Comments on Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies dieTypePad2011-09-25T03:45:15ZBrian Hineshttps://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2011/09/church-midwife-in-oregon-believes-in-letting-babies-die/comments/atom.xml/Roger commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e8be180e3970d2011-09-28T15:31:24Z2011-09-28T18:17:29ZRogerWhat is man's concept of religion, that would be the 'root' of evil? The person, asking this question would have...<p>What is man's concept of religion, that would be the 'root' of evil? The person, asking this question would have a belief in something called evil?</p>Passerby commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e8bddb3e5970d2011-09-28T00:00:20Z2011-09-28T02:34:20ZPasserbyInteresting discussion. Parents allow a child to die because of their illogical religious belief in a sky-god, thus not seeking...<p>Interesting discussion. </p>
<p>Parents allow a child to die because of their illogical religious belief in a sky-god, thus not seeking medical care for their baby. </p>
<p>Yet, people advocate violence against doctors providing termination of unwanted pregnancy...because of their religious view that abortion is killing a fetus. </p>
<p>Perhaps, it is man's concept of religion that is the root of evil... </p>tAo commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e8bdcba25970d2011-09-27T19:57:03Z2011-09-28T02:34:20ZtAoBrian from Colorado, your arguement is pointless and absurd. it's simply a matter of common sense and human rights. common...<p>Brian from Colorado,</p>
<p>your arguement is pointless and absurd.</p>
<p>it's simply a matter of common sense and human rights. common sense dictates that individual children's lives are vastly more important than someone else's (the parents) abstract religious bias. children have fundamental rights, just as adults do. they have a basic human right to be given all possible medical assistance, to save their life. they have a right to life, a right to not die due to a lack of medical care caused by obstruction or by neglect. a child's right to life and to necessary medical care supersedes their parents narrow-minded religious beliefs or whims. period.</p>
<p>if the parents denied or obstructed or prevented the human rights of the child, and the child dies as a consequence, then the parents are guilty and responsible for causing the death of the child. period</p>
<p>and no amount of nonsense rationalizations or intellectual jugglery excuses that.</p>
<p><br />
</p>Brian from Colorado commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2015391e753c6970b2011-09-27T13:33:35Z2011-09-27T17:38:54ZBrian from ColoradoThanks for your response and your patience. Of course, I have no moral/legal argument for why allowing a child to...<p>Thanks for your response and your patience. Of course, I have no moral/legal argument for why allowing a child to die in such circumstances is acceptable, nor would I wish to assert one. But to sum things up, it would seem that your position on the question amounts to a form of "because everybody says so" - basically an appeal to collective authority. Small wonder then that you'd worry about the influence of fundamentalist idealogues on society if the definition of moral norms boils down to that. To be sure, there's an aspect of truth in thinking that way, but what's more important (in my mind, at least) is how we can respond constructively to those we disagree with, and how we find a way to live in peace in a world that, as the Taoist say, is ultimately forever out of our control. </p>
<p>I'm sure there are folks (primarily atheist philosophers in academia, I'd expect) who still make a good living chasing words about in circles on the subject of ethics and morality. But at least we can agree that it's a tricky and difficult subject in which to delve at depth. </p>
<p>BTW, I don't think I think too much; I think I think just the appropriate amount! :)</p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e8bd8fd54970d2011-09-27T04:56:42Z2011-09-27T04:56:48ZBlogger Brianhttp://www.hinesblog.comBrian from Colorado, people sometimes say to me, "Brian, you think too much." Well, I don't think I do --...<p>Brian from Colorado, people sometimes say to me, "Brian, you think too much." Well, I don't think I do -- but I might as well try this statement out on you:</p>
<p>Brian, you think too much. </p>
<p>This issue seems pretty darn simple. Laws are a reflection of a culture's collective moral judgment. Oregon law says that parents have a responsibility to provide necessary medical care to seriously ill children (for all I know, moderately ill children also).</p>
<p>A jury soon will consider whether the parents of the baby who died are guilty of child neglect. If the medical evidence shows that the baby could have been saved if treatment had been sought, rather than anointing the baby with oil and trusting in Jesus, I believe the parents are guilty.</p>
<p>What do you think? </p>
<p>Your comment above is unduly abstract and theoretical. We have laws. We make moral judgments. Philosophers and theologians can argue about the nature of morality, but the need to hold people accountable for certain actions continues on regardless.</p>
<p>If you have a moral/legal argument for why it is OK to let a baby die instead of providing medical care, because the parents believe Jesus will heal the child, I'd be interested in learning what it is.<br />
</p>Brian from Colorado commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e8bd78193970d2011-09-26T23:13:11Z2011-09-27T03:17:30ZBrian from ColoradoBut what about you, old chum? What informs your belief that saving a child's life is important in the here...<p>But what about you, old chum? What informs your belief that saving a child's life is important in the here and now? In the end, wouldn't your world view dictate that it's just a neurological function as well? In fact, isn't this view just the product of one more program call in the brain machine which randomly evolved to perpetuate mindless DNA?</p>
<p>From this perspective, and thinking more generally, what is it then that makes one view proper and right and another indecently wrong? I ask this in all seriousness and am curious about the basis you would assert for establishing the legitimacy of values. </p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2015435b6bbec970c2011-09-26T21:45:23Z2011-09-26T21:45:30ZBlogger Brianhttp://www.hinesblog.comYou used the term "evil," not me. I don't believe in evil. I believe that some people suffer from a...<p>You used the term "evil," not me. I don't believe in evil. I believe that some people suffer from a deficit of empathy. Yes, this likely is a neurological problem. But religion exacerbates it, encouraging people to accept that the imagined dictates of a distant God are more important than saving a child's life in the here and now.</p>Brian from Colorado commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2015435b6a967970c2011-09-26T21:24:24Z2011-09-26T21:45:30ZBrian from ColoradoOh, then they're not misguided, just willfully evil? Here's a brilliant book I'd recommend, (written by an exceedingly bright young...<p>Oh, then they're not misguided, just willfully evil? </p>
<p>Here's a brilliant book I'd recommend, (written by an exceedingly bright young lady with impeccable lefty creds, btw):</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Being-Wrong-Adventures-Margin-Error/dp/0061176052/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317071700&sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Being-Wrong-Adventures-Margin-Error/dp/0061176052/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317071700&sr=8-1</a></p>
<p>Ignore the blurbs; its most important message has to do with understanding how ALL of us come to believe things, and why we ALL tend to think that our beliefs are obviously self-evident, while those of our opponents can only be based on ignorance, stupidity and/or malicious intention. <br />
</p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2015391e32397970b2011-09-26T20:57:57Z2011-09-26T20:58:02ZBlogger Brianhttp://www.hinesblog.comBrian from Colorado, there's a big difference between individual and collective madness. Lots of people hate Jews, but only a...<p>Brian from Colorado, there's a big difference between individual and collective madness. Lots of people hate Jews, but only a Hitler, with the force of a collective behind him, could kill millions.</p>
<p>Yes, there are mentally ill individuals who believe, and do, crazy stuff. But the Followers of Christ church has been encouraging their members to pursue faith healing for children with serious health problems for many years.</p>
<p>Numerous children have died. There have been several indictments and trials by law enforcement authorities. This is a case of collective child abuse in the name of religion, not a case of an individual mentally ill person.</p>
<p>When I say these people are "crazy," I'm not speaking clinically -- as likely would be the correct diagnosis in the example you gave of someone who killed themselves and their child. Again, this is ongoing, considered, willful child abuse in the name of religious dogma. </p>Brian from Colorado commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2015391e317b7970b2011-09-26T20:44:24Z2011-09-26T20:58:02ZBrian from ColoradoSo, you think the likes of Ms. Keith to be effing idiots. What then? Do idiots not deserve compassion? What...<p>So, you think the likes of Ms. Keith to be effing idiots. What then? Do idiots not deserve compassion? </p>
<p>What about an atheist woman who, finding herself in very adverse circumstances, comes to believe that life is but a brief and pointless fog of pain and suffering, and so decides to kill herself and her young child in order to save them both from further misery? Would such an equally misguided person warrant similar detestation? </p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e8bd640d0970d2011-09-26T18:46:15Z2011-09-26T18:46:20ZBlogger Brianhttp://www.hinesblog.comBrian from Colorado: you're right. I detest people who let sick children die needlessly. I hope I always feel that...<p>Brian from Colorado: you're right. I detest people who let sick children die needlessly. I hope I always feel that way. It seems to me that this is a sign of my compassion. If I didn't get angry when religious zealots engage in what amounts to child sacrifice, I'd worry about myself.</p>Brian from Colorado commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2015391e277aa970b2011-09-26T18:39:08Z2011-09-26T18:41:18ZBrian from ColoradoYour hatred and contempt change nothing, Churchless, with the possible exception of your capacity for compassion.<p>Your hatred and contempt change nothing, Churchless, with the possible exception of your capacity for compassion. </p>Willie R commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2015391e157df970b2011-09-26T14:23:51Z2011-09-26T17:21:16ZWillie RI detect a certain amount of vitriol in this posting, respondents included. That goes for me, too. All of a...<p>I detect a certain amount of vitriol in this posting, respondents included. That goes for me, too. All of a sudden, I have a dog in this hunt, scheduled as I am to become a grandfather in December (much to my chagrin, unfortunately).<br />
I wish I could say that this is a non-issue for me, but I cannot. One thing I can say is that I am clueless as to an appropriate response. Life is like that.</p>cc commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e8bd01ec3970d2011-09-25T16:44:25Z2011-09-25T17:48:59Zcchttp://codgertations.blogspot.comIf we could get all the fucking idiots to quit fucking there would eventually be no idiots.<p>If we could get all the fucking idiots to quit fucking there would eventually be no idiots. </p>Michael commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2015435af5934970c2011-09-25T14:36:29Z2011-09-25T17:48:59ZMichaelThank you providing reason and highlighting the destructiveness of religion.<p>Thank you providing reason and highlighting the destructiveness of religion.</p>Catherine commented on 'Church midwife in Oregon believes in letting babies die'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e8bcf45de970d2011-09-25T13:05:34Z2011-09-25T17:48:59ZCatherineI always liked the story of the man caught on the roof of his house during a flood. he asked...<p>I always liked the story of the man caught on the roof of his house during a flood. he asked god to save him. Helicopters tried to pick him up several times, but he was waiting for god. After he drowned, he asked god in heaven why he had not been saved and god said that he had sent the helicopters several times and the man had refused their help. 'god' sends the doctors too after training them for close to a decade.</p>