Has Gurinder Singh revised Sant Mat to v. 3.0?

Sant Mat is an Indian mystical philosophy that can be translated as "path of truth." I was an active member of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), one of the various Sant Mat branches, for about thirty-five years.

Back in the old days, the RSSB guru taught that spiritual truth was unchanging. But with a new guru, we've got new truths. To me, that's refreshing. It's probably disconcerting to those who held a rigid fundamentalist view of Sant Mat, though.

Five years ago I wrote a post about "Sant Mat, version 2.0." This is how I summarized the changes that Gurinder Singh apparently has made to the RSSB teachings.

(I say apparently because the current guru doesn't allow his talks to be recorded, and he doesn't write anything himself. So this makes it difficult to pin down what he's telling people.)

Sant Mat v. 1.0
--The guru is God in human form
--The guru is perfect, possessing God’s divine qualities
--God has chosen certain souls to return to Him
--God delegates the guru to initiate these “marked souls”
--Without initiation by a perfect guru, God-realization is impossible

Sant Mat v. 2.0
--The guru is a human who is seeking God, just like us
--The guru is imperfect, just like us
--Whether we want to pursue God-realization is up to us
--The guru is a spiritual guide, not a savior
--There are many paths to God, not just Sant Mat

Now it looks like Gurinder Singh is wandering even farther from the tradtional Sant Mat path. On a recent Church of the Churchless post, someone who signed his/her comments "A Typical Follower" shared these thoughts:

I was at the national satsang [gathering of disciples] in the UK last weekend. Gurinder has changed from the old days. His teachings are going through a noticeable change - and so is he himself.

What I noticed is that
(1) He talks a lot about The ONE
(2) He laughs and jokes a lot
(3) He tells people not to be so serious
(4) He tells them that the master will not come at the time of death - that they have mis-understood the teachings. Just as it does not take four lifetimes.
(5) He says there are no regions - that Sach Khand does not exist - neither does Sat Purush. He says they are levels of consciousness

He says the purpose is to REALIZE that there is only the ONE - and that we are caught in maya - duality.

Having the darshan of the physical master is not even mentioned anymore. He says seva will not help you make any progress - it simply makes you humble if done correctly. There is no spiritual merit.

You will NOT be able to succeed through meditation. Meditation is just to make you give up. You can never get there through your efforts.

Now these kind of teachings have never been given before in rssb.

---------------------------------

yes - things are changing and they're changing fast. If a satsangi (just imagine for a moment) from charan Singh's time was in deep meditation (just humour me!) for the last 35 years - isolated from the world, and if he had reached Sach Khand and shared amazing moments with Sat Purush Himself, can you imagine the culture shock if he came back to satsang? So all his 35 years were for nothing and the Sat Purush thing is just his own personal illusion.

I am sure he would get just a little upset when he realised he had wasted 35 years trying to get to a fictional Sach Khand.

It would be kind of funny really - but that might just be because I have a wierd sense of humour.

Anyway - the point is - that older generation - from the 80's and earlier still don't understand that the teachings have been definately changed. Gurinder is currently teaching a hybrid version of sant mat - a sort of halfway station between the old teachings and Advaita / Enlightenment.

Many of the statements he now makes have never been heard of in sant mat. And he sometimes says that he is trying to confuse everyone - well - he's not doing a bad job there because most people who follow it - and listen to what he is saying - have no idea what is going on at all.

And confused people make good subjects - the just do as they're told without thinking - which might just be his strategy.

Having written a book called "Return to the One" about Plotinus, a Neoplatonist Greek philosopher, I like the new emphasis on The One. I have no idea what The One is, and neither did Plotinus, because The One is -- obviously -- not something separate that we can have ideas about.

"Return to the One" started off as a RSSB publication back when I was a true believing disciple. Eventually I published it myself, partly because I didn't want to change Plotinus' teachings to make them conform to what RSSB editors wanted.

I guess I was ahead of the times.

Now it sounds like Gurinder Singh is embracing much of Neoplatonism, a monism that bears quite a bit of resemblance to Vedanta/ Advaita/ Buddhism if you unfocus your mental eye and don't pay too much attention to philosophical details.

Anyway, it's nice to see that the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas is loosening up, laughing more, letting go of a lot of rigid traditional Indian supernatural beliefs.

Some have suggested that this is what happens when a guru makes over $250 million while on the job. Being super-rich can encourage people to say how they really feel. However, it isn't possible to say with certainty what is causing Sant Mat to morph into version 3.0.

I just like it better.

Comments

[Catherine]

Yes, he certainly seems to prefer your philosophy!

[KARAN]

1] The guru is a human who is seeking God, just like us

ans] Babaji has several times told in satsang that mystics are humans
aswell and their body will also come to an end therefore we shuld not
worship the body but do meditation and far as seeking is concerned he
is humble towards his master who is god

2]The guru is imperfect, just like us

ans] He means that he is imperfect in front of his predeccsors as every
saint is extremly humble and even after attaning highest consciousness
he wants to be the dust of his master/predesscors

3]Whether we want to pursue God-realization is up to us

ans] He means that following sant mat is their wish and no one will
force it upon them

4] The guru is a spiritual guide, not a savior

ans] This is obvious no perfect saint calls himself a saviour this the
mark of a perfect saint

5]There are many paths to God, not just Sant Mat

ans] He means that a seeker is free to follow any path of his choice
and sant mat is one of them and no one will for force him to come to sm

6]What sum1 noticed is that
(1) He talks a lot about The ONE
ans] Thats the reality theres only 1 god

(2) He laughs and jokes a lot
ans]He wants to make the foreghners comfertable in satsang

(3) He tells people not to be so serious
ans] He wants people to be happy

(4) He tells them that the master will not come at the time of death -
that they have mis-understood the teachings. Just as it does not take
four lifetimes.

ans] Almighty babaji has said almost in every satsang that if we dont
do our duty [ dhyan] master may or may not come at the time of death
and there is no guarantee

(5) He says there are no regions - that Sach Khand does not exist -
neither does Sat Purush. He says they are levels of consciousness

ans]This is totaly wrong i havent heard such thing and yes higher
stages means higher consciousness he must have used consciousness to
explain inner journey to the westerners

[KARAN]

At BRIAN,TARA,TAO,CATHERINE,ROGERS AND ALL THE CRITICS before critcising a saint first look at yurself u r full of judgement,ego,materialism etc u all are disatified with life and uncertain about yur futre

and look at the master who will forgive evil charecters like u and will not mind a single word which u have said to him

and thats the difference between GOD and ordinary humans like us

[Seeker2011]

Rock on Babaji Gurinder, got to hand this one to you! Finally - now at a National Satsang - you've found the courage to at least begin to say it as It is!

Three/four years ago - Xmas Dera session - you did try. Used the word 'rubbish',the ol' mumbo-jumbo, to describe SM/RS teachings about inner realms/gods/radiant forms/GIHF et al. Of course, everyone just laughed. No one wanted to &/or did really believe you, not even those you then went on to appoint to high posts at Haynes! They didn't have a clue! 'Rubbish' ... just the old Guru pulling our leg, again!

But, Truth is you weren't!

Definitely got to hand this one to you ... just a pity it came cushioned with a $250mill security blanket.

[Dogribb]

Well if there levels of consciousness.Does meditation and listening to the shabd and seeing the light a means of assess to to these levels?How many years will that take?Seeing as 1 life is enough.

[tucson]

Well, if the teachings 1.0 from Charan Singh's days are now outmoded, by what authority is Gurinder Singh a Sat Guru?

According to traditional RSSB teachings, a Sat Guru is one who has reached the pinnacle of spiritual heights, the rarified atmosphere of Sach Khand where one hair on the body of God is equivalent in brightness to millions of suns. Since the body has 100's of thousands of hairs (unless God has mange) you can imagine that God is one really luminous dude.

Anyway, it is the authority of such a "master" that passes the mantle of this exalted title to his successor, which Charan Singh did in his will to Gurinder Singh.

BUT, since Gurinder says in version 3.0 that it's all BS (to be concise and to the point), then it follows that his appointment to Sat Guru of RSSB is BS as well.

Gurinder has indirectly admitted that he is a fraud and there is nothing to RS teachings.

Now he says meditation doesn't count for much. Yet, his devotees are still very concerned about buying cheese made without rennet. If meditation is no big deal, where does that put the rennet issue in level of importance? Or a portion of an egg in a serving of mayonnaise?

You followers of Sant Mat are devotees of a guru who admits his title means nothing (is BS). Yet you are dumb enough to follow him around like a bunch psychophant goons avoiding egg wites and rennet. Holy shit!!He's got you by the short and curlies. Wake up!!

Why do you submit to this man?

Good grief.

[Roger]

tucson,

If a psychophant goon had a desire to eat some tommyrot, would this affect the path to Sach Khand? True, i'm just a simple idiot, trying to find my almighty god. Thanks for any help you can bring my way, Roger

[tAo]

Karan,

Personally (imo), I think you are not very intelligent. I also think that you are an arrogant pig. You come to this site, yet you do nothing but preach the same old bullshit dogma and lies, and you cast the same old judgements at other people... people who at least have some fair ability to think and reason for themselves... and thats something which you seem to be quite incapable of.

You think that just because you say something, that it makes it true. but the fact remains, you are a blatant hypocrite.

RSSB is a fraud. its leader is a fraud. just like that sicko sob Sai Baba was a fraud.

Karan wrote:

"Babaji has several times told in satsang that [...] he is humble towards his master who is god"

--who says? and how is that any different than someone else saying that that so-and-so god? its the same stupid nonsense.

"At BRIAN,TARA,TAO,CATHERINE,ROGERS AND ALL THE CRITICS [...] look at yurself u r full of judgement,ego,materialism etc u all are disatified with life and uncertain about yur futre"

--it is YOU who are making "judgement" upon others. it is YOU who are exhibiting "ego". it is YOU who are worshipping an exceedingly materialistic guru, and an organization that owns and maintains a huge amount of material property.

And as for my future, well i am much more certain about that than you are.

I couldn't care less about your disgusting master. "god", my ass. he is the one who needs to get down and beg for forgiveness. he is the liar and the fraud. he is the "evil character".

You can go tell him that (just like sai baba), god's gonna cut him down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxh-FfElY0M

Johnny Cash - God's Gonna Cut You Down

You can run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Sooner or later God'll cut you down

Go tell that long tongue liar
Go and tell that midnight rider
Tell the rambler,
The gambler,
The back biter
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down

Well my goodness gracious let me tell you the news
My head's been wet with the midnight dew
I've been down on bended knee talkin' to the man from Galilee
He spoke to me in the voice so sweet
I thought I heard the shuffle of the angel's feet
He called my name and my heart stood still
When he said, "John go do My will!"

Go tell that long tongue liar
Go and tell that midnight rider
Tell the rambler,
The gambler,
The back biter
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down

You can run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Sooner or later God'll cut you down

Well you may throw your rock and hide your hand
Workin' in the dark against your fellow man
But as sure as God made black and white
What's done in the dark will be brought to the light

You can run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Sooner or later God'll cut you down

Go tell that long tongue liar
Go and tell that midnight rider
Tell the rambler,
The gambler,
The back biter
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut you down
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut you down
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut you down

[Mike Williams]

That was an outstanding post Brian.

I was brought up Catholic unfortunately.

When I was a kid it was a mortal sin to eat
meat on Friday and touch the Holy
Commmunion wafer.( As in go to hell
forever).

Now both are allowed. It is a sin for
women to use birth control now, even though
the vast majority already do.

Religion changes to the times.

As people get smarter to the point where
the religion must change, only then
does it change.

But, how many of us would us would have
ever believed in Sant Mat had the truth
been told in the first place ?

The whole thing was a ball of lies.

Rajinder still tells these pack of lies.

Read Kirpal's "GODMAN", for the most extraordinary rhetorical nonsense ever
published in the history of mankind.

LIE AFTER LIE AFTER LIE.

It must be remembered Gurinder is not
stupid.

But, it must be remembered Rajinder is.

Which is why I consider Rajinder's cult,
the most dangerous on the earth.

They have divorced from Radhasoami and use different names for the same old religion.

I believe Kirpal was the most deceptive
and cunning Guru that has ever appeared.

I believe he was Satan incarnate.

And, I don't mean that figuatively.

[Marina]

Well Brian, this one's for you!

Genuinely...... I would like to hear what was your turning point with RS, as 35 years was a long time to be in something and then to get out after such a long time...(exactly what was it that changed your mind, did it happen all at once or was it a nagging gradual feeling that was around for a while? )
I would love to hear your experince!

You may have mentioned it before on your blog but I am too lazy to go through the archives:)))

[Jayme]

"However, it isn't possible to say with certainty what is causing Sant Mat to morph into version 3.0."

Maybe it is just a time of letting go of all the bullshit. For some reason, people like listening to BS. It entrains a lazy mind and keeps it from dwelling on the more miserable aspects of a life we've created for ourselves (speaking for myself of course).

The problem with all this master/disciple stuff is that the disciple become fixated on the concepts given them by 'their' master they wish to possess and in doing so, they miss their own experience of the One by thinking they've somehow aquired some wisdom.

Disciples somehow think the thing they are looking for is 'something' and somewhere else. All this 'oneness' stuff is in your own head. If you don't understand it here and now, then you're lost in the then and there (pure fantasy and delusion).

Maybe Gurinder is simply being iconoclastic (erecting new icons to replace the old).

Sant Mat 3.0 sounds like a windows 95 upgrade. I wonder if anyone ever experiences the blue screen of death while fiddlin' with this new operating system - lol :-)

Ctrl + Alt + Del: the history...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zADyh0JQh8

Terence Mckenna - Culture is your operating system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c8an2XZ3MU

[Dogribb]

Shabd or Oneness its all still a fantasy perpetrated by a minor Oz

[Jayme]

"Well, if the teachings 1.0 from Charan Singh's days are now outmoded, by what authority is Gurinder Singh a Sat Guru?" - tuscon

good question

By the authority of the needy little bastard disciple who wishes to follow and not be responsible for their own lives. They throw money or lavish attention at someone else and then demand that the person perform. And so, the 'Master' performs to his live audience. What is the saying? When the disciple is ready the master appears? How convenient? Barnum of PT Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute." LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute

It is funny, really, because the disciples mask themselves off and deny God is closer than their very breath. They whine and cry and gnash their teeth saying - 'oh save me master save me - I love you, please love me in sort of a Barney moment.

Barney (I Love You Song) Great Quality!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzo0iHrivVQ

I love you
You love me
We're a hap-py fa-mi-ly
With a great big hug
And a kiss from me to you
Wont you be my gu-ru do?
...LOL

The only 'salvation' a disciple has, is to strip the stupored state of misconception away and witness the world for themselves, as themselves without all the preconceptions about what the world 'ought to be' and simply experience it as it is. Why gum up the works by throwing a Master in between you and your own 'Godness'? A good teacher is to be respected, but only a deciple has the authority to give over mastership to another man - imo.

[Mike Williams]

The Beas group proper is quite
interesting.

A corporate success.

I wonder someday if the guru
at Beas may not sell his corporation
to another guru. He could simply
say he is retiring due to health
and sell his stock to the next guru.

Take profits and run. Maybe even
experience a hostile takeover.

The board members receiving a golden
parachute from another guru's
corporation.

Why not ?

Radhasoami Beas is clearly not a
religion anymore.

Lets face it. Sawan pulled a coup de tat
on Agra and was a usurper.

Dayal Bagh the same.

Summa Ching Hai and Kirpal the same.

Corporate takeovers. But, each had
to change their name a little and only
got a piece of the pie.

Dayal Bagh actually tried to steal
the entire Agra Radhasoami corporation
in one of the longest running court
battles in Indian history.

Lets say Dayal Bagh makes a billion
dollar offer for RS Beas to Gurinder.

Gurinder says OK.

He simply quits for health reasons and
the Dayal Bagh guru is appointed
his successor. A stock transfer is made
behind closed doors.

Lets face it. All Radasoami is, is
a corporation selling people a religious
idea.

You pay the guru money and work for
him for free and he saves your soul.

Surely Gurinder is tired of being a
guru.

At least he is being honest about it.

Radha Sowami Satsung Beas Really a worldwide famous spritualism non-profit organisation

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tara,
That sounds like a buy out offer
from Beas.

Like Ebay buying Paypal.

What is interesting is Dayal Bagh.
They fought in court to overthrow
the Agra council and failed at the
beginning of the 1900's.

Recently, they want to start their
own RS Council. One of the Gurus
invited is Rajinder.

Now you have the patently bogus
Radhasoami groups trying to band together.

You call me Guru and I will call
you Guru type affair.

A Guru mafia.

But, where is their provenance ?

None of the invited lineages were ever
authorised by Agra Gurus, the
parent stock.

Faquir Chand called them criminals.

CRIMINALS.

What do you say when an ashram guards
itself with guns. Are the Sikhs a success ?
Is RS a success ?

They preach love and practice hate.
They want to kill each other.

Can a thieves den lead one to heaven ?

Do we go to Al Capone for love ?

Do we deserve to ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBqodL2OJ1A&NR=1

[Nietzsche]

Lately Someone told me that there is the folowing Japanese saying:
Don't listen to my words but look where my feet are going.

I am allready at 4.0 where I eat eggs and meat every now and then folowing what my body needs. Gurinder is still a subpersonality in my psyche but it is a good one and now and then I listen. It is not so simple to get rid of a guru and I feel sorow for them that have a guru that uses fear. I'm glad that Gurinder is using jokes. 4.0 is all about laughing with and at him and at yourself. It is also about being critical andvseeing how rsbs can be a negative impact. I mean the rules, the selfsalvation centered and the eternal running from the bad world in stead of existing in it. To name a few.

[Marina]

Looking at the postings on this site has made me think of where I stand for myself.
I have been in RS now since the middle ‘90’s and have been initiated since 98.
Every year, bar one I have gone to Dera.

Before this I was brought up Catholic and had a guilty conscience and straight to hell on a bike I thought I was going! Always been a rebel at heart, I came to the above conclusion after robbing the “Trocaire” box for the poor, I was doomed, along with telling lies at confession, not fasting before communion, told if I was bold I would go to hell and the devil would be there with his big ugly head on him, his pitch fork and a big roasting fire to burn my tush on, and all the other things.
Reward and punishment system comes to mind – just like Santa Claus.

Indeed it was with this frame of mind I approached RS!
I needed an anchor and someone and something to hold on to. I felt I was drowning so I hung on to RS with all my fingertips. Yes, I also did, from my viewpoint, childish things like running after Master, to get the ‘look’ Darshan, put him up on a pedestal and what have you lol. But I am MUCH more mature these days!!:))) I personally have no problems with SM versions updating as ‘times are a changing’ and anyway, what can be said of the truth? As Mirdad says ‘Speech at best is an honest lie.”

It is interesting – my OWN version of Sant Mat has changed over the years.
MY SM version 1.0 looked like this:
• I am one of the chosen ones ( lol) kinda special I am! lol
• Master is God incarnate(up there on a pedestal)
• I belong to an elite group
• RS is the highest and only true path
• Master knows EVERYTHING about me
• It is all in his hands
• He is responsible for me and my life
• No one gets to Sach Khand except though RS
• It will take up to 4 lifetimes to get to SK, depending on ur load
• In 3 months I will be seeing the light, hearing sounds and ahh resting blissfully in SK (lol)
• 4 vows to be kept
• Wow, I have got me a third eye which I can open!

MY SM version 2.0 looked like this:
• I am no longer one of the chosen ones – it’s for anyone who wants it
• Master is human just like us but is in direct communication with God
• Does Master know everything about me?
• Is this really the only path?
• I need to do something here for myself
• I am responsible for putting in the effort
• Hhmmm – no lights or sounds to be seen. Obviously a lot more effort required
• Well maybe it will take me the 4 lifetimes; after all I have a lot of bad karma!
• Don’t need to be splitting hairs over eggs/cheese rennet
• Not sure anymore if I have a third eye. Maybe mine is faulty – nothing happening.

MY SM version 3.0 looks like this:
• We are all in the same boat – no special ones
• Who is Master? Honestly, I don’t know. Though I DO like him.
• Master is a guide (off his pedestal)
• There are many many paths
• I am responsible for myself – no one can do it for me
• Is there really a SK/Heaven? Don’t know
• Is there a hell? Not sure, is it the mind? (see note below on Peter Ralston theory)
• A lot of metaphors that are NOT to be taken literally (reminds me of catholic church)
• Time to examine MY beliefs, programming, concepts etc regarding all this
• Nobody is to blame – I am wholly responsible for all my experiences and perceptions
• Still practicing 4 vows
• Not really interested in third eye experiences, don’t think that is what it’s all about, well for me anyway. (I am not just saying that because I have none lol. At the end of the day, an experience in my view is just an experience and all come and go! Want something that stays)

Now I look upon my change of versions in SM as growing in maturity and shift of focus. A story told in ‘The Path of Sri Ramana Part one by Sadhu Om a good metaphor for my changes in view. The story goes:

“One evening a boy went for a stroll with his father. When dusk had almost set in, he beheld a tree trunk from which the branches and leaves had been cut off. He was terrified and screamed “oh father! There, see, a ghost!” Though his father new the truth, that it was just a stem of a tree, he assured the boy, “Oh that ghost! It cannot do you any harm. I am here and will see to it. Come on.” So saying, he led the boy away. On hearing the encouraging words of his father, he took them to mean, ‘My father is stronger than the ghost and that is why he says that it can do me no harm.’………
Next evening, while going for a stroll with his teacher along the same path, the boy exclaimed, “Sir, look! There’s the ghost: we saw it yesterday also.” The teacher pitied him for his ignorance and said “
That is not a ghost”, but the boy persisted. “No sir, my father also saw it yesterday: he even assured me that he would see to it that it could do me no harm: but sir, you say it is not a ghost at all.” Would the teacher yield so easily? He said, “Go near it and see for yourself: I will shine the flashlight on it. If it turns out to be a ghost, I too will see to it!”……

This for me, are why there are so many representations of the ‘truth’ in SM. Some of us because of our scared, emotional, mental state and all the rest need the reassurance that we will be protected just like the father comforting the boy in the story. To me it is not as if the father lied to the boy, but in his current frightened – or whatever state was told the ghost could do him no harm, which in fact was true. Now leaving the time frame out of it, the teacher goes one further and tells the boy that it could do him no harm but also it wasn’t a ghost. In Sadhu Om’s words is it not like ‘a breath of new life into the father’s statement.”
As Sadhu Om points out, if the boy were to conclude that either the teacher has condemned his father or his father had told him on outright lie, both would be false. Similarly, I don’t think the teachings of RS are lying but different things will be interpreted in different ways, in different situations, with different people as the moment presents itself and as one self’s views change. Also what Faquir Chand said comes to mind here: that it is the disciple’s faith that creates these ‘visions’. Some of us need comfort until we can stand on our own feet and grow stronger in ourselves……One question I have is, if there is a SK and other regions and there are lords ruling over these realms then you still are not free, you still have someone over you! Are these just states of consciousness within consciousness? Confusing to me! So are these metaphors too?

Well anyway, onwards I go or I’ll only burn a fuse trying to figure it all out!
I have over the years read a lot too, partly because of my other half – I think he did a lot in broadening my horizons. From Byron Katie, Echkart Tolle, Marshall Rosenberg, Brad Blanton, Anthony De Mello, Adhashanti, ‘Jed Mc Kenna’, Peter Ralston…….. and much much more.

Sadhu Om’s Ramana book had a big effect on me. Self enquiry……hmmmm I thought to myself.
Funny, I would liken the teaching of Ramana: self-enquiry or surrender[SM way] to the story of the ghost - both seem to end in the same goal.

This Christmas session at Dera, I told BJ that I was sick of chasing the proverbial carrot on a stick for some experience in the future. He told me I could do what I wanted but advised me not to give up my simran. He also said when talking to me that we westerners are full of concepts…..like believing it will take four lifetimes, master will meet us after death. I was a bit shocked at that last part, because I suppose it was one of my beliefs and I asked him and do you not?(meet us after death) to which he cocked his head, lifted his eyebrow and smiled! At another point during the conversation he said that Hector was writing a new book on concepts and illusions. I can’t wait to get my hands on it!!!! To find out what illusions I have.

Regarding how much money BJ has, it doesn’t bother me. I don’t see any wrong in acquiring money and I would like to know his skills in the stock market)). He hasn’t got any money off me personally although I have given a small amount during some of my stays in Dera basically on the principle of having being kept and fed for 3+ weeks. Nothing to boast about I assure you. I sometimes find that people resent others who make money and who are rich especially in my culture we some of us have a sort of begrudging attitude towards the rich and or famous )
I personally cannot find fault with BJ with anything he has said in my company. And I have to say, I do like him and think he has something – which I can’t put words to.
I know I have brought programming over from the good olde catholic days and I am looking into all that stuff. It reminds me of one of Adya’s tapes I listened to where he is saying how one day when he was going to his meditation group in his earlier days he arrived and the group where having a discussion on the progress they were making. Most of them were saying that they hadn’t reached ‘enlightenment’ yet but their lives were better off and they felt much better in themselves. Adya said that something in him screamed (quietly) NO! He said he had a choice to leave his current teacher with the idea that they weren’t much of a teacher but he decided to stay and question his beliefs. I feel this way to sort of. Instead of leaving RS I am questioning my beliefs etc. - This being my own personal choice.

One thing I am looking at is this hell theory. Peter Ralston in his book “The Book of Not Knowing: Exploring the nature of Self, Mind and Consciousness” gives what I think is a cute myth on Lucifer the fallen angel. BJ also said while answering my question at Dera, that there was no heaven or hell or in between – all metaphors in my understanding.
It amazes me though, even though it was my question, if I was getting a million pounds I couldn’t tell exactly what my question was. I suppose it wasn’t too clear to me either. It further amazes me how 10 people can hear something been said and 5 minutes later all have their own version of it – a bit like Chinese whispers! Well anyway, where was I? Oh yeah, the myth….

“A myth of long ago tells us of a fallen angel, Lucifer, whose statement to God went something like: ‘I’d like to rule in hell than serve in heaven.” My (PR) understanding of this myth is that Lucifer is the self – that it points to an illusion within, an activity to which our original being falls prey, separating us from what’s real and true. The hell in which we rule is our own self-mind. The heaven we refuse to serve is the real nature of being, the absolute truth. It is within our own minds that we seem to have free reign. There we can adulterate or distort whatever we wish. We can choose what to accept and what to reject, what to believe and what to disbelieve. It is within our own minds that we can lie, pretend, misrepresent, affect, ignore, and more. It is here that we have our opinions and pass our judgments. We can reorient data, rearrange facts, and disregard the truth if we so desire. We can alter our perceptions and recreate our memories. It is here that we reside as a self overlord. This is where it appears as though we rule………………Although we seem to be the self-overlord, in truth we suffer the consequences of this illusion, and so our little fiefdom also becomes our prison, and we spend our time serving a false master[mind], and struggling against meaningless foes. This is the world of the self.”

So to end this short comment lol, I am after the Truth! No matter what it looks like or if it goes against my beliefs etc and in the meantime I shall not throw the baby out with the bath water!:))))

[Nietzsche]

Still it is difficult to see how we misinterpreted the max = 4 lifetimes rule. There is nothing metaphysical or ambiguous about that statement. So the fault can not be with the disciples.

Now I see two possible consequences of this rule changing.

1- the earlier teachers where making the max=4 rule up to comfort us
2- that the earlier teachers did not know what they where saying

It seems to me that Gurinder should support the first option.
So my conclusion is that the rsbs literature might be there just to comfort us. And I understand this applies to the regions as well.

So what is left after this 3.0?
What are the benefits for joining RS?

But as said before 3.0 is not nearly far enough. Lets first examine the karma rule that is still there.
It is the philosophy of a slave and a lot of Satsangi's might feel proud to be slaves. In real life it means a shitty life suffering stuff that you might have solved if you where pushed by your environment to fight and work for it. Life is a struggle and you are free to shape it anyway you want. Karma makes you give up and suffer to easy.

[Catherine]

Sant Mat claims to be non-commercial. That's on the official website.

At the entrance to Cape Town sangat's temporary premises in a school, there is a large ironically placed sticker promoting Darwinism.

Gurinder is Darwinistic. He makes sure that his sons and daughters benefit massively from his sacrifice. He ensures that if he has a fixed role to play, then he will do it in as much comfort as possible that someone else drives him there, looks after his house, keeps his clothes immaculate, cooks for him, that he has the latest gadgets and travels first class or in a jet and that he is hosted in the best hotels.

He gives his disciples what they want. For the Western mind, it's Zen and humour. For the Eastern peasant it's Sant Mat as it always was served with seriousness.

He hides in a nest of hair, a hat, robes. Why? Is it because he knows his disciples prefer him to look the part of the classical pin-up guru?

[David]

This Gurinder fellow reminds me of Osho and his 80 Rolls Royces. Doesn't it seem incongruous to claim to be non-attached and a renunciant and yet to be so f****** wealthy? If you compare this guy to say, Amma, how much of his money goes into helping India? At least Amma does work sometimes. It seems Gurinder doesn't try to set any example by cleaning dirty toilets etc.

A Jnani is said to be the highest type of soul. But how can anybody become a jnani without effort? Whether in this life or a supposedly past life, there must have been effort made. That is why i don't take seriously people like Eckhart Tolle, who simply woke up one day and became apparently enlightened. That guy is full of the most absurd bullshit i have ever heard.

A good meditation is Yogani's at the aypsite.org. It is only 20 minutes once in the morning and once in the evening. It is very powerful stuff!

[Seeker2011]

Well, well Babaji Gurinder what do they say about a craftsman & his tools?

When it comes down to it what could anyone, let alone you, say to an obviously dedicated satsangi of some 13 years – plenty of Dera / Haynes visits, darshan, satsangs, seva, reading, meditation to their credit – who still feels the need to ask whether YOU will be there when they pop their clogs?

And who is hanging onto their ‘concepts’?

Dear God, let’s hope yet another up & coming Dera publication may come to enlighten all – east & west – as to the nature of concepts per se with, hopefully, particular reference to that very special RS concept – dare we say illusion – of the Master!

Radha Soami

[Mike Williams]

No more inner planes, no Sach Kand, no master
comes at death, the master does not
perform miracles and seva won't help you.

Sounds like Faquir Chand, instead
of Gurinder.

Gurinder once said they need to throw
all their books away. He was right.

From the history to theology, it was
all incorrect.

Now all we need is Rajinder to say
the same as Gurinder.

This is a new age.

All of us together made this happen.

Make no mistake about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvRjGLRQQVk

[Marina]

Well Tara, thanks for your comments, sorry only replying now!

You wrote: “Okay, Gurinder is lightening up a little, but what has really changed ? Will he announce the up-gradations of RS Sant Mat himself and debunk the pile of outdated RS literature ? ( We both know that this is never going to happen ! )”

Well I have heard him say something like – if it was up to him he would burn all the books! IMO why? Some of the old RS literature is old fashioned and for different times. I personally, gave all my RS books away (even - ’Life is Fair’ ;)))) as I took all that stuff literally just like the catholic stuff and prefer to listen to what BJ says – which seems more with the times and he usually puts it in a good logical reasoning way.

Another very personal reason why I don’t read the old RS books is because on their section about suicide and hell. My own 18 year old son, nearly 6 years ago hung himself in the house and all I could think of was one of the astral hells they describe in the books waiting for him. Now I am willing to look at maybe I am changing one set of beliefs for another as to feel better in myself but I DO want the truth no matter if it hurts! Let’s just say ‘I’ll look at what the ‘hurt’ is about. I know there was maybe still is, I’m not sure, talk going about, how an initiates family, back 3 generations or whatever will be looked after. Indeed after the above event happening, some people in their own caring way tried to reassure me I suppose, that master would look after him. It probably is not one of my beliefs that that is true as it doesn’t make sense to me but at the time I probably did indulge in that belief – for comfort. Again, I have to say, I DON’T know what happens after death. As in my previous post, I do like what Peter Ralston says about us creating our own hell – ‘hell’ if we can create it (by our thinking or what not) we can look at how we are creating ‘hell’ or suffering by our thinking, beliefs non acceptance of what is happening etc. rather than a punishment from ‘God’!

And speaking about books! As I said, I CAN’T wait to get my hands on the new RS “Concepts & Illusions” when it comes out – to see if or what unconscious ‘mumbo jumbo’ beliefs I am not aware of! And go on Tara....... I bet you’ll read it too)))

God, I would love to write a book, but unfortunately I think it would be wise to wait at least until some people have passed on))

About me not splitting hairs over eggs/cheese....

You wrote: “Wrong. Says who ? Gurinder himself added rennet to the forbidden list. The obeying Sangat was merrily eating pizza before that tenet came into play. And, an egg-glazed croissant is a still a big boo-boo. Food label scrutiny is an art that has been perfected by the younger generation of the UK Sangat.”

For me it is not a big priority, maybe for other people and BJ it is, but at this present moment of time.....nope! Actually looking back a few years to when people asked me why I didn’t eat eggs that they could understand no meat etc, I remember trying to come up with some good theory that would justify, as I myself didn’t understand why I wasn’t eating eggs and I don’t know where it came from but my guess is ‘gossip’ but I in some cases would say ‘well an egg is a vehicle for transporting life’! Oh God, I can still see the look of 'this one is cuckoo' and yes I did feel like a cuckoo!:))) Now I just generally tell people “I don’t eat anything with a face, an arse or anything that comes out of an arse!” So no, I don’t eat eggs or anything that is clearly labelled eggs but if bread has a glazed top on it and I’m not sure if it is egg or milk glazed, I eat it.

You wrote: “Wow ! Astonishing indeed. You can " do what you want " in HIS words ? Really ? You're a lucky chic ! So I assume it would be okay if I had half a bottle of merlot and chargrilled prawns before I sit down to meditate ? ( Sant Mat 4.0 ! )”

This Tara makes me smile:)) Now you know I meant doing what I want as regards to searching, questioning, looking at other practices. But just humour me a moment and imagine if someone took your quote literality and started a rumour about drinking merlot and eating prawns and how it was now ok, because to me, that is what seems to happen a lot. Can you see how hard a job BJ has????:))) Oh, my heart does surely go out to Him!

Regarding us westerners being full of concepts i.e. It will take us up to 4 life times to reach SK and master meeting us after death...... Nietzsche does have a point.....

Well I still don’t know what the truth is. Does BJ mean that we assume it will take us 4 life times but we can do it with enough earnestness, openness, honesty in this life time – right NOW??? Does he mean master might/might not meet us after death depending on his grace??? I DON’T KNOW. Unfortuenly I didn’t question him further at the time – due to shell shock but next opportunity I get if it still is a question for me I shall ask.

You wrote: “Marina, I've not been able to comprehend the above. Wouldn't you care to find out how Gurinder has made large sums of money after he became the RS Guru ? Have you read Honest Living ? So, is it okay to profiteer from the RSSB-Trust money ? Is it okay to structure your financial clout in such a way that the average Satsangi will think that the Guru has a small farming business ? Is it okay to hide your wealth ? There is nothing wrong in the Guru acquiring money, but there is everything wrong in the Guru acquiring money by the means that the Guru himself preaches against. And, Gurinder has no special hands-on stock market skills. He has hired professionals to do the job for him.”

Now Tara, I now you think you don’t like Mirdad but please bear with me as this is relevant in my eyes to BJ’s ‘money!

Mirday says:

“Shun every judgement seat, my companions.
For to pronounce a judgement on anyone, or anything, you must not only know the Law and live conformably thereto, but hear the evidence as well.
Whom shall you hear as witnesses in any case at hand?
Shall you summon the wind into the court?
For the wind aids and abets in any happening beneath the sky.
Or shall you site the stars? For they are privy to all things that take place in the world?.....
To have evidence complete in any given case the Cosmos must needs be the witness.
When you can hail the Cosmos into court, you would require no courts.
You would descend from judgement seat and let the witness be the judge.
When you know all, you would judge none.....”

I don’t know all or probably any of the details of BJ and or his money so how can I say what is ‘right or wrong’??? I haven’t been there. I don’t know how much he has, how he acquired it, what he’s doing with it and honestly – no, it doesn’t bother me nor do I think it’s any of my business. Like the hair splitting thing, no big deal or not a priority. Though if he has no hands - on stock market skills like you say, he can certainly pick a good professional.
Marina :).

[Catherine]

Today, we received a letter from a Nigerian offering us millions of pounds from a British bank- this is the usual email scam but on paper. A thread running through it is that we should enter into the scam with him without letting anyone else know and as a result we would be richly rewarded. I took it to a police detective.

Initiation and meditation with secret words and the threat of losing the capacity to hear the sounds if they are divulged, is similar to the scam.

Fear of losing, superstition and the desire to feel accepted and special prevent scams from being exposed.

[Nietzsche]

Hi Marina,
I feel very sorry for you when I read the story about your son. Makes me realize that we debate to harsh now and then, that in a way we are all the victims. My personal guess is that your son is probable looking after you more than BJ does.
About the concepts, I think it is very dangerous to let go of your concepts. Many of them are healthy and experience based. Why change them. If you let someone confuse you, you will loose the power to oppose them! Might that be the purpose? If BJ confuses your religious concepts than how are you ever going to be able to think different? To leave him? To me it sounds like a husband confusing his wife to make her stay forever and cook for him :) Just a dangerous metaphor :)
About the money. We don't judge but I get the feeling and have no time to explain the complete foundation, but Tara does, that he used the power and money he got at his disposal. And with that kind of money and power even I could make a lot more and there is still a risk that one day he will loose just as much as there is no guarantee with stock. As I understood it he even did loose a lot in bad deals but still there was so much that liquidating a companie paid of very much. But the general opinion seems to be that he is a smart business man and I give him that.
Take care!

[lulalake]

Brian in your post in the blog of May 3 2011 “Has Gurinder Singh revised Sant Mat to v. 3.0?”, you wrote, “Anyway - the point is - that older generation - from the 80's and earlier still don't understand that the teachings have been definately [sic] changed.”

I might disagree a bit. I self identify as an Ex-Satsangi having been initiated in the mid 1960’s and leaving in the later 70’s. It seems to me that we who have been associated with Sant Mat, have read prodigiously, have argued publicly and privately about the merits and demerits of Sant Mat, it’s Gurus and all that jazz may stand a greater chance of non-confusion when approaching Sant-Mat 2.0 and beyond than you posit.

What the wonderful Osho Robbins video you recently posted (“How Sant Mat is moving from duality to oneness”) is what more than a few of we Ex-Sats have been saying for some years and all I can say is WOO HOO the news is out!!

You wrote, “Some have suggested that this is what happens when a guru makes over $250 million while on the job. Being super-rich can people encourage to say how they really feel. However, it isn't possible to say with certainty what is causing Sant Mat to morph into version 3.0., I just like it better.”
Oh yes oh yes oh yes. I may have to re self-identify as a Satsangi if G.S keeps it up, not that he or anyone else would give a s***, but for me it a pretty big thing. Cheers
Jules

[spiritualseeker]

Worldly people think in worldly way,me,you,even master in his physical form has to come at our level to explain the things our way. otherwise we won't understand. The spiritual is beyond physical.Can't get it until that experience comes from within. This is not the path of argument. I pity everyone who falls into argument and takes oneself miles away from lord, the ALMIGHTY. Master is there to teach, we may follow or not, that choice is personal. BUT arguments, analysis, judgments won't lead anyone anywhere. So i would rather say thats all waste of time. Decide whatever you want to do, do that but don't put up things like this, this is waste of time for a person who really wants spiritual awakening.

[Blogger Brian]

spiritualseeker, how would you know the spiritual is beyond the physical? Aren't you still physical? Isn't your belief that the spiritual is beyond the physical just a concept that you've been told is true, yet you have no proof of this?

When you're not physical, when you have no working body or brain, and you still exist, then I'd believe that you're spiritual. But I assume a physical body typed out the blog comment you left, so you're still physical, aren't you?

I'm also curious about why, if you claim you want "spiritual awakening," and you say this blog is a waste of time for people like you, you're so interested in what's written here. Why aren't you meditating instead of surfing the Internet?

[Mike Williams]

Dear spiritualseeker,

How can you be sure some of the
people here have not surpassed the
stage of your Guru ?

Gurinder is a country bumpkin.

He doesn't have a remote clue.

Do you go to Al Capone for love ?

[spiritualseeker]

Thanks brian u make quite a sense in a statement when u say 'why aren't you meditating instead of surfing the Internet?' But to mind u i m just a seeker without being initiated to meditate. I m thankful to your blog to make me learn what to do and what not to. But still i have that much sense to understand the truth. My life is full of the things where in spite of being young and non-initiated i have realized the master in his radiant form through my ups and downs that has resulted in the faith. i haven't read many books but a few for that matter. Just you being initiated soul,i was wondering why you are being just so analytical and critic? And definitely when i would be initiated i would meditate rather than putting up futile efforts here to communicate with wandered souls. Thank you very much.

[osho robbins]

KARAN,
take a look at my videos - you are doing EXACTLY what I state on the videos.
ONENESS - a follower of sant mat 1.0 will say that THERE IS ONLY ONE means there is only one means non-duality. That duality is an illusion - that ONE is the only REALITY.
THE MASTER WILL NOT COME AT DEATH. Again you interpret this to mean that IF YOU DON'T MEDITATE - then the master MAY not come. You are taking it as a motivational statement - that Gurinder is saying there is no guarantee if you don't meditate.
Which, by the way, is totally contradictory from what Sawan said. Sawan said that I just wave from a distance (i.e. will not be a disciple of) a guru who does not come at death.
Karan writes:
4] The guru is a spiritual guide, not a savior
ans] This is obvious no perfect saint calls himself a saviour this the
mark of a perfect saint

AGAIN - this is complete nonsense. sant mat 1.0 has always considered GURU to be the saviour. You obviously have not read your SAR BACHAN. There are whole chapters on GURU BHAKTI. It states that without GURU you cannot be saved. What do you think the teaching about the guru coming at death is all about? That is called SAVING. i.e. SAVIOUR.
Unless you OPEN YOUR EARS and actually LISTEN to what Gurinder is saying - you are going to just hear what you want to hear.
Kawan writes:
(5) He says there are no regions - that Sach Khand does not exist -
neither does Sat Purush. He says they are levels of consciousness
ans]This is totaly wrong i havent heard such thing and yes higher
stages means higher consciousness he must have used consciousness to
explain inner journey to the westerners

COOL - go into denial. listen to my videos again. I am stating categorically and am going on record - that I have heard this because it was said to ME! PERSONALLY - no HEARSAY. You can quote me on it - that is why I have it on video. I am not hiding under some identity. Everyone knows who I am. I used to be a speaker for RSSB. They banned me because in their words "THEY NEED PARROTS". I told them I will not be a parrot.
RSSB speakers are PARROTS - they get training in HOW TO BE A PARROT. In other words - how to say what sant mat preaches.
RSSB is now clearly a RELIGION - just like any other religion. It's full of DOGMA and RITUALS. You have PREACHERS who have no first hand experience speaking on stage giving the illusion that they KNOW something. When in truth they know JACK SHIT (it's a technical term).
If you challenge them - they will tell you they are just doing the satsang from the scriptures.
Well Bulleh shah has a few things to say about that.
Kush Raula paya aalmaah - Kush kagazaah paya chaal.
which means - Those who have THEORIES are making a lot of NOISE, and the scriptures (he calls them papers) are confusing people.
What Bulleh Shah is saying is that unless you are ENLIGHTENED and can speak from your own truth - you are deluding people.
So all RSSB speakers are deluding others because they are giving out theoretial teachings as if they are the truth, and the followers believe them. That is conspiring to delude others.
If you don't know - be honest enough to say - I don't know - don't preach.

[spiritualseeker]

Mike, You don,t have even a little idea about what you have said..this is itself a proof that you have not surpassed the stage of my guru. And to tara,
Earlier i thought that people born out of India are very fortunate to get direct sessions with the master that can help them so directly to get the answers to questions of daily life. But after reading your post i feel much better that we think more positive even though not in direct communication with him. And to mind you the in Q&A sessions whatever he says is for individuals. You have to be smart enough to pick the lines. But Alas! many of us lack that ability to understand.

[spiritualseeker]

tara,
Its very good if u have understood the truth by your way mentioned above. Great, i counter the belief that real master doesn't play games. He do play lot n lot of games. And these games are so much so that they will take like your nerves out. I have seen these games played with me, my family. And most of them had been through times with totally shaken faith but a few who stood quiet in faith and the results seen were favorable. this all depends on how much you bear. Have you been through story of bhai maj in 'tales of the mystic east'. That shows how master plays games with disciple. And truth is not that simple. If it would have been, then people won't dedicate their lives finding the same. Humility, giving up, stepping down ego just marks that yes i need to find truth but truth is above all this. As far as Q&A are concerned, i haven't been through those sessions, but i have seen some videos and listened to all the audios of 'The Master Charan Singh' he isn't that straightforward in answering questions and many of them he won't even answer and i m damn sure that many answers are not even understood coz he is Boss and he can make you go through anything. If that is wrong or right we are no one to decide. It requires a lot of patience to realize that, the patience that would almost burn you out. This is not easy path, one realizes only when one follows.
Regards everyone

[tAo]

spiritualseeker says:
"Master Charan Singh' he isn't that straightforward in answering questions and many of them he won't even answer and i m damn sure that many answers are not even understood coz he is Boss and he can make you go through anything. If that is wrong or right we are no one to decide."

-- man, you are sooo lost. if you are not the one who decides, then who the hell is? wake up and get out of that dis-empowered lame-brained state of mind. its YOUR life, so live it. quit letting other people decide and tell you how and what to think.

[spiritualseeker]

Tao,
If you are so much boss of yourself, where arises the need for asking questions? forget the answers, their meaning and everything that follows. I don't think you have ever been on this path. I you have been at some point of time then I would ask you why? If you haven't been then its my request that don't raise questions or comments on my post.
thank you very much.

[tAo]

spiritualseeker,

obviously, you are confused. i didn't ask you any questions. other commenters asked you questions. i also didn't say anthing about being a "boss". you implied that you think you are not the one who makes the decisions in your life. so i simply said that you are "lost" and "dis-empowered", because you indicated that you feel that are not the one who should "decide" (in your life).

as for "being on the path"... fyi (since apparently you are not aware of it), i've had more than 30 years experience on the path of RS sant mat. and furthermore, this is a blog comment forum, so therefore i am free to raise any questions or comments that i want to. if you don't want other people to direct comments or questions to you, then don't post comments. your narrow perspective is not my problem.

[Chappie]

I do not consider myself to be a Satsangi in any real sense, even though I was Initiated by Charan Singh in 1989. I've not attended Satsang in many years. I cannot claim any spiritual attainment of my own either.

I do know this though. Charan Singh came to fetch my mother at her death. He appeared to her on her last day early in the morning and said "Sister, it is time to go. You need to put your house in order". My mother told this to my sister that morning, which made us both week at the knees when she relayed the story to me.

My mom had not come home from a visit to the Dr and we were getting more and more worried by this cryptic message. My mother never came home that day. My mother had an 8 hr forewarning of her death ( at the age of 38). She was not a fanatical Satsangi at all. She never went to satsang and was not very strict with the principles. She had been initiated for almost 20 yrs, but had done almost no meditation.

I only write this here, as an example of a RSSB teaching that manifest as a truth in my family. It is reassuring to know, that even if you leave the path completely, if it does turn out to be a true path, you haven't lost. We are all free to explore any path we choose in this life and in any sequence. The Masters have also said this many times. I see this life as a great adventure of discovery and we are the captains of our own ships.

Bon voyage.

[Marina]

Chappie,

thank you for sharing your experience.
I am a satsangi but by my own standards - not a very good one.

What is reassuring to me is, that no matter who I see as my guru, be it BJ, my husband, myself, my grandson :), my friends, these fellow bloggers, the books I have read, the experiences I have had(not in the spiritual realm,) life in general, it all doesn't matter. Life is my lesson and guru.
It is all ok, all ok.

I shall have fun playing captian of this ship :)))

Thanks again.....

Marina

[kitty]

So would you say that sant mat is another part of the matix programme designed to keep people locked in another paradigm of thinking instead of them thinking for themselves?

Like David Icke has mentioned we all are infinite consciousness so we dont need to bow down to any guru or look for instruction from anyone else because we are already infinite and at one within ourselves.

Maybe Gurinder Singh has also realised this which is why he has changed his teachings. I mean to come out and say that there we are all gods (in the sense we have our own power) is exactly what David Icke and George kavassilas have been saying all along.

Does anyone know where this revised version of sant mat can be found. It interesting to review the before and now versions!

[Little LouLou]

Kitty,

If I remember correctly, GDS and Charan both maintained that we are all the same, and the same means we are all "in the making". (Of course I do not know if I believe all of that or not.) Anyhow, perhaps it is a matter of maturity? And meditation supposedly brings a powerful focus which lends clarity. Or so they say. I suspect I know nothing, and remember even less....I've been looking for my car keys for the last 2 hours and needed a break.

David Icke? Oh dear. (smack forehead)

The "revised version" is just speculation. I was at the Dera in Feb., and it sure didn't sound revised to me! Esp. the Sunday satsang where he speaks and it is translated. Blow you out of your cushion. Give me that ol' time religion....da da.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Little Loulou,

I first talked to David Icke about 8 years ago,
when he contacted me to link my
web site off his, as a recomendation
to his subscribers.

I was amazed at his knowledge of the occult.

The conversation we had was remarkable.

It related to Dark Forces on the earth.

He fully understands world history has
been completely determined by highly
occult groups and people. That
history does not happen the way we
have been told it has.

[sukhvir]

i m happy to know that u hv much information about Satsang.....but u r doing sinful actions on santmat.
i want to tell u jst 1 thing :
little knowledge is a bad thing...
do simran & u will come 2 knw who HE is????

[A Typical Follower]

Sukhvir,

What are SINFUL ACTIONS? Talking freely and discussing are sinful?

You say little knowledge is a bad thing. I agree.

Which is why I suggest you INCREASE your own knowledge about sant mat.

Read outside of just what RS tells you. You might discover you've been living in a rabbit hole.

Doing simran will not show you anything.

Let me ask you plainly - what has simran done for you?

[lokesh]

after going thru all such posts and comments, I have got pretty sure that evry1 hs ds curiousity to search fr his existence , gods' existence ... So many doubts are raising in ppls' mind reagarding diffrnt versions frm beas satsang but i really do not understnd why none of you try to go to root of the matter. Find out whr Radhasoami mat actually begun from, what soami ji maharaj actly said abt diffrnt sects and trust me , real curiousity will not go waste. Pick up the original books written by founder of radhasoami mat Soamiji maharaj Himself... Radhasoami to all of you !

[PB]

Brian, Brian, again. I read your post. I see a little bias. What you're quoting in v1, v2 and v3, I don't find any inconsistencies. They are different ways to explain the same thing. You will find teachers telling different answers to different disciples. Am I missing something here? Does that mean that there are 3,500 versions of Zen, just because the teacher can talk to different disciples or in different situations in different ways?

I think that you can use these words to argue for or against any point you would like. You're just choosing one side, and in my opinion there may be brighter side to take. That's it. Are the words different? Absolutely. Does that mean there has been any change? I don't see that.

I learned about sant mat relatively recently, but have seen some of the books. I don't see any inconsistency in what you're quoting, what I've heard BJ say, and what's in the books. But if I really wanted to look for inconsistencies I would probably find some, even it means using any argument to do it, an using it any way to suit my purpose, whatever it is (like a proficient gutter inspector would).

[Blogger Brian]

PB, your last paragraph betrays your lack of familiarity with Sant Mat teachings as expressed in the RSSB literature. I've very familiar with these books, at least those published up until 2005 or so, when I stopped buying new publications.

But the "classic" books that supposedly reflect the timeless, unchanging, spiritually scientific teachings of the RSSB line of gurus -- those I'm very much familiar with.

I've read each cover to cover, sometimes multiple times. In the course of writing a book under RSSB auspices, "Life is Fair," I took copious computer-organized notes on the core aspects of the teachings, gleaning quotations from all of the RSSB publications.

I also gave talks (satsangs) often for at least twenty years and served as secretary of our local group (sangat) for more years than I can remember (seems like forever...).

So your statement that Gurinder Singh's current take on Sant Mat is the same as the previous gurus, going back to the founder of RSSB (Jaimal Singh) doesn't ring true.

Gurinder Singh has backed off from several key claims that used to be core pieces of RSSB dogma. For example: the guru is God in human form; the guru is perfect in every respect; the guru meets disciples in his radiant form at the time of death; Sant Mat is the only way for someone to return to God, other religions being limited by comparison.

The change is striking for those, like me, who have been intimately involved with RSSB from 1970 or thereabouts. We know the classic RSSB literature; we know how Charan Singh presented the teachings; we know how leading disciples who spoke about the teachings while Charan Singh sat approvingly next to them presented Sant Mat.

So, no, it isn't true that Gurinder Singh's Sant Mat is the same as the old Sant Mat.

Of course, since Gurinder Singh doesn't allow tape recordings, and hasn't written any books, it is difficult to make a word for word comparison. But there's plenty of evidence from people who have heard Gurinder Singh speak to know that his version of Sant Mat is 2.0, if not 3.0.

[Mungos]

Quote Brian:So your statement that Gurinder Singh's current take on Sant Mat is the same as the previous gurus, going back to the founder of RSSB (Jaimal Singh) doesn't ring true.

...But Brian i also heard David Lane who is also long time SM follower that it seems to him that nothing really changed. So iguess again many different views...

[Mike Williams]

i Mungos,
Brian is correct. This has been happenning for many years.

The problem is all the old books.

He needs to get rid of everything and
start over with his history and philosophy.

Gurinder is becomming politically correct.

Many of the old timers don't understand
the new logic and parrot the old stuff.

Beas is like a charging elephant.

Te charging elephant cannot be stopped
with force.

The elephant will only stop from an
outstretched hand ... with a peanut
in it.

(Or, a sexy female elephant ?)

The problem is, Gurinder has no peanut
to give his people.

He is taking everything away and
leaving them to stand on their own two feet.

It will take decades for the new logic
to sink in.

[Account Deleted]

PB
you really made very good points and good posts,but for this bloggers of this blog,it would not be required,because they are accessing on public domain,but with their private individualism and their limited understanding.

They say that master than changed the teachings,
well how limited is their understanding towards santmat,in which they said had spent their half lives,i just wonder,it seems they spent half lives sleeping ,and being dumb in santmat,

well these guys says teachings has have been changed from the time of jaimal singh ji,
how innocent these guys are,
they have not noticed onething,
teachings always keep on changing,because the mindset of people,the whole world changes,
so to make them understand,they we need to change the methods to make understand.
Its happened everytime,
if teachings would have remained ONE,they why we would have so much Masters,
What is the need of having so many masters,
every master teachings according to the time,

i already proved osho robbins interpretation of santmat 1.0 and 2.0 is wrong,
but then they do not understand.

because the goal of this blog,is blindfolded.
Just ignore and be reverse to all RS disciples.

Brian,may be was never a good disciple in his life,
thats the reason he never had real inner experience,
if at all he would have been always true to the path,
he would have never pointed out finger on his own master,
but he did,and his action shows,he never was a good disciple.

though brian is intelligent,knowledgeable but now everything is wrong in negative side for brian,
there are no versions in santmat,
i once again repeat few points of version
Osho said,
is my god here?
master said even my god is here,

now we have already read santmat books,that the real master is radiant form,
the real god is light and sound,
and we all have the light and sound inside me,
now because osho lacked enough knowledge he asked the question to the master,

now what he said,
Even my "god" is here,so true,the radiant form of everyone is there,
but osho because he has very very limited knowledge,could not understand this simple kid stuff.

and charging money to teach spirituality.
in which osho himself is illiterate.
And mike what you always say is completely incorrect,
why dont you guy update with correct knowledge and come and then post,
or else get some medication from a doctor for your physco behaviours.

Teaching of saints never change,
but yes the mind set of the disciple do change,
and for the sake of disciples master has to do changes,
so they can understand better.

But anyways Brian would even have commented and created many versions,if at all the santmat would have remained same,
if something remain same,they call it boring.
and if something get changed,they call it duality,in spite of being the fact that change happened purposely.

But then another question?
When brian was not able to understand the version 1.0 how come he can understand the rest of versions.???
the answer is simple,
brian has not understood santmat at all,so he is free to have as many versions and views he can have.

it will neither help him or others.

the blog will turn out to be just a good read,but no deed.

[Catherine]

Mike, firstly it's my opinion that GS is a guru who has no power to give or take. I suppose that's what you mean by 'peanut'! He is still giving darshan and initiation which is hardly teaching people to stand on their own feet. He also refers to himself when he speaks as if he is a chiding father-type with his disciples as his little children. This approach is very different to the one you are refering to where he gets folk to stand on their own two feet. He's lucky to have a nice deep voice and the insight to answer immediately as if he is an authority.

I have been chuckling about your comment that he should throw out the old history and philosophy- that would of course include the meditation technique and the teaching of the music that pulls and purifies. He shows no intention of doing such.

He knows to end his question and answer session as soon as his audience starts fidgeting and that's quite soon after it begins.

People stand on their own two feet because they see through it all and have no choice but to do so.

[Betty]

Tara --- that is what I see as well; perhaps too the contradictions are intended (seemingly) to throw the mind onto a quandary to loosen it's grip on it's intellectual certainty ----- that can try and replace meditational experiences with mere articles of faith. The presupposition here though is that those meditational experiences prove that there is a soul and that the soul lives on after death of the body. Most people want to believe and that does not change much.

[Catherine]

The words 'revolutionary' or 'progressive' do not come to mind after listening to GS.

' Paternalistic' and 'Mesolithic'are most appropriate.

[rahul]

well u said that master Gurinder singh says that master do not come after death.. u forgot one thin ova hea is dat.. he says if u don medidate 2 n 1/2 hour a day.. den in end its the wish of the master weather he comes or not. So heaz a proof of this as in ANURAG SAGARVAANI.. a holy book of saint kabir. he says that he promised to KAAL that if a soul initiated by a true saint.. do not perform the wae her master told her.. den KAAL can take awae that soul with him..!!

[Mungos]

quote rahul:

a holy book of saint kabir. he says that he promised to KAAL that if a soul initiated by a true saint.. do not perform the wae her master told her.. den KAAL can take awae that soul with him..!!

Mungos: Oh grown up.

quote rahul:
well u said that master Gurinder singh says that master do not come after death.. u forgot one thin ova hea is dat.. he says if u don medidate 2 n 1/2 hour a day.. den in end its the wish of the master weather he comes or not.

Mungos: You totaly missed with this. Where is the need for anybody to come if everything is there already.

quote rahul:
he says if u don medidate 2 n 1/2 hour a day.. den in end its the wish of the master weather he comes or not.

Mungos: and now you will belive this for 30 years and than you will realize that you lived for 30 years with your false belive

[Mungos]

No need to understand It is understood by IT self.

[Lynn Priestley]

Oh dear, all these comments are so disrespectful and untrue. I would like it to be known that Baba Gurinder Singh Ji is a Perfect Master and this breaks my heart to read. But they don't know what they are doing. I have been initiated by Huzur Charan and follow Baba Gurinder, I am white British. I was priviledged to be initiated by a perfect Master and I give thanks every day <3

[Aloe]

Sant Mat
It may help you to do a little exercise before you read this. Say a few multiplication tables, such as 3x3=9 and 4x4=16, etc. It puts the mind in a nice, logical mode. The emotions subside. This will help if anyone has a strong, emotional reaction to what I have written. I try to just state facts and events as clearly and as accurately as possible.
Having said that, I always feel a deep sadness when I come to this site, as so very many souls are crossing to a very lonely side. 5x5=25.
I have fond memories of the Sant Mat that used to be, as well as regret. The Path was more connected to its Sikh roots, back then. There were Bhandaras commemorating the death days of saints and potlucks. You could keep Christ in your heart. You could listen to stories from people’s experiences at the Dera. But that does not help to keep the guru’s image, for if we discuss things, then we will figure things out. Is this why potlucks are no longer allowed?
Hindu thought pervades so much of Western culture, now. Hindu thought lives with nonsense. Read Karma Kola for an inside view into Hinduism and the attitude of gurus and their haughty attitude towards the West.
Gurinder said at the Dera that the wheel of 84, (transmigration of souls) means that you go back to the beginning. In other words, if you do not dedicate this human life to serving the guru and make progress in meditation, you will go back to the beginning of the transmigration cycle. You will inhabit a tree and work your way up from there. Sant Mat leads you to believe it is reincarnation, soul traveling from human body to human body, which it teaches, at least at first. Well, there is a little transmigration addition to that story. Effective brainwashing subverts little by little. A tape recording would destroy the gradual subversion.
Do you think that Moses did not know that God contradicted paganism when he wrote the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible? That is why Genesis starts out with the snake and the apple illustration. All the pagan religions surrounding the Jews in those days said that religion was human effort to attain the knowledge to realize God and become God (or gods.) The Jews were the first to listen to God who revealed that He is the one who reaches down and uplifts mankind. He also reveals that He is in a long battle with the egoists that think that they can do it on their own. God told His people to be distinct from all these other religions, to stand in contradiction to worldliness and be a separate people. The leader of these egoist warriors is named Satan. He is also known as Lucifer, or the light of knowledge. Peter and Paul warn that he can appear as a being of light and trick people into following him. That is why we are advised to test the spirits with the Name of Jesus. His name. Not some root words mantra.
Think about it. Who gives the final even score? It is not possible because the one delivering the final score incurs karma. It is not true that indifference in attitude results in negation of karma (action). If someone does not care about stealing that watermelon and steals it, that watermelon is still gone, just as if he did care about stealing it! Perhaps the shop keeper forgives the thief, but the results, the consequences, are still there. The watermelon is gone and something must be done to make up for that, like penance. There are a lot of former Catholics following Sant Mat. Well, I will take what you threw away!
It disturbs me to see how much alike the world’s religions seem to gradually becoming. An elderly Indian woman told me years ago that Soami ji, the founder of Sant Mat, (the one thing all Sant Mat groups agree upon is who their founder is!) used to travel with his wife Radha from village to village. He would teach the people by singing Shabs, or hymns and speaking. Radha would dance while he was doing this, illustrating his teachings with those lovely expressions and hand motions which East Indian dancers do. Now everyone from Baptists to Sant Mat, to meditation groups, to Buddhists to Catholics to Lutherans have large, rather ugly meeting halls, a stage, songs alternating with lectures and large screens projecting the speakers to the back of the theater seats. Every denomination seems to have its “contemporary” service, or youth service, The outer “worship” is becoming similar from church to synagogue to meditation hall.
What is more disturbing is that the teachings are becoming similar. God loves everyone and wants everyone to love one another. God is the God of all religions. The supernatural is merely stories to illustrate some moral or humanitarian truth. The seven loaves and fishes did not really multiply in a miracle, people were generous and started sharing their sack lunches they had brought with them with everyone else. Jesus was teaching that it is good to share. The real supernatural is your own self-realization leading to God-realization. This is not the supernatural, miracle laden Gospels, illustrated for a thousand years in European art. It is something else.
Maybe everyone needs to purchase a four year old level toy, where one tries to put a round peg in a round hole and a square peg in a square hole. Or a star shape in a star shaped hole, etc. Sit down with it and try your best to put a star shape in a round hole. Really experience and thusly convince yourself that the star shape really will not fit in the round hole. It only fits in the star shaped hole. Now sit down with a pencil and paper and try to fit an angel (spiritual being) from a heavenly realm telling the Virgin Mary that she will become impregnated by the Holy Spirit, like about now, and give birth to God clothed with the flesh of her child. Try over and over again to fit that statement over the statement that a vision came to Mary as a result of her own meditation telling her that her first born child, who will be conceived in the normal manner, will be one of the many great spiritual teachers in the world. Try very hard to make both these statements the same. Try really hard to fit each statement into each other. Don’t give up until you really experience and convince yourself that it is not possible to reconcile these two statements with each other and make them the same thing. If you can accomplish this little exercise, then you are on the way to discovering the truth about almost everything.
The acceptance of harsh immorality in our society and the para-military actions of police also upset me a great deal. Where is the moral strength, the self-reliance and independence, the importance and sanctity of the family, the formality of a dinner attractively served with food slow cooked and made from scratch and the graciousness towards guests in one’s home? Where is the father, the lord of his castle-home, respected by the local policeman? Where is the control over the doctors, who now decide for you what is not their business? Where is the control over where our hard earned money is going, as we take home less and less of it, in exorbitant taxes? Where is real food, unadulterated by genetic engineering and insecticides? Is the Dera a model experiment to see how people adapt to such a neo-feudal village, a sort of mutual concoction between religion and government, such as The Sustainable Prince would like to see established, or am I being just too far fetched? I honestly do not know the answer to that one, though it is an interesting idea. The Dera is setting up a library intended to be the most extensive in the world on the subject of all the world’s religions. Why?
The newer Sant Mat books use a more global type of language, such as “people” for “mankind”. The language is also more blunt, less of the old graciousness. It is light and sound, gone the term refulgence of the Lord. Maybe they do not even say satsangi anymore. Maybe they just say disciples. Maybe they are not satsangs anymore. Maybe they are just meetings about truth! The older books cause a problem because maybe the advice given was meant only for that individual and not for everyone. But maybe people ask too many questions about specific people and groups mentioned in the older books, which have left the Dera-Beas group.
The guru’s reason for not being taped is that people have the opportunity to meet him face to face at the Satsang Centers all over the world, so there is little need for tapes. Also, it stops misquotes. It also allows the guru to communicate an issue to his Representatives which may come up during a Dera Western meeting before any do-gooder satsangis talk about it prematurely. This has happened. Of course, the guru is also not accountable for saying anything as no one can prove he actually said it!
Here is another quote that Gurinder made at a Western Satsang Center. When someone tearfully asked him where her fiancee had gone when he died, (of alcoholism! He also was among those of the much married) Gurinder said “What? Find him among all those souls?” Then, after a bit of hesitation, he said, “He is with the Lord.” My my, the drunks and near bigamists go to be with the Lord. There are no jails to keep the criminals out in guru heaven.
When another asked ifs he would see her satsangi relatives after she died, Gurinder said “No. The connection will be broken” This is lovingkindness? Broken connections? When someone referred to him as God at the Dera, he said that he was not. He said Jesus and everyone else had to work hard at meditating to advance to the spiritual realms. He said Jesus taught the same teaching as every other holy person. Funny that the entire Bible throughout, Old and New Testements, states clearly that God’s message is unique from all the other pagan holy men’s methods. Both the guru and the Bible cannot be correct, unless you are a Hindu, of course.
Why is it so important for the guru’s to debunk Jesus and turn him into one of them? Why the attack? If Jesus was so much like the gurus, then why don’t they just ignore Him? Jesus seems to have impacted all the religions of the entire world.

[Mike Williams]

" Both the guru and the Bible cannot be correct, unless you are a Hindu, of course.
quote Aloe

If you said unless you were Radhasoami
Beas based, you would hit the target
exactly. Faquir Chand's guru even included
Mohammed in the Saint list. M.. condoned
homosexuality of old men with young boys.

[TWINKLE NANDA]

ALL OF YOU IF ATTACH WITH SIMRAN OF GOD,
EXEPT COMMENTING ON MY LORD(BABA JI)
THEN YOU SHALL REACH IN HEAVEN(SACH KHAND)&
YOU CAN REALIZI THE TRUTH THAT EVERYONE IS GOD.............

[Avi]

TWINKLE NANDA,

Have you yourself reached Sach khand? I am assuming that you do simran regularly because you are "advising" others to do the same. Also, are you sure if Heaven and Sach khand are same - as you seem to be suggesting?

[Avi]

In response to Aloe's comment of September 27, 2012 made at 12:02 PM, I am afraid that I read your lengthy comment only today, but I must say that I really enjoyed reading it thoroughly.

In my opinion, it seems completely logical that the real reason behind GSD not wanting to be taped is that he does not not want to be held accountable for being inconsistent by saying anything he wants to say - sometimes keeping the audience in mind and sometimes not even that. He just wants to ensure that no one can ever prove what he actually said. As Brian has also noted earlier, the very fact that he seldom writes anything and does not even allow taking notes of his talks also points in that direction.

[G]

Avi,

I'm going to the national satsang (UK) next week, I'll purchase sunglasses which have secret video recording capacity in them. I will then send it over to you bloggers.

Lol

[Avi]

Tara,

I have lived in India for many years, but for the last few years I have been living in the U.S.

Thanks for offering to share your e-mail id with me and I really look forward to be in touch with you through e-mail also.

[nietzsche]

Yes and the only way to hear him is to go to the satsangs but if you can not for some medical reason than it does not bother him. He could have made tapes for these people.

[Gerrard]

You should take into consideration on how this discussion is exclusively performed by North Americans. In fact its a good blog to explore out how Americans raised in a Trigger Happy culture react and discuss amongst themselves when they are "impelled/forced" to engange/confront themselves with foreign cultural concepts on a deep and profound emotional and psychological level. Good blog to observe how The profane American psyche reacts to ancient old mystical teachings... 1.0, 2.0 3.3. 4.5, 5.5. What is being said about SantMat says more about the person who says it rather than 'SantMat' itself. Im French and I have to tell you that half of the arguments in here in a French context would be disregarded (pointless jargon) and the other half as somewhat interesting sociologically . The path is the meditation and simran/mantra, the guru is the sound within and the teacher is the physical guru outside. Nothing more to it.

[Blogger Brian]

Gerrard, actually there's something more to it...

Whether the path, the meditation, the sound within, the inner teacher-- all this is TRUE.

[Avi]

Gerrard,

Just to be doubly sure before commenting on your comment, I just re-read this post along with all the comments that have been made.

1. In my view, it has so far been a very healthy and wonderful discussion, and I am pretty sure that the participants are at least from three countries of the world - India, U.K. and, of course, North America. So, I fail to understand as to what really made you conclude that, "this discussion is exclusively performed by North Americans"?

2. You say, "Im French and I have to tell you that half of the arguments in here in a French context would be disregarded (pointless jargon) and the other half as somewhat interesting sociologically."

Could you please be a bit more elaborate and give some specific examples of the two categories of arguments from the post and/or comments? It will help if you also provide your own arguments for classifying a particular argument in one or the other category.

Thanks!

[gerrard]

Avi,

I have no time nor the desire to give u specific examples. Its something u should take the responsibility for and answer on ur own.

G

[Jane]

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/anthropology/people/academic_staff/m_holbraad/Papers/Holb_Pr_2007a_-_InnAs_perspectivism.pdf

[mairang]

Guru of Radhasoami Satsang is a bastard metaphorically. He cannot travel in India without high police security. He is a property dealer. He has thousands of acres of land in India. And he is tring to steal m ore from poor people.

[John]

It would appear that Gurinder is doing a great service to his followers, the new style Teachings are not new, they were delivered by Lord Krishna 5000 years back and are the source and destination of all religions, sects, paths and so on

Go Gurinder

[sachin]

What's so new about these teachings ?
Ishwar Puri, an initiate of Sawan Singh has always preached the same.

It's my humble request you see :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2WpRydl514

AT 2:30:00, He says "I TOLD THAT MAN , THAT MIND CREATES EVERYTHING, DOESN'T MIND CREATE MASTER ALSO? OFCOURSE, THE MIND CREATES IT. Don't think master outside is really the totality of consciousness. The real master is always with us"

[mike williams]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26LYjMww0GY

[No]

Never trust a hippy!
https://youtu.be/Twz_2Buh3GI

[777]

-
-
It just depends of where our own concentration ( interest ) is
Marvellous !!
There are many levels and he is in/on all these levels ( for a rssb initiated )

Please love your Master more than God :-)
he is the soup, the spoon and your hunger
the Sound stream, the words and our desire

777

-

[777]

I enjoyed a very nice dinner in Ishwar's parents dera house
Sawan , yes . . initiated some young children into the First Region (sphere of consciousness )

777

-

It's awesome all these sub_sub_groups like the Malaysian SuperGuru
They all promote vegetarism which is the Alpha & Omega of God striving
Wow Brian for still being VG

777

-

[Lance]

Brian, As all men of divinity and not, have a free will of their own, it is for all of us to reason out with our intuition if there is ultimate worth in their words or if they are allowing their ego to have its input, it reminds me of some wise words that I once read,
THE LORD BUDDHA HAS SAID
that we must not believe in a thing said merely because it is said; nor traditions
because they have been handed down from antiquity; nor rumors, as such; nor
writings by sages, because sages wrote them: nor fancies that we may suspect to have
been inspired in us by a Deva (that is, in presumed spiritual inspiration); nor from
inferences drawn from some haphazard assumption we may have made; nor because
of what seems an analogical necessity; nor on the mere authority of our teachers or
masters. But we are to believe when the writing, doctrine, or saying is corroborated
by our own reason and consciousness. "For this," says he in concluding, "I taught you
not to believe merely because you have heard, but when you believed of your
consciousness, then to act accordingly and abundantly."

We have all been given "free will" to believe what we choose and we should all choose wisely.

[Pranav]

I think advaita vedanta is the best.