With permission, I'm sharing an email that I got from an American of Indian heritage who is outraged at how "brown" people are treated when they go to the headquarters of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) in Beas, India.
I've been to Beas twice, also called the Dera.
RSSB is a spiritual organization which talks a lot about oneness, humility, love, and such, but I have to agree with this person: there's a lot of hierarchical inequality in RSSB which can look like racism (and maybe it is). Westerners are treated much differently from Indians, getting special treatment and access to the guru.
Anyway, here's thoughts on this subject from my email correspondent. I've added some explanatory definitions [in brackets] after words that will be unfamiliar to many readers.
Hello Brian, just wanted to say how much I appreciate your blog being up there for people who finally snap out of their haze and realize that RS Satsang is a cult. Took me 30 years to realize that.
I just found out from someone that "White people" in Dera [RSSB headquarters in Punjab, India] are told they are not supposed to talk to Indians in the Dera.
This along with the fact that Indians have to give in all their electronics whereas white people can keep them, and white people have a special Christmas party with Mr. Gurinder Singh [guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas] and Indians are not allowed unless married to a white person.
Have you heard of any of this? I'd love to see it addressed on your blog.
I think people need to know about the ridiculous inconsistencies that happen in Dera. My favorite part, when you point out an inconsistency, is when someone responds back, "Well it's the sevadars [volunteers], not the Master. He is unaware of what's going on." What a joke! He is the HEAD of what's happening!
I myself stopped going to satsang [devotional meetings] about 3 years ago, but my entire family still goes so I still hear a lot about what's going on.
I was born and raised in America, and I remember visiting Beas for the first time at the age of 13, and finding out upon arrival that our family had to stay in the "Indian Hostel". My first reaction was WHAT THE ##$%?? I was outraged.
Born, raised and brought up in America... I was a full blown American and I was going to have to stay in a hostel that had amenities for an Indian lifestyle when I myself was American, but my skin was brown?! And because of the color of my skin I was unable to stay in a place with American lifestyle amenities?
Wow. That was truly racism at it's finest. I'll never forget that as my first impression of Beas.
But what did I know, right? I was just a little kid and I didn't understand the true meaning of the teachings, and Babaji [Gurinder Singh, the guru] was just trying to "accommodate" the foreigners. Hhhrmph! Well why wasn't he accommodating me? Didn't I need the same pandering as other people from America?
30 years later, now of course I see a whole different picture. My question today would be, why on earth are you treating some people one way, and other people another way? Aren't we all supposedly supposed to be equal in the eyes of Sant Mat? What a joke.
I feel ill when I see old people, blind, hobbling and unable to walk getting yelled at and being told to sit on the ground, when perfectly capable, healthy young people are given cushions and chairs and a seat up front. Oh but wait! Babaji is all knowing, so they must just be fulfilling their karmas right? Being punished for a past life?
And yes, I had heard that a very special private Christmas party gets put on every year for all the Westerners. They laugh, dance, sing and joke with Babaji. It's a "great time" to get up close and personal and see the "master" acting normal.
I also heard that if a brown person is married to a white person then and only then can a brown person gain entry into this party. Scoff Scoff Scoff Scoff! I am now married to a white person and can easily gain access to this party, but pigs would have to fly before I ever even consider participating in something as hypocritically ridiculous as this.
I feel so crass using the words white and brown to describe people, but what can I do? If I have to talk about Sant Mat those are the descriptors I have to use because that is how they set the bar for treating people.
I see people as people. Humans. Sant Mat classifies them into categories from "VIP's" to "They Don't Matter". White, Brown, Black, money, property, usefulness. It appears that who you are and how you're classified will decide the fate of how you are treated in the Dera and in the cult.
I heard that Westerners (translated as "White people", because how could someone of color born and raised in another country be considered a Westerner?) were told not to talk to Indians while at the Dera.
So let me get this straight. Jim Jones and Punjabi Singh both attend satsang every Sunday in America or England or Australia and have fun, laugh and even meet up for lunch... but when they arrive in Dera, Jim Jones is told not to talk to Punjabi Singh because he is Indian and it is "Master's orders"? Does that make sense in any way shape or form?
Mr. Gurinder Singh has all the latest toys, wears the best brand names, flies in his own private jet, owns stocks in Religare and made his own sons Billionaires through that. I am not saying it's wrong to want or have those things but don't you think it's just the tiniest bit hypocritical for a supposed Master and messenger of God who PREACHES simplicity and asceticism to not follow those rules himself?
I'm not saying... but Just saying.
Okay, we get the message: RS is BS
Posted by: cc | February 15, 2012 at 08:32 AM
cc wrote: "Okay, we get the message: RS is BS"
--Yes, RS was pretty much hung out to dry on this blog years ago by numerous articulate and informed critics who have come and gone, but the reason the discussion continues is that the blog host and others who frequent here were involved, or are still involved, and have an enduring interest or curiosity in the subject. Also, new people interested in RSSB come to the blog who haven't heard it all before.
I haven't played tennis in many years, but I still enjoy watching a match once in awile.
Posted by: tucson | February 15, 2012 at 11:04 AM
Thank you tucson, couldn't have said it better. I have left RSSB years ago, but the emotional brainwashing effects of it still linger. I appreciate the posts on this site (even if they seem repetitive to others) till today because it helps me feel validated and work thru the emotions I still have. I think as the years have gone on more truths about RSSB have come out, and more people are willing to see and talk about it. This is very important for people still stuck, and for helping those people who are in the process of trying to question and quit. As more people speak out, more brainwashed followers will get a chance to hear the TRUTH, and not the "SPIRITUAL TRUTH" they are told is real. RSSB did not teach spirituality as much as it taught people to give up their own god given power and self worth. Their 'teachings' basically imply that you just as you are, are not worthy of knowing and understanding spirituality. There are 'rules' you must follow and a 'teacher' you have to listen to as if you are in Kindergarten. That basically you are idiots who dared to make desire in this world (that Supreme Being supposedly allowed Kal to create)and got confused, created karmas unknowingly and now have to pay for them. All thanks to your kindergarten mentality that now Master has to fix by keeping you under his control and giving you fixed rules. Which gives you no room for your own feelings and thoughts whatsoever. Makes you wonder what use was the creation of being 'Human' if we could not use its faculites?? It is told that humans have the 'ether' conscious to be able to discriminate. But seems all RSSB wants you to discriminate is that they are the only path to follow, and any other use of that 'ether' is useless and dangerous???
Posted by: NC | February 15, 2012 at 11:41 AM
Having once been a RSSB follower, I fully support and agree with what NC said above.
Posted by: tucson | February 15, 2012 at 04:24 PM
Okay, I get it, I'm converted. Down with RSSB!
Posted by: cc | February 16, 2012 at 08:31 AM
I can see having a beef with people who led me on and took advantage of my willingness to believe their baloney, but I have to acknowledge the desperate need for something to believe in that made their chicanery practicable. As long as there are those willing and eager to follow, there will be those willing and eager to lead.
Posted by: cc | February 16, 2012 at 10:16 AM
CC, it's true, as long as there are people who want to follow something, there will be a leader willing to take that place. But I still don't think that is reason enough not to speak up against the charade. If people are in a desparate need to believe something, and it causes them to be taken advantage of, doesn't mean to just sit quiet and let it keep happening! Why don't we go out and advocate to all the domestic abuse support groups out there to just close up shop because the abused ones have a desperate and confused need of love and the abusive spouse is willing and eager to provide that need as the leader of that confused state of mind. So, let's just let those families continue the cycle of abuse for generations to come. Because we wouldn't want to bore the rest of us non-abused humans who find all this sooooo repetitive. Why do you even come to this site if RSSB being bad is so blah to you??
Posted by: NC | February 16, 2012 at 01:09 PM
If a person appears East Indian, they can follow the guru around in India undetected. If one does not look East Indian, they will be spotted and escorted out. This happened to friend(s) of mine so I know it to be true. Non-Asian looking peoples are literally thrown out of the guru’s satsang if they show up anywhere except the designated places they've been specifically invited, usually Bombay and another place near Delhi, I forget the name.
An Asian person with relatives in India can stay with them, or house themselves in a nearby town, and go to the Dera everyday as long as they want to or can. Nobody will stop them at the gate, as they do not appear white, oriental or African. Many non-Asians want to stay 6 months and attend satsangs, but are they are told not to do that, and not to follow the guru around India. They can be thrown out if they show up. A person from Uganda, China, Australia, for example, can not stay anywhere but Dera’s Hostel 6. Many non-Asian devotees would be delighted to have the darshan of the guru as often as they could and therefore would gladly trade their Hostel 6 privileges for more open-ended Asian privileges, i.e., follow the guru throughout India, and also attend every satsang at the Dera if he is on the dias. They do not want to sit up front, but just be there.
Hostel 6 at Dera has people hailing from Africa, and many from the Orient, too. These non-white folks must follow all the same rules as white folks. There are also many African- Americans as well as other people of African heritage from all parts of the world that come and are housed in Hostel 6. It is not a matter of color, but a matter, I’d guess, of the indigenous Indian/Asian culture and who hails from that and who does not.
I have found the Indian/Asian sangat delightful and polite, but my experience has been that they primarily keep to themselves. This is undoubtedly due to a shared heritage, language, etc. At Petaluma, for example, nobody is avoiding, but nobody goes out of their way to include people out of their cultural pool. This is not to say anybody is unfriendly or trying to exclude anybody, it just does not seem to naturally happen.
Posted by: just there | February 16, 2012 at 03:26 PM
A RSSBer pal of mine sang this to Gurinder at one of those parties...I think he wus talkin bout meditation...lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYr7I4gOSXk&feature=fvwrel
or was it this one..actually might have been..pretty seriously devoted guy though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fa4HUiFJ6c
Posted by: Dogribb | February 16, 2012 at 08:24 PM
Sects are so idilic and beautifull untill they have to get money. Than it turns out that these colorful and soft people have to develop very low traits. Some sects are known to send their members for steeling. Others for begging. Some for prostitution. All these members have to do hard sewa in the first place until that is not enough... Rich western people are treated different of course. They have to provide the money.
Why does Gurinder not contact Randi and collects the million he has for the first person that demonstrates a clear paranormal power? O no wait than Kal gets angry because all humans would want to escape if he demonstrates a super natural power. But think of that clear scientific demonstration of one power wouldn't that be great? I think Jezus would try to get Randi's million and I'm afraid he would fail under clear monitored scientific conditions. Like all do. The other day I saw a famous psychic fail the test with an absolutely random score under clean observation. Why does that always happen. Why do these guys need unclear environments with strong believers to perform? Why...do we need to believe in them?
Posted by: nietzsche | February 17, 2012 at 02:56 AM
"Why don't we go out and advocate to all the domestic abuse support groups out there to just close up shop because the abused ones have a desperate and confused need of love and the abusive spouse is willing and eager to provide that need as the leader of that confused state of mind."
I'm not advocating NOT exposing the RS BS; I'm suggesting that there may be a more effective means of doing so than making it a recurring topic in this blog. Why not start a site that exposes the religion's offenses on an ongoing basis?
Posted by: cc | February 17, 2012 at 08:37 AM
While I understand cc's point of view, I think it is appropriate for RS to be a recurring topic on this blog because it continues to be of interest to many who frequent here and the blog host does inject variety with other topics all the time.
I have noticed that some of the longest comment threads here over the years have been in response to RS posts.
Not every song on the radio is one you like.
Posted by: tucson | February 17, 2012 at 08:53 AM
"Not every song on the radio is one you like."
True, but when the song I don't like is played more persistently than any other song...
Posted by: cc | February 17, 2012 at 05:04 PM
"True, but when the song I don't like is played more persistently than any other song..."
--That's what I'd do.
Posted by: tucson | February 18, 2012 at 05:30 PM
Was a Satsangi for about 10 years and left RS about 15 years ago.
Looking back, i can't believe how much hypocritical discrimination and caste system reinforcement I overlooked from being glazed over.
For a philosophy that professes to transcend ritual, caste, status etc....
it's almost hilarious that the entire organization is structured around rituals and caste designations.
Access to the Guru (thru small gatherings, proximity in seating arrangements, on and on) is entirely based on one's capacity to donate or for imagery.
In truth, they need legions of the 'unwashed masses' they re-inforce the low caste stigmas, because they provide a huge compliant cheap or practically free(sewa) labor force with no expectations for a better life (it's all for the afterlife for everyone else but Gurinder et al who well enjoys the spoils now) for tens of thousands of agricultural acres, construction, etc which they make huge fortune.
I can't think of another prominent cult as racist and caste structured as this one, being feudal landlords on a gigantic scale.
It is truly a feudal system.
They have been very profitable on the backs of the low castes. You may want to check archives on this site for accounts of the systematic land grabs, inheritance grabs and the tyrannical feudal structure they employ to keep such a compliant work force.
Posted by: Ping | February 19, 2012 at 01:23 PM
Dear All
I do not know what should i write here about all what have been shared here. But one thing i would like to share that it is the EXPERIENCE that matters not knowledge. Whosoever shared whatsoever that is his knowledge not experience. when student(disciple) does not as instructed by teacher(Master), then student starts blaming the teacher as what is being done here. It is VERY UNFORTUNATE that it is the MIND that has forced you to think like this and you are thinking. it is HIS will that we are here and alive and at any point of time we will have to move from this materialistic world.
when we do journey by BUS/CAR/FLIGHT/TRAIN, it is always assumed that we trust DRIVER, in the very same way, we will have to trust MASTER (GURU) in this spiritual journey.
If you have left RSSB, no prob means it is your mind who won and your soul got defeat because soul has been made away from its source.
you be what you want to be.... and whatever is happening at DERA, it is happening bcoz of some reasons and as per HIS Will same in this universe. if something happened wrong in your opinion at dera, then you left dera..thats good.
But if something is happening wrong in the world (Rape,theft,disease,accidents,deaths), Will you leave this world and will blame GOD.....thats wrong.
Bcoz if GOD is the creator and omnipresent, omnipotent and knower of everything, and he is capable of making change, still evreything is happening, GOD can never be wrong.
We need to go at his will.
so in the same way, when we call overselves as devotee then we need to devote ourselves(mind, body,money and everything) to HIM.
means you were not devotee, you were just follower, thats y u left that...
bye
Posted by: shammi wadhwa | February 21, 2012 at 10:17 PM
shammi, what if you're on a bus, car, or whatever, and the driver is heading toward a cliff? Or he's drunk, passed out, driving crazily? Or you've gotten on the vehicle, sat there for a REALLY long time, and it isn't taking you to where you want to go?
Doesn't it make sense to get off and either find another driver, or drive yourself?
Posted by: Brian Hines | February 21, 2012 at 10:34 PM
The same applies with the Science of Spirituality clan.
Different treatment of native Indians.
Special VIP gatherings for westerners.
And there is more:
Super luxury cars for ugly dog Rajinder singh parked inside the Ashrams for master's transportation and glamour(donated? by rich guys in India). Glamour and special effects where? In starving India!
The answer to the question:
"Where's is the master, we traveled to India to meet him or to speak to him in person?"
is
"The master has meetings with big names in Delhi or has visited big rich houses to speak in high society parties"
Get lost punk. So we traveled to India and spend lots of money and energy in order to be banned.I mean not to be able to speak to him personally.
It's a disgrace for a supposed living Jesus Christ. Isn't it?
Be free - Be strong - Be your own Master.
You fucking deserve it.
Posted by: Pythagoras | February 22, 2012 at 06:21 AM
Brian, you ought to start a blog devoted to RSSB and it's devotees, past and present. There's a lot about this cult that needs to be exposed...with emphasis on the idiocy of those who enable the jerks at the top.
Posted by: cc | February 22, 2012 at 03:49 PM
Dear Shammi
I am laughing so hard right now. I would like to personally thank you for posting your response because it is a perfect display of all the brainwashing and B.S. that is fed to the people who follow RSSB. Seriously. Classic. You just validated everyone on this site.
Thanks!
Posted by: Sally | February 23, 2012 at 08:56 AM
Just There:
I think you completely misunderstood the entire point of this post. You think that this is about Race against Race. Brown VS. White. Please read the post again carefully.
This is about Racism from the Organization..... Not about how Petaluma Punjabi Satsangis treat you as a white person, Or how White people are banned by other Indians in India.
Don't you see? Your email completely proved the the blogger's point! You also validated everything that was said, because you gave multiple examples of racism that occur from the Organization.
Posted by: Sally | February 23, 2012 at 09:03 AM
Shammi,
What are you even doing on this website?? Shouldn't DEVOTEES such as yourself be meditating instead? aren't you indulging your MIND by being on this website? Shame, Shame, now you will have to meditate extra tonight to take off this karma of indulging in a desire and doing Master's job of convincing ex-satsangis to come back. Trival worldy issues such as convicing people on this site, is NOT your job. YOur job as a devotee of Gurinder Singh, is to have no opinion, be inferior, block your critical thinking faculties, and become HIS mindless robot.
Posted by: NC | February 23, 2012 at 09:41 AM
I believe in liberating others from their beliefs.
Posted by: cc | February 24, 2012 at 09:47 AM
hello i am a satangi from taiwan.
i try to read your blog and try to read hard.
i understand...this kind of feeling.
but i want to say...
friend ... you need to meditation.
our mind always more and more talk .. think .. find something.
try find babaji inside.. we will understand what he do.
sincerely
pan
Posted by: pan | March 03, 2012 at 09:44 PM
I have read the writings of the RSSB Gurus and I believe that the original Gurus had some light but not all light. From what I have read in ancient philosophy there is a plane of pure light. This happens when the one, undivided, unmanifest supreme consciousness manifests itself in time and space. There begins duality. The Yin/Yan or light/dark. The Hindu sage Adi Sankara experienced this state of luminously and thought it to be the final and his impact gave a wrong turn to Indian spirituality since. The philosopher Aurobindo pointed out this error in Indian thought: 'Ancient India with its ideal of vast riches and vast spending was the greatest of nations; modern India with its trend towards national asceticism has finally become poor in life and sunk into weakness and degradation.'
RSSB philsophy is simply a continuation of this. RSSB philosophy is a limited truth and not a whole truth. And most gaps in their philosophy is filled up mental reasoning rather than by spiritual illumination. For example the concept of a living Guru is purely a mental creation. It was harmless until this Guru took over. I was shocked to hear he owns 150 million dollars worth shares in Religare! Now this organization is indeed harmful and needs to be exposed.
Posted by: GM | March 14, 2012 at 06:55 PM
Pan:
Meditating is just another fantasy like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny or Magic Wands.... It's not gonna do anything for you but make you a hermit with no self responsibility. All people posting here think that RS is a bunch of BS and meditation on the name of a businessman who claims to be god is laughable.
Posted by: Sally | June 07, 2012 at 04:54 PM
Today, I tried to get back into the building to use the mens room which was 10 metres away. but I got bullied pushed and shoved by the sevadars and told to use the toilets outside which was 200 metres away! Real peaceful helpers practicing common sense...not!
Posted by: Ajarorfvegemite Formiandad | July 15, 2012 at 01:46 AM
10 OR 30 YRS IN A MEDITATION SYSTEM WITH NO EVIDENCE OF PROGRESS? YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! WHAT KIND OF SPELL IS THAT? SHOULD HAVE PEEPED THAT IN THE FIRST QUARTER! "THE SPELL OF KINGU!" IS FOR ALL THAT BELIEVE! "BE-LIE-TO-EVES' SEED................ THATS NO DIFFERENT THAT WAITING ON JESUS TO RETURN, BUT ATLEAST YOU CAN EAT A RIBB DINNER AND DRANK A 40........:-)
Posted by: BISHOP SPELLBREAKER | July 15, 2012 at 11:54 PM
I know this may sound naive here...but one reason why there maybe a degree of segration is that the guru realizes that Westerners have come many miles away to see him. Thus, there is some "preferrential" treatment for them unlike the native Indians who could go, and visit him anytime...especially if they live close by ofcourse!! But maybe things have changed somewhat!!
Posted by: Robert Searle | July 16, 2012 at 06:02 AM
Pan said: "Meditating is just another fantasy like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny or Magic Wands.... It's not gonna do anything for you but make you a hermit with no self responsibility. "
Lol, clearly you hav'nt a clue about what your talking about! There's different kinds of meditation and some are more effective than others. I've practiced zen for a number of years and it's totally transformed my life. Problems usually arise only when your meditation practice is connected to an un-realsitic cult philosophy of some sort. As for it's benefits, they include everything from stress reduction to enhancing the body's immune system!
Posted by: frankinnc | September 01, 2012 at 01:54 PM
I agree. I went to Dera during the early 1980's and yes, I definitely noted the special treatment that the westerners received and actually my entire family, which includes a very accomplished and well known orthopedic surgeon,and several other American born Indian family members noticed it too. There were special satsangs only for the whites! I was only able to attend because my ex was blonde and blue eyed! The fellows working there were impressed because I was with this tall swede! I even got to sit a few feet away from Charan Singh ji, mainly because of my ex, poor guy, he was a bit amazed too. The Indians sat on "dhurries" while the westerners got to sit in oh ahem, chairs! Well, guess because most westerners those days couldn't sit cross legged for long.
It was clear that westerners were being favored. Maybe it was just a hospitality thing? Be nice to the foreigners?
Posted by: Janya Barrish | September 01, 2012 at 03:58 PM
Love to Know
What do they do at the Christmas parties? No liquor? no meat? Any dancing? What type of music? Shabad, bhajans or? Is Mr. Gurinder's wife present? Or his Jat Punjabi relatives? Does he Cha Cha?
Love to Know
Does he meditate 2 1/2 hours a day?
Its Bloody Sick.
Posted by: Janya Barrish | September 01, 2012 at 04:44 PM
Correction:
I said, "There were special satsangs only for the whites!" I meant to say Westerners. Maybe those days, during the 80's the disciples were mainly Caucasians, unlike now, where, I am led to understand that there are foreign disciples who are of other other skin tones as well.
Posted by: Janya Barrish | September 01, 2012 at 05:43 PM
Most of the concepts and terms used in Radha Soami Beas group are taken from the Guru Granth Sahib, a revelation that Guru Nanak spoke, regarding the WORD/Naam.
The Guru is God idea also comes from what Guru Nanak said. But Sikhs only believe in their own 10 Gurus, Guru Nanak according to some accounts being absorbed into the next Guru and so on and so forth so that that the 10th Guru was also Guru Nanak. After the last Sikh Guru, the Guru Granth Sahib (the Sikh holy book )itself is the only Guru that Sikhs are to acknowledge. To call yourself a Guru, in the Sikh system is terribly wrong. The Guru Granth Sahib is a beautiful revelation and worth reading in that Guru Nanak's relationship to GOD, the WORD/NAAM is most beautifully described.
So, many Sikhs claim that Radha Saomi Gurus have no right to use the terms from their religion because these terms and concepts were meant for and applicable to only their own 10 Gurus.
Sikhs please correct me if I am wrong.
Posted by: Janya Barrish | September 01, 2012 at 06:21 PM
GM,
National Asceticism? HA ha- Its the elites zipping of their black money to places like Luxemborg and investing in multi million dollar office buildings in foreign lands and multi-national corporations plundering India all in collusion with the Government and Internationalists. I call it the second wave of economic Imperialism, Goldman Sachs is a good example. The only deprivation is the one practiced by the Government towards the regular everyday Indians. Over the past few decades, India has had a surplus in food production but the people starve because mountains of grain are allowed to rot in order to keep price levels high or to be sold at higher prices.
" The Hindu sage Adi Sankara experienced this state of luminously and thought it to be the final and his impact gave a wrong turn to Indian spirituality since."
A very debatable point, especially in light (no pun meant) of the preexisting Vedas.
Posted by: Janya Barrish | September 03, 2012 at 05:08 PM
Dear janya,
Your economics is superb. You and I and Tao
have lots in common !!!!
http://thelibertymill.com/
Posted by: Mike Williams | September 03, 2012 at 07:02 PM
I will never forget the face of a poor old woman that I made eye to eye contact with every day, for years, on my way to school while I was growing up in India. To this day, anytime I look at an old tree with large gnarly roots grasping the Earth, I am reminded of her beautiful, kind, deep brown furrowed face, resigned but full of love. This is an amazing fact about India, despite the abject poverty, there is love in their eyes and even a smile for you. I remember how shocked and guilty I used to feel when I came across such scenes of deprivation.
I recall several such incidents where I stood accused; one of them happened as I was coming out of a restaurant after having consumed a particularly fulfilling meal, extra banana in hand. A 5 or 6 year old girl, with dirt smudges on her face, raggedy hair, beautiful innocent face and torn clothes, looking hungry; a beggar, asked me for the banana. I handed it to her. Expecting her to eat it immediately, I was tearfully humbled as I watched her run across the street and share the banana with 2 or 3 other siblings even younger than her for whom she was obviously the caretaker.
I often made promises to myself that when I could I would do something about the shocking elitism and the condition of the poor in India. I have failed. So, it especially upsets me when I read comments on the internet condemning India and its people, especially the poor. The poor are not at fault.
Posted by: Janya Barrish | September 03, 2012 at 08:30 PM
Why is everybody so bitter about everything? This site is a real downer. I think this RSSB cult is probably better off without you guys. Cheer up - slug a double scotch and say something that can be substantiated or verified.
Is it possible that the 3,000,000 members of this cult are all morons and that not one amongst them has investigated all of these problems? Are there no lawyers, accountants or stockbrobers amongst their nunmber?? Or are they all a bunch of morons or perhaps even a bunch of saints??
When an organisation is slated by disgruntled past adherants most intelligent people will usually ignore their charges as being sour grapes.
Posted by: Gary Gordon | January 26, 2013 at 08:20 PM
Gary,
Anything and everything is possible in India, but you can only know that either by living in India for a few years or by doing some serious research about it.
A majority of the 3,000,000 you mentioned are very poor people, and normally don't think beyond what is required to earn a livelihood. Yes, there are lawyers, accountants, stockbrobers, doctors, engineers and many more types of professionals. I believe, they are not morons, and certainly not saints. IMO, those highly educated and "most intelligent" (to use your words) current adherents can be divided into a few categories. I can think of the following two just off the top of my head:
1. Those who believe (because they have been conditioned to believe that way) that spirituality - and that includes questioning the deeds of the spiritual leader or "Guru" - is beyond logic and intellect. So, whenever their mind does raise a question, they prefer to stop the mind by saying to themselves (and even others!)"[It is] His (GIHF) will / we are not capable to understand / He (GIHF) knows best" (in Tara's words who is a prominent blogger here).
2. The other category comprises of those who do have their doubts and they also believe (at least somewhat) in their doubts, but still prefer to remain "loyal adherents" because (i) they have been given "high positions" within the organization and enjoy the power that comes with the positions (ii) over a period of time, their whole social network is comprised mainly of the people within the organization, and they simply can't afford to abandon all that.
I do believe more categories exist, and perhaps some other bloggers can help me here.
Posted by: Avi | April 03, 2013 at 07:18 PM
Gary, Gary, Gary...Even highly educated people, people of elite academics, well read individuals make bad choices....some have even committed crimes such that range in the spectrum of petty theft to murder. Insanity is free for all to subscribe to irrespective of learning; as is blind faith. EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING on this planet has a fantasy that can be played to. Life can be so stressful that the masses will flock to those that can offer them something powerful to believe in...vague words full of promise, dreamlike positivity over rational thinking...combine this with some sort of ritual that draws upon knowledge of the past and new thinking and you have the recipe of a truly powerful cult....even overworked, stressed, insecure, curious doctors, accountants, stoke-brokers e.t.c. want access to something which promises to be more powerful than any force known to man.
Posted by: the9thGate | April 04, 2013 at 01:51 PM
Hi Tara and Avi
Rightly so, I think, the sangat needs to be divided into the Eastern/Asian sangat (the vast majority)and the aging, Non- Asian Western sangat. Here is a conversation between
what remains of the aging, non-Asian, Western sangat over lunch after, say, a satsang weekend in Petaluma:
John: Say, whatever happened to Joey Macaroni from Tulsa that moved to LA that was so much in love with Charan?
Sheela: Oh, ya! I remember him. He went AWOL...sometime in the late 80's I think have not seen nor heard from him since. Haven't seen Nora Macaroni either come to think of it, nor Rebecca Peters, daughter of Joey and Nora who got initiated in 96. Hey whatever happend to Wildman Jones and Peter Quail and Flora Hanson?
John: Shit, I dunno. Hey whatever happened to Judy Lucus, Freda Mason, Rob Weiss and JoAnn Fabrisco?
Troy: Wow, man, how many ARE left of the old gang?
John: Ya and hardly any new faces at the Weekend, well, non-Asian that is.
Troy: Our sangat in Trin? Only one new initiate in the last five years.
John: Hey, Tim, do you do seva at Petaluma anymore.
Troy: Fruck that! I show up with all my welding tools and they told me they wanted me to plant flowers instead or mow Hooches lawn! I got a full schedule on tap at home, and it took me five hours to drive there to do some special seva they said they needed me for with my "special skills". Fruck that!
John: Hooch still lives there?
Troy: Ahhh shit, John, I dunno. I guess. Anyhow everybody there is Indian now. And they blabber Punjabi all day long to each other and do not include any pale face in their conversations. I was the only frucking while dude there all day. Fruck that man.
John: It is just your ego dude.
Tim: Really? Well fruck you John (laughing).
Posted by: loveDrAnn | April 04, 2013 at 02:14 PM
loveDrAnn...nicely done. Great comment. I haven't been at a RSSB gathering for many years, but from what I saw going on at the time (which must be exaggerated now) it sounds like you've hit the Truth Button right on.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 04, 2013 at 07:27 PM
Tara,
Thanks for extending the "classification". I really liked your naming of the categories. Please also try to name the two categories that I tried to describe, if possible!
the9thgate,
"Insanity is free for all to subscribe to irrespective of learning; as is blind faith."
I really enjoyed reading your very well articulated comments.
loveDrAnn,
I fully agree with that there are indeed fundamental differences between the Western and the Eastern/Asian (mainly Indian) followers/sangat. The attempted classification above is based upon my personal experience, observation and interaction with a variety of Indian followers. Although I have been living here in the U.S. for a few years now, so far, I have had literally zero face-to-face interaction with any Western satsangi. There was no chance for that interaction to happen while I was in India because of obvious reasons and probably because I had already lost faith in RSSB before coming to the U.S., I never tried to even find a center near my place of living.
I guess Tara's extension of the classification also mainly applies to Indians. I would guess that the Western satsangis have traditionally been more uniform in terms of financial and/or social status but would love to know if that's otherwise also.
Brian,
Thanks to your blog, now I do have at least some idea about how Western (ex??)satsangis think and feel about RSSB.
I must confess that even during Charan's time, while I was a pretty firm believer in the overall teaching and philosophy, I still had very strong views about the biased treatment of people based not only upon the color of their skin (discrimination between Westerners and Indians)but also their financial status (discrimination among Indians). In fact, I tried to bring up the issue for discussion on many occasions, but was silenced by the elders by way of illogical and irrational arguments that are well known to everyone now.
On a lighter note, when I read in one of the posts on this blog that "Religare" is the Latin word for "to reconnect, to bind together" which gave origin to the word religion, I found it ironic (and humorous). I will let others guess, why?
Posted by: Avi | April 04, 2013 at 09:59 PM
Hi Guys,
Great going. Very interesting discussion indeed. I have worked in the Dera Hospital for a few years, and am looking into both sides of the coin. I strongly agree with Brian, but also feel if we are doing an injustice to a given spiritual path. From a Sikh background, I know that Guru Teg Bahadur sacrificed his life for saving Hindu religion from islamist fanatics. Guru Gobind Singh sacrified his entire family, and then finished the lineage of living gurudom by replacing that with a holy granth as a guide and a guru. One thing that strikes me most is that the current gurus in India are more like designer gurus who are invariably rich, wear the best clothes, ride in best cars/planes, and have an enviable lefe-styles...The Sikh gurus on the other hand did not fear death and laid their lives for the sake of others. The current gurus have a zed security. If they are able to take care of millions of souls, then how come they are not able to take care of their own lives/destinies, and need gun trotting guards to save their souls. The other thing is that satsangis are not allowed to discuss their experiences. Now, could it be similar to the childhood parable- the emperor's new clothes--where it takes a child only to declare that the emperor was naked. Similarly, here, it has taken Brian to declare that he has got nothing out of santmat, but then there are others who fear to declare the the emperor was naked because they have been earlier admonished that only the impure ones cannot see the clothes..
Don't want to hurt anyones sentiments, but I feel that Truth has to be perceived openly and with all honesty. We cannot condone anyone who criticises a religious concept by saying that he is inferior. I think that mind/intellect are also God (or Nature, if you prefer) given traits which are used for betterment of life, or else there would have been no penicillin or a computer, or spectacles. I think that it is imperative to accept thatthat we all do exist, we all have no damn clue asto how and why we are here--, our thoughts, like urine, due to brain (instead of kidney) perfusion, a conglomeration of electrical impulses in the brain, geared by flow of oxygen and nutrients through several neuronal circuits. Nobody comes back after death to describe what modus operandi of spirituality is correct and to be followed, and because of this lack of a true post-death feed-back, we can keep on believing in and describing our individual concepts, and some people can assume the role of gurus who know it all...it is true that if we are meek, we are apt to fall into the trap. At the same time, it is difficult to say that if we do not follow the path of the masters, are we really going to miss the boat. I met a guy in dera who was the son of a don in Delhi, but got disgusted with everything, and gave up his entire wealth to his family/friends and became a renunciate. He never became a satsangi though as he was never convinced with the concept of accepting a human as a God. He spent some time with the Jain monks in some caves of Gujarat, and after about a month of time spent with them, the Jain monks told him that they would now move on to the himalayas. This guy asked the monks about the best way for enlightenment. They said that the best way was to go back to society, live honestly, work hard and help others, and have faith and thankfulness to some unknown force that represents the forces of nature and the cosmos- which is indefinable. This guy then asked the monks that why did they not practice this themselves, and why do they live as recluses, to which they replied that they were too old and deskilled now.. that they had come too far and was difficult for them to return.. and that this is the summary of truth that they had learnt from their years of meditation-- and they advised this guy to go back into the world and live honestly, and this is what the sikh gurus said: Truth is High, but Higher still is Truthful Living....I am not preaching sikhism here, but just to let you know that sikh gurus stressed on- do your hard work, partake of your hard earning with those who are truly needy, and remember the infinite unknown in your mind-- they never taught one to subjudicate themselves to any mortal, but to have a direct reverence for the infinite unknown---Personally, I do respect the teachings, and I too find it difficult to bow before someone who is as human as me. I do not know if I would have bowed before any of my sikh guru if I were born then, as my ego comes in my way. But I can tell you something honestly--there was a guy called bhagat puran singh, who founded the pingalara in amritsar, a great philanthrope, who lived his life in austerity and set a great example. He is unfortunately no more, but if he were alive, I would have no hesitation in seeking an embrace from him in reverence. And depending on this example, if I would have found similar reverence to any sikh guru in their life-time, would have been governed by how I would have felt if I were there at that time-- but for sure, if one learns of the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Teg Bahadur and Guru Gobind Singh, one has hardly any doubt left in their about their genuinity as they chose to lay their lives for the sake of others. I am quoting this just to compare them with the current cult of designer gurus. The discussion of the concept of God given by the sikh gurus, is of course an individual concept to which we will all have our own views and faith, which will come and stay and go, and of which we can exercise no control. To believe in every word of what they said, will be difficult, and we have to call that as faith. And to accept that this faith in sikh gurus is justified just because they sacrificed their lives and lived honorably is also not necessarily a reason to accept the teachings--but one thing is clear, and that is --they may have more credence, because they have proven by their sacrifices that they were beyond greed/treachery etc. It is more likely that they were able to control their senses and attain a higher mental state that they uplifted themselves from the mundane world things--whether this was a sort of mental toughness and self-imposed hypnotism--is difficult to say. Whether in this self-imposed hypnotisistic state of mind, when the so called limbic system of brain glows with a pattern is just a mere biologic phenomenon, or reflects a controlled link to a higher light is not known, and is a matter of debate. Here is where faith comes in, and I accept that I do not know what is true-- are they able to connect to some higher light.. or is it just one sort of a brain epilepsy--with a controlled/uncontrolled rhythmic brain orgasm--remains unknown. And even if you have these seizure spells, what is their relevance--are they in any way perpetuating permanence of our souls to live hereafter-- or is it just a self-contained phenomenon that will stop as soon as blood stops flowing through the brain. Currently, I am enclined to believe that all thoughts will cease after death. All the NDE etc experiences are mere brain orgasms that may make one feel some intense ecstasy, but none of this will carry on in an organised way after death- I may accept one thing--that is, there may be a collective consciousness made of some fine matter/chemistry and there maybe some amalgamation in that chemistry after one dies-- and for that, I believe that it is controlled by none other than Lord Nature itself--and the gurus are subject to the same laws and uncertainties. But whilst living, the designer robes, status and the luxury do help a lot, to the senses---
Posted by: Rajinder Singh | August 26, 2013 at 04:33 AM
Ok, all of this may be something, but here's the THING.
Our Lord haas special treatment for foreigners(THE WHITE RACE), and ill or say normat treatment for the BLACK RACE? Well, what if you see a black SOUTH AFRICAN along with the other foreigners occupying the front seats, and accomodating the VIP Hostels!!
You know what, HE has respect for all forms of beings, but courtesy to extend his respect for his GUESTS. Every being(be it white or black) has his position in GURU's heart. Everyone is treated equally.
How? I'll tell you how!
Do you remember the Foreigner who was Gangraped and killed thereafter in Goa? Google it, and you won't have trouble finding thousands of such cases, including the ones with Indian women too.
India, for the same reason treats all the Tourists as VIPs if you see. They get treated specially, if you account for the phrase "Atithi Devo Bhava" followed largely in INDIA.
What is means is "Guests are next to GOD", find your way to GOOGLE.
That is simply what Babaji is trying to do. Treating INDIA's guests next to GOD, so that no ill comes to them, not to mention the scoundrels that roam about in the streets of Beas or any other INDIAN city, starving for White mass!
It's not upto our GURU to allow or disallow people to enter the provinces of DERA Beas, the same place where a large number of foreigners find accomodation, and thus the rule to prohibit INDIANS from talking to FOREIGNERS(even though I strictly doubt that, because I was never forbidden from any such thing).
For those who think this as in defence for RSSB, I myself am not a blind follower of the PATH that SantMat lays, and have many confusions regarding the teachings. But I am not blind enough to disregard the teachings on stand of these unreasonable questions!! Go grab some Common sense people.
Posted by: Kamal | September 11, 2013 at 10:38 AM
Hi Folks,
This Sant Mat Path is a difficult path and not too many people really get a great deal of spiritual experience from it as far as I can tell. I don't try to rationalize everything about it one way or another, but I can tell you that the little tastes that I have experienced within me won't allow me to end my quest because frankly, I haven't experienced anything greater in this world. Words for or against are more or less bullshit no matter how rational they may seem. The only thing that matters is that which has the most attraction for us inside our inner most hearts. That we must follow wherever it takes us, so have fun with your blogs and follow your hearts - they will lead you in the right direction for you. I don't have any hard feelings towards any of you. As for me, I will keep meditating unless something better presents itself and all the other outward actions of whites and browns or Baba Ji's jet or how this person or that person was treated or how a guy who poops just like the rest of us can be God are all irrelevant to me. We either feel the pull or we don't and the mind rationalized our perception accordingly. I'm jus' passing thru for the hell of it but best wishes to all of you dear souls.
Posted by: Slightly Experienced But Not Much Enlightened | November 09, 2013 at 12:44 AM
I agree on the same. I started going as my husband influenced me to. But I have to agree that it suffocated me. I could not feel a connection to the divine through it....I didnt agree with so many things they said. My husband was initiated few months back and I simply feel he is loosing his senses from the time he has started doing his meditation. He has developed an ego that Radhasoamis are only correct and the highest of all preachers. Its simply not acceptable to me.
We may take any god's name but if our heart is clean, intention is clear..there is nothing wrong. It is complete hypocrisy.
Now when the guru is detected with throat cancer, they say that he is taking away the bad karmas of his disciples. And otherwise they say that nobody can take your karmas, you have to bear them. Such contradiction!! It is very difficult for me to deal as my husband doesnt listen to me and fights over it. He meditated day and night, gaining nothing other than foot ache and fatigue. I have totally lost faith and am so perturbed
Posted by: Sneha | December 03, 2013 at 01:19 AM
i dont know what to say after reading all this.. i mean if u cant praise anything then also you dont have any write to say bu*****t lyk dis.. my whole family is a satsangi and i never felt anything like this.. and yea about old people you were saying that they have to sit on ground then i should acknowledge you that there are very good facilities for old people and others who are needy.. obviously any person having good health would not need all these things so they dont provide them... its jzt a matter how u see things,u jzt cant accuse them and also u dont have any right to do so.. am not insulting anybody itz jzt if u dont like anything its all your wish but hurting others feeling by righting all this is not good.. u think itz jzt waste or babaji is moneyminded then why millions of people are following him.. one or two person can be insane but not all.. that means there is something good they are learning.. m 17 yrs old and till today babaji help me in every worst situation i trapped in.. itz just that if u believe him or not.. and the persons who go there never lose anything they only gain.. yes..if if they are losing their money their respect or anything then u can say but when there is no loss like that then who are u to point at him.. this is ridiculous..u people dont know only to respect someone's feeling.. please i request u dont write such things..coz u dont get anything by writing all this but our feelings are hurted..
Posted by: jyoti | February 13, 2014 at 11:18 PM
jyoti- As far as I can see; People are not here to deliberately hurt the feelings of satsangi's. I am always surprised that satsangi's visit this site expecting to find something they will agree with wholeheartedly.
You have a right to voice your opinion...your thought are welcome. If they were not; Brian would not post them. In spite of your difference of faith he provides you with a platform to be heard. You don't have to tread on eggs shells here (not withstanding the fact that you are a lactose vegetarian so don't want you anywhere near the eggs).
In life there are always critics...it can be bloody annoying but it happens...football matches, reality t.v. shows...are you telling me you have never slated or slandered anybody that does not share your views? Are you telling me you have never hurt anybody's feelings?
Baba Ji is a grown man....he can handle the criticism...I'd go as far as saying he doesn't care....there is no such thing as bad publicity right?
Posted by: the9thGate | February 14, 2014 at 07:46 AM
I there to all the above..I have never come across racism on the Path...Although in the late 70s at Deara the South Africans had their own guest house, separate from the international one,I found that a bit odd...Perhaps it was our politics..We could not even get visas, we had to go thro a process, etc..I won't go into details...Perhaps its all just a cultureral thing, different life styles....But then he joking refered to us as the jewel in his crown...I have fond memories of those days..Life was simplilar then.
Posted by: june schlebusch | February 15, 2014 at 01:26 AM
I want you to reply on my comment. The one "Posted by: Kamal | September 11, 2013 at 10:38 AM"
Posted by: Kamal | December 08, 2014 at 05:32 AM
Kamal, I read your comment when you posted it, and I just re-read it now. Thanks for expressing your opinion.
Posted by: Brian Hines | December 08, 2014 at 08:14 AM
Refreshing to meet individuals not intimidated by dera
Posted by: Kay | November 01, 2015 at 12:11 AM
I do not agree with the individuals behaviour at Dera or Haynes but how is their behaviour going to accelerate or decrease your spiritual progress? It's not...So why focus on it?I myself have been annoyed at the treatment I have seen by sevadars and it is saddening. But I have learnt much about myself as a result. My advise would always be look within.
Regarding the whites being treated differently at Dera, this is because in most cases they have had to overcome cultural barriers, come to a alien country and may have done so at the disapproval of their loved ones so Masters have tried to make it the least daunting an most accommodating possible. If you were chinese I am sure you'd get treated the same.
Masters give us what we need not what our egos want. Please if you do not believe in the present master or his teachings just let it go and search within or another master who you find more infinity with.
All this is is Ego. Go inside, become enlightened and then you will not judge and comment on matters which on a spiritual quest are futile. This is your mind. First we must look at ourselves and become better, get rid of our judging and pride.
What is all this posting gaining? If you were enlightened you would not talk of a perfect master in this way.
Go inside and then come and type on here. To disrespect anyone is taking you away from spiritual truth but to speak disrespectfully of a master of truth is- well creating huge obstacles on your own inner journey.
I wish you all the best on your inner journeys.Be compassionate, be kind and think only of God.
“As long as you are proud you cannot know God. A proud man is always looking down on thing and people: and, of course, as long as you are looking down you cannot see something that is above you.”
― C.S. Lewis
Posted by: selina | November 01, 2015 at 08:39 AM
Why do people take the path to be true first and then analyze the situation? That way you can justify anything, with pseudo things like ego, soul and karma. You take the "inside regions" to be true and tell us to find it. How do you know this? How do you even know that you can be enlightened? Why is it that logic and reasoning are to be thrown out of the window when talking about spirituality. If god gave us those, then shouldn't we use them.
Posted by: Neon | November 04, 2015 at 01:13 AM
Those people that do not believe in Radha Soami are just plainly following the notion of ignorance. You had a great thing to be initiated by God, and yet you people complain about racism. If you had put in the effort to be a true radha soami, then you would have had the results. Apparently, you lack experince because your mind has won. Good luck to you in life because don't ever expect to find your life be full of happiness when you are turning away from this spiritual path and talking badly about the God. If you say this is not part of chritianity, then I am sure in the chrisitian religion, it says that you must be nice to people even if you do not like them. There is no need to goossip and talk bad about another religion in negative way, and this shows that you are not even a true christian.
Posted by: Helen Quinn | May 21, 2017 at 08:18 PM
Fascinating - forget the white man stuff. Master only surrounds himself with the higher Indian castes. So that Castist too (not sure that’d a word).
If you are a low caste you are pretty much fucked. End off. See God works in some strange ways looooooool
Dollar is True Satguru .
Posted by: Arjuna | December 12, 2017 at 02:48 PM
I am radhasoami satsang I live in Birmingham uk abstain from alcohol meat eating total vegetarian in beas punjab india I died in 1966
Posted by: Suraj k ratti | March 14, 2021 at 10:41 AM
I am certain the Radhasoamis don't allowed alcohol and meat eating at their premises is clear policy of theirs I want the Guru implement this initiative throughout the world. On my personal matter please the tell Government of India to clear the slums in Mumbai build nice residential areas not just only in Mumbai but across whole India Guruji please visit Ratti Building P O Road Nakodar Punjab India. Oh yes I like the Dera very much it is wonderful. Mrs F E Woods was the secretary of Radhasoami in UK
Posted by: Suraj k ratti | June 27, 2021 at 12:59 PM
I am certain the Radhasoamis don't allow the alcohol and meat eating at their premises on personal matter Guruji tell the Government of India clear the whole slums of india to make for new residential areas also Guruji please visit Ratti Building P O Building Nakodar Punjab India oh yes Mrs F E Woods secretary of Radhasoami in UK
Posted by: Suraj k ratti | June 27, 2021 at 01:12 PM
I am certain the Radhasoamis don't allow alcohol and meat eating at their premises this initiative must be applied the whole world on personal personal matter Guruji tell the Government of India to clear the slums to make for new residential areas and also Guruji please go my home Ratti Building P O Road Nakodar Punjab India Mrs F E Woods was secretary of Radhasoami UK
Posted by: Suraj k ratti | June 27, 2021 at 01:34 PM
Hi
This post was made a long time ago, but I thought I would comment anyway. When teachers, like Gurinder, invite people from abroad to visit them in India, the visitors are often given special access to the teacher because they travel a long distance and spend their hard-earned money for a short visit. Indians, on the other hand, live somewhere on the Subcontinent and it is easier for them to travel to, in this case, Beas.
Now, that being said, someone from abroad who happens to be of an Indian bloodline should be treated in the same way that any other foreign visitor is treated. Someone at Beas just didn't think the issue through properly. It's probably not a question of racism or racial bias, but more likely just a bad decision by someone who didn't think things through thoroughly enough. Someone should take them aside and explain that anyone who travels a long distance to visit Beas should have special privileges for their short stay, regardless of their race/ethnicity.
Posted by: Giovanni Vines | May 16, 2023 at 10:10 AM