Radha Soami Satsang Beas loses another believer

l like hearing deconversion stories. Deconversion, as I've noted, is as natural as conversion.

Here's a tale that came to me in an email message. Jesse was pleased to let me share it with others. Thanks, Jesse. I've added a few explanations of unfamiliar terms [in brackets].

Hi Brian,

Since your blog is the go-to place for anti-Radha Soami Satsang Beas stuff I thought I'd share this with you, you fuckadilly pigfuck. (I'm kidding. That's an insulting and hilarious line directed at you from a hater who left a comment on your I Hate Church of the Churchless site.)

Anyway, I'm not sure how to articulate this but I'll try.

Earlier today a friend and I went to the local Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) meeting in Minnesota. I'd decided to donate two boxes of RSSB books which I had already read. I never thought anything about donating the books since I'd been collecting free books and magazines for years.

Though I hadn't attended satsang [meeting of RSSB devotees] in a long time, I thought this practice was still kosher and encouraged since giving free shit to people -- ESPECIALLY free RSSB propaganda -- couldn't be wrong.

Or could it? Needless to say I was mistaken.   

With arms full of boxes of books I approached the local RSSB chapter secretary and asked where I could put the books. She as well as another local satsangi [RSSB initiate] simultaneously replied "Donating books has become a big problem. A really big problem."

I asked "Why? I've been getting free books for years." "Well, we have to ship them back to Fayetteville (or some other town?), and also since the books are already so cheap we can't just give them away."  

This sent me into severe aggravation for whatever reason. I said, "So the Guru needs more money?"

I think they are so used to everyone agreeing with them about everything that my taunting actually shocked them. Both the secretary and the other guy started rattling off more excuses as to why giving away free books was not halal [permissible] and they advised that I "give them to Half Price Books (local used book store) but.."   

This was my favorite part. "Don't accept any money for them because it sort of goes against the vows you've taken." Interesting.

RSSB vows as I remember: Meditation, clean moral life, no drugs or alcohol, no meat, do seva [volunteer work], give charity (which was code for giving to the Guru). Can someone explain how selling a book that is unclean for redistribution in a sacred RSSB hotel satsang is against the vows?   

I think you could imagine the faces and tones that were projecting from these people was all the more convincing of their complete brainwashing, but no words could describe it. As I was leaving I told them that I didn't believe in those vows. One of them sort of rolled his eyes in that "Let's not waste our energy on this non-believer" way that they do so well.

I left and decided that, unless I'm going with a friend or something, there will be no more satsangs and maybe I'll take Baba Ji's [the Guru's] advice that has been passed around recently and I'll burn the books. It could be the great cleansing ritual that I've needed for a long time.

I've been straddling the line for years and that pushed me over the edge. It's a strange feeling to admit that I was part of a weird cult and it's slightly scary to think of how I will fill the gaps that blind faith had been filling. Maybe the metaphor would read like I've grown out of my Guru will save me security blanket.  

Thanks for keeping the Church of the Churchless going for all these years. I've come back to it many times for inspiration and to open my eyes. I think you and some of your frequent contributers like Tara and more recently the articles by Waking Now have been a lifesaver.

That may be literal. Somehow I suspect that this fear and guilt I've felt for so long is rooted in Radha Soami Satsang Beas. We'll see how I do without it.

Take Care, Jesse

I'm confident you'll do just fine, Jesse. Absolutely fine.

Truth, meaning, well-being, happiness -- these don't reside within the confines of any organized religion, spiritual faith, or mystic practice. The dogmatic boundaries people put around reality aren't real. 

Comments

[NC]

Jesse, you really are going to be just fine. When I woke up, I also thought 'whoa, i can't believe I was really in a cult' It was just so wierd, infact, I still sit and think about how I was blind for so many years....
The best part of waking up is realizing your life actually stays the same without having to waste so much fear and guilt for not meditating 2.5 hrs everyday, eggs,etc, etc..

[Mike Williams]

It is the documented lies in the Beas
books that are shocking. Shameless lies.

Do you go to Al Capone for love ?

[Jesse]

I feel honored that Mike Williams responded to a post about me. I've been reading the comments posted by Mike and Tara in an attempt to wrap my mind around what has been haunting my life for years. Your words have broken down the walls of at least one of my mind's prisons. Thanks a lot.

[K.G]

RSSB may be a false but it does not mean all mystical traditions are false. Pythogoras, Plato, Socrates, Thales etc. were all mystics of the highest order.

[Jesse]

K.G,
When we find a way to travel time and we can go back to talk with those guys we'll have a better clue as to how high their orders were. Or how tall they were.

I see issue with the word mystic itself.

Jesse

[Jeet Singh Parmar]

There is a deference between spiritualism and materialism. The road of spiritualism is a very hard and goal can be achieve after long struggle. The seeker of truth can achieve his goal only through the meditation. Only the person can get result through the meditation. if we fail to do our meditation then nothing will get no realization will be received. Before comments we will remember the words of mystics that where we stand.

[Moongoes]

Why i can never chew when someone is saying we must do that we must achieve that,we must live like that and so on we we we, go and meditate if you want and let others do what they want.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTWSSCYUD4E

[Brian Hines]

Jeet, there are many kinds of meditation. Many techniques, many goals.

For example, Buddhist meditation aimed at insight into the nature of reality, emptiness, is very different from meditation aimed at achieving some sort of "mystical" experience.

There is meditation aimed at concentrating the mind, and there is meditation which expands into choiceless awareness.

And then there are spiritual paths which don't emphasize meditation at all. Most of Christianity, for example. So it doesn't seem true that meditation is essential for spirituality. And even if it is, there are so many kinds of meditation, almost anything can be called "meditation."

(Walking mindfully is meditation; Tai Chi is called meditation in motion.)

[Aiendes]

Quite a delicate matter to explain..after so many years of being loyal to a spiritual Master.
I perfectly share the feelings of Miss. Jesse, alas!..., as I remember being greatly displeased with 'sewadars'when being guest at Dera itself!. Let me point out these sewadas are o occidental origine, not indians.
I see something 'very dfferent' when looking at this Master, and, immediately after..., looking at all the peole engaged in his service.
More personal experiences prove me that something very wrong is going to travest the once scented aroma of Swami Ji days....

Of course the most uneasy momnent is that one of being confronted with the somehow selfish attitude of those supposedly sharing with yu a spiritual adventure. Very uneasy.
I am afraid that the same sentiment pervades all spiritual movements, religious or not. Taken one by one humans are diamonds., taken as a group they became burning coals!

Thanks to consider, Aiendes+*+

[KL Angora]

Most Holy God bless u, I share a vision of my wife (a diplomat) who was lifted up in heaven on 2nd Jan 2014 stood in front of throne and God spoke to her in loud and furious voice that go on Earth back and tell the people that something Unique will happen on Earth in May 2014 which never happened before. Save the people who wana be saved and leave the rest. She did not share this vision except me to anyone because already many people told this kind of vision but God had mercy and gave more time to the world to be prepared for heaven but this time He was not looking in the mood to give more time and Grace. So I wana share it with no discrimination of caste or religion, white or black, rich or poor, innocent or sinner, king or beggar. It is the Will of Lord Jesus Christ to tell the message of deliverance to everyone not any particular group of people. To the workers of Lord Jesus Christ, I request do it with the speed of racehorse not at the pace of snail or tortoise. Spend much money on big conventions, seminars not only on Sunday but 24x7 encourage each other and try to be philanthropists. Don’t hate anyone but give the message of God to everyone. Any one who read this message, don’t care the people what they do around u but seek the Will of God in ur lives He will tell u what to do. KL Angora

[just_bob]

If we're flagrantly disregarding the rules then he could've sold the books at a huge markup and pocketed the difference. The funds can then be spent on delicious meat and intoxicating substances.

[Unknowing]

Having only recently recognised that my long-held "doubts" about RSSB actually amount to non-belief in the teachings and (more importantly) the guru, and then begun to talk to my RSSB associates about this, I am frustrated by their response, though to be honest I could hardly have expected anything better. It's not just that they regard me as a lost sheep, or - more annoyingly - someone who didn't try hard enough and was disappointed at a "lack of inner spiritual experiences" that I egotistically felt I deserved. It's that they literally don't accept that I CAN "leave the path". They tell me I "already accepted the gift and can't give it back" and that I took vows that I can't now revoke. As if I've signed a contract with no termination clause. In my view, a contract based on false representation isn't valid anyway. And I've never understood all this talk of "vows": I do not remember the "initiation" as including any giving of promises, simply as an explanation of method. Those technicalities aside, I just wish that my change in worldview could be given the minimal respect of at least accepting it as fact... You may ask me why I'm still talking to these people at all: well, they are my family and I love them.

[tucson]

Unknowing: "lack of inner spiritual experiences" that I egotistically felt I deserved"

--That's not what I call egotistic. Everybody wants inner experiences and to see God. Anyway, is ego that drives you to meditate, not love as they would have you think. One does not get initiated because they don't want these things. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't and the guru gets off scott free. It's always the disciples' fault. The guru has you jumping through all these hoops like a circus monkey and he doesn't have to produce a thing. Yet, he is adored and worshipped despite this. He is adored and worshipped for what he is supposed to be and do and not for what he actually is and does. The guru business is an established institution in India.

[One Initiated]

dear tucson, it's exactly the reverse.
The Master adores the Slave.
It's not easy to become a Slave. Slave obeys.
Also, Slave is different than Servant.
Ego is the biggest hurdle in becoming a Slave.

~
OI

[Unknowing]

Tucson, I agree that there are a lot of contradictions about selfless versus selfish action in Sant Mat. For instance, seva: as far as I can see people do this mostly because doing it makes them feel good in various ways; it's not a chore they endure out of love, in the way that, say, vacuuming the house or taking out the trash is. (Genuine seva/service done principally out of love is far more likely to occur in the home.) But my point about the inner experiences or lack of was that far from being disappointed, I was quite reconciled to the idea of not having them: the explanation offered is that we don't necessarily know how much progress we've made, and that if we put in the effort that's asked of us then we will be rewarded in some way at some point, at the least by elimination of part of our karmic load. It's just that it annoys me that people disappointed at my "fall" from the path assume that I HAD expected such experiences and am just in a pique that I didn't get them. Whereas my change of view is actually nothing to do with anything like that; it's largely a matter of rationality finally winning out and my admitting that all the evidence suggests that the guru is not whom he is said to be and that the teachings just don't make sense. That would have been the case even in the face of a whole garden of inner experiences, because my view now is that when people do see and feel such things it's pure mental projection.

[Unknowing]

One Initiated: I really don't understand what reasoning process you follow to lead you to post on this blog. Having been part of RSSB for a long time myself, I know that proselytising is not advocated: in fact, it contradicts the core idea of our destiny being preordained and everything being in the hands of the Master. Only the Master is supposed to possess the power of salvation; one disciple cannot "save" another's soul. So why are you trying to convince others of the truth of your own beliefs? I suspect it's only yourself you are trying to convince. It seems to me that this blog is (among other things) a forum/discussion group for those interested in considering in the most open-minded ways possible the "big questions" of life - and it is also to some degree a support group for those who have left RSSB and are reaching out to others who share this experience. Neither of those two categories apply to those such as you, who are (supposedly) more than content within the belief system of RSSB. It seems to me that all you can achieve here is to obstruct the discussion a little by continually missing the point, and by your closed-minded assertions serve to remind those recently "de-converted" of why they left RSSB. Perhaps in some cases you may cause distress by invoking an echo of the fear of punishment for non-compliance with the demands RSSB makes on its followers (not with the result of changing ex-satsangis' minds, though). If you are happy with your beliefs as you claim they now stand, then I am happy for you and do not wish to disturb your peace of mind. I do not intend to assail my satsangi friends with suggestions that they exchange their views for mine. Surely you can accord the same respect to others?

[777]

So , . . that makes 6 "ex"-RSSB souls here
I thought is was 5

Why you lie Jesse, there is no charity vow

777

[tucson]

Unknowing wrote: "..all the evidence suggests that the guru is not whom he is said to be and that the teachings just don't make sense"

--That is the conclusion I came to a long time ago, like mid-90's, so I am not here for support as a recently converted devotee. Still, I comment on the subject just because I am familiar with it.

I think the burden of proof lies in the guru's hands. I have never seen any evidence that "the master adores the slave" as One Initiated said. But I have seen plenty of evidence that the slave adores the master because of what the slave believes the master can do for him/her. They won't admit it, but it's the truth. If the slave didn't believe the master could do anything for him does anyone think the slave is going to stick around for very long?

This is common sense, but religious faith has nothing to do with that.

[One Initiated]

hello Unknowing,

You got me wrong.

I have no intentions to hurt yours or anyone's sentiments by any means.
If I did so, I heartily apologise to you for the same.

I've friends who do not believe in RSSB at all,
some who are in great love of the Master of RSSB,
some who are in great love of the Master somewhere else,
some who are non-believers of the Path and just believes that this life is be-end and end-all,
and I share same level of cordial relation with everyone,
and I never try to change anyone's perspective with my words.

But, if someone asks or starts discussing around a topic,
to which I feel I belong to,
I also contribute into the discussion.
And very true that sometimes my opinion matches with the other, sometimes it doesn't.

I never said/compelled to you or tucson or to anyone else,
to exactly hold the same opinion as that of mine.

What I write, it's not entirely just my belief, it's something more... and it's because of Babaji.

Yes, I am very much happy for myself.
But, I am also happy for you too with whatever belief/non-belief you have.

It's just the beauty of writing.
e.g. just re-read what tucson or Brian writes.
They write with such an authority that whatever they believe,
is the Universal reality.
This is what happens actually, whatever one person believes, when he/she writes,
it reflects in the writing that for that person this is the universal reality,
but definitely everyone is mainly talking about their own universe at that point.
Just like in above comment, tucson writes: "They won't admit it, but it's the truth"
Which appears that tucson knows the complete truth that those who are not admitting are false,
this statement is actually false, but it's written with such an expression that it's true for tucson and his universe,
but might not for anyone else.
In addition to that there are some like '777',
who really have had profound spiritual experience and are constantly in that eternal bliss.

Lots of Love to you dear brother/sister.

Please always keep your heart filled with Love.

Be with RSSB or not, wish you a lots of happiness,
lots of love in your heart for everyone and great peace of mind.

regards,
One Initiated

[tucson]

One Initiated wrote: "Just like in above comment, tucson writes: "They won't admit it, but it's the truth"
Which appears that tucson knows the complete truth that those who are not admitting are false,"

--Must I preface my remarks with a disclaimer: "in my experience" "it is my opinion" "in most cases" "it appears to be this way to me" or something to that effect?

But yes, I think I'm right.

What has the master done for you lately? He has never done anything tangible in a spiritual way for me since I first became aware of him in 1968. I'm still waiting but I'm not holding my breath... a tired idiom in the English language I hope to abandon soon with his grace.

[777]

I say sorry too
Please see here where NOT the astral , , ,
but the ethical 'matter' is located :

http://phys.org/news/2015-03-dark-side-cosmology.html#ajTabs

I was not planning all I wrote, only what was and is FACT like my vivaldi text at the start

Also that serendipities can be very continues for a Lover

I would not use the expression "slave' - lover is more as is in RSSB
Slave is often used f i when you really SEE the Sun knowing/feeling/seeing
your ego is a muddy and stinking snow flock

But you will also see that deeper inside , you also really and hyper literally are that Sun

The RSSB Path gives, eternal ever growing feel of invulnerability , , , eternal Liberation plus endless Love

A real Satguru , He understands that, when granted the same boon towards His Own Master which is not a sure thing at the start

You people, "ex"-satsangis would cry your heart out if you knew about what the man had , has on His Shoulders

At the start there is obedience, increasing submission to be the best expression ( living screen producing darshan ) of The Godhead in this 5% matter

THAT is what this tasks is in Kali Yuga
Beware for the golden yuga when yes souls on their own ca unify with brahma,
then wait for brahmas ( c.q. jahweh 's ) access to the 2/7second region

The Saint is the opening , much farther than the above 95% matter, , , ,showing The Face of God to His Lovers

Like in meditation but without an effort

777

[tucson]

777,

I guess I and other skeptics will have to wait for the next Golden yuga to unite with Brahma. I am just too dense and coarse to access the subtle vibrations of dark matter consciously and bathe in the light of the internal sun. If it is to happen it will happen. In some dimension maybe it already has. Past, present and future at that level may be all at once.

May I ask which RS guru initiated you?

[777]

Tuscon,
Yours :
MaharaJi Charan Singh Ji Grewal of Beas

So You, Dear Tuscon , you cannot escape from eternal liberation
when I understood rightly
that we have the same Master

The journey of disciples may be somewhat different, , , that's all,
Better not to longue , better without tears, better as a VG
you still can

You will not fall back in one of your lives to the defined universal non duality system practiced by all religions and non-religions
of absorption in the mayor , next with the mayor in the count, then the prince next the king next the deity of the corresponding region
called the royal road of kal via sushumna , the middle road

Charan will keep his word don't make it to harsh
Love to you Love to all
We will go where our heart is

777

PS
correction >>
Please see here where NOT the astral , , ,
but the etherical 'matter' where the chakra matrix is
is located :

[tucson]

777,

Yes, you understood correctly that I was initiated by Charan Singh Grewal, in person in 1970. I stayed with it for a couple of decades and then I gradually stopped participating beginning around the time he passed away.

[Nvneet]

Hi ol ,I got married in Radha swami family in 2003 nd
Soo mny family members r serving inside Dera .i saw
Very cruel nd rough behaviour of these people.
One f my uncle is involving their in purchase f
Lands for Dera.He is dealing with real estate of Dera
As I saw him
He is now quiet rich person working with Builders
Nd even making his personal property.
He sold land to us taken full money nd even after
Five years he has not signed deal (registry)
When I went to Dera Secretary he said OH DEAR
I M GOING TO GIVE UR COMPLAINT LETTER TO
THAT CULPRITT !!
I seriously damn lost my faith in DERA. These
People r Tkng name from GURU nd spiking his
Name . If someone wants to know more
I saw thr email me [email protected]

[Nvneet]

Anyone is here who only convey message to baba g
That my husband son f late Sardar Buta Singh
Who served as nambardar in Radha Swami
Dera is loosing ol his faith over Dera admn
And his baba g ,wants to meet Baba g
If Baba g is Hvng time pl meet him once .
And pl through out Head f Land and Pirchase
Dept from Dera as he is using name f Dera
For his own deeds . Anyone call Dera admn
Nd ask them
Why they r not listening complaints against him.
He and his son are disgusting people . Ask Dera
Admn why they r not taking responsibility of
These people.they are exploiting people outside
Nd living Inside Dera very safely BCs no outer
Authority likes to deal in matters f Dera people .these r
VIPS naa.

[AV]

Atheist Quotes
A Muslim fanatic and a Christian fanatic, a Jewish fanatic, a secular fanatic, an atheist fanatic, a communist fanatic - all of them are the same. The thinking that, 'If you don't think like me, that if you are not with me, then you are against me;'

[Tiya]

Its sad how we take a normal human behavior and black list the entire group - RSSB in this case. I ask, have we seen people outside the group and how they behave? Similar ? Good... they will as all are humans. Who says that RSSB follower and sewadar become any better humans after being initiated....they too are trying like many others. they too have the wraps of sins on them which they are struggling to come out of. Why do we expect them to be god like, when they every minute of their lives are trying to be better human... leave alone being god like.

its a bit to harsh to expect a very different behavior from humans just because they are sewadar of RSSB.

Also - unknowing came and thrashed one initiated saying - dont speak as this place is for non believers etc... if so, i should not be here. Let me know I shall walk out too :)

I am not a RSSB follower. But a believer of Sant Mat !

[Kirk]

Kirk of the Kirkless

[Neville]

The Path of the Masters is God Realisation in human form by connecting with Shabd or Nam or Word or Kalma inside once initiated by a perfect living Master. This was taught by Zarathustra 3000 + years ago, then by Christ, Sufi saints like Bulleh Shah, Samrud, Sultan Bahu...Sikh Gurus, Other masters like Ravidas, Dariya Saheb, Sang Kabir, Tukaram, Namdev...If an initiate of the current RSSB faith Gurudev is not able to go within He must then bitch. But follow Babaji and his teachings, go within and then see the Magic of the Lord. Radhaaaa Soami. May we all be blessed with the Truth. May we rise with His grace and mercy to the state of Supreme Consciousness.

[Mrigank]

You guys dont get it. RSSB is about nothing but one goal that is to meet with the one (god) rest all is bs. And to achieve that goal they give 'naam' or 'word' (in english) or 'kalam' in urdu. And to achieve that goal one has to meditate. This processes has been going on for ages and it's the only way to achieve salvation.
They do not force anyone to join the community. It's entirely up to you whether you wanna join or not. If you dont like it then it's ok.. no one is forcing you. Even Baba Ji (the guru) says this thing. He also says that if we buy anything we first check the quality of the product whether it's genuine or not and when choosing a spiritual leader we just follow what or parents are following.. we should'nt do that. We should also check the genuinety of the guru before following his teachings.
And as far as the books are concerned the prices are very low because RSSB is not in it to do business. They just charge the basic cost for the manufacturing of the product. You will never see the adds of RSSB on tv or in newspapers.
If you don't like there teachings then don't follow what will you get by abusing on the internet?
Unlike other cultures disciples are not forced to follow the teachings like don't eat non-veg and say no to alcohol. It's upto you.. unlike in islam they do not force you to do anything. They just ask you to follow these things for your own good. because if you don't it will increase your bad karma
And for the people who do not believe in karma it's just like newton's third law 'every action has equal and apposite reaction' if you harm someone you'll have to pay for it sooner or later.

And if you guys hate RSSB soo much then it's ok.. if you can find a spiritual leader who can tell you how to find the one and achieve salvation and he himself has seen god then go to him.. Because this is what RSSB is all about. If you don't like the behaviour of sevadars or you have any problem then tell them. They are also humans.. the also make mistakes.

[Br]

If you don't have anything to be thankful for , Bjust check your pulse you are alive for a purpose.

[Baba]

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