How Sant Mat is moving from duality to oneness

OshoRobbins has put up an interesting series of three videos that explain the difference between Sant Mat 1.0 and Sant Mat 2.0.

I've blogged about this in "Sant Mat, version 2.0" and "Has Gurinder Singh revised to Sant Mat to v. 3.0?"

Whatever the version number, these YouTube presentations do a good job of making clear how the Radha Soami Satsang Beas version of the Sant Mat philosophy has evolved to become a far different creature from the traditional teachings.

More broadly, OshoRobbins points out how a dualistic view of God, heaven, soul, and such can't co-exist with a monistic perception. If the heart of reality is indeed one, no amount of journeying on a dualistic vehicle will get you there.

Have a look and listen. The three videos total about 15 minutes, with the first 30 seconds common to each. They're worth your time if you're at all interested in this sort of stuff. 

 

 

 

Comments

[David]

It seems to me that the purpose of this is to point out that we have no free will and are nothing but puppets of "oneness". Needless to say, this is manifestly not the case.

Look into studies in prayer and healing. There are statistically significant effects that are not due to chance or coincidence in double blinded scientific laboratory tests. This doesn't mean that all prayer is action directed and issues from independent activators but sometimes IT DOES.

I do not believe that it is confusion between oneness and duality, it is INCLUSION. There is nothing confusing about saying that God is personal and impersonal at one and the same time. It is a large mind that can hold this truth. Small minds, well, maybe it confuses them.

And it is not at all clear what is meant by "duality" here. Duality denotes 2 things that are symmetrically opposite that exist in the same place. It could be called paradoxical but none of this is news. The very meeting or midpoint of opposites is rest or infinity enlosed and contained within itself. There is no contradiction or confusion here.

As for Sant Mat version 1 with reference to Sach Khand, this is not a known heirachy of states of consciousness according to western and other eastern spiritual practices.

[Mike Williams]

Brilliant OSHO,

It is all due to Faquir Chand.

We old timers are stunned to see
this change take place in our
lifetimes.

It will take many years for the
masses at Beas to learn the new
religion. People will have to
get smarter faster.

But, it is all for the better.

I agree with Gurinder. He should
get rid of all the old Beas theology
and history books.

Beas needs a fresh start.

People are ready for it and want it.

[lulalake]

FANTASTIC Video. Well explained. Thanks so much for posting this.

[Marina]

Came across this - thought it was beautiful!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x0UbAAj6jI&feature=relmfu

Marina :)

[Marina]

I like the word David uses in his post above "Inclusion".

You cannot have oneness by rejecting part of the whole. In rejecting part of the whole - division, two, reality.

But we all do it until we don't.

It seems that there could be a book coming out on BJ. It could be called 'The Biography of A Spiritual Teacher & Good Business Man'. He could learn a LOT about himself!

Marina :)

[jeremy29]

The video is lucid and clear. Such a radical change. Gosh. Charan Singh would be spinning in his grave (if he had one. I have long left the path but at the time I found it fascinating. Just listening to version 1.0 brings back fond memories. Version 2.0 leaves me cold, I don't think I would ever have been attracted to this sort of "new age" teaching!

[jeremy29]

Under this version (2.0), why bother to have a master lol

[Jayme]

Very nice lesson.

[TonyM]

I enjoyed the video - thanks to OshoRobbins for making this available.

Still, watching the videos, and reading the discussions on Santmat 1.0, 2.0, etc... I'm not so sure there's been an upgrade.

First, we are talking about RSSB, not the many other santmat groups in existence.

But let's assume this applies to RSSB only.

We don't have anything down in writing from RSSB about 2.0. We have comments made by the guru. That's fine, but one statement from a guru, heard by 2 different people, can result in 10 different religions.

We don't have the commitment of those comments to text. The vast majority of a satsangi's learning comes from the traditional texts, and the weekly satsangs which also (as far as I'm aware) follow the traditional teachings.

I think this exemplifies something that is true about most religions: they can be interpreted in different ways, yet each interpretation is arguably consistent with the teachings.

That's why you get breakaway groups. If you lean towards the nondual stream of thought, that's what will notice in the teachings.

If you lean towards the dualistic, effort-is-required stream of thought, then you notice that and emphasise that.

Just like when you buy a new car... suddenly you notice cars of your model and make everywhere.

I have come across these concepts in traditional RSSB santmat. The idea that we think we are making an effort, but ultimately we don't. The idea that we think we are separate, but ultimately we are not. I recall (but not specifically) some of Charan's statements in the books having this distinct flavour.

Perhaps there is more emphasis on these aspects of the teachings in Gurdiner's satsangs (it's hard to tell when they're not made publicly available).

I haven't done any statistical analysis, but I suspect those of us who agree with the 2.0 assessment have leanings towards zen and nondual thinking?

[TonyM]

Further to my last post, I have the greatest trouble accepting that Santmat 2.0 is about not meditating.

I'd say it would be a rare satsang where the vow to meditate for 2.5 hours was not being drummed into the listeners.

I appreciate OshoRobbin's take on this, but I feel (and it's just a feeling) that he may be trying to slot in his preference for nondual philosophy into santmat, just as santmat sometimes strains the interpretation religious texts in trying to find in them references to 'light' and 'sound' in order to univeralise and thereby legitimise the teachings.

[Paule]

I'm sure this is your best post ever, though i've only read a few of them. But i disagree with those who say this is a new teaching. I have read and heard all this from Maharaj Charan Singh. Just go back through his writings and his tapes. I've come across Allan Watts (in the following videos) years ago and really liked him but realize now that I didn't GET him like i do now. If I hadn't become a Sant Mat meditator I would never have survived the emotional storms in my life. I don't face things, I run. And always in the fashion of the proverbial "out of the frying pan into fire." Sant Mat has given me an anchor until the storms came to an end.

[Marina]

Whether RS is 'changing' or not; it is important to understand the difficulty of comunicating 'truths' as TonyM fairly said above "one statement from a guru, heard by 2 different people, can result in 10 different religions."
Same in all areas of life. Chinese whispers!

Here is a quote from the internet that explains it better than I can:

"To make a powerful impact on a listener, a teacher, aside from his/her personal presence or transmission abilities, has to use the imperfect logic and inadequate device of language in order to communicate anything with clout to the misinformed. In other words, he must often use the decrepit tools of logic and rhetoric, tossed into a blender made of paradox, seasoned with nuance, and served at right angles to the prevailing cultural paradigms of the listener, in order to have an impact on the student at all.

Also Paule, I too would have seen RS/SM as having been my anchor as I have said in previous posts.
I do agree however that it is important to question why we do the things we do and for what reasons. Only we (ourselves) can tell.

Marina :)

[Mike Williams]

How much intrepretation is needed for

1. The master does not come at death.
2. The inner planes don't exist.

[David]

What do you mean by "inner planes"?

[EVILBUSTER]

@ OSHO ROBBINS

U BLOODY FAT JOKER SPEAKING AND PREACHING ALL LIES

ALL OF THE POINTS PRESENTED OVER HERE R EITHER BLUNT LIES OR WORDS/STATEMENT TWISTED TO SHOW SANTMAT IN WRONG LIGHT BY OSHO ROBBINS

SOME OF THE BLUNT LIES HERE ARE

1] NO MEDIATATION

2] DUALITY

3] MASTER NOT COMING AT DEATH

4] NO REGIONS EXIST

[Marina]

Well Evilbuster,

I think Osho's take on RS is just pointing out what the confusion seems to be going about. I don't take it that Osho is spreading lies and I am in RS.

There does seem to a different way the teaching is being presented. Now what that means...... I am not sure.

But whether for RS or against, I do think we are ALL entitled to our own opinion and our OWN experience.

Leaving religion or spirituality out of it, I don't like to hear someone, anyone being personally slated for how they look. That is not the issue here.

Coming back to religion/spirituality whether RS v-1.0 or RS v-2.0, I think neither of these versions would condone putting others down in this way.

Marina :)

[EVILBUSTER]

@ TARA, MARINA

Ill clarify all the points one by one which have been presented in a false manner by osho robbins

first let me tell u about osho robbins This guy wants to run his shop by targetting RS/SM bcoz this quys earns money by running a training program known as www.TransformationDay.com this guy is not spiritual person but a hardcore commercial consuler who charges high fees for his sessions so a guy like this speaking about rs/sm does not command respect and acceptance to wat he is preaching

Comming to points presented in the video by this "LIAR" robbins Ill clarify each point one by one

1] DUALITY TO ONENESS

WAT A BLATANT LIE SM/RS HAS ALLWAYS SPOKEN OF ONE GOD INFACT ALL THE PERFECT MASTERS CHRIST,NANAK,KABIR HAVE PREACHED THE SAME SO THE CONCEPT OF DUALITY IS MADE UP BY MR LIAR ROBBINS

2] NO ONES COMES AT DEATH

AGAIN A STATEMENT WHICH IS TWISTED BY THIS MAN ALMIGHTY BABAJI ALLWAYS SAYS IN SATSANG AND IVE HEARD IT A COUPLE OF TIMES THAT IF WE DONOT DO MEDITATION BABAJI SAYS THAT THERE IS NO GUARANTEE IF THE MASTER COMES OR NOT IT IS HIS WILL

3] NO MEDITATION

HAHAH WAT A JOK BY THIS JOKER ALMIGHTY BABAJI IN EACH AND EVERY SATSANG SAYS THAT ONLY ONE THING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT IN THIS LIFETIME THATS DHYAN OR MEDITATION

4] NO REGIONS EXIST

ROBBINS IS MAKING ME LAUGH HARDER INFACT IF ANY OF U IS INITIATED U WULD BE KNOWING WAT IM TALKING

5] GOD IS HERE

IF ANYONE OF U IS INTIATED HE WULD KNOW THE MEANING OVER HERE

6]SOULS DOES NOT GO ANYWHERE

AGAIN A BLATANT LIE BY THIS MAN IVE HEARD MANY TIMES IN SATASANG THAT IF A PERSON DOES NOT DO DHYAN HIS SOULS DOES NOT GO ANYWHERE BUT WANDER IN 84 LAKH BIRTHS

I THINK I MIGHT HAVE CLARIFIED ALL YUR DOUBTS

[Seeker2011]

Right, Babaji-G, that’s got the ball rolling. Nice slot on U-Tube, you’ve gone global with the One. Now what next?

Hey, steady Grasshoppin-Seeker, there’s only so many spanners a self-respecting Guru can lob in at once. But, OK, few hints about practice might be fun. Let’s see how we might begin to realign RS practice to fit with my new philosophy of the One.

Wow, Babaji-G, what are you up to now? Surely you’re not going to tell me that along with RS philosophy/cosmology – all that stuff about inner regions, gods, radiant forms, guru appearing at death, heavens, hells, Sach Khand – being a loada (your words) ‘Rubbish’ that the practice of this Path is also a loada ‘Rubbish’?

Hoppin’, I couldn’t have said it better myself! Get this down & get it posted. Ready?

1. Anyone within the Sangat denying the roots of Surat Shabd Yoga as grounded in ancient Vedic & Upanishadic practices – of Kundalini (Shabdabraman), Mantrayana, Pranayana yoga – is talking a loada ‘Rubbish’.

Wow! You mean I should now steer well clear of satsangis, that’s gonna be most of them, who deny the relevance of such ancient yogic practices as kundalini (Shabdbrahman), mantrayana yoga. Why? Because, Hoppin’, you can bet your bottom dollar they have had zero inner experience beyond fantasising an imaginary friend!

2. Anyone within the Sangat asserting the need for a prescribed form & duration of daily meditation practice as essential to the realisation of the ONE is talking a loada … I’ve got it, Babaji-G, … ‘Rubbish’.

Wow! Thought that was set-in-stone, Babaji-G? Hoppin’ be very clear, no amount of meditation by you – doer – will get you to the One. So, 5 mins, ½ hour, 2 ½ hours, what’s it matter? And, while we’re at it, there really is no need to go fantasising imaginary friends unless, of course, you want to. In fact, that can be a very dodgy practice. So just remember, I am not coming/going/manifesting anywhere!

Right, Babaji-G. So, if that’s the case what about Bhajan? Don’t I need to squat & stick fingers in my ears? Oh grief, Grasshoppin-Seeker, now you’re just being plain daft! Shabd of what I used to call the lower regions – up to what Faqir calls Bhanwar Gupha – is located no where else but in your brain & you are as likely to hear that with eyes-wide-open as in meditation. Hearing Shabd depends on your concentration, that’s all. So, my advice? Forget about bells, conchs, thunder, whatever, because the only Shabd you will want to hear is the one that gets you outa here - through what yogis called Brahmarandhra passage & Fakir, Sat Lok – and that arises entirely spontaneously. No effort required!

OK, Babaji-G, so that leaves me with Simran/ Japa? Ah, Hoppin’ now you’re talking useful stuff. Even Ramana said as much! Mantrayama, like pranayama, very useful as an early aid to concentration. But remember, mantrayama only takes you as far as the yogis Brahmarandhra/Fakir’s BhanwarGupha. Then mantra – you’ll see – naturally falls away and, from there on in, there is No mantra, No practice, No path, No Guru, No Master. So be ready for that!

3. Anyone within the Sangat who refers to Simran of the 5 names as names of the presiding Gods of the five regions is talking … I got it, Babaji-G … ‘Rubbish’.

Good grief, Babaji-G, I thought the 5 names were sacred! Come on Hoppin’, not at all! Over the centuries there’s been a whole loada dumbing-down just for the likes of you. Our publications dept specialises in dumbing-down! So listen on. What were originally ancient matrika sounds/bija-mantras have been cobbled together & presented to the masses as names of Gods. But, just think about it. How can they be names of Gods? What Gods? In what regions? In fact, are they ‘names’ at all? Oh, Babaji-G, you’re confusing me now.

Good. That’s what I like to hear. Let’s continue. But, I’m not going to do all the work for you. You are going to have to go check this out for your self. OK.

Right, wee Seeker, it’s written in ancient Vedas & Upanishads that primary matrika sounds arise out-of bija ‘O’, signifier of the One … that’s my ‘new’ ONE! These primary sounds, bound to nada bindu, form bija mantras, what I’ll call matrika units. Each of these, guess, has a specific power in a specific sound form. Got it? So, what you’re saying Babaji-G, is that it’s the matrika unit which is significant? Correct. And examples of these? Na, ka, ra, ong, j/yang, rang, ang, hang etc. And, what do you know, matrika sound/letter – ka – is singularly identified with kundali aka shabdabrahman. And, guess, matrika unit – hang – signifies fully aroused Ka in Ajna centre … where us RS-ers taught to focus. You keeping up with me?

Wow, this is all news to me, Babaji-G! But what has it got to do with our Simran of the 5 names?

Ah, listen on seeker, you’ve a way to go! Essentially, since mantra is experienced as falling-away (it gets left behind) at Brahmarandhra / BhanwarG of the Fakir, we can forget the fifth name in this context. OK. So-called True Shabd/Nam refers solely to that spontaneous end-sound witnessed by the One – my ‘new’ One – Self , Ramana’s I-Am – experienced directly prior to liberation; to Ramana’s I-I. OK. You keeping up? So, that leaves us with just the first 4 names of Simran?

And these, Babaji-G, relate to whatever goes on before mantra falls-away, is that so? Correct. They relate to whatever goes on still well within the orbit of mind. That is well within this context of duality.

So, Babaji-G, if mantra relates to whatever goes on within the orbit of mind, then what relevance have the 4 names? As ‘names’? Absolutely no relevance at all. They are meaningless. However, I’ll give you a clue. Just take a look at this. Do you see how your simran/japa of the 4 names is simply a ‘garland’ of matrika units where Jot is a common reference/title accorded to the inner flame, say no more, we all know what that signifies!

Jot! Na-ran(g)-j/yan(g)-on(g)-ka(r)-ra(h)-an(g)-ka(r)-so-hang.

Wow, Babaji-G, my Sanskrit is raw, but this looks just like an invocation to Kundali aka Shabdabrahman aka Ka.

Halleluja! Now we’re cooking on gas! You see it’s encrypted into your ‘garland’ of matrika units, it’s the key to your inner purification – bhuttashruddi – and it’s a totally natural cleansing … what Swami Ji, Fakir describe as bathing in Mansarovar … which must take place prior to your effortless Self Realisation. And, Grasshoppin-seeker, do you not think that your wee mantra is telling you precisely what that involves!

Oh, Babaji-G, you’re having me on. All this is just another of your big jokes, isn’t it?

May be, Grasshoppin-Seeker. But that’s for me to know & you to find out. Now I’m off. Another day, another dollar. Radha Soami!

[Osho Robbins]

TonyM: you wrote
We don’t have anything written down from RSSB about 2.0
If you lean towards the dualistic, effort-is-required stream of thought, then you notice that and emphasise that.
My response:
You are absolutely correct. We interpret in our own way and we focus on what we choose to focus on – hence we have our own versions of what is said.

Having said that – it is clear that there is a DISTINCT and CLEAR shift in the teachings – that simply cannot be denied.

Charan Singh and previous RSSB masters have never made such radical statements as the current master.

Charan Singh did make it 100% clear that he had no spiritual progress and just to leave no doubt – printed the original handwritten notes from his personal diary to make it clear that he did not know what to do when given the successorship.

How satsangis deal with this I have no idea. The ones I have spoken to simply go into denial and say it was just his humility. Which of course is nonsense – because this was his private diary entry – showing his thought process.

Regarding the point of meditation – sant mat 2.0 or 3.0 makes it clear that meditation is simply to tire the mind – and that you cannot arrive at the destination through effort. In fact effort is the barrier.

I am not saying that RSSB tells you NOT to meditate – they clearly tell you to meditate – but the meaning has changed. It is no longer about leaving the body and getting to Sach Khand.

[Osho Robbins]

Dearest EVIL BUSTER

I suggest you WAKE UP PAL and smell the coffee.

You have obviously not listened to any of your master’s satsangs recently.

If all you have listened to is satsangs from his ‘preachers’ then I agree my statements will appear to be lies – because most of the speakers have no idea what is going on themselves – it’s the blind leading the blind.

I have no vested interest is showing sant mat in the ‘wrong light’ or in any light for that matter. I am simply making an observation from what I have heard personally.

By the way I am initiated into RSSB and I even used to be a speaker for RSSB. My father was one of the EARLIEST RSSB followers in the UK – initiated back in 1962 – when there were not even live satsangs – just tapes of Charan Singh.

Gurinder has made it 100% clear on MANY occasions that no master is going to come at death – because there is only ONE.

You need to pay more attention to what your master says.

He has also made is 100% clear that there are NO REGIONS. This was on the public mike in response to ME PERSONALLY – so obviously it’s not hearsay. He said that the regions are just ‘a way of explaining and not to be taken literally – they are just levels of consciousness’

Evil Buster:
Do you REALLY think that SACH KHAND is a PLACE? I mean EXISTING within TIME and SPACE?
A place where a BEING known as SAT PURUSH resides and welcomes the souls who have done their meditation and obeyed the guru.

Obviously I won’t qualify to be let in – probably one of BabaJi’s sevadars will be on duty just outside the gates to stop me specifically –especially as they all know what I look like now and also being a FAT JOKER probably doesn’t help either. But – Oh well – you can’t win em all.

However, why have you jeopardized your own chances by slandering me? Don’t you know that in sant mat – it is a sin? You have to take on my karmas now – and they’re REALLY HEAVY man – because – well I’m a fat joker remember.

According to sant mat – if you criticize someone – you take on their karmas. Hey – you know what – I feel so LIGHT already.

Maybe I’ll make another video – and you can call me more names – this is FUN!

[Dogribb]

Charan wrote he had not progressed any ? In a diary? I've never heard this once.Is this something privy to Indian Satsangi's and us western blokesare left out in the cold ?

[Mike Williams]

To OSHO,
We have two Rajinder moles on the club
right now. Just ignore them.
Your video was great OSHO.

To Dogribb, The quotes you are looking
for are in my book, but I don't have time
to dig them out for you. Beas actually published Charan saying he wasn't what the sangat thought he was and his distress
at being the new master. In my book, I
also quote Sawan telling Chachaji, Swami Ji's brother, he was powerless and inept.
http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

To seeker 2011, nice post.

[EVILBUSTER]

@ osho robbins

can u clarify thes statement and can u give me some proof as to where u heard these points:

1]Gurinder has made it 100% clear on MANY occasions that no master is going to come at death – because there is only ONE.

2]He has also made is 100% clear that there are NO REGIONS

3]He said that the regions are just ‘a way of explaining and not to be taken literally – they are just levels of consciousness’

[EVILBUSTER]

@ OSHO ROBBINS

I CAN TELL EVERYBODY IN THIS FORUM WITH 101% CONVICTION THAT OSHO ROBBINS IS INSPIRED BY FAQIR CHAND AND ALL OF THE CLAIMS MADE BY THIS NOT SO INNOCENT PERSON HAVE BEEN TAKEN FROM FAKIR CHAND SECRET HISTORY OF RSSB WHICH ITSELF IS JOKE AND A BLUNT LIE

ALL THE POINTS IN FC SECRET HISTORY OF BEAS ARE WRONG AND HAVE NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE AND FC WROTE THIS BLOG TO INCREASE HIS FOLLOWERS
WHIC DID NOT HAPPEN

SO ROBBINS I THINK U SHULD DO A PHD IN FAKIR CHAND PHILOSOPHY AND ALSO BCOME HIS SUCCESOR

[Osho Robbins]

evilbuster wrote:

first of all - can you explain what you mean by the phrase 'not so innocent'? The implication is that I am guilty of something.

We are simply exchanging ideas and opinions here.There is no question of innocence or guilt about anything. I am not on trial here.

I am not even writing anything against RSSB - I am simply making an observation about the teachings. The whole notion
of 'not so innocent' is all created in your head. Nothing I have written or stated in the videos is even a threat to RSSB or anyone else. You appear to be adding lots of your own 'values' to my statements.

It starts with your name. EVIL BUSTER. There is no EVIL to bust. You are assuming the evil. Just because you have not listened closely to your master - you are shocked when I make certain statements. What will happen when you hear your own guru making these statements? Will you
call him evil too?

The videos I uploaded were not based on Faqir Chand - but on actual and personal first hand statements made by the current
RSSB master.

I will tell you exactly where I heard those statements
(1) In the UK - someone (I know the person - but there is no need to names any names here as it does not make any difference
to the validility of the statement) asked BabaJi this question in punjabi:

Please don't break our hearts by saying that you are not coming at the time of death.

BabaJi: Try to understand what I am saying. There is only ONE, so who can come at death and who will he come to take? Once we reach
that level of consciousness - there is no question of anyone coming to get us to take us anywhere. This question of the master coming at the time of death only arises while we are in duality.

Now it's time to THINK. If the teachings are that the master DOES come at the time of death - all Baba had to say was - "You are mistaken - I will come at death and save you - so relax - I always save my initiates - we have a verbal contract". Now WHY didn't he say that? because it is not what he is teaching.

(2) and (3) - these answers I have heard MANY TIMES. I personally asked BabaJi this question - as stated in the videos I have uploaded.

I said to him "My God is here" and he replied that "my God is also here" I explained that sant mat books state that Sat Purush resides in Sach Khand.

His response to this was "burn the books." He then said that the regions are just a way of explaining and not to be taken literally. He said they are levels of consciousness. He then agreed that God is indeed HERE - and that you have to REALIZE him.

regarding your earlier comments:
you wrote:
"This guy wants to run his shop by targetting RS/SM bcoz this quys earns money by running a training program known as www.TransformationDay.com this guy is not spiritual person but a hardcore commercial consuler who charges high fees for his sessions so a guy like this speaking about rs/sm does not command respect and acceptance to wat he is preaching"

my response:

yes - I am launching a programme called Transformation Day - but why and how is that a problem for you? How does that make me a 'non-spiritual' person (whatever that means). And I am not targetting RSSB or sant mat followers.

So a hardcore commercial consuler (what is that?) who charges high fees for his sessions commands no respect?

Hmm... interesting

What are these high fees I charge? 150 USD for a full day of 16 hours? hardly what you would call extortionate high fees.

well lets examine the facts here. Gurinder is about as hardcore commercial business person as you can get. In february 2010 his
sons were instantly worth around $55 million each because of his own interests in Religare. He himself made $587,000.

Now that is what you might just call high fees.

Shares were just given (allocated) to his sons at 23c each. They became worth $395 each as soon as the company was taken public. so, $34000 became $55 million.

Do you have a problem with your guru making this kind on money?

If not - then why do you have a problem with me running a seminar about transformation?

You need to apply your judgmental viewpoint to your own guru if you have any credibility.

And your guru is meant to be 'spiritual' and not interested in material wealth. Remember the story they quote about Mirabai giving her guru Ravidas a diamond and he just leaves it where she put it?

I guess times have changed.

[tAo]

Buster,
I think you are confused, and also, you are incorrect (wrong) about a number of things. You have made incorrect assumptions, statements and judgements about myself and other commenters. It makes you look rather foolish.

So, for your information...

(a) Fakir Chand did NOT write Radhasoami Beas Secret History.

(b) Fakir Chand did NOT write this or any blog.

(c) I am an initiate. In fact, I was initiated by Charan Singh more than 30 years ago. I met with Charan Singh personally on several occasions, and I spent considerable time at the Dera, and I am boith knowledgeable and experienced and very well acquainted with Sant Mat as well as the Radha Soami Satsang Beas and its past masters.

[EVILBUSTER]

@ OSHO ROBBINS

I CAN ASSURE U THAT SITTING IN INDIA I HAVE HEARD MORE SATSANGS THAN COMBINED STRENGHT OF ALL PEOPLE PRESENT IN THIS FORUM INCLUDING U

I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT ITS YOUR MIND AND JUDEGEMENT WHICH WANTS U TO QUESTION THE TEACHINGS OF THE MASTER AND CRITICISE THE MASTER THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE TEACHING AND THEY R ABSOULUTELY IN LINE ITS YOUR MIND WHICH IS CORRUPT

ITS A ENGLISH PROVERB IM SURE U R AWARE OF IT " EMPTY VESSELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE"

U DONT WANT TO FOLLOW THE PATH WHICH IS STRICT AND DOES NOT ALLOW INDULGENCE U WANT TO FOLLOW OSHO WHO I KNOW WAS ONE THE MOST CONTERVESIAL GUY OF HIS TIME

THEREFORE U R NOT IN A POSITION TO POINT FINGER AT SM/RSSB

IM NOT AGAINST OSHO BUT I TREAT HIM AS A ORDINARY GENTLEMAN

ASFAR AS ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS CONCERNED IM A DIRTY MORTAL IS NOT EVEN THE DUST OF HIS FEET BUT AS U WERE SAYING THAT HIS SONS MADE
$55 million I WOULD SAY WAT IS WRONG IN THAT ITS THEIR FAMILY BUISNESS AND THEY ARE EARNING THERE OWN BREAD AND BUTTER AND ASKING ANYTHING FROM ANYBODY

PEOPLE CAN U CAN ONLY CRITICISE THIS ONLY SHOWS YOUR SPIRTUAL ELIVATION WHICH IS ZERO

[Mungos]

Hi Osho dear Sir. I liked your videos cause i don't attend any local so called satsangs. I developed this kind of philosophy with meditation and like the new direct way.
And EVIL BUSTER and the likes!!! Baba Ji or any other master does not need your defending. You are only defending your shaken faith. What is wrong with you people do you really think that Master would go on Brian, Osho, Tao, Tara and great Mike Williams like you go??! I was told from books and Masters and meditation directly that Sant Mat is liberation not a religion and sectism and the minute someone gets a glimps of liberation you go nuts and force on them. Show your love and positive will and the black force in you will have no place to stay. And yes BIG HAIL to Tara, Brian, Tao, Mike Williams and also to Baba Ji. Peace

[Dogribb]

I for one (see what I did there)?..... need to know what the 5 levels of consciousness are...I haven't got the patch for 3.0 yeti yeti

[Mungos]

To EVIL BUSTER

Is Osho your deciple, are Brian and others your deciples. You are taking Baba Jis job now man.You are preaching of pointing finger and than you immediately judge by telling of zero spirituality. Take your time and re read your messages analise your self cause you are full of anger and judgement. Come on man stop beating your self you are bleeding be happy man if you love your Master so much than show to him that you can be polite happy and non judgemental, come on try.

[EVILBUSTER]

@ TAO

I AM NOT ASKING FOR YOUR OPINION SO DONT POINT FINGERS AT ME

SECONDLY OK SECRET HISTORY WAS WRITTEN BY MIKE WILLIAMS AND NOT FAKIR CHAND BUT HOW DOES IT MAKE A DIFFRENCE

THIRDLY U SAID UR KNOWLEGABLE AND EXPREINCED WAT A JOKE OF THIS CENTURY YOUR LANGUAGE AND WORDS SEEM TO BE OF A INEXPRECIENCED AND ILLITRATE BAFOON

IF U HAD EVEN LITTLE KNOWLEGE ABOUT SM/RSSB U WULD HAVE KEPT YOUR TRAP SHUT AND NOT WASTED TIME CRITICISING RSSB

THIS OSHO ROBBINS AND ALL THE CRITICAL PUBLIC IN THIS FORUM WANTS TO ENJOY LIFE,DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO AND THEY HATE RSSB BCOZ IT IS STRICT AND PREVENTS U FROM INDULGENCE AND THIS HAS MADE U PEOPLE HATE RSSB

U HATE IT ,CRITICISE IT FIND FAULTS OR DEFEND YUR FAILED POINT TRUTH WILL BE TRUTH AND THAT CANNOT BE CHANGED

ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS THE CREATOR AND GOD AND WE DIRTY MORTALS CAN ONLY FIND FAULTS IN GOD BCOZ WE R DIRTY AND HE IS PURE

[Osho Robbins]

Dearest EVIL BUSTER,
you need to change your name to EVIL PROPOGATOR. Why? Because you are definately not following the teachings of your own master. He doesn't teach you to call people names - especially as you have no idea what you are talking about.

You seem bitter that a person can enjoy their life. Your own master is enjoying his life and he tells people to lighten up. I have personally seen him come into a hall full of sevadars and say "why all the long faces?"

So enjoying your life is not against any of your masters teachings.

By the way - I have simply explained in the videos how I see that the teachings are no longer the same as the RSSB teachings from the eighties and earlier. I have not condemned them. In fact I think they're moving into a much more relaxed direction. I think it's cool and I am enjoying the show.

You on the other hand seem to be bitter and upset.
You wrote:

I CAN ASSURE U THAT SITTING IN INDIA I HAVE HEARD MORE SATSANGS THAN COMBINED STRENGHT OF ALL PEOPLE PRESENT IN THIS FORUM INCLUDING U

Well well well. What do you want? a medal? You may have heard them - but have you really LISTENED?

And you seem mighty PROUD of your accomplishment. And I thought sant mat was about eliminating the EGO. SO whatever you're doing it's not working.

You say empty vessels make a lot of noise. Well I am quite happy to be called an empty vessel - in fact I can take it as a compliment.

But your own guru makes a lot of noise too, right? So would you call him an empty vessel too?

For your information OSHO only claimed to be an ordinary person. He claimed no POWERS or ALL-KNOWINGNESS like sant mat teaches.

Enlightenment (whatever that is) is an ordinary state. It is seeking to be extraordinary that keeps you trapped in seeking.

WHO exactly told you that you are a dirty mortal? Certainly your own guru doesn't teach that - he tells people not to put themselves down. You are YOU - just as you are. Neither good nor bad.

It is YOU who brought up the topic of money - because you said that I was running a seminar called Transformation Day and making lots of money. You said it made me unspiritual.

I am just saying - apply the same criteria to your own guru - or don't make such silly statements.

What makes you think I have any 'spiritual elevation'? I have never claimed any. I am happy to be just me - just as I am. I don't even know what the heck this 'spiritual elevation' is!

[Georgie Peorgie]

the videos are clear, but all i see is some chap saying what his interpretation of v1 and v2 says. where is the actual proof or source(s) that state this is actually what v1 or v2 say?

As in all of these religions and traditions, it comes down to interpretation, and all that we can tell from these videos is one persons interpretation of what v1 and v2 are respectively saying.

as for the poster who is lower than dust and all that, you sound like a sincere individual but my goodness why would anyone write themselves off like that?

this is for me the most worrying thing about cults.

[tAo]

The "BUSTER" who claims to be "EVIL" says:

"@ TAO I AM NOT ASKING FOR YOUR OPINION SO DONT POINT FINGERS AT ME"

-- unfortunately Buster, you pointed your "evil" finger at me first... when you mentioned my name and you insulted me and made incorrect assertions and judgements about me. if you come to a blog and start attacking me and other people (as you have done), then people may likely respond by posting their opinions about you and pointing out your mistakes. if you start attacking other people here by name (as you have done), then its entirely your own fault. so don't be surprised if other people form negative opinions about you. i kind of have to wonder why Brian would even tolerate an angry hypocritical troll like you, who post shouting comments (using all caps)... except for the fact that crazed and disturbed cult fanatics like you, do a much better job of making the RSSB cult look bad, than any critics ever could. *grin*

"SECONDLY OK SECRET HISTORY WAS WRITTEN BY MIKE WILLIAMS AND NOT FAKIR CHAND BUT HOW DOES IT MAKE A DIFFRENCE"

-- it makes a difference simply because your assertion was wrong. and that shows that you are confused and that your statements about others are inaccurate.

"THIRDLY U SAID UR KNOWLEGABLE AND EXPREINCED WAT A JOKE OF THIS CENTURY YOUR LANGUAGE AND WORDS SEEM TO BE OF A INEXPRECIENCED AND ILLITRATE BAFOON"

-- well, coming from a hypocritical fanatic like you, someone who can neither spell correctly nor write proper english, it seems that you are the one who is the "JOKE" and the "ILLITERATE BAFOON".

"IF U HAD EVEN LITTLE KNOWLEGE ABOUT SM/RSSB U WULD HAVE KEPT YOUR TRAP SHUT AND NOT WASTED TIME CRITICISING RSSB"

-- on the contrary, my knowledge and experience is exactly why i have the right and the priviledge of criticising.

"THIS OSHO ROBBINS AND ALL THE CRITICAL PUBLIC IN THIS FORUM WANTS TO ENJOY LIFE,DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO AND THEY HATE RSSB BCOZ IT IS STRICT AND PREVENTS U FROM INDULGENCE AND THIS HAS MADE U PEOPLE HATE RSSB'

-- I can't really speak for others, but I don't "HATE RSSB" at all... and I don't think anyone else at this blog hates RSSB either. myself, I have no reason to hate. at this point, I couldn't care less about the RS cult. it is not important to me. however, that doesn't mean that I don't have opinions about RS, and that I don't have the right to express my opinions, regardless of the fact that you tell people here to shut up. and it seems that you are the one who hates anyone who has a critical opinion about the RSSB cult and its bogus guru.

"ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS THE CREATOR AND GOD AND WE DIRTY MORTALS CAN ONLY FIND FAULTS IN GOD BCOZ WE R DIRTY AND HE IS PURE"

-- all you are really saying here, is that you are "DIRTY", that you have a "DIRTY" mind. you don't speak for other people. and you "BABAJI" is no "CREATOR" or "GOD" of anything. he is merely an ordinary and imperfect (and corrupt) human being. it is sad that people like you have so little self-esteem and self-worth, that you will grovel and worship at the feet of elitist cult guru frauds like the ridiculous character that you worship. its really rather pathetic. i have to feel sorry for people like you Buster.

[Osho Robbins]

Georgie Peorgie,
you are correct - this is my interpretation of the RSSB upgraded teachings.

Different people may interpret the changes in a different way. What is clear however is that there are differences emerging and the traditional teachings are being replaced.

Many people may be slow in accepting the changes because it is easier to go into denial.

The question is WHY are the teachings changing?

Did Sat Purush have a meeting with the lords of the lower regions and was he out-voted?

No - the reason they are changing is because a person known as Gurinder became the new guru.

And just like me or anyone else - HE ALSO has HIS own interpretation of what Sant mat is really about.

He decided after observation (and I would agree with this) that the teachings as given up until now just keep the disciples stuck in duality.

Why? because they seek experiences. And because they seek - they find. So now they have hope because they had a glimpse of light or the radiant form. They noe believe they are on the right path - and continue all their life.

They do not realize that they are creating their own experiences.

No phenomena is ever REAL because it is all part of TIME AND SPACE which is MAYA or ILLUSION.

Only that is REAL which is beyond time and space. In sant mat - that is called SHABD or NAAM.

However - seeking to experience it - is not IT. The real meaning of SHABD or NAAM is to REALIZE the state of NON-PHENOMENA and to recognize it as the ONLY REALITY. This is called ENLIGHTENMENT.

Gurinder has an understanding of this - so he has incorporated this into the old duality teachings - without coming clean and stating the truth.

What truth? The truth which is hard for everone to admit - and which even his closest followers will have trouble in accepting. Namely that all the previous masters were giving out duality teachings. Hence none of them were enlightened.

Now this is going to sound very egotistical if he states his truth. So he has found a halfway house.

He has incorporated the new into the old - and confused the f**k out of everyone. When they are confused - he states that this is precisely his purpose.

Why because only when you are confused are you able to let go of your conviction in the old teachings.

Then at some point he can officially release the new upgraded software and he will be accepted because the sangat will be ready to accept anything.

So right now the software upgrade is in the process of being uploaded - hence the confusion.

Well - that's my version of the story - and I'm sticking to it.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Georgie,

There have been many people here
confirming what OSHO and Brian have said.
You missed the posts.

Both OSHO and Brian nailed it. Its been coming out for several years. This isn't
a recent development.

[Osho Robbins]

evil buster,
I agree with TAO - if you are on here - posting YOUR opinions - then others are going to post THEIRS. If you can't take the heat - then don't dish it out.

You point fingers at others and they will point fingers back. Now you make commandments (like DON'T POINT FINGERS AT ME!). Are you nuts? Of course others will point fingers at you - you asked for it.

By the way - so did I. By posting those videos I am putting myself in the firing line. People like EVIL BUSTER always come forward and criticise. I invited you by posting the video. I have never asked you to stop calling me names.

I mean your first greeting to me was this:

U BLOODY FAT JOKER SPEAKING AND PREACHING ALL LIES

Hardly the way your master teaches you to greet people. I mean a simple "Radha Soami Osho Robbins - I disagree with your ideas" would have sufficed.

Not that I mind. I actually enjoy your comments - they make life interesting. FAT - well yes I may be a little on the fat side - which is cool because I choose that. JOKER - well that's a nice compliment - thank you - and I will try to be more light hearted and joke some more.

As for LIES - well that is certain to be the case because my truth WILL ALWAYS appear to be lies to SOMEONE. Everyone will interpret in their own ways.

For example there is nothing threatening in the three videos I uploaded. I did not CONDEMN anyone - or COMPLAIN. Or call anyone BAD (or even GOOD for that matter). I merely pointed out MY OBSERVATIONS.

Which as a human being I am perfectly entitled to do. And you are perfectly entitled to AGREE or DISAGREE.

If you want to get UPSET or ANGRY that is also your perogative.

And if you are wise - you will be open to the possibility that maybe - just MAYBE - you might not be RIGHT in your interpretations.

Then there is no reason to be angry - you will let everyone have their opinions - and you will ENJOY THE SHOW.

And you will realize that you are not an EVIL BUSTER because there is no evil to bust. The EVIL is also your interpretation. It is your own creation.

We are all simply playing with ideas here - Brian has simply created a place for people to discuss their opinions and have an open discussion without anyone having ultimate authority.

You are used to the idea that your BABAJI is the ultimate authority and anyone who questions him is EVIL.

Let me tell you of an ACTUAL incident. I was speaking with gurinder on the mic - and it got into a discussion (as I call it). However others might call it an ARGUMENT. It is all INTERPRETATION.

Anyway - someone from the audience shouted out "switch off his mic". Gurinder responded by saying "If you want to switch off his mic - then switch off mine too"

"we are having a discussion - and you might learn something from it. If I want him to sit down - I can do this myself" he added.

Which I think was pretty cool.

[Mike Williams]

Below old quote from Brian I like. -----

Krishnamurti pointed people in a Zen way towards living a life of freedom, free from the mental conditioning continually imposed on us by Societal leaders. The Institutional Spiritual Leaders are to be specially guarded against because we are conditioned to become trusting of them.

His message was: See and understand everything by yourself. Do not succumb to external pressures and enticements. Be Free.

He really taught nothing. Simply said, Live your own life sensitive of everything around you. Our mental freedom does not come from books or talks or other people, it comes when we connect with the core of our own Self.

To allow that inner connection so we can truly be ourselves in our ordinary life is for me the greatest practice.

A Spiritual Institution, which claims to guide its followers toward the Ultimate Truth, surely must show itself as honest and truthful and having the highest standards of ethics and morality.

[Dogribb]

I CAN ASSURE U THAT SITTING IN INDIA I HAVE HEARD MORE SATSANGS THAN COMBINED STRENGHT OF ALL PEOPLE PRESENT IN THIS FORUM INCLUDING U

How unfortunate....get a hobby,go for a walk or do the dishes....kidding...lol

[EVILBUSTER]

@ OSHO ROBBINS

IF SOME OF MY WORDS OR LANGUAGE HAS HURTED U SO
I WOULD LIKE TO APPOLIGISE TO U WITH FOLDED HANDS _/\_

SECONDLY I WANT TO SAY THAT ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS MY FATHER AND IF SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING BAD FOR MY FATHER I GET BLOODBOILING ANGRY

THIRDLY I HAVE SEVERAL POINTS WHICH R REAL TO POINT FINGER AT OSHO YOUR GURU BUT MY GURU HAS TAUGHT ME NOT CRITICISE ANYONE SO ILL NOT DO THAT

LASTLY IT IS YOUR MISFORTUNE THAT U TRIED TO BE CLEVER AND HAD AN ARGUMENT WITH THE ALMIGHTY TRY DOING THE SAME WITH ANY MORTAL ON THE STREET HE WILL BASH THE DAYLITE OUT OF U

[EVILBUSTER]

@ MIKE WILLIAM

U R THE ANOTHER ROTTEN EGG OF THIS FORUM I KNOW U HAVE WRITTEN THE DUD SECRET HISTORY OF RSSB WHICH IS CONSIDERED A PEICE OF COMIC HERE IN INDIA

I THINK MUST BE A JOKER TO WRITE COMICS

[George]

actually evilbuster sounds more evil than anyone else.

you ppl are actually stuffed in the head. you preach love and you full of hate and retribution. and the irony is that the irony is completely lost on you.

let us for argument sake accept that baby ji is indeed the lord god almighty hisself(that every other religion is wrong and that RS happens to be the only true path) and that baba ji is the true lord; any teaching that proclaims love to be its central tenent and yet whose disciples appear to be full of vengefullness and intolerance - is precisely the opposite - and in fact it says more about that teaching that anyone else possibly could.

Bottomline, just because you believe someone is god almightly does mean that said person is god almighty, and more importantly, other certainly do not need to be forced or cajoled into accepting your own personal belief.

It is this sort of closed-minded religious intolerance, which has led to virtually all the wars and conflicts since the beginning of time, and invariably its adherents are all fighting over their particular version of the truth.

[Osho Robbins]

Dear evil buster,

I am going to respond to each comment:

IF SOME OF MY WORDS OR LANGUAGE HAS HURTED U SO
I WOULD LIKE TO APPOLIGISE TO U WITH FOLDED HANDS _/\_

OK - first of all - I have made it as clear as I can that I am NOT offended or hurt by anything you have said. Hence no apology is due. Besides I really don't know what to do with apologies. They can't be eaten, or even sold on ebay.

Second thing is this. You are not apologising. A real apology is not words - it is something that comes from your heart and it brings tears to your eyes. It touches both apologizer and apologizee. It is a rare occurence. It comes from real remorse. And it changes you at the core - because it comes from a transfromation of your being.

Surface apologies are simply lies - a social etiquette - like when you tell a child to behave - it's not real.

You are only apologizing because it is the custom in RSSB to not use harse words. However, after apologizing to me - you then call Mike WIlliams a Joker and a rotten egg - in your very next posting.

SECONDLY I WANT TO SAY THAT ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS MY FATHER AND IF SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING BAD FOR MY FATHER I GET BLOODBOILING ANGRY

Thank you for your honesty. However, can you see it's not a very powerful way to live your life? If you let other people have that much power over you - you are not going to be very happy. I suggest you attend my intense training Transformation Day - only $150 and a bargain. No seva to perform. No satsangs to attend. In a single day I will re-wire your brain.

THIRDLY I HAVE SEVERAL POINTS WHICH R REAL TO POINT FINGER AT OSHO YOUR GURU BUT MY GURU HAS TAUGHT ME NOT CRITICISE ANYONE SO ILL NOT DO THAT

You are most welcome to point the finger at OSHO. By the way - he's not my guru - as I don't have one. I have had many gurus in the past - I started collected them at age 18 when I went to university.

Please feel free to state your points about OSHO. I would be most interested - but remember I am not here to defend anyone - and includes OSHO and even myself. Playfully you may make comments and playfully I will answer.

If you guru has taught you not to criticise anyone - then why are you doing it? Personally in my philosophy it's perfectly okay to criticise anyone. How else can you examine and discuss issues?

Nothing gets resolved if you don't voice your opinions. And you have to get beyond this idea that YOU ARE RIGHT! Because all that we all do is see the world through our own filters and then we think we are dealing with the real world. We are not - we are dealiong with our own filters - which are BELIEFS - and they are not even true!

LASTLY IT IS YOUR MISFORTUNE THAT U TRIED TO BE CLEVER AND HAD AN ARGUMENT WITH THE ALMIGHTY TRY DOING THE SAME WITH ANY MORTAL ON THE STREET HE WILL BASH THE DAYLITE OUT OF U

No - you mis-understand me. I did not TRY to be anything. I was simply discussing a point and BABAJI and I were both having a pretty good time. Well at least I was - and it seemed to me like he was.

It only looked like a argument to those who have a BELIEF that it is WRONG to have a discussion with Babaji. It appears to them that I am questioning his AUTHORITY and am not respecting him.

However - you have to realize that Babji himself likes and enjoys the process of discussion. For example he has said to me many times "Reason with me" meaning that he is asking me to respond to his reply.

RSSB always make these announcements before question sessions. (1) Only ask one question. (2) make it short (3) do not get into a dialogue (4) only ask about spiritual issues.

This is all nonsense. Why because they are saying NO REAL QUESTIONS. Any real question HAS TO end up in a dialogue. The GITA is a great dialogue between Krishna and Arjuna.

The Ashtavakra Smita is a great dialogue between Ashtavakra and Janak.

Dialogue is necessary.

I don't know which world you live in - but in any civilised society - it is not usually the custom to have a physical fight with anyone who disagrees with you.

We disagree all the time on this forum. I don't see anyone tryng to bash the daylights out of anyone. And it's usually only those who are totally brainwashed into RSSB who get offended and make offensive remarks.

[Prem slagar]

Hi Osho,

I think you are really sexy

[Prem slagar]

Dear Osho Robbins,

I know for a fact that you are a fat bastard but ill tell you what, you are the most fucking amazing fat bastard that I and Gazzi singh rularde have ever met.

The proof of your shear amazingness is in the tasting and experiencing of your pudding. You can listen to you all day long babbling like a brook - you aint going to get fucking nowhere, I know because I have done both!

You are gods gift, and I take great joy in watching the unworthy miss your greatness.

You are fucking amazing.

Prem slagar

[EVILBUSTER]

[Note from Blogger Brian: ordinarily I wouldn't publish an ALL CAPS comment that is filled with insulting meaningless crap. But as another commenter observed recently, sometimes it's good to show what religion does to people -- how they become hateful rather than loving, critical rather than compassionate. So I've been making some exceptions with EVILBUSTER. Read on...]

@ TARA

U DUMB WOMAN FYI KAREENA KAPOOR HAS BEEN VOTED THE SEXIEST VEGITARAIN FOR THE YEAR 2010 BY PETA SO GET YUR FACTS RIGHT AND IM SURE PANKAJ KAPOOR WILL NOT ENTERTAIN A WOMAN LIKE U IF HE HEARS U SPEAKING TRASH

SECONDLY IM A JAT AND IF U R AN INDIAN U KNOW WHO WE R AND WAT WE CAN DO

THIRDLY U R A GOOD FOR NOTHING IF U WANT TO CURSE SOMEONE BE IT YUR PARENTS FOR PRODUCING A RETARD

I THINK U LIKE CHICKEN AND U HAVE IT THATS Y YUR MIND IS CORRUPTED AND UR IMPURE AND I DONT SPEAK TO IMPURE MORTALS U DESERVE THIS FILTH OF THIS WORLD

[EVILBUSTER]

@ ALL THE CRITICS

THIS IS MY LAST COMMENT ON THIS BLOG BEFORE DEPARTING I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THE FOLLOWING POINTS:

1] I AM NOT A FANATIC AND I AM JUST TELLING WATS THE TRUTH ITS YOUR WISH TO MAKE ANY CONCLUSIONS OUT OF IT

2] IT IS THE MORTALS LIKE U WHO R CRITISCING AND I AM JUST TELLING U THE TRUTH HUZUR MAHARAJI USED TO SAY KI SATSANG WOH NAHI HAI KI JAH PE DOOSRO KI NEENDA CHUGLI HO SATSANG WO HAI JAHA US NAM KI BADAI HOTI HAI

U PEOPLE HAVE CERTIFIED THAT THIS PLACE BELONGS TO THE ORDINARY MORTALS WHO TALK DIRTY,CRITCISE,SPEAK BAD WORDS,ABUSE ETC AND WHERE THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THE LORD HERETHEREFORE I DONT WANT TO STAY INA NEGATIVE PLACE LIKE THIS AND SPOIL MY KARMA

AT LAST I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT IF U HAD SOME SPRITUAL ELIVATION OR EVEN ORDINARY GOOD HUMAN QUALITIES U WOULD NOT HAVE WASTED YOUR PRECIOUS TIME OVER HERE

NOTHING MORE TO SAY TO SUCH HARD HEARTED AND EVIL PEOPLE

[Marina]

Ah Evilbuster, I'm gonna miss you :)))

you have really shown me how I need to look at my beliefs and not hold them too tightly....ouch ouch ouch

Marina ;)

[George]

what i cant understand about you ppl tho is what is so bad about being critical, of questioning?

I cant understand these folk who go absolutely apeshit just because someone happens to disagree. Thats all, a difference in perspective, what difference does it make to you if someone disagrees with you, even if you will never change your mind, why can they not express theirs?

well and truly beyond me.

[tAo]

Buster says:

"I AM NOT A FANATIC"

-- well then, why do you talk (write) and act like one?

"IT IS THE MORTALS LIKE U"

-- try stepping in front of a fast moving bus, and then you will realize just how mortal you are (or were). [caution: better not to try this] you get the idea.

"U PEOPLE [...] WHO TALK DIRTY,CRITCISE,SPEAK BAD WORDS,ABUSE ETC"

-- well then, you had better go back and re-read your own abuse and dirty bad words. besides, you are the one who claims to be evil.

"AND WHERE THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THE LORD HERETHEREFORE I DONT WANT TO STAY INA NEGATIVE PLACE LIKE THIS AND SPOIL MY KARMA

-- lol! your karma is already spoiled.

"IF U HAD SOME SPRITUAL ELIVATION OR EVEN ORDINARY GOOD HUMAN QUALITIES U WOULD NOT HAVE WASTED YOUR PRECIOUS TIME OVER HERE"

-- well thanks for dropping by and letting us know what wonderful person you've become since coming under the RS/GS cult influence.

"NOTHING MORE TO SAY TO SUCH HARD HEARTED AND EVIL PEOPLE"

-- I'm sorry that you are so miserable. perhaps this little music video will improve your crappy outlook:

Give Love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpVUih5nY9g

[Passerby]

To EvilBuster

You say: "ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS THE CREATOR AND GOD AND WE DIRTY MORTALS CAN ONLY FIND FAULTS IN GOD BCOZ WE R DIRTY AND HE IS PURE"

Babaji is the Creator? And God? Babaji is just a mortal man. He is not the Creator nor God. Your religious fanaticism is as clear as your all caps are obnoxious.

You say: "I CAN ASSURE U THAT SITTING IN INDIA I HAVE HEARD MORE SATSANGS THAN COMBINED STRENGHT OF ALL PEOPLE PRESENT IN THIS FORUM INCLUDING U"

One moment of inner stillness is more valuable & enlightening than a lifetime of outer satsang.

And for all your “SITTING IN INDIA”, ignorance, intolerance, anger, pride, and self-righteous indignation is your bombastic “DIRTY” master.

[Jake]

Dear Mr OSHO and Mr Brian - fascinating blog this. Just fascinating.

Mr Evilbuster, I too am an initiate of Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon Ji. I have been for a number of years now. I understand how you may feel when you think people are criticising your Master and His teachings – it makes you upset and hurt. This is natural. We are, after all in human bodies and this is a natural human reaction.

However, one of the benefits of carrying out your meditation on a daily basis for the full 2.5 hrs sitting is that, in my opinion, it kind of detaches you from worldly opinion. I couldn’t really care if the whole world stood up and said my Master is a charlatan – I know that He is not. My experience on this path has shown me that he is not a charlatan.

I am one of the lucky few who has heard the shabad. Which sound I have heard I am not at liberty to say. Obviously Jake is not my real name – it’s best to keep some anonymity as you yourself think so - Mr ‘Evilbuster’ – lovely name by the way! [No sarcasm intended] So having heard the sound and having first hand experience of my Master knowing highly personal certain things about me that I had not told another living soul, gives me a good foundation that is not easily shaken.

So if anyone, like Mr OSHO (cracking name) is trying to reason with the teachings of my Master, I don’t think that there is any harm in this. Better that he is discussing Sant Mat than any number of other topics that young men seem to be fond of nowadays (boozing, strip clubs, smoking dope etc etc). So at least Mr OSHO is trying to make sense of it all. Is there anything wrong with that? I don’t think so, and I don’t think Master would mind either. Or else, as Mr OSHO himself said, Master would simply have ignored him and told him to sit down whenever Mr OSHO has had opportunity to have discussions with the Master.

Ok, so exactly why do I find this blog fascinating? It is because about a year ago I had the pleasure of sitting in the company of my Master during one of his unofficial visits, and during his discourse he said with words to the effect, (and don’t quote me on this), that the words ‘‘seeing the light’ is just symbolic.’ WOW! That statement blew my mind. I just thought at the time, “did anyone else just hear what I heard?!?” In my post satsang discussions with my near and dear ones no one else mentioned it. I thought that no one else had heard it apart from me, but I’m convinced we all heard it, just that some of us choose to have selective hearing and block out that which we do not understand.

[I need to keep this short or you’ll all die of boredom.] In my humble opinion, I think that Master now trusts us enough and sees that we are far enough advanced to move up a grade in sant mat. Huzur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji spent 40 years trying to persuade a lot of his initiates to sit for the full sitting every day – from the Q & A sessions I’ve heard over the years involving the present Master and the old initiates, it seems that many of them were simply failing to meditate. I’ve honestly lost count of the number of times some ‘bibis’ have stood up and said, ‘daya mer kuro,’ i.e. ‘I can’t meditate so you have to give me your grace and mercy to allow me to meditate.’

Whereas Baba Ji, since he became Master 20 years ago, has been hammering us to make us realise that we have to do our meditation – we have to cut out all of the b*llsh*t excuses and just do it; (from my years of study and numerous degrees later, I’ve noted that teachers/lecturers/professors sometimes adapt their teaching style if the students are not responding initially). Now that a lot of us initiates seem to be doing our full sittings (I sometimes meditate for 4 to 5 hours daily – not an ego thing just a statement), I fully believe that Master is preparing for us to move up a grade. So no, I don’t think that the old teachings are being contradicted in any way. In my opinion, I believe it is just that we have all developed to such an extent that Master trusts that we can start to handle the truth – we are now spiritually mature enough to handle the truth. I for one think that this is the beginning of a new dawn in spirituality, not just in sant mat, but across the whole world, whether you’re on this path or not. Exciting times my beloved friends. Radha Soami.

[Jake]

Dear Mr OSHO and Mr Brian - fascinating blog this. Just fascinating.

Mr Evilbuster, I too am an initiate of Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon Ji. I have been for a number of years now. I understand how you may feel when you think people are criticising your Master and His teachings – it makes you upset and hurt. This is natural. We are, after all in human bodies and this is a natural human reaction.

However, one of the benefits of carrying out your meditation on a daily basis for the full 2.5 hrs sitting is that, in my opinion, it kind of detaches you from worldly opinion. I couldn’t really care if the whole world stood up and said my Master is a charlatan – I know that He is not. My experience on this path has shown me that he is not a charlatan.

I am one of the lucky few who has heard the shabad. Which sound I have heard I am not at liberty to say. Obviously Jake is not my real name – it’s best to keep some anonymity as you yourself think so - Mr ‘Evilbuster’ – lovely name by the way! [No sarcasm intended] So having heard the sound and having first hand experience of my Master knowing highly personal certain things about me that I had not told another living soul, gives me a good foundation that is not easily shaken.

So if anyone, like Mr OSHO (cracking name) is trying to reason with the teachings of my Master, I don’t think that there is any harm in this. Better that he is discussing Sant Mat than any number of other topics that young men seem to be fond of nowadays (boozing, strip clubs, smoking dope etc etc). So at least Mr OSHO is trying to make sense of it all. Is there anything wrong with that? I don’t think so, and I don’t think Master would mind either. Or else, as Mr OSHO himself said, Master would simply have ignored him and told him to sit down whenever Mr OSHO has had opportunity to have discussions with the Master.

Ok, so exactly why do I find this blog fascinating? It is because about a year ago I had the pleasure of sitting in the company of my Master during one of his unofficial visits, and during his discourse he said with words to the effect, (and don’t quote me on this), that the words ‘‘seeing the light’ is just symbolic.’ WOW! That statement blew my mind. I just thought at the time, “did anyone else just hear what I heard?!?” In my post satsang discussions with my near and dear ones no one else mentioned it. I thought that no one else had heard it apart from me, but I’m convinced we all heard it, just that some of us choose to have selective hearing and block out that which we do not understand.

[I need to keep this short or you’ll all die of boredom.] In my humble opinion, I think that Master now trusts us enough and sees that we are far enough advanced to move up a grade in sant mat. Huzur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji spent 40 years trying to persuade a lot of his initiates to sit for the full sitting every day – from the Q & A sessions I’ve heard over the years involving the present Master and the old initiates, it seems that many of them were simply failing to meditate. I’ve honestly lost count of the number of times some ‘bibis’ have stood up and said, ‘daya mer kuro,’ i.e. ‘I can’t meditate so you have to give me your grace and mercy to allow me to meditate.’

Whereas Baba Ji, since he became Master 20 years ago, has been hammering us to make us realise that we have to do our meditation – we have to cut out all of the b*llsh*t excuses and just do it; (from my years of study and numerous degrees later, I’ve noted that teachers/lecturers/professors sometimes adapt their teaching style if the students are not responding initially). Now that a lot of us initiates seem to be doing our full sittings (I sometimes meditate for 4 to 5 hours daily – not an ego thing just a statement), I fully believe that Master is preparing for us to move up a grade. So no, I don’t think that the old teachings are being contradicted in any way. In my opinion, I believe it is just that we have all developed to such an extent that Master trusts that we can start to handle the truth – we are now spiritually mature enough to handle the truth. I for one think that this is the beginning of a new dawn in spirituality, not just in sant mat, but across the whole world, whether you’re on this path or not. Exciting times my beloved friends. Radha Soami.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Jake,
It's OK to be a satsangi here and tell
us your good results. Once again
we appreciate your honesty.

We kind of take all the various experiences
from everybody, both good and bad and throw
them out in the middle for examination.

So, if we can see all the good and bad,
that will give us a clear picture of the
entire scenario.

We get to see all the angles and therefore
come to better judgements.

So, everyone can be friends.

[George]

Seems to me the best way to tell if spirituality, of any sort, is complete crap - is simply to see if there is any money involved.

If there's money involved, its a racket.

If someone intends preaching or lecturing on a topic as totally unverifiable and immaterial as spirituality, then at least do this without seeking power or commercial gain.

I don't know if there is a spiritual aspect to our existence, but if there is it sure as hell resides in the transcendental aspects of our nature such as love, empathy, altruism, kindness - and not in drives for power, money, status, respect, exploitation and manipulation.

Seems to me there are at least two types of charlatans, those that knowingly exploit others and those who are so deluded that they actually believe their own nonsense. The latter is potentially even more dangerous since they tend to be far more believable, since they believe so completely themselves.

The issue of good and evil is also an interesting point. Is there actually evil in the world, and what is evil? The stronger evil is those who knowlingly manipulate others for one's own gain, but it seems the more dangerous evil is of the more subtle kind where ppl believe their own ideologies so fundamentally that they are simply unable to even question them.

[Catherine]

Jake....Delusion. Gurinder lervs you for it.

[Marina]

'Jake',

Thank you for your post.
I love and admire your openness and non defensive attitude.........

Marina

[Mike Williams]

Great post George,

Follow the money.

Oddly enough I don't believe in a God.

But, do believe an evil force and a positive
force exist. I say this after 40 years of
investigating many many groups.

To Marina off another thread. We like
negative feedback on this club. But, Brian
and I know things we don't tell you about
what the Gurus do to try and stop websites
and clubs.

The Guru preaches love, but dishes out
hate off camera. They are superficial,
low class, two bit scam artists.

People are worshiping sociopanths and
don't know it.

They are the lowest form of humanity
on the earth.

Nothing they told people is true.

They are evil incarnate. To worship evil,
one invites evil into themselves.

I would like any one to tell me their
Radhasoami guru is a good person.

Is a guru's family who made a billion dollars off his flock a good person, while
his flock live in poverty ?

Is a Guru who steals land from his
own people a good person ?

Are Gurus who lied about their history
and theology good people ?

You know Faquir Chand called them criminals
who will have to account for their actions.

Yes, Brian has all the opposite qualities.

Qualities that have earned him respect.

[Marina]

Ok Mike,

I do hear what you are saying.
But that is not my experience.

BJ to me is a good person. (Now Mike you did ask) I do understand that you and Brian and a lot of others don't.

I don't know what 'stuff' you mean when you say the Gurus try to stop websites and clubs like this or any other. In fact, I never heard him say anything like that, but then again, I have not a close relationship to him like some of you have. So I am not saying you are lying Mike, or anyone else is.

If I heard BJ say at Dera that we should not go on websites / clubs (like this), believe you me, I would be first up to the mike and asking questions about it.

I don't see the harm in this club and I am sick of hearing myself say that. I do wondor how people think I don't like 'negetive' if there is such a word, feedback.I find it very interesting although, if I am honest sometimes it feels like a pain, when I see how I react to posts or not :))) but all part of the fun and 'learning'. Unbelievably so!

Marina

[dr]

"Jake",

Whatever experiences you have in meditation have nothing to do with your guru. He may be a spirituality advanced person (maybe not) so that he could tell you things about yourself that only you knew, but this doesn't mean that he is responsible for YOUR experiences. It is between you and God only.

Without money, none of these commercial gurus would even have a following, let alone an empire. That is something to bear in mind. Spirituality should be empowering and a mature adult should take responsibility for their own destiny. If someone comes along, disempowers you by claiming to be your channel to life and existence to God and at the same time hoardes property, amasses wealth and does no work, encourages adulation and so on, this person doesn't have your best interests at heart and is trying to overpower you.

Unfortunately, in India it is considered ordinary for seekers to need a guru, when in actuality they just need a teacher who can teach them until they master the subject or experience. By chaining their disciple to themselves, these gurus explicitly condone subservience for eternity and not nirvana or freedom; they promote ignorance. Buddha didn't claim to be a guru, he was just a teacher. That was one of the most beautiful things about the Buddha.

Last but not least, how can any guru live your life for you? Do they experience your total experience, total life, memories etc? Decidedly not.

The goal is not to become one with the guru but to become one with Brahman or God or however you want to term it.

[tAo]

Marina writes:

"I don't know what 'stuff' you mean when you say the Gurus try to stop websites and clubs like this or any other. In fact, I never heard him say anything like that..."

-and-

"If I heard BJ say at Dera that we should not go on websites / clubs (like this), believe you me, I would be first up to the mike and asking questions about it."

Marina,

You are clearly uninformed. In 1996, Gurinder and RSSB issued and published a formal directive that instructed all initiated RS satsangis to NOT discuss Sant Mat or RS etc via the internet, in any form whatsoever. That directive has never been rescinded.

FYI... Here below is the official RSSB internet prohibition directive (issued by Gurinder Singh), which was published as a formal notice to all RS satsangis in the March and May 1996 RSSB Newsletters. It instructs all RS satsangis (initiates) to refrain from using the internet (email, websites, blogs, etc.) to discuss, debate, preach, advertise, or communicate in any way about Sant Mat and/or RS:

The following are excerpts from the RSSB Newsletter. All text below, except for the month and year in brackets, is verbatim and complete:

--------------------------------------------

[RSSB-A Newsletter - MARCH 1996]

Use of E-Mail and other electronic media for Sant Mat purposes.

The following statement was recently received from the Dera:

"Satsangis should not use E-mail or other media such as Internet to conduct satsangs, formal or informal, or to communicate or distribute Sant Mat teachings, Sant Mat addresses and initiation data, or other similar material of confidential nature. In addition, Web-Sites and homepages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat."

Possible exceptions to the policy may be made for projects under the direct supervision of the RSSB-A Board.

--------------------------------------------

[RSSB-A Newsletter - MAY 1996]

Use of Electronic Media for Sant Mat Communications.

As a follow-up to the statement in the March issue regarding the use of E-Mail and the Internet for Sant Mat communications, we have recently received the following letter [from RSSB Dera]:

"With access to electronic media such as the Internet and the Web Site now being available to many in this age of communication, it is found that they are being used increasingly for the exchange of information between satsangis and other groups concerning Radha Soami Satsang Beas and the spiritual teachings of Sant Mat. This information may be factually correct; however, there may be inaccuracies in either of fact or interpretation. Sometimes we are portrayed positively, sometimes negatively.

"Naturally, satsangis can get perturbed at seeing us presented in an inaccurate manner or interpreted in an incorrect way. It is emphasized, however, that our path is one of pure spirituality, and concerns an individual personally. It is a path where we try to avoid controversies. We do not want to react to others, criticize others, nor to create any kind of disharmony or unpleasantness with anyone by pursuing the matter unnecessarily.

"Therefore, it would be better to ignore whatever may appear on the electronic media concerning ourselves. We need not bother or worry ourselves about how other portray us or see us, even if they view us in an unfavourable light.

"Satsangis are advised not to use E-mail, or other media such as Internet to conduct satsangs, formal or informal, or to communicate or distribute Sant Mat teachings, Sant Mat literature, Sant Mat related photographs, satsangi names, addresses and initiation data, or other similar material of confidential nature. In addition, Web-Sites & Home Pages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat."

[end]

[Mungos]

Tao i was adviced by Gurinder to go to internet and read and check everything especialy critic. Almost ten years ago. My almost all search and readings before initiation come from internet.Peace

[Mungos]

And yes Tao, Mike, Brian. If you ever travel Europe you are welcome to my house with full hospitality, really.

And this little story comes to my mind.

The Four Musketeers

Us four would go everywhere and have fune and we would come to my home and went to sleep and in the morning there would be stories in each room.

Tao would chant Krishnas stuff and spice and colouring everything a little bit with my drum.

Mike: 'Uf which technique i will use today so many gurus and techniques so when i count them all two hours will pass'..

Brian: 'Should i start simran from the last name or maybe the middle i don'z know. Or should i spell them reverse, yes that will work and in Chinese language, oh yes ...The One..THE ONE..but hey..who's the one where is the one what what the one,one two three no one, or maybe should i write a new book and it will be called 'My jogging is blogging'..yes'

And me:

Oh gosh it's already morning time to meditate..ah i will do it tomorrow.
my left side: no manana man and my right side oh yes manana...and on and on.. Uf i will try a little bit of Taos Krishna stuff of immediate consciousness..eh but i forgot all those words he instructed to me..uf i will try Mikes Pranahuti..ah but there is no master alive and i yet to have order the book..ah i think i will stuck to my dry simran but maybe in the evening i am to sleepy right now.hrrr..

Just for fun!
But seriously guys if you ever come to Europe my doors are widely open for you with all the food, trips around and sleeping place. I will serve you big time. PECE

[TonyM]

I had a look at the RSSB Seeker's Guide about two years ago. It specifically suggested that seekers should research on the internet and suggested putting 'radhasoami' in a search engine as a start.

I'll see if I can get my hands on a recent copy and post the details.

[Blogger Brian]

Mungos, thanks for the hospitality offer. Most generous of you. I haven't been to Europe since 1968, but who knows what the future could bring.

[Marina]

Thanks tAo for informing me;)

No I never heard anything about that and being honest I don’t go for much of the ‘rules’ that these newsletters put out. I suppose I say to myself that it doesn’t apply to me! Lol Actually, one of my pet hates is rules!!!! Oh, I can’t stand them. I know there has to be some, just to try and give guidelines as it could end up like Lord of the flies. But I do like ‘breaking’ them, quietly, when it suits me, but not throwing it in people’s face. What I am trying to say is; I basically do my own ‘quiet’ thing.

Being serious for a moment, whether the newsletter did say that, and I believe you, I think it was because people were getting confused and scared so it was a general thing to help people, if you want to say protect, people from their feelings – nothing wrong with that. Like I say, ‘if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen’!

I do believe what TonyM and Mungos says too. I can’t imagine BJ, now saying, don’t go on this website or that one, I think he would like people to get ‘challenged’ and be open, as it can do away with all this ‘notionate’ stuff we can go on with. If BJ started saying things like “The Church of the Chuchless’ was a cult, I would have to question him as one of my teachers. Why, because I think I wouldn’t like to take ‘advice’ from someone who puts down another group for their ‘beliefs/truths. At the end of the the day, I think we are all ‘looking’ the same thing and we all have our own preferences.

Even if it did come out that we shouldn’t frequent sites like this, I would still do it. I wouldn’t’ see it applying to me. The reason being, I feel it helps me getting other peoples opinion – even if it differs from my own. And I think you are all nice lil pussy cats, disguised as lions – sometimes. ;)

I am not worried about what is written on this site. I think it has helped me to be more open and see the other side of the picture and hopefully I won’t react too much or criticize. Nothing wrong with giving our picture of it though as openly and as honest as we can.

Marina :)

[Marina]

Yo Mungos, you are from Europe too!!!!

If you are ever in my neck of the woods - drop in!!

It's funny. When I see you inviting Brian and other to 'call' if ever in Europe.
I had it in my head, if I was ever over in Oreagon, I think that is where Brian is from, I would surely pop in to see him. I see him as an old friend and would love to meet him in person, an interesting character.

But on the other side of things, yes Brian and anybody else, if any of you are in my neck of the woods, I would love to see ye and welcome ye with open arms....;)I would have a big welcome on the mat!

[Mungos]

At my place you are all welcome.

[Mungos]

Come Brian come.

[tAo]

Marina,

You said: "I don’t go for much of the ‘rules’ that these newsletters put out."

-- I don't think you quite understand, it wasn't the "newsletters" that put out (made) those "rules", it was a formal directive from the head honcho GSD and the RSSB home office. Moreover, the directive has never been formally rescinded, no matter what folks like Tara may speculate upon about GSD getting more "savvy" and liberal about the internet.

"I suppose I say to myself that it doesn’t apply to me! Actually, one of my pet hates is rules"

-- Well, the RSSB has long been an authoritarian guru cult which rigidly adheres to doctrine and dogma, and so bending the rules to suit yourself (like you seem to want to do), is still very much frowned upon. Its obvious that some younger satsangis seem to want to make up their own versions of the path. However the RSSB does not sanction that. If you don't believe me, then go ask them. You can do whatever you like and make it up as you go along, but thats not what RS and its guru teaches.

"I know there has to be some [rules], just to try and give guidelines as it could end up like Lord of the flies. But I do like ‘breaking’ them, quietly, when it suits me"

-- Then you are not serious and you have no discipline, and your sadhana will be worthless and wasted. Foolishness befitting of a clown. Good luck with that.

"What I am trying to say is; I basically do my own ‘quiet’ thing."

-- Then you are not practicing sant mat as RS and its sants and gurus have taught it.

"whether the newsletter did say that..."

-- If you doubt that, then I have nothing more to say to you. I think you are basically a joker and a troll. You are just here to clown around and play games. Fyi, many long time satsangis will verify what I posted.

"I think it was because people were getting confused and scared so it was a general thing to help people"

-- I'm not interested in your empty speculations.

"Like I say, ‘if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen’"

-- You ought to try practicing what you preach.

"I do believe what TonyM and Mungos says"

-- Well, Mungos seems to be a nice guy, but in this case, he just doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. He missed the all-important fact that the RSSB internet prohibition directive, was only for initiated satsangis, not seekers.

"If BJ started saying things like “The Church of the Chuchless’ was a cult, I would have to question him as one of my teachers."

-- You sure seem to be infatuated and obsessed with this BJ character. You have like a teen-age groupie mentality.

"because I think I wouldn’t like to take ‘advice’ from someone who puts down another group for their ‘beliefs/truths."

-- Well in case you didn't know, Sar Bachan is full of that sort of thing. So why then are you flirting with Sant mat and RS? Sounds like you are a bit of a hypocrite.

"At the end of the the day, I think we are all ‘looking’ the same thing and we all have our own preferences."

-- I totally diagree. Imo, people are definitely NOT "all looking for the same thing'. Far from it. Thats absurd.

"Even if it did come out that we shouldn’t frequent sites like this"

-- Its not any "if". Its a fact. GSD and the RSSB issued a formal directive requesting all initiated satsangis to not discuss (etc) sant mat or RS on the internet. Go back and read it. It doesn't matter what you think, or doubt.

"I wouldn’t’ see it applying to me."

-- Then you don't respect and bow to the wishes and instructions of your master. But thats your choice.

"I think you are all nice lil pussy cats, disguised as lions"

-- well then, you really don't know me.

"I am not worried about what is written on this site."

-- No one has said that you should be worried.

"I think it has helped me"

-- Great... if you feel that way, then good for you. I am sure it has helped others as well.

[tAo]

Mungos,
thanks for the invite dude. but would you mind if i brought along some coke and jack daniels, some cold cerveza, and some hot biker chicks? unless you already have all those available. i try not to go anywhere without these basic essentials. and btw, are you in the UK?

Marina,
thanks for your invite as well. the above necessities apply here as well. but also, i really like marinas *grin* because i like sailboats and yachts and mediterranean seaside beaches. so if your place is in close proximity to boats, beaches, and babes... then i'll be sure to come and stay for a good long while. I'll be arriving tomorrow.

[Marina]

Good evening tAo,

tAo wrote:

”I think you are basically a joker and a troll. You are just here to clown around and play games. Fyi, many long time satsangis will verify what I posted.

And there was I thinking the blog was in great form this morning......;)

Now, to tell you the truth, I had to look up ‘troll’ on the internet, because the only trolls I know of are the little doll things, with big hair – and I was pretty sure you didn’t mean that:))

Here is what I found;

• 1) Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can

• 2) Trolling is the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet, generally on message boards. When done in a moderated internet community, this can result in banning

• 3) Trolling is trying to get a rise out of someone. Forcing them to respond to you, either through wise-crackery, posting incorrect information, asking blatantly stupid questions, or other foolishness

Now out of curiosity tAo, which of list above are you referring to (or maybe all)?
And can you back up your ‘thoughts’ on why you said that?

By the way folks, does ANYONE else here feel like tAo, just really curious????

Thanks tAo for the info on “The Zen Teaching of Huang-Po:
On the Transmission of Mind”. I shall definitely check it out!

Marina ;))

[Marina]

tAo,

my place is not on the mediterranean though I am two minutes walk from the beach, which I can see from my house. Just across an open field and there it is.

As for babes, not too sure if there are the kind you like as I don't pass too much remarks of babes - they just arn't my type!

You can do what you like, drink what you like, eat what you like, as long as you just don't force your opinions on me, there is no rules........

Marina :)

[Marina]

Oops tAo,

My last post quote"You can do what you like, drink what you like, eat what you like, as long as you just don't force your opinions on me, there is no rules........

This could be taken out of context, I meant if you come to my house these things will apply......;)

Marina

[Mungos]

Yo Tao the invite was honest and i know that you are not doing that with what you are teasing me. My invite was more of like that of introducing you to my wife and my little children and running around the country. I can only give that what i am living and what i have achieved nothing more nothing less No not the Uk.Peace

[Mungos]

And Tao i am in old school of respecting olders, i was taught like that and i will never never act upon you with my disrespect even if you come and hit my head with the stick i would ever rather run like hell. Peace and Respect

[tAo]

To Tara and readers,

I quite understand. i am sure you know more than i do about whats going on with the RS boss and his moves nowadays. sorry if i sounded cynical. you said that he was
against the internet in the beginning, but he's saying something else today. i don't doubt that.

My point was simply that, as you yourself have said, "nothing is ever recorded and the changes are never explicitly made clear to the Sangat". thats basically my point -- the 1996 internet restriction directive was formally issued by Gurinder Singh, but yet it has never been formally rescinded by Gurinder Singh.

I don't doubt that he keeps changing things, i just think its utter bullshit to make an official announcement and rule back in 1996, and then after some years time, to now just ignore it and never formally rescind it. he should simply come out and say how it is now, one way or the other.

There are people (satsangis), many satsangis, who are still faithfully and rigidly following that 1996 directive. and then there are other people (like our friend Marina and other folks in the past who have come here to this blog to discuss and debate about sant mat), especially younger satsangis, who now take a much more easygoing and liberal stance, and thus they refuse to follow that formal 1996 directive (which the guru never officially rescinded).

I think its extremely irresponsible and dishonest of this guy to play confusing games with people who are sincerely trying to follow the path as it is set forth by the master.

So I think it just goes to show what a pretentious and narcissistic jerk he really is. all he has to do is come out and officially say that its alright for satsangis to talk about sant mat and RS on the internet. how difficult is that? it takes all of ten seconds to write a memo. so whats the big f'ing deal? ...well??

Well, the deal is, that this dude is really just a chameleon who likes to confuse his poor followers in order to manipulate them and keep them subjegated.

If he issued an offical instruction (a directive) back in 1996 (which obviously he did), and now decides that it is no longer reasonable, then he should simply tell the sangat and all the local reps to publically announce (via satsangs and newsletters) that he has now decided that its OK for RS satsangis to talk and communicate about sant mat on the internet. simple as that. but, since is not doing that, then i can only conclude that he is a rather irresponsible and reprehensible fellow, and a very poor guru. actually, he's not a guru at all. he is just a common materialistic businessman out to make tons of money by using his religious power and position. he is not a true guru at all. he is a sham.

Anyway Tara, i wasn't getting down on you personally. you know me better than that. i was simply trying to make a point, as i have explained in detail above.

--------------------------------------------

To RS satsangis and to readers in general:

For the record, i personally don't give a damn what people (satsangis) do... they can talk about sant mat as much as they like. i support freedom of speech. i don't think cult gurus, sants, RS masters, etc have any business telling people what they can and can't talk about... anywhere. i think it just shows how controlling and arrogant this RS master really is (or was).

If it was me, i wouldn't give that bastard the time of day. he doesn't deserve diddly squat. what has he done for anyone? he done away with any charity. He buys up property and stock. he lives in wealth and luxury and gets all his expenses paid, while the poor sevadar sers toil in the dirt. he flies first class or by private jet. and the list goes on.

He is not a sant... not a humble devotee of the supreme divine godhead. he is nothing but a puffwed-up imposter. he is a taker and a user, not a giver.

People who follow him, who foolishly believe in him, are being mislead due to their blindness and ignorance and gullibleness. he is a false guru and a false god. those who follow him, are literally wasting their own precious lives.

To those who are still caught up in this cult, this web of illusion and deceipt, i say that you should think deeply upon what i have said, and liberate yourself from this false guru middle-man.

The divine presence is waiting for you to throw off this veil of nonsense, darkness and nescience. simply turn and commune directly and receive the guidance of the supreme intelligence and pure love of the divine presence.

You don't need any cults or (false) gurus or similar intermediaries. you will never find what you are looking for in so-called masters or their satsangs. you will only find the divine presence right here and now, right where it has always been.

So why do you exchange the infinite love and wisdom and guidance of the divine presence... for some cheap cult guru, some sham, some imposter?

Do you really think that the supremely intelligent and loving divine godhead would actually somehow require you to follow some minor cult and guru???

Think again.

[Dogribb]

I'm curious about the "Faithfully Rigid" how are they coping with all?

[Mike Williams]

" you will only find the divine presence right here and now, right where it has always been."
quote Tao

Nice post Tao. You know, I just thought
of something. I have never heard of any
one ever getting their money back from
a Guru.

People just slink away.

[Marina]

tAo,

You stand corrected as you admitted yourself, good. That is a good sign!
I also like your new usage of the English language, now my granny can read it without blushing.

tAo says:
”For the record, i personally don't give a damn what people (satsangis) do... they can talk about sant mat as much as they like. i support freedom of speech

Well it sure doesn’t come across that way.

tAo says:
”It doesn't matter what you think, or doubt.

Mere speculation tAo. It matters to me.

Again tAo utters:
”I think you are basically a joker and a troll.
More mere speculation which tAo cannot back up! Just all empty opinions with no back up :)))

So again I will send the post back to you.

”Return to sender........
Address unknown
No such person
No one home.........

Marina

[George]

I must say tho i find it very rich for the HKs to criticise RS as a cult - if anything over the years its the HKs who've had very poor press in this regard. And their beliefs are just as pokey.

As for Osho charging money for his spiritual meetings, i do wonder if there is any sincerity to any of this hokum at all, or if they all just charlatans as I originally suspected, before dabbling in the mystical waters of psychological claptrap.

And Marina, you are too sensitive, dont listen too ppl who try force their opinions on you or tell you what you doing wrong or think they know better - I'm pretty sure none of them know a damn thing in any case - do whatever makes u happiest and dont be led down the garden path by everyone that bends your ear.

[tAo]

how the hell would i know? i have no idea how they're coping. i suppose they are afraid to think for themselves. the radha soami zombieland... coming to a satsang near you. anybody up for some zombie hunting?

and well, i guess, like Tara said, they're probably royally confused. but isn't that the general idea? to keep eveyone confused long enough to suck out their blood and money. that strategy must be working pretty darn well.

[Mungos]

Dear Tao if you would leave you would leave and i think you are more in it than many others. You cannot leave and so you are telling everybody to leave even to those who already left like me actualy i never was there. When someone comes with old RS stuff you do not help him you attack him, ok maybe the attack also helps to someone i don't know that.But guess what i never saw this news letters as restrictions and i am way of than phlegm. Look, my music teacher also and even more sharply said to me, 'Do not go to the internet and discuss with other musicians go home and play and practice like hell if you wan't to reach there where great musicians are' And i took it as an advice not restriction and i was not hypnotised by him it was an advice man and it was upon me to apply it and sometimes i do and sometimes i don't but that does not mean that i am not respecting him. But Tao i must say the last long post of you i really liked you know why cause you drop out many of your insults and i think it better suits you like that.
If you really know my Respect to you you would be amzed how respected you can be. And i think that 40+ years of meditation which you got from Charan also gave you your wisdom and He said there are many schools of concentration and i am also using Sant mat for concentration but from then on who knows. As for organisation, who said i have to obey their direct way nobody really. I was brought up in some manner and i know when i get angry when to pull out, when i insult, when i have a problem and when i should fix it in my self. Tao i went to a music school and they have their own rules and sometimes even more strict than in army and with my manner i am trying to follow them and i cannot assure to anybody that i would be able to fill them all. And also i feel the same in RS. Immediately some news comes most of the people obey that rule religiously and they are willing to fight for that, but where does that come from? I think if i again draw the line with music that many people are more into obeying the rules and some small practical advices than real practice. And they deny that feeling of not practicing in them self and for that moment they kind of stay in their own lie. But even that can be fixed and mostly by them selves. Tao even your master Charan said that he does not agree with Jullian Johnson's writing approach and that now that writer is not alive he will not change anything in the book. And similarly i have music books on technique of my instrument from passed musicians and i have a real teacher who says this was good this does not fit you this is no good and so on but this does not change the fact that that passed musician was not a master of his instrument. And even i, do like in my music, i chew many things and than i spit out what is not suitable for me. Remember what Bruce Lee borrowed i think from Krishnamurti:
'Use what is useful and reject what is not useful'
So i have no problem if teaching changes and that differs from books and i would never say to my teacher that he is a hypocrite cause Dear Tao with his help i learned how to play my instrument well. be well and pack your bags and come to me for fun and Tao remember what i said about my Respect to you. Love you and like you man,PEACE

[Marina]

Are the Church of the Churchless folk really what they say they are?

On pondering on this question, I have to come up with the answer, generally no.
To back up why I have come to this conclusion, well let me just say that I find no difference in what this blog is doing than any other religion/spiritual path/people in general who are grasping onto the ‘teachings’ / ‘writings’ / beliefs as if their whole life depends on it. (For a lot of folk on this blog – not all)

All groups seem to have some aspects of this trait, in some form or other, and are generally associated with strong adherence to a set of beliefs – in other words fundamentalists.

Defending their group and putting another down; The very thing they claim these other groups are doing by:

--------------------------------------------
---Seeing only their own side of things.

---Being generally closed minded regarding other viewpoints.

---Attacking anyone who goes against their group’s beliefs.

---Sticking together, backing up each other at the cost of another person, even if the other person may have a point that could be just as true.

---Putting up with personal attack/insult against this other as long as it helps the cause.

---Ostracise anyone on the outside if their feelings still don’t coincide with the groups.

---Not answering questions or giving reasons honestly, but blame, to make their point.

---Clinging onto something that they see as important – out of fear. Fear of what?

---Refusing to be open – their view being right.

---Secretly or publically claiming and being proud of ‘belonging to a special group’.

---Wanting to be right, more than the truth – their own inner truth.

---Not checking in with their inner feelings or enquiring as to ‘why’ I need to attack whatever to see where they themselves arereally coming from. Taking responsibility.

---Unwillingness to see some other side, therefore still causing separation.

---Judging someone without knowing all the facts.

-------------------------------------------

Like all groups, you do have a few who are open, willing to hear the ‘other’ side, though not always agreeing, will agree to disagree and come to a neutral ground realising ‘each to their own journey’ and I have no problem with that.

George you made some very interesting points. I don’t know who the HK’s are but I get the drift.
And yes, I do agree that every group can have an element of, as you say ‘their beliefs being just as pokey’.[as the next]

George you also mentioned Osho and how he is charging money for his ‘spiritual meetings’. I have a different point of view on that. I don’t see that as any different from someone writing a book on spirituality or anything useful and charging money for it. People do have to make a living some way. And again, I will speak for myself, Osho’s You Tube videos really ‘did’ something for me. If Osho was a couple of miles away doing his Transformtion Day, I would definitely go (if he gave it to me for £99) :) I am sure if Osho had ‘all the money in the world’ he would ‘give’ his talks for free.(or maybe not)

George, regarding me being too sensitive, I use to believe that too, because I couldn’t handle it, it left me wide open. Over the years after ‘looking’ into it though, I see it as strength, though I have not always felt that way.

In the former years of my life I was sensitive to everything and if I felt an ‘atmosphere’ for instance anger, because I felt it, I owned it, if that makes sense. I blamed myself.

For me it is not a bad thing, as I say it does leave me open to other people’s views, it annihilates that rigid, hard feeling of having to be right.
Yes it does have its good sides and its challenging sides.

I can be vulnerable to ‘hurt’ but I do end up asking myself what is actually hurting. Who is it that is hurting? Then, comes the laugh. Truthfully though, it can take time to get to the laugh – the deeper the ‘hurt’ the more enquiring it takes but these moments do have the biggest belly laugh ).

I know there is no blaming anyone, any other person because if someone said something that “I” find hurtful, angry, annoying....... it is something I already believe to some extent or I wouldn’t feel that way, it’s impossible. Ok I can be surprised but not hurt or angry. So I usually end up getting to the ‘bottom’ of whatever is going on and the buck always lies with me! Always!!!(even if I don't see it that way)

George, one thing I learned on this blog is that I can listen to other people’s opinions and allow them to have their own and also if people ‘attack’ (for better words) me, it doesn’t cause me real hurt because as I said it leads me back to myself and what is real for me.

Hey, I always was a sucker for the other side!! Defence is the 1st form of attack and we all have an idea of that from an army point of view.

Many people who are looking for the truth or the ‘source’ of things often deny what is presently happening. We can deny what is occurring in favour of waiting for or pretending some ideal or being right. Some of us try to find it out there, some of us try to find it by making themselves ‘better’ people, all according to ideals or standards that we have ‘picked’ up. Neither group ends up being satisfied. Like what Ramana says not quoting verbatim, the self-identity can never be satisfied or find the truth. It can only be relieved temporarily, since its very base is fear. Just more characters in the make believe dream world.

If I stand with my view point over here (with my attitudes and beliefs) then others will be forced to come over here, or me there – I am forced either to oppose or give in, to apply rigid ideas or give up.

If I am already open minded I am already over there, a part of ‘us’, then I don’t need to oppose or attack. I can adjust my side of the relationship in the moment, to the whole relationship – to what is actually happening. It is by holding ourselves as being apart, and attempting to protect that stance, that prevents us from being in touch with the whole, causing big separation.

I personally try to understand the whole picture as what Brian says comes to mind ”I don't like it when people say things like "You're a ......" online when they really have no idea what sort of a person they're communicating with. But then again maybe we do, as how we see others is how we are ourselves. (Boy that quote of Brian’s took some effort to find. :)

Marina :)

[osho robbins]

George,
you wrote: As for Osho charging money for his spiritual meetings, i do wonder if there is any sincerity to any of this hokum at all.
Who said they are 'spiritual meetings' - whatever spiritual means!
This has nothing to do with 'sincerity'. I am offering a seminar - and it has a price tag. It's a business - not a charity.
My seminar is called Transformation Day. It's about facing the truth about how you live your life - it's about awareness - it's about opening up to what your life is really all about - it's about self-discovery. During the event I create an environment in which the participants open up and are able to get insights into themselves.
As for charging - I am running a business. I am not pretending to be some spiritual organisation. It's a seminar - it costs me money to hire a hall for the event. I have staff that I pay. I don't ask for donations. It's a service - and I only want a person to attend who want to be there.
I have no idea where you got the notion that they are some kind of 'spiritual meetings'.
In the real world - things cost money. They have to be paid for one way or another. In RSSB satsangs - you get the illusion it's all free - but it's not. People pay in terms of their time - free labour - but they call it seva. People also give financial donatons. RSSB UK - registered as a charity (no 1013061) currently has over 14 millions pounds in funds - plus a lot more in assets.
Their official purpose is to advance the Radha Soami Faith - for the spiritual and moral advancement of humanity - and for charitable purposes.

[Betty]

TAo

humerous.

Most of the satsangis are:

(1) On social security and have hearing aids

or are

(2) Asian

Fresh, non-Asian satsangis are hard to find these days. A few sons and daughters of satsangi's find there way to Sant Mat. But for the Western, non-Asian, SM is mostly dead. Why? IMO, the whole presentation and delivery is antiquated. Young, Western, people can't relate to it.

Western people came in good number in the late 60's through most of the 80's. Hippies (LSD inspired), others inspired by interest of Beatles in TM MMYogi, last remnants from the Theosophical Society, and many devoted Christians (esp. Catholics) found their way to Charan Singh and Kirpal. Society has changed, young people are exquisitely savvy, value openness, are highly interactive- and are not only wary of traditional religious authority and dogmas but many have no cultural religious sentiments! Overheard some young adults chatting about a movie and the dude said "what'z up with all the Jesus crap anyhow?"

[Marina]

I think Betty has a good point Re:young people being wary of traditional religious authority and dogmas.....and no cultural religious sentiments!

In this day and age, there is not the same empahais on 'practicing' their religion, in fact, mine was never brought to mass because they didn't like it and because I agreed that it was boring,I never forced them. In fact, their granny on their fathers side, whom we lived beside, constanly tried to get them to go as she seen 'they need some religion'.

I think that has 'saved' them in some way as they wern't subjected to 'all those hellish things and evil' that my generation was.

I think they will find their own way - they know themselves.

I never forced RS onto them or made them be vegetarians - they were 9, 7, & 6 at the time.

I can see how I got into RS as it promised 'salvation' being saved, which was what I thought I needed.

Again for me, I liken RS to the Ramana ghost story. Me being the little girl wanting to hold onto her fathers hand so she will be saved from the 'ghost'.......

Of course until I see there is no 'ghost' (self) to be saved and then I can finally let go and say thank you for being there while I needed you.

Marina

[Catherine]

dr...well said on 2 June!

[George]

Marina,

Agree that sensitivity is a great strength, but you also gotta be careful of merely being subservient to the whim and psycologies of others, and becoming victimised by others who dont actually know any better. Introspection's fine, but dont overdo it, no-one's perfect and no-one knows the answers, not even close. Bottomline you never have to apologise for your beliefs or your opinion, if others want to attack you, tough shit.

Osho videotape;s were very clear, but I am circumpsect of two issues:
i) the lists drawn up were not RS teachings, they were interpretation of so-called v1 and v2 versions. There was no source anywhere in the video indicating that his interpretations are verifiable. They might be, but we dont know, its sourceless conjecture.
ii) someone mentioned his charging for spirituality, which I personally find extremely offensive. But i guess if ppl are foolish enough to waste their money, then they get what they deserve. However, imo anyone who tries to make a living from spirituality is immediately suspect, unless its solely for charitable purposes. Perhaps the one thing that is the strongest and only evidence for a higher transcendental realm or spirituality are concepts like charity and altruism - making money does not feature in any of true precepts of the worlds great religions or moral teachings.

Osho,
But what service are you running? What are your expertise to justify such costs? Is your intention to make money or to help other ppl? What do you think makes you qualified to help other people? What if all this self-help nonsense is actually doing more damage to them than anything else?

I can understand like-minded people getting together and exploring their ideas together, but good god almighty all i know is a fool and his money are soon parted.

Well anyway that my viewpoint, who knows maybe all these self-help and new-age gurus do make a difference, i think they make it worse, and have absolutely nothing to sell and certainly no verifiable knowledge.

[Marina]

Well George,

I know, I know, I can take others ‘word’ over my own and end up confused; just one of my little weaknesses (self doubt) that I am aware of, and at this stage noticing more than ‘trying’ to fix it. But hey, old habits can take time to drop.

Introspection – yep I can take that one to the limits. People have pointed that out to me here on this blog. But I sometimes choose to take the huff because maybe it was ‘given’ to me a tad sarcastically or ignorantly. One thing I do notice and I am not sure if it works for other people the same but, the way to my heart is not by forcing or being angry with me but by being genuine even if they are disagreeing. Another strong reaction due to my experiences of life! Ah we all have our own lessons!
But yes, I will be more aware of it.

On Osho’s take on SM, I just take it that he is giving his version of how things seem to be changing as I have adapted the ‘teachings’ as years pass.

By that I mean, I drop the ‘needs’ or false assumptions. I don’t think BJ is going to do it for me; for me he is only pointing the way. I have taken him of his pedestal long ago, although being aware he never asked me to put him there. I think it all has to do with taking responsibility for myself.

I do think we all see RS or any other teaching from our own perspective and where we are at ourselves. I do respect peoples own views on this and all I am asking is for people to respect mine – even if we don’t agree.

Thanks George, I appreciate your comment.

Marina

[George]

Marina,
Yes I thought Osho's video was very clear, but i had no idea there was a market going on behind his talks etc.

This straight away brings into question what is it that he is peddling and does he himself have an agenda to try show that RS is moving towards his own belief system. In other words, that his particular brand of spirituality is more progressive or advanced and that RS is now only catching up.

If ppl are interested in that sort of thing, thats there business, but thats exactly why i personally am very retiscent of spirituality since to me it just seems like a racket. Most of teh gods, cosmologies and experiences are all so different, they cant all be right, so the most logical assumption is that none of them are. And when money is involved it really is the icing on mans cake.

[tAo]

Mungos,

Apparently you have several misconceptions about me.

(a) I never said anything about 'leaving'. nor did i tell anyone else to "leave". nor am i "into" whatever it is that you seem to think i am "into". you are either misinterpreting or making unfounded assumptions.

(b) I have not attacked anyone. i simply posted some factual info (excerpts from the RS newsletters), and also a few of my own personal opinions. thats all. i have not attacked anyone.

(c) The internet restriction was published in the RSSB sangat newsletters. and it'sobvious that it clearly was restrictive. thats not an opinion, thats a fact. just read what it says. restriction was the purpose of it. and just because you don't see it as being restrictive, doesn't change the fact that its obvious purpose was to restrict satsangis from discussing santmat/RS on the internet. that was very clear. your personal opinions, and how you feel about it, doesn't change that fact.

(d) Fyi, i did not "get" 40 years of meditation and wisdom from Charan. I have done meditation since 1966. Charan had nothing to do with that. RS initiation was thru Charan, but that occured years later. and Charan had zero to do with mny meditation or any wisdom that i may have acquired. wisdom comes through real life experience and work. it doesn't come from cult gurus. nor does Chran deserve any credit for my meditation. Charan did not do the meditation, i did. so i don't know where you got this idea that Charan gave me anything. he didn't. i did not derive anything from Charan. all he did was to accept and approve my initiation application. he gets no credit whatsoever for my doing 40 years of meditation.

(e) What "insults" are you talking about. where exactly did i "insult" someone?? actually, some people here have been insulting to me lately, but i have not insulted anyone. so i don't accept your implication. i think you misinterpreting, and perhaps also parroting other trollish detractors.

(f) I don't care about what Julian Johnson wrote.

(g) I never said that any "teacher" of mine was a hypocrite. so what/who are you referring to??

------------------------------------------

Marina,

Your list revolves around your incorrect premise that this blog is some kind of unified "group" or cult, like RS.

No, it is definitely NOT. it is simply various different and independent individuals, who hold many different opinions with some similar and some opposing viewpoints.

[osho robbins]

Marina,
everyone hears what they want to hear. I have heard Gurinder tell people not to put him on a pedestal and to talk to him on the same level. At the same time - He still does the ritual of giving darshan before satsang.
People make of it what they want to make. We are all looking through our own personal filters - and we all have different conclusions

[osho robbins]

George,
what costs are you talking about? I charge 99 pounds for a full day seminar. There's nothing to justify. If a person gets nothing from it - i give them a full refund.

[osho robbins]

George wrote:
Yes I thought Osho's video was very clear, but i had no idea there was a market going on behind his talks etc.
There is no market going on behind my videos. Transformation Day is UNRELATED to this blog and to sant mat. I am not likely to pick up any students from this blog and I have no intention to do so. If that was my intention - then I would have created something more relevant to this blog.
George wrote:
This straight away brings into question what is it that he is peddling and does he himself have an agenda to try show that RS is moving towards his own belief system. In other words, that his particular brand of spirituality is more progressive or advanced and that RS is now only catching up.
This is your personal view of the world George. If you even went to the transformationDay site you would see it is unrelated to sant mat - or even enlightenment. Transformation Day is a one day intense seminar and it's about seeing beyond the limitation that you have created which you think is how life really is. When you see beyond those limitation - a whole new world opens up - you realize you've been living in a box - but the box is not real - it is a construct.
It's a bit like RSSB followers breaking free from the RSSB belief and realizing life is more than just what they hear in satsang.
Transformation Day is not a path like RSSB - it is not an alternative to it - I am not recruiting anyone.
Geroge wrote:
If ppl are interested in that sort of thing, thats there business, but thats exactly why i personally am very retiscent of spirituality since to me it just seems like a racket. \
That's just your view of the world - and that creates your experience - which to you seems like reality. But it's not - it's just your version and you are creating it.
Geroge wrote:
Most of the gods, cosmologies and experiences are all so different, they cant all be right, so the most logical assumption is that none of them are. And when money is involved it really is the icing on mans cake.
George - that's not even logic. You are saying that if most roads don't lead to Rome - it means that no roads lead to Rome. Not sure where you get that logic from.
And you told you life was logical? Logic is not the answer to everything - especially your type of logic.
Zen for example is all about dropping the logic - because logic is a barrier.
Zen story:
student: What is the mind?
Master: Mind is the Buddha
Student: Thank you sir, Now I see.
Master: Now that you see - I say there is NO MIND and NO BUDDHA
Student: Then why did you say that Mind is the Buddha
Master: I has to stop the baby crying

[osho robbins]

I find it interesting how poeple feel insulted by Tao - and then tell him that he is insulting. When the truth is that the person experiences 'INSULT' because they are not used to anyone talking (or writing) in this manner.
In fact - he is not 'insulting' or anything else - he just has a unique style of expression.

How YOU experience him - is YOUR own personal contribution. It's what you bring to it. It comes from you.is
it
And you experience it - like it is REAL. That Tao is ACTUALLY insulting. As if that is HOW IT IS.

But it's not - that is how you have CREATED it for yourself - and therefore it is what you experience.

Life consists of events that are all NEUTRAL in nature. Then you add the MEANING. Why - because as a human being - that is what you do - create meanings.

As soon as something happens - the question arises in the mind - what does this mean?

It actually means nothing - it's just an event. But you make it mean something specific. And what you make it mean - is YOUR meaning. And your meaning creates YOUR perception.

However - you are UNAWARE of this - so you THINK and EXPERIENCE that the event ACTUALLY MEANS what you think it means.

So you blame and you think someone has insulted you - or they are rude - or they have no manners etc.

In fact - it's all rubbish. I mean how would you experience someone who was eating some food at the dinner table with you and farting at the same time?

Would you not call him RUDE? When in fact - he's just doing two natural things - at the same time.

It happened recently. My mum, brother, his wife, and I were all eating when this other person - who was eating with us - farted while eating. We all just laughed. Why was it funny?

Because we created the 'funnny' - you can create any meaning you choose.

The person who farted was my brother's 15 months old son.

If he does that when he's 15 years old - the same action is going to be labelled differently.

REALISING (not just hearing) that you are creating all the meanings in your life and your meanings are creating your experience - is a major shift in awareness.

It frees you from being a ROBOT.

[Mungos]

Dear Sir Tao first of all i will not go and copy paste your words to others to prove you something. Bacically i don't mind where you got your wisdom from, but for me, you got it. And how i explain my thoughts about this is another thing and for the thruth about yourself you have the last word and that need to be respected. My thaughts are not final and set and you are helping me to clear my picture about you. But it is my right to express that i like your harsh words less than other approach but maybe, maybe even your harsh words are colouring your point. You did not insult me and what you have with others is none of my business. I will still do my meditation but you have to understand that sometimes when someone like me likes someone like You and thus makes me that open, and sometimes it is hard to handle what the 'Liked' person is saying to the one who likes the 'Liked' person. PEACE and RESPECT

[Marina]

Well Osho,

I do happen to agree with you about taking insult.

tAo has talked (written) to me in a certain way and I replied to him not from a place of insult or blaming him, as I didn’t take it that way. To me it was really amusing. (That was the genuine meaning that I gave it) As I said somewhere, Charan once supposedly said words to the effect ‘no one can insult you. They only insult what they think is you. It is like a present, you can refuse to accept it’.

But because I replied back in a non defense way, tAo now thinks I am a joker and a troll.
I don’t take insult to that but I am interested in how tAo now believes that. Curious, just like you Osho when someone tries to ‘insult’ you, you come back with your meaning to it.

But you are only seeing one side of the story, or maybe not but have mentioned only one side. tAo may be writing from his own unique style but it does come across that he is, well let’s just say angry.
If we take ‘insult’ to that anger and react back I agree, nothing to do with tAo but our own beliefs or interpretations, or reasons why we make it so.

tAo’s side however, is the same thing. He also may read some comments and let’s say take ‘offence’ to what I (or anyone else) have written and make it mean ‘Marina is a troll’. I can make that mean what I want; I do like to know his reasons out of curiosity and I have my personal opinion of why he would see it that way – because he expected to get a different response and when I didn’t take it seriously he comes up with another meaning. But hey, we all do it to some extent. When you begin to take responsibility for ‘creating’ (yes Brian, creating) your own experiences, you are well on the way to, let’s just use another word than ‘enlightenment’ which can have so many weird connotations, let’s just say freedom!

Nothing is ever personal until we take it that way.

But you cannot fake it. If I happen to react it is because I am buying into that ‘belief’ or taking the meaning I gave it to be true. So yeah, where is the blame really?

Regarding my comment about the blog being no different than religious groups, that is what I was trying to say – the same dynamics are present on this blog also and to say they are not is in denial. You just have to look at any thread and see it for what it is. More of the same – which can be fun (or not) and a learning process (or not).

Reality is just reality until we put our meaning to it. All back to ourselves folks. Now isn’t that good news?

Regarding your comments about eating and farting, well I just LOL. :)))

The other day I was minding my grandson. I noticed myself saying to him when he passed me ‘Noah, have you a dirty bum? (He is still in nappies /diapers) His usual response is one of ‘ No,ganny mena, I clean bum’ and he runs and hides before I can get him.

I asked myself on many occasions why he does this as surely it would feel much better that carrying around a nappy full of ‘shit’.

It dawned on me that the way I had asked him could have been taken as an accusation. Sitting later outside, my husband, Noah and myself, my husband’s stomach let out a big growl that sounded like a fart. Noah turned to him and said ‘you dirty bum’. I then happened to have some wind, so I let of a whopper of a fart and Noah turned to me and said ‘ganny mena, you have dirty bum.’ I found myself saying to him ‘yes Noah, ganny mena dirty bum, I mentioned my husband has dirty bum and Noah has dirty bum.’

Well, you should have seen his little face. He was so delighted. He repeated what I had said and it felt like it was a party to him. “YES, WE ALL HAVE DIRTY BUMS!!!”

The next time he had a shitty nappy, he came over to me and said, ‘ganny mena, I have dirty bum.’

The moral of the story being..........well I’ll leave it up to your good selves to the take the meaning form it. :))

Marina ;)

[Marina]

Hi Tara,

I think we are basically saying the same thing regarding Osho's videos on SM.

I do agree Osho is making things clear as to how the teachings seem to be changing. And yes, I do also feel Osho has nothing to gain from this. My choice of words may or may not have been the best.

I do see, however that it is up to each an every person to enquire for themselves what that means for them - honestly and sincerely. Whatever they want to do after that, hey, it's up to them. Tara, we all believe what we want to believe at the end of the day. Just a human thing. We all have different needs. If I for instance totally left RS, I wouldn't personally have anything bad to say about it as it has helped me when I was in a very dark hole. Who knows which way I'll go in the future?

I also agree that I have enjoyed a relaxed approach to the path - but believe me, I had my weird concepts about it too :)))I could easily blush just thinking!

As to the confusion thing, which I am now going to call it 'POSSIBILITIES' I probably always heard that BJ was just a guide, though saying that it was a bit of a shock when he said about Master meeting us after death is a concept (not in those words). But it makes sense to me (well a little) that it propably is our own projection of our mind and eventualy we will realise 'I Am That' sort of thing.(Ramana had started at that stage to have an effect on me).But who really knows? But I still hold to, 'where there is a need, there will be a service' for those who need it until they don't.

One thing is for sure Tara, whether I am right or wrong, I am gonna be relaxed and chilled out and enjoy whatever the journey brings.....(till I don't:)

I also hear what 'older' satsangis(meaning ones who have being involved in RS a long time) or those who have close up and personal contact with the higher up's, are trying to say. But it is difficult for me to really comment as I have no experience there. Oh yeah, you know me, I could come up with a few idea's, but idea's are all they would be. And yes, I have given a few of my 'ideas' on the blog...I know, but only 'ideas'.

Bottom line, I am beginning to realise everyone of us have had different experiences, are coming from different conditioning, have their own personal encounters and honestly I am ok with whatever people want it to mean for them.

I am not too interested in getting people to wake up, I am too busy seeing if I am awake myself - or maybe you could call it selfish, or smart, or wise :)

Marina