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May 23, 2011


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Hey Brian, thanks so much for taking the time and trouble to read and review The Ultimate Twist. I love how you integrated the tango stuff with the review. Did I write that line about all obstacles dissolving? It's good! Anyway I really, really appreciate it because even if there's no "time" and it's all just this endless moment and all efforts are equally valid, time certainly appears to be quite precious.

Suzanne, I'm glad you liked my liking. I could have said more. Or, less. But here's some more...

I liked how you didn't proclaim, "This is HOW IT IS! Glory be!" You said how you look at life now. I can't really understand that saying. Nobody can. Probably not even you.

All I can do is appreciate how you tried to convey what can't be conveyed, how you attempted to explain what is unexplainable.

Sometimes I have the feeling that I've grasped what life is all about. Then, thankfully, that feeling passes. "Thankfully," because when I think I've got it, almost certainly I haven't.

Your book has a lightness, humor, and indirectness to it which indicates that, like I said, you don't take yourself all that seriously. And to me, that makes you a seriously good writer.

I'll send you that check today.

Between Duality and Nonduality

What was the difference between U. G.
Krishnamurti and Jiddo Krishnamurti ?

They were both master jnanis. Both
had the same philosophy. In fact, U. G.
said his talks repeated 90% of Jiddo's

Then what was the difference ?

There was a huge difference. U.G. was
bitter. Jiddo was always happy.

Jiddo could actually FEEL reality
in his being. This FEELING created
fulness. The FEELING overwhelmed him.

And, Jiddo told others they could have

U. G. denied this feeling existed and
therefore called Jiddo Krishnamurti
the biggest fraud of the 20th century.

U. G. thought this was a manufactured
creation of Jiddo.

U. G. was wrong. U. G. never obtained

Both Jiddo and Ramana Maharshi both
had this FEELING. Yogananda called
Ramana's state of being as Nivakalpa
Samadhi. Yogananda was wrong, as he
associated Ramana's state as a yogic state.

The FEELING is not Satori, or Nivakalpa.

The state of Ramana and Jiddo was not a yogic
state. It was SOMETHING entirely different.

Often people think they have obtained enlightenment
if they KNOW they have no self. Enlightenment
is the actual REALIZATION of no self.
Huge difference. The experience the state.

So, there are those who talk of jnani
and those whom experience jnani.

But, there is no bliss, or other occult nonsense.
They see movement, but no one moving the movement.
No one is experiencing.... the experience.

But, lets say the Zen master is experiencing
the state of no self and has full enlightenment.

This is the U. G. Krishnamurti state.

But, Ramana Maharshi and Jiddo Krishnamurti's
were so far advanced beyond this, that its
almost comprehensible.

Full enlightenment IS NOT THE END GAME.

Nor is satori, or nivakalpa.

In fact, enlightenment and satori and nivakalpa
have gotten us no where.

They are absolutely worthless. Childs play.

But, the FEELING, (or TRANSMISSION as Ramana
called it) are the only thing worth having.

The FEELING is a merging that can be FELT.

Not seen, or heard, nor bliss.

Ramana told us we already have it now.
But, how can that be if we can't FEEL
it now ? This is the greatest question.

We can only be truly happy when we MERGE
into reality. We can not be happy having
the correct knowledge of reality, or
even the correct perception of reality.

Is a fish ever happy out of water ?

We are all fish out of the water.

Deep down our greatest inner instinct
is to get back in the water.

We must FEEL the water to be happy.

Everything you have ever been taught from
Zen to Radhasoami to Advaita, will absolutely keep
you away from the FEELING.

The FEELING has nothing to do with God.

Lucky is the one who MERGES into the FEELING
or PRESENCE before death.

Nothing you have been taught can prepare
you for the logic.

The reason you can't find the FEELING
is not because it is so complex you
could never figure it out.

The reason you can't find the FEELING
is because it is so simple that it
would never cross your mind.

When you die, do you want correct
jnani logic, or do you want to have
already FELT reality, so that you
are already in it ?

Where is the fear of death then ?

Inside, outside, duality, non duality
all sounds like kids using crayons
in pre school.

Can one go beyond death before dying ?

No, not die while living... but go
past death .... while living.

When you die, you will go nowhere
except where you already are.

Therefore, the FEELING must be
with you at death, where you die,
if you are to be happy even while dying.

Again, if Jiddo Krishnamurti and Ramana
Maharshi told you this FEELING is with
you right now and can be FELT RIGHT NOW
and even requires no effort to FEEL it,
why aren't you FEELING it right now ?

It only takes a split second.

But, the Gurus and masters have brainwashed
you into thinking it is impossible.

THAT's the only reason you can't FEEL
it right now.

The only reason you can't find it when
your looking all around, is because it
is sitting right on top of your head.

Have you ever looked for your glasses
when they are already on your face ?

You have been hypnotised onto believing
it can't be FELT NOW.

You will insist its impossible, when in
fact it can be experienced at this very moment.

But, you won't even take a second to do it !

At the count of ten ..... you will AWAKE.


Thanks Brian for this new post. I was wondering where to put this and hey, here seems a good spot.


Looking at this whole RS business, it has become clear to me why I have confusion regarding RS/SM.

Those who like Osho (Robbins) videos on RS versions may find it interesting to look at Osho’s video on “Victimitis”. Here is the link for anyone who is interested: (And no, I’m not getting any commission off Osho ))


Osho the word victimitis is actually in wiki.answers and is explained thus:

"The ability to avoid ever, EVER admitting error or mistake. A person infected with victimitis infinitis is superior and perfect and never makes mistakes. Any problem with the victimitis' personal circumstances -- debt, low wages, broken car, poor health, accidents -- is always due to the negligence and/or maliciousness of someone else.......... Since victimitis infinitisi truely believe in their own superiority and victimhood, many casual friends are drawn into the victimitis infinitis pity party and may join the victim in castigating or attacking the evil "them."

I personally would see victimitis as not taking responsibility for creating my life the way it is. It is blaming someone else for why we are suffering or not happy – out of our OWN choice and labelling things, therefore becoming a victim and losing our power to others (ah seeing two when really there is only one – which I will give a personal example of later).

As Osho explains in the above video, events happen and we create – out of our OWN choice, to give it a meaning. We believed we have been wronged in some way and we are the victim. He gives the example of boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife whatever had an affair, in other words they cheated on you and because of this you are a victim. So you blame them, and because of them, your life is all screwed up now because you can’t get on with your life now, you trusted that person, you’ll never trust anyone again and on and on....................

When I watched Osho’s video it just hit the nail on the head.

Regarding my own experience (which I made into the deadly disease of ‘victimitis/) with my father and the abuse I had mentioned in previous blogs, I had for years – more than I care to remember, seen myself as a ‘victim’. I felt self pity, poor me, no wonder I am screwed up, being abused since I was 5 yrs young up until I was 18 and in between that time when I was 15, was ‘made’ travel to another country to have an abortion and it is because of this abuse that I went on to create experiences reacting from this belief of being a victim and feeling I sure have been dealt a rotten hand and seem to be that only one........ Or so I have thought! Ha. How one can fool oneself!

I actually called my dad today on the phone and told him I didn’t forgive him.............

But before getting into that I must go back a bit to the time when I went over to see him a few years ago - he moved to a different country 24 years ago to get away from charges that were being brought up against him at that time. (And he has never come home)

My reasons for going were, I suppose you could call it confront him, for him to say he was sorry and to have him say it was all his fault and I wasn’t to blame. Funny (as in strange) I never was really angry with him at all. Years spent at counselling and yes I could tell my ‘story’ and tell it well, but as much as I tried I never could get to the stage of ‘hitting pillows’ or’ screaming’ or even being very upset with him. I did try saying to myself that I was supposed to but it never worked and always left me with a sense of guilt and shame that I was wrong.

I suppose looking back, I was more interested in someone saying ‘oh poor you, that must have been terrible for you’ or words to that effect. Oh yes, I revelled in the sympathy I was getting and it give me a great feeling of ......can’t come up with the actual feeling but the thoughts were ‘they think I am a great person after all I have been through’! ) lol

I always use to think I was repressing ‘stuff’ and confess that to the counsellor (s) as I had heard it that many times. It was like; this is what you are supposed to feel and do, the ‘norm’. But as I couldn’t get angry, that just fitted into my belief again of not being normal or something wrong with me.

EVERY counsellor I have ever been to, and there is a lot of them, told me that I was not to blame that all the blame was on him. How WRONG!!! No wonder I went from counsellor to counsellor as something deep down was still nagging me. Oh yes, I did feel a whole lot better, my life was now kinda ‘normal’ but something was STILL missing.

I was at the stage of believing I suppose in karma, what goes around comes around and had no problem with that – except that this sense of feeling bad, not as good as, needing validation and approval, something wrong with me, feeling guilty with even little things in life and a lost sense as I didn’t know who I was and I thought everyone else did or it seemed that way to me.

But anyway, he did say he was sorry to me years back and told me not to blame myself, which I had been doing........

Even THAT, didn’t get rid of this subtle feeling of fear, not good enough, feeling bad, guilty in a lot of situations. Hell, I was my own worst enemy and boy was my life a reflection of that. What I want to see I saw, what I believed I experienced.

About 4 years ago I listened/read Byron Katie and she said question your beliefs – is it true?

I remember her doing the ‘is it true’ with one girl who was abused and asking ‘do you know for 100% proof that your father abused you?’ And the next question was ‘could it be just as true that you abused him?’ Well at the time, I couldn’t get my head around it. How could it be true or possibly true that I could have abused him?

Well over the years different things must have sank in because a few weeks ago I was just telling my friend that it was as much my fault as my fathers. She got a bit enraged and I tried to explain that I chose safety (of family) security and approval over the truth. Now what was the truth? It was unknown to me but it felt like it could be family splitting up, mammy being angry with me and blaming me.....

To explain this a bit better, when dad had first intercourse with me I cried and told him to stop that he was hurting me. I begged and pleaded but he told me to ‘shut up and stop crying’. When all was over, on the way home (as we were in his car), he was saying that he was going to go to a different country and we would never see him again. He seemed angry. My internal response was screaming ‘GO, I wish you would go’ but I found myself saying ‘please don’t go daddy’; saying the right thing so I wouldn’t get into trouble. (Ironically that is what happened 13 years later anyway :))So the truth was I wanted him to go away but I valued security more, so I made a choice. And I can see I have always made the choice. I experience intercourse with my father and chose to make that mean I was bad, there is something wrong with me, I am guilty, I am to blame. What stopped me telling mammy – fear, fear of what might happen. Daddy may go away and it would be my entire fault. Mammy might blame me.

So as Osho says in his ‘victimitis’ video, we all have experiences and create what that experience means, and YES, WE GET TO CHOOSE WHAT IT MEANS! Osho gives a brilliant example of it (way better than me)

When I saw Osho’s video, even though I was along the same lines, it was the catalyst for as I say hitting the nail on the head.

So back to telling my father I didn’t forgive him; silence on the other end of the phone......................... then I said because ‘there is nothing to forgive and I don’t judge you.’ I told him it was what I made it mean that hurt me, what I said it meant to myself. I had told myself it meant something bad about me and have lived out my life through that identity. Placebo effect or maybe I should say nacebo effect– believe and it shall be.
This followed right into school life, social life ........ I had sown my seed and it was being fulfilled.

Another point on the video on forgiveness is; there is no one to forgive. To say you will forgive someone, means you have made them wrong and put yourself in a superior place or one of ‘I am a good, spiritual person, or whatever; more ego.

As Osho says, yes things happen, but the meaning I give to it was something I was doing – always and ever was. How can I ever be a victim again? There is no one to blame and never was.
” There is never anyone in the other boat.”

The point of my ‘story’ is, we all do it. It is easy finding out as all we have to do is look at who we are blaming, who we are pointing fingers at, we are also doing it to ourselves.

Did I stop and ask myself how I took the experience and made up what that experience or event meant. Did I add on to reality?

What meaning did I give to RS and BJ? Did it mean I was saved and had no responsibility for myself? Did it mean I belonged to an elite group?

Yep, time to question the meanings/beliefs I gave to things and that I CHOOSE, even if it was believing some ‘bullshit’ as people might say. Well did I ask what this ‘bullshit’ actually meant or was I happy with the explanation given or the one I gave it or what I wanted it so badly to mean???

That’s what I mean when I say how do we communicate, not just with others but with ourselves. How do we communicate events/experiences to ourselves? What does it MEAN???? Should i scrap this???

I think back to the movie ‘Inception’ which was basically about false worlds within false worlds within reality – all made up. Well that’s how I took it and it has been a few years since I seen it.

But even that had an effect on my then. Now I can see it a clearer – I have this real part of me and then I add stories onto it and more stories of what it all means and before I know it I am living in a world within a world within a world; all made up, make believe, fantasy, unreal, false.......

Also Brian’s question made me question ‘what made you – the reasons we give for what we do’. Oh how that went deep in me! I see everything was pointing back here....... like something saying come home, come home, you haven’t really lost yourself.

Also I think it was tAo and Tucson who said ‘I had lost myself’. I fully agree; lost in meanings and beliefs .

Drama who needs it!!!

As you quoted Suzanne; ”Perhaps if there is nowhere to go and no one to get there, every obstacle dissolves.

I would put it this way, perhaps if there is nothing to fix and no one to fix it, every obstacle dissolves.

Or to quote Brian from some blog:”But there's also something unspecially special about not viewing life through a Meaning Magnifying Glass.

I would see it as ‘also something really real about not viewing life through a Meaning Magnifying Glass’ (call it reality)

So what advice do I give to myself? “WAKE UP MARINA, and smell the ‘coffee’, or ‘roses’ or ‘poop’(now c’mon, we all do this and we do like the smell of our own – if we admit it!)

Just to say folks if anyone has a comment to make, whether agreeing or disagreeing please feel free to put it out there (it may help me see if there is something there that I need to be aware of) if not, no worries :)))

Marina :)

I read the interview and I do recognize some of the experiences Suzanne describes but I only experienced it in the early morning when I was half asleep. I got the same feeling about the grand illusion of life of good and bad of fear and everything else. I knew for absolutely certain that I was not afraid by example that it was not me that was sometimes afraid during the day time, fear had nothing to do with me. How stupid I was. But this experience was only during the early morning hours, though some of it remains. I like to call this the essence that I am, before the existence that I am. Just like the existentialist describe it. From the interview I get the feeling Suzan is experiencing this all the time?
When I went into RSSB they told me that this self realization is only the first step and that God realization would become the next step. I believed that a long time to be truth and did the stupid meditation believing that there was more than this....
Now I don't think God exists, perhaps as another illusion but not in an important way. So there is no reason to realize the God illusion or whatever. Does this make sense?

Not sure why Mike, but I like your post.

Marina :)

Even the seeming obscuration is still only that.Sailor Bob

Suz...whats your families take on your book ?

A father should be safe right?
Maybe you want to call it different from victimitis,but some things make scarfs, even if not blaming the abuser.
Even when one loves the ''abuser''!
The scarf is there...!!
Do'nt deny that,that would'nt help you.
What is wrong is wrong!!
A father should never touch a child ,in that way,NEVER...
Then he is sick!
The outcome is a child what has a difficult way of seeking a straight forward path.
One can find it back,but it's not so easy..
We all know that.
Living in the here and now helps..
In my case..scarfs are scarfs..
denying makes things worse in my experience.
To just live with it, is better and more honest.

Marina perhaps it requires letting go of everything you think about yourself, your identity. Try to become the repressed young girl again that is flirting with all men like she should. Nothing wrong with her or her sexual desires. Perhaps finding her back might heal? Letting her grow in to an adult might be the missing part? Just guessing and hope this helps and doesn't hurt.
ps it looks like I ignored your posting but I was not aware of it making my former post ;)

It is surely the case that we ARE what we seek therefore seeking to become what we are makes no sense - we are THAT (oneness, totality) which includes the very seeking.

But, this popular assertion overlooks a crucial element. We may already be THAT, but the direct recognition/seeing of this is clearly not the case (until it is.)

Seeking is not to become what we are - it is to awaken to, or recognize the certain reality that this is already the case.

Why is it that some contemporary nondualists (or neo advaitins as they are sometimes called) overlook or avoid this obvious distinction?

It may have something to do with the confusion that arises from the contemporary practice of (probably unconsciously) mashing together incompatible aspects of advaita and Buddhist perspectives.

Anyone under even a passing influence of advaita vedanta philosophy might want to avoid the suggestion that an awakening is an occurrence within the play of the manifestation. This doesn't accord with advaita's ultimately solipsistic outlook. Buddhism however (in its core teaching) has no problem with this since it avoids the clinging to a transcendent Self.

Also, talk of a recognition might suggest a recogniz-er. In a clear understanding of nonduality, this does not follow. As indicated above, recognition is part of the complex play of the manifestation. Since all apparent entities are empty of own-being, we can say that there is no one who sits on the chair, no one who eats the sandwich and... no one who becomes awakened: In other words; sitting happens, eating happens, awakening happens.

Is there anyone alive who can write as readably on this subject as Alan Watts?

"Seeking is not to become what we are - it is to awaken to, or recognize this is already the case."
quote Rob

But, can we go from knowing about the
state, to Being that state ?

If we already are that state, why don't
we FEEL we are one with it ?

If it only takes a split second
to Be in that state, why don't we
just go There and FEEL it, instead of
just talking about it ?

We know there is no Doer. But, THE FEELING OF MERGER IN THE PRESENCE is our deepest

Until we FEEL the Presence, we are hollow
shells of nobodies.

FEELING the Presence brings a flood of
Peace. A wonderful MERGER.

The hollow shell of the jnani is filled
to the brim with Peace and Being.

If you can FEEL the PRESENCE, do you
worry about tomorrow ?

The Presence is so wonderful you never
want to stop FEELING it.

It sits on top of your head at this
very instance, just waiting for you
to FEEL it.

Just by FEELING it you have already arrived.

Because the first step is the last step.

You are either There, or not There.

There are no steps, or stages.

That subtle FEELING on top of your head
is It.

All a human being is capable of is
placing their attention in the FEELING.

There is no religion or codes of conduct.

You may do good, or bad, but never take
the attention off the FEELING on the top
of your head.

"It is surely the case that we ARE what we seek therefore seeking to become what we are makes no sense - we are THAT (oneness, totality) which includes the very seeking."

---How do you know 'exactly' that we are oneness and totality? These words are just words.

Hi CC,
Ramesh Balsekar has written many
of the best jnani books ever written.
Highest degree. Perfect.

Also, Bernadette Roberts, The Realization
of No Self. Written long ago, I believe
she is still alive and has website.

Suz should read this last one.

But, the FEELING of Ramana Maharshi
he called PEACE and Jiddo Krishnamurti,
are not in these books.

The FEELING is only known to the Super
Jnani and innocent children.

We need all go to a kindergarten class
to learn the final revelation from

They are in the FEELING now. They FEEL
the Presence.

The highest Guru .... is the Child.

LOOK and SEE right now (not a thought about looking), present apperception reveals a seamlessness. This is not mystical - it's the fact that what is present but overlooked is seamless origination. The turning of a universal process in which distinction and diversity arises as 'effects' of that turning. This can easily be seen in meditation.

This is supported by the intellectual recognition that there are not billions of first causes but one (indeterminate) principle at work.

This can bring some peace - but life goes on.

I'm not sure if this qualifies as the feelings as described by Mike. I'm a bit wary of stories of exulted feelings - I'm sure there are lots of experiences of wonderful feelings - deeper and deeper stages of bliss etc. But these are surely just physiological highs.

If the above comments are a good indication, people interested in non-duality are screwed up, wacky, nutty, mentally deficient, deluded, deranged dingbats...and I'm one of them.

"But these are surely just physiological highs."
quote Rob

That's correct. Levels of experience
as Ramana Maharshi would call them.

But, the place on top of ones head
is quite different. It is not an
experience and not bliss, nor satori,
nor nirvakalpa.

But, Something else.

The place on top of ones head is not
seen, nor heard.

It can only be directly felt.

As ones attention stays there,
one realizes it is not an experience.

It is the Presence Itself.

It completes the jnanis desire
for water. One can bath in water
and be refreshed.

Only the true seeker ever finds this

Everyone else just speculate on it.

" seeking to become what we are makes no sense '
quote Roger

How about FEELING what we are, right
here and now. Will words ever give
the FEELING of merger ?

It is not enought to know. Only
FEELING what we are makes sense.

The jnani reaches the point where
in fact, the perfect logic itself
blocks the FEELING.

There is tons of logic to say why
the Presence cannot be FELT right now.
Endless reasons not to FEEL right now.

It is a hypnotic trance.

It must be this, it must be that.

But, they won't take a second to FEEL
it right now.

Wouldn't logic dictate that if someone
told you the Presence was on your head
and you could FEEL it right now, that
one would spend one second FEELING it
before reporting back ?

But, no one will do that.

Only a child can do that.

FEELING is action. The logic of the jnani
is dead thought even though it is correct.

The following cartoon is not meant to be a editorial statement on Ms. Suzanne's book, but it does touch on why some have
"issues" with neo-Advaita.


Cheers to all,


First off: Suzanne, it looks like I totally ignored you, and the post was about you and your book, which I checked out and your website. You make it sound so simple:). It was interesting when I saw your picture on the website I thought ‘wow, that’s not how I imagined you looked like.’ It’s funny, I pictured you a far ,far heavier woman with blonde shoulder length hair.

The same I done with Brian(blogger), even though he has a wee picture of himself up somewhere wearing a baseball cap, but the truth is, I never passed much remarks. When I went nosing around though, I seen one of his videos of himself doing the sword thing and I laughed (not at him) but I had pictured him about 20 stone, a much bigger man, something like the actor Brian Dennehy.

I also done the same with the Derrick Jensen(who’s book I am reading), I actually pictured him to be what Brian actually looks like, but again how wrong I was when I googled him, he is the opposite of Brian and has a big brown bunch of curly hair.

The point? Well I was just wondering how we come up with these images and how we get the ‘picture’ in our mind of what we think they look like. What words or use of language, judgements, assumptions are at work here? Hhmmmmm.

Sita the kind of things you are saying sounds reasonable and any counsellor in the world or most of them, well all the ones I have been with, might agree with you. But it is that kind of stuff that kept me from the truth, kept me as a victim believing that my problems were from somebody else. Yes I do agree I felt deep hurt and it was at times like living in hell for me. I have done the thing of crying for that part of me that was hurt but started looking at why my life was still a subtle hell.

But I (as an adult) kept telling myself I was bad, stupid, different, ugly, worthless, day in day out. I am not condoning abuse or violence in any shape or form but I still have to say things happened and I created a meaning for it and continued to believe it, and that is where the healing/coming back to myself is, when I take responsibility for my part.

This will show you how strong I feel about this – no matter WHO in the world, no matter how clever, smart, ‘enlightened’, intelligent they are/were, including BJ, Ramana, Nanek, Jesus, Buddha , if they told me it is all your fathers fault, I would say ‘complete and utter bullshit!’ No kidding.

I don’t want to make this about ‘my story’ it was just an example of the whole victim thing and taking responsibility for my own life. Abstract doesn’t work for me, I get lost in all this oneness, there is nobody here stuff, maybe I’m slow. THAT is why I thought I would give an example. I could have chosen anything. This applies to everything from abuse to been overcharged at the shop (corner store), to somebody ‘giving’ you an insult (your choice to take it that way). Even if you say we all have been conditioned that way, I didn’t question, I bought it. I took it as the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help me Marina. I carried it on like a big rucksack on my back.

I heard something years back that went something like this “It was your parents’ job to fuck you up and it’s your job to fix it.”

Thank you Sita for bringing this up, and giving me a chance to respond and you can also feel free to agree or disagree with me:))

By the way, did none of ye ‘get’ Osho’s Victimitis, or are me and Osho the only 2 sane ones here??? Lol lol

I look at my grandson, and it amazes me how he does his chicken dance, elbows leading and doesn’t care who is watching him. He will tell his truth about not liking someone or someone is bold, according to him and he doesn’t try to please people. He knows what he wants and what he doesn’t.
Oh God Mike, how much I agree with you about kids:

”We need all go to a kindergarten class
to learn the final [any] revelation from
They are in the FEELING now. They FEEL
the Presence.
The highest Guru .... is the Child.

Have any of you ever looked into a young child’s eyes? Really paid attention? Paid attention to the feeling that evokes? Oh the depth. Try it! As I said before, my little adorabubble grandson is one of my Gurus!!!! (I have many, all different eggs in my basket.... Just in case! :))

Sometimes I think to myself that I would love to write like Mike. Short and precise and to the point, instead of babbling away, though sometimes, ‘admittedly’ I don’t ‘get’ it.

Nietzsche, believe you me, I have TRIED like no one has to let go of everything I think of myself, no one has tried harder.
I think the harder I tried, the bigger it got.

Look, to me it is really simple (at times); accept whatever thoughts I find myself thinking, be aware of them and NOT try to get rid of them.When I label it as ‘bad’ and that I shouldn’t be feeling that way, this isn’t who I am supposed to be (you know the one, all light and love or all nothing) I am not accepting what is here in me, trying to fix it, rejecting that part of me and so on the struggle goes. It is like these feelings can’t or shouldn’t exist. What I try to fight seems to become more strong or what I resist persists.

It is great though, I seem to be able to catch myself doing this and it doesn’t take me over the way it completely use to. Woo hoo.

Now as for the flirting with men and letting myself do it, well Nietzsche, a lot of people have said to me that I am one of the biggest flirts they have ever met. I don’t agree, I see it as been friendly – I’m not trying to get anything from them, well maybe I like communication, connection...... but I just like people.
If I am on a train/plane, I’ll talk to whoever is sitting beside me, if I have nothing else to do. Now, don’t get the wrong picture here, I’m not like one of these people you see in movies who never shuts up. Promise!
I even asked my husband did he think I was a flirt and he thought for a moment and he said ‘no, you just have a way with people’. And he is very together!

Nothing wrong with sexual desires you wrote, oh Nietzsche, don’t get me started on that one!!! I could blog away on that one for at LEAST a year and probably not still be done. Oh the stories I could tell – and no Brian, let’s keep it clean, don’t even think of it!!! Though saying that, I did feel embarrassed about sex and any mention of the ‘dreaded’ word for a long time.

You wrote: ps it looks like I ignored your posting but I was not aware of it making my former post ;)

Ha ha, I bet you to it, my post appeared first!:)))
That has happened to me too, on more than one occasion, so I totally understand – and the feelings that go with it.:)) Just between ourselves Nietzsche, I don’t think Brian is really that dedicated to the Church of the Churchless do you? If he was, you would think he would have the posts up when they come through!

Saying that, when I post on the blog I have on more than one occasion found myself saying something like ‘Oh my god, what have I done? It is all out of context bla bla bla. Hell, I even thought of sending Brian an email(cowardly way out) apologising for such long, dare I say it, posts and telling him I’m out of this blog’s league (actually the 1st blog I have ever being on) half the stuff said here is way over my head and I seem to be stuck with all this stuff and most people are talking about non duality, oneness, nobody there, all one......and well me????

But then I catch myself and laugh and say to myself ‘ok marina, so you are afraid of coming across as a fool, is that it? Do you want the truth or do you want safety and comfort?’
And then all seems well.......until the next time.:))

But do you know what? I catch myself now. It use to take me days, no I lie, I spent fucking years in that trap.
So....... Que será, será

Thanks for the comment Nietzsche and please please never be afraid to hurt. I am stronger than I come across, obviously:))

By the way Nietzsche, are you a male species or a female species?????

Marina :)

What a great link Betty.

Thanks so much for posting it!

It helps to remind me that I'm not losing it :)

There are other cartoons like it which I will check out, but not tonite as it is now 2.20am. Time to go to bed, it has been a long day........

Marina :)

Rob just did cc

The Infallible Logic of the Jnani ?

There is no one whom exists and
no one experiencing .... experience.

Quite obvious.The persona is a myth.

So, there is no self which can seek reality
and nothing to be sought, because we are
already reality.

There is obviously no place we are not in reality.

So we would be seeking that reality we
already exist in, which is foolishness.

But, we do know Something exists.

We do know this Something knows all
that can be known because it is everything.

And, we are part of this everything.

We are in a hologram.

So, if we can FEEL any part of this hologram,
all the other parts will be affected.

Each cell in the hologram contains all the
information to create and entire universe.

Just like one of our cells in our body has the
DNA to make an entire new body.

So, lets say we FEEL the hologram directly.
Any part of the hologram is fine.

Lets say we can touch one cell of the universal
hologram. That cell itself knowing all
the other parts.

Lets say this one cell sits on our head.

Lets say we could FEEL this cell on our head.

And, therefore BE this cell on our head.

What else would be necessary ?

Would this one cell not have complete wisdom
of the entire hologram ?

What is That by which FEELING,
all else becomes FELT ?

What is that FEELING on top of your head
........... right now ?

That tingling sensation. While being aware
of that tingling sensation, would not your
entire head tingle after awhile ?

Would not your entire head begin to vibrate
to the same frequency ?

If you are on the same frequency, have
you not in effect ..... tuned in ?

Can you touch the Substance of your being ?

What is that tingling sensation on your head ?

Don't you have the urge to FEEL it ?

And, keep FEELING it.

And, keep FEELING it ?

Been thinking about this suzanne stuff. Schopenhauer said we have this causal intuition, explaining everything that happens as if it happens to us. We perceive the outside world as if it is working on us, radiating light to us and sound to us. But this causal principle is not found in nature and there is no exception on it. The fact that we can not, now and then, perceive a-causality made him believe that it has something to do with the way we perceive everything. It is in our being, not in the outside world, it is a principle of perception.

Now if we could somehow rise above this way of perceiving as Suzanne describes than we might say: boy this is simple, this is simple the way it is, of course now I perceive the oneness, the a-causality, it is so obvious. But how can I express it in causal terms? I can not, I must look like an idiot ;)

Perhaps is is possible to end time right here and now. Think I have to completely stop thinking, perhaps search for my hat? :)

Marina, I'm glad Brian scans the posts before they appear as internet can become a big flaming war. Also I do think your post is off-topic but I understand you have to post somewhere. My reaction was to try another perspective. Often people search for the things their parents have done to them but more often it is what their parents didn't do that is the biggest problem.
Take care ;)

Sorry Nietzsche if I didn’t make myself clear. And maybe you may get it from this, hopefully clearer perspective! At the end of the day, thinking, your thinking, my thinking is ALL thinking! Words are just words and more useless meaningless words Nietzsche! You do have a point but as far as I see things, be it abuse, RS, books on enlightenment...... these are all expressions of that same very life.

“”I”” did get a sense of feeling undermined after reading your comment. But that is MY feeling and MY thought for how I ‘picked’ up your message. Ok, NO more Mrs. Nice Guy, I’ll try to make it clearer below.

Sita, interesting message. You seem to be saying “don’t blame the victim”.
I know you mean well but it is that very message that keeps people miserable and in a victim role.

For example, an event happened that our society labels as bad. Since I was a participant in that event, since I could have stopped it (by telling the my mother/police) that makes me a participant in the evil. Now by taking onboard these judgements I hear from self-righteous know it alls, I believe I am bad and evil. Now the real harm begins. I harm myself with my judgements I learned from you ten million times a day. “Go back into the victim role, quick”.

Which is worse you or my dad? As it turns out the real abuse comes from people like you that send out the message to believe in such judgements. The abuse was child’s play compared to the damage of judgements that I innocently believed from people like you. My father was not bad, I was not bad......The programming we both had perhaps wasn’t the best.

Similarly RS isn’t bad, BJ isn’t bad, I am not bad.....are there better ways? Probably......let me know about the ones you find.

Now you Sita might say “what I did is not wrong, I just said a load of words....what your father did was wrong”. Unfortunately since we humans live in language and not in the real world, it is just the opposite.
In the real world things happen and there is nothing good or bad about it.

In the world of language, where we live, the harm of judgement surrounds us, we find ourselves enveloped in it like smog lingering all around us. But alas......we seem to get immune to its presence. We forget it’s there. We can’t get our heads high enough out of it to see the blue sky! It feels like it is either ignored or reinforced.

Those who feel abused by RS, feel so bad about it because they know they could have stopped it. At anytime they could have stopped going to satsang, could have stopped doing simran, could have stopped their perfect master rescue fantasy. Did you stop it? No you kept the (in your mind) abuse going believing it would be best in the long run. “I’ll just sell myself out now for a greater good later.”

PS Brian, that was a joke about you not being dedicated to the blog. I really appreciate your work doing the blog.

VENT!!!! Feel free not to read the following short little message!

I feel so so so so angry and hurt. Take a pill Marina that’s what seems to be the message!! Stick your head back in the cloud. Don’t wake up.

I feel like my grandson here; crying, annoyed, emotional, ranting, and passionate, because of my experience here now, right in now in this moment.

Do I dismiss him and say “stop that behave, or Oh he’s only a child, what does he know, he is messed up, he hasn’t got the right perspective, he needs to do it differently? NO, I say to myself, go for it NOAH!!!! THAT is real, in my world!

Marina :p

Or maybe -W. H. Murray says it better....

Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative and creation, there is one elementary truth; the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one’s favour all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamed would come his way. Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin now.


Lost the link a fellow posted
he was given a meditation by a
Rajinder rep.

Same holds for any Radhasoami
meditation from any Guru.

RS meditation will block you
from FEELING your Substance.

If you try to see and hear it,
or even taste the nectar by placing
the toungue in the roof of your mouth,
you will not FEEL your Substance.

A person is still trying to experience
when seeing and hearing. Experience
comes fron the belief in a self.
The self of the individual can experience
all sorts of things.

But, there is only one way to FEEL
your Substance. It is immediate
and now.

It is on top of your head. It
feels at first like a tingling sensation.
But, as one simply keeps FEELING this
sensation it expands.

Any effort, or yoga will block it.
Any religion will block it.

Just FEELING it opens up the book of
life and explains all its mysteries.

Only children can do it.

Hi Dogribb, my family are fine with the book, it is fiction after all, simply informed by my own experiences and the decidedly juicier experiences of others. ("Others" in quotes if you like.) My hubbie is concerned that people will associate him with the Alistair character and think him a bit too intolerant and closed-minded; in fact, Alistair is the character I identify most with! That new-agey crap - can't handle it.

Betty, thanks for sharing a link to The Advaita Trap video. Great stuff. It brilliantly captures what I don't like about the preachy side of nonduality philosophy. Here's a text version, if anyone prefers reading to listening/watching:

Marina says: "You seem to be saying “don’t blame the victim”. [...] it is that very message that keeps people miserable and in a victim role."

-- Thats such nonsense. some people, many people, really are victims... and through no fault of their own. and other people like being victims. Marina sounds like a rather stupid, immature and confused individual. blaming the victim is like blaming women who get raped, just because they are sexually attractive. but its the fault of the rapist. another example is children who are beaten and abused. yet according to Marina, its the fault of the child, because they are the victim. frankly, Marina is full of shit and crazy. other examples are hate crimes or genocide. but according to Marina, its all the fault of the victims. people like Marina are disgusting, because they are so incredibly stupid and blind.

Marina says: "As it turns out the real abuse comes from people like you that send out the message to believe in such judgements."

-- wrong again. its people like Marina who are incapable of reason and sound judgement who are most often the ones who inflict abuse upon other people.

"Similarly RS isn’t bad, BJ isn’t bad, I am not bad"

-- this is yet more of the same twisted mentality and irrational 'double-speak'. its the mentality of: black is white, bad is good, wrong is right, evil is not evil, the victim is at fault, and so on. Marina is just a babbling fool.

Marina says: "since we humans live in language and not in the real world, it is just the opposite."

-- again, more of the same as above. its actually Marina who does not live in the real world. everything is backwards. Marina
somehow believes that victims are to blame for the faults and wrong actions of others.
this is a sick mentality.

"In the real world things happen and there is nothing good or bad about it."

-- again, more of the same twisted mentality... that there is 'no good or bad'. that there is no such thing as evil. that no one is responsible for their actions... and so on. its is sad and unfortunate that there are people who think like Marina, who are so bereft of sound reason.

"Those who feel abused by RS, feel so bad about it because they know they could have stopped it. At anytime they could have stopped going to satsang, could have stopped doing simran, could have stopped their perfect master rescue fantasy."

-- this is wrong as well. who here said that they were "abused" by RS? nobody
that I have seen. ... its not people feeling abused. its about RS being a fraudulent guru cult, and the selling of myths and fictions to sincere seekers. its about RS (falsely) claiming that its gurus are GIHF. its about RS using fear and guilt and pseudo-mystical fantasy and religion to manipulate and extract work and money and property from people.

furthermore, i for one, did stop going to satsang the moment that i discerned that RS and its guru was all a fake based on a fabricated myth. and that was over 20 years ago. i also stopped the RS form of meditation and all the rest. i never felt "abused". i simply let go and changed my course. the illusion that was the RS cult and its belief system, simply dropped away. so this idea Marina has that people feel "abused by RS" is not true. Marina just wants to blame the victims, for being mislead by the lies and myths of a fraudulent guru-cult.

Reading Mike’s above last comment sparked me to write:

Experience comes from a belief in the self – my self.

My self identity can be on opposite poles – onetime, insecure, hurt, different, separate and on the other side feeling good, I like me, secure, confident, happy, as good as.

But always going from one extreme to the other and always an identity.
I can begin to see what is happening – identifying with this self, more so wanting to identify with the “I like me self, it feels a lot better”, though it is still the same self I am identifying with and with no lasting state.

It does feel better but it still feels like a trap or still feels like being in prison but with better circumstances. Fear arises, as I see one could become comfortable in this newfound ‘happier state’ compared to the old one and therefore harder to ‘let go’ of and making the identity stronger.

What is the pay off? Who would I be without this self, this drama. What would I do? How would I do anything or know what to do?

When awareness is there watching this game, everything seems all right and if momentarily, this self identity drops there seems to be.....peace, contentedness, quiet, perfection, acceptance.

Before long, the mind grabs that experience and makes it part of the self again and owns it.

What causes that? Is acceptance and awareness all that is needed? No attempt trying to reject the experience, no trying to do anything about it.....just watch, observe.

Noticing thoughts and not identifying with them is that a doing?

Any effort to figure this out only ends in confusion and being lost.

......And fear of 43 years of self identity.......then what?

Marina, you're already "in confusion and being lost". why? because you don't you don't get it yet:



I haven't been following what you have been saying but i just wanted to say that Tao is nothing but a shit on a twig being barbequed by a makeshift primitive fire. I wouldn't pay any attention to him. It is best if you ignore him because if you don't you will just add shit (fuel) to his fire (rant).

All the best

David says: "i just wanted to say that Tao is nothing but a shit on a twig"

David, if you are going to make a rude personal attack using toilet rhetoric, you'll need to back it up with some substance, some evidence. when you call other people "shit on a twig", all you're really doing is showing what kind of low degraded person YOU are.

and also, apparently, you agree with Marina's unbelievably stupid notions that victims are to be blamed for the abuses and wrongs that are done to them.

you both need to see a mental health therapist.

OK, that's enough personal attack/insult stuff.

I'm fine with folks blowing off some steam and talking a bit of trash about other commenters, so long as it doesn't get too extreme. But only up to a point. Which has been reached.

Let's move on to more interesting substantive discussions.

"Let's move on to more interesting substantive discussions. "
quote Brian

Better yet, lets touch our Substance.

Most people don't know Ramana Maharshi
talked of an energy coming down from the top
of the head. He said it automatically
opened the centres from the top down.

Therefore, kundalini from the bottom
up, was skipped entirely.

That was the most important statement
Ramana ever made. The Great Force comes
down. And, he was known to transmit this
force to his diciples in silence.

He said that was his greatest teaching.

If the Force is on the top of the head,
why do we go anywhere else ?

How many claiming to be jnani even know
there is a Force that comes down ?

How many claiming to be jnani even know how
to bring down the Force ?

Without the Force, the words of the
jnani are dry lifeless leaves on a branch.

Can the words of the jnani quench your thirst ?

Or, can only the Force quench your thirst ?

(continued from post above)
Ramana Maharshi stated the foundation of Awakening was
associated with the right side of the heart and a unique
channel of yogic force that connected the
place above the head with the right side of the heart.

The structure is called by Ramana Maharshi,
“amrita nadi” (the channel of eternally nectarous Love-Bliss,
connecting the right side of the Heart with the "sahasrar".

The descent of the Spirit-Force down
“amrita nadi” into the right side of the heart is the
culmination of the jnanis journey.

Some quotations about the FORCE above, related to Ramana.

This force is called Pranahuti. There are no living
Pranahuti Masters living that I know of, although there
are of course false claimants.

I was initiated by Ram Chandra, the last Pranahuti
master. Since he is gone now, Pranahuti has to be contacted
directly. And, it can be and should be.

It is in fact not a yoga, or way; and has no religion.

It is a direct contact with the FORCE. Here and now.

The disciple starts at the highest point and FEELS
it immediately. No 20 years of meditation necessary.

By remaining in this spot on the top of the head

Through out ones life one has inadvertantly felt
the FEELING on the top of their head. But, they didn't
recognize it for what it is. Because their attention
slips away quickly.

Sometimes the FEELING is felt in the right side of the

By FEELING the FEELING on the top of your head you
are in effect plugging into a wall socket with
your brain.

A charge starts to come down. Only enough charge comes
down at a time so as not to blow your mind. But,
you can FEEL it pushing down on the top of your head.

You are told NOT TO WATCH the attractions on inner planes
nor listen to the sounds. This is a distraction related
to kundalini. This actually stops the FORCE from coming down.

This yoga goes far beyond Radha Soami Pad
(a mental dimension).

The FEELING is as though SWIMMING. (Not flying)
You FEEL your BEING. Nothing is seen or heard.

Your Being penetrates dimensions. Or, rather
it starts FEELING the Ultimate dimension
as you approch via your vibrational purity.

The FEELING Force is the same, but feels different as courser vibrations are cast off. So, it
is better to say you are not moving through
dimensions, but rather casting off course vibrations as you continue to FEEL the FEELING.

The place on top of your head is a holographic
beacon that lights up the frequencies of your brain waves.

So, the initial FEELING you FEEL on
your head, is the same FEELING you
will FEEL in the Ultimate dimension.

Although the FEELING only appears different
as the minds frequencies progress.
as the minds vibrations come into tune.

Continued from prior two posts

The mind is a bad word to use.

It is better to say realizing the Substance
of your Being. FEELING your Being.

Radhasoami people think they are
going out of body into outer space.

But, the jnani moves into Inner Space
via a Black Hole.

Inner Space is infinite. The movement is
inward, not outward, as most yogis believe.

Outward movement via what is perceived
as kundalini (a misnomer) produces
experiences in the superficial brain
on our earth.

Most people want to get out of their body
with yoga. The jnani wants to go into
his body into the DEEPER Dimensions.

Planes are also another bad word to use.

Dimensions are better.

At death, the jnani does not want to
fly into the heavens. He wants to
continue swimming inward.

A pinpoint opens into new dimensions.

That pinpoint is on your head.

If you keep turning up the lever on
a microcope, you can go Deeper
and Deeper and Deeper.

So, we are not trying to find our "self".

We are trying to FEEL the Substance
of our Being.

So we must move infinitely backward.

Well tAo,

After giving your comment very careful consideration, questioning and contemplation, at first going to ‘defend’ myself while also pointing out a few provoking thoughts your way, (the arrogance of me and after all you never asked to be preached to, it seemed more like a statement of expression from you), so trying to change your mind and get you to see it from my perspective seemed irrelevant to me. What does it matter anyway!

I looked and looked, and I could find no anger, hurt, pity, surely there has to be something like this here? No, I couldn't find any. I won’t tell you what I did find as you may not believe me, who knows. It doesn’t matter anyway.

It was a great experience as it became clear that I can’t give you the point, you can’t give me the point, we have to get the point for ourselves.

The words of a song come to mind regarding your expression:
“Return to sender,
Address unknown,
No such ‘person’
No one home.” So thank you but no thank you. It belongs with you tAo.

The video you posted was very interesting.

It brings to mind the book I am reading if anyone is tired of the usual ‘holy’ spiritual books.
The book is called: ”Walking on water: Reading, Writing And Revolution by Derrick Jensen.

Honest to god, it is brilliant, simple, enlightening and most of all, fun. A great, great read!

You may enjoy this video from a very simple, clear, enlightened....... And there is no point arguing with the video - if you choose to. It will seem pointless or insane and believe me; it will fall on deaf ears as they (in the video) just won’t take it on board:)


What I do feel like saying however is I never will condone violence, physically, mentally, emotionally or spiritually in any shape or form – from the subtle to the grossest form.

I have no problem allowing people to be where they are and allowing them – even subtly to have their own truth.


Do you ever feel like the 'daddy' Brian trying to control the children? :))

Ah c'mon, let them play their games.

Marina ;)

Dear marina,
for the record,there could be a misunderstanding about the scars,I was talking about.
I am not misused by my father in the same way as you at all.
i have different scars.
i meant we all have,and better don't deny that,is waht i wanted to say.
But everyone has to deal with it in their own ways.
That is what i wanted to say.

" I'm going to try and catch it, but then again, who will catch who"
quote tara

Referring to my 3 posts May 26th, this thread, on FEELING the Pranahuti.

There no WHO (mistakenly personalized thought). There is no self.

Neither of these two can catch anything
because they don't exist. They cannot
FEEL anything.

The Substance of ones Being FEELS itself.

The Substance you are made of desires
to FEEL itself.

The Substance runs full circle. A person
is to close the last gap of the circle.

The Substance is everything and knows

Therefore, one need only touch the FEELING
the Substance emanates. That FEELING pulls
one back in without any effort.

(cont from prior 4 posts above)


So, we have seen jnanis Jiddo Krishnamurti,
Ramana Maharshi and Ram Chandra with the FORCE.

But, what about Faquir Chand ? Remember how
Faquir Chand talked about very mysterious
forces doing things he was unaware of ?
People claiming miracles around him he
was unaware of and could not explain ?

Remember Sawan telling Faquir he was correct
and to change the teachings ? Have the
teachings not changed after even the
apparent death of faquir Chand ?

Yes. Faquir Chand could FEEL the FEELING.

Here's the reason why.

A truly honest seeker will instinctively
move to the top of their head.

They will FEEL a Presence. This is
the result of the outcry from their inner
being. They simply feel an overwhelming
urge to FEEL their Being.

It is not an emotion, but a cry from
the heart.

What this means is a person can be practising
any religion or philosophy.

But, when the cry from the heart becomes
loud enough, they will slip instinctively
into the FEELING.

At this point the FEELING has power.
It starts working, even though the
person does not know it is working.

The Force produces change in the world.

It only takes one person to FEEL the Force
to send off a holographic change to the
entire world.

This force is so powerful nothing can stand
in its way.

The Force is found only in the honest heart
of a child.


When you are enlightened you are not the body at all, just a spectator of everything, seated deep inside but simulatenously aware of all that happens. It has nothing to do with some spot at the crown of the head or some ghost heart at the right side of the chest.

But there are sensations at the crown if you think and feel your awareness there. It is nothing but a centre of attention that you put your mind on in order to feel it more robustly.

The rest is self suggestion, the power of belief, the placebo effect, etc

“........everyone has to deal with it in their own ways” as you wrote.

That is true Sita. :)

It is not a case of denying scars / emotional scars. I do agree, feel the hurt and pain. Sure, don’t deny that; allow it to be fully experienced. When the judgement is gone what is there left?

Ultimately there is nothing to forgive..........ultimately!
But the concept of forgiveness will derail you.
There is a difference between coming from your concepts of forgiveness which includes judgements, than coming from your heart and no judgement.


Marina, running a blog and dealing with comments doesn't feel so much like being a "Daddy" as a referee and trash collector. Meaning, spam (sales) comments are a constant irritant, and sometimes its necessary to step in and remind people of the rules of the commenting game here.

You're pretty tough, Marina -- able to deal with personal insults/attacks. Other people aren't. It bothers me when someone is driven away from commenting after the comment conversation gets too rough.

As I've observed before, and surely will again, the Internet brings out behavior that is rarely seen in "real" life. People will say things to each other in cyberspace that they almost certainly wouldn't face to face -- especially to someone they've just met.

I don't like it when people say things like "You're a ......" online when they really have no idea what sort of a person they're communicating with. So I do try to play Blog Daddy to some extent when I sense that the boundaries of a courteous comment conversation are being crossed.

Very true Marina,
You are right about the point of forgiviness

''from the heart or concepts'',thats it..the difference..

There's a metaphor used by some "non-dual" teachers (I think maybe originated by Adyshanti):

Imagine that you've lived for years thinking that you're miserably poor. The belief is like a disease, making you suffer every time the idea of your poverty arises.

Then one day someone tells you that there are diamonds in your shoes. You don't bother looking, because it's so ridiculous to claim that you've got diamonds when you're so poor. But one day, your suffering gets so intense, and you've lost all hope, you figure what the hell, and look in your shoes. And damn, what do you know, you have diamonds. You're really rich, and always have been.

In that moment, the belief that you're poor, or ever really were poor disappears. Lots of people call this moment "awakening," at it feels really good.

So now you've been cured of the disease of thinking you're poor. Then you can possibly pick up a new disease, of thinking that you're awakened. Maybe you cling to the wonderful experience of finding the diamonds, and want to hold that experience and have it over and over.

You may cling to "I'm awakened" just as blindly as you once attached to "I'm poor" or "I'm unenlightened."

Then there's there's the possibility of letting go of all the ideas and experiences, and instead connect to just now: what am I going to do with these diamonds?


After Brian’s comment about being a referee, trash collector and blog daddy – lol, I feel the need to say a few things.

Maybe your site should have a slogan at the top saying;

”WARNING: This site can be ‘dangerous’ to your beliefs, it can also ‘confirm’ your beliefs AND it can also do away with your beliefs. 'If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.” lol lol

You are right. The internet does seem to bring out behaviour that we normally wouldn’t do in ‘real’ life. That is where I see the beauty of it – it gives people a chance to really express what and how they feel – whether we like it or not :)), as ‘real’ life can enforce us to play games to fit in with the system /culture as not be ostracized. We can get repressed just trying to ‘fit’ in.

There is of course an element of safety and comfort on the blog, especially when no one knows who you are – unless of course you use your real name (cringe lol)

There seems to be a fine line, I do agree, although none of us are responsible “ultimately “for how others feel or take things, we do have a responsibility to respect the person, as you say ”they really have no idea what sort of a person they're communicating with”. The difficulty seems to arise when we think and believe we know what sort of person we are dealing with. Yeah sure, you can’t tell where a person is coming from by a few comments they may have written. (For god’s sake, if you look at it, a lot of the times we don’t know where we are coming from ourselves!)

Again, it is back to judgements – lack of clear thinking. Maybe we want our beliefs reinforced, and I am using the word beliefs, because the truth doesn’t need to be reinforced or defended. Beliefs are always on shaky ground, whereas the truth is unshakable.

It won’t matter what anyone says, we all know this ‘feeling’ and it doesn’t need defending. But regarding judgements, we all do judge, somehow, until we don’t. It is as it is! (Brian’s favourite statement) ;)))

If you want to know the truth exclusively, we must be willing to take a little heat (or a lot of heat ;)).

If what you want is your beliefs reinforced, there is every chance you may get ‘slammed’ or not, as people may catch on to that, even in the subtlest of comments.

I don’t see this as a bad thing. It can be pretty goddamn helpful if you want to ‘see’ it.

Back at the start, I did feel like running. I actually checked out a ‘nice’ site and was thinking about going there (as I didn’t feel appreciated here lol lol lol). So I stopped and asked myself ‘what are you running from???’ Hhmmm. Interesting!

If I am looking the Ultimate truth I have to be willing and open to experience, any experiences that may come, in any shape or form, be it in “personal insults/attacks”, which I see as gifts in disguise, or ‘approval’, which may or may not feed this 'self', it is a good way of finding out our beliefs, that’s for sure.

Our critics can be our greatest teachers!

To wrap up: I think one of the ‘new tenets’ of RS should be:

“No (5) – Everyone must spend at least half an hour each day on the “Church of the Churchless blog.

And, I am NOT kidding!!!!

Thanks for providing the space.....

Marina ;)

Hi Mike,

Interesting comment about "feeling the force." In my opinion feeling the force is a by-product of true spiritual practice, not the practice itself. In the case of Ramana he is often quoted as saying, " 'I AM that I AM' sums up the entire teaching. Silence sums up the entire method."

Similarly, Sawan Singh wrote a book called "My Submission", not "my feeling the force." So many great Masters talk about "submission, acceptance, loving what is," all the same thing. Why? I maintain it is because THAT IS the great path.

Acceptance of what is, is another name for true silence. Silence can only be interrupted by a mind that wants something i.e. not accepting what is, (looking for more).

What are the by-products of this complete acceptance? Well there are many, such as happiness, joy, peace, kundalini energy, amrita energy, openness, inclusion, contentment ... but these things are the secondary aspects of the practice, not the practice.

That's why Ramana never told people to practice feeling the force from the head or the heart -- that happens automatically when true silence happens. If you go for feeling the force (amrita nadi), or kundalini energy, or sound current energy, or even happiness, you are putting the cart before the horse. Stop craving, stop seeking, stop wanting, be silent, and all those things will happen naturally.

Buddha could not have been clearer on this yet somehow people think it's about something hidden and esoteric. Some mysterous hidden teaching about a secret energy or nadi to be cultivated. They think, "It couldn't be the obvious 4 Noble Truths that any Joe Schmoe knows about when they first hear of buddhism, or the silence Ramana talks about." But it is.

"After all our seeking we end up where we started and see it as if for the first time" --- T.S. Eliot

"Acceptance of what is, is another name for true silence. Silence can only be interrupted by a mind that wants something i.e. not accepting what is, (looking for more)."

---This is very good.

Hi 19 months,

"force (amrita nadi), or kundalini energy"
quote 19 months

Ramana Maharshi made it clear the Force
comes down. That it was not necessary
to open the centres bottom up via kundalini.

Which is almost impossible for the student.
Which anyone here can attest to.

Ramana claimed the jnani opened the centres
from the top down. I.E. kundalini was
a barrier for the jnani.

Kundalini and Pranahuti are exactly opposite.

One goes down, one goes up.

Ramana claimed the jnani opened from the
top down.

The logic of the jnani and Taoist is correct.

But, the deep desire of man is to merge.

Ramana spoke of the transmission being given
in silence.

This is Pranahuti. Top down.

The jnani and Taoist are stuck with perfect logic.

Yet, they cannot merge.

There is a power involved. Not just perfect

Without the power and merging, the jnani
is left dry and thristy.

The self does not exist. It cannot merge.

But, the Substance of ones Being can merge.

Not the mind, but the Substance.

It is true there is no seeker,
but the body does have Substance.

After the self is gone, the body itself
wishes to merge into the Substance.

There's no place like home.

There's no place like home.

for your (everyone's) information:

i don't say things to people on this site, that i would not say to them directly in person. i have no problem telling other people my honest opinions face to face. and so this notion that some people take liberties on the internet, that they would not do if they were in person, does not apply to me. i have no reason to be afraid of telling other people what i think. in my experience, its when people play games and are not up front, is when problems occur.

and also, if someone acts or speaks rudely to me without provocation, then they should not whine and complain if i be rude back to them. thats just how it is. so be forwarned.

Hi Mike,
Great post, very interesting stuff. How is the pranahuti practice working for you?

I know you see pranahuti as something completely different and opposite to kundalini, which may be so, but in the end both involve energy. Traditionally energy paths are called Tantric paths. Not to be confused with “shopping mall” spirituality which mixes up the word tantra with sexual type practices.

Tantra is understood to teach the method of changing the "outgoing current" into the "return current," emphasizing the primacy of bliss and divine union. Fusion of Shiva and Shakti energies takes place, resulting in a united energy field.

The Tantric path is all about energy and so you will generally find within those traditions a big concern about preserving the sexual energies and also dietary restrictions. Meat and egg products are seen as of a tamasic (dull) quality and a drag on the energies, and sexual release is seen as a dispelling of the primal energies that need to be cultivated. The final result of the tantric path is
pure consciousness, pure being, and pure bliss.

In the kundalini (fire ) tantra the sushumna nadi is awakened and energy rises upwards within it. The chinese taoist tantra generally uses the frontal energies, or water energies and are very powerful as are the chiefly Indian fire energies of the spine usually referred to as kundalini. The energies by themselves will not put an end to ego, but they will create optimal conditions for seeing through the illusion of separation.

The tantric path is not the only path! Another very different paradigm is the zen way (often called causal way) which has no interest in energies of any type. They focus on “pure being” right from the start and if any blissful ecstatic energies do come up they view them as a distraction and they attempt to inhere in the empty source from which all energies arise. In the end both ways come to the same source just as one can get in a car from the right or left side doors. The realization is not complete until all energies are awakened and transcended.

In the case of Radhasoami Beas it has followed the traditional Indian tantric fire practice of raising the kundalini up the spine directly through the sushumna (by-passing all of the intermediate chakras) by use of inner sound. Such tantric practices always involve mantras, visualizations, and a guru. The final end of the tantric path is the same as that of the causal or zen path.

With RS I think Gurinder has noticed that westerners are not naturally disposed to the tantric way, whereas Indians are culturally and individually suited for it. So for the Indians that come to satsang he serves as the traditional tantric sat guru.

For the westerners who are not suited to tantra, Gurinder has been giving out the teachings of the causal path (surrender, accepting what is, non-resistance). Are those teachings out of alignment with the tantric path? No they all come together in the end. The problem is when the westerners and the Indians get their stories together: “He's saying this to us, he's saying that to you, he must be a liar.”

In addition westerners come to the table with some heavy baggage of what may be termed “shopping mall” Christianity in which believing in the historical person of Jesus Christ is all that is required for salvation. When you tack that viewpoint onto the traditional tantric viewpoint of the necessity of a guru you end up with a rather odd combination in which people feel that simply believing in the Sat Guru and following the commandments is all that is required for salvation! The commandments are 4 vows instead of 10 commandments.

Now if you combine the Christian dictate that you must go to church on Sunday with an idea that you must go to satsang on Sunday somehow the tranference/ insanity is complete.

You now have a perfect synthesis of east and west which is somehow able to leave out any actual connection to legitimate spiritual practice. It's actually amazing when you think about it.

Hi 19 months,

Your points are good. You said
sit in silence.

As mentioned before, I am the only
one here ever to be initiated by a
Pranahuti master, Ram Chandra, 1982.

The are no living Pranahuti Masters
that I know of know.

When the Pranahuti Master is alive,
you sit in silence and he will transmit
to you from any part of the world.

But, weekly one goes to a preceptor
for a sitting. The preceptor sits in
a chair a few feet in front of you.

You are literally looking into each
others faces, with eyes closes.

The preceptor starts shaking from
the power and transmits off the master.

So, when Ramana Maharshi, Jiddo Krishnamuti'
and Ram Chandra were alive, one could
receive direct in silence.

But, now they are gone.

It has nothing to do with the stillness
of the mind. The mind can be racing
and it still comes through.

Jnani schools such as Gurdjieff Ouspensky
teach one to be conscious all throughout
the day.

I disagree with this approach. It is much
more effective to keep the attention on
the top of the head.

The realization of no self is the key.
No need to maintain attention, or still
the mind.

Once this has occurred, then the last step
is the contact with the Force.

Enlightenment is not the end. There's
still one last thing to do. Contact the Force.

It is much better if one can skip enlightenment
and contact the Force beforehand. There is
actually no need to become enlightened
if one can make contact.

Silence and stillness of the mind are

Why even close your eyes to meditate ?

The Gurus have told us this. We may be exsatsangis,
but we still cling to the Guru logic.
And, it still blocks us from contact.

If I were to walk into a kindergarten class
and tell them to put their attention on top
of their head and just FEEL, the kids
would have it in a second.

But, for me to tell something this incredibly
simple to a group of people from a yoga backround,
no one will take a second to do it.

Contact is immediate. Here and now. By
FEELING the top of your head the Force
takes over. It reanimates your Being.

The burden of life is now cast on the Force.
The Force is all knowing and all powerful.

You don't worry about success or failure,
because it is now in the hands of the Force.

While FEELING the Force it is imperative
the person do absolutely nothing to change
their life. No effort of any kind is to
be made.

All one does is FEEL the Force on the top
of their head.

It FEELS good, so a person does not want
to stop FEELING.

It is done with eyes open driving down the
street, talking to people, watching TV.

But, the person realizes they are in competent

lets take an extreme example.

Lets say the person watches porno on the
internet, misreats their wife, kicks the dog
and steals money from the poor box at church.

They are to make no effort to change their ways.

Why ?

Because the Force will change what needs to be'
changed, without the person even realizing it
over time.

The human being is not capable of changing
very much. Little at all.

If any change is to take place, the person
should not even be aware.

19 months left, good analysis of Sant Mat, RSSB style. Very clear and persuasive. You put your (mental) finger on some rather weird contradictions / combinations in the teachings.

Like how Jesus and Christianity are so revered, when one would think that a Western monotheistic religion and an Eastern mystical meditation practice would be more dissimilar than similar.

Lots of RSSB initiates come from a fervent Christian background. Once initiated they simply substitute "guru" for "Jesus" and basically keep on believing in the same fundamentalist dogma.

Hi Mike, interesting post about Pranahuti.

What I wonder about is, you said Pranhuti is a simple practice of simply feeling the top of your head. Yet you say there are no living Pranahuti masters currently alive. Why not? You would think there would be hundreds,
thousands, even millions of them about.

I have this same question with Radhasoami. They say this is the simple, easy, direct path. Yet with millions of practitioners we can't even find one who is a master of it and when we do find one who is appointed by his guru he admits he had no success with it either!

Now as far as Jiddu Krishnamurti being a pranahuti master I find that hard to believe.
First of all if you spent anytime with him or his teachings you would know he considered the idea of getting anything from anyone else baloney. He said, don't look to me or any master --- look within, you are your own guru, don't give your power away..

Furthermore he said all energy teachings were baloney and when asked why he practiced them in his youth, he said in the old days we walked, today we take airplanes. Having spent some time with J. Krishnamurti I never felt any energy from him, top of the head or otherwise, at least not consciously. I did with Muktananda and a few other energy teachers but not Krishnamurti.

As far as Bernadette Roberts goes she always said that the energies only came from consciousness and must be dropped so all efforts to cultivate them amount to nothing more than a waste of time. She said energies are consciousness' experience when it comes in contact with the divine, (it is a way consciousness has of experiencing the divine) but really nothing to do with the divine. Similar to if you get poked by a needle you know your experience of the needle (pain) but you have no idea of the needle's experience of itself. Similarly it is only when all the energies of consciousness are dropped do we get an experience of the divine.

I have always been big sucker for the idea of energy transmissions and that you can get something from someone else. In fact after more than 30 years involvement with them it now seems to me the best one can hope for from them are thrilling experiences. But if anything those experiences only seem to increase the delusion that there is someone who can acquire or collect experiences, meanwhile the river has flowed on ... holding nothing ... retaining nothing.

" raising the kundalini up the spine directly through the sushumna (by-passing all of the intermediate chakras) by use of inner sound."
quote 19 months

I think you transposed the word by-passing, meaning to say they go through the chakras from the bottom up. Surat shabda yoga is kundalini yoga. Nothing is by passed, as I am sure that's what you meant to say.

Surat shabda is a bottom up yoga. The
RS masters have no clue what they are
teaching and almost no knowledge of
the complicated logic.

There are 7 initiations in Surat shabda,
which RS only gives the first.

Jiddo Krishnamurti was not a Pranahuti master. He was one whom could transfer Pranahuti if he pleased.

He spent his life debunking masters
and was not about to make himself one.
He had already rejected the Godman role.

I always find it amusing when someone
tells me what Jiddo Krishnamuti said
or taught. (I used to eat breakfast
with the guy.)

I understand about Bernedette Roberts,
I have been recommending her for 10 years
on the net. First read her 30 years ago.

I have been initiated by many Gurus. Have
practised everything under the sun.

What I am telling you is something new.

And, it is the nature of things when
people are told something new they try and
relate it to something in the past.

I am aware of practically every response
someone will have from any type of yoga.

Been there, done that.

I am an atheist. What I am telling you
is not a way to God.

But, there is a positive power which exists.
It is directly related to the Substance
of your Being.

It is Something at your core.

The people on this club have reached the
same high ground and circled their wagons.

Just living the Tao and dropping dead
one day.

All I am saying is there is Something they

And, what they missed, is the idea they
can touch their Being directly.
And, do it right now.

No Masters, no yoga, no religion,
no code of ethics.

People are hypnotised.

They are absolutely scared out of their
wits to FEEL the Presence on the top
of their heads.

What do you people think will happen ?

Jesus return, or the Holy Spirit fly
down with the Virgin Mary ?

Does anyone here really think I am
a closet Bible thumper ?

Gimme that ole time religion ..........
Gimme that ole time religion ..........

I've a stupid question. I'm confused.

Non Duality
Non duality
non duality

Non Dualism
Non dualism
non dualism

Which one is the proper form?

Alex, the answer obviously is "nonduality," because that's the word I usually use to describe whatever the heck this creature is that we're talking about.

"nondualism" also is acceptable, for the same reason: that's the way I like to write the word.

I even have reasons.

Since nondualism/nonduality basically refers to oneness, the word shouldn't be divided, as in "non duality." And putting a capital letter on it has an air of theism, as in Brahman or God.

nonduality isn't personal or impersonal or anything for that matter. It just what is. At least that's the rumor I've heard. Me, I don't know anything about nonduality. (Just how to write the word.)

A good explanation.
Thank you!

The Pitfalls of Spirituality
From ex cult member insider


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