« Religion is wrong, but it feels right to believers | Main | Taoism isn't mystical. It is natural. »

March 25, 2012


Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Hi Brian, before posting my comment I would like to thank you because this great blog has really been an awesome read and I have really found something to check on a regular basis that I know will deliver challenging and interesting content.

Regarding this specific post you made, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm seeing a remnant interest in Radha Soami Satsang Beas development, I'm not saying this to criticize, I wouldn't do that, I'm saying it because most of what's here is indeed interesting because you actually managed to leave the sect, however as I said I notice it is still an important part of your blogging activities, now the reason I'm saying this too is because I feel identified with it, I want to share with you my experience, my own personal battle is against "Casa Tibet" here in Queretaro, (a city located in Mexico), I approached this tibetan "movement" because I had expectations of learning more about meditation to control my temper and even some bön religion aspects (the more fantasy related ones to be honest, I became obsessed after reading Alexandra David-Neel), and what I found to my own surprise is that event the instructor rejected me and made fun of me in front of the whole class for even bringing the topics to the questions I was asking.

I felt that "Casa Tibet" was just another hypocrite religious place where hypocrite people went to feel they were being freed not of "attachments" but of any responsibility with their reality, also to my surprise I found that this was nothing like most people would expect, for instance I can tell you that the people that administrates the place and the woman that came to instruct us acted like if they were far superior to the other people, they even left us there while they just left to eat some pork tacos (I followed them, the instructor told us she was a vegetarian, I guess tacos were too powerful for her enlightened state), too much for my community expectations you know.

I also noticed that the "compassion" they were talking about was nothing but being a damned robot without any single human reaction, this was really shocking, this people is really indoctrinated, the instructor even told us that she was certain that none of us would reincarnate in a human form but rather in a very low animal form, everybody was shocked, and, as you may conclude the real fools were frightened with the idea.

In short I can tell you that my experiences with Tibetan Buddhism were something totally disconnected from reality and was a complete sectarian way of life. The instructor should have hated me because I really threw some elaborated questions she couldn't just answer. Oh and one thing I cannot understand is why they make you pay a fixed donation instead of whatever you would like to contribute. So, I just left Tibetan Buddhism, I wanted to learn more but found myself against a solid rock wall because I wanted to do exactly what the Buddha taught his monks to do, question everything.

I hope sharing my experience would be some kind of contribution. Thanks again.

"None of the Saints which I've mentioned herein meditated for hours on end."

This is an absurt statement...How on earth can anyone claim that..!?!

How does one know what one does throughout his/her day? How can one claim that Kabir or Swami Ji, or Sawan Singh, or the Buddha, or Jesus, or Rumi or Plotinus did not extensively "mediated." How can one reach such a conclusion from one's couch reminds me of colonial discourses of the "other."
(see Edward Said and Eric Wolf)

Via virtue of this statement by the writer he/she did not deserve such an exposure, but we are living in a postcolonial world where Western Etiquettes are considered by Westerners to be Universal. Analysing thus Guruship as if its the Republical debate.

The Blogger and the Quoted person apply the"sociological" language of Western Theory (a child of a society of hierarchies and domination) to explain what exactly?

Very poor analysis.

There is a greek poem by this famous greek poet whose name I can't recall that says.

The words were perfect the way they were...
Why did you have the need to go on and disturb them
in a text?
Why did you just not let them be.
A flower without the "Flower"
A Bee without the "Bee"


"It's been written that Kabir Mahraj cried on the account of not reciting the naam for 2 breaths/ 2 seconds, and here we have a so called saint who sings contemporary songs, nothing related to naam, for hours."

Lucky for the people Kabir SANG to.

Adrian, thanks for sharing your story. I resonated with your mention of "damned robot without any single human reaction."

In my thirty years of association with an Indian spiritual group, which bears some resemblance to your "Casa Tibet," I too ran into lots of people who had embraced an intellectual/conceptual understanding of a morality, and expressed it just as you said -- like a robot, using the same stock phrases such as "I am nothing; the guru is everything; I am just doing His Will."

Yeah, right. Acting like a jerk. Playing control games. Enjoying roles of authority so other people could be bossed around.

Yes, I do write now and then about my experience with RSSB. And other people send me stuff about RSSB that I occasionally share on my blog. But otherwise I don't spend much time thinking about RSSB. I'm in the process of giving most of my books away.

If I had been a devout Catholic, I'd use Catholicism as an example of religiosity, because I'd be most familiar with it. Since I know a certain form of Indian philosophy very well, I talk about that instead.

"I'm in the process of giving most of my books away."
quote Brian

Now you are enlightened.

Congratulations Brian.
L'article est fantastique!

Your data show how the manipulation of information flow can alter:

-historical perceptions
-logical connections
-dogma creation

How they create a solid base for the launch of a selective reality tunnel. It sounds like: "Hey there, we have prefab, premade versions of reality, comfort zones of spirituality for everyone.

We sell also full package, sant-mat scenarios to consume your whole life into.

Pathetic waste of earth life-time, the dogma-bitten spirituality is.

Goodness!! A year has passed so quickly!

Robert Paul Howard

Brian, please get over this cult and your attachment to it or create a separate blog for yourself and other hung-up ex-devotees because your interest in neuroscience is good and blog-worthy, but your beef with those turbaned nut-jobs is of interest only to similarly afflicted ex-members.

My old article may have relevance


I agree with Tara. A number of people have been helped or informed by this blog regarding RSSB. I think quite a few people interested in the organization stop by here although they may not participate.

I understand your boredom and disinterest in RSSB topics. My suggestion would be to bear with them or ignore them. The host does offer up a good variety of other topics, I think. Involve yourself with the ones that interest you. Works for me.

"If saints like Kabir Maharaj or Guru Nanak Maharaj didn't have Guru's themselves, then that would make them hypocrites!"

I am led to believe that the (initial?) Guru of Kabir Das, when Kabir ji was still a child was:

Ramananda (1400–1476 CE), also referred to as Sant Ramanand or Swami Ramanand, was a Vaishnava sant. He is considered to be the reviver of the Ramanandi sect. Ramananda for the most part of his life lived in the holy city of Varanasi, and was a pioneer of the Bhakti movement, as well as a social reformer in Northern India. He was known for communicating in vernacular Hindi, and accepting disciples of all castes. His 12 disciples are very famous-Anantananda, Bhavananda, Dhanna Bhagat, Kabir, Nabha, Naraharyanda, Pipa, Ravidas (also known as Guru Ravidas), Bhagat Sain, Sukhanada, Ranka and Tulsidas (the author of the Ramcharitmanas).


"Also, I have never known any true saint to sing contemporary songs of their time, whereas the current so called Baba of RS [Gurinder Singh Dhillon], revels in singing contemporary songs."

I am curious as to which contemporary songs he sings. There are many contemporary Bollywood songs which can be sung with Naam, GOD, the Ultimate Reality, the absolute or any other benefit providing being in mind. Take for example this song:

"Dheerae Dheerae sae maeri Zindagi mein aana, Dheerae Dheerae sae Dil ko churana, haamae pyaar kitna hai tum sae jaanae jaana, tum sae mil kae tum ko hai batana"

"Come softly into my life, softly steal my heart, the extent of my love for you, I will tell you about when I meet you."

Or this one, especially if one has Radha Soami in mind:

"My heart beats for you, when I see you my heart lurches." Ultimate Reality wants us as much as we want it.

1990 Bollywood cutes


One old controversy is that Sar Bachan was dictated to Saligram by Soamiji. It has been claimed that the former changed the text to notably include the Name Radhasoami as being like the Highest Sound in the "Highest" Spiritual Region. In Spiritual Letters Baba Jaimal Singh published Sar Bachan but "altered" the text claiming that what was presented was actually the "original" which it may well have been! A startling difference in the Beas text compared with the Saligrams one is about the claim that when the Perfect Master dies he still acts as the inner Master for the disciple. However, Saligrams Sar Bachan claims that when the Masters his, or her successor should be accepted as the new Master, and not the predecessor!

The following may be of interest.


The following piece on Shiv Dayal Singh has an interesting link to books published by Soamibagh Satsang which is sometimes regarded as the parent rock of the RS Faith.


Your thoughts are not that of a realized soul. How can one accept your line of thinking AS opposed to our sant sat guru Charan Singh.

David, my thoughts are of someone who has realized some things. Everybody, including you, has to decide for themselves what makes for a meaningful life. There's no absolute rights and wrongs here. Each to his own. Or do you consider that some people are privy to Absolute Truth?

"Satyug, treta, dwapur beeta,kahu na jani shabad ki reeta"
sir, there is a translation mistake.
you have written
"Satyug, treta, dwapur have passed, nobody knew the path of shabad"
but the right translation is
"Satyug, treta, dwapur have passed,but i was unaware of path of shabad"
he writes on behalf of us. he says that if we were aware of shabad before than we would not be here instead in sachkhand much before.

swami ji maharaj accepted radha soami name by saligram ji. he says in sarbachan
'radha is name of soul and swami is name of god'
it is wrong to say that it has got its name because of nickname radha ji.


Your poster is correct. Salig Ram did
begin the Radhasoami Faith, even mentioned in
Swami Ji's last commandments (will).

Radha Ji had nothing to do with the name
Radha Soami.

This yoga began in a city called Brindraban.
Ironically, one of Swami Ji's brothers.

There they practised surat shabad yoga
as you know it, saying the words
Radha Krishna.

And, I have been initiated by a Guru
of this lineage (with a mile long name,
don't ask) in person.

From Yogananda to Swami Ji to Tulsi das,
it all originated in Brindraban City.

Chachaji called Girdhari Das chief disciple
of Tulsi Das. Girhari lived in one of Swami
Ji's homes in Lucknow. It has historically
reported by Maheswari, Swami Ji treated
Girdhari as his Guru, from letters of the day. (Biography Swami Ji, Chachaji)

Swami Ji, banker, man of property, whom
also made loans. Wealthy family.

in the period that I did murder and many other non helpful practices
mainly for my entertainment
here come a story that may help one and will creep an other
Don't read it Roger :

In 1865 I was visited by a man who was that Banker you spoke about , Seth Shiv Dayal,
He came with my sister who was at that time out-married to a man, living not far from Agra, where she
attended Satsang

This Seth said to me :
" You know you'r bound for hell, and you know it which is to be more deeper drowned in Chaurasy ( the wheel of reincarnation & trans-migration)
but I have a proposal :

I will save you from all those terrors you have prepared for yourself

if you will spend half of your capital
to the following purposes I will tell you

( I can't tell here the material commercial some of them ; works that he mentioned to me to do
because it would make me traceable
via the English Libraries on India )

I was wealthy, yes, because my family had always helped the english and gained a lot with
a kind of Halliburton enterprise, I operated
for the English army
in their Bush like war against the indian 'terrorists'
and I was rather fanatic myself

However There was this glance in the Eyes of that Visitor : Swami Ji, that was highly intriguing to me
and I said 'Yes', . . immediately,

and also ordered to stop the killing
Coward, . . isn't it !

This is just one episode one can remember as a result of meditation

Our Guide in RS, at least RSSB, gives the remembrances you need
In my case I don't need much because it's a giant loss to spend even a second of "Sound Bathing-Washing" AND THE BEWITCHED-NESS
that comes forth , . . just out of the power those 5 words

Ah Yes as said before
This is paradise : that you by merging in your own Master ( one who gave the words)
You can benefit or be witness of the constant love-flow which He throws to HIS OWN Master
that is in my case Sawan Singh and more profondly : the phenomenon where Sawan looks which is Jaimal, . .
who is merged in Seth Shiv Dayal
and next Tulsi and many
great Darshan givers before Tulsi

and this goes on and on

I see not as far as my wife who has Darshan from very old in history Saints
like Jesus , many Essene Sainst, up to Solomon, and Melchisadech

( If the jewish Talmud, Torah reseachers and schools
, if the Pope knew it is so easy )

In all ages there were many splitted factions
and that is exactly because the ego cannot be purified by the ego

No human can cure her-him self

The slightest mind-phrase like
"Hé Sir God, . . I did it"
brings one back to the opposite side of the trampoline .

Also: there is no God !
All there is is Dharma

This massive inflowing individuals filled with love
That's God
She is not a static phenomenon

Once, millions to the power of a billion of universes ago
we started this thing : OURSELF

Nothing is real but your personal
universe seems / is SO real

Seeking help is Cool

Name calling Saints , how strange they may behave in our moronic eyes
is really unwise and not at all helpful
Neither for those we Love and by their love for us
are bound to us

We go were our hearts already are
and they follow us by their attachments to us

ps on the billions

Maybe Gurinder collects some $
because of the rising waters showed to me too
40 meters around 2060

Like the works Sith Shiv asked
were for the later proved welfare of India

karmas just continuing

The following comment in the original post:

"Also, I have never known any true saint to sing contemporary songs of their time, whereas the current so called Baba of RS [Gurinder Singh Dhillon], revels in singing contemporary songs."

really made me curious to know if GSD really enjoys singing and if yes what some of his favorite songs are. I would guess that many others would also be interested.

I saw that Janya Barrish also showed a similar curiosity above:

"I am curious as to which contemporary songs he sings."

But, rather than seeking an answer to his question, he went on to provide an answer himself.

"There are many contemporary Bollywood songs which can be sung with Naam, GOD, the Ultimate Reality, the absolute or any other benefit providing being in mind. Take for example this song:

"Dheerae Dheerae sae maeri Zindagi mein aana, Dheerae Dheerae sae Dil ko churana, haamae pyaar kitna hai tum sae jaanae jaana, tum sae mil kae tum ko hai batana"

"Come softly into my life, softly steal my heart, the extent of my love for you, I will tell you about when I meet you."

Or this one, especially if one has Radha Soami in mind:

"My heart beats for you, when I see you my heart lurches." Ultimate Reality wants us as much as we want it."

With due respect to Janya Barrish, I would like others to solve/answer/satisfy my curiosity. So, if someone really knows about this "interest" of GSD, please share your knowledge here.

Thanks in advance.


I read some again in this chapter
and I like to repeat that SIMRAN on
any words
depends enirely on the status of the giver
and what energies he is capable to put in

Hitler gave mantrams too
plus vibrations

There are 99% fake gurus around


There are all sorts of misnotions in RS History. This fellows history is typical.
Much is wrong, little right.
This book puts together known documented facts for the first time in one place.


Man Was a Vegetarian in Past Evolution

"A study of evolution indicates that the prostate and breast appeared at the same time 65 million years ago
with the development of mammals. All male mammals have a prostate; however, the seminal vesicles are
variable and are determined by the diet so that species primarily eating meat do not have seminal vesicles. The exception is the human, who has seminal vesicles and consumes meat, although this is a recent dietary change. Human lineage departed from other higher primates 8 million years ago. The closest existing
primate to humans is the bonobo (pigmy chimpanzee), which does not eat meat but exists primarily on a high fruit and fresh vegetable diet.... All current epidemiologic evidence and suggestions for preventing prostate and breast
cancer in humans indicates that we should return to the original diets under which our ancestors evolved."

UROLOGY 57 (Suppl 4A): 31–38, 2001.


That's not correct.

Maharaj Ji and Sardar Bahadur Ji both were appointed as the upcoming Masters by Bade Maharaj Ji (Baba Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj) only.
For more info, you can read Spiritual Letters, Spiritual Gems and Ruhani Diary.

The reason why Sardar Bahadur Ji became Master for just 3 years (like Jesus Christ) is something one'd only know after reaching Par Brahm. So, really any debate on that would be sheer waste of time.

Love is just awesome.
May God let everyone feel the Love within.

One Initiated

The reason why Sardar Bahadur Ji became Master for just 3 years (like Jesus Christ) is something one'd only know after reaching Par Brahm.

…..And one can never reach Par Brahm without the grace of Almighty Babaji Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

thanks for information I love every one like GOD KABEER say SAI KE SB JEEV HAI KIDI KUNJAR SOI. your hard work for reaching god should be succesful. this is my concernd we are childern of same god, all are brother and sister, pl this invaluable human form always should remember god and help others, thanks and love for all.


Very true.
That was the absolute statement.

@Das Charan

Every single one of us is like God Kabir only, but in unrealized form.
Masters are in realized form.

I can't tell you how close I myself find to the Lord Kabir. Lord Kabir is not anywhere outside in the books, He's right inside each one of us. He is currently realized in the form of Babaji.

They all are the same, really exactly same.
Those who know me here, knows that how 100% truth I am telling here that God Kabir is exactly our beloved Babaji in the current times.

We are not only the Children of same God, each and every one of us is actually that God who created us.
Love is the only thing needed to realize that.
It's not easy to just Love.
It's very easy to Love but not easy to just Love.

In the physical world, our coin of currency works.
In Astral, the coins earned by good karma works.
The cause of the good karmas doesn't matter there. Most of the times the good karmas are performed with the not so good cause. Still the coins earned by good karmas (performed by any inherited cause) will work.
In Causal, only the coins earned by good causes works. No coin will be earned even for the greatest of visible good karma if the cause was not good.

After Causal i.e. the Par Brahm, only Love works. Reaching here one can understand how to just Love. Or precisely, when one can just Love, can cross the Causal and reach the Par Brahm.

After Par Brahm, i.e. Sachkhand, you yourself becomes the One, you yourself becomes the Love.

As beautifully said by Mikhail Naimy:

"The human birth is an oven from which the soul can become the God.
Feed your heart as fuel, let the flame begin to lit. Realize your Soul, realize the One, be the One."

May God bless each one of us.
May each one of us feel the Love inside.
May each one of us learn to just Love and make their human birth worth the One.

"Ve kyun aye is jagat mein, jin mili na poonji shabd ki "
"Janam akarath kho diya, jo chadhe na ghati shabd ki "

- Soami Ji Maharaj.

Why those humans have taken the birth, who have not been able to realize the wealth of Shabd.
They have lost the golden chance by not climbing the valley of Shabd.

One Initiated

Quote Mike: "The closest existing
primate to humans is the bonobo (pigmy chimpanzee), which does not eat meat but exists primarily on a high fruit and fresh vegetable diet.... All current epidemiologic evidence and suggestions for preventing prostate and breast
cancer in humans indicates that we should return to the original diets under which our ancestors evolved"

---One problem with this theory is that humans are not bonobos. We are humans. All physiological evidence shows that humans are omnivores.

The earliest fossil record of Homo Sapiens dates back about 125,000 years. These remains were found in coastal South Africa with evidence that they were eating shellfish.

No, I'm not saying go out and eat shellfish to prevent prostate cancer. The best way to avoid that is to die young.

Eat what you like. Vegan, meat, dairy. We all will get to the end of our lives one way or another. No worries on that account. If you eat a healthy omnivorous or veg diet you may live to be 85 instead of 72, or not. It's a crap shoot. No big deal in the overall scheme of things.

Hi Tucson,
Actually on Apr 17, one day before my 62 birthday,
I am having a prostate biopsy
in surgery center of hospital.

My PSA was 4.7, which means I have a 33%
chance of having it.

I did alot of research. I eat lots of
real cheese. Milk and Cheese turn out to
be the biggest causes of prostrate cancer.
Many studies confirm. And other cancers.

Prostate cancer killed Gary Cooper, Huell Howser recently, Merv Griffen, Frank Zappa.

I am a full vegetarian. I don't drink any milk,
but eat lots of cheese. Had no idea
cheese could kill you.

Resveratrol, ginger root, melatonin shown
to actually cure prostate cancer.

Mike Williams without smart assing i am sending you this mail of raw food man... Mike get the book go on juice fast do alots of enemas and get healed in this pas year i did many fasting and cleansing and went down from 110kg to 86kg and totaly healed damaged knees i too tomorrow start another juice fast and serious strength training and vinyasa ,Mike BE BRAVE AND DO THE CLEANSING by the 17.04 you will feel 100% different


and get healyourself 101

your moon

Thanks moongoes,

The mistake I made in my life
was helping people, instead
of animals.

I sincerely hope your prostate biopsy results are good.

It is true that animal milk products are not a natural food of humans. In the developmental period of modern humans during the Pleistocene era it could have been fatal for a hunter gatherer to even try to obtain milk products from wild aurochs and bison.

Humans are best adapted to those foods available with minimal tools, technology and processing. There were no tofu trees available to the ancient nomadic hunter gatherer. Nor were cereal grains as we know them today available. Vegetation, fruit, berries, tubers, roots, seeds, insects, fish and game were on the menu.

Nuts have many beneficial properties. A handful of a variety of nuts every day may increase longevity. Herbs such as rosemary, turmeric and tarragon are thought to have anti-cancer properties and other benefits

Yes Mike but that has nothing to do with what you ate and whats with your body now this is no time for philosophy now it is time for your health, now get your enema bag and start with cleanse you will see so much sun that you will feel like Milo of Croton and start doing stretches and bodyweight Streetworkout,, look on youtube.

1 get enema bag and stop eating
2 get green vegetables and start juicing
3 affter every enema and at the end of the day take probiotics
4 drink some lemon in water also apple cider in water
Mike come on get your stuff out of you you will really feel things that you even didnt know you can feel Mike i dont wat to help you i dont want my " ego" here, i want you to help you come on be a warrior and start cleansing please and if you need advice and support send me emails and be open. Peace be strong, your moon

Not long ago i ate some eggs affter i took advice of few smart asses here and almost got me killed nut ok i do not blame them cause action was on my side, but the point is in cleansing not what ee stuff in,

I used to do some cleansing and fasting decades ago. I once went for a week on water alone and on just juices and teas for longer periods a couple of times. I ate mostly fruit for a year. Then raw vegan for another year. I remember my first cooked potato and steamed veggies after just raw foods for a year. Remarkable! Then I was into macrobiotics and did 10 days on only brown rice a couple of times. My health was good, but it should have been. I was in my 20's.

I think people go overboard on the cleansing thing, but in support of Moon there is a time for it. I might even do a cleanse soon as a result of Moon's and others' inspiration. Fasting and cleansing seems to be coming at me a lot lately, so maybe "Something Else" is giving a hint.

If the body is healthy it cleanses itself. We have kidneys and livers that do the job, but sometimes they need a little help. For most people all that is needed is to miss a meal or two now and then and drink lots of water and local herb infusions.

Seth Shiv Dayal Singh may not approve but an all meat diet can also be cleansing via ketosis and burning fat reserves which store a lot of toxins. They key is to drink lots of water when you do this and the meat should be "clean" meat from wild game or at least naturally raised animals and not factory farmed animals, and not very much of it because you don't need very much. The first two weeks are difficult but then the body learns to utilize fat for energy instead of the glucose stored in the liver. Once that kicks in you feel better and energy levels improve. You can live like this for a lifetime as did many Inuit tribes, but their meat was usually raw and they ate organs as well and lots of fat. Raw whale blubber and seal oil... Mmmmm mmmmm.

For most people here, fasting on herb infusions, water and juices is probably preferable. Seth Shiv Dayal Singh would agree.

Hi tucson and moon,

I knew many years ago milk was incredibly
bad for men and switched to soy milk.

I was eating huge amounts of real cheese
and never connected it to milk.

I can't believe I was so stupid.

Milk is cheese !

Cheese pizza, cheese enchiladas, cheese
sandwiches (with Fritos), cheese everywhere.

Moderate amounts of cultured dairy products like yogurt are often better tolerated than milk or cheese. This may be an option for lacto-vegetarians who have OD'd on cheese (*Seth Shiv Dayal Singh would approve). True vegetarians who eat no animal products at all must supplement with vitamin B12.

*Notice how I cleverly keep my comments on the original thread topic by mentioning Seth Shiv Dayal Singh.

Hi tucson,

A Hearty Yogananda to you also and may
Shri Daya Mata bless you with garlands
from Anami and crown you with blessings
from the feet of the Great Shiv.

May the jackass of faith... never be your
guide and may you become lost amoungst
the stars.

(I am not to be outdone)

By the way, I literally never eat vegetables.

No kidding. The only time I eat a vegetable
is when it is on a pizza. I told my doctor
this. It's true.

I do eat French fries. Are potatos a
vegetable ?

I do eat vegetarian soy hamburgers,
though. Is soy a vegetable ?

Hi Mike,

Words of wisdom from a starry nebulae where Seth Shiv Dayal Singh may dwell...

Soy and french fries are not vegetables. A vegetable is a person whose mental capabilities have been reduced to that of a plant either from illness, accident or reading too many Radha Soami books.

(Just kidding, RS'ers, but your religion is a bit hard to swallow, sort of like a whole potato, even though I did it once. Must be the Irish in me. The rest of me is New Guinea Highlander)

Quote Tucson.....True vegetarians who eat no animal products at all must supplement with vitamin B12

Oh my god just like listening to an old satsangee thinking that his guru is supernatural gihf just that believing that for 30 years and now having false believe of b12 for another 30 eh eh Tucsonovich you did not changed your mind you just changed the subject over years, now your gihf is b12. Still dwelling in dogma...

Hi tucson,
May the toes of Shiv Dayal ever provide
you sustanance. And, the mistress of Charan
light your dark nights.

You know Shiv (Swami Ji) had a Guru called
Girdhari Das (Sahib). Agra admits this. Girdhari's ashram exists to this day.

There is a video on You Tube of his bhandara
being performed there.

Girdhari lived in one of Swami Ji's houses.

Talsi Das was the Guru of Swami Ji's
parents. Girdhari was an unauthorised successor of Tulsi, whom Chachaji called
"chief disciple" of Tulsi in his biography
of Swami Ji.

Girdhari was definitely the Guru of Shiv
(Swami Ji). Letters exist where people say
Swami Ji treated Girdhari as his guru.

Swami Ji had to be a born Guru, or admit
he was the disciple of Girdhari.

Tulsi's ashram was too close for comfort
and they did not accept Girdhari as successor.

That's the real reason they had to say
Shiv (Swami Ji) was a born Guru.

By the way, I also eat bean burritos.
Are beans a vegetable ?

I had my B12 level taken not long ago
and have been a vegan for decades.

My B12 level was above normal and I never took supplements.


Interesting about Shiv.

Thanks for the blessings but I'm going to pass on the toe sucking as one of Seth Shiv's female disciples reportedly did to him.

There is B12 in cheese and other dairy products. Since you, by your own admission, have consumed massive quantities of cheese I would not expect your levels to be low.

Little Smelly Nail,

Regarding the "dogma" of B12 science:

Vegans (true vegetarians), by definition, do not eat animal products of any kind. No milk, cheese, yogurt, eggs, etc. They are the ones who should take a B12 supplement because there is no B12 in the vegetable kingdom (There may be a little in some algae). The body stores B12 and one can go for years without it before problems with blood formation and the nervous system develop.

Thanks for tip. Now that I am going
to stop eating cheese, I better take B12
supplements. Good to know.

Swami Ji immediately assumed Guruship
upon the death of Girdhari, at the request
of Salig Ram. (grin)

The B12 Question

It seems the paranoid panic online theme of the month making it's rounds is "Where do you get your B12?" Apparently people got tired of the "Where do you get your protein" question, so now it's B12.
In nature, you would pull a carrot out of the ground, brush it off and eat it. There would still be some soil organisms on the carrot, and that's normally where you'd get your B12. Ever notice how kids that get filthy and dirty are healthier than those kept in a sterile environment? Sure I guess you could eat dirt, but it's actually the ORGANISMS in the dirt and their poop that has the B12. To be blunt- B12 is found in poop. Your body even creates some of it's own, but most of it comes from the little critters living inside you. Every cell, parasite, probiotic and worm eats and poops. This poop is raw material for new life. In nature, everything has a purpose and recycles. Do you know what B12 pills are made from? SEWAGE !

If you are paranoid about being deficient in B12, go ahead and dissolve some B12 pills under your tongue- just know what it really is. Funny how they try to hide it with that cute pink color so you don't think about the fact you are dissolving fecal matter under your tongue haha! Have you heard of the new rage? Fecal transplant therapy(!) Where they take poop from a healthy person and "implant" it into a weak, unhealthy person- and 90% of the time, that person gets better!! I know this is a disgusting thought, but there's something to learn from this. My suggestion is simply to FEED and NURTURE the probiotics and healthy organisms already inside you. The best food to encourage growth of probiotics is fiber. The best source is unwashed wild and garden plants. Seaweed has B12, and there is some in chlorella, spiralina, even bee pollen has some, as do fermented foods and liquid probiotics. As for eating unwashed things right from the soil, stop worrying too much about parasites. You can't avoid them anyway. They're everywhere. If you're body is CLEAN and you are eating natural foods (no bread, pasta, cereal, flour, sugar and cooked foods), they won't want to live inside you anyway. Herbs are your friends and allies. Only the good guys will stick around when you use powerful herbs and plants. Stop trying to disinfect everything in your life. Get dirty. Start having some fun!


Methylcobalamin is thought to be the best form of B12 to take. Widely available where quality supplements are sold.

Now, to quote the writer at the beginning of this thread:

"Fourthly, on many occasions, I heard a few RS followers say that a sign of a true saint is one who does not let anyone bow in front of them or touch their feet (which as you may know is a sign of great respect in India). But in Soami Ji's life account, Chacha Partap Singh writes that one of Soami ji's close disciples, Bukki, used to 'suck his toe' because she used to think that she got the same feeling as if she was drinking milk. When people used to come to Soami ji to pay their repects, he used to tell them to bow to the other foot which is not being sucked. Is this the sign of a Saint?"

-- In your research, Mike, have you found much corroboration of this? If true, I think this is pretty f-ing weird regardless of the culture and mores of the time in which Swami Ji lived. I'm sure RS devotees such as Juan, One Initiated and 777 would have some way to rationalize this and not have a problem with it.

This Bukki was sucking Swami G toe because of b12 cause he had alot of dirt behind it. Yes it was b12. Now get everybody find some pretty nasty toe and suck your b12, bon apetit yo mthafukazz and muthafakeez and in the mean time some great poetry



While lacto and lacto-ovo vegetarians have sources of vitamin B12 in their diets (from dairy products and eggs), vegans (total vegetarians) do not. Vegans who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 will eventually get anemia (a potentially fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage; most, if not all, vegans have impaired B12 metabolism and every study of vegan groups has demonstrated low vitamin B12 concentrations in the majority of individuals. Several studies have been done documenting B12 deficiencies in vegan children, often with dire consequences. Additionally, claims are made in vegan and vegetarian literature that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and Brewer's yeast. All of them are false as vitamin B12 is only found in animal foods. Brewer's and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 naturally; they are always fortified from an outside source.

There is no real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues--they are similar to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this they are not bioavailable. It should be noted here that these B12 analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body due to competitive absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume lots of soy, algae, and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency.

Some vegetarian authorities claim that B12 is produced by certain fermenting bacteria in the lower intestines. This may be true, but it is in a form unusable by the body. B12 requires intrinsic factor from the stomach for proper absorption in the ileum. Since the bacterial product does not have intrinsic factor bound to it, it cannot be absorbed.

It is true that Hindu vegans living in certain parts of India do not suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency. This has led some to conclude that plant foods do provide this vitamin. This conclusion, however, is erroneous as many small insects, their feces, eggs, larvae and/or residue, are left on the plant foods these people consume, due to non-use of pesticides and inefficient cleaning methods. This is how these people obtain their vitamin B12. This contention is borne out by the fact that when vegan Indian Hindus later migrated to England, they came down with megaloblastic anaemia within a few years. In England, the food supply is cleaner, and insect residues are completely removed from plant foods.

The only reliable and absorbable sources of vitamin B12 are animal products, especially organ meats and eggs. Though present in lesser amounts than meat and eggs, dairy products do contain B12. Vegans, therefore, should consider adding dairy products into their diets. If dairy cannot be tolerated, eggs, preferably from free-run hens, are a virtual necessity if they do not supplement with this vitamin.

That vitamin B12 can only be obtained from animal foods is one of the strongest arguments against veganism being a "natural" way of human eating. Today, vegans can avoid anemia by taking supplemental vitamins or fortified foods. If those same people had lived just a few decades ago, when these products were unavailable, they would have died.

B12 is stored in the body and deficiency symptoms do not show up sometimes for years after not consuming any. One example was Johnny Lovewisdom, an advocate in the 60's and 70's of a fruitarian diet. He moved to Vilcabamba, Ecuador to pursue his idyllic, Garden of Eden dream. Eventually, after pursuing his dietary ideals for years his health declined and he lost his vision. He resorted to eating potatoes and clabber but it was too late and he died.

So, if you are strict vegan just take some supplemental B12. That's all I'm saying.

hi tucson and moon,

Yes about Swami Ji. Missionarys
in India, reported Swami Ji's disciples
drank his urine and ate his poop.

It was also reported Swami Ji's
body was eaten after death. I assume
the ashes.

This is documented, but I didn't write it
in my book.

I am not vegan altough i love what water or juice
fast do to me but my diet is of raw greens, vegetables, fruits, seeds, nuts, raw milk,cottage cheese,kefir, yoghurt,ghee,young cheese buckwheat,millet,brown basmati,quinoa,bee pollen,honey,shilajit,red beans,raw butter and a few other things,i dont eat tofu anymore from soy i only consume tamari cause i cant stand tenpeh... and so... oh yes and i dont complicate when i go to birthsdayparties i just tell if anybody asks what i dont eat and there i usually stop my debate about food, i also gave eggs to my two toddlers and one doesnt want to eat them and one does sometimes and one tried a little meat but he said it is not good and sons also enjoy all sweets and cakes everywhete we go and at home after a few years of deep meditation i honestly asked my self to burn any personal dogma,, so i tried tobbaco, dark beer, eggs and some marihuana, but none of this stuff will stay with me cause i dont need them anymore, i am curently on green juices and weight lifting i do enemas and i healed many things which are remarcable,,, so this was my honest review of my diet and i have respect to what others do or eat or pray or meditate, moon

Hi Mike,

Drinking his urine and eating his poop? Makes the toe sucking seem conservative by comparison. I wonder if any lucky devotees in Gurinder's inner circle get to suck his toe and consume his bodily waste. Prashad of the highest order?


I think your diet is a good one. I'm with you on tofu. My body rejects tofu as a foreign invader. Deceptively hard to digest and assimilate. There is a tofu ice cream in The U.S. called "Tofuti". For me that stuff acts as a poison.

Shiv Dayal is actually an interesting topic.

Swedenborg in the late 1700's wrote the volumes
of what was to become the standard
for Radhasoami's. Freemasons, Mormons, Jehovah's
Witnesses, Christian Scientists,
7th Day Adventists
(vegetarian Christians).

Salig Ram, founder of RS Faith, had
for a historical fact, the complete
of Swedenborg in his bookcase.

Swedenborg was the most influential occultist of all time. Many USA religions and cults came from his teachings.

He opened the gates to channeling demons
and angels.

He said of his channeling these forces
were deceivers and liars and made things up.

Freud said they are real and Jung actually
expounded on these unconscious forces.

By the way, I discovered vegetarian cheese
at Walmart Supermarket today. I made two grilled cheese sandwiches with mustard and
they were great. Fantastic with Fritos.

Praise Shiv.

Cont. from above post.

Salig Ram, founder of RS Faith, was
an incredibly intelligent man, as were
the entire lineage of Agra Gurus, whom
were higly educated.

I like Salig Ram because he took the
5 name mantra and discared it. Why ?

Because as Shiv said, the first 4 are
of Satan's region.

Salig Ram recognised from Swedenborg
the importance of not summoning Kal

Salig Ram took Sat Nam up to Radhasoami.The old Sikhs such as Yogananda's group use
Sat Lok as highest.

Although Agra says Swami Ji was aware of
Radhasoami Pad when Salig Ram discovered it,
it is difficult to believe.

Salig Ram was the major force, not Swami
Ji. Salig Ram wrote the entire Radhasoami
faith books and Jaimal attended his satsangs
until Salig Ram threw him out. Later, Misra
also thew him out.

Swedenborg wrote the initiations the Freemasons, Mormons and many other cults adopted. The first Mormon leaders were all
high degree Masons. The Jehovah's Witnesses
were also founded by Freemasons.

All goes back to Swedenborg. Radhasoami
has some very strange bedfellows.

If you think you are smarter then a Jehovah
Witness, think again.

If it wasn't for Salig Ram and the new
Radhasoami region you people would be no
different from a bunch of Holly Rollers.

Note. Jaimal called Beas Radhasoami Beas.
Not Sat Nam Beas. Jaimal clearly adopted Salig Ram's new faith.

Radhasoami was indeed a new faith.

"Radhasoami was indeed a new faith."

--But faith it is. You either have it or you don't.

What people need is something to believe in that they don't have to believe in.

"What people need is something to believe in that they don't have to believe in."
quote tucson

Yes tucson, they need Something Else.

Everbody tries to explain others that he & his guru is right. The start of this blog's words are taken from new saint in haryana. He is trying to say that he is himself lord kabir & all other saints are not true. As everyone might be aware that there are only few sects which are very popular. Criticizing them will automatically helps them to gather more numbers.....
Sick with these minds & projection of himself as god...is the best business now a days.

Singing of contemporary songs by my master is directed towards love for the shabad and the master, the lyrics of the song add love to the spiritual being. It is the film Industry which takes the love out of context and they have started using all spiritual and sufi lyrics to depict love and lust between man and woman. So if there is love, love triumphs over everything. That state of divine intoxiacation and ecstasy is only the hallmark of a fully realized saint. Saints often come to the person's level to explain the basics of spirituality.
Beings that are gripped by ego often fail to realise the truth and do hairsplitting on trivial matters.

Master Sawan said that when a param sant satguru takes birth into a human form then Kal does so at the same time. Rai Saligram created his own line and there was a breakaway group from Soami Ji, so go figure..

S M Dass quotes a lot from Nanak. I would think that this Dass fellow is a sikh and as we know they are very anti Sant Mat.

I think all saints,including all those mentioned in this discussion, talked about anhad naad or waang-e-arash, which one has to listen and nothing has to be recited or meditated upon..which missing in this conversation

This article is so ridiculous, I don't know where to start lol

You people are losers !get a life ,you are just spreading rumours nothing else? Do read sar vachan , stop faking people ! Do u think people are fools ? Even jesus was hanged to death because that time too there were people like you ! Please be a good man because it is written in every religious book "we are no one to judge anyone" bloody fakers

Why can't we read Harry Potter and believe Hogwarts is real?

Your blog post is an idiotic comment on whole philosophy of yoga.

Surat Shabd yoga is a branch of Yoga. Do you know about kundalini yoga? or any other spiritual yoga to awaken the insight? Don't go into the books you read. No one needs a Guru if he has a will. This is the first principle of Hath Yoga. Did Meeera Bai has a Guru?

Self realization can be attained by below three -

1. Bhakti Yoga (Needs a intiating soul/ deity or guru)
2. Hath Yoga
3. Pran Yoga (Using Asanas and Mudraas)

and Last thing.. These things has written by so many authors like Kabir, Tulsi and 10th Patshaah ji. But those who gets indulged in finding the literal meanings of words. Gets no meanings out of it. They just get confused and makes other confused.

Only simple rule here is to follow the thing with complete belief. Thats is hath yoga. When you do this and gets kundalini activated. The protector souls come and takes care of you and makes way for you to forget the physical universe.

Shiv Dayal ji was believer of TulsiDas ji. Even at age Tulsi Das ji intiated him. And yes, five or 7 or 2 words doesnt matter. These words may increase in future. Main course includes the selfless dedication to recall the protecting spirit after getting self realization. Words doesnt matter. What you recall in your dhyan is what you get.

Thanks for your nonsense.


Hello author of this post.

Thank you for the info you shared. It shed some more light in my life. I must add that the one and only way to confirm what the true names resonating in the spiritual regions are is to go and find out by one self... with the permission of God/Sat Guru of course.

Before we reach those regions it doesn't really matter what people claim those names are if we haven't heard them ourselves. After we have reached those regions and have heard the names ourselves it still doesn't matter what people claim those name are or are not.

As the masters have told us, we should not believe anyone, not even themselves. We should go and find out by ourselves. =)

Having said that I have to than you, again for your post. It enlighten more areas in my life.

May you enjoy lots of success in your spiritual journey =)

SN =)

@A Soul

Go to the wiki page for self-hypnosis and read the 4 steps. Don't they look familiar...

The phase of 1200 AD on wards and specially the period 1817 on wards India was the seat of complete mayhem when the original population was wiped out, original faith was being rid of its lat of traces, all original sects\temples\Brahmans etc were murdered or cleaned! During that time, many opportunists opened their shops to do what they desired in their darkest lust! So, frankly whatever was present then or was cooked was not pure or original it was just fake to garner prominence and acquire lust! This so called saint establishes that!
What does a westerner wish to find at a place like that? Why were you here and when?
India is devoid of its true past and the treasure it had...it is somewhere alright but not to public access! Its long gone! Some of your observations are correct and we must appreciate! Could you tell more about your research about this organisation and few others like this?

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.


Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.