I'm amused when other people try to understand why I did something -- like diassociate myself from the religious organization, Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), that I was an active member of for over thirty years.
Heck, I don't even know why I do stuff much of the time. None of us does. Neuroscience tells us that most of the brain/mind's activity occurs outside of conscious awareness. A desire, thought, inclination, motivation, or whatever pops up and we act on it.
But where it came from or what made it rise into awareness is a mystery. To ourselves. To other people.
Regardless, we humans erroneously believe that the workings of the amazingly complex Homo sapiens consciousness can be reduced to platitudes.
Today I got an email from someone who described a conversation he had with a senior RSSB "sevadar" (volunteer, basically) after he wondered how a disciple like me, after decades of devotional practice, would leave the guru-centered organization.
The response: "familiarity breeds contempt." Also, that I wanted to publish books outside of RSSB control, and this wasn't permitted. Both assertions lack validity. I may not know everything about myself, but I certainly know more than someone who isn't me.
Regarding the book, Return to the One, about the teachings of a Greek philosopher (Plotinus) that I began writing under the auspices of RSSB, I've previously described how I wasn't willing to compromise truthfulness for the organization's "party line." See here and here.
Other authors who tried to cram Christianity and Buddhism into the Radha Soami Satsang Beas belief box have done this, but I wasn't willing to. After studying Plotinus for several years, I came to have a deep respect for his philosophy. When RSSB wanted me to edit my book in ways I didn't feel were honest, I said "goodbye" and published the book myself.
Successfully (it's gotten good reviews).
What about "familiarity breeds contempt"? I'm not sure what this means. Why would I be contemptuous of something or somebody I know a lot about? Wouldn't I be as likely to feel better about that thing or person after my familiarity is strengthened, as to feel worse?
This is the perspective of a Psychology Today article on the subject.
In relationships, the problem is not with familiarity, but more about that to which we're acclimating. For example, disrespectful, dishonoring, and negative energy all too often become familiar territory in relationships. These are the elements that cause contempt. Perhaps we'd be better off saying mediocrity or unhappiness breed contempt.
I've been married for twenty-two years. All of that familiarity with my wife hasn't brought contempt. It's brought a deeper love. We know each other much better now than when we first met. Our relationship has become stronger, not weaker. My wife and I have grown together, changed together, adapted together.
With a religious organization like Radha Soami Satsang Beas, though, it's natural for someone like me to become disenchanted.
Many people have a superficial relationship with their faith. They go to church, or the equivalent, on the weekend. They pay lip service to vows, commandments, rituals, and the like. So they never really become intimately familiar with their religion. Hence, the relationship remains shallow, a passing acquaintance rather than an intimate getting-to-know-you.
By contrast, I threw myself into meditation, volunteer service, and other devotional aspects of RSSB. Yes, I became deeply familiar with the organization and its teachings. I got to know high-ranking disciples quite well, along with the guru, Gurinder Singh.
It wasn't familiarity, though, that led me to leave RSSB. As noted in the quotation above, if someone has a pleasing and satisfying relationship, familiarity breeds even more pleasure and satisfaction. In my case, the more I learned about Radha Soami Satsang Beas, the more I realized that what I desired -- truth, honesty, friendship, intimacy, caring, growth -- wasn't what RSSB was desirous, or capable, of.
The problem with rigid religions is that they aren't able to change along with their members. By contrast, Taoism, and to some extent, Buddhism, have a "there's no single right way" attitude. A good marriage, ditto.
Give and take; flexibility; compromise; humility; willingness to change -- this is how two people are able to happily get along for decades, or a lifetime. With religions, though, often the hierarchy and dogmas are set in stone.
"It's my way or the highway" says the religion to devotees who find themselves changing in a direction that isn't acceptable to the powers-that-be. Which is weird, when you think about it.
What I mean is, all religions, and particularly those of the Eastern variety like Radha Soami Satsang Beas, are about personal transformation. Yet rigid religions demand that their members change only in certain ways. For example, I spent thirty years meditating several hours a day, investigating subtleties of consciousness.
The result: insights, understandings, realizations.
However, since those weren't what the so-called RSSB "science of the soul" deemed to be valid, I was asked to not express them. So I was faced with a choice between what I had come to know as experientially true for myself, and the dogmas RSSB wanted me to believe in.
I chose truth.
Not just because I'd become intimately familiar with the RSSB organization and teachings; but because that familiarity led me to realize that what RSSB offered wasn't what I wanted. Life is short. None of us should spend our earthly time span living untruthfully, failing to follow what beckons us from the depths of our being.
You said it all right here, "None of us should spend our earthly time span living untruthfully, failing to follow what beckons us from the depths of our being."
Right on! If we're not authentic and honest with ourselves, what the fuck is the point of it all.
Bob
Posted by: Bob | February 21, 2012 at 08:10 AM
"If we're not authentic and honest with ourselves, what the fuck is the point of it all."
The "authentic and honest" people are usually reclusive and reticent because for most people "the point" is bullshitting.
Posted by: cc | February 21, 2012 at 08:36 AM
I come by this blog every now and then, both because I find it incredibly amusing and because it reminds me so clearly of just how blessed I truly am.
A few times I have wanted badly to respond to clueless posts and/or matching comments, but I always remember that the Masters have all said we should never do such a thing, as is specified in Dr. Julian Johnson's book "With A Great Master In India" where he said:
**** To all disciples the Master's injunction is: "Freely you have received, freely give. Only do not waste your time trying to give to those who are not ready for it." ****
So I have always just shaken my head and wandered off to return again briefly every 8 to 12 months just to have a peak to see what latest "scandal" had been "unearthed" (actually imagined, since nearly all have had explanations, some rather obvious) or what was the latest teaching that had been completely misconstrued. (It never ceases to amaze me that someone who says he practiced for 30+ years, gave satsangs, even wrote a book for Beas, suddenly can't even remember so much that is clearly spelled out in numerous books he should be familiar with. But, after all, we are talking about a guy who, with no experience of his own whatsoever, wrote a book for satsangis.)
Then today I was rereading Julian Johnson's above-quoted book again when I read something that perfectly expressed what I'd so wanted to post here many times as it clearly describes the very reason why such people as this blog owner, as well as David Lane, never achieved anything from their meditation and then went on very public rampages "exposing" their Masters for not giving them what they clearly feel they deserved.
Here it is:
**** At the first evening satsang held here an old man insisted on arguing with the Master, although he had been an initiate for over thirty years. This is something that is almost incomprehensible. How many human beings who have accepted the Master as a Master can then sit down and argue with him is one of the deep mysteries to this student. Later this man came to ask advice of the Master, claiming that he had never been able to go inside, or to get any satisfactory results from his meditations. Of course not. How could he expect results? He was manifestly suffering from one form of that deadly malady—egotism. It is a disease that manifests itself in more forms than neurasthenia. Anyone who can bring himself to contradict and argue with a Master surely has that disease in a malignant form. How could he expect to go inside? He may never hope for spiritual success so long as he has it. Happily this sort of thing is very rare among satsangis in this country. A beautiful humility is the rule, so far as this disciple can see. ~ From "Julian Johnson - With A Great Master In India" ****
This blog, and the description of the author's "battle" with Beas over how his book HAD to be published, nearly matches David Lane's incredible display of ego in his "I'm smarter than any Master" chest pounding that's displayed all over the Internet.
All I can say is that I am very glad these two no longer believe in the Masters, and clearly no longer believe in "karma," because their lives would be hell just thinking about what's coming up as they have pretty much dedicated their lives to try to keep others from the Path because, in effect, their "feelings were hurt" because they clung desperately to their egos and therefore didn't "get enough prizes" before death.
It didn't matter that the books clearly spell out how some satsangis will spend years in meditation without any noticeable gains, but that they would be rewarded after they took their final breath. It is very clear that the Masters wouldn't allow anyone with a still powerful ego to accomplish anything through their meditation. That is only protecting themselves from themselves.
All you have to do is research cases like Osho or Adi Da to see what happens when anyone with an incredible ego gains even a little through their meditation. (And those two weren't disciples of the Beas Masters so they didn't have anyone to protect them from that.) Those two started out great only to crash and burn. And that was NOTHING like what awaited them "on the other side."
As far as this blog owner and David lane, at least they will live out the rest of their lives somewhat satisfied because their egos got stroked. But come the day of their deaths they are going to be very unhappy campers (and that is an understatement) as the Masters have also clearly described what awaits those who take vows before God and then not only dishonor them, but mock Him besides (and that is exactly what they both have done - extensively).
If this comment of mine even makes it through the "censor" I'd say it speaks well of the blog owner, but the funny thing about ego is that the bigger it is the less one is ever able to see it. So perhaps he will believe this could never apply to him.
Still, something tells me he is the only one who will see this comment, because an ego that big couldn't deal with something like this getting out (at least not here). But since he will surely read this, I know it hasn't been a complete waste of time because there is always the faint hope that maybe it will hit home before it's too late (if it isn't already).
PS: In case this does get published ... To those who have yet to be badly influenced by this ego-stroking, I will just say that what the Masters teach is VERY real and if you don't cling to you self-love you will be able to prove it to yourself beyond a shadow of a doubt. Instead of wasting your time here, go and find out for yourselves.
I PROMISE you, if you follow the directions of the Master in EVERY way, and actively try to let go of your ego and catch yourself every time it rears it's ugly head (like it's done for me in this very comment), you will surely get ample proof. And for those who are truly dedicated to this, the Masters say to expect it in as little as 6 months.
Nobody who has ever gotten proof will ever come here and describe it to you. Some might still wish to tell you they've gotten proof, but most would see the dangers in even doing that. By the time such proof arrives they start to realize things like this blog are absolutely meaningless so they are smart enough to leave it alone. Well, most of them are, at least ...
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 22, 2012 at 02:50 PM
Thanks Cam, for illustrating what I said about bullshitting.
Posted by: cc | February 22, 2012 at 03:42 PM
Thanks cc, for illustrating what I said about ego.
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 22, 2012 at 03:56 PM
Cam, isn't it best not to criticize other peoples flaws but to try to overcome our own bad habits and shortcomings instead?
Posted by: DJ | February 22, 2012 at 05:38 PM
Cam, like I said, it's amazing how people who don't even know someone, claim to know them better than even themselves.
You have no idea...
About my meditation. My decades of devotion. The extent of my "selfless service." What went on with me and high-ranking RSSB officials. The insights I got into my own consciousness.
Yet you believe you do. Just as you believe what you've been told about Sant Mat. That's fine. Beliefs are what keep people going. They're a psychological lifeboat.
Just don't mistake your beliefs for reality. Don't believe that you can judge someone else in any realistic way. Don't believe that you can understand what someone else feels, loves, cares about, has gone through. You can't. Not really.
That said, I believe that I know where you're coming from, because I've been as judgmental as you in the past. Yet I'm almost certainly wrong about that, because I don't know you.
Cam, live your own life. Seek your own truth. Critique other people's ideas, opinions, conclusions, and such. But be cautious about judging other people's motivations, way of life, sincerity, and all that. Such is my advice. You can take it or leave it.
Posted by: Brian Hines | February 22, 2012 at 09:45 PM
Cam,
From my perspective you are completely marinated in RSSB dogma as I was once. Since then I have found there is nothing you can do about seeing/realizing God. There is no path to God or away from God. There is just God.
Still, you must do what appears to be the way to you until it no longer applies. Nobody here is likely to change your mind and you are not likely to change theirs.
Have you ever seen one of those pictures with all the wavy lines and colors that look like amorphous fields of nothing? Somebody tells you there is an image in the picture if you will just change your focus. But the harder you try, the more frustrating and difficult it is to see the image. Finally, you just give up and let your seeing just be there and suddenly the image in the picture pops out at you. It was there all along plain as day. Then you say, "Now I see it!" and as soon as that happens it slips out of view into the amorphous field of seemingly tangled images, fully present as always.
Posted by: tucson | February 22, 2012 at 10:41 PM
Putting aside Cam's mistaken assumptions about me (go read what I write about shabd yoga meditation, as just one example), I want to say something here in honor of what Brian Hines has done on this blog for the past few years.
He has shown remarkable (and I do mean remarkable) honesty in explaining his views on R.S. Beas in particular and spirituality in general.
He has opened up his mind and his heart and explained with a rare frankness what he saw as "off" in Sant Mat theology.
He has done a remarkable service to all of us, believer or non-believer.
Jagat Singh once wrote that 90 percent of spirituality is "clear" thinking.
Hines has repeatedly demonstrated that aspect of spirituality and for that I applaud him.
All this talk of ego, non-ego, and the like is just so much flotsam.
Let's be clear here. Does Brian Hines hand out autographed pictures of himself to hundreds of devotees while at the same claiming he doesn't want a personality cult?
I love Charan, but give me a break.... that is PRECISELY what he did.
Does Brian Hines set up a stall at his house and sell pictures of himself?
Nope.
Did Charan do that exact thing?
Yep.
So, this notion of ego is a ruse since it hides the very fact that these gurus parade themselves as "god enlightened" but when push comes to shove CANNOT in any objective manner PROVE their case.
I love meditating and I think shabd yoga meditation is effective, but not for the reasons proffered by Beas, but rather because of the wonderful plasticity of the brain and the way consciousness can simulate all sorts of amazing things (go read Faqir Chand closely and some neuroscience, Cam), but just because Brian doesn't have the same experiences doesn't mean by extension that there is something wrong in his viewpoint.
To the contrary, I have learned much more PRECISELY because Brian is HONEST enough to tell his story.... and he is not afraid to pull the curtain behind much of the BS that passes as spiritual truth.
Brian is an individual who thinks for himself.
I think we can learn a lesson from that.
I know I have and that is why I think Brian has contributed more to Satsang (in the literal sense of that term) than you realize.
Gurinder and Charan should be deeply proud of Brian.
He is liberating satsangis from mythic bullshit by doing that simplest of things.....
What is that?
BEING HONEST.
Posted by: david lane | February 22, 2012 at 11:25 PM
Brian,
One doesn't need to be "judgmental" to see what is glaringly obvious.
The one being "judgmental" is the one who is obsessed with a group where he didn't get what others have, so he has taken it upon himself to try to badmouth them and "expose" them for years.
And for the "terrible" crime that they had convinced him to "meditate" a lot.
You didn't "win" Brian so you took your ball and went home. The only thing that suffered from all the other "health benefits" that all that meditation surely provided you, was your pride.
And like a child with wounded pride you've gone on and on trying to "show them" because just telling your story and just publishing it somewhere wasn't enough damage to inflict. You needed have a constant stream of basically a "handful" of people make public comments telling you how "wise" you are.
That's a pretty safe bet when you know that the other million plus people who are initiates of Beas, almost all who have Internet access, will surely never come here to say anything because the majority who have made progress, including many who have made significant progress, couldn't care less about your childish games, nor do they feel any need to try to "correct" the falsities you throw out.
It's a no-lose situation for you (at least in your lifetime). You get your ego stroked with every new blog post you create - which, as a writer myself, with books published by much larger publishers than "Beas," including Simon and Schuster - I can say is no insignificant amount of time invested in something that offers absolutely nothing other than allowing you to feel "special" (though I'm sure we'll soon hear otherwise as truth seems to be in short supply here).
But don't worry because as soon as one of your "followers" searches for "Cam Summers" on Amazon, or Google, I'm guessing you'll find no such person, so it'll be "obvious" he (or she, since I chose a "unisex" name for this particular account) is a "fraud," just like those at Beas.
Hey, that ego pumping is kind of fun, maybe I should start my own blog dedicated to showing the world the hilarity of ego-stroking fools who got their feelings hurt, and then in response spend years of their limited time on this planet "paying back" the "big meanies" who didn't give them what they wanted, instead of spending that same time on worthwhile things such as ... hmmm ... where do I start? ... perhaps with their families? Or don't they spend enough time telling you how wonderful and smart you are?
I know those big meanies "ruined your life" by asking you to meditate and to give up cheeseburgers. And I'm sure having to never enjoy drugs or alcohol, and never have sex with another woman who wasn't your wife, was a terrible burden and ruined many fun weekends, but since that was the ONLY way your participation in RSSB could have “harmed” you in any way, I really have to have to question why such an obsession formed if it wasn't anything other than your bruised ego?
Was it all that horrible meditation? Or was it all the missed beef, beer & babes? Why have you dedicated such a large chunk of your life trying to badly portray an organization that runs 3 large, 100% charity, hospitals, does all kinds of other charity work, feeds 300,000+ people for free 3 or 4 times a year, gives numerous people who want to come and see the Master free room and board every year, in such a bad light?
You've spent an incredible amount of time devoted to harming this group and this is the best you could come up with? As a former investigative reporter, I have to say Brian that this obsession of your is one giant “fail.”
But keep plugging away Brian. I'm sure before you die you'll even be able to find someone who went to Beas and was served a free meal that wasn't hot enough by the time they got back to their table.
Perhaps you'll even lead to the downfall of this horrible organization that does so much charity work and that spreads such a terrible message of "love and respect" for your "brothers and sisters" everywhere.
After all, this organization needs to be brought down because that "incredible guy Brian" never got to have his soul leave his body and therefore he never got any "cool powers" like so many others did.
Keep plugging away Brian. You are truly building an impressive portfolio here with your "Kal-cified" rhetoric.
This was fun Brian. Thanks for letting me play too, but I'm now taking my ball and going home because this definitely took me into "areas" I haven't visited in a good long time, and which I hope never to visit again after this.
I truly hope you get all you wish for out of this blog and that you are eventually awarded the prestigious "Big Meanie Buster of the Year" award. I know it's no Pulitzer Prize, but with your ego tiny "victories" become huge.
Enjoy attacking me everybody. Then go stand in front of the mirror and pat yourselves on the head and tell yourselves what very special people you are and how vital and important you are to the rest of society.
I'd stick around but I actually have "important" things to do. ;)
PS - I just saw your "shadow" David Lane showed up for some of his typical ego masturbation, only this time by stroking you he is able to self-stroke without being so blatant.
I'm glad you contacted him to let him know he was so "needed" (yes, I know, "he just happened by").
I just figured I'd add a comment about him so I can see one of his famous "DAVID LANE REPLIES" responses so that I might cower in fear and tremble over the anticipation of what our eminent community college "professor" will do to rip my soul out and trample me into dust.
You guys should form a new blog together and call it "The Two Stooges." I'm just afraid all that usually auto-erotic ego-stroking might turn into a form of psychological homosexuality and then you might lose any "fans" who are homophobes. And you two can't afford to lose even a single fool from your fan clubs as the world couldn't handle the stress of you both seeking to get "noticed" by more than a handful of people.
WOW! I don’t know where this all came from, lol, but I guess it’s just been sitting in there brewing for years as I kept seeing glimpses of you small-time pseudo-intellectuals constantly replay your versions of Billy Squier’s “Stroke Me.” It feels good to have it finally “gone.”
Good luck. This was fun.
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 23, 2012 at 01:21 AM
Cam, wow. For someone who is concerned about my ego, you're sure spending a lot of time here on this blog talking about me.
Thank you. My posts about science and the nature of the cosmos get some attention, but what REALLY stimulates increased blog traffic are personal attacks like yours.
So you're doing Churchless Truth's Work, Cam Summers. Bless you from the heart of my soul-less soul. Your obviously elevated state of consciousness, judging from the loving, warm, compassionate tone of your comments, has guided you to this blog and the truths which are expressed here.
If I genuinely had a big ego, I'd say something like, "The purveyors of Truth always have been persecuted by those who fear reality. So your criticisms simply strengthen my resolve to speak the Truth even more fearlessly."
Oh, no! I just did say that! I must have a big ego! Well, so long as I have a sense of humor, I can deal with that.
Posted by: Brian Hines | February 23, 2012 at 08:33 AM
David, thanks for the supportive thoughts. Much appreciated.
Back at you: I've enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, your intelligent examinations of Sant Mat, spirituality in general, modern consciousness research, and such.
Those e-book magazines you make available for free are way cool. Whenever I read one, I'm impressed by the care and creativity that goes into them. See:
https://sites.google.com/site/msacmagazinesparttwo/
Like I said in my own response to Cam, no one really knows how someone else feels about deep intimate issues such as one's relationship with a spiritual teaching, a romantic partner, or such. Not even the person him/herself, really, since most of the brain's workings happen outside of conscious awareness.
Yet people like Cam have a mistaken belief that is as unfounded as their belief about God: that they have a special insight into the nature of another person, just as they believe they have a special insight into the nature of ultimate reality.
In my not very humble opinion, THAT is much more a manifestation of ego that what I do on this blog, and what you do with your MSAC activities.
Regardless, there's nothing evil about ego. Remember Popeye: "I yam what I yam."
Posted by: Brian Hines | February 23, 2012 at 08:51 AM
Yes, Cam, I agree with Tara.
It appears to me your relationship with RS is compulsive and guilt-ridden. You appear insecure by your fervent defense of your beliefs and criticism of others' dissent. This is unhealthy, imo.
Just relax and don't worry about us. Attend to your simran and bhajan every day, stick with the vows, and leave the rest to Him. We heretics will be delt with by the forces of Kal in no uncertain terms, right? So,you don't have to waste your time writing to fools such as us. It's all His Mauj anyway, isn't it?
I was at Dera in '74. There was a young doctor satsangi there who had missed a certain number of hours of meditation due to the rigors of medical school. He knew exactly how many hours he had missed. He was guilt-ridden about this and could not rest until all the missed hours were made up which took days of isolation in his room.
Nice guy, but very up-tight.
Posted by: tucson | February 24, 2012 at 10:59 AM
Thanks to learning about some of the comments posted here, I’m back ...
First of all, I want to commend nearly everyone who commented for “taking the high road.” It’s good to see some nice people haven’t had that “niceness” drained away by disappointment. Anyway …
Brian, as well as David Lane, have reacted exactly as I predicted they would to all those who were willing to listen. They both took a tremendous shot to their bloated egos and not only commented here (in Brian’s case multiple times), but this also resulted in Brian devoting another entire blog post to the “nasty meanie” who said such terrible things about him. Not only that, but David Lane has evidently gone on the attack, which Brian featured in that very post (though I have no interest in checking it out as I am very familiar with David Lane’s methods and his lack of knowledge regarding the teachings of the RSSB Masters – His fascination with Faqir Chand, who wasn’t even close to a “Saint,” is more than enough evidence of how “sophisticated” Lane’s “knowledge” is, but I’ve found WAY more than that to show me his “ego” has gotten in the way of even grasping the teachings).
My comments were a tremendous shot to such incredible egos. If they weren’t, my comments would have resulted in nothing more than some laughter and snide remarks. I knew if I posted anything that hit home with these guys they would surely prove my very point, at least to anyone who has a decent understanding of psychology. Their turgid self-defense is the perfect defense of my “theory” and that will be patently clear to anyone who might be “on the fence” regarding these two.
As for anyone posting here, my aim wasn’t to convince them of anything. I knew that was impossible. The human mind is an amazing thing, and the only thing that challenges self-love as the predominant emotion is the love of ones own opinions. And that love is strongest when it comes to anything of a religious or spiritual nature. Most human minds are wedded to their opinions, especially in the spiritual (or often the political) arena.
Unfortunately, in the spiritual realm, “opinions” don’t mean diddly. If you don’t have proof, absolute and irrefutable proof either way, you have absolutely nothing. I’m no different than anyone in many ways, but when it comes to “religious” ideas or beliefs, or lack thereof, I have never “taken a stand” on anything in that regard because all I had were thousands of questions that remained unanswered. Sant Mat slowly changed that but it took nearly 4 decades to finally satisfy my intellect sufficiently so that I could finally take the leap, head first, and attempt to PROVE everything that seemed to make such perfect sense “on paper.”
Suffice it to say, I am the definition of a “skeptic” (a great trait for an investigative reporter if not for a follower of any “religion”). No matter what it says on paper, I want compelling evidence before I will EVER believe something like Sant Mat, which challenged everything I had been told was true as I grew up a Christian. If you have any working knowledge of Sant Mat whatsoever you know I can’t possibly ever share anything that led me to the state of absolute conviction. Of course, the anti-RSSB crowd will start in with their attempts to claim that PROVES no such proof even exists, as if some guy coming on here anonymously, or even coming out publicly, and telling incredible tales of where his “soul” has taken him would ever, in a billion years, be believed by any of this crowd.
These same people have had numerous Masters describe in detail where their souls have gone and they are sitting here calling it a fraud. But they are going believe some anonymous guy with the alias of “Cam Summers.” Ya, right. For those still on the fence, I will say once again that I no longer have even the slightest doubt. For those of you wedded to your egos, I will leave it to you to paint me with whichever “lying, fraud, huckster” brush you are using these days.
If anyone cares to make the biggest decision of their entire lives based upon the fact that a handful of people here have lived up to what Sawan Singh so clearly says often happens, and that some people will follow this Path for 40 years or more without seeing any gains whatsoever, then this Path isn’t for you. If, on the other hand, you want PROOF instead of the wild claims of others, and you can truly dedicate yourself to the teachings (which is a whole lot more involved than the “4 vows” given at initiation, just read “Philosophy of the Masters” if you want to know what spiritual success requires), you will get your proof, and often get it, as Charan Singh has said, in as little as six months.
Not only will you get that proof internally, but you will get it externally as well. You will see yourself no longer becoming angry in situations that once would have enraged you. You will find that all the desires that once compelled you have mysteriously vanished. Your intense attachments to things will go away, and you will find that the love you felt for the “people” you were attached to will actually grow instead of decline. And the most remarkable thing of all, especially from the male perspective, is that if you are in a position in life where you wish to practice 100% celibacy (which means even no “self-pleasuring”), which Sant Mat, as well as many other spiritual practices, clearly says is essential in order to make inner gains, you will completely lose all such desire. (RSSB tells you “no sex outside of marriage” because that is essential from a moral perspective but initiates rarely read the literature deeply enough to see that they will be very limited in “inner gains” until they are able to stop even that.)
I can tell you honestly that I have done a TON of research on this and the ability for any male to live as a strict brahmacharyan (celibate) is extremely rare regardless of religious beliefs or desires. Just look to the Catholic faith or to countless well-known “yogis” if you need any proof. That just doesn’t “happen” to a man with a very healthy “appetite.” That only happens from God’s grace (or “Master’s” depending upon how you wish to look at it). Anyone who has been devoted to this Path and suddenly seen years of an overwhelming, nearly obsessive, drive suddenly seem to vanish will be shocked (though it remains only strongly suppressed so it’s important not to ‘test it” too much until it finally leaves for good, once you are able to conquer the ego – the last thing to leave and by far the greatest challenge).
All that alone would be pretty decent proof that something extraordinary was happening, but when you combine it with inner “happenings” that defy rational thinking, then you have more than enough “proof.” And at that point, no matter what anyone wants to say about this all being mere fantasy or some sort of a scam or whatever they need to claim to make themselves feel like victims of a con job instead of their own failure, you KNOW the truth. What anybody else needs to sell the world on, so they can sell themselves on the idea that their own failure was all their own doing, won’t matter to you whatsoever.
If you want proof then go get it for yourself. If you don’t want to be bothered with something as lame as “eternal bliss” because there are too many good TV shows on that you don’t want to miss, then jump in here and decry this huge “fraud.” Misery thrives on company and you will be welcomed with open arms …
That said, as to all those incredible scandals Brian and David have been able to “expose,” they are all of questionable reliability and even if found to be 100% true are (mostly) meaningless. Not only because they are so minor, but because both Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh took of the mantle of “Master” when they were in their early 30s. Sawan Singh has clearly said that Masters rarely assume the role fully ready for it. Most haven’t yet gone past the 3rd level. The human mind, as well as a somewhat reduced ego, is still fully in play. It takes YEARS of meditation to reach “perfection.” Some Masters might never even reach that exalted height while in this world and will have to continue their devotion on some higher level until they do.
Sawan Singh clearly said that even if your Master hasn’t yet reached that stage of perfection, you are fully “covered” by His Master, or His Master’s Master, or however far back you need to go in order to find a Perfect Master. The key is that your Master has come from such a line. And so, even if you, or I, ever question Gurinder’s “perfection,” I have no doubt about Sawan Singh’s. And even if Gurinder doesn’t happen to be fully up to the job yet (which, after seeing Him a few months ago and seeing the remarkable changes from when I saw Him 15 years ago, I’d have to say He is A LOT closer, if not already there), then I know Sawan Singh has my back.
I couldn’t care less if Charan Singh “sold pictures” or anything else. I ONLY care what happens to ME and what happens to me “inside.” And by that determination I will only say that I am fully, and 100% satisfied. Those of you who didn’t have similar “happy” experiences, please continue tearing apart that terrible “fraud.” At least when you look in the mirror you will always see yourself patting your back.
For anyone else who truly cares about finding true bliss, 24 hours per day, then get your head away from all this constant whining and test it for yourself. What’s the worst thing that will happen? You’ll get a ton of health and mental benefits as well as your own story to add to the whining failures list. That way you can tell the world how it wasn’t your fault at all, but was just the ridiculous claims of some bizarre “cult.”
Last word for this comment, though it will surely be meaningless, as well as likely highly doubted …
I like Brian very much. I think, from whatever we can tell from a blog that has plenty of time to be “created,” he is a good guy. Very good. A powerful ego doesn’t make someone a “bad” person, necessarily. But very good people can do some very bad things. And when it’s the ego stirring the drink that is almost guaranteed. Brian’s claim to be “doing good” with this blog is far more false than anything he has ever accused the Masters of doing. This blog was NEVER about “doing good.” It was about “getting back” at those he falsely believed were responsible for his failure to have his desires fulfilled. It quickly turned into an obsession, and that is clear as day to anyone not blinded by agreement with his point of view.
As for David Lane, I’m not even going to try to figure that out because his ego borders on megalomania at times, and so if there is a “good guy” under there anywhere, he is buried too deeply for me to find him. That’s not saying he doesn’t exist. It’s just saying we have to wade through much too much “look at me” baloney in order to find it. David loves himself way too much to ever truly love any Master, and the Masters have all said you can’t even reach the stage of having the soul leave the body until that love is powerful. And anyone who is completely enthralled with himself can never truly love anyone else, no matter what his wife might want to believe.
Again, I have to give Brian a lot of credit for even publishing my remarks. I believe he does so reluctantly, but to refuse to publish them would absolutely confirm everything I said, and even if nobody else would even know he censored something he was afraid of, he would be admitting I was right. And to anyone with an ego like I have described, such an admittance would eat at him for years. That said, few people with such powerful egos would even publish this because if the fear that anyone might agree with it (as very unlikely as that is on this blog). Brian has shown a lot of “good” in this blog, even though one has to search hard to find it sometimes, but publishing my comments surely sits up there with that, regardless of the reason he published it.
And for that Brian I will just say thank you and tell you that I honestly hope that one day you are able to see the real messages in my comments and decide to do something positive for yourself in return. I know that is very unlikely, but I truly do hope you one day let the grip on your ego loosen up so you will finally be able to lock in the incredible gifts you’ve let slip through your fingers. I mean that sincerely.
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 24, 2012 at 04:26 PM
Cam, note the irony of your promise- second last paragraph, first of your comments. Obviously you do not value suficiently what you may have experienced with respect to Sant mat internal experiences, that you let your ego take over by responding on this post against the will of G. Singh.
I see a far more important reason for you to respond on this blog site and that is that you finally can communicate your point which is healing, since much of the western interpretaion of Sant Mat involves a lack of involvement, interaction and an isolation of the individual.
Opposition to your fixed way of thinking creates a platform onwhich you can test your approach which is very healthy.
Personally, I do not, as Sant mat does, uphold paternalism, feudalism, personality cults,the massing of wealth for family by religious figures or blind faith.
I am not ashamed that I stand with the majority of the world's people on these points and that this way of thinking is even written into constitutions in order to be protected and valued.
Posted by: Catherine | February 25, 2012 at 10:39 AM
[Note: Cam is wrong, as he is about other things he/she is so sure about. I've published every comment of his. One lengthy comment of his went into the TypePad spam filter, so it wasn't published until I discovered it this evening. Comments are moderated, so there's always a delay. And today I was watching my granddaughter compete in a dance competition, so was able to only periodically check comments on my iPhone. Lesson for Cam is to be sure of your facts before you assert something which isn't true. Like, the existence of God. Or a comment not being published. Also, Cam, you said "goodbye" to this blog. Guess you love this churchless stuff more than you thought. -- Blogger Brian]
LOL! I knew you wouldn't publish my last comment Brian. Thanks for "playing." You will soon find out that I have an intricate knowledge of "media" and how to get my message out. Had you not had such an incredible ego my comments could never have threatened you so badly that you would resort to censorship. You would have published them and just laughed them off as harmless ideas with absolutely no merit.
But they killed you because they hit home so squarely.
I knew if I kept pushing your ego buttons you'd cave like the Titanic's twin brother.
You're a "big man" when it comes to attacking those you know would never even care, but you are nothing even close to a "man" when it comes to anyone calling you out on your boorish behavior.
You could have escaped with a couple blog comments buried on your site, but you couldn't handle even that.
I had no doubt as to how you'd respond I just wasn't sure which buttons I'd have to push in order to be able to convince the world what you are truly all about.
But stick around Brian, because this was just the beginning. You are going to have a much brighter spotlight on you than you could have ever imagined, even in your wildest fantasies about that "superstar Brian Hines."
Rest easy as it will take a few months minimum before your fantasy world begins caving in. Just use the mantra "I am so wonderful" and it will all seem like a dream. ;)
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 25, 2012 at 05:31 PM
[Note: again, Cam is wrong, as observed in an earlier note to Cam's comment. It's amazing how some people are so sure of things they should be uncertain about. A normal person would ask a blogger, "Did you get my comment? Please check on it." A religious true believer jumps to conclusions without checking facts. -- Blogger Brian]
Figured I'd throw it out again just so I could insure no claims of "I never got it."
PS - "PDFs" are wonderful ways of preserving evidence that something was posted. And I have that covered from the original posting, rest assured.
(Posted by: Cam Summers | Feb 24, 2012 4:26:15 PM)
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 25, 2012 at 06:00 PM
Hi Cam, sant mat is not much different to protestantism or maybe the charismatic churches which pivot around the wisdom of one charismatic leader, but in Indian attire IMO. Christianity has more of a connecting community for westerners.
Ego, and eliminating it, is something attractive to you obviously. What's wrong with ego exactly?
Playing is a sort of dance where threat and accusation are absence. You will find that Brian likes to dance. Even his grandaughter is learning to dance.
Slavery is another thing that is not allowed in democratic society. The difference between slave and volunteer would be that the volunteer can do something else if he decides not to volunteer any more.
Personally, I like the idea of having lots of men in loin cloths carrying baskets of soil back and forth longing for a glimpse of me while I watch from a raised hill under my umbrella.
Posted by: Catherine | February 25, 2012 at 11:38 PM
Cam, what is so important about taking away the desire for sex? Why is it not a healthy part of being a human?
It would seem that you used homosexuality as an insult earlier.
Posted by: Catherine | February 25, 2012 at 11:49 PM
Hi Catherine,
The spiritual truths (or beliefs) about ego and sex are much too much for me to get into here, even if I had any such desire, but the truth is that I'm not interested in getting into any sort of "debates" or discussions about the teachings. Not because that wouldn't be interesting but because I honestly don't care what anyone else thinks about me, so there would be nothing to "win" by getting into something like that.
The Internet is jam packed with tons of writings about those subjects and the works of the Sant Mat Masters are brimming with it as well. If you truly have a desire to learn the reasons then there is plenty of material to help you do that.
If you are looking to "one up" someone, I'm the wrong person. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about me or my beliefs or my experiences. All I care about here is pointing out the reasons behind this blog so that, perhaps, a small percentage of the relatively few people who pass through here might hear some truth instead of self-worship disguised as truth.
Most of all, I want to crack the cocoon of people like Brian and David just a hair so they know that just because nobody ever bothers to state the obvious doesn't mean it isn't obvious to many people.
Of course that is my own false belief because I know such powerful egos are supposed to be incapable of ever seeing such things, so I guess it's really to feed my own false beliefs that someone could ever hope to get through to people so self-involved.
As far as "using homosexuality as an insult earlier" not only is that not even close to the truth but your statement shows you are desperately seeking for ways to "lessen" me.
Save your energy. I am nothing even the least bit special. If I had time I'd give you a list of my faults in detail, but I don't believe i will live long enough to complete it.
And to the "incredibly sharp" minds who have taken the trouble of pointing out the obvious, that I still have a very strong ego, I'll just remind them that I am not even trying to hide that fact. If that was the case then I'd have myself a major "fail."
If I didn't have an ego I would be the equivalent of God, and I promise you this blog is the last place I would be.
So enjoy taking your shots at me as much as i enjoy them myself if they are well done and clever. Unfortunately we haven't yet begun to attain such lofty heights but I know there are more to come. After all, we surely wouldn't want to address the subject when there are such great opportunities for insults with which to distract. ;)
(I wonder how long this comment will sit in the "spam" folder before Brian finds it.)
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 26, 2012 at 05:22 AM
[Note to Cam: truth is truth. What I said about finding your comment in the spam filter was the truth. If you choose to believe your own delusions rather than the truth, that's up to you. My suggestion, though, is to face reality rather than what your own mind wants to believe is true. -- Blogger Brian]
And to Brian,
I am very familiar with blogs of this variety and even if I was foolish enough to buy into the "spam filter" baloney you're flinging, I know better. The only reason I even added another comment was because I knew that would likely cause my comment to be "found" suddenly.
Since such comments as mine that have nothing even closely related to "spam" can so easily be misconstrued, you'd think after a decade of more of operating all these blogs you would be aware by now to take a peak into that post-sucking behemoth. Especially when you are going through the trouble of reading and publishing several comments on other posts, as you did before "finding" my comment after I sent you the above comment.
But how could I ever doubt anyone as "honest" and "truthful" as you Brian? I will probably be punished horribly for even entertaining such a ridiculous doubt. Gurinder & Charan Singh are the ones who must be doubted, not Brian Hines. At least not in the "Church of Brian Hines."
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 26, 2012 at 05:36 AM
To Catherine again,
Regarding whether YOU don't believe ego or sex are any kind of problems or hindrance on the Path outlined by Sant Mat doesn't matter whatsoever. The Masters of that Path are very clear in saying that both things (as well as many others) will prevent progress in meditation.
Those who have taken the vows to follow that Path, like Brian and David, who then try to achieve some level of "fame" based upon their failure to achieve anything from their meditation when they blatantly disregarded what they knew would prevent any such progress, are beyond stupid. They are reaching a new realm in which "moronic" would seem "Einstein-like."
They believed in the truth of this Path and then supposedly dedicated 30 or so years to the Path. They were told if they spent 2.5 hours a day in meditation and they lived a certain way and they let go of their ego and let it begin to fade, they would attain all sorts of things.
But they didn't do what they were supposed to do and so didn't attain anything. Now they are running around telling everyone what a "fraud" this Path was. In other words they were complete idiots for 30 years but now they are suddenly incredibly brilliant people who can't even understand why they didn't do what was required and so failed to get what they were told they would get if they just did what they promised to do.
Whether you think "ego and sex" are fine is absolutely meaningless. That's like hearing about a kid who got caught smoking and got thrown off a football team where he knew the rule was no smoking. The fact that "Internet Catherine" might think smoking is fine has nothing to do with that kid getting only what he earned.
But I'm sure if that kid started a blog telling the world what a terrible fraud that football team was, you'd be there standing up for him and telling the world that you think smoking is fine therefore he should never have been kicked off the team. ;)
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 26, 2012 at 06:09 AM
Cam wrote: “I like Brian very much. I think, from whatever we can tell from a blog that has plenty of time to be “created,” he is a good guy. Very good. A powerful ego doesn’t make someone a “bad” person, necessarily. But very good people can do some very bad things.”
Cam, what is GOOD and BAD? They are just VIEWPOINTS. Good for WHO? is the question. If you hold no viewpoint and take no sides – then ‘good’ and ‘bad’ both disappear. check out my brief article here: http://ezinearticles.com/?Adam-and-Eve---Meaning-Behind-the-Story&id=5580787
Good and Bad does not exist in reality. We humans make it up. Brian Hines is just Brian Hines, neither good nor bad – if you have no personal agenda.
Cam – just relax and enjoy the show. Why are you so concerned about his journey. It is perfect – let him enjoy his journey and you enjoy yours. Who gave you the job of saving the world anyway?
Posted by: osho robbins | February 26, 2012 at 06:39 AM
Hi Cam,it s less interesting to hear about your frustration, and more interesting to hear some of the ideas you have put forward. Thoughts are aired and put to the test here. Nothing personal. I'm pleased that you are able to let off some steam. It's one way to do it, at other times I guess you sublimate.
Posted by: Catherine | February 26, 2012 at 10:51 AM
Brian Hines, 'read some neuroscience and Faqir Chand' is too wide and vague a suggestion for me to understand what you mean by,' the wonderful plasticity of the brain and the way consciousness can stimulate all sorts of things.' Could you explain what that means, and in what form have you experienced it?
You suggest Brian has not experienced the plasticity etc and yet you congratulate him for his honesty in telling it like he knows it- minus that experience. Perhaps this suggests that Brian may be somewhat dense. Brian, do you think that you've experienced it?
Also, why do you love Charan?
Posted by: Catherine | February 26, 2012 at 11:10 AM
Cam
If you desire a forum where your opinions and posts will never be previewed, and put into some cyber-wastebasket, EVER, post on Lane's Yahoo Radhasoamistudies Group. No matter how badly he is critiqued, he lets the post stand. In my opinion this speaks volumes for Lane's integrity -- his willingness to be criticized without complaint. Believe me, you are not the first to have harshly critiqued David Lane. I can not say this about Brian, I think you are the first (published here) to really load the gun and let his "ego" have it. Ho Hum, looks like he survived pretty well.
Posted by: silly me | February 26, 2012 at 11:43 AM
Osho, your question about "Who gave you the job of saving the world anyway?" is a perfect example of how the human mind works.
You hit me with that because you don't like my point of view but you never once asked the same to Brian Hines who has been "trying to save the world" here for a decade or more.
And your philosophical approach to "good or bad" is amusing as I'm sure you would feel the same way if you walked in to catch someone raping your child or killing your mother.
It's easy to act completely removed regarding the idea of "good or bad" when hitting the buttons on a keyboard. The world is full of people who are incredible philosophers in their own minds, but my use of the word "bad" was regarding the teachings of Sant Mat where it is spelled out that "gossip" or speaking bad about anyone else is one of the worst things you can do.
Whether you agree with the Sant Mat teachings doesn't matter because this blog is in existence solely because of Brian's association with Sant Mat. And the mere fact that he would ever have such a blog is just another in a long line of "proofs" that he never lived the way he was told he must live in order to ever make any gains in his meditation.
Of course he didn't make any gains. I've already spelled out several ways he defied what the Masters have all taught for 6 centuries or so. He defied the teachings in numerous blatant ways and because he didn't make any gains in meditation, as they make it clear that you will not if you do such things, he is on here multiple times each month calling THEM frauds.
He is the only "fraud." He's upset because he didn't do what he was supposed to do and thus got nothing from his limited efforts, and he has since been leading people like you around by the nose so you can all stick up for him and join in the lynching party.
But my pointing out what should be blatantly obvious to anyone with an IQ above double digits means I have a "personal agenda."
Because I am pointing out the incredible hypocrisy on display here post after post, I have an agenda. But Brian Hines and his mindless minions are all just out to "protect" the world because they are such fine human beings.
This "stuff" just keeps getting deeper and deeper here. Brian Hines and David Lane are living out their "guru" fantasies and all you "disciples" can't even see that you are the ones who have been "conned" and formed your own miniature pseudo-cult.
Instead it's all those doctors, lawyers, professors, scientists and everyday people - almost 2 million of them - who have been "conned" by following what they were told they needed to do, and who have continuously confirmed everything that has been taught by assorted Masters for 600 years. They confirm with their "eyes" (nirat) while you all confirm with your "minds," but it is them who are the fools.
You guys who are the "smart" ones because you agree with a couple of fools who refused to do what they were told they must do and so never got any of the "proof" that countless others got.
This blog and David Lane's similar "brilliance" would make a hilarious sitcom. We could title it, "I love me!" and have it be the modern day equivalent of "I love Lucy." Of course we have the second best thing already as they display their "intellects" to the world every chance they get. Funny stuff guys. Keep plugging away. :)
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 26, 2012 at 11:58 AM
Thanks for all the attention, Cam. Enough is enough.
This blog's commenting policy doesn't allow personal attacks, but my enlightened humility has led me to make an exception in my case. However, since I'm a person, personal attacks on me (and David Lane) also can't be allowed at some point.
Which is now.
Substantive comments on subjects of a post are fine. It's fine to disagree with what I say, but constant griping about my saying what I say is boring and unproductive.
Posted by: Brian Hines | February 26, 2012 at 12:26 PM
Cam,
You only have succeeded in making yourself look bad and not those you criticize.
Can you imagine Gurinder Singh saying what you have said here?
A question to ask yourself...How do you know that countless others got proof?
Posted by: tucson | February 26, 2012 at 02:08 PM
You are right Brian. And I did enjoy the "enlightened humility" line, lol. (I mean that honestly and not as some sort of "crack.")
Though I must say your timing really stinks because I came here to make a post that would now look as if it was because of what you wrote and that I was saying what I said because I was trying to "make nice."
I might still decide to post my thoughts another time, but this just wouldn't be a good time because any "impact" my words might have had will be lost under these circumstances (not that there even would be any such impact but not it would make the words seem to have a different meaning than what was meant).
To Tucson -
I was serious when I said I don't care how I look. I couldn't possibly say anything that's more "honest." I fully understood how I was going to come across and I chose that approach for a reason (which doesn't matter). I'm not saying the reason was smart or foolish. Only time will be the judge of that. But there was a definite reason to my madness.
No, I can't imagine Gurinder Singh saying what I've said here. If He did I would never follow Him. But the fact that He would never say such things is in small part why I do follow Him, and the fact that I would say such things is in small part why I need to follow Him.
As to the "question to ask yourself," it was asked and answered and I am very happy with the answer but thanks for suggesting it.
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 26, 2012 at 05:25 PM
[Note to Cam: in the future, if you don't find your comment posted within 12 hours or so, simply send me an email and mention this. Usually the problem is that a comment gets put automatically by TypePad in the spam filter, which has been happening with your lengthy, often insult-filled comments.
I was on an airplane for much of today, and otherwise away from my computer. I can't check spam on my iPhone; only can publish comments that are judged non-spam by Typepad.
Other than when I'm alerted about a possible lost comment, I check the spam filter periodically, about once a week. You don't need to get all paranoid, as you did today in a blog comment I didn't publish, about me "censoring" your comments. I don't censor comments which conform with this blog's commenting policy (no extreme personal insults; stick to the topic of the post, etc.).
As I've noted to you before, you have a habit of jumping to conclusions -- both about what happens to your blog comments and your religious beliefs. I'd like to suggest that you "chill out" more and not look upon everything as being centered on yourself. When a comment gets put in the spam filter by TypePad, it isn't anything personal. It just happens.
Also, you might consider whether you're able to post any comments at all on web sites/blogs run by your favored religion. Can you do this? Can you criticize the religion on its own site, like you're able to criticize this blog here? Can you criticize the leader of your religion on his/her web site, like you've been able to criticize me on my own blog?
Consider these questions. They should tell you something about the difference between open-minded churchlessness and closed-minded religions. -- Blogger Brian]
To "silly me" -
I'm familiar with Lane's group which is why I made the comment earlier about "DAVID LANE REPLIES," which is directly from that group (if he does that elsewhere I'm not familiar with it).
I have no interest in that group because it is nothing but an "ego forum" where people all participate just to promote their own ideas and to find others who agree with them.
I'm not trying to criticize the group as I used to love groups like that. I'm just not interested any more in debates and other things that are solely about my supporting my own ego. It already has too much support, lol.
I am trying very hard to lose that ego but I still occasionally go off on tangents like this one where I convince myself that it's about some "greater good," when the fact is that I know nothing I ever say is going to change anyone's mind about anything at all.
Unfortunately, I have come to understand ego so well because I am still very much under its control. I see it in everything I do. Ego doesn't equate to any sort of "egomania" in most cases. It basically just means a sense of self. As long as the ego remains, the "I" remains, and as long as there is any "I" then "He" is kept out, no matter what our minds want to make us believe.
Ego is ALL that is separating us from God. When the ego is finally dead, all that remains is God. That's "God realization" in a nutshell.
So anything at all that encourages ego in any way whatsoever is a bad thing for anyone following the Path of Sant Mat. The only way to ever conquer it is to become terribly aware of it and try hard to avoid things that encourage it (like I'm not doing at this very moment).
That's why I've done a lot of things such as stopping my own blog and it's why I've dropped off a couple forums I used to love and it's why I avoid David Lane's group, though that was tough one to avoid for a long time because I so wanted to jump in head first. Now I just don't have any such interest.
In fact the thought of getting involved in that group now is something akin to torture. I can't even stand to read it any more. It literally gives me the creeps, lol. I can't even say why that is but I avoid it like the plague. Something has changed in me, not that group, which made me react that way, but whatever it is that group is as unappealing to me as possible now.
I hadn't even looked at this blog for more than a year, and hadn't spent much time here in ages, but something suddenly "bit me" and I felt compelled to come here to see if a new post had been made that was about RSSB in any way so I could "go off."
Was I motivated internally by God? Heck no. It was more likely Kal if it was anything "supernatural." But my guess is it was just psychosis. :)
I don't know where it came from to tell you the truth. I haven't even thought about this blog in ages. I just had the sudden urge to come here and say things I'd been thinking every time I ever stopped by in the past. I said them and now I get to spend time kicking myself in the tail for having let my own ego get the best of me.
That doesn't mean I am sorry for anything I said. It only means I'm sorry that I even went to the trouble of saying any of it. The fact that I even felt a need to say anything on this or any other blog or newspaper or anywhere public just shows me how far I still am from where I want to be.
And where that is, is that I want "me" to go away (and believe it or not, I want that even worse than Brian does, lol). I am constantly asking God to kill this horrible thing called ego. I hate it. And I hate it 1,000 times worse in me than in anyone else. But I never feel compelled to even broach the subject with anyone else, except in rare cases when they have the "gold ring" within their grasp yet they are doing all kinds of things to encourage the only thing that's keeping them from that ring - the ego.
The first step in attaining all that Sant Mat promises is to recognize your own ego and understand what an enemy it is to you. The second is to try to avoid things that encourage that ego. Only then will meditation begin to slowly chip away at it. And once that starts all the other "problems" will begin to fade.
Ego is the greatest enemy by far, and the Masters all say it is the mortal enemy that's the last to leave, but it can be defeated and they clearly spell out the ways to do it. Once you begin to try hard you begin to be "rewarded" in small ways. You also begin to be tested in many ways. But pass the tests and more "rewards" will be added. For most people it's a life-long battle, but like anything the more you devote to killing that enemy the more great results you will get.
But the ego is such an incredible enemy that it blinds us to so much. You reach a point where you start to see it very clearly, and even then it's a cunning foe. But there is absolutely no way to defeat it unless you try very hard. Do that and "God" will make sure you win.
Despite that, and despite the incredible "prizes" that await, people are still so blind that they think it's more important to get their "name" in front of people for whatever reason they come up with. The fact that they will be dead in 10 or 20 years and that in 50 years nobody will even remember them, let alone even care about them, doesn't matter. What's important to them is "what people think about them" and "what they think about them right now."
I like to think about all the people who ticked me off about one thing or another 20, 30 even 40 years ago. How they sometimes ruined my entire day. All the kids in school who picked on me, or the boss who didn't think i was doing a good job ...
I like to think about them but I can't. because I can't remember any such people. I know they existed and I know how they would often enrage me. They were the center of my world for short periods, but now they don't even exist.
The same applies to all the people who praised me or told me how wonderful I was. Who were those people? What good did all that do for me? Why did I care so much for something so meaningless?
The ego is truly a strange beast. Especially when we love it so much that we aren't even willing to loosen our grip on it in exchange for "eternal bliss."
But who needs that when I have people "agreeing" with me? That's what's really important. I won't even exist shortly and nobody will even remember me (as if it mattered even if they did), but people agreeing with me is sooooo much more important than anything like an eternity engulfed by love and bliss of a type that is beyond comprehension.
Oh well, some desire love and bliss throughout trillions and trillions of years of eternity, and other desire people agreeing with them for 10 or 20 years. Who am I to question what matters to people?
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 26, 2012 at 06:38 PM
Cam,
Thank you so much.
Your comments reminded me of what it felt like to be a devoted satsangi again. So many doubts but anyway back to the meditation again :)
Posted by: fringe satsangi | February 26, 2012 at 07:43 PM
Cam,the Fokker parents in the movie 'Meet the Fokkers' were a good example of how sexuality can ease up relationships. Their knowledge and complete acceptance of sex was one of the things that made them healthy adults and also that made the act no big deal.
Catholic priests on the other hand have under-developed sexuality. They have not been permitted by their institution to explore their sexuality. As a result they are stuck in childhood and some inevitably turn to children. Their interaction is unhealthy, preditory and guilt-ridden. I believe that the children are usually male because Jesus is depicted as male and all their attention goes to him during their priesthood. Jesus is also meditated upon, depicted with a largely smooth-skinned naked body in a tortured posture nailed to a cross. Also young males are the only ones available through all male Catholic schools and choirs and they are soft and hairless, much like women and the many depictions of Jesus.
I was also interested recently to hear some experts/ Doctors from a men's sex clinic talking on a TV program and they said that as men reach their 40s, many develop protruding stomachs- influenced by the reduction of testosterone in the male system. They can get testosterone injections or experience amongst other things reduced erections. In fact the expert said that it is difficult for many men after the age of 35 years to perform outside of a window period of between 5am and 7am in the morning. Of course this does not affect any of the men I know or any of the men who visit this site!
Cam, the thing is, that the interest in sex may wain quite quickly in many people over a certain age or after a period of time anyway quite naturally, or as a result of overwork or trauma, not because of sublimation. They do not have to have any meditative alliegences. Sublimation may in fact cause an unnecesary attention on the subject and what is natural may become perverted.
Those are ideas, some are put forward as facts. What other ideas can you offer on the subject, Cam?
Posted by: Catherine | February 26, 2012 at 09:01 PM
Cam,
Thank you for your response.
Let me reply point by point.
1. You hit me with that because you don't like my point of view but you never once asked the same to Brian Hines who has been "trying to save the world" here for a decade or more.
You are sadly mistaken, Cam. Brian is not trying to save the world. He's not even trying to save himself. There is nothing to save. You need to understand that there is no Sach Khand, no Sat Purush waiting to greet you after death. No radiant form of the master who will come at death to save you. If you have any doubt - go ask your guru and he will tell you in no uncertain terms that "I will not come at the time of your death". I have heard him say this personally.
Check out my video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50
where I explain how the teachings have changed.
2. And your philosophical approach to "good or bad" is amusing.
What's amusing about it. You was not BORN knowing what is good or bad. You were TAUGHT. It was given to you and became a belief. Take 'eating meat' as an example. Is it RIGHT or WRONG?
You may say it is wrong. Just the other day I was speaking to a muslim who said meat was okay - as long as it was HALAL! These are just beliefs - and all beliefs appear to be TRUE! To my muslim friend - what he says is the absolute truth because he has the truth from the koran. You and I don't live in the real world; we live in a world of beliefs, which we think is the real world.
3. my use of the word "bad" was regarding the teachings of Sant Mat where it is spelled out that "gossip" or speaking bad about anyone else is one of the worst things you can do.
One of the WORSE things? says who? worse than what exactly? YOU are 'speaking bad' about me and Brian Hines and Dave Lane. Does that count? Or is it okay for you to do so? Is it worse than STEALING? Worse than killing someone? It is all beliefs and you believe what you want to believe.
A country goes to war. It is expected that the soldiers KILL the soldiers from the opposing country. And it's not BAD!! In fact we are told it is GOOD!
What did that soldier do wrong? Nothing - but its okay to kill him. You are a HERO if you kill another human being (soldier) who also has a family waiting for him at home and he never did you any harm.
What kind of logic is this? Yet our 'country' needs us for this purpose so it brainwashes the soldiers to mindlessly kill and to simply follow orders. And this, we are told, is good. Yet if you personally kill someone who breaks into your home, you can get locked away.
Hmmm... go figure. right and wrong is whatever you believe.
4. Whether you agree with the Sant Mat teachings doesn't matter because this blog is in existence solely because of Brian's association with Sant Mat. And the mere fact that he would ever have such a blog is just another in a long line of "proofs" that he never lived the way he was told he must live in order to ever make any gains in his meditation. He defied the teachings in numerous blatant ways and because he didn't make any gains in meditation, as they make it clear that you will not if you do such things, he is on here multiple times each month calling THEM frauds.
For your information, Cam, he was once considered by your own guru to be one of the members of his ‘elite team’. He was authorised to write books, by the guru personally. If your guru is all-knowing, why did he get Brian to write a book when he knew he would soon leave the ‘path’. The people you ‘revere’ today as top satsangis can leave tomorrow and then you will condemn them. Yet they are the same people who have just decided to leave for their own reasons. If you are not allowed to leave then sant mat is a prison. People grow and mature and leave.
5. He is the only "fraud." He's upset because he didn't do what he was supposed to do and thus got nothing from his limited efforts, and he has since been leading people like you around by the nose so you can all stick up for him and join in the lynching party.
YOU are not doing what you are supposed to do. You are not supposed to comment on this blog – it’s a direct order from your guru. This is a cardinal sin and you have disobeyed a direct order from your guru. There is no way you are going to make any progress now. It’s stated all over sant mat that obedience to the gurus commandments is the NO 1 rule,
And what makes you think Brians efforts were ‘LIMITED’? How many books have you written for RSSB? How many years have you devoted? How much meditation have you done? How many satsangs have you conducted?
I used to conduct satsangs for RSSB – until I personally saw it’s all full of politics.I was told in no uncertain terms “WE NEED PARROTS”. I told them I am not prepared to be a parrot because I am a human being – not just a mouth piece for an organisation. If I had continued to do satsangs for them – I would have been untrue to myself. So I left. Now the same people who thought my satsangs were great think I am deluded. Such is life.
Posted by: osho robbins | February 26, 2012 at 09:18 PM
Cam, in reply to your posting of 24th feb, halfway down you wrote as follows:
“That said, as to all those incredible scandals Brian and David have been able to “expose,” they are all of questionable reliability and even if found to be 100% true are (mostly) meaningless. Not only because they are so minor, but because both Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh took of the mantle of “Master” when they were in their early 30s. Sawan Singh has clearly said that Masters rarely assume the role fully ready for it. Most haven’t yet gone past the 3rd level. The human mind, as well as a somewhat reduced ego, is still fully in play. It takes YEARS of meditation to reach “perfection.” Some Masters might never even reach that exalted height while in this world and will have to continue their devotion on some higher level until they do.
Sawan Singh clearly said that even if your Master hasn’t yet reached that stage of perfection, you are fully “covered” by His Master, or His Master’s Master, or however far back you need to go in order to find a Perfect Master. The key is that your Master has come from such a line. And so, even if you, or I, ever question Gurinder’s “perfection,” I have no doubt about Sawan Singh’s. And even if Gurinder doesn’t happen to be fully up to the job yet (which, after seeing Him a few months ago and seeing the remarkable changes from when I saw Him 15 years ago, I’d have to say He is A LOT closer, if not already there), then I know Sawan Singh has my back.”
UNBELIEVABLE! Here’s you, alias CAM SUMMERS – admitting clearly that Gurinder Singh was never ‘up to the job’ when he first became the master. WOW! And then you say he is now a lot CLOSER! Anyway you say his guru or sawan will bail him out.
You clearly state that masters rarely assume the role fully ready for it. So you are saying that they MIS-LEAD people into thinking they are masters when in reality they have just reached the third level and have an ego at work?
You then say that some masters may never reach the exalted stage while on this earth and will continue after their death?
Where do you get all this nonsense? Read SAR BACHAN. It clearly states what a MASTER muse be to qualify. He MUST have reached SACH KHAND in order to be a SANT SAT GURU. If not there – he is not a sant sat guru. If he gets to the FOURTH level – he is considered a SADH guru. He lists all the different types of masters. He also writes that if nobody has reached that level – to be a real master – the line of masters come to an end.
Charan singh in ‘treasure beyond measure’ clearly states that he has no inner progress. He even shows his own personal diary entries to make sure that everyone understands that he was in a dilemma as to what to do. He was clearly not in any exalted level. So according to Sar Bachan, that line of masters comes to an end.
This idea that the masters predecessors will save the disciples is nonsense. Because then you might as well set yourself up as the new master and don’t worry – because sawan or baba jaimal will take over. If this is the case – why does RSSB have such opposition against Kirpal Singh – because then sawan will take over and Kirpal Singh is a valid guru.
Posted by: osho robbins | February 26, 2012 at 09:42 PM
Cam, did you meet Sawan in order to be sure of his perfection? Gurinder has loads of hair on his face; are you sure you saw a change?
Posted by: Catherine | February 27, 2012 at 03:48 AM
I have a good chuckle whenever I see that persons pseudonym who for commercial purposes posts under the risible name Osho Robbins-seriously, this like a combination of two of the most odious spiritual/philosophers from the East & West, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and Tony Robbins no less!
Posted by: Dj | February 27, 2012 at 07:53 AM
DJ,
There is also John Robbins, Baskin-Robbins ice cream heir, vegan advocate author (check him out at Amazon), and RSSB satsangi.
Actually there are quite a few celebrated Robbins. Which did Osho pick? Maybe one of those? None?
Posted by: tucson | February 27, 2012 at 10:59 AM
Cam,
you clearly don't have any faith in the current master of RSSB, so you might as well leave and join us churchless folk. The current master is clearly a businessman rather than a mystic. He's also great at marketing is targeting the new teachings at the new generation. But that is not what sant mat is about.
when you look to the previous masters to save you, then why do you even need a current master? RSSB has become just another religion, with beliefs, dogmas and rules.
Posted by: osho robbins | February 27, 2012 at 04:56 PM
Cam, I enjoyed your recent comment about ego. I used to feel much the same way, that ego was something which had to be resisted, torn out, shrunk, decimated until that barrier between God and me was gone.
Now, I'm more inclined to feel that "ego" (if such a thing exists at all) manifests when I'm paying excessive attention to myself, rather than simply existing and acting as a natural part of nature.
So it appears to me that when I'm focused on myself, worrying about whether I've got too much ego, or whether my ego is controlling me, that actually causes my sense of self/egoity to be stronger rather than weaker.
That is, maybe ego is only real when we look for it -- which includes trying to find it so we can get rid of it. I realize that RSSB/Sant Mat places a big emphasis on consciously trying to shrink ego, but this strikes me as counter-productive.
Once at a speaker's/secretary's meeting, someone (Vince Savarese, I believe) said "Never thank a speaker after satsang, because this will increase their ego." I thought, "That's ridiculous. Why can't we act like normal human beings, who, when thanked, simply smile and say something like, 'Glad you liked the talk,' or 'Thanks for listening.'"
Again, focusing on acting egoless often leads to religious people looking fakey-humble, rather than real. "Oh, no, don't thank me; I'm just a humble servant of my guru. He does everything, not me." In my opinion, there's more ego in that response than in a simple "Glad you liked the talk."
Posted by: Brian Hines | February 27, 2012 at 05:25 PM
Nice response Brian.
I agree with you 100% regarding the speaker example, but I also know from personal experience that in some people such "thinking" is totally honest (though I don't think replying that way is the best idea in most cases since a simple "thank you" is all it calls for).
In my own example there are certain things such as I broached earlier about celibacy that are in no way anything to do with "me." That is something I wanted to someday be able to do, but could never see that day arriving, lol. To have it "suddenly" happen after my trying for many months and never getting past 3 weeks at the most, was truly remarkable.
What was amazing was that “suddenly” I just never gave it another thought. And what was most remarkable was that only later did I even realize that all such "urges" suddenly vanished last July when I saw Gurinder Singh. At that point I was closing in on "2 weeks" and after seeing Him I never even thought about it again. I had several "darshan" moments including some prolonged periods, and without going into it, there were some very obvious things that changed dramatically for me after that and the "celibacy" was just one of them.
Could it be a coincidence? Sure. Did I even imagine seeing Him could affect my trying to be celibate? That never even crossed my mind. I had something completely different on my mind that day and I never even thought of that subject (on the trip there or back either).
But it was something I'd tried in vane to "overcome" until that point and ever since it hasn't even been an issue. As far as I'm concerned if it wasn't "Him," it surely was "God" and there is no way on earth "I" had anything to do with it. I had some success controlling the "urges" (to a limit) but the urges all just vanished. Now if I see a woman who is incredibly attractive I still turn my head to look before thinking “what the heck are you doing?” because it’s just a lifelong habit that now causes no reaction. They are still attractive but in the way a beautiful sunset is attractive (and as a man I’m sure you know the reaction to an incredible sunset is much different than t an incredible woman, lol). I get mad at myself when I do look though because I don’t even want to start that all again, and I know how easily it could.
So, that's just one example of me truly being convinced I had absolutely nothing to do with what studies will show anyone wanting to know, is a nearly impossible thing to "give up," especially if you're a healthy man (though it’s the same for many women as well). Whether anyone can even understand why I'd want that, or whether they believe it's crazy to want that, doesn't matter. I'm not talking about whether it is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm saying it's a nearly impossible thing. But it happened (at least so far, lol).
That's not something I've shared with anyone before these comments and I only did so to try to let people "possibly" see there's a heck of a lot more to Gurinder than how He's portrayed by most people here. (Of course the human mind being what it is, there really is no way anyone will ever believe it wasn’t just “will power” or some unknown “health problem” or “wishful thinking” or that it’d be easy to stop for 8 months although none of them could ever do the same). Whether He is a Perfect Master (yet) or not doesn't matter. The fact is He is a TON more than anyone here wants to believe.
To be honest I didn't come here to change anyone's mind. I swear I couldn't care less what anyone thinks or says about Gurinder or Charan or anyone else. I'm sure you still get occasional "newbies" who are followers of Gurinder who go "ape-chit" telling you how crazy you are and how great Gurinder is, etc., etc. But their supposedly defending "Gurinder" isn't that at all. They are strictly defending themselves.
Beginners on the Path, and that is determined by how far they've progressed inside and has nothing to do with how long they've meditated, are still very much wrapped up in ego. So anyone who says "Gurinder isn't real" is actually saying to them that they are fools for believing in Him. So they come here claiming how great Gurinder is and trying to defend "Him" because they supposedly love "Him" when in reality all they love is "themselves."
It should be clear to anyone who claims to follow His Path and to believe what He teaches that He doesn't need anyone's "help." If you think He is "one with God" then shut the heck up and go away. Nothing that is ever said here or claimed here could ever have even the slightest effect on anyone who is "one with God." But the human ego just won't let people truly grasp a truth if they have a compelling interest in its opposite.
I'm only bringing that up to try to explain why I am different than the typical "Guru Defenders" who show up here occasionally, as well as on David Lane's site. And the reason I want you to be able to understand that is so this next part might someday be able to truly hit home:
The reason I came here and started throwing all this "stuff" around was because I was driven solely by something that is completely different from a "Guru defense." I really and truly don't care in any way what anyone says about Gurinder Singh. I think some of the things I've read are downright funny, and others make me wonder about some things unrelated to whether He is “real” or this Path is “real,” but I never take anything even remotely "personally" when people take shots at "my" Guru.
In fact, the only reason I had read any of the above comments before was because I was looking for someone I could respond to in order to make more points. I see several more comments since my last post and I have no doubt that I am the focus of many of them, lol, but I just don't care what they said because I didn't come here to convince anyone or to debate anyone or to change anyone's mind. They can call me anything they’d like. What anyone chooses to label me doesn’t change anything about me. Only God knows the real “me” and he is the only One who’s “opinion” matters in the least.
YOU were my only target from the very beginning (David Lane’s name was thrown out there but I didn’t care about him at all as doing this with him would be a DEFINITE waste of time whereas, with you, I at least have some hope that it won’t prove to be the same). And that didn't come from malice or anything even close to it. When I made the comment earlier that I liked you very much I was being completely honest.
The reason I came here to make the comments I made was because, unlike David Lane, I've always gotten the impression that, maybe, you had the ability to take another look at the things you've come to believe. Maybe, deep down inside, what fueled all this came more from "disappointment" than anything related with ego (though that was what came out to counter the disappointment).
I realize I'm most likely being a complete fool, but what I see is a nice guy who had the universe in the palm of his hand and who had already given a ton of effort to something that was one day going to payoff in indescribable ways, but when he got close to finally “taking off” he decided it wasn't worth it any more and he cost himself riches beyond belief.
I know nobody is ever going to believe what they don't want to believe but I know that you very much would like to believe all you once thought, it's just that you never got anything to help you believe. I wish you were just somebody I knew locally who I could get to reexamine everything so maybe they could see areas where they might have been able to "help things along" but, unfortunately, because this blog turned into something somewhat "big" for you, the chances of that ever happening are now next to nil.
But sometimes if an idea is planted into the "right" head, it can one day grow into something powerful. Unfortunately, to have any such hope of that, the idea had to be POUNDED home. Even if you think it's an insane idea, the fact is that you are unlikely to forget it quickly. And because of that perhaps you will start looking at yourself just a little bit closer and start asking yourself what percentage of things you do or say or think, are propelled by your ego. If you look closely like I now do you will be amazed at the results (and not in a good way).
I was just reading something today that really hit home for me because it perfectly described what's been happening to me lately, and I then thought of how it likely happened to you to some extent as well. Here it is:
********** Charan Singh, From Flora E. Wood's ''Notes On Satsang'' ...
The cruder temptations of the five senses are no longer immediately deflecting [the one who is meditating's] concentration downward and out into the world, but he is being increasingly exposed to the allurements of the mind in the process of purifying itself. The Masters tell us in no uncertain terms to beware of this stage. The negative power within one will do everything possible to magnetize one back into the world planes, using all manor of subtle blandishments such as music and books, as well as the arts and sciences, selecting the most choice weapons in his armory. Within oneself he can excite an inordinate aesthetic appreciation of art and the rhythmic and beautiful progression of logic and other accomplishments of the mind. **********
He then goes on to discuss how words often seem to write themselves and similar phenomena like how you suddenly seem to be so "wise," and other things like that. When "Kal" sees he is in danger of "losing us" all kinds of abilities seem to manifest, or abilities we already have suddenly become effortless.
He wants to pull us from our spiritual pursuits and will throw countless things at us in order to do it. I'm sure you will see that as "crazy," or just another "victim of the cult" throwing around the typical "bull," but that's exactly what "the mind" wants you to think. "The mind" has you in it's vice grips right now, but you think it's people like me who are in the grips of some "cult leader."
I know that isn't going to change, at least not overnight. But I hope that maybe a tiny seed has been planted and it will some day grow so you can reap rewards well beyond your mind's ability to even imagine. You don't have to broadcast it, but just always keep that possibility open. Just to yourself. You've got a great mind so use it in both directions. Not just to find reasons not to believe, but to find reasons "to believe" as well.
I promise I have absolutely no stake in this at all other than what I know will one day make you happy beyond belief. And when I say I know, I'm not saying "I believe." Take that anyway you need to take it, but I only hope you can read that sentence with all ego pushed aside for a moment. If so maybe you will one day decide to reexamine Sant Mat. If you look very closely you will be amazed at what you find.
Anyway, my "mission" here is complete. I'm going to get back to my "cult worship" and drop all this ego-stretching I've been doing lately.
By the way, I gave your name and email address, as well as David Lane's, to someone I know who is having some incredible trouble getting initiated because of a U.S. representative who's ego would make you and I look downright humble, lol. This rep has been lying through his teeth and doing a lot more than that, and from what I can see he is single-handedly preventing a very "worthy" guy from even getting a chance to be approved. It's the strangest thing I've ever heard of re: RSSB. I've gotten a lot of the details and there is no doubt there is something seriously wrong going on.
Anyway, I don't even know if he'll contact you but he is getting pretty desperate to find someone who might have a connection or two who might be able to get his story in front of Gurinder. I told him I don't know if either of you two still know anyone at Beas, but that he might want to give you a shot. I'm not sure he'll want the story getting out, but if he gets desperate enough you'll have a killer "scoop."
If so, consider it my payoff for the unkind things I said. It'll be hard to believe, but they came from a "good" place even if they didn't seem all that "good." :)
Posted by: Cam Summers | February 27, 2012 at 09:20 PM
Nice comment Brian.
Ego cannot be eliminated. If you try, you are trying the impossible because YOU are trying to eliminate YOU. If you succeed then YOU did it. You will feel a sense of accomplishment and want to pat yourself on the back. And what is that? Oh my God! It’s EGO. Holy shit – I thought I had eliminated it.
Trying to eliminate the ego is egotistical. All you will get is a false humility. Underneath it will be hiding a strong ego. On the surface you will say “it was nothing. It is all the master’s doing.” But deep down you will feel happy because the master used YOU to do his work – how amazing does that make YOU?
That is why the speakers love doing satsang. They get attention. They love it. It is pure ego. Hence they can be manipulated by RSSB. Simply threaten to take away their ‘seva’, and they will comply with anything you ask. The sangat thinks they are listening to some advanced soul telling them about the spiritual journey from personal experience. In fact they are listening to a poor struggling satsangi who is desperately seeking attention and loves the attention, while trying to pretend he is humble.
I used to do ‘satsang’ for RSSB. I was called in for a meeting and told I must stress the importance of satsang, seva and meditation. They said they wanted ‘parrots’ to simply repeat the party line. They threatened to take away my seva. I told them I was not prepared to be a parrot and handed them their so-called seva. I wasn’t doing satsang for some merit. It was just an entertaining pastime for me. I received a letter that if I ever wanted to do satsang again, I would have to start at the local level. RSSB is full of politics and the top sevadars are just power hungry ego driven fools who have given up on the real spiritual journey decades ago.
Ask any of them about their inner progress and all you will get is silence. Why? Because they are simply robots for the RSSB organisation, implementing ‘policy and rules’.
They would not know real spirituality if they tripped over it. They are far too busy running the organisation. They never even ask themselves why they joined RSSB. Was it to get power over others or to make any progress?
To go beyond ego means the realization that there is no YOU. There is no separate self. Ego or individuality is an illusion. Hence there is nothing to eliminate. There is also no Sach Khand to get to, because WHO will go ‘there’ if there is no separate soul?
Posted by: osho robbins | February 28, 2012 at 12:38 AM
Cam wrote:
By the way, I gave your name and email address, as well as David Lane's, to someone I know who is having some incredible trouble getting initiated because of a U.S. representative who's ego would make you and I look downright humble, lol. This rep has been lying through his teeth and doing a lot more than that, and from what I can see he is single-handedly preventing a very "worthy" guy from even getting a chance to be approved. It's the strangest thing I've ever heard of re: RSSB. I've gotten a lot of the details and there is no doubt there is something seriously wrong going on.
Anyway, I don't even know if he'll contact you but he is getting pretty desperate to find someone who might have a connection or two who might be able to get his story in front of Gurinder. I told him I don't know if either of you two still know anyone at Beas, but that he might want to give you a shot. I'm not sure he'll want the story getting out, but if he gets desperate enough you'll have a killer "scoop."
Tell your friend to count himself lucky. Who needs initiation? Its just five words that you are going to repeat like a parrot for decades. Real initiation is to be on the path with a real master who will guide you to enlightenment by showing you what is preventing you from seeing the truth. Truth is already there – you just need to open your eyes. You don’t need to attain it or reach it. Anyone who tells you to “do” something to attain it is simply deluded.
If you believe your master is all knowing – how come he doesn’t know what’s going on with your friend? More to the point, does he even care? People ask questions of him in public all the time. Just get someone to ask for you, and you’ll get the standard answer. He’ll say something like “We should leave it all in His hands – he knows best. No I don’t think the rep has anything against your friend – but he has guidelines which he has to follow. He is just doing his job. We should not hinder him in doing his job.”
That’s it. That will be your answer. Gurinder has neither the time nor the inclination to get involved in your friends matter. He gets no benefit from your friend getting initiated – and he has enough on his plate looking after a growing organisation with growing property centres.
Posted by: osho robbins | February 28, 2012 at 01:17 AM
Good comment about ego Osho.
You say "That is why the speakers love doing satsang. They get attention. They love it. It is pure ego."
Reading Cam's last comment and seeing how he was actually stroking Brian's ego after complaining about ego stroking before. It really struck home that these intellectual types (both write books big whoop) became a part of the satsang hierarchy because of their intellectual ability and they don't even see their egos because they are so in love their cleverness.
Posted by: meh | February 28, 2012 at 03:04 PM
Regarding all the (unnecessarily lengthy) comments that have been posted by Cam Summers (wherein Cam presents his various assumptions, beliefs and claims, and also his stated agenda)...
My thanks and praise goes to Osho Robbins for all of his relevant and very astute comments, and especially his comment posted February 28, 2012 at 12:38 AM.
I honestly could not have addressed and articulated all the issues as well as Osho has done, so I am not even going to try.
It would behoove Cam to read and to re-read and to contemplate the understanding, wisdom, clarity and common sense that are embodied in Osho's comments here.
So if anyone wants to know what I think about what Cam believes and what he has presented to Brian and the readers, then simply read the responses that Osho has offered, all of which I agree with.
Posted by: tAo | February 28, 2012 at 03:41 PM
Here’s an actual incident that happened to me.
I was attending one of the annual ‘official’ satsangs. I was walking along happily but unknown to me I had walked on the WRONG side of a stretched rope. The sevadar asked me to walk back the ten metres and then walk on the inside of this ‘official walking line boundary’. At first I thought he was joking, but when the expression on his face didn’t match what happens after a joke, I realized he was serious.
“So you want me to turn around and walk back ten metres and then come back on that side of the rope?” I asked. He nodded. “And how exactly will that help you?” I enquired inquisitively.
“Are you refusing?” asked the RSSB police officer, getting ready to tazer me (that’s how it looked).
“Yes” I replied defiantly. “What is your center?” he asked.
I was going to say “eye centre” but decided it would not be a good time for a joke, judging by the way he was getting all worked up. “I have no centre” I replied calmly and walked off.
“You are disobeying BabaJi’s hukam” he shouted and asked me to come back and make amends. I continued to walk off into the sunset and was never seen again until the end of the satsang.
This is what sevadars are like. They love rules just for the sake of them. And for people who are supposed to be on a spiritual path they have serious control issues and huge egos since they believe they are doing God’s work and are the chosen ones. A recipe for disaster.
Posted by: osho robbins | February 29, 2012 at 02:24 AM
Meh, I see intellectuals as people who can grasp complex ideas and who think clearly in a logical manner.
Society should place great value on them as they are capable of solving problems and working out solutions.
When intellectuals can communicate, then we all benefit.
Posted by: Catherine | February 29, 2012 at 05:53 AM
You need to have a strong ego in order to progress, to have the will to learn, to discover new stuff.
At the same time, you need to be humble enough to accept new things, to be able to alter your somewhat wrong opinion about something, to acknowledge a truth when you see it.
For example, a good football player is one that has a strong ego that makes him believe in himself. However, he should be humble enough to know his own limitations, to listen to his coach and to work well in a team.
Another example would be a scientist, like Einstein, that believes in his ability to discover new knowledge, but also to know his place, be ethical, to realise that his is no God.
Your ego is not something that you need to eradicate, but rather happily accept and learn to control.
Be able to reduce it as well as increase it at will.
How, when? Noone can tell you. This is something that you need to find out for yourselves.
Posted by: jimbot | February 29, 2012 at 10:40 AM
Cam seems to put so much faith in his Guru, that he lost faith in himself.
He thinks that only the Guru and his Path can give him the answers that he needs, and distrusts everyone else.
It is not like this, Cam.
It's YOU that has all the answers, the Guru can only help you to see them.
The Guru doesn't know shit, he as lost and desperate as you are.
And you can equally get help unlocking the secrets from a self-acclaimed wise Guru, a mindless boy, just by looking at a tree, basically everyone and everything in this realm.
You do not need to follow anyone or anything, but just yourself.
Posted by: jimbot | February 29, 2012 at 10:51 AM
Having tried very hard to understand Cam's position, I understand that he once was a horny old billy goat, but now is saved.
I hope this is fair comment, thank you kindly.
Posted by: George | February 29, 2012 at 04:42 PM
If someone is telling me to go back to walk the other side of a line (like in Osho's story) than I'm not going to defend my position because it is not normal to ask something like that. They should defend their position because that position is absurd. If someone tries to crush my ego he should explain why that would help me. I'm not going to defend why I think it is unhealthy to crush an ego. If someone wants to live under mind control they should explain what spiritual gain there is in it.
The whole RSBS is full of idiotic positions and the normal people have to defend against them. That is the world upside down.
To Tara I think people have a tendency to confirm, to stop thinking and to plug into the mainstream. Most people are like that. Some are non confirming people. They think different. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. They don't fit in. They provide the new ideas and make society progress. Generally they are not rewarded until they achieve something remarkable. From their on they are followed ;) Has to do with survival in a herd.
It is also the basic algorithm of evolution. Copy copy copy, select and copy again and now and than mutate. Our thoughts are going through evolution too and are being copied from individual to individual. Than selected during discussion. And now and than strange thoughts arise in some people (very rarely). Most of the times these thought are laughed away or considered dangerous and forbidden. Some times....
Posted by: nietzsche | March 01, 2012 at 03:40 AM
Having tried very hard to understand Cam's position, I understand that he once was a horny old billy goat, but now is saved.
Not yet..He will be saved only by the grace of Perfect Living Master, but he has to sincerly obey what the master says repeatedly ..S.S.S. SIMRAN,SATSANG,SEVA & be a true Gurmukh.
Posted by: Juan | March 01, 2012 at 04:49 AM
Juan,
Why does Cam need to be saved from being a horny old billygoat? The lord or whatever you want to call 'It' put a penis and testicles on him. Are they there just for decoration, and/or as a tormenting annoyance? That morning wood is so inconvenient!
Apparantly they ARE a tormenting annoyance according to RSSB because you have to get married in order to use them. What if Cam can't find someone to marry him? In that case he will have to deal with the tormenting annoyance(sic)for life because sometimes it takes four lifetimes to overcome your tormenting annoyance. Maybe if he just slaps it around a bit it will leave him alone.
Or, he could just cut his tormenting annoyance off, like a crazy guy did on a friend's desk at a welfare office. This fellow was upset that his benefits were being discontined. Very upset.
This celibacy stuff can drive you crazy.
Shall we deny our eyes from sight, our ears from hearing, our stomachs from food?
Just don't overeat and he'll be OK. Trust me.
Posted by: tucson | March 01, 2012 at 01:49 PM
Enough of those gurus who claim to have killed their ego!
The horse can run like crazy, but can not escape from its tail.
----------------
- What do you think of the "great GurAlejandro Jodorowsky on Twitter:u?
- We are like a monkey salivating because they say that the clouds are bananas.
------
Beware of "Big" gurus. If you have the head of butter, do not rely on an oven.
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- Do you ask the Great Guru to reveal the truth?
-A beggar that begs another beggar never got rich
Posted by: Pythagoras | March 02, 2012 at 01:59 PM
Alejandro Jodorowsky on Twitter:
Enough of those gurus who claim to have killed their ego!
The horse can run like crazy, but can not escape from its tail.
----------------
- What do you think of the "great Guru?
- We are like a monkey salivating because they say that the clouds are bananas.
------
Beware of "Big" gurus. If you have the head of butter, do not rely on an oven.
-----
- Do you ask the Great Guru to reveal the truth?
-A beggar that begs another beggar never got rich
Please delete the previous
Posted by: Pythagoras | March 02, 2012 at 02:06 PM
[Note: Catherine, I've edited your Feb. 26 comment accordingly. I should have noticed this myself. Must not have been thinking very clearly at the time either. -- Blogger Brian]
feb.26 My comment. It was testosterone not progesterone. Excuse: I was making tea at the time of the programme.
Posted by: Catherine | March 03, 2012 at 01:49 AM
Tuscon quotes,
Why does Cam need to be saved from being a horny old billygoat?
.....He has been choosen by the Master to be saved.He is a True Gurmukh.
The lord or whatever you want to call 'It' put a penis and testicles on him. Are they there just for decoration, and/or as a tormenting annoyance?
Apparantly they ARE a tormenting annoyance according to RSSB because you have to get married in order to use them. What if Cam can't find someone to marry him? In that case he will have to deal with the tormenting annoyance for life because sometimes it takes four lifetimes to overcome your tormenting annoyance.
......The Master knows what is best for him.
Or, he could just cut his tormenting annoyance off, like a crazy guy did on a friend's desk at a welfare office. This fellow was upset that his benefits were being discontined. Very upset.This celibacy stuff can drive you crazy.
.....It is the Masters grace that is going to prevent him and overcome all the obstacles, nothing is going to drive him crazy,but ofcourse he will have to pay for, if not all a small part of the karmas of his past lives.
.....A true Gurmukh is above the level of mind and intellegence. He has to follow the Masters Hukum without comitting the crime of questioning WHY.
Posted by: Juan | March 03, 2012 at 01:20 PM
Juan, not asking "Why?" is what got hundreds of people killed at Jonestown, when their "guru" had them drink poison. Not asking "Why?" is what allowed the "guru" Charles Manson to lead his followers on killing sprees.
You can't be serious.
Do you really believe that someone should follow the dictates of another human being, no matter how crazy those commands are? Even in the military, unlawful or unethical orders can be disobeyed, I'm pretty sure.
Posted by: Brian Hines | March 03, 2012 at 01:44 PM