Uncertainty: the key to dealing with death and non-existence

Last night I had another of my Holy shit! I'm going to die and not exist forever! moments. I wrote about these disturbing experiences six years ago in "Death and the primal fear of non-existence." 

I’ve come face to face with not-existing. It’s scary. Really scary. I’ve never experienced anything scarier. I can call it “fear,” but it’s more than that. Worse than that. Regular fear arises when something bad is happening or could happen.

But primal fear is looking into the maw of nothing happening to you, because there will be no you around for anything to happen to. Do you get the difference? I hope so. I don’t know if I can describe it any more clearly.

This experience has come to me about a dozen times. Mostly while I’m going to sleep. Occasionally in meditation. It isn’t something that I can bring about on my own. It isn’t a thought; it isn’t an emotion; it isn’t a perception. It’s as if a curtain covering non-existence opens for a moment, giving me a peek into a nothingness that is absolute.

Because I’m not there. I mean, I’m obviously there at the moment, looking into the depths of not-existing for eternity. Yet what I feel all the way down to the marrow of my being is what it means to live for a time and then to not live for all the rest of time.

This time it was a turtle's fault.

The 11 o'clock local news had a segment about a large sea turtle that washed ashore, looking decidedly dead. But it wasn't. If I recall correctly, a CT scan was used to look through the turtle's shell and figure out what was wrong with it.

Unbidden and uncontrollably, one of those Holy shit! realizations washed over me as the news team went on to another story.

I'm going to die eventually. Just like the turtle is. No more living. No more anything. This life is it. All there will ever be. No matter how much I love life, no matter how much I want to keep on living, death is going to throw me into non-existence. Forever. Me gone. All gone. For eternity.

Not exactly cheery bedtime thoughts. As I was brushing my teeth, the unfairness of it all seemed so obvious.

Here I am, alive. I'm a human being who can envision his own death. I enjoy life, but it's slipping away by the day, the hour, the minute, the second. I'm 63 fucking years old! My lifelong experiencing of one-thing-after-the-other is going to come to an abrupt halt with a final thing: the instant of my death. After that... nothing. Not even the awareness of nothing. 

After waking up this morning, I felt pretty much normal again. Aware of death, of course, yet immersed in the living of life. Thankfully. But the primal fear I'd experienced last night was still lingering closer to the surface of my consciousness than it usually is. 

Throughout the day I kept thinking...

About how religious people are able to easily envision an afterlife that isn't a viable post-death reassurance for me anymore. About how illogical my fear of non-existence is, since there's as little reason to worry about not existing as there is of falling into deep sleep: if I'm unconscious, there's no fear, no worry, no anything. 

It dawned on me that (1) not being afraid of dying because of a certainty about life after death has a lot in common with (2) being afraid of dying because of a certainty about non-existence after death. The commmonality is... certainty.

Of course, the odds are with (2), non-existence. Billions upon billions of humans have died with no sign of their continued existence. Evidence of life after death is extremely meager, almost, well, non-existent.

Still, anything is possible. Since no one knows what lies on the other side of death, there's room for uncertainty. (See my "Scientific quasi-remedies for a fear of death.")

Believers in life after death don't know that for sure. Believers in non-existence after death don't know that for sure. Nobody knows! Nobody. Not with certainty. And therein lies a viable way of dealing with death: acknowledge that it's an unknown, and focus on the known. Living, here and now.

This morning I was drawn to read a few chapters in Pema Chodron's "The Places That Scare You: A Guide to Fearlessness in Difficult Times." Often I'm turned off by Zen books that are overly Buddhist'y, edging into dogmatic religiosity. But I liked what Chodon said about The In-Between State.

It takes some training to equate complete letting-go with comfort. But in fact "nothing to hold on to" is the root of happiness. There's a sense of freedom when we accept that we're not in control. Pointing ourselves toward what we would most like to avoid makes our barriers and shields permeable.

This may lead to a don't-know-what-to-do kind of feeling, a sense of being caught in-between. On the one hand, we're completely fed up with seeking comfort from what we can eat, drink, smoke, or couple with. We're also fed up with beliefs, ideas, and "isms" of all kinds. But on the other hand we wish it were true that outer comfort could bring lasting happiness.

...When we find ourselves in a place of discomfort and fear, when we're in a dispute, when the doctor says we need tests to see what's wrong, we'll find that we want to blame, to take sides, to stand our ground. We feel we must have some resolution. We want to hold our familiar view.

...That's why we're encouraged to spend our whole lives training with uncertainty, ambiguity, insecurity. To stay in the middle prepares us to meet the unknown without fear; it prepares us to face both our life and our death.

...We gradually discover that we are big enough to hold something that is neither lie nor truth, neither pure nor impure, neither bad nor good. But first we have to appreciate the richness of the groundless state and hang in there.

...Resting here completely -- steadfastly experiencing the clarity of the present moment -- is called enlightenment.

Comments

[cc]

Unless you're prepared to die, you can't help but fear death, so consult your things-to-do-before-I-die list and get busy.

[tucson]

It seems to me that what we really are is eternal. How can our existence be explained otherwise? If we will not exist forever after death, then we did not exist forever before we were born. If that were the case it would be impossible for the moment of our birth to ever arrive. Infinity works both ways. So, we just are but maybe not as we think.

The only possible death is the death of the ego and this psycho-somatic apparatus via which the ego sense manifests. But, as what we really are, unmanifest source, neither birth nor death are possible.

What's it like to return to unmanifest source(to die)? You can't return to what you are (die). It is just like this now if you don't think about it.

[Elizabeth W]

It is horror, horror, horror all the way. Not terror. Be there rebirth, heaven or hell or simply nothing, there is no consolation.

[Sita]

Dear Brian,
Maybe Vipassana or Mindfulness will help you,alone, or in some group.
Maybe doing meditation on it,make it deeper, then you can come to the dept of your fear.
Sometimes after some period of time it becomes softer or will disapear..

[Willie R]

The key to peace of mind is the recognition of the perfect equivalence of existence AND non-existence. They go together and cannot be separated.

I am ready to give it all up at any given moment. If there is a problem, then it consists of the fact that there is nothing TO give up (capitalizations on purpose).

Being scared is natural. That will go away, too.

[G]

"Last night I had another of my Holy shit! I'm going to die and not exist forever! moments."

I just had one of those moments, started to Google about nonexistence and stumbled upon this article.

This feeling certainly fluctuates depending on the day. Some days I don't care about death and seem completely at peace with the notion of nonexistence and then there are other days like this. lol

[Janya Barrish]

I landed on the NDERF page today, and it offered some solace.

Accomplice to murder

Lovely early Fall day.
Autumn leaves , confetti on cars
Smileys toasting in the toaster-oven
Colombian coffee brewing

Pachi has grown fat
Neutered cats put on weight
Dog nail clipper awaits his sharpies
He's eager to walk and play

Let him enjoy his life
He's been cooped up
His harness 's too tight
Lumbering felines can't catch

Pachi walked in with a baby squirrel
Still warm but gone
My bad thinking or the Devil made me
No excuse - its glassed eyes now haunt

The people on this NDE site narrate their near death spiritual experiences.

http://www.nderf.org/

[ks wong]

I believe in death and non-existence. While i was 15 years old, i will cried whenver i think of death especially before i go to bed. I will become non-exitence and there is no "me" anymore. For me, permanent losing of memory is equal to death. I don't know how to get rid of this feeling. I wish there is life after death but i am not able to convince myself for that. I am currently 31 years old and what i can do is force myself not to think of it. The feeling is really suffer.

[Daniel]

I find the notion of non-existence a little comforting. Like coming home after a long day of work and falling asleep (Sleep is what I believe to be the closest thing we human beings have to nonexistence) living a fulfilling life and bringing it to a close with an infinite period of rest seems more than calming.

Another thing to consider is that fear of death and negative emotions regarding the end of life, like existence itself, are exclusive to living beings. It's probably like getting nervous before a doctor or dentist visit. It's frightening and uncomfortable to go through, but following the appointment all of the previous fears and anxieties are forgotten. Once you get past the period of fear regarding death and the thing you are dreading occurs, these fears will no longer exist.

It's a strange sentiment to explain, but I hope some of my examples will make you able to sympathize a bit with my views. Think of all the stresses in your life and the daily struggle to continue being successful evaporating. Imagine how much you love sleeping in - and what it would be like to remain in that state forever. it scares a lot of people, but I feel as if when my bell tolls I'll be ready to shuffle off to infinite sleep.I'll probably be exhausted from all of the great stuff here on earth.

[Thandinkosi Sibisi]

It seems perfectly logical (and symmetrical) that we cannot have an "afterlife" [continue to exist forever in another "form" as taught by many religions] unless we have always existed before or have a "before-life" [call it a potential to exist of some "form".]

My logical (if not natural) reaction to the "argument" that "just as much as the religious are not certain of an "afterlife" atheists are not certain of "non existence" after death is to say an "afterlife" without a "before life" is unsymmetrical and hence illogical.

To illustrate this argument , as a 61 year old I recall how my deceased parents spoke about the joy of some of their life in the past or the stress of living during the second world war.My reaction was always "interesting!" or "I am glad I was not around then" .

However I find it difficult to have the same reaction about future events . For example when there are predictions like "In 2050 teleportation will be a reality (a la Star trek's "beam me up Scotty") or "we will have used up all our natural resources such as water and there will be wars fought over natural resources", I find it difficult to have the reaction "Interesting" or ""I am glad I will not be around when that happens"( As a 61 year old I will almost certainly be dead in 2050 for example while my 3 children who range in age from 24 to 30 will probably still be alive)

It is like we are prepared to accept that we did not exist in the past but we are not prepared to accept that we shall not exist in the future. Why is our previous non existence accepted so freely yet our future non existence is seen as somehow threatening? Is this a "natural human reaction" as some psychologists seem to argue or does it result from "religious indoctrination"?

Some people argue that "We do not really fear death , what we really fear is dying".I think this is a "half truth".True no one wants a "slow and painful death". However , I think even if we were to be assured that our passing would be "instant and painless" we would still be afraid of death.

As a "practising Catholic" I am "religious" in a manner of speaking, but I think our "belief" in a continued existence after death as well as the uncertainty of "atheists" about non existence after death are both more "psychological" than "logical". Logic points in one direction (death IS non existence) but that logic is hard to accept.

[Tom]

Brian, you express it eloquently. That fear is unlike anything else - the very definition of real and clear and final. Like cc, I put it down to believing there's still something vitally important to do. Or perhaps, more subtly, there's an insistent demand to push at life - OR ELSE! So when the means to push comes to an end, there's nothing to keep 'or else' at bay.

I don't know if others are like me, but in my case that 'or else' was compulsive and pretty terrifying. After decades of enslavement I finally managed to call its bluff. I deliberately ignored the demand to micro-manage my life, resigning myself to failure and damnation. Neither of which seem to have happened, fortunately ;-)

[Alpha]

I know that feeling. It started happening to me not so long ago. It struck me all at once one day, the realization of what it would "be" like to cease entirely, when everything that makes up my conscious "world" just stops being abruptly and thoroughky.

That realization comes by now and then, usually when I have time to reflect on myself.

It's not fearsome. It is something different, breathtaking and much more disturbing.

[Alpha]

In reaction to some comments yeah : in the end I think sheer horror describes it

[cc]

It struck me all at once one day, the realization of what it would "be" like to cease entirely, when everything that makes up my conscious "world" just stops being abruptly and thoroughky.

What strikes is the realization that death is not "like" anything because it's the end of everything. You can contemplate your extinction, but your extinction is the end of contemplation.

[BERNARD DOWNES]

it is a comfort to read of others similar fear of non existence
I first experienced this as a child and it has haunted me all my life
No one has mentioned it but in the past I allowed my anxiety re non existence to get out of control to the ppoint where ive smashed doors and windows in terror at the tought of being alive and one day not being
I try to cope by asking my wife to cuddle me nowadays but the underlying fear is always near the surface
I avoid things now like lying in a bath as it reminds me of coffins! its as if to live fully you have to accept your finity
I wish someone could say if they've ever lost control like me
I am totally miserable as it preoccupies me daily
Thanks

[777]

If you are compassionated (VG)
you can hear your Eternal Soul
above your eyes

At first so tiny but always sweet
You don't need initiations : just compassion c q Love

But to be sure that it is your Soul and then dive in it , ask some help

777

[tucson]

777 or whoever would bother to listen,

I am mostly a compassionate, nice guy (the operative word being "mostly") but I never hear my eternal soul above my eyes even on my most compassionate, loving days, so I guess I need your help. Sometimes I perceive something like an eternal soul within all things. Still, I just can't find the damn thing as any kind of object with shape, dimension, location. So, I am not sure I have one of those or not. There does seem to be an attribute I would ascribe to it that could be called "love" but that word is not quite right. Maybe "bright, unconditional, impersonal positive regard and sustenance" would point in the right direction.

[777]

HI Tucson

With compassionate I mean a 100 % meatless life.

Meat activates God's firewall at the Gate , the Door to Heaven the Third Eye Chakra,
it cannot function properly by the uric acid in the blood, coming from fear ( the adrenalin which is not inhibited at the moment of the animal s death - and some eat that )

Symbolic it one of the two seraphim angles closing paradise.
In other words killers can't ascend.

There are other mechanisms but this is a physical one

But any human being 6 month without that acid overflowing
has a better chance to have ALL his chakras in form
( also less illnesses )
You don't need the power of the rssb's 5 words - those words / energies are also for protection amongst much more, much more indeed !!!
The realm in the crooked tunnel can be amazon jungle-hysteric-wild like
The words equal the power of the responsible deity and it cannot even see/observe you
Just listen some minutes at the right side and you will 'hear'
It is/was always present but you weren't interested .

Bernard said : I wish someone could say if they've ever lost control like me

Yes
Some month before I had ever heard about the Real Master,
I( I wrote this already here I think )
I got a little book fro Yogi RamaCharaka :: The Yogi Teachings of Breath

So I did the special exercise of which he said you can do it only 3 times because it's to strong and can awaken Kundalini

What happened then was horrible after 30 times which I did
and I explained that already

Anyway , it made me very convinced of the need of guidance

Hope you don't have that kind of stuff Bernard ? hell was a tea party, compared with that experience in 1964
>3 to You

777

[tucson]

777,

You wrote, "With compassionate I mean a 100% meatless life."

--Well then, I am not compassionate anymore.

However, I was vegetarian for 27 years. No meat, no fish, no birds, no animals of any kind, no eggs either and I was strict about it. I did eat some milk products from time to time. That must have been the problem. In order for the animal to produce milk it must have offspring and the offspring are often killed for meat. You know, for veal, dog food and the like. So, I was responsible indirectly for the deaths of countless animals including all the animals killed by farm machinery, habitat destruction and pesticides so I could eat veg food.

My RS spiritual practice yielded no transformative results after 27 years. I was the same schmuck I was before. At some point you feel like, "Hey, I should be in Mansorovar or some place like that by now floating around on dweeps with hansas. What's up with this path? Maybe it isn't a 'science of the soul' after all." So, I phased out of it.

I know, you are supposed to keep beating your head against the wall and eventually a hole will open up with light streaming in, but I am impatient. I have this one life to live and I didn't want to spend another 27 years beating my head against a wall just on some guru's say so. Especially since I had no way of knowing if he actually knew what he was talking about or if he was a phony or not.

[tucson]

777,
I was very strict veg for 27 years. Meditated the RS way all that time. Nothing changed. I was the same at the end as when I started. Very little light and sound. Certainly none that was transformative, enlightening or helpful in any way. I began to have doubts about this path and drifted away. For me, there was no evidence Charan and Gurinder were who they claimed to be. Life was too short to invest another 27 years in this. For health reasons I began eating meat again and felt better. My blood test parameters improved. A burden was lifted off my back. No longer was I confined by the vows of this path. I was free and just a regular person again...just a slob on the bus, I am fond of saying as these were lyrics in the song "What if God was One of Us?" by Joan Osborne that was popular at that time. This was the most "spiritual" thing that had happened to me in 27 years. That was a long time ago. It really doesn't matter any more. It was just a dream like the one I am in now.

[lola]

For me, there was no evidence Charan and Gurinder were who they claimed to be

They never claimed

[tucson]

lola,

You're right. I meant to say "who they were supposed to be" but once a comment is up you can't fix it.

Nevertheless, they allow themselves to be presented and revered as "perfect masters", "God in human form" and all that. It is implied that is who they are. Otherwise why would people follow them? Why would people call them "Maharaj" "Babaji" "Master" "Huzur". They sure don't think they are just a couple of slobs on the bus. And Charan and Gurinder go along with it.

[lola]

Tucson it is time for you to sit again. No matter if you eat meat or dont like Maharajies duet or this or that cause you will never be in the same dogma again..never. You are a great man and honest and it would never do any harm to you if you sit for 20 min without expectations rather oposite it would melt anf bring even more of your prescious heart out..you will shine even more .love

[tucson]

lola,

Thanks. It's about time someone around here recognized that I am a great man. What's the matter with all you people?

Anyway, I will take your suggestion into consideration. I do a type of meditation but it is not simran/bhajan. It is my own thing although I imagine many do something similar. I just sit and sort of "empty out" for a while..10 minutes, 20, 30. Sometimes I do a meditative breathing exercise. My wife calls it snoring.

[777]

Tucson
Ithas almost no effect to practise when practicing hate

Also great men are subject to the law of the universes that you get what you want but have to give back what you steal, an apple, a car a wife , a smile, a planet or a life.

This planet is a place where due to cruel evolution , compassion has the greatest chance yo develop in someone

It's the goal , the end of evolution , the start of ascend

Anti compassion by torturing descends
and you know it
Laughing about it gives you 3 seconds of boasting proud sensation
like any kapo knows

This has nothing to do with being initiated or not, it is the minimum of ethics
It's at the root of all wars and sadism

But this sad but instruct if planet represents a trillionth to the power of trillion
of all which exist
Vegas will soon be over

777

-
-

[observer]

777, so true.

The very smart, intelligent intellectual types can become very superior and egotistical and with the bigger ego comes less compassion and kindness which unfortunately can evolve into coldness and cruelty.

There is definitely a kinder energetic frequency which can be felt when in the company of other vegetarians as compared to being around those who eat animals.

[tucson]

777,

I see you are not convinced that I am a great man. Somehow that does not trouble me. Probably because, being a great man, I have deep humility and magnanimity as well. Not to mention just generally being a really really cool guy.

It is not necessary to hate in order to kill an animal in order to eat it. It is a practical matter for survival. Many of us, especially those with the predominant type O blood type are genetically "hard-wired" to thrive on animal protein. Some of us do not even possess the enzymes necessary to convert plant sourced Omega 3 fatty acids to the bio-available ALA and GLA which the body needs.

Life feeds on life in this world. This is the savage underbelly of the unfathomabaly beautiful surface appearance of our world. A man soon finds out where he is on the food chain and what his body requires in a NATURAL environment when he is placed in that environment with only the most primitive tools such as a sharp stick or sharp obsidian or chert.

Our modern civilization and technological food production/transportation system allows for idealistic diets to be possible. We might keep in mind that there were no tofu trees during the Pleistocene when homo sapiens developed to its full development as a species. No amber waves of grain in those days of the type sung about in "America the Beautiful".

But there were herds of bison, antelope and aurochs aplenty which made our brains grow big and strong, maybe too strong for our own good.

[777]

-

OK
You prefer the past

777

-

[tucson]

To discover what sort of creature you are in the natural world it is necessary to leave modern technological civilization and return to your biological roots in primeval conditions. Go into the forest, jungle, desert or savannah with nothing. I would say naked, but a pair of organic, free trade cotton or other natural fiber undershorts may be worn to avoid arrest and frightening children. In lieu of that you may fashion a garment of leaves, animal skins, peeled bark, fiber, etc.

Try to make shelter, find water and make fire. Obtain food from the environment. You may find a variety of tubers, roots, fruit and vegetation to eat, but you may find that is not enough to maintain strength and normal energy levels over the long term as seasons change and availability of vegetation changes. It is at this point where you may find that fat and protein are what your body craves. This is the crucial point... can you continue to survive and thrive on the vegetation you obtain? Or, will you find yourself needing to capture a fish or animal to meet your nutritional needs.

To get some idea of this watch the TV series "Naked and Afraid". Also, there is a new one that has good potential called "Live Free or Die". The old standby was "Survivorman". Or better, see documentary shows about indigenous people living in the wild and what they do to survive. All of them eat some form of wild animal food ranging from fish to monkeys to grubs.

It is perfectly permissible during this trial to continue your meditation practice, prayer or whatever you do to connect to the divine although you may, under such circumstances, discover you are that.

[777]

My forefather was a crocodile

But I learned some, don't have to kill & I have different standards than yesterday

[june schlebusch]

777 I must disagree with you. Being vegetarian did not make me a more compassionate human being, although I am still basically vegetarian, proberly just habit..I was arrogant..I thought by not eating meat I was more refined, better than those carnivous..But that did nothing to change my heart I still remaind deceiptful, angry and resentful..The only thing that is softening my heart and making me a better person is....Going to Mass and The Eucarist. Peace to you brother.

[777]

Jone;

It is compassion that makes one q vegetarian
maybe pushes someone to sweetness

But I agree with you that the reverse can happen as
was in my case
I stopped , just because it was a requirement for receiving Nam
and later on realized that slowly my heart softened somewhat

btw it is the only vow I find easy

777

PS
I understand your".Going to Mass and The Eucarist. "

That is working on the heart/throat chakras ( Hence all the Jesus with pierced heart statues )

It is the crooked tunnel from the Bardo Thodol
and gives peace too

[june schlebusch]

777 thanks for your understanding, encourageing reply...I will meditate on it..Joan is my patron saint...June is what I am called.

[Unknowing]

Actually, I'm not scared by the idea of not existing, though I used to be. Instead, now, I'm scared by the idea that there MIGHT be something after death. It's not just that I don't want to be reborn or to go to hell; well, yeah. I also don't want heaven, and I don't want to swim in the eternal oneness of the divine sea of love. ESPECIALLY I don't want to be have these things while other people are excluded from them. All I ask for is oblivion. I just wish I could be SURE of it.

[x]

I'm scared by the idea that there MIGHT be something after death.

Yes, a terrifying prospect, my friend, but fear not. By acknowledging the holiness of our master, and by practicing the meditation and prayer techniques he has transmitted to us, you can avoid Hell and go directly to Heaven.

Sign on the dotted line, include your credit card number, and your fear will promptly cease and desist.

[june schlebusch]

x you are so unkind...Unknowing pay no heed, he has not even met any of the gurus, so what does he know...But I.m afraid there is no such thing as oblivion..I also wish there was but my experience has been that life is eternal and I,m beginning to think that death is not the end but the beginning..Explore other channels, maybe even read the book mentioned in the first post you wrote.."The Cloud of Unknowing" It helped me.

[Josh V.]

Thank you for writing this. I had one of those moments today, and I've just been so overwhelmed by it. None of my friends understand this terrible fear I have about not existing, forever, nothing. not like sleeping. Like nothing. It won't feel like anything because we won't exist to feel anything.

I was so overwhelmed with this feeling today that I started googling it and found this blog. I feel less alone now. Thank you so much for writing this. And all the commenters too, thanks.

[Andy]

I'm 42. For most of my adult life after experiences with psilocybin, and more recently DMT, studying Laozi, I considered myself a spiritual man. My 2 and a half year old son was killed in a tragic accident 2 months ago. He died instantly. After the numbing shock of losing him subsided and the grief has REALLY kicked in, I have had two profound occasions recently where I understood in a single moment the absolute oblivion that death is, and that when I'm dead, I am out of existence. But I wasn't afraid, I just realized in those moments that I've got to LIVE because I'm still alive. It made me think of Nietzsche's abyss so I just turned away to face life; and just to add of all the philosophers I've looked at through life, Epicurus- at the point I am in life now- I believe was certainly the wisest.

[777]

Hi Andy

Profound feelings with such loss if I could

Do You really believe Your Sweet boy doesn't exist ?

You mean that ?

Never an indication , a feel of presence about him
I guess you read a a lot about Near Death Experiences now

Can His Mother cope ?
So Sorry

777

[Brian Hines]

Andy, your loss must be devastating. Being the person responsible for this blog, I apologize for the comment above from a religious believer. It is really insensitive what 777 said. You're suffering enough without having to put up with supernatural nonsense.

Yes, death is the end. That is virtually 100% certain. Your realization that death means oblivion was correct. Congratulations for having the courage to face reality head-on. I like your conclusion that the only thing to do is LIVE.

Along that line, yesterday I came across a New York Times opinion piece about "aliveness." It isn't earthshaking, but you might find some inspiration in it, so I'll share a link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/opinion/aliveness-waking-up-holidays.html?_r=0

[Jim Sutherland]

Andy, .......we all hate death, especially when death steals a loved one right before our eyes. We never forget our very last look at the body of some one we loved, knowng ( thinking ) we will never again, see them in that exact form.

I remember takng that last look at my Father, laying in his casket, just before the cover was closed for the last time, before his dead body would be transported to the hole in the cemetary awaiting his arrival. This was April 1991, and the memory still exsts like it was yesterday.

But none of us know, for sure, exactly the Spiritual “Mechancs”of how our Cosmic Creator preserves the souls of those who lived, died, and returned to the Spirit world, where Athests do not beleve exits.

On my Blog, I share a couple of pages from “The Spirits Book” that might offer you a little relief from your grief, if even Atheists deny the Hope of survival of the souls of our loved ones.

By the way, I saw my Farher again, in meditation, very clearly, years after he died, , and he was talking to me, clearly. ( as did Master Charan Singh appear to me and talked to me clearly, a couple of years ago. )

http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2015/09/survival-of-individual-soul-identity.html

Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

To Andy,......
“The day of death is better than the day of one’s birth.” Ecclesiastes 7:1

“All souls are mine”,......( Ezekiel 18:4 )

“Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his Saints.” ) Psalms 116:15 )

“The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.” ( Isaiah 57:1 )

I still vividly remember, a scene from 1985, where I was conducting the Funeral of a Teen Aged Male, in San Clemente, California. He has been walking on the Train Tracks, and was hit, crushed by the train. His head was crushed, and deformed massively, but his parents insisted that the Funeral Embalmer make the Teen’s Face look “ as natural as possible!

I will never forget, the Teen’s Sister, Mother, and Father sobbing, and clutching the open casket, kissing the deformed face full of wax and make up of their loved one while I, the Pastor , was trying to give them any solstice of that the soul of their loved one was no longer in that deformed body, and had gone on to the Spirit world.

I was not as informed about the Spirit Realm as I now am, because at that time, I was still a Fundamentalist Christian Preacher, and had no knowledge of Sant Mat Philosophy.

Jim Sutherland

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Andy

I, too, am very sorry for your loss.
Grief has many, many stages.
The idea of an afterlife is actually irrelevant.
They are gone.
Dealing with it can take years, even the rest of your life.
But two thoughts I would like to share.
You will survive. As you wrote, it is critical that you do so. If life has any meaning at all, it is that in the face of tragedy, you find a way to carry on.
But not every day.
There will be days you can only sit and live in the grief.
I tell you, that is just as important as getting up and moving on.
Both are essential, and your heart will tell you when is the right time for both.
If your spouse is also going through this you will need other people to support you both.
Are those people there?
People will try to contain your grief in a specified period.
It can't be done. The mix of good days and bad days will take their course.
There is no definable purpose to the grief. It is a river that flows and turns, splashes against hard rock, dries up, then flows again all in its own ways. Some days we are shocked, numb, in trauma. Other days we can't stop the tears. Others, we have hope. And others we are filled to overflowing with pure rage.

And these come and go like unwanted guests. Relatives, relations we are bound to for a time. They become our relatives, our friends. They leave, and they return to visit us again at the least convenient times. This is grief.

But it's real, and your living through it only helps you to help the next person you know who will go through it in the years ahead. There is, if nothing else, that much purpose. And it's a worthy, if expensive, purpose.

Andy, you must survive. That is all that matters. Even if survival is sitting quietly in grief. As you survive, something important is happening.

[D.r]

Jim, how did you transition from a Christian to a fundamentalist Sant Mat devotee?

[777]

Brian may unable to catch
but Andy, . . you might

If there would be 1%% chance the kid is alive,
perhaps more alive than you,
and he observes you
you give him some pain each hour by deleting him

and you cannot exclude this possibility
So, . . please please take care

777

[Jim Sutherland]

D.r. Writes,...”Jim, how did you transition from a Christian to a fundamentalist Sant Mat devotee?l

Me: you have it backwards. I transitioned from a Fundy Christian to Sant Mat, but I wouldn’t honestly admit to ever being a “ devotee.”

You need to read my posts, and blog, and not see me as I may appear on just one or two posts here and there. I think I have explained my self quite clearly, if you just read what I write.

You must know that all of us, including me, “ evolve” along tne Spiritual Path, the moment we turn our lives over to Christ, and believe He hears our invitation to take over our lives. My blog is loaded with my confessions and interpretations.

Sant Mat and Pauline Theology, i.e. Calvinism, ( which I subscribe to) are compatable.

Sant Mat and The Theology that the Apostle Paul taught, was around thousands of years before the Mantras RADHASOAMI or the “ Five Names were used to quiet the monkey mind, and stay focused at the Third Eye so the “ Mighty Rushing Wind” and the “ Tongues of Fire” appeared in the Desciple”s “ Upper Rooms.”

The Jesus Prayer Mantra has been used by Christians since at least the 4rth Century, and the Mantra Jesus gave his Disciples to enter Kingdom Within might still be known, by Jewish Followers of Jesus, that took over the Church under his Brother James.

“Oh Lord Jesus Christ, Have Mercy on me, a Sinner.” That’s the entire Mantra, i.e. repeticious Simran, that was “ Charged” by some Living Master 1600 years prior to what the present RSSB, and other Sant Mat Sects share at initiation. It still works now, as well as any Sant Mat Mantra I have ever tried.

Jim Sutherland

[D.r]

Jim, you sound confused to me. You said you turned your life over to Christ and yet Christ was not good enough for you. You needed more, and you found it in a Sant Mat guru. As I understand it, your guru is not physically alive any more, yet Christ has not been physically around for over 2000 years either.

You speak of simran or mantra repetition and 4th century Christian sinner prayer. Jesus said "do not be like the heathen who use vain repetitions in prayer." The word "heathen" refers to pagan religious practices like mantras.

You equate St Paul's statements with Calvinism, which is not correct. Calvinism is an interpretation of the Bible that came in the 16th century, a long time after Paul.

You didn't explain why you think Calvinism is comparable to Sant Mat philosophy.

There is no Biblical idea of any "monkey mind" and the need to still the mind to somehow experience God. This is an Eastern concept drawn from Hinduism and Buddhism, which are the opposite of Biblical meditation.

You mention the Holy Spirit appearing like the sound of rushing wind and tongues of fire. You are referring to the Pentecost experience of the direct disciples of Jesus. The descriptions "sound of rushing wind" and "tongues of fire" are metaphors in the Biblical text and have nothing to do with the Aum sound or some third eye.

There is no esoteric interpretation of the Biblical texts. 2000 years of Christian mystics as well as non mystics is proof that there is no connection between Hinduism and the Bible in terms of any OM and third eye. No Christian mystics talk about the OM sound or mention any third eye experience. Classically, the experience of the Holy Spirit involves sanctification and regeneration - the born again experience - which has to do with sin in the sight of a Holy God. The baptism of the spirit involves "fire" as opposed to a water baptism.

Jesus is not recorded as giving out any mantras. And what you claim about mantras "working" is a subjective experience that belongs only to you or anybody else that claims they work. Many people have tried such mantra meditation and got absolutely nothing out of it. Some have tried mantra meditation and been subjected to demonic oppression and possession.

But you didn't answer my question anyway. How did you go from a Christian to a Hindu?

[Jen]

Dear Andy, my heart goes out to you. As a parent I cannot even imagine how heartbreaking it must be to deal with this kind of tragedy.

777's comments are difficult to decipher but I think that what he is saying, and this is the only thing I can think of that may help you in your situation, is to (even if it is imagination) try to feel that your son is near to you in the spiritual realm and send him love and comfort and warmth as if he is still alive and existing in another realm near to you.

We do need to experience and feel our grief so that we can heal over time but if at the same time you can send this love and warmth to your son maybe this will help him and help you as well.

[Jim Sutherland]

D.r.,.....it is you, that is sounding like a Fundamentalist Christian. What is your Goal here? Are you trying to convert me, to some thing? IF so, what exactly?

I am not a Hindu. Rai Saligram was a Hindu, that steered the Sant Mat Philosophy that Swamiji started, based on the Adi Granth of the Sikh Religion, laced with “ some” Eastern Philosophy, such as Charausi and The Wheel of 84, etc. jaimal adi gh of RSSB was not a Hi du, and steered Sant Mat back to the Adi Granth and Bible.

It was actually Sawan Singh , a Fundamentalist Sikh, that didn’t even want to accept the new RADHASOAMI Mantra that Rai Saligram introduced to Swamiji’s Five Name Mantra., who kept giving out the Fve Names at Initiation.

Jesus must have given his Apostles some type of Charged Mantra, because his Desciples prayed, and cast out demons,...” in his Name.”

Brian isn’t going to allow his site to become a Bible Study forum, so I am not going to waste any more of my brain cells trying to defend what I believe, and has, and contnues to work for me.

You will have to find and use what works for you, depending on what you find is important to you, in life.

I suggest you secure the two books off the RSSB site on Matthew and John that Charan Singh wrote, and the one Dr. Stone wrote titled “The Mystic Bible.” Most of the Sant Mat and Christian connection is listed in those books, plus, it appears you have never read Dr. Julian Johnson”s Book, “ The Path of The Masters.” Johnson was a Christian Baptist Missionary!

For me, I am content, secure, fairly healthy, ( for a month short of 76), have traveled the world, am fnancially secure, still happily married after 56 years with my one and only Bride, and don’t know of any one still alive, that is able to make my life any better.

Didn’t Paul teach to “Pray with out ceasing”? Sounds like a repetitive Mantra to me.

Christ is the Word, Shabd, Ringing Radiance, Audable life Stream, AUM, OM, Logos, Rhema, Allah, ........Holy Spirit,....Cosmic Creator, Rose of Sharan,....

Jim Sutherland

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi D. r.

You wrote

"No Christian mystics talk about the OM sound or mention any third eye experience."

Please consider reading the mystical works of famous Christian mystics : Frie Louis De Leon, Clement of Alexandria, St. John of the Cross, St. Theresa of Avila, Lord Alfred Tennyson, Emily Dickenson and the Monks of the Phylokalia... All eloquently of the ecstatic divine inner music, and the inner light seen through their awakened inner vision.

[Jen]

I like Brian's honesty about being scared when coming face to face with not existing and finding some comfort in letting go and also "nothing to hold on to".

Being an atheist is not for me. I still hope there is an afterlife whether its called spiritual or being in a simulation, whatever! I want to continue the adventure, so here's hoping there is something more than this...

[Spencer Tepper]

For D.r.

Clement of Alexandria, one of the earliest Church Fathers, describes the Word of God as sacred music.

"But let us bring from above out of heaven, Truth, with Wisdom in all its brightness, and the sacred prophetic choir, down to the holy mount of God; and let Truth, darting her light to the most distant points, cast her rays all around on those that are involved in darkness, and deliver men from delusion, stretching out her very strong right hand, which is wisdom, for their salvation. And raising their eyes, and looking above, let them abandon Helicon and Cithaeron, and take up their abode in Sion. "For out of Sion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem, --the celestial Word, the true athlete crowned in the theatre of the whole universe. What my Eunomos sings is not the measure of Terpander, nor that of Capito, nor the Phrygian, nor Lydian, nor Dorian, but the immortal measure of the new harmony which bears God's name--the new, the Levitical song."
Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen

And John tells us this sacred Word was here long before spoken language ever came to be:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:1

The Lord not only sends forth His Word, but He IS His Name. God and the audible Spirit are one:

“This is what the LORD says, he who made the earth, the LORD who formed it and established it—the LORD is his name:"
Jeremiah 33:2

The Lord and his NAME are the same: the Name IS God.

"the LORD God Almighty, the LORD is his name!"
Hosea 12:5

"He who made the Pleiades and Orion, who turns midnight into dawn and darkens day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out over the face of the land— the LORD is his name."
Amos 5:8

If you hear this word, if you experience this word, and the inner light, then of course, there is a different level of certainty that there IS something more, that we are more than we knew.

But it is always a matter of personal experience, personal reason and testing, as with all the rules we live by daily.

Therefore not hearing, not seeing we do not believe. And yet, there is a wonderful beauty to our Atheist brothers and sisters, because they reject mere concept, self-serving propaganda, and self-delusion. They refuse to bow before popularity or cultural tradition, just as the early Church martyrs refused to do so. There is nobility in it. There is a high ethic in it, so long as it does not cast judgement upon others. They live by a very high personal code. It is to be admired. Stocism, in our age.

But if by some small act of faith we pray sincerely, because we realize we cannot stand upon our own two feet, or not, by a pure act of God's Will, (though Faith is also his gift) and we hear, and we see, then that is a different level of awareness, a higher level of consciousness, and so our conclusions are different. Perhaps it is the gift He gives to the weaker ones. I count myself among them.

So, D.r, how can we judge anyone else? We cannot rightly judge even ourselves.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."
Deuteronomy 6:4

In the Hebrew there are no grammatical separators. The actual text is:

"Hear O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one."

The Shema, the greatest prayer in Judaism, is to hear the Lord.

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mark 12:29

Again, there are no grammatical separators in the Greek.

The sentence is actually

"Hear O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one."

[Jim Sutherland]

To D.r.......from Confused Jim.....
Since Brain hasn’t pulled the Peachin plug yet,.....you asked why Jesus wasn’t enough for me. And why I converted to Sant Mat. Fair questions.

Jesus WAS enough, at that time an hour after I invited Christ in to my heart at age 35, after only reading a little of the New Testament Bible, but after only hearing and reading anout other people’s experiences, with none of my own, I started experiencing out side f the Bble, whch first led me to the Rosicricians, Martinists, and Sant Mat, as Dr. Julian Johnson had also persued.

You may not had read my early peak Meditation expernce after being initited y Thakar and Charan Singh, both Sant Mat Masters.

So for your curious entertsinment, hete it is, as happened around early 90s.

Now, for what I found and did not find, in my Space Cadet tours:
As stated before, I never saw any light nor heards any sound before initiation. At initiation, and being free of flesh foods for 90 days, alcohol and drugs for 10 years, I did see a few small "sparks" of light and did hear some "conch or sea shell" sounds when Thakar stuck his thumb in my ear! ( I don't know if the video on Lane's web sight is true, but if so, I'd have been a lot more cautious after I saw it to make sure it was only his thump he was stickling into my ear!!!)

After I got home and started to practice on my own, using the simran and Bajan technique, I saw flases of light that lasted longer, and heard sound that was louder. I took my lessons from Sawan's book, "Spiritual Gems." I spent two years meditating under thakar's regime, both home and with others at his meetings, but was never able to get any further then the flashes of light nor hear any sound without plugging my ears with my thumbs. Many of Thakar's desciples carried around "bajan sticks" everywhere with them. It was a stick shaped like a cross or tee about 3 ft. high. you could sit down in a chair and put or rest your arms on the cross at the top of the stick, and plug your ears with your thumbs for long periods, without exhausting your arms. It seems not very many meditaters I saw in Thakar's group spent much time in Bahjun. they mostly used the sticks, or just sat in chairs plugging their ears, and many used real ear plugs. I tried all of the above, but never got beyond the flases of light, not conch sound only when the ears were plugged. So, boredom sat in after a couple of years, and I was either ready to jump the fence to greener pastures, or quit, altogether. I talked to many Kirpal initiates who had come to Thakar, and most of them were on the same experince level as I, i.e. bored!! I can't ever remember meeting Thakar on the inside. During my early attemps at meditation, I did see many phantam like people I didn't recognize, and even demon like creatures who taunted me! I also felt like I was always off balance, or was ready to lift off my meditation chair, but never really did. I would seem to fall asleep, and my head would fall forward onto my chest, and I would wake up choking or gasping for air, as my wind pipe would be cut off. I read where a master tied his hair to a tree, so his head would stay up, but, I am bald, so that woudn't work for me! So, I tilted my recliner chair I was meditating in just back far enough, so that my head would not fall on my chest, but my spine would stay straight. But, as xxxxxxx testified about her meditation experinces, there was mostly a lot of snoring. At the satsang meeting, we would meditate as a group, and there would be many snoring! so, doubts began to set in for me, and I started to expolre new possibilities. I read Darshan Singh's books, went to a couple of his meetings. I didn't likle his looks, and his talks never got a hook in me. I read Ajib Singh's books, and liked them, and sent for his tapes. He didn't speak English, so needed an interpreter, and I just couldn't feel any heart strings pulling me in his direction. As I said, I was reading Agra books, and enjoyed them, but RSSB books really moved my soul the most! I began to feel I wanted to find how I could get initiation from Charan. ( Before I forget, when I finally did get initiated by Roland DeVries by proxy for Charon, I was first surprised that the simran was the same, but he went into more detail about the bajan posture. The reading of the initiation cerimony from charan was moving and interesting for me, but in all, I was dissapointed in the simplicity of the initiation itself, as it seemed to be just a carbon copy of Thakar's and I had already wasted two years using that method without any significant or satisfying results. I left there actually not very encouraged that I would get any more then I already had.

I went home and started the same old meditation routine, but just changed my visualization from Thakar to Charan. It was difficult to make the transition at first, because I had seen Thakar many times in person, and even had been laser beam zapped by him, but had never seen Charan in person. But, I bought his videos at satsang, and every cassette tape that was available and begain to view the tapes. The transition begain to really take a hold on me, and after listening to hundreds of his tapes with all the usual Q & A sessions in India, I became an "Arm Chair Desciple." I can't really say I fell in love with Charan, long distance, because he had already left the body before we had a chance to establish any real relationship such as most of you core satsangees had with him, but I did really develope a very strong fondness for him. ( I will try and describe my present feeling for him and reasons in a later post.)

I must say, after what I considered the boring initiation by Roland DeVries,( I have always wondered if he reads these posts, or if he might even be an Xer or at least a Lurker on the fence?) I must confess my meditation expierience took off in leeps and bounds as I applied the time sitting. I religiously sat from 4:30 AM until 7:00 AM for seven years. My job schedule allowed me the liberty of doing so, but, I changed jobs, and could no longer keep any definite schedule, and until now, my meditations were hit and miss, 30 min. to an hour here and there.

But, I progressed to large flases of light, even like lighning bolts, as Sawan said would happen. I first saw bright light, bright as the sun, a golden color. Then, beyond the sun, I saw a silvery white sphere, that looked like the moon, Sawan said that would be there. Please note, I never saw everyhing all at once, and it took about five years before I progressed past the moon. Then, after the moon, I saw what I think Sawan refered to as The Star. For me, the star was not 5 pointed, but it actually looked like a glittering diamond, to a silvery white glittering lotus flower. There was a black center in the star, and I fought to keep my focus on the center looking at the black hole. Suddenly, either the star started moving towards me real fast, or I started to be sucked ito the vortex of the black hole in the star. I don't know which, to this day. But, with a lot of practice, I finally was sucked through the center of the star, and that's when the real experiences began! Don't ask me what plane of level or realm I was on, I just don't know.

But, after I broke through the "Black Hole" of the Lotus, I seemed to be in outer space, but the sky was a very bright blue, more blue then any blue sky I have ever experienced. Plus, I was traveling at a very high rate of speed. I felt like I was still sitting in the meditation position, and like I was on a magic carpet. I fought to maintain my balance as it felt like I kept slipping off the carpet and would turn on my side or up side down. I kept focussing right at the center but, was able to see a round planet of some type on my left far ahead, and also another larger planet, (round) on my right, far ahead of me. I was moving so fast, that I actually felt (or seemed to) feel the wind in my face and my hair, (what little I had left) blowing in the wind. When the speed increased to WARP speed, I started to panic, and looked back from where I came from, and as God is my withness, I actually saw the earth back there with all the water and land masses, just like we see from the space shots. I really paniced, then, and.......,ZAPP! I woke up back in by body, or back from the space cadet trip, at least. Now, if all those experiences were the results of just brain neurons firing, I sure seemed to have a lot of input and control on the metodology of having taken the trip. This was my peak experience, and I only went that far out once. But, I spent many more years trying to get there and beyond, with out the success again. I was able to (and am still able) to get to the star, but am never allowed to go through the black hole, or portal again. ( Guess after giving away my experience to ya'll, I won't even see any more flases or specks of light, but, I'm OK with that, too.)

I also had many OBEs, and went through walls, ceilings, through the roof, and rode my magic carpet over the houses in my neighborhood. It seemed I always kept picking up speed to WARP until I paniced, and ZAPP! I landed back in my body in my meditation chair with a noticeable THUD.

Well, that's the high lights of my meditation experiences, for what ever its worth to the club. I trust I may also be put into the "Lunny" catagory by some here, along with other past posters who chose to bare more of their expiernces than some are ready to hear, but, that's OK. As they say, "different strokes for different folks."

I must say, before I move on, none of these past experiences presently make me feel any more spiritual nor stroke my ego. I only witness that they happened to me, and I am still able to get at least to the star, using the RSSB technique described by Sawan in "Spiritual Gems." Will it save me from The Wheel of 84?" You be the judge.

Jim Sutherland

[777]

Will it save me from The Wheel of 84?" You be the judge.

Hi, Jim
YOU are the judge

I enjoyed very much your writing

Now try Love, lots of it
It will astound You

777

-

[777]

"""before the Mantras RADHASOAMI or the “ Five Names were used to quiet the monkey mind, and stay focused at the Third Eye so the “ Mighty Rushing Wind” and the “ Tongues of Fire” """

again
Like the benedictions of the Pope depend entirely on the Pope s State of Mind if not Higher and this covers any priest or radiating person . . .

The words of a Saint are by HIS Power

He can give ANY words, ANY, . . .
coming from a God = All His Powers are In !

777

[Jim Sutherland]

777 writes,.....”Now try Love, lots of it
It will astound You”

Me: Love started with a big swelling around the heart, and ended with a big pain in the,....”but”. 😇

[777]

Jim,

You could beg

to have it pain included above your eyes

after all You take the aspirin

! ! !

7 7 7

[One Initiated]

hi Andy,

I don't know what could be the Karma explanation,
and how the Lord would want that accident to happen to a toddler.
That was utterly painful to read through. I am feeling so sorry for your loss.

I am sorry if I offend you by diverting the focus a little,
but I want to include it here:
When you wrote: "He died instantly"
My grand parents when forced to move to India during the India-Pakistan partition,
they got one of their toddler killed instantly in the ruckus.
And I have seen the pain in their eyes for that loss.
Also I heard them saying:
"If that was the only lifespan grant to the baby, it was a blessing that he died instantly.. instead of the long painful death."

I am in personal contact with an elderly person who is in extreme pain since last 10 years,
due to an extreme medical condition.
he is still a loving disciple of Babaji but everyday he asks the Master for ending his life,
because he is so fed up of bearing so much pain for so many years.

I don't know what is the truth behind these kinds of mishaps in the world.

It's so painful to witness
a young child die, who has not even seen and experienced this life,
who doesn't even know the meaning of death.
also
someone living in constant pain for years and years,
when every single day appears so hard to pass by.

Lots of love to you brother.
May you receive great strength from the Lord and
amazing spiritual growth and get closer to the truth.

[manjit]

Dear Andy,

Thanks for sharing, your comment was quite breath-taking. My commiserations on your loss, I cannot even begin to imagine what that must be like for a father or mother. My thoughts go out to you.

Personally, I really haven't got a clue about existence or death. But I am struck by the responses you've received. Not so much the content, ranging from affirmation of person-al after-death survival to how we live in a cold, mechanical, soul/mind-less universe, but rather the seeming intent behind them. Whilst I personally question the wisdom or truth of these concepts (they seem rather like one dimensional words attempting to describe an infinite-dimension reality, to my ears) or how "helpful" they are (as I wonder about this comment of mine, also), it seems clear to me that behind every one of them is a sentiment of love, concern, compassion, connection etc, even if as clumsily & un-thoughtfully expressed as this comment of mine is. I hope that is something that can provide the slightest of support, warmth or comfort to you (if you're even still reading this thread!), even if only meagerly.

This may be inappropriate to ask, and forgive and ignore me if so, but you mention use of psilocybin & DMT. I am assuming you have not used mushrooms since your loss? Recently there has been some studies around patients with terminal health issues who were given psilocybin as a scientific experiment, and there were some very encouraging results around coming to terms with their condition, acceptance etc. As somebody who's used them before several times, I can completely understand why that could occur, as mushrooms can be great teachers (the DMT "flash" is too quick to have any therapeutic benefits, imo). As I'm sure you probably know, "abyss'" can come and go, when in these altered states......

Anyway, thanks for tip regarding Epicurus - I cannot really recall much about him, it's been a while since I've read up on my Greek philosophers! I shall check it out.

Peace and Love to you...

Manjit