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June 24, 2011


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Owah Tagoo Siam has been my mantra for years.

Ditto's from me guys..Class of 85

There are stages we go through when we leave sant mat (or any duality teachings).

Firstly - we start with duality teachings - like sant mat. We aim to get to sach khand through our actions - meditation and doing good deeds and shit like that.

Phase 2 - we realize that it's all a load of bollox (is that how you spell it?). Nobody gets there - they all simply talk about it. We become dis-illusioned.

At the end of phase two things change dramatically. We no longer believe and we no longer tow the party line.

We are no longer trying to be examples of good disciples. we don't meditate or agree with the principles taught to us.

We stand alone - on our own feet - instead of being robots for sant mat.

We begin to think for ourselves for the first time. This marks the beginning of growth.

followers of the faith will call you all kinds of names at this point because they are believers - and they follow blindly.

Phase 3: You now try to figure life out without the teachings giving you the answers.
There are a number of ways to go from here.
(1) you become an atheist - you don't believe in god or anything anymore. You double everything
(2) you take on a new belief. you follow another path - like advaita teachings. you seek the ONENESS just like you was seeking Sach khand previously. You replace gurinder with another guru.
(3) you reach a third stage which is beyond the mind. e.g. you can be moral. you can be immoral. or (3) you can be amoral.
You can believe, you can be athiest or (3) you can neither believe nor disbelieve which means you see life AS IT REALLY IS.

Phase 4 - you integrate this and become enlightened. Not a state to achieve - but a state of non-seeking. All duality drops naturally and 'truth' dawns on you. ONENESS is not a teaching or a theory - or something to attain. It is simply that which IS. There is no way and no path. Your 'truth' is not based on any teachings or anything you figured out. You cannot teach this to anyone.

Now you can of course doubt phase 4 exists. But all that means is that you are in phase 3.1 - you have decided that it's all nonsense and only science has the answers.

each person is on their own path and all other paths will appear to be wrong or incorrect to each person.

hence the discussions can get heated and the language strong because we all feel that our path is the right one.


Enjoyed the outline, many good points.

I liked,

phase 3 -

"you can neither believe nor disbelieve which means you see life AS IT REALLY IS."

---Would one in phase 4, begin to have some sort of realization, that there is much mystery in, "life as it really is."
---I mean, do we really know much about what 'anything' really is?
---I can resonate with, Life just is.

Oh Osho,

I couldn't have said it better myself!

One thing though, when you say SM is a load of bollox, well for me I realise that my thoughts and notions about it was bollox. But it did serve a need when I 'needed' it. I see it as been a step on the ladder - methaphorically speaking.

As you say, 'each person is on their own path and all other paths will appear to be wrong or incorrect to each person.'

It doesn't have to be incorrect! You just recognise that you grew out of it. It is like going from child, to teenager, to adult. Just stages if you like to call them. You also realise that people need them like you once thought you needed them -until you don't. So why argue with anyone that 'their' path is wrong. Even if you have been on it yourself, it smacks of arrogance to condemn it for others just because 'you' seen the light, so to speak.

I am reading 'Be as you Are' David Godman & Ramana for fun and one thing I came across a few minutes ago was the story of the ten men crossing the river and one, they think, is missing. They all get grief striken until they 'realise' the truth. There never was ANYONE missing! lol

Ramana says about this story:
"Such is the case with you. Truly there is no cause for you to be miserable and unhappy. You yourself impose limitations on your true nature of infinite being, and then weep that you are but a finite creature. Then you take up this or that spiritual practice to transcend the non-existent limitation. But if your spiritual practice itself ASSUMES the existence of the limitations, how can it help you to transend them?"

Is that not so true? Oh please, I just feel as if I have been hit over the head hard. lol lol.


yes - "life as it really is" is a mystery.

You simply enjoy the mystery.

We don't ever 'know' anything because it is the
mind which organises and creates the illusion of knowing.

drop the need to know and be happy to not know - and
a wonderful state of being arises.

You become like a child again. all standards are dropped.
All seeking disappears. Life is complete.

When I say sant mat is a load of bollox - I am saying it
only from the absolute viewpoint. From that viewpoint
everything I say is also a load of bollox and I agree
that I am taling total bollox too - but it's entertaining

Of course sant mat served you at the time. It also served me.

There was a time when I recited the 2 times table - and at the
time it served me. I just don't need to do it anymore.

So everything serves a certain purpose at the time.

It was a means to an end - and therefore part of the journey.

In the end you go beyond the sant mat teachings - but there was
a time when I believed every word of the teachings.

The reason to argue with someone that their path is incorrect
it not to make them 'wrong' but for thsi reason:

If they are truly seeking and they are ready - your words will
make a difference and they will see through the path they are on.

You have become part of their journey. If they would rather argue
that they are right - that is fine too.

I just play my part and I enjoy doing so. Those who are ready
understand what I am saying. Those who are not - well they are
on their perfect journey too.

I don't condemn the person - but at the same time I point out
a new viewpoint for them to consider.

The point you make at the end it subtle and it is the reason that
all practices must fail - including meditation.

The pre-supposition is that there is separation - so we need to
meditate in order to merge with God.

It pre-supposes separation.

There is no separation - the apparent separation is an illusion.

Now for someone following sant mat - they will say that we have
all been separated from God and have to merge back in.

The real journey is not to merge but to realize that ONE is all
there is - hence no journey is needed and no merging.


Well said message.

I liked,

"We don't ever 'know' anything because it is the mind which organises and creates the illusion of knowing. drop the need to know and be happy to not know - and a wonderful state of being arises. You become like a child again. all standards are dropped.
All seeking disappears. Life is complete."

well said osho,

“we know nothing” doesn’t quite sound right though. Perhaps “we cannot know nothing” is closer. However, we do know the forms nothing takes on, the world of forms, or the world as representations of “the thing in itself”. Being itself ? ... an awe struck silence unspeakable. - Oh, this beautiful awakening.

The older I get the more the question changes from - what do I know? - to

What can I remember?!

Mind is a silly thing without memory. A guru, the 5 holies, the entire Path- thing must be re-called, reconstructed.

Guru? What guru?

sant mat has created an incorrect concept about what a guru is all about.

The sant mat concept is that he is a saviour:
(1) All knowing
(2) perfect (hence the term Perfect Master)
(3) All powerful - able to eradicate karmas
(4) saves his disciples by coming at death
(5) All merciful and forgiving
(6) a good person (moral)
(7) God incarnated in a human body

This is incorrect. The real meaning of a Guru is someone who has realized the truth and can facilitate you by being a catalyst.

In order to get any benefit from the guru - the disciple has to be receptive. This means the disciples has to choose the master - he has to create a unique trust that is not based on logic or reason.

This is the dangerous part of the spiritual path because if the master is not genuine he will simply use the disciple for his own purposes. If he is genuine - he will do what it takes to get the disciples to realize the truth for himself.

The master's function is to push the disciple beyond his limitations - beyond his mind. It has to be a personal journey - not something that can be done as a correspondence course.

Just talking won't do it - meditation won't do it - being a good person will not do it.

It' not about belief.
see this 3 min video by Osho

I have read a lot of Osho's books and used to find them amazing.

I loved in 'Autobiography of a Spiritually Incorrect Mystic' how he wasn't afraid of anyone in authority, parents, teachers.....he didn't care what people thought of him. He cut through the whole cultural/religious dogmatic system.
I laughed hard at some of his comments to 'authority', adults and teachers. Nobody could match his 'daring' courage.

His early life was great to read. Three quarter way through the book, I lost heed because there just seemed to be something missing!

I find he did have very helpful and interesting things to say, but if he was alive today would I 'follow' his advice/direction? No. He seems to have done a lot for people, though there has been a lot of gripe towards some of his activities in his ashram.

Regarding teachings, spiritual masters etc, no matter who you follow or don't, who you listen to or don't, what method you use or not, if your intention is for truth/reality nothing can stop you. It is like anything in life. If I am looking for scissors (which I was the other day) anybody can tell me, look here, look there or suggest we will buy a new pair later when we go to the shop, it doesn't matter what anyone says or whether I take their advice or not, I will find them (and did) because that was my intention.


Osho wrote about 1000 books. Also (as he himself often used to say) - he never wrote a single book. Why? because all his books are transcriptions of his talks. Just like Kirpal did with 'morning talks'. Kirpal did a series of talks and they became the book.

There is not a lot of repitition in his books becauase any 'authentic' realized person will never answer the same question in the same way. Why? because that is what a 'teacher' does. A teacher has a fixed teaching. Like sant mat does: 2.5 hours meditation; no meat, no eggs; life a moral life.

Osho did not have any teachings. He was not a 'teacher'. You can only be a teacher if you have something to 'teach'. Osho had nothing to teach. Radha soami satsang appoints various spkeakers to give talks because there is a specific teaching to impart. Anyone can impart that teaching - because it takes no wisdom to say "meditate 2.5 hours; don't eat meat; attend satsang."

Osho was a master - and a master's function is different. He takes you on a journey - not tell you about a journey. Reading all of Osho's books will only 'educate' you. And Osho is against that education. He will be the first to tell you to drop the knowledge.

Knowledge becomes the barrier because you know 'about' truth. Knowing about truth and being truth are two different things. Knowing about 'truth' you become a scholar of it. You know all the facts and details. You can discuss. Yet the simple fact is - you have never 'tasted' truth. Your knowledge is all useless. You have created lots of concepts about it - and this gives you the illusion of 'knowing'.

A bit like a person who reads a lot about love. He can write volumes on it. Yet he has never fallen in love even once. The day he falls in love for real - he will see that all his knowledge was pointless.

The master's function is to take you to truth - not give you ideas about it. He does not take you there by telling you to meditate. He takes you there by shattering all the ideas you have collected.

He only does this for those in his inner circle (his initiates). Initiation means to be let into the inner circle. Only a seeker who commits can become a disciple. A master only works with a disciple.

Why is this the case? because he has to push you beyond the limitations you have created. And nobody likes to be pushed. However, without the push - nothing happens. We all choose the path of least resistance - the easiest path. We all like to do it 'my way'. Truth cannot be reached 'my way' simply because 'I' am the barrier. The way I think - the way I live - the way I act - these are the barriers and limitations that I have created and they will not allow me to go beyond.

To be a disciple means to trust and let the master do his work. His work is to break you down - until you have no more answers. You think you are wise, clever and a good person.

A master will show you that you are neither wise, nor clever and definately not a good person. In fact he will show you that you have no idea what you are talking about and that you are a complete fucking idiot. There is no way you can become truly wise until you first face and embrace your idiocity. You cannot experience the truth while you hold lots of ideas 'about' it.

You have to let go of all the ideas - become empty - before there is any possibility of realizing the truth. Otherwise you will miss the whole point. You will collect information about the truth and never realize it. There are many who go to a master who do just this.

They know all the information - but something is missing. What's missing is the 'realness' and realness cannot be taught.

Read a book called - The velveteen Rabbit. It's on the internet for free - just google it. It's about being 'real' as opposed to being 'a toy'.

Right now - you are a toy. You are a programmed robot. You are a machine - pretending to be alive. But all you are is a function. Yet you think you are so clever.

Waking up happens when you meet a master and he destroys yous comfortable world. He destroys everything you have spent decades creating. He doesn't add enlightenment to what you already have. He destroys everything first. And only in that empty space can enlightenment arise.

It cannot arise while there is a YOU hiding behind the curtains just waiting to claim it as YOURS! This is why it is said that YOU cannot be Enlightened. Enlightenment means the death of 'YOU' who wanted to claim it.

you wrote: there seemed to be something missing.

YES - there is something missing. You cannot get it from a book. Only when you go meet a master for real can the 'something missing' be found.

Then you say - if he was alive today - would I follow his advice/direction - no!

What you don't get is precisely this. Osho was asked that if HE was a seeker - would he follow Osho? He laughed - I would not be so idiotic as to follow an idiot like me.

Why did he give that answer? because he does not give any advice or direction. He gets you to open your own eyes - so you no longer need any advice.

You cannot find truth just because it is your intention. Why? Because the very way in which you seek it will become the barrier. The ego (the sense of I) cannot experience the ONENESS because the very existence of the ego is the only barrier to being the ONENESS.

ONENESS means no more individuality (the I). No amount of 'looking for' the ONENESS will enable you to find it. A master comes along and destroys YOU - (which is not an easy process because you fight for it to remain alive) - and BANG - it happens. There is only ONENESS. There is only YOU. nothing except YOU exists.

Nothing you say will make any sense to anyone else because they have to BE it. So at most they can collect your words and TRY to destroy the I (which can never happen). So they have ideas about it.

That is all that happens when a master leaves. We have his words and stories. We try to understand his meaning. Nobody gets it. Why? because now you need another master who will awaken you by destroying your 'I'.

Hi Osho, thanks for your comments.

Thanks for your comment above. Being honest, it was a few years back when I read a lot on Osho. I think I resonated with him because I loved his courage - going against the grain, something I really admire the way our culture/society is set up. Though saying that, I am wondering if there is something in me that is saying these things should not be the way they are?(culture and society)Arguing with what is!

I loved rebellion in my former years(and still can do, to a lesser degree) so much so, when I was in counselling the lady who I went to was very soft, used nice language and told me I was great to ‘come through what I had come through’. This did not seem helpful to me so I suggested to her that maybe I would be better off with her partner in the counselling business, who was known to be harsh – in other words he would say to some of his clients ‘wake the fuck up and stop playing the self-pity game!’ I liked that. She wouldn’t do it that is ‘hand me over to him’. If it was now, years later if I was in that position, I would insist!

But Osho using nitro oxide and sex parties? (At the end, his final days)
Bernadette Roberts has interesting essays on this kind of ‘being led astray’ thing or having something really good but end up getting caught up in an ‘archetype’.

I think what I read that led me to this assumption was something about sex going on in his ashram where he 'seemed' to try and bring out their 'natural' sex state, just didn’t do it for me.
There are just too many ‘stories’ of how Osho wasn’t what he said he was – in other words, he talked the talk but in some cases, didn’t walk the walk.
Here is an interesting article on Ohso regarding nitro oxide for those who are interested.


Osho, you say Rajneesh wasn’t a teacher but a master. Same difference in this regards. He did also ‘teach’ maybe not in the traditional style. He did have an ashram, ‘organisation’ too, and rules and nice cars. Nothing wrong with that. But that is what he did.

Osho seemed to have an intent to ‘change the world’ which is going to take more than an ‘Osho’. Life is as it is. All inclusive.
Saying that, he had some really good things to say,(and I do still like him) just like people here on the blog and one thing is for sure, on my knowledge about anyone – I know, that I don’t know!

I liked what you say Osho:

“Knowledge becomes the barrier because you know 'about' truth. Knowing about truth and being truth are two different things. Knowing about 'truth' you become a scholar of it. You know all the facts and details. You can discuss. Yet the simple fact is - you have never 'tasted' truth. Your knowledge is all useless. You have created lots of concepts about it - and this gives you the illusion of 'knowing'.”

Yes the truth doesn’t change but words used in trying to describe this undescrible Truth, constantly changes. Because nothing can describe it.

Osho you said:
“YES - there is something missing. You cannot get it from a book. Only when you go meet a master for real can the 'something missing' be found.”

I agree, you cannot get it from a book; though a book can be a pointer. Take a map for instance. You can get direction/pointers for the place you want to reach from a map [something missing] which will point you the ‘right’ way, but no matter how much you study the map, it wont’ take you there. Even if you study the map [books] all your life! All ends up being nothing but ‘useless’ knowledge. You can ask 100 people[books] if you are on the ‘right’ track. You can take all their advice on board. You can take some on board. You can criticise others, saying they haven’t got a clue – they are wrong, deluded. You can disbelieve them all and you can be a non-believer, which is fine if you want to stand on your own two feet. (just being careful that you don’t become ‘closed’ and stuck in that position wandering around thinking you have arrived at your destination but you have arrived only at a mirror image, an idea, a concept.) You can be gullible and insist that your directions ,[path] is the only way to the place you are going. (arrogance)
Just allow everyone to decide for themselves which direction [path] they want to be on....(even if they DO think it is THEIR decision, as if they ever did have a choice)

You say Osho in your previous post:
“The real meaning of a Guru is someone who has realized the truth and can facilitate you by being a catalyst.”

I see that. In fact, if we are open anyone can be a catalyst, as you yourself have said. Even if you don’t agree with someone, they too can be a catalyst – if you are open. Just like yourself Osho[catalyst for me], after looking at your Victimitis video – wham! Does that mean that I now cling onto everything you say as gospel? No offence Osho, but no. To throw ourselves at someone, is not the answer or solution.

Sometimes I may agree with you, and other times I don’t. Maybe if we had a face to face discussion which would be more real and less limiting than posting on a blog, it may come to the point where we are indirectly saying the same thing. But on a blog it is hard because there are a lot of ‘blanks’ which each of us fill in.

Nobody has the full truth or has more truth than others. It just doesn’t work that way.

As you said in a previous post about the man and the devil going for a walk and the man says to the devil, ‘are you not worried that someone has picked up a piece of truth?’ The devils answer, ‘no, "because I know he will turn it into a conclusion, a belief or a religion." He is going to miss the truth again - and just be left with the empty shell.

Osho I just did a quick search and read the wiki comment on ‘The Velveteen Rabbit’. A beautiful, beautiful story. Have you seen the film version? If you have, can you suggest a good version?

Sometimes Osho I think I am the rabbit and there is a sense in me (self doubt) and feel most of the rabbits are against me and laughing at me and I have this sense, that I need to change or ‘fix’ their opinion of me :) I don’t know why I put a smiley face at the end of that because I could actually bawl crying. I want the Nursery Magic Fairy to kiss me...


I have just downloaded 'The Velveteen Rabbit' Osho on my kindle and the very first word that it starts with is:

"HERE was once a velveteen rabbit, and....."

Does that very first word not say it all?
HERE, instead of the usual start of a story which usually goes - There once was......
which can make something seperate, out there.

One BIG eye opener, and right at the start, and so easily missed.

No wonder I love Anthony De Mello stuff, as I am sure you all are aware of his stories.
Stories sometimes portray a 'truth' or something very close to a 'truth' by being objective.

Thanks again Osho for pointing the book in my direction....

Marina :)

I dnt really know why you all guys like complex things, may be the intellect overpowers soul and vicious circle of mind starts.
Once one is initiated, the guru and disciple bond becomes permanent. I know this person who after initiation started to drink and abuse master. One day he put kerosene oil on himself while he was drunk and threatened his family that he will immolate himself. by accident he caught fire. his body suffered 60% burns. He screamed in pain, "master save me have mercy master" wat he used to see was shadow of 5 sardars. And his pain was horrific. For 40 days, this continued and then he died. Sant Mat is like walking on sword, if ur initiated dnt try to do those actions, which will make u suffer even more.

AB, I can assure you that my intellect is much simpler than yours. My mind no longer is filled with false beliefs about God, guru, soul, spirit, reincarnation, and all that conceptual stuff.

I go through life quite simply. I'm making coffee right now. Soon I'll drink a cup. Then I'll make breakfast. And later go through the rest of my day. Pretty damn simple.

Dear A B,
Where was Sawan Singh when Julian Johnson,
author of Path of the Masters, was brutally
knocked down by another satsangi holding a shotgun and killed
by hitting his head at the Dera?

Where was Jagat Singh when his wife

attempted suicide off a tower at Beas
and his son actually succeeded in committing suicide ?

The Guru cannot even help his own family,
how is he to help you ?

AB, and all of this wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been initiated. No rebellion, no anxiety, no guilt, no threat, no mistake, no pain, no suffering, no early death!

AB C D picture
M N O picture
O I C D picture.

Another case of a psychotic person in santh mat.
Posable caused by a lack of B vitamin and Omega 3 in his diet in combination with an unhealthy satsangi environment that confused his emotions and manipulated him out of finding real help.

Dear AB,

It seems as if you have not really done any research into the history of what you are following, if you do, then could you kindly answer all of Mike Williams' questions?

Can you also answer :

why Swami Shiv Dayal Singh ji didn't have a guru?

Why he smoked 'Hookah'?

Why he became a ghost and possessed Bukki ji?

Furthermore, you talk about initiation. I'm assuming you mean the initiation as given in the Radha Soami path. Do you know where the 5 names come from? Who they belong to?

Hey fellow screwups in the meditation thang
go to www.rssb.org
or [email protected]

and tell me that the RSSB is doing something wrong?

I have been following RSSB for 29 years with good results whats the problem?

No light,no sound no spirituality?

You gave up too soon.

Just get back on the horse and walk on. I fell off it many times.
All the masters just give you so much support, like at an AA or NA meeting.

Anyway we are all attached to our Master who initiated us FOREVER...whether we deride,denounce...end of day our soul is HIS..we all know that.

The mind will do anything to "use scag,suck meth,drink ,screw ,slander,publish faecal thoughts...right"

End of the day clean living,meditation,loving the inner path loving our whole world, the universe is what we are all destined to do.Despite the words to the contrary.

We are all gonna die ,what words will we repeat as we prepare to exit?

Hi Im going to Beas this October and I am inviting all of you to join me.Whats wrong afraid of a little Beas satsangs, hot chickies,-hey we are all f-------d up.
None of us is perfect right.

think about it 3 weeks of free food,free accomodation.

Meetings 2x day Q & A with Baba ji about spiritual and non spiritual probs. Sewa, they even got sports field to get fit on....best time to get clean is be around non users right?

Who knows some of the spirituality might get in.

I invite allof my brothers sisters who are initiated by Huzur or Baba Ji to come ok?

Go on who care if you havent seen light heard sound-your FAMILY so book.

See you there.October -Nov then theres Dec-Jan Jan -Feb-Feb -Mar-Mar -April.......

Much better to look baba ji in the eyes and tell him personally what your beef is dont you reckon?

better than writing a whole lot of slander, abuse him face to face...in Beas! lol....

I write to him monthly ask him all sorts of questions at Beas, hes very funny and direct.

I asked Huzur Maharaj heaps of questions too in Feb -April 1984

Funny he was threatenned with assassination too..some people dont like these Masters eh ?

No ideas why do you ?

Anyway the invite stands for as long as we are able to travel ...come on over .

Ruhari Abdullah Sawan Singh writes:

"go to www.rssb.org or [email protected]"

-- why? for what? I'm not buying the kind of crap they are selling.

"tell me that the RSSB is doing something wrong"


"I have been following RSSB for 29 years"

-- i'm so sorry to hear that.

"with good results whats the problem?"

-- what results?

"You gave up too soon."

-- you've hung on too long.

"Just get back on the horse and walk on."

-- I don't ride horses, i ride a Harley.

"I fell off it many times."

-- yeah, you must have hit your pin-head and damaged your pea-brain.

"All the masters just give you so much support, like at an AA or NA meeting."

-- I don't need AA or NA. I happen to like my booze and drugs.

"we are all attached to our Master who initiated us FOREVER"

-- no, YOU are the one who is "attached". and nobody has any 'mastery' over me. I bow to no man. and "forever" is just an idea in your twisted mind.

"end of day our soul is HIS..we all know that."

-- No, my "soul" belongs to no one, but ME. and so I have no part in your sick mentality or your insane beliefs.

"The mind will do anything to "use scag, suck, meth, drink, screw, slander, publish faecal thoughts"

-- thats YOUR twisted reality, not mine. I don't do that sort of thing.

"loving our whole world, the universe is what we are all destined to do."

-- then why don't YOU do that? you hypocrite.

"We are all gonna die, what words will we repeat as we prepare to exit?"

-- ask yourself that.

"Im going to Beas this October and I am inviting all of you to join me."

-- I'm so sorry to hear that. you must be crazy to waste your time groveling like a slave in a cult.

"we are all f-------d up. None of us is perfect"

-- talking about yourself again?

"I invite allof my brothers sisters who are initiated by Huzur or Baba Ji to come ok?"

-- No thanks, I have better things to do with my time.

"look baba ji in the eyes and tell him personally what your beef is"

-- I wouldn't bother wasting my time on that stupid mofo.

"abuse him face to face...in Beas!"

-- he isn't even worth the trouble. and he is going to get whats coming to him anyway. the apocalypse will make sure of that. i'm sure glad im not in his shoes. the harder they come, the harder they fall.

"I write to him monthly ask him all sorts of questions at Beas"

-- pathetic.

"some people dont like these Masters eh ?"

-- some ancient chinese wisdom: 'if you ride high up in a gilded carriage, then you invite hatred, thieves and robbers.'

"The mind will do anything to "use scag, suck, meth, drink, screw, slander, publish faecal thoughts"

---could someone explain what 'suck' means?
I don't know much about stuff.

Guys, relax. It isn't so important. We can and like to meditate? Do it. We don't like it or can't do it, do something else. That's it. It's really simple.

For those of you who like this practice, keep on doing it. No sweat. For those who don't, don't do it. If you're frustrated, it doesn't mean this practice doesn't lead anywhere or have any value. If you're smiling, keep smiling.

PB, read RS Tradition(Lane)and RS Reality (Jeurgensmeyer) online. History speaks loudly regarding methods and character.

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