So you don't believe in God, but you want the benefits that come with being religious: feeling special, not being afraid of dying, embraced by a loving divine power, and such.
No problem.
You can keep your atheism or agnosticism and have your Godly presence also. This is the message that I draw from a fascinating study about placebos, which found they can be medically effective even when people know they're getting a fake drug.
Patients can benefit from being treated with sham drugs even if they are told they contain no active ingredient, scientists have found. The finding suggests that the placebo effect could work without the need for any deception on the part of the doctor, as had been previously thought.
...To investigate the limits of placebo, Prof Ted Kaptchuk of Harvard Medical School's Osher Research Center divided 80 patients suffering from irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) into two groups: one received no treatment and the other was given dummy pills to take twice a day. The second group was told by the doctors that they would be taking "placebo pills made of an inert substance, like sugar pills, that have been shown in clinical studies to produce significant improvement in IBS-symptoms through mind-body self-healing processes".
"Not only did we make it absolutely clear that these pills had no active ingredient and were made from inert substances, but we actually had 'placebo' printed on the bottle," said Kaptchuk. "We told the patients that they didn't have to even believe in the placebo effect. Just take the pills."
The results, published in the scientific journal PLoS ONE, showed that the placebo pills were more effective at relieving symptoms compared with doing nothing at all.
The mind is marvelously mysterious. Expectations can become reality, even when what we hope to have happen is relief from a physical problem which seemingly wouldn't be affected by faith in a sugar pill.
It makes sense that relief from a spiritual or meaning-of-life malaise would be even more easily produced by a placebo.
Since there's no demonstrable evidence that God exists, or that religious dogma is founded in some sort of objectively real divinity, I've assumed that the benefits of faith only accrue to those who genuinely believe in the truth of their chosen religion. But this study implies that even a belief in a fake God can make someone feel better.
Why not?
Anyone who gets deeply immersed in a well-written novel knows how easy it is to feel the truth of a false narrative. That is, we can simultaneously (1) realize that we're engaged in an act of fiction, while (2) enjoying the story being played out in our mind.
(Whenever I order coffee, am smiled at by the charming youthful female barista, and think "Some women are attracted to gray-haired older guys," I'm doing exactly that: fooling myself with a fantasy which makes me feel good even though I know what I'm doing.)
After reading about this placebo study in a science magazine, I've been experimenting with bringing back some religious rituals into my morning meditation. It's been kind of fun, this play-acting.
I'll repeat the familiar mantra that I spoke silently in my mind for many years when I followed the teachings of an Indian guru. Or I'll pretend that I'm a mystic Christian and use "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me" as a meditation focus, even though I don't believe in the saving-power of Jesus.
Saying "Namu amida butsu" also feels good, regardless of the fact that Pure Land Buddhism and me don't have much in common.
Sugar pills can work, whether of the physical or mental variety, even when we know that they contain no active ingredients other than what we imagine them to have.
Finally we can stop rationalizing our believe we just take some absurd images and connect them with a stupid story and there it is our own personal religion :) No need to argue as it is our own untrue story only. :)
Posted by: Nietzsche | May 20, 2011 at 03:12 AM
"You can keep your atheism or agnosticism
and have your Godly presence, also."
quote Brian
Use the stick to dig a hole. Once the
hole is dug, throw the stick away.
We know there is no God. But, is there
a Presence ?
People think there can't be one without
the other, because that's what they have
been told.
This is the logic of the jnani.
An inescapeable conclusion.
But, what if the jnani made a mistake ?
The jnani knows he does not exist and
has no self. He knows God is unconscious
and does not exist. He knows that if God
existed he would be a monster.
The jnani knows all effort is fruitless.
And, he is correct. Searching is a waste
of time. An abomination.
But, what if there is SOMETHING that
that has nothing to do with God ?
SOMETHING that requires no effort,
or seeking ?
SOMETHING so simple, it would be the
last thing you would ever think of ?
SOMETHING only a child could figure out.
An absolute simplicity.
SOMETHING that could only be felt
and not known by dry thought.
Can dry thought quench the inherent
thrist of man ?
The jnani may be correct ...
but, he is still thirsty.
The more the thrist is denied,
the more thirsty the jnani becomes.
But, when the tounge swells up in
the mouth of the jnani, he will only
have one last question.
NOW WHAT ?
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 20, 2011 at 05:19 AM
I really like your post . The study is really interesting and makes sence how you apply it to religion. I will pass this on.
Posted by: Mardee | May 20, 2011 at 10:41 AM
Thought provoking post!
We get comfort (or feel better) from what we believe in. Like getting the benifits.
So do you think the placebo effect is working the 'opposite' way?
Like getting the benifits of placebo effects (negitive effects)
Oh just read the link and found:
"This is the amazing world of the nocebo effect, where negative expectations can induce unpleasant symptoms, in the absence of a physical cause.
Wow, it does make me think about spiritual practices and the 'placebo' effect and the 'nocebo' effects.
I think I have been taking big doses of placebos and nocebos!
Marina :)
Posted by: Marina | May 20, 2011 at 11:43 AM
CAUTION : YOU ARE ABOUT TO FEEL
THE PRESENCE RIGHT HERE AND NOW.
YOU ARE ABOUT TO BECOME ENLIGHTENED
AT THIS VERY MOMENT.
"remain aware of yourself and
all else becomes known"
quote Ramana Maharshi
But, few people know how to
touch them self.
Everyone is trying to see
and hear reality.
Nobody is trying to FEEL
reality.
And, that is the key that
unlocks the door to the
great mystery of life.
As Ramana points out, there
are levels of experience.
But, no stages, or steps to
reality.
One is either in reality,
or not in reality.
The reason we cannot feel
this reality, is because no
one told us it can only be felt.
Our minds are not simplistic
enough to understand it.
We keep thinking we have to
do something to touch reality.
If you could touch the Presence,
would it not be a remarkable
event in your life ?
This Presence lies as a FEELING
on top of your head. From the top
of your forehead back over your
hair to the crown point.
It feels like the whole top
of your head. This is not
a common sensation from nerves
as logic would dictate.
It can only be FELT by sensing
yourself in this area.
This Presence, or ESSENCE, is
the key.
One only need touch it with FEELING.
Do it right now. FEEL the top of
your head.
FEEL something ?
Of course.
That's it !
THAT is what Ramana is referring to.
THAT is why only a child can understand.
THAT subtle FEELING is the PRESENCE.
When you FEEL this, you are on sacred
ground. Not holy ground, sacred ground.
So, after all these years, after all
your searching and years of yoga.
You find out the truth.
YOU ARE TOUCHING THE PRESENCE RIGHT
NOW.
MAKE NO MISTAKE, YOU ARE ON SACRED
GROUND AT THIS VERY MOMENT.
This PRESENCE cannot be spoken to,
nor will it speak to you.
It cannot be called self, or soul,
nor God.
Absolutely nothing can be said
about it.
This PRESENCE is now your best friend.
Wherever you go, whatever you do
always FEEL it.
Remember, all else will become known.
THIS IS THE GREAT SECRET.
And, the most important thing you
will ever know in your life.
Only a child can understand the logic.
Just FEELING THAT PRESENCE is all
that need be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_myT_ogsm5Q&NR=1
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 20, 2011 at 06:36 PM
There is a lot of talk of cults and I can’t seem to understand why a few groups are being singled out.
For instance, I am beginning to see the whole freaking world as a cult if you want to look at it that way. We get programmed right from the start or so it seems to me. My parents where a cult. My school was a cult. My church was a cult. Everyone with their opinions, telling you what’s right or wrong. Programming, programming and more programming! Brainwashing, brainwashing and more brainwashing. All placebos and nocebos!!!!
Everybody I talk to, listen to seems to be coming from their own perspective – their own cult.
Yes, I am feeling a bit exasperated with it all at this moment. Am I blaming anyone? No. Just having my little vent to get it out of my system. I am sick and tired of all that is seemingly right or then seemingly wrong. Seemingly one way and then it could be the other. Trying to make sense of something that can’t seem to be ‘figured’ out.
Yesterday I felt really strange. Full of grief and yet happy in that. I did go to look at one of Peter Ralston’s books which I think was about the body and how we use it consciously or unconsciously (he is a martial arts master who was the first westerner to win the title and into he is into consciousness and questioning the mechanics of it all) and my reaction was ‘no, I’m not interested in the body stuff.' It dawned on me then that, as I obviously view my body with distaste or have done in the past, maybe as a result of seeing the body as bad or maybe because to ‘escape’ feelings I spent a lot of time out of my body in my head – as a defense mechanism, it came to me that how I use my body is very violent.
What I mean by that is, every movement is rushed, fast, hurried – no gentleness. For instance, when taking clothes out of the washing machine, it is like get them folded quick. When hanging out the clothes, its like, all I can see is the last item, focusing on the last item – the end of the act. Same thing going for a walk, not enjoying the walk but can’t wait until I’m on the home ward journey. Having a shower, always the end in view sometimes not even aware of how I got to the end. Same with driving, fast, speed, I’m not on the journey; I’m focusing on the arrival. (Speeding ticket here beside me to show that) Even if I’m not in a hurry, the focus is on the end. Quick, fast, speed.
I guess what I am trying to put across is I seem to be getting through life rather than living it. Maybe it is control – not sure. It came to me; I am never where I’m at! Always in the future. Like taking the clothes out of the washing machine, I’m at the line thinking about hanging them up. Going for a walk, I’m not on the walk but at home making dinner.
In that moment I saw it. I was sitting on the chair and I went to go to the bathroom. The habitual impulse was there. I suddenly realised my steps. They felt like steps I had never seen before. I was aware of one step at a time. I was aware of the whole journey, every step noticed. Oh boy did it feel strange! :) I thought ‘where the hell have I been all my life?’ Who is living my life? Weird. It is like always being in the future – got to achieve something or in the past – regretting. Never present.
As some saying I heard somewhere: ‘Life is something that happens to you, when you’re doing something else’.
Just reading your post Mike and talking of Ramana and the presence – and I have looked at WHOLE thread that Gunther and Brian are corresponding on, and you talk of your experiences of the RF(s), do you think what Sadhu Om says on his writings on Ramana is correct in your opinion that there are two ways to go:
(1) Self Enquiry way – focusing on the 1st (me, I) person, back to the no ‘person’
(2) Surrender to the ‘Guru’ (2/3rd person not sure which) as written in the Sastras, which eventually leads to the same place ‘I am that’, 1st person.
As the saying goes ‘all roads lead to Rome’. In the (2) way it seems to me that you focus on the 3rd (you) person but that process as Sadhu Om explains will eventually lead to the 1st person and then to the no person thing. Like meditation helps you realise there is nothing to do, to ‘get’ there.
Would that not explain the seemingly contradictions that are part of a lot of discussions?
I would really like to hear your or anybody else’s comments on this.
But please be gentle, I am feeling very vulnerable this minute:))
Just after realising that this (above) seems to be all back to self-doubt – again needing validation. Which stems back to the core feeling of I am bad, not as good as everyone else. This reminds me of stuff when I read the postings. I’ll read one and think ‘oh, yeah, that sounds good’, then someone will reply and I’ll think ‘oh, yeah, that sound good too’. I can see everyone’s point of view. It is like – I have no solid footing. I look down and there is no solid ground for me to stand on. Well which view is right?
Marina :)
Posted by: Marina | May 21, 2011 at 01:28 AM
On “hinessight”, ah my little joke to myself, even though I’m sure you have heard it before, but hey some jokes never go out of fashion! , I liked Osho’s take about SM on YouTube.
Now my question is ‘what is the annoyance at RS changing its teachings’? (Just to take one point at a time leaving out the money thing on this occasion)
Let’s take Microsoft for an example – it is easy to be objective here, bring it back to computers.
Microsoft have had different ‘upgrades’ of their soft ware as most of us are aware of.
Do we say, they have fooled us, they are wrong, first they say one thing and then they say, well it is not that way anymore some things have changed a little and some a lot.
But this new version should be more of an assistance to you they say. It works better we are told.
Now some of us may say, we don’t agree, they are lying, that is not their experience or they don’t like Microsoft they prefer Apple/Mac or Linux - some even say they don't use software at all. Taking Microsoft, some say it isn’t better or isn’t helping them out. And that is fine. They may come up with reasons as to why – it seems more difficult to use (practice), it doesn’t make sense to them that they prefer to do it their own way with a pen and a piece of paper. Some others may complain that it is all about money, these upgrades (but I did say above about leaving money out for the moment as it only adds more complications)Other s say they are fooling us, it is no different mainly packaged differently..... Some hold on to the old system saying they know it well, that it is working for them. Others have doubts, should they go with the new version or give up on it completely?
While some others may agree and say that it is making their life easier, that they can do things a lot faster and more efficient, that these ‘changes’ are beneficial. Yes, they can see the workings of it and it seems to bring more progress. They are happy with it.
Different strokes for different folks. It doesn’t mean anybody is wrong. At the end of the day, what is the purpose, the end product? To achieve something we need to produce, to just have fun, to realise our potential, to produce some documents or to express ourselves with the software word etc.
We must not forget that Microsoft or Apple IS NOT us. It is just a useful instrument, or not. People have different preferences for what their ‘needs’ are.
Why, oh why then do we have to make something wrong or someone else wrong because we don’t see any use in it for ourselves? Why do we get angry, reactive if someone else’s experience is different to ours or if someone disagrees with us? Do we know the whole complete picture –EVERYTHING about how computers work?
Is it because we ALL have self-doubt at the end of the day? Because, if we look at it from this point of view, it is saying something about our ‘selves’, NOBODY else - it never is about anyone else.
Just curious.....
I had a little confusion on which thread to put this ‘data’ as it could go on ‘amazing changes in RS’ but then this is about COMPUTERS. Also the data came about because of my previous ramblings on self-doubt post, so I shall stick it here!
Marina :)
Posted by: Marina | May 21, 2011 at 02:58 AM
Well Brian,
I had an interesting experience yesterday which I'd like to share.
I went to collect my car from the garage as it needed repairing and my husband drove me to pick it up. On our journey home, my husband took a detour to get money from a bank link. I reached home before him and was starting to make lunch when he called to say he had a flat tyre could I bring a jack that was in the shed to him as the one he had didn't seem to be working.
What I am getting to is, the way he asked or the way he 'communicated' it. I said to him 'so you want me to bring the jack to you' which was only 10 minutes away. His reply was 'if it's no trouble and you aren’t busy with something else'. My reaction was 'no, it's no trouble, I'll be there in 10 minutes' and I found myself smiling at the conversation.
It was only this morning at breakfast when we were discussing communication after my daughter called me and asked me if I could do her a favour.
She proceeded to tell me that: ‘seeing as I was a caring, kind, wonderful person I know you wouldn’t mind doing me a favour’!!!
I replied laughingly and told her to stop the manipulation and go ahead and ask the favour, she was always entitled to ask but I would see if it suited me. :) (wow, I didn’t fall for the manipulation of ‘the good feeling’)
This led to a discussion between me and my husband about how ‘we’ communicate. It brought back yesterdays experience with the jack and I laughingly told him that I thought it was funny how he had asked me, that you would think he was asking a stranger or a friend, not his wife.
If it was me, I said, I would have expected him to come and assumed he would come with the jack. His reply was ‘Marina that would have been violent communication!’ We had previously some months back got Marshall Rosenbergs books on ‘Non Violent Communication’.
But HE seems not just to have read it but is living it!
We then talked about a book he was reading about some writer who has taught in schools and prisons who said that there was no difference in teaching in either place as in both places people were there against their will. :)).
In his book he talks about communication and said:
” So it is wonderfully acceptable, to disagree with me. It’s wonderfully acceptable to disagree with anyone. Just be agreeable, at all times respectful, in the way you disagree. Be full of thought, and thoughtful in your disagreement.”
I think it is very interesting and thought provoking and insightful on how we all use language to get across or ideas, opinions, truth, feelings, emotions, questions, needs, wants, desires........and how we communicate this to each other. I would like to ask your good self or anyone else, how you see yourself communicating, on this blog, at home or wherever. Are we all acting from our own ‘placebos’ and ‘nocebos’ (attitudes, beliefs, assumptions, integrity.....)and are these giving us the results we want?
What makes you COMMUNICATE the way you do?
Marina :)
Posted by: Marina | May 22, 2011 at 04:44 AM
Osa kept saying the people are confused because of some fault of their own. They're confused because they've been lied to and mislead for decade by a bunch of fraud guru who didn't what they were talking about and making up all kinds of wild bull s$it and grandizing themselves. Sant mat has always been about guru worship and service to the guru as the absolute most important thing in life.
If will be interesting to see how many people stay deluded by this fraud and stay with life distroying religious cult.
Cyfer
Posted by: louie Cyfer | May 22, 2011 at 07:10 AM
But when do the five blue boys come poppin out ? and don't forget about those 100,000 thousand scorpins stings at the time of death (that is, unless you kiss the guru ass).
how can you turn such a ridiculous fraud into something ligitimate and keep any followers ?
just worship the guru day and night, remember he's more important than anything. Even friends and family. Remember they are really your evil enemies !
Posted by: louie Cyfer | May 22, 2011 at 07:19 AM
INCORRUPTIBLE BODY BUDDHIST MONK BAFFLES SCIENCE
He remained in Siberia, and in 1927 he announced it was time for
his passing. He asked the lamas to join him in meditation and
begin funeral rites, and he died while meditating in the lotus
position at the age of 75. In accordance with his will, the
Khambo Lama's body was buried in a wooden box sitting upright
in the lotus position.
Interestingly, Itigilov's testament also requested that monks
exhume his body after a period of some years. This was done
once in 1955 and again in 1973, after some difficulty in
locating the body. Both times they found the body perfectly
preserved and still sitting upright (which a dead body cannot
normally do for more than two weeks). The monks did not
publicize the astonishing phenemon due to the anti-religion
policies of the Communist government.
The body of Dasha-Dorzho Itigilov was transferred to
Ivolginksy Datsan and publicly unveiled for the first
time in September 2002, 75 years after his death in 1927. His
body has decayed slightly since its exhumation but still remains
in a state of preservation that baffles scientists and draws
believers by the thousands.
In November 2004, Professor Viktor Zvyagin of the Federal Center
of Forensic Medicine examined Itigilov's body in Ivolginsk and
conducted analyses of hair, skin and nail specimens in Moscow.
He concluded that Itigilov's body was in the condition of someone
who had died 36 hours ago. "In my years of practice I have
encountered quite a few instances of preserved bodies, but
those were either the result of mummification" or extreme
environmental conditions, Zvyagin said. "But this is something
different, and for me, incomprehensible. It's a phenomenon that
calls for the most detailed research."
Use your blow up bottom right of your screen to see him
http://static.atlasobscura.netdna-cdn.com/images/place/ivolginsky-datsan.655.teaser.jpg
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 22, 2011 at 10:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ETr7_GtHw
Buddhist Monk from last post in above video
Below video, Brian practicing as Shaolin Monk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LkhVeW7VV0&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Posted by: Mike Williams | May 22, 2011 at 11:27 PM