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May 13, 2011


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Ya Brian !You barely even tried..only 35 years out of a possible 400.....but you pick up were you left off next life...right ?

And as Babaji Gurinder, his very good self in his very own words, might respond to this 'satsangi' questioner ... 'Rubbish'!

Definitely thought provoking

Corroborated by at least 30 written scriptures and accounts by past Sants (in different countries, different cultures, different times), Sat Desh does indeed exist...in fact, this exalted region will never undergo dissolution, while everything we know here will come to an end, including our miserably short life.

Compounding the incredulity of our extremely feeble day to day minds, there exists even more intensely spiritual regions of purest bliss and glory above Sach Khand. These have been named by past Sants as Alakh Lok, Agam Lok and Anami Lok. Descriptions in writing have been graciously given to us for our perusal regarding the stunning and stupefying scenes and spectacles to be found there, and to which every individual alive can access. My appetite was whetted the first time I read about them!

To me, anyone with a scintilla of yearning within, who is fed up with the brackish and mundane realities of this physical universe, would LEAP at the opportunity to experience these higher states of consciousness and corresponding regions.

Where is the proof, you say?

Subjective investigation is the only real proof and is truly the only real science. But to successfully penetrate one's own internal regions, one must have the true methodology (modus operandi) to penetrate the barriers which separate the various planes of creation within. To obtain the correct methodology, one must humbly approach a True Sat Guru with the desire to know!

Mozart, though naturally endowed with extreme musical talent, still needed the discipline which his own father gave him (an accomplished violinist), still needed to painstakingly take piano lessons, still needed to learn harmonic theory and still needed to ceaselessly practice to refine his knowledge and technique. Only then was his potential as a piano virtuoso and composer realized.

The point is that a true Teacher is mandatory even for the most gifted of individuals. There is no doubt in my mind, after perusing this blog for three years, that most commenters and the host himself are extremely gifted in spirit.

The analogy extends to our own true identity, the soul (not the mind). We are like Mozart, fully endowed with untapped potential in the spiritual sense...that is, the entirety of the Lord's stupefying creation exists within us, including the blessed Sound Current, yet we know not how to contact it.

We are utterly stranded on this planet and have mistakenly taken material pleasures and worldly knowledge as real and true. How can any object (including Earth, including humans) that is going to come to an end be "true"? All here is in a state of decay and decomposition. All life forms on Earth meet their end rather quickly.

How very, very pitiable and tragic...and yet, all is perfect in His Universal Being. All receive His Grace without favoritism, like all receive sunshine, irrespective of the actions performed by the individual. This is naught but Love and Grace from our Father.

Hi Brian,

I think you are the perfect person
for the 'secret positive force'
to work through now.

The 'positive force' evolves its
methods as it moves on.

The 'positive force' can use the
most unlikely people.

The 'positive force' uses people
like pawns on a Chessboard.

The tremendous sincerity you feel
is caused by the 'positive force'.

The 'secret positive force' will
drive you forth Brian.

All you can do Brian, is watch
as events unfold and marvel at
the results.

There is nothing that can stand in
the way of the 'positive force'.

It moves at its own time and speed.

The 'positive force' is now within
you Brian.

You will now follow the long line
of jnanis whom have preceeded you
and those whom were not jnani, but
were used by the force.

The pain you will take on, will
be for all mankind.

May the 'FORCE' be with you.

Sach Khand is a BELIEF system. Every religion gives you certain beliefs. So does sant mat.

It doesn't make it true or valid. However the followers will take it as gospel truth.

Right now the followers of Radha soami have a big dillemma. The current master at RSSB is clearly saying things that they cannot comprehend or accept, namely that
(1) There is no Sach Khand - it's just a level of consciousness
(2) Your soul will not leave the body - because there is only ONE
(3) The master will not come at the time of death - because there is only ONE - so WHO will come to get WHO? The disciple only harbours this illusion as long as he is in duality

The radha soami teachings are going through a radical change - so if you're a follower - you need to wake up and figure out what the heck is going on.

Don't worry about Brian - He's doing just fine - worry about your own salvation - and your futile attempt to reach Sach khand.

Oh - and one more thing - be HONEST enough to face the truth that you are NOWHERE and have no idea what is going on. Don't hide behind nonsense like "I am not allowed to divulge my experiences" Just be honest enough to say there is nothing to divulge becaue I have meditated for 50 years and got nowhere

A and B are cult members aspiring to the same attainment. A gets fed up, abandons the cult, and openly expresses doubts about the whole business. B says A is bitter because he failed to attain. A says B needs to grow up and move on.

For some, success is sticking to your guns. For others, it's moseying on.

Erm, Albertus, Your guru- can't quite remember his name, did you say it was Sir Paul?- what is his pedigree exactly? Does he come from heaven? Is he elected directly by the Divine and Glorious? Is he the succesor of a line of gurus- who are they?

Osho, how can a teaching go through a change? It's a teaching. If ideas and concepts are changed, then it's a different teaching.

Hi Osho,

Glad to see you jumping in, from time to time. What did you mean by, "worry" about your own salvation. Is there such a thing as salvation? Write a message, in your words, regarding salvation. Best wishes, Roger

Feeling the Presence

After all the Words and Gods and
Goddesses have faded away.

The shadows in the mirror of life.

That which passes around us.

The worry of life and death.

Sorrow and happiness.

The people that move past us.

The events that occur.

The movie of our lives.

The memories of family and friends.

..... We are left alone.

On a singular voyage.

We know this in our hearts.

Is there Something within us

That is there all the time ?

Not our temporal consciousness.

Not our experience of life.

Not the visions of heaven.

Is there something deep within us ?

Something, which no one has ever told
us about ?

Something, which is not a place
and not of time ?

Something remarkable, that one could
never dream exists ?

Something far far away from the Holy
Books and preachers.

Something that not even God knows about ?

Something which words cannot convey ?

Something deep deep inside, which can
only be felt as a Presence ?

If you could touch this Presence,
would you care about life and death ?

If you could touch this Presence,
would it not be your eternal companion ?

Would this Presence not be all Love ?

If you could touch this Presence, would
any questions have any meaning ?

If this Presence were within you, where
would you need to go ?

If this Presence exists, would it not be
so far from what we have been told,
that all knowledge about it would be useless ?

There is no where to go, nothing to become.

Whom can feel this Subtle Presence but you ?

The Presence will say nothing to you
and you will say nothing to the Presence.

Because .... you are completely fulfilled.

Now and forever.

You only need feel it.

Why did RSSB tell people all these things only to change them now? And why change them at all? If the premise of a Sach Khand is not true, will it make any difference telling the truth about it's existence to those followers who already believed in it without question? People who can trust make-believe can trust anything - as long as they gain something out of it. I don't expect a big change in India mostly because attending some Dera or the other is a social thing, mostly like visit to a temple or church.
It'll be a good social experiment to see what the reaction is now, especially outside India.
Hope to see an end to this Guru-Dera-SachKhand nexus, and I hope people learn to be kind and helpful in real life, not in reel life of the Dera.

Feeling the Presence ...

That 'Presence' within, so very real in its experience - which, for its duration, we take to be the Lord, God, Master, Guru, an Other - is then quite suddenly, unexpectedly, realised as one's own real Self. There is no other. No master. No guru. No god(s). No shabd. No heavens. No hells. No second. Just the crysallis-become-butterfly, unfurling it's wings, encompassing all & everything.

Hi Seeker,

Why is it people think they
need a Guru, or holyman
to touch the Presence ?

It is in the instincts of
man and woman to directly
touch the Presence.

There is nothing that can
be said about it. It cannot
be communicated.

There are no steps leading to
the Presence, there is no path
to the Presence.

It can only be felt.

Feeling the Presence in
this moment.

What book or religion can
teach us the way to our
Heart ?

Catherine, I agree - it's a new teaching - not just a change from the previous.

However, most followers are still in denial because they are unable to comprehend what is going on. They sit in satsang but have no idea what their guru is actually saying.

As humans - we are conditioned and we have filters we see the world through.

These filters stop us from hearing what is actually said - we hear what we want to hear.

Roger - salvation.
Is there such a thing as salvation?

Not in the sant mat sense of the soul being liberated - by geting to Sach Khand.

The Buddha said - there is no external saviour - not even me.

Salvation means to realize that there is only the ONE. Not to hear it - or talk about it - or give your opinion of it.

The simple realisation that there is only ONENESS - the absence of all phenomena - which is all a mind-creation.

It's not 'personal' because there is no 'person' and there are no 'benefits' because benefits are personal.

All practices hinder the simple realization because they buy into the idea that there is something to do and something to attain and someone to get 'there'.

A master, in my opinion, does serve a purpose - and that purpose is to push you beyond the limitations you create - your own concepts and your own conditioning.

This is what a zen master does. No teaching - no path.

The spiritual path is about accepting what is here now (loving what is, surrender to God’s will) however you want to say it. Any legitimate spiritual path is founded on this principle.

The result of accepting what is, is joy, happiness, love and being in the present moment.

Seeking experiences of higher realms, obedience to a person (even a gihf) are perversions or corruptions of the spiritual process. With few exceptions corruptions are all this world has to offer …whether it is from seeking a mate, a job, a car, or approval from another or a beautific vision.

It does not make much sense to criticise those who encourage seeking since virtually everyone is doing it, and such criticism is itself another form of seeking.

Since virtually all of our beliefs are founded on seeking it is good to question them.

No matter what effort you put forth to achieve the present moment or happiness it will not help you since you already are in the present moment.

Just as a man who is sitting still in a chair  deciding to make effort and enqiuries on how to sit still … any effort or movement he makes takes him away from the very thing he wants! Therefore no effort is necessary, only a deep understanding of the mechanics of seeking.

Corporations encourage seeking, politicians encourage seeking, schools do, women do, men do … the question is not who IS encouraging seeking, the question is: can there be found anyone anywhere who IS NOT
seeking and/or encouraging seeking?

Even the very people who point out the dangers of seeking often end up promoting seeking in some form, through their books, talks or organisations.

Seeking is all the ego is up to but no ego can end seeking anymore than a lit candle can bring about darkness. It cannot be done because anywhere the candle goes in it’s efforts to create darkness it brings light and so immediately fails.

Similarly anywhere the ego goes to bring an end to seeking it fails since it itself is the seeking principle. Those people who stop spiritual seeking yet continue materialistic seeking are deluded.

Those who stop material seeking yet continue spiritual seeking are deluded.
Those who tell themselves they have stopped seeking yet look for recognition or sex or money or power hoping it will make them happy are deluded.

Those who are humble hoping for recognition are deluded. Those who want anything from the world in order to be happy are deluded. Delusion is the order of the day!

If you find someone who is not deluded do not follow him! That is more seeking. Do as he has done and end your seeking and thus your delusion.

The ego is extremely tricky. It will tell you it is not seeking when it is. It will travel around the world decrying seeking in order to gain popularity and promote its own seeking.

How can we get out of bed without seeking? We can’ t. So what is the answer?
Awareness. Be aware seeking will not make you happy. Be aware that seeking plus attachment will make you unhappy. Go about your way unattached, your happiness never dependent on what happens.

There will always be people claiming they have reached the ultimate reality. To follow them is to seek.

If you meet the buddha from a seeking frame of mind you will only seek from him and your life will be miserable.

You can seek in any realm. Joy, Love or Sach Khand are a condition of happiness and can be found in any realm. You can experience sach khand on earth just as you can experience hell on earth. Heaven and hell are only gradations in level of seeking/attachment and not places for seekers to visit.

To want or seek is to carry a belief that something is missing in order for happiness to be here now. You cannot carry a belief that something is missing and be happy at the same time.

There is a failed technique of trying to find continuous lasting happiness through passing temporary experiences. Whether those experiences are of higher realms or drugs or what have you… it is a failed enterprise. Think it through. How can you get permanent continuous happiness through passing temporary experiences, shabd, kundalini or otherwise? You can get thrills and sensations that way but not joy and happiness.

Therefore give up the struggle! Relax! Stop seeking happiness (sach khand) because the very seeking of it places it out of reach. Simply BE. Nothing you can DO will help you BE the perfection. You were there before you believed something was missing and needed to be acquired.

" such criticism (of seekers) is itself another form of seeking."
quote 19 months left

I have waited a long time for someone
to say that.

It is true.

We claim to be big atheists on this club.

We revel in our knowledge.

But, loom at it this way.

All we big atheists do is talk
about God all the time.

Even God fearing church people do
not talk about God as much as we atheists
on this club.

Something is wrong with this picture.

Terribly wrong.

Why are we always thinking about God
if we are atheists ?

Because we are still seeking.

We sense there is something there
that we have missed.

We still have a deep desire to
merge into this oneness and love.

Our minds have figured out that religion
and masters won't help us find it.

Now we are at square one. Right where
started from.

Just waiting for Something to enter
our Hearts.

Something that by simply touching
opens our Hearts wide open.

Something that simply by touching
answers all questions without words
even being spoken.

How do we find the way to our own
Hearts ?

Well Mike,

"Our minds have figured out that religion and masters won't help us find it.

Well mine hasn't even reached that stage yet. Now what does that say about me?? lol

Marina :)))

Well I don't even agree that 'religions and masters' cannot help us.

It depends on which master and which religion.

Zen pretty much hits the nail on the head for me. Granted it's not a traditional religion - and it is possible to make a ritual even of zen. However, Zen pretty much is about waking up.

And a Zen-Master is pretty much essential because otherwise the seeker will make a relgion out of zen.

No master can do it for you - but like they say in zen - the master is a finger pointing to the moon. Just don't go grab the finger and think you have the moon.

RSSB is moving towards the zen concept of a master. I don't think it will ever get there because zen masters have to work individually with disciples to take them beyond their own personal barriers. This really can't be done from a stage to 50,000 people at time.

Also - there are no 'teachings' in zen. So there cannot be a satsang as RSSB conduct it.

Which actually brings me to another point. Who are all these idiots conducting satsang in the name of RSSB? They don't claim any qualifications (inner progress - whatever that is). They used to talk about the inner regions but have now decided (because their master has told them) that there are no regions. So now they give out new updated teachings.

WHy bother having satsangs held by disciples when the disciples are as lost as the sangat. It's a classic case of the blind leading the blind.

All they do it quote scriptures and give them their own meanings - to convince the listeners that all masters were on the path of surat shabd yoga. When in fact - it's a lie - but you can twist scriptures to make them mean what you want them to mean.

Well '19 months left'??? And Mike or anyone else........

I LOVED the post and Mike’s response! Swear to God, the post says it all in a nut shell to some part of me deep down. Now am I experiencing it? Well that’s another question!! Nietzsche made a comment about software on the other thread which made me think of computers and software and programming.........

When you say we are all seeking something – I can see that. My question is how do we, or should I say ‘I,’ stop seeking???
I am aware that I am looking for something (seeking) maybe I could call it my real ‘self’,’ being’ whatever, but I honestly don’t know how to stop looking.

I liken myself to a computer. Now I have seen and been ‘told’ that this computer is full of programming, soft ware and the like and I am trying to delete anything that is of no use to me or out dated. I am currently in RS looking for guidance, a pointer and although my ‘computer’ is getting cleaned up somewhat, there still seems to be a lot of programming I cannot delete. Also there seems to be a lot of ‘viruses’ there too. It’s like I can’t seem to get it back to its natural state!

Now, if I don’t seek to get rid of them or clean them up, they seem to continuously cause my computer some problems. I have tried giving up but that didn’t seem to work either – it was like pretending everything was in order and it was perfect in every way yet it didn’t seem like that. More pop ups!! This God damn thing won’t work properly and won’t do what it is supposed to do!

I CAN get the sense of ‘accepting’ everything and not being attached as ‘one way to go’ but on the other hand some of the programming seems to be out of control and popping up everywhere and is attached!!!

You wrote :” Seeking experiences of higher realms, obedience to a person (even a gihf) are perversions or corruptions of the spiritual process.
What you call obedience, I prefer to call guidance. I do not do EVERYTHING BJ says but I do take advice on what feels right and try to go in that direction. It is like being in a strange country and lost. What would we do??? We would stop and ask some native to point us in the right direction or better still follow them if they were going that way.(making sure they knew the way.). Well, at least I think most of the women would stop and ask – not too sure about the men:)). Funny SK was never high on my list.

All I ever really wanted was happiness – true happiness, not based on anything outside myself or circumstances.

You wrote :” You cannot carry a belief that something is missing and be happy at the same time."
How do I erase the belief then that something is missing? I can see the belief; I can say I’m aware of the belief still, I can tell myself to let it be but there it is, ‘something’ feels missing.

You say awareness is the answer. I am aware of some of this ‘programming’ and as I said earlier, getting the system cleaned up to a degree, but still the old programming is still there!

Ok maybe, my problem is looking for new programming! Updating it with new programmes (beliefs, ideas, groups etc) is still more of the same and actually is affected by the old stuff. But is there a special way to delete everything to get back to a blank screen – for any computer buff out there?

Marina ;)

yes - press the fucking master reset button.

if you can find it - oh and if you can't you can spend the rest of your like seeking the button.

The problem cannot be solved intellectually because gives you more ideas. Ideas are the root cause of the problem.

Trying to 'stop seeking' is itself a new problem because now you seek the magical solution on HOW to stop seeking.

Seeking that solution is itself seeking.

All seeking leads you away from the simple realisation that every child is born with.

It's knowing that you don't know - that nothing really matters - and there is nothing to know - nothing to attain and nothing to achieve. So every child is busy enjoying each moment of their life.

There IS nothing missing in the child's life - because LIFE IS LIFE.

what IS is what IS. What AIN'T is what AIN'T.

And you can quote me on that!

It ain't no big deal. Deal with it. Run away from nothing and seek nothing.

Like they say in zen - The great way is easy for those who have no preferences. Make the slightest distinction, however, and the way becomes impossible.

However - as humans we are CONDITIONED to believe that something is very wrong - and we are trying to right the wrong. That is all religion is trying to do.

But the truth is - nothing is wrong. Hence we don't need to do anything.

This simple realisation is nirvana.

But again the mind and the conditioning steps in and asks HOW.

And around you go again.

The buddha was seeking all his life - then in the end realised there was NOTHING. So seeking ended and he called that nirvana.

But now buddhists seek to get to nirvana through various practices - and are as trapped as anyone else.

Thanks Osho, for your message.

"This simple realisation is nirvana."
But the 'nirvana' word is dualistic terminolgy.

Does anyone know why there are only 19 months left? Could we please round this off to an even 20? Thanks Roger

"The great way is easy for those who have no preferences"

To have "no preferences" is impossible for anyone with a sense of conventional identity; the need to make oneself intelligible in a conventional sense.

Satori !!!!!!

Whoopeee !!!!

OK .... all you Zeniboppers whom
have arrived.


You say to me, what do you
mean by now what ?

You know what I mean.


You say to me your sense of self is gone
and everything is 'just happenning'.

You tell me you are a Buddha.


You say to me, there is nothing
after that.

The question of NOW WHAT
cannot be.

You say, We, the Zeniboppers, have
merged in the One.

You say to me, if you see us walking
down the road, kill us !

OK, I still see you.

Do you still want me to kill you ?


But the 'nirvana' word is dualistic terminolgy. wrote Roger.

Nirvana was the Buddha's attempt to use a word with no interpretations.

But of course after a while - the nirvana word also has a meaning and scholars dissect it to arrive at an exact meaning. So it bcomes another concept and a goal - and something to achieve - which again is dualistic.

So' let's call it a new word

Hakuna Matata (from Lion king) will do

So from now on the official phrase is Hakuna Matata.

To have "no preferences" is impossible for anyone with a sense of conventional identity

That is exactly the point - to lose the concentional identity of being a separate person.

Mike Williams:
You say to me your sense of self is gone
and everything is 'just happenning'.

You tell me you are a Buddha.


Now nothing. There is no NOW WHAT - because that is seeking a meaning to it all.

It means zero. There is no point to it. Seeking a point or a meaning is the cause of the search.

No meaning means no search - we can call the search team off because you will not find anything.

The Buddha found zilch - nothing - emptiness - and decided to call it Nirvana.

Which seemed like a good idea at the time.

But it's okay because I am around to rename it HAKUNA MATATA (sorry it's not as original as Nirvana - but I am a fan of Lion king)

The whole thing is a game and also a joke. Hence there was a zen master called Hotei who just laughed. When people asked him what his teaching was - he just laughed all the more.

Teaching - what fucking teaching? All teachings are more bullshit - the mind's attempt to understand. BEING does not need a teaching. You were born BEING - then you learned to be a GOOD person and do the RIGHT thing - ever since - you've been thrown out of the garden of eden - and you're trying to get back in.

you wrote: About two years ago, a chain of events unfolded that were simply too absurd to rationalize and were against the very grain of the philosophy that I had been brought up with.

Would you care to share what these events were?

Just intrigued.


You, SEEKER, 19 MONTHS and Donribb
have now posted some brilliant material..
Simply mind expanding.

And, completely and totally correct.

You have said, "No meaning means no search".

And, "To have "no preferences" is impossible
for anyone with a sense of conventional identity."

But, OSHO .... dear grasshopper.

What if the person does not have a conventional
sense of identity ?

What if they have no self at all ?

Is not enlightenment as Buddha taught, the
realization of no self ?

What if in the state of 'no self', there
existed some unknown preference ?

Just one last desire after having attained
the state of no self.

Would it not be to FEEL and touch ones ESSENSE ?

Is there not a difference between knowing one
does not have a self (the jnani) .....

and the jnani whom has answered the question

Instead of KNOWING you are nothing ....

Will you ever be happy until you reach home ?

Is it not true there is no place like home.

Is it not true we are all home sick ?

Can you FEEL your ESSENSE ?

Are you happy just knowing about your

Will you ever be happy unless you can touch
and FEEL your ESSENSE ?

There is no place like home ....

There is no place like home.

Hi Mike Williams, you’ve asked a great question.

Of course no one can answer it for you but that has never stopped me before so here goes.

Question: “What now?”

This was always MY question. For years!

What now? What now? Ok, I stop seeking, “what now?”

I will tell you what now. Constant joy, constant love, constant happiness.

Is that not enough?  Of course that is not enough. Why not? Because there is a desire for something more! A seeking of something more. But let’s think this through. If there is always a subtle belief that Gurinder has something I don’t, or Ramana has something I don’t, then there never was an experience of no-seeking, was there?

“What now?” is itself a confession of seeking.

In fact “seeking” or “desire” is a loud proclamation of “what now?” “What next?” (the present moment is obviously not good enough as it is). “What now?” ( I need something else). I need to experience the world as my own body. I need access to pure light in cosmic realms. I need to shoot off into the cosmic sound current and then explode into a blue pearl and white star and come to rest in an ocean of love light and bliss. Unfortunately the very desire for such things perpetuates the seeker-desire consciousness and makes such things all but impossible.

Kind of a catch 22 thing isn't it? If you love where you are at,  cosmic kinds of things may happen, but if you seek cosmic types of experiences they become rare and hard to come by? Why? Because you can't get to heaven by practicing dissatisfaction.

Wanting the present moment to be different than it is is the practice of dissatisfaction. “What now?” -- “I want something more” is the practice of dissatisfaction so don t be too surprised if it leads to more dissatisfaction rather than heaven.

“What now?” (I've stopped seeking) ... so where is the cosmic experience I am still seeking?

Non-seeking is not another method to get to Sach Khand, it’s more of an admission of failure for every method thats ever been tried.

Non-seeking is more for us failures who have tried everything else and found nothing to work. Those who still have hope, will continue striving, always believing that if they just use the method correctly somehow some temporary experience will happen that will result in a permanent change.

I know it sounds ridiculous on the surface, the belief that some temporary third eye experience will permanently change us. But for most of us who are into mysticism, reasoning things out is not our strong point.

Besides we religious mystic types are inclined to blame ourselves when things don’t work out anyway... part of the whole religious paradigm.

My suggestion? Forget about sach khand for a day and see if you can live in your own version of heaven even while that egomaniac of a boss is playing his games, the car doesn't t work, they’ve turned the
electricity off again and the self serve scanner at the grocery store doesn't t scan.

There is a very interesting assumption at work in sant mat. The assumption is that if you bring the energy up, catch the sound current and have one or many experiences of higher realms that this would end the ego. Unfortunately this is not true. Just as an LSD experience of a higher dimension does not end the ego, neither do sound current experiences do that. In fact such things often only give the ego a boost.

In my opinion such was the case with Swamiji Maharaj, the founder of RS. His statements like, “this is the highest, best and only way... all other paths are of a lesser nature,” etc are dead give aways.

Gurinder on the other hand seems to have gone beyond that. Gurinder seems to be bringing the non-dual viewpoint into RS, slowly, gradually.

Did I say sound current, kundalini type energy is not incredible as all get out? As a matter of fact such experiences are simply awesome. But they don t put an end to the ego, the seeking nature.

Perhaps if you have cosmic experiences of higher realms the grasping nature towards things on earth will lessen. But why not see through the grasping-seeking nature right now and be done with it? If you give someone a dollar he will stop clutching a penny but he will still clutch his dollar. The solution is not now to give him a hundred dollars. Have him see that the clutching-grasping nature is what hinders his free flow nature.

Someone asked Brian if he left Sant Mat because he failed at it's practice.In my case that may be a pretty accurate description. I was a complete and total loser failure at it.  In fact it goes far beyond just being a
failure in sant mat. I was a complete failure at every single thing I ever did to try to bring about happiness. Girlfriends, jobs, money, social status. Failed, failed and failed. None of it brought the happiness I was hoping for.

Admitting failure though did open the door for something wonderful. In fact it was the realisation of failure not just at Sant Mat but of everything. Every single thing I ever did to create happiness in my life failed. I put a lot of my eggs in the attaining higher realms basket thinking surely that will work.

However, buying things, getting approval, security, attaining realms, none of it worked at least not on a permanent basis.

Finally it dawned on this slow little brain that such things not only never had worked but never could work. How could something temporary give you something permanent? How could controlling your mind lead to freedom? It just leads to more controlling ... more ego nature.

How can doing something dissatisfying bring about perfect satisfaction ( nirvana)?

Doing a practice that is dissatisfying will only bring more dissatisfaction not the ending of dissatisfaction. Well as I said I never was the sharpest knife in the drawer but eventually it dawned on even me that  such enterprises have a bleak future.

In sant mat you only have 3 lifetimes to go before you can admit failure. Compared to millions of years of reincarnation that is a short time ... but all the same it's a long time of struggle and striving, licking a dry stone, wishing something would happen.

So to sum up, it not just that RS promotes seeking and there is some other path or some other activity that can get you there. EVERYTHING and almost everyone is promoting seeking and anything you try out of seeking will not bring about peace and stillness. It’s coming from a lie.

The lie is, “I need to get something that’s missing,” when in reality it was only your assumption that something was missing that caused something to be missing.

If you believe the lie that something is missing, you have no alternative but to struggle and strive to get back to wholeness. But it was always a lie, you were never missing anything until you believed you were.

You can never experience stillness while you struggle and seek. The slightest ... tiny, small, microscopic little assumption somewhere ... tiny little suspicion ... that something is missing ... that someone has something better than you ... the tiniest tiniest bit of it, resurrects the whole entire enterprise of seeking ... a seeking that can not rest. And with that lack of complete satisfaction ... well how can heaven be found there?

"Teaching - what fucking teaching? All teachings are more bullshit - the mind's attempt to understand. BEING does not need a teaching. You were born BEING - then you learned to be a GOOD person and do the RIGHT thing - ever since - you've been thrown out of the garden of eden - and you're trying to get back in."

---Osho, very good passage. Keep it up.


---Mike, please provide the absolutely exact correct defintion of ESSENSE. I will then proceed to process your message. Best wishes, Roger

Hello 19 Months and Roger,

So, should we change the name of
this clubs to The Club of the Big
Losers ?

We have all reached the point U. G.
Krishnamurti reached here.

We are all quite sure there is nothing
to be sought and no seeker to seek it.

We have all been duped by religion
and Godmen.

We sit around this club like bitter
old maidens, whose husbands have
run off on them.

We constantly wail into eternity
and our cries carry on to space.

We toss Zen and Taoism around like
one bobbing for apples at the County
Faire. Our faces are all wet and boy
do we look stupid with fruit hanging
out of our mouths.

We are the slobbering anihilists
of The Club of the Big Losers.

We are the bulls in the china shop
of religion. We smash everything
in sight from our pent up anger.

We crucify all belivers whom happlessly
wonder on to this club. Even women.

Our anger is so hot, Satan is afraid
he will get burned here.

We roast Gurus and faith with relish.

And, of course we are correct.

We are the masters of logic.

Cold .. hard .. dry ... tasteless logic.

None of us here has as much substance
as a marshmellow.

Our fluff would choke a horse.

We are the wondering nobodies, with
no where to go.

But, wait .... just wait a second.

What if we missed SOMETHING ?

SOMETHING that no one ever told
us about and that had never crossed
our minds.



I liked,

"SOMETHING that no one ever told
us about and that had never crossed
our minds."

--Much has not crossed my mind. But what is my mind? I don't know.


"We are the wondering nobodies, with
no where to go."

-Yes, we are no-bodies, or no-things. In non-duality, there is no 'where' to go or come. Good message, mike, as usual.

The mind is naturally greedy. It wants more - it seeks - it chases rainbows. Even 'non-seeking' becomes a goal - another thing to seek.

The Buddha - tired from a decade of intense searching - finally REALIZED that it is all futire because there is NOTHING to find.

When asked what he found - he said NOTHING. "So you failed then?"
NO - said the Buddha - I succeeded - becasue now all seekign has ended because there is nothing to seek.

As long as there is the possibility of finding comething - the mind continues to seek. The search may become more subtle. It may seek the present moment instead of Sach khand.

It may seek to stop seeking - which is also seeking.

There are many levels of subtlety to searching. The more subtle seeker laughs at the seeker who follows a duality path.

Yet is unable to see - he is doing the same in a more subtle form.

Finally when he can see his own traps - he laughs - not at others - but firstly at himself and the madness of it all.

I have uploaded a video on youtube on sant mat - new teachings versus old. Just because I had nothing better to do.
Here's the link for anyone who has nothing better to do than watch me rant on about sant mat 2.0 Afterwards I realized I should ahve called it 3.0 - but I was too lazy to do it all again.

the link

19 months left, great comment. You nailed the whole "seeking so I'll never want to seek again" and "desiring to end desire" thing.

Well Nietzsche, Tara, Osho, Brian and everyone else.

Thank you for you posts, I enjoyed them all and there is a lot I am 'pondering' on.

I have to say, 19 months post - well, I 'blame' them!! Seeking seeking and more seeking now seems to becoming less seeking, less seeking and even less seeking. Could this be leading to no seeking? THAT very question is itself seeking :}}(seeking an answer)

This is the second time I tried to reply for hours now and although this morning I had a lot to 'share/say'- I was away all day and when I got home each time I tried to respond - I couldn't. :)) Everything is a blank - not in a bad way but still a blank.

I am trying not to 'make reasons' as to why... reminds me of the Boomtown Rats song "Tell me why I Don't Like Mondays"

And he can see no reason
Cos there are no reasons
What reasons do you need to be shown

Marina :)))

Now What !?

How miraculous and wondrous,
Hauling water and carrying firewood

Layman Pang

The camel carries its own water.

The camel instinctively knows
how to drink. No one has to
tell the camel how to quench its

The grasshopper must search
every day.

Even if the grasshopper does not
admit it is thirsty.

And, swears it will never look for
water again.

I liked the replied blog author gave to that guy. Cults like RSSB and all santmat shit preaching same fake principles which dont mean anything. They come up with any new fact in their enpty minds and they think its true, people who following them in hundred thousand of numbers are just meaningless lives, time and resources of these cult followers dont matter at all, So they just gather and love these mkake believe theories of some anami desh, kaal khand and yada yada. The followers listen to the bullshit horseshit and ratshit from these fake sants and take it as word of god, its so terrible to see how foolish and blind faith people have, no open ness, no willingness to debate. Thats all the effect of kaliyug that real religion, spiritual practices have lost and these fake businesses are left to make people anti-real-religion. Never knew some of facts author wrote in replies to the angry email writer. Their faith tells them not to have anger, what a horsecrap principle is this, being angry is so important to livem we are humans, not mud or shit, we have emotions, we react and we need to live like a man an not a dead.

I loved the answer of author about having this crap santmat faith as his ex-faith. Really great replies.

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