RS tenets which went unchanged for 200 years. How is that 'abstracting himself out of the real Sant Mat ideology?"

Burn the books,buy the books,we still print the books,buy the books,burn the books.

If Gurinder weren't chasing money and had the RS cult not focused on expansion for so many years, I'd think he were using Zen tales to teach a lesson or to confuse us into realizing the futile nature of our outward search. Now I think he's just being evasive.

Metaphors don't explain his actions nor do they provide inspiration or insight to a great many of his followers.Many of his "metaphors" aren't even about the regions and the states of consciousness anyway.

His metaphors are usually used when he wants to subtly blame his disciple for not succeeding in attaining the magical sach khand(that conveniently doens't exist) as promised by RS books(for sale at the satsang. Buy Them to Burn Them©.)

Remember,when something bad happens,it's all your fault.When something good happens,that only comes from my grace,even if I claimed before that the experience you described doesn't actually exist."Doesn't exist" was a metaphor as was "Sach Khand." And as 'doesn't exist' and 'Sach Khand' were both metaphorical terms,so is "disco lights™." Thus saith the master.

Master Jesse

[tucson]

Moongoes,
I know what Charan said, brah. I read all his books. I attended many satsangs in his presence. I personally attended numerous question-answer sessions he personally gave at the Dera Guest House. I was initiated by him personally in a small group. I shook his hand, spoke privately with him several times and I know what he said. He didn't say some of the things Gurinder says.

3 months left wrote:

"It's sort of like Charan said to us, “here is something that will help you get into the position to be clear. Ultimately there will be another step.”"

--BUT, he didn't say that.

And where did I say that I did not hear sound or see light in 20 years of meditation? However, I never saw the radiant form except in dreams. I thought, wow, I'm making progress.

Now I say to what? to where? by whom? Where is there anything tangible in all this?

3 months, you seem more attuned to the Maharshi's message these days. A good message and you can spin it any way you like just like Charan used to spin "St. John" to make Jesus' teachings fit Sant Mat dogma. But in my view there is little similarity between Ramana Maharshi and classical Sant Mat dogma. And apparently less and less similarity between what Gurinder says and classical Sant Mat dogma.

I agree entirely with Master Jesse (above).

[Moongoes]

quote tucson: He didn't say some of the things Gurinder says.

Moon:Yeah sureley they speak differently that is obvious isn't it? I personaly don't mind what both said i just said i don't see much difference and i have read of Charan saying the same.I could go and find the answer but really,no thank you.

I said for inner worlds he said exactly the same thing. These names are metaphorical and these are just levels of consciousness-

quote Tucson: I know what Charan said, brah. I read all his books. I attended many satsangs in his presence. I personally attended numerous question-answer sessions he personally gave at the Dera Guest House. I was initiated by him personally in a small group. I shook his hand, spoke privately with him several times and I know what he said. He didn't say some of the things Gurinder says.

Moon: I know that man i read hundreds of your words and you don't need to twist thst brah for me that much, you have my respect and you don't need to prove anything to me man you have my respect.
I just informed you that i read from newest q's and a's 3 books of Charan about the levels of consciousness.Peace man

For Tucson,tAo,Tara and Mike Williams and others

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDjiiM4hgfQ

[Janya Barrish]

The way I understand metaphors is that they stand for something else which is even more abstract. That they are coherent with the described abstract.

Gurinder Singh Dhillon abstracts himself out of the original Santh Math ideology because the original, that of Kabir Das, and of Guru Nanak (to a degree) and some others earlier to both, are in my reading of them, not presented as metaphors but as "things in themselves."

But from what I have learned about Gurinder Singh so far (and I admit it is very limited) demonstrates to me that he appears to be a mere representation of the original Santh Math teachings because he omits, changes or slantes the core detail(ie.,the Santh Math spiritual realities as "things in themselves" and not mere metaphors),the very raison d'être for RSSB and RSSB Masters!

[Janya Barrish]

Nice, the link Moongoes.

The names and titles, such as Sat Nam, Sach Khand etc., I agree could be metaphors for states of consciousness, however, the "beingness" of these states and locales, in that they appear to be conscious in and off themselves could justify personifications such as say,"The true one", "The merciful one", "the light" and others in my opinion.

[Jesse]

Faqir Janya,

Do you read Gurmukhi and the languages that earlier sants wrote in or do you rely on the RSSB translations for much of your info?

I ask not to criticize you but because I often ask my Panjabi friends to explain things and I read other translations as well.

From my perspective it seems that most RSSB stuff is quite limited in its translations and not really honest. They claim to translate only to reveal the mystical aspects of older poetry but often they take excessive "artistic" license and completely change and minimize the writings to their most childish form.
Sometimes it's a good thing to reduce the amount of culturally specific terms and references but other times I think it creates a false image of what the poet was actually expressing.

What do you think?

Master Jesse

[Janya Barrish]

Absolutely, Massah,

I agree with your holy wisdom.

I do write and understand Hindi. I understand Urdu and can write my name in Arabic. I understand Punjabi but can't read or write Gurmukhi.

You are right, whose translations are the most accurate and not excessively flowery in approach? I do not know. Max Mueller used to be the bench mark.

Frankly, RSSB books turn me off. Always did. I always had the feeling of not wanting to open an RSSB book even while holding it. The thought would always cross my mind that this was a waste of time. With HPB it was different, vibrations.

But the last few days, I am more concerned about the reported finding of the Hall of Records. The paw of the Sphinx entry. The American archeologists and the Egyptian Government apparently colluding to quash the finding of documents there, that reveal ancient Egyptian history.

I am the invisible elephant?

Faqir Janya

[Jesse]

Janya,
What is HPB?
jesse

[Janya Barrish]

Helena Petrovna Blavatsky

[Jesse]

Tara,
I was initiated in 2007 and describing the regions was a big part of the initiation. So it seems that the regions are real and objective,even for foreigners,all the way until one becomes disillusioned or asks about them. That's the point in which the 'science' dissolves into metaphor.

I'm sure someone would try to use the experiment which shows how photons change their course when being observed to justify an idea that Sach Khand exists unless you're observing it.This must be why they tell us to meditate with no thoughts for rewards. We make Sach Khand disappear when we acknowledge its existence. Shameless chelas.We're so naughty for expecting to receive what GIHF promises.

Jesse

[Marina]

Interesting post Tara. Just wondering why in your opinion, you think the RS teachings have different approaches in the east v west. I agree, that their definitely seems to be two stories or two messages been put across.
Maybe it has something to do with the perceptions of the different cultures? - east seems more attuned to Guru worship and there does seem to be way more Gods and Goddesses in east than in west. Each culture appears to have a different set of values and thereby, it would appear to me the sensible thing to do - meet someone from where they are at and communicate from their level of understanding/maturity.

The sunday satsang at dera, given by Gurinder which is translated into english for westerners has (to me) slowly being changing from old fashioned sant mat to nowadays, a version which seems to fit in more with the english style.
If you look at Ramana and Ramakrishna - two different styles of seemingly the same thing. Ramana was into what is the self? the self being everywhere (yet he had his own God - Arunachala) whereas Ramakrishna was all into 'the divine mother etc etc.

I see the 'salvation laden theme' is directed at those who believe they need to be saved - not necessarily because of being literate or illiterate but because of their conscious or unconscious belief in being bad, or the belief in separation, their conditioning, thereby needing to be saved. If you look at history, many of the saints have been poor and illiterate, not all have been rich and wealthy.

I see that the truth speaks the one language but it depends on the maturity of the listener and the one speaking , what is heard or what meaning one gives to it. That seems to be the problem - we are all hearing from our own understanding. Surely you can't blame the messenger for that?

I don't know where 'Master Jesse' picked up this one

"Remember, when something bad happens ,it's all your fault .When something good happens, that only comes from my grace, even if I claimed before that the experience you described doesn't actually exist."Doesn't exist" was a metaphor as was "Sach Khand."

Ok, yep Jesse you did give the example of buy the books to burn the books but my take on that is; if it's helping you, buy the books, if not burn them. But because there is seemingly a need for them, of course they'll exist. If it was me, I would say burn all the books cos I think they are old fashioned and misleading (maybe if I re-read them I would feel different though not inclined to) but that would be arrogant of me to take something away from someone else just because I no longer had a need.

Again, I have to mention Aloe's comment that Gurinder has apparently said :
“I will be what you want me to be.”
What is wrong with this? Not one thing imho. We all do it with life in some from or other. If we think the Master is the physical form who can save us then that's what he'll mean to us. I had the need to believe that at one stage.

Marina

[Janya Barrish]

What ever happened to the "Light" part of this initiation? No one seems to bring it up anymore, or do they? Its always the sound part that is the focus it seems. I recall this being an initiation into the Light and Sound. Is the light still part of the teachings or has it been discarded?

Tara well said, "The melange is a trick, a clever play of words that is difficult to sift for those who are sucked in, the believing multitudes."

Basically my understanding is that the initiation is to lead one to a death like state, where our usual dependence on our senses (but how can we get rid of the brain?)is suspended, stopped. This leads to a development or an awareness of the inner senses of perception, those of sight and hearing; the seeing of the light(s) and the hearing of the sound s, then becomes possible.

Interestingly this type of initiation is not exclusive to the East, ancient European mystery traditions initiated into the Sound and Light as well.

[Jesse]

Janya

You said- "Interestingly this type of initiation is not exclusive to the East, ancient European mystery traditions initiated into the Sound and Light as well."

RSSB capitalizes on this fact immensely. The Treasury of Mystic Terms by John Davidson and co. is a 5 or 6 volume set that tries to make links to all these traditions from all over the world through the use of translated mystical terminology.

A friend of mine who writes on Ismaili mysticism thinks that it is quite offensive to compare the traditions and experiences in the way in which modern religions such as RSSB and most modern yoga/hindu schools try to do.

He has studied and come to do translations in old Persian as well as Sanskrit and some European languages. According to him, the similarities of terms such as "light" and sound" etc. are superficial and it's impossible to compare them since the traditions and languages are so completely different.

Are Chi and Prana the same? Not at all but one could easily translate them as such.

Jesse

[Janya Barrish]

I entirely agree with you Jesse.

When the actual "The True Light" is described as psychedelic disco lights(?)the describer is suspect.

What I am referring to is the very secret, process oriented teachings of the ancient European mysteries that very few know of, these have naught to do with terminologies.

Your friend is probably right. Lots of pseudos, deceptions and tricks on the way.

[Marina]

Hi Tara,

you said "If everything that comes from disciples is just a projection onto him, why does Sant Mat exist?"

I see it exists because there is a need for it. We all at some time in our lives want to have someone else take responsibility for us. I did it. You did it. We do it until we no longer have the need for it. But to blame someone for hood winking us, is just not taking responsibility for ourselves and pointing the finger at someone else is giving our power to that person. We can fail to see our own part in it, or our own wanting or maybe we grew up with it and took it on innocently without question as 'gospel truth'.

Tara:"The whole idea behind Sant Mat is to be in the fold of an all pervading Master, who takes on your karmic load and by doing so, he makes you go through what is ultimately the best for your spiritual ascension. Do you have a choice ? No, that was given up the day you were initiated and the Master became the captain of your ship."

--I have no problem with this. Hand everything over to the Guru. What is the Guru? To me it is like handing over control - the little me, my will versus reality, call it what you want and in that way there is no suffering because you are not fighting life/events/experiences/karma.
Call it what you like. Trust in the Guru, God, life.....it boils down to the same thing in the end. We do have a choice....a choice to accept what life gives us - or not. It doesn't mean that we have to be a doormat or anything like that but instead of reacting or fighting, we can respond to what's true for us in the moment.

I haven't read Sar Bachan or any other of the books in years - I think I have a reaction to them, or at least to how I perceived what they were saying when I did read them. I do remember somewhat that the Guru was held in high reverence but we take that in a very one sided manner and only show this reverence to the Guru a lot of the times so we will somehow get to sach khand on the Gurus' coat tails, so to speak. But hey come on, this happens in all areas of life. Be nice to the person in some authority and you'll get special benefits! And at the same time, be cruel or rude to people around us or who pop into our lives.

There has been much discussion regarding the Guru taking the disciple at the time of death. People of christian background reportedly have visions of Jesus (radiant form) at troubled times or near death experiences. To me, life will show up in whatever form in the mind, that one is attached to.

If some people are unable to understand the oneness stuff, why do they need it then? Surely they are at the right place? Each to their own understanding. When they tire of the old stuff - if ever, they will make a choice from what they want and from what their perceptions or beliefs now are.

I can understand Tara why you have a problem with "when it comes to putting your heart into something that you'll hold on to as an anchor, as your guiding light."

If you don't need the anchor anymore let it go is my motto. I do understand somewhat cos my anchor has changed in ways and it was major confusing to me at times. But to try to force someone else to see the same way, when they do want it for their anchor and don't even want to shift their anchor- whether or not we agree, is messing with peoples own choice and really saying we know best for them.

You do seem sad that things have changed from Charan's days. I take it you have a problem with Gurinder and not with Charan. I'm sure you'll tell me if that is not the case:.)

So Tara, do you see that Charan made a mistake in handing over to Gurinder or do you now believe RS was bullshit all along and all your experiences where make believe?

I do enjoy what you have to say Tara. It makes me see other sides but that doesn't mean I always see eye to eye with you. ;)

Marina

[blogger pain]

Well said Marina

[Janya Barrish]

I am just curious as to how Aloe is able to reconcile the glaring foundational differences between Archbishop Lefebvre's right wing, authoritarian, anti-muslim, anti-ecumenical, pro-monarchy society, the SSPX a stalwart of the Christian/Catholic faith, unbending and unappeasing, associating with Saints like Padre Pio, an intriguing, disciplined "Master", an authentic Stigmatist and after whom the SSPX is named and Pax Christi a supposed peace organization,ostensibly forwarding the interests of communism, appeasing to all, left wing/liberal organization with members such as Mr. Weakland, Archbishop of Milwaukee of the "Abuse by Priests" scandals ilk.

The only similarity I see in the two is that they are both considered to be schismatic organizations by the Holy See.

[Janya Barrish]

Here comes the hog again, I mean the elephant . . . but I just have to share this. . . I found The Mystic Bible by Dr. Randolph Stone in my book stack! Why am I excited? This is an out of print book selling for 200 something on amazon and slightly less on Abe books. But more importantly, this book was written by the creator of Polarity Therapy. He was quite an interesting fella, Dr. Stone. Maharaj Charan Singh holds the copyrights to this book.

Its also interesting in that Dr. Stone gives his take on the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Gen. 2:15, 16, 17. he says its the center of the desire body (I take that to mean the astral body)and it has the power of further involution into matter by attraction and craving. I bring this up because Aloe has referred to this tree in her post.

Chapter X1X is titled "Breezing through the Hexateuch.

Hexateuch are the first six books of the Hebrew Bible.

http://www.polarity.tk/about-randolph-stone.php

Its actually an intelligent and well explained RSSB Book, this could be reason its out of print. In any case, I've changed my mind - Don't Burn The Books - They are worth a lot.

[Marina]

Hi Tara,

Yep, I agree with you there, that I don't understand the 'old school' RS teachings like you do as I haven't been brought up with them. I may not understand what it was like for you but I understand the feeling of being special or not being special.
Maybe it was easier for me to let go of the catholic church because I had a negative view of it in regards to myself but if I had felt special I wonder would I have been able to let go so easy.

Saying that, I still am finding remnants of the effects of that religion and unconscious beliefs around it and my own perceived ideas about what life and I was all about from that upbringing.

I can see when I got initiated into RS that I did indeed feel special, elite, one of the chosen few to be saved blah blah blah.....but for me it was hard to get carried away with that one when I heard Gurinder many times in many situations talk of 'sant mat is not the only path. To think so is arrogance.' 'You are no different than anyone else' Somehow that brought me back down to earth so to speak.

Regarding with messing with peoples anchors, I was actually thinking of myself though looking back at my post, I see that I did indeed use the words 'we' so I can see how it could be taken that way.

No one can really see eye to eye with anyone as no one has had exactly anyone else s experience.

I don't see it as arguing, I see it as a discussion - your viewpoint can bring color to mine or more understanding. To me, it's all around the block again surely but this time around I might take in something I didn't notice before.

We haven't' been around the block really with this one:
"You do seem sad that things have changed from Charan's days. I take it you have a problem with Gurinder and not with Charan.

So Tara, do you see that Charan made a mistake in handing over to Gurinder or do you now believe RS was bullshit all along and all your experiences where make believe?"

Marina

[Janya Barrish]

To know that spiritual regions and spiritual beings exist is fortunate. Here one is in a state!, ~X , but specific to the region kind ;-

To obtain a "real" and "true" understanding of these regions, from a wider, rational and experiential perspective is challenging but not impossible.

Faqir Janya's wisdom of the day.

(thnk Q Jesse sir)

[blogger pain]

Burn the books,
Well its really strange and wierd too see experienced aged mature persons aren't able to understand simple messages,
and they themselves have given so many complicated,sometimes illogocal,incorrect statements and messages in their blog,
For instance Brian,As per my assessment brain has never understood even the basics of SANTMAT,
Might be he do not agree and will offend saying he spent 35 years and so done so much of sewa written books has been incharge for years vice - versa
these things doesnt help neither work in spirituality aka santmat.

There is a very beautiful song by sukhwinder singh,
Pyar hota hain tho hota hain ya hota hi nahi,
If Love happens it happens if not it doesnt.
There is no other way ,middle way or any other thought or process.
So same applies to santmat.
Either you understand Santmat either you do not.
But all the one in these blog mostly and unfortunately sailing in middle path,
That means either they havent understood,either misuderstood.
Because spirituality is not a new thing,its there from the beginining,and almost all the saints have sung the same thing.
I see people mentioning here RS as a modern religion or theory,
thats completely a wrong input in thier brains,
RS is same as any spiitual path,its not a religion at all.
Becasue some systmes has to be followed to fun an spiritual institute so may be its outer look for unknown might appeal to look like a religion which it is not.
Burn the books has been said to that single discple,who kept on asking master repeatedly about many books references,
thats why he told burn all books,
why because for that single individual,he was so sticked to reading that he has forget to implement,
if any discple read the spirituality and follow it,he will left with no questions.
Its because he lacks,he analyze and get into trap of getting answers outside,
but where as all saints said the same thing ANSWER is inside.Actually EVERYthing is INSIDE.
But because there inability to get inside and practise it,the wander outside.Quite natural.

They have written so much about charan singh baba jis other women stories and smuggling stories,well these are just a direct propoganda from the opposition,
From the time soami ji bestowed his grace on jaimal singh baba ji,Agra people found an rival,
Though there are many Rivals for RSSB,
Everyone tries to cook a story try to defame RS and RS masters.

But all in vain.
if 10 disciples are leaving santmat,100 are joining.
Its a continous never ending process.

And they have been discussions about santmat versions here.
Look guys,Masters never change anything,its disciple who does the changes,but the name and credit of blame goes to master.
Every saint has preached according to the situation,when situation changes there master does little changes in thier teachings as well,
because from the time of jaimal singh baba ji,scattering of mind has increased threshold,so people are more in doubts,more losing of faith and belief that before,
At the time of Hazur Baba sawan singh ji,the situation was that,that baba ji used to do satsang at anytime,there were no fix timings,
sometimes he is doing satsang in the morning,sometimes in the evening,and sometimes in the night,
because at that time the technology and the advancement of the life is low,
people were more innocent and honest and had a peaceful relaxed life,no TV,Internet,media or any object of distraction.
Sangat use to be very less,so baba ji use to visit various villages in harayana,punjab and himachal and use to give discourses at any time.
But is that thing posssible now?
Not at all..Sangat has increased 1000 times,people are busier than ever,
In delhi center when baba ji comes,everyone starts at morning 5 reach at 6 in the center and afte completion of satsang it take around 3-5 in the noon to reach back,so hectic.
So now these changes master have not done,its because of disciple changes took place,
Charan singh baba ji use to give darshan sitting in the chair after the satsang,

But because the sangat increase and there was lot of tiff to manage the sangat,
present baba ji decided,do not trouble sangat,
i will go to them,and this new car darshan has started,for the benefit of sangat,not master himself,

Tara says santmat has changed,i say its tara point of view and insight changed,santmat is same,
you buy samsung,HTC,motorola or LG the hardware may differ but the OS ANDROID is same in all.
so might be because of time and situations changes happen but the essence of santmat doesnt change,it cant be changed.

And doubting on charan singh baba jis character,i think the one who is assissnating charan singh baba jis character doesnt know him at all.

And he himself in his best appointed guriender singh baba ji as his successor,

now because people find many outer changes,they think santmat has changed,this master has changed,
I say Yes present master changed MANY MANY things
But all are for the benefit of sangat.And it shows.Nothing is hidden.

Undertsanding santmat with a logic and mind,one can never understand it,
Its written in Guru granth sahib,bhagwat gita and even in quran and bible.
One cant find god with mind.
Mind is the barrier between the way.Unless we learn to make hold of our mind and follow the instructions and experience ourself,we can never know the real truth.

[Jesse]

Blogger "Pain",

Please,next time before you write,remind yourself that exactly what you wrote is one complete essay on everything we disbelieve.
Everyone has thought these things,questioned them, and came to the conclusion that it's not true. Besides,you're almost verbatim quoting from RS books in your justifications of the differences in satsang styles etc.

You're talking about Gurinder's darshan golf cart and Sawan having irregular satsang times. We're talking about Gurinder's accumulation of properties internationally and Gurinders use of his god status to manipulate his chelas and make millions of dollars in an unethical manner or Charan using his status to have goods delivered to India illegally.

These things take precedent in our assessments of RS and they shape our views. Had these Babas lived extremely ethical lives there may have been a chance that we'd be less negative in how we describe them but now we can't.

We see a group of men who are living a cliched Indian lifestyle of being all knowing sages and collecting large amounts of cash to do it. It's not only RSSB.It's a national problem with severe consequences and it's totally acceptable to some,but not to us.Times should change and religion should be on it's way out instead of taking on more elusive forms with more elusive and more powerful leaders, in my opinion.

When one trusts a Guru he is likely to accept that there is some forgiveness due for his Guru's faults. When the trust is lost there is far less forgiveness. Most of us see a business man who is methodically expanding his business. We see no reason to worship him as we see no reason to worship the Ambani bros.We actually distrust these Babas as much as we distrust the Ambanis because they are quite similar at many levels.

My advice to you is to not worry about we who stopped believing. We're not coming back and we're not shutting up.

Jesse

[Marina]

Hi Tara,

(Sorry only replying now. Life here been very busy the past few days)

Thanks for giving your perspective on things. I really enjoyed your post. I think it's helpful to hear other perspectives, as it is easy to get stuck in your own and close off to other perspectives - 'I know' can be a dangerous thing! And it also leads to more understanding and less judgement hearing things from another side :)

Marina

[Spiritual Truth Seeker]

Has anyone at this website experienced ANYTHING resembling what has been written about in the RS books? Even the lowest end of the Astral Region? You don't have to violate your agreement not to talk about your inner experiences, just answer that one question- have you experienced anything in meditation that there are worlds beyond the one we are living?

[anil]

Utter nonesense. Very poor umderstanding of santmat and no idea of the path. God bless you my dear. Pls follow what you think is right way of reaching God. If you think anything illegal then go file a suite. Lets notdump garbage wiyh out any substance. God bless you.

[Manmeet Singh]

My Profound thanks to Brian, Tao, Tucson, Tara and others for sharing your knowledge and experience. I have benefited a lot from your posts.
I would like to share my experience:-
I was drawn to RSSB recently after remaining atheist for a long time (from age 11-20). It seemed to me that no one can concoct such a detailed story of creation/supernatural unless it was true. The story seemed so authentic. Then there were the beautiful qualities of masters mentioned. Other influences were my friends, the greed of salvation, my ego/good luck on having found the perfect master and to a minor extent - the looks of the master (Being a native of Punjab - it was in my psyche to imagine the master looking like Sikh gurus; I think they keep this facade for the same reason).

I kept my faith (blind faith as advocated by my friends) in them for few years. Started reading books on the subject. Whenever i raised any doubt, i got the same dogmatic replies such as "Who are we to judge the masters?" or "Masters says that critics are our friends". This is similar to this example:A student asked the teacher to clear a doubt. Teacher didn't know the answer; instead of answering, the teacher preached to the class that asking doubts was a good habit and that one should make a habit of asking doubts and thus tactfully avoided the question.

I have been to two satsangs (24th March and 31st March 2013) and quickly realized that the reason the stories are so authentic is because they are perfecting them for 200 years. It is the same talk repeated again and again. Here are my observations:-
1) Most followers have huge spiritual ego on having found the correct path
2) Gurinder Singh is very tactful in his speech. According to rssb literature it is the quality of master to never criticize anyone, yet all he does in his satsangs is criticize earlier religions in a very tactful way. He says that all the rituals/superstitions were there to create only the atmosphere.
3) Religions always hold onto those concepts which are yet unexplained by science. RSSB is nothing but adapting itself to modern science. It believes is concepts such as soul, karma, cycle of rebirth and meditation. The question is why God is realized only through meditation (which is mostly concerned with our nervous system and is not fully explained by science yet).
4)This question was asked at the 31st March 2013 satsang:
Satsangi asks: If our purpose is to reunite with God, Why were we separated in the first place?
Gurinder Singh replies: If parents ask their kids to always remain in home, will they obey? No the kids will go out and explore. It is the same with us.
5) Rssb functions on two key principles : That of Greed and Fear

Religious cults are on rise in India. "Art of Living" is a very dangerous cult growing rapidly which is targeted mostly at students.
Anyways, i feel lucky to have found this website :)

[Free]

Gurinder has made it clear that he does not like it when as soon as he speaks there are ten different versions of what he has said. He says you have enough books and recordings to explain sant mat to you. He says that spiritual maturity is quietness. No need to tell of your experiences or lack of them or that you are even on the “path”. The IRS can figure out if his private business is tied in with the spiritual center and then determine if the center should lose its non-profit status. I remember Charan Singh saying he would not permit overseas centers “at this time”. The four lifetimes were never a dogma, only a generalization from what Charan specifically told a specific satsangi. Charan was also wealthy. He also had errant family members. People argued over what “master” said back in the 1970’s also. Everything in the West was much smaller, more “Christianized”, made more palatable to Westerners. I gained a lot from the “path” in those early days, too! Had I known that Gurinder was going to say no to the four lifetimes, you get to start over as an amoeba and go up the ranks to human for an eon if you mess up instead, I probably would never have joined the “path”! Had I known he was going to say that the meditation he taught was no different from an addictive drug trip except that one was natural, the other artificial, I would probably never have joined the “path”! Hope this helps.
Centers can be dangerous. In India Dera, an old lady was trampled to death under the hay meant for comfort seating. I talked with the shaken lady who thought she had been carried by the fanatical crowd over her lump of body under the hay. The sevadars could not control the crowd. I was carried by a crowd as I tried to enter the Satsanghar area which was completely clear, in the front gate. I was new and did not know that most people went in the side entrance. All of a sudden, a fanatical mob pressed against me, up and against the gate. Quick sevadars opened the gate and got me in before I was crushed to death, along with 50 unauthorized others! I broke Indian custom and crossed the completely empty circle around Charan’s widow that Indians formed in respect for her because the crowd was pressing too hard. It was hard, however, common sense before custom! I was glared at, but a Western man ran after me and thanked me for saving his life, as he was being pushed to the ground to be trampled under their feet. I tried to tell sevadars there was a broken brick outside the Western area, but no one paid attention. Guess who hurt their back tripping over the brick!! Even though I was very physically sick, I wish I had made more effort somehow about the brick! At Petaluma site a tractor nearly ran me down and another one (or another driver in the same tractor) lifted and rattled me! A lady started chocking me for no good reason. A man stopped her. Thank you whoever you were! Centers are conducive to introspection which can open one to suggestion and hallucination.
Someone told me (who I found out after they died was a high ranking CIA) they were investigating Barry Berman. The Dera was being investigated for possible military involvement with something or other. I learned directly from de Vries that he was asking people to bring goods such as books, medical supplies and computers, to Dera in their suitcases and to keep the goods covered and “not to worry about customs”. This is called smuggling.
In the 1980’s someone who worked on the defense shield at Pt. Hueneme told me the government was investigating gurus who wanted to set up theocracies and were using mind control and religion to control their followers. This is why I am recommending the following books and websites.
Perhaps this will help seekers after truth. Read the Mystical City of God by Mother Mary de Agreda. It explains heaven through the Virgin Mary’s eyes better than any other book. People either love it or hate it. There is no in between with this book. Read about her life on www.traditioninaction.org site. They have a fantastic history site. Europe was not what is taught today. The book Windswept House by Malichi Martin is a novel which is more fact than fiction, about Vatican involvement in Globalism. This is a story (the globalization of religions) which many religions today are caught in, including perhaps RSSBA. The Interior Castle by St. Theresa of Avila gives great meditation advice, especially how to discern what is true and untrue in visions. The book Spiritual Combat by Dom Lorenzo Scupoli is good. His advice is simple. Tell all visions to go away. Those that remain are not from within you but are from God who is outside of you. Open Letter to Confused Catholics by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre could be retitled Open Letter to Confused Everybody! I hope that this helps people solve the muddle. To paraphrase Donald Walters, God is neutral energy. Goodness gets you closer to God and bad actions further away. But God is neither good nor evil. Merge in God and you experience everything, good and evil, but stay in a bliss state. Sounds like “eat of the tree of knowledge and be ye as gods” to me! Is this similar to Gurinder’s alleged statement that there is no God, guru or heaven? In which direction are you going? To experience everything as “god” or to adore God in only goodness with no bad?
Gurinder stressed to take responsibility for your own actions, right and wrong. You have enough free will to change your own life. So do it. He said that if you really knew what was important in life you would meditate day and night. So, do it! Reading Has Gurinder Singh revised Sant Mat to v. 3.0? is quite a simplification of Sant Mat. We were not told that we could not do the 2 ½ hrs. of meditation, we just experienced that we could only give up and surrender because we tried to do it. That was Charan’s way. The “revised Sant Mat” seems to me to be proof of the globalization Malachi Martin and Lefebvre speak about. Sad.
St. Theresa of Avila was instructed to do many, many hours of remembrance practice daily and she did it. So, after learning the pitfalls, do it! Truth does not accept what is false. Take the good and leave the bad. God Bless!

[june schlebusch]

Free thanks for your comment, thro yours I came across Aloes...Interior Castle and The Cloud of Unknowing are my contant companions..T think the satsangis that leave sant mat and embrace Jesus are in the minority and those that turn to Catholism even less...If I was told that I would end up one years ago I would have thought They Were Mad, but that is where I find my peace.,To partake of The Euchrist is my deepest blessing and to hear our black choir sing The Keri Elision in Latin sends me into extacy.

[observer]

Free, you say: "Had I known that Gurinder was going to say no to the four lifetimes, you get to start over as an amoeba and go up the ranks to human for an eon if you mess up instead, I probably would never have joined the “path”."

Is this for real? Can anyone else confirm that he actually said this? I've read in the Sant Mat books that even if a person does not make much progress in meditation, if they have no strong attachments when they die, they will spend time in the inner regions working off all karma before transcending.

Oh well, hopeless at meditating, back to amoeba next life... Or... switch to Brian's philosophy, there is only one life, when we're dead thats it. That takes the pressure off! lol

[Nietzsche]

Well an amoebe lifes very short so hat will not be a problem :)
But what a BS.

[Charter98]

I agree