« Being mindful of mindfulness: Zen crap, or enlightened wisdom? | Main | Einstein was right. Neutrinos don't travel faster than light. »

March 15, 2012


Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Very entertaining read.

I liked the Roadrunner paradigm.
Very funny.

Maybe enlightment is to truly focus in the Presence. In the powerful point of Here and Now. To concentrate on existence as it is without judging and analyzing.

After blowing away the clouds of past and future, after disolving the clews of social-cultural-family programming. After stopping the reflex conditioning according to who we have been functioning. There is something new, our forgotten Self.

The meditation is just an exercise for stopping the Mind, maybe a general format in the system, a reboot of our O.S. (operational system), in order to see clearly the Inner Code of being. It's a tool for helping us see (sometimes) more clearly. It is not the purpose, it is the mean.

The very act of seeking something (enlightment/divinity) justifies its lack of.

Stopping seeking proves the opposite.

My point of view on en-Light-enment is diametrically opposed to Brian's. I hold,and KNOW (from near-constant personal experience), that spiritual en-Light-enment is literal, not figurative--that when a yogi is baptized (initiated) by the Holy One, the Divine, the Holy Spirit (Shakti, intense Light-energy) pours down on him, en-Light-ening him by outshining his mind-forms with its down-poured radiant Intensity. When the Spirit (or Bliss)-current continually flows into the yogi and his consciousness (soul)--thanks to this "shedding of Grace, or Blissing/Blesing Power--permanently unites with it, then the yogi attains full en-Light-enment(Self-realization).

From my point of view,comments about spirituality by people who have not experienced the living Spirit, the Shakti, or Sambhogakaya, are tantamount to blind men trying to describe an elephant.

Ron, I haven't had your experience; you haven't had my experience. How can you say that yours is more elevated, more spiritual, more true than mine? Also, can you provide me with any evidence that you have "experienced the living Spirit, the Shakti"?

And even if you have, so what? I've experienced many things that you haven't, because we are different people. How is your experience superior to mine? Isn't that the height of ego, to believe that certain life experiences are far superior to other experiences?

I know people who travel the world, taking cruises, seeing foreign sights, and such. I also know people who stick close to home, living a simple life. Can we say that one is superior to the other? Likewise, what makes your supposed experience superior to what I've realized, understood, found meaning in?

Buddhism finds means in everyday life. You appear to find meaning in some sort of mystical inner state. Are you right and the Buddhists wrong? Or is it better to not talk about right and wrong in this context?

Brian, With 35 years experience under your belt, am interested to know how far you went along the Sant Mat path -

Did you go 'inside' (i.e. withdraw) while meditating?
What sound did you hear during bhajan?

Regards, Nad

Nad, I'm not sure what you mean by the "Sant Mat path." This often is described as being like drilling a tunnel through a mountainside. Nothing is seen until the other side of the mountain is reached. Until then, it is darkness and silence.

So how it is possible to tell how far someone went along such a dark, silent path? (I'm taking the Sant Mat point of view here, which I don't necessarily agree with.)

Also, the Sant Mat gurus have said that progress of a disciple can be "saved up," and then distributed in the form of mystical experiences at a later time, or after death.


Of course I went "inside." That's what meditating with eyes shut and ignoring the outside world is all about. I'd be unconscious, to a greater or lesser degree in different meditation sessions, of what was outside my head. So, yes, of course I went "inside."

I heard some sounds inside my head while I was meditating. However, so does my wife, who has tinnitus from time to time. I've heard "bell" sounds; also ringing sounds. But I don't know what produced them. Again, lots of people hear bells and ringing in their head, and they don't meditate at all.

I had many interesting experiences during my thirty-plus years of daily meditation. And I still meditate every day. I'm a believer in meditation, but no longer a believer in the form of meditation practiced by Sant Mat devotees.

Hi Brian,
I want to test your enlightenment.
If you can answer this question, you can be 'certified' enlightened.

If you have indeed jumped the gap between
intellectual enlightenment and direct experiential enlightenment ....
you will be able to answer this question correctly.

Does the New World Order exist ?

(P.S. Hi Roger. If Brian can get this answer correct, I will stay. If not, I will
leave this club and return a year from now and ask the same question. And, and the year after that.)

Mike, I have no idea what you mean by "New World Order." Turning to the Great God Wikipedia, I see many notions of this:

Tell me in some detail how you view the New World Order, and I'd be much better able to tell you whether I think it exists. Please do this in a single comment, though. I don't want this to become a New World Order discussion blog.

See you next year.


The Great Doctor of Enlightenment, Mr Mike Williams has left the arena, equipped with his 'enlightenment bag' and 'enlightenment certs'! - all intact.

The test results - inconclusive!

What right has anyone to 'test' someone's enlightenment or what qualifications does one need for this 'job'?

I don't know.....but in my mind's eye, I got a 2 x 4 and whacked someone over the head with it. I don't imagine it did any good as I think a thicker plank is called for. Cooked in the pip comes to mind!

Do you think I am adding to my already heavy load of karma by having such thoughts?!?!

"Does the New World Order Exist?

--No. Only 'I' exist and 'I' am no 'where' to be found.

(got that out of my Ch'an 101 Non-Enlightenment textbook, 1st standard edition published in 736 AD by Won Wok Yi )

You didn't say if this was an open book test or not.

tucson, you pass. Can't miss with that authoritative reference. I assume you did the original translation, based on your indepth knowledge of classical Chinese. Most impressive. I would bow before you, if either "I" or "you" was to be found.

It might seem than no one could have freely willed to have said/done anything other than they have. Nor I.

Robert Paul Howard

Mike would of course be enlightened, otherwise he cannot be the judge. But, he can't be enlightened because he is still attached to testing and is planning to come back a whole year later when everyone is onto another koan already.


The Buddhists do not fundamentally disagree with the Hindus and Christians. For example, in Vajrayana Budddhism (Tibetan Buddhism), the Sambhogakaya. the energetic dimension of the Trikaya is analogous to the Christian Holy Spirit, Hindu Shakti, and the Jewish Shekinah. Spirit is simply the dynamical, radiant action of awakened presence (or awareness).

You're in to pop Buddhism and Taoism. Even original Buddhism, what the Buddha taught, isn't about everyday life; it's about attaining Nirvana, getting off the Wheel of Birth and Death, en-Light-enment.

Examine pictures and statues of the Buddha. Notice the marks of en-Light-enment. The energy of awakened awareness literally transforms the body. Enlightened beings like the Buddha and Ramana Maharshi literally radiate love-energy, intense palpable Shakti. Ramana said the Kundalini is just another name for the Self.

You should read books on Tibetan Dzogchen and Hindu Kashmir Shaivism instead of the pop stuff you gravitate toward.

You need to find a guru who can give you Shaktipat, so you can really begin true spiritual life. Check out videos by David Spero and Swami G at youtube.com.

Ron, are you kidding? Buddhism is the same as Christianity? Wow. I think you've fallen into a deeply religious form of Buddhism, which likely isn't what the Buddha taught.

What you call "pop" Buddhism is the essence of Zen, and also of non-religious Taoism. Subtract unprovable supernatural beliefs in rebirth, reincarnation, divine beings, heavens and hells, and you're left with a profound approach to living -- here and now, on Earth.

In my opinion, which is shared by many others, the religious sort of Buddhism you find attractive is a perversion of what the Buddha probably taught. I have to say "probably," because nobody knows what the Buddha's teachings really were, just as nobody knows what Jesus' teachings really were.

I have read books on Dzogchen. Also, some Tibetan Buddhism. I just don't find the religious side of Buddhism very interesting. Even Zen has a lot of religious overtones, with all the bowing and scraping before supposedly enlightened masters.

May I suggest some books that you should focus on, rather than the woo-woo Buddhism you mention: "Buddhism Without Beliefs" by Stephen Bachelor (a former monk in the Zen and Tibetan traditions), and "Buddhism is Not What You Think" by Steve Hagen (a Zen priest).

These books would show you a way to living your Buddhism that isn't centered on religious concepts. Just a suggestion.

"You need to find a guru who can give you Shaktipat, so you can really begin true spiritual life. Check out videos by David Spero and Swami G at youtube.com."

---Finding a guru is OK, I guess, however, as the years pass, one finds that rather unnecesary. Also, a "true" spiritual life is relative. Checking out videos on youtube, again is Ok, but rather relative and within our relative duality.

"Even original Buddhism, what the Buddha taught, isn't about everyday life; it's about attaining Nirvana, getting off the Wheel of Birth and Death, en-Light-enment."

"Examine pictures and statues of the Buddha. Notice the marks of en-Light-enment. The energy of awakened awareness literally transforms the body."

---This sounds like the standard "pop" religious Buddhism. All this attainment stuff, sounds like book sales and other gimicky wordage.

If the "new world order" does exist, in all probability by the time their plans mature they will be cold and obsolete. The only order of the day is change, and nobody can control it.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.


Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.