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May 11, 2011


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Because, strangely but so simply so, GOD cannot be reached merely by "going in" is because the objective fullness of GOD is outside! What is inside is our own stuff and IT'S relation to GOD, Karmic Lords etc. It is purely subjective in the sense its personal to us. Rudolf Steiner discusses this quite nicely, sincerely and as a knowledgeable spiritual researcher. Its really quite interesting and thought provoking.

Janya, that makes sense to me -- that our relation to God (I prefer the term "ultimate reality") is purely subjective. No one else can know what we feel, not really. Not about God, not about food, not about music, not about anything. Feeling is us, our own, our private subjective world.

Like you said, outside is where objectivity lies. Not perfect objectivity, because our attempts to understand the world objectively are made by people with those above-mentioned subjective feelings. But on the whole, it seems true that there's an objective shared world, and a subjective personal world.

Indeed, thinking, feeling and willing are all three, private states of being.

And just like the external, objective world is shared, the internal subjective world is also sharable, even across time and space. Such is the case with my description in the controversial post; a descriptive in common with Heraclitus and Faqir Chand;personalities who I knew absolutely nothing decades ago,when this occurred.

The point is, that this is evidence of an objective, verifiable, shared inner/subjective experience/world even across time and space.

There is also another world wide phenomenon that cuts across time and space called the Old Hag Syndrome. Sleeping persons sense a sinister and inquisitive presence near them but they are unable to move or cry for help, but can smell,hear and taste. The "presence" is described by many as a demonic looking old hag. The British and Anglophones called it the nightmare spirit.

What can we conclude from this? This, that we share,even in the subjective realm common verifiable experiences and imagery which can be objectively described. That the subjective world, can be objective as well in various ways. But Is there any reality to this or is it just a "dream?" Just get the Old Hag to visit!

"The point is, that this is evidence of an objective, verifiable, shared inner/subjective experience/world even across time and space."

---explain in detail, the evidence that you are claiming. How would one know that there is sharing? Sounds like more honest sincere babble. Janya, you seem OK. All this is No Big Deal.


Could you write something on a mental imagine of an objective reality, say a chevy pickup truck. We can all visually picture and subjectively expericence such a truck at a Chevrolet dealership. Then, what would be a shared objective, INNER, subjective experience? Why any better than an outer subjective experience?


I understand your confusion, however I deplore your over use of the word "Babble." Please explain what you mean by "sincere babble?" Presenting information to make a point is NOT BABBLE.

Also, before I start presenting evidence, please explain what you mean by "All this is no big deal." What exactly are you referring to? Please stop babbling and be specific, so that I may answer you clearly.

If you are referring to the The Old Hag Syndrome, the Old Hag is not sincere babble. It is a well known and well documented fact. Do you want me to pull up references on the Old Hag Syndrome prior to the 18th century or the 20th or the 19th? As well as those closer to our time? And then match up the description and the sensations of the experience itself to demonstrate that these sleepers have "Shared" a common experience, in their respective, subjective worlds? If this is proven, then does this not show that there is some type and level of OBJECTIVE REALITY, EVEN IN THE SUBJECTIVE WORLD?

oh, I just realized that you are wondering why I making a bid deal about the subjective and objective worlds, is that it? I am doing this because I am responding to what Brian said earlier,

"But on the whole, it seems true that there's an objective shared world, and a subjective personal world."

Roger, I want to explain that the subjective world is not exclusively subjective, that several people can have the same or almost similar "script" or "drama" manifest itself to them. These people then have a "shared objective experience." This is an indication that the personal world is not all that personal, since there is something "outside" the experiencers' themselves that is making itself known to them. This something from "outside" or lets say "external" to each, binds them into itself by showing itself to them. Thus,the external thing is the objective reality in the subjective world.

Now about the evidence to support the objective reality of an experience I had, Faqir Chand exactly says what I said in the following sentence: "Now what I feel is that there is One, Infinite, Supermost Element. From it, when it moves, sound and light come out and from that light and sound this creation takes place. Cosmic rays and many other types of rays come out of this light and sound and all this gross matter is made. So it is the Will of that Supreme Power. EVERYTHING IS OOZING OUT OF IT AND MERGING BACK INTO IT."

The Unknowing Sage The Life and Work of Baba Faqir Chand - Chapter 4

Now, I said my experience of the "SUBSTANCE" was that it was OOZING OUT, out of the pores of a membrane type firmament that, it was coming out of and was the substance coming from ANOTHER source/being that was cut from the area I was experiencing with some type of pore like membrane firmament.

This in itself may not mean much or nothing at all to anyone, but for someone who has "been there", the fact that another person, in this case Baba Faqir Chand, says the same thing/ describes the Supreme Being, as I have, is comforting to me, because it validates my experience,which I know means nothing to anyone else, except to Heraclitus and Faqir Chand who claim to have the same description of the "Supreme Being."

Please don't be condescending, as if I was a 2 year old showing off my first writing of the alphabet to a jealous big brother. This is not why I brought it up on this forum. And frankly now, I would like to have it removed. Brian, I hope you will do so.
The reason I brought it up here is because the WORD is the Logos (Stoics, Heraclitus), is the Naam, is in the Christian Bible. There is a GOD, there is an "ULTIMATE REALITY" and to not know so, is a travesty. That Gurinder would deny this is shocking to me, especially since their whole belief system is built on Naam/Shabd.

Of-course there is no lack of spiritual experiences that a person might have. Usually they are personal and subjective and meaningless to anyone else, EXCEPT when they are used as confirmatory devices; which I understand is often done, even by Gurus and 'Masters".

End Babble please. I don't have the time. But if you still don't understand, please do note back.

a shared objective, INNER, subjective experience? Why any better than an outer subjective experience?

By a "shared objective,inner, subjective experience, I mean that there is something EXTERNAL to the experiencers, an object, an objective reality that is making itself known to each individual experiencer who is essentially in the/their individual subjective realm/state but because of the EXTERNALITY manifesting to them, even if on an individual subjective basis, is placing them in a SHARED OBJECTIVE (verifiable) EXPERIENCE. The object is external to them. It is now in each individual. The object is the same. It is the authenticity of subjective experience that has been validated (by the external object manifesting in each person) as now constituting an experience (shared) of an Objective occurance/Objective reality (not just a subjective experience of some thing by just the one individual)

Such an experience IS NO BETTER THAN AN OUTER OBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE. An inner one usually has to do with non-material objects, entities etc.

"By a "shared objective,inner, subjective experience, I mean that there is something EXTERNAL to the experiencers, an object, an objective reality that is making itself known to each individual experiencer who is essentially in the/their individual subjective realm/state but because of the EXTERNALITY manifesting to them, even if on an individual subjective basis, is placing them in a SHARED OBJECTIVE (verifiable) EXPERIENCE. The object is external to them. It is now in each individual. The object is the same. It is the authenticity of subjective experience that has been validated (by the external object manifesting in each person) as now constituting an experience (shared) of an Objective occurance/Objective reality (not just a subjective experience of some thing by just the one individual)"

----What would be this external object manifesting in each person? This object can engage in validating? How is this process done?

"This in itself may not mean much or nothing at all to anyone, but for someone who has "been there", the fact that another person, in this case Baba Faqir Chand, says the same thing/ describes the Supreme Being, as I have, is comforting to me, because it validates my experience,which I know means nothing to anyone else, except to Heraclitus and Faqir Chand who claim to have the same description of the "Supreme Being."

----Janya, have you experienced directly the Supreme Being? What is your description?

Dear Sir Roger,

You ask: What would be this external object manifesting in each person? This object can engage in validating? How is this process done?

My response: The "external Object" is specific to each particular event. I don't know what it or they will be! I am not GOD! The OBJECT does not validate

anything. It just shows up. There can be infinite "objects"/"manifestations"/"scripts"/"dramas". There is NO process. Nothing needs to be done. This is about people

who have similar experiences, real material events, spiritual events, visions etc. (Its simple. Not as complicated as you are thinking it is.)

Explanatory Scenario

You, Roger have some extraordinary, event happen in your life, material or spiritual or other. Then, 20 years later you run into someone who has had the same exact

event, complete with details or some KEY distinctive features; communication, mandate, request whatever. Then you meet someone else and someone else, the

number of people is not important but the concept is. Lets say you were drowning. You suddenly begin to see every event in your life, starting from the present

moment (in complete clarity, and with deeper understanding and feelings for the people involved with you)all the way to the moment of your physical birth. Like a

movie rolling backwards. Now, you know nothing about this reverse playback, until this ACTUALLY happened to you. Later you meet others who testify to the

same event. Now, rather than your lone, subjective experience, this event (call it what you will) has OBJECTIVE validity; Its verifiable, that is. So, the phenomenon

legitimately and lawfully be called "Object".

You wonder:
"This in itself may not mean much or nothing at all to anyone, but for someone who has "been there", the fact that another person, in this case Baba Faqir Chand, says

the same thing/ describes the Supreme Being, as I have, is comforting to me, because it validates my experience,which I know means nothing to anyone else, except

to Heraclitus and Faqir Chand who claim to have the same description of the "Supreme Being."

Janya, have you experienced directly the Supreme Being? What is your description?

My answer: Yes. I have experienced "A" Supreme Being whom I believe is the SUBSTANCE of a higher than it, SUPREME BEING.

I will not tell you more, until you apologize and Brian too for the insult. Say you guys are sorry.

I have already sanctified this blog by my initial description of the LOGOS. For some reason, I have been led to do this here. Maybe there are people here on the left handed path, and this is their call for understanding and changing.

Who else, other than Heraclitus and Faqir Chand and Saint John (of the Christian Bible) and myself even come close to describing the LOGOS? If anyone knows of anyone else, do let me know. I say this in humbleness, even though, obviously it doesn't sound like it. But the point has to be made.

Dear Janya,
It is interesting you use Faquir Chand
and St. John of the Cross to identify
your experiences with.

That's a good choice.

Feel free to say anything you want.


Thanks for your sanctimonious responses. You truely have a divine gift of Gab. You could just be a rare form of God in human form. That said, I would like for you to prepare a comment that describes the Superior Being. Write in your own words. You are a GIHF and I know you can do it.

I said nothing of this sort, that I am a GIHF, nor implied it. YOU are attributing it to me. It has come out of you. What is said is said. You deserve nothing more from me. I described A Supreme Being, that every thing and all exist in,the foundation of this world, as the world appears to ME and as shown to me in MY experience. You don't have to believe it, or know it or have any other relationship to it, except, that you have already read it and absorbed it. Let that suffice for now. I always write in my own words, and when I don't, I always reference where I got the quote or paraphrased the info from.

Definitions of the word Sanctimonious

Hypocritically pious or devout

Roger, you have no idea who I am, you don't know me. We have never met, accept on this forum, so how do you say I am not truly pious or devout? On what basis do you say that I am a hypocrite? I have been far from a hypocrite on this forum, in-fact, I have been robustly direct and outspoken; straightforward and honest.

This said, I am truly sorry that we are having this unsavory communication. I only responded in this way because you were rude to me to begin with. I don't hold anything against you. You have a perfect right to your biases and opinions.

and, in fact Roger, in some strange way I respect you for having made the effort to read and understand and react to what I wrote, so despite it all, you too are OK, and for the fact that you made the effort, I forgive you for your slights.

Dear Roger,

Doesn't that make you feel so much better?

Robert Paul Howard

Dear Robert Paul Howard,

Isn't it nice to be cordial to each other? Dear used to be a nice human way to address each other,but oh, I forget, this is when human beings had manners. But thank you for your contribution.

More about the Logos, not from me but from an ancient Greek philosopher called Heraclitus


The writing of Heraclitus was the first place where the word logos was given special attention in ancient Greek philosophy,[14] although Heraclitus seems to use the word with a meaning not significantly different from the way it was used in ordinary Greek of his time.[15] For Heraclitus logos provided the link between rational discourse and the world's rational structure.[16]

This LOGOS holds always but humans always prove unable to understand it, both before hearing it and when they have first heard it. For though all things come to be in accordance with this LOGOS, humans are like the inexperienced when they experience such words and deeds as I set out, distinguishing each in accordance with its nature and saying how it is. But other people fail to notice what they do when awake, just as they forget what they do while asleep.
—Diels-Kranz, 22B1

For this reason it is necessary to follow what is common. But although the LOGOS is common, most people live as if they had their own private understanding.
—Diels-Kranz, 22B2

Listening not to me but to the LOGOS it is wise to agree that all things are one.
—Diels-Kranz, 22B50[17]

What logos means here is not certain: it may mean 'reason' or 'explanation' in the sense of an objective cosmic law; or it may signify nothing more than 'saying' or 'wisdom'.[18] Yet, an independent existence of a universal logos was clearly suggested by Heraclitus.[19]

Reproduced here from the Wikipedia page "Logos" under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License ( I believe this is how Wikipedia is to be referenced;informal attribution, of course.)

My special definition,

Sanctimonious involves making a big show about how you are better or morally superior to others. (adjective)
An example of sanctimonious is someone who always goes on and on about how he/she does tons of religious/spiritual work and is such a great person. This type of person is usually rather harmless, but can be a spiritual tease and babbler.

Janya cannot be guilty of that. She does little "spiritual work." The only spiritual/mental work she does is "thinking." She is not even on to the next level, that of "thinking" about "thinking."

The event described was bestowed on her spontaneously, with no effort or desire for it from her side when she was only 17 and into everything that girls that age do. She cannot be called a babbler because the original,(of which the description on this blog is but a small part of the entire occurrence) is in-fact very well explained, cohesive and non-poetic. Ruefully non-artistic and directly frightening in the awesome sort of way. She never claimed to be "morally" superior. Her only concern is that no one lose out on the connection with the true-divine. That was the intent. She would have liked to have related it in the manner of the non-poetic and longer version, however that might be throwing these treasures in the wrong place at the wrong time and possibly to the wrong people. But even without her version, much can be learned and researched with what has already been given.

One's experience of the Supreme Being is such. It doesn't matter if others believe or don't. However, the one that actually had the experience should be able to prepare a description(in their own words) of that supreme experience. Likewise, one would hope that person(mind/ego) would be able to explain the mechanism as to how a direct experience of the absolute(supreme) being is captured (cognisized) by the human brain. This is what I am asking and have been asking for years.

Now that is a very important and most necessary question Roger! How is the direct experience of the absolute/supreme being captured/cognized in the brain?


One moment I was dying (near death experience) and the next I was traveling at a super incredible speed, on what seemed to be a horizontal escalator type conveyer something /belt or this is how it felt to me, metaphorically speaking. My body was dying but not me! I was fully aware inside my dying body but the people around me later told me that I was near death! My essential I ( deeper me) traveled on this (it was taking me somewhere), in a pitch black tunnel. (ugh, very scary) for what seemed an eternity, and when I was completely lost and hopeless (these feelings barely describe my state at this time, I saw . . .

I will tell more if you are interested.

It was during this near death experience that I heard, was told and experienced what I wrote about earlier in my description of Logos.

But just because I don't know, (I have a few pieces of this puzzle) but just because I don't know does not mean that the answers can't be found. The problem is that the questions have to be framed correctly; but questions cannot be framed correctly until the concepts are known. These concepts exists and I want to say that many have their analogues in ordinary earthly/physical concepts - as in those of Natural Science.

How does one know they are in a near-death experience?
The body was dying, but why didn't it just end up dead? What is the boundary between the life living seconds before actual death? Is this boundary a state, as described? How did those people know you were dear death? You didn't die. You had an experience, but why call it ND?

Because there were doctors there. They saved me from dying. They told me so. That I was about to die. It was during an operation, something went wrong.

That is why these are called NDEs, NEAR death experiences. If I were dead then, I would not be here writing this, would I?

The boundary state, I can't say its the same for anybody else but my boundary state felt like this:

Entombed in the body.

Body feels like a coffin.

No normal senses accessible.

Can't get out.

Consciousness gathers itself into a point; the "I". That is all there is, this "I", all dark, no up, no down, no right nor left. Suspended but moving at an incredible speed, deeper and deeper into myself/my body, but not of my own volition. Then, after getting oriented to this state, the sense/knowledge is that something else;that is the metaphoric escalator is doing the transporting. The "me", is all and totally, fully and exquisitely all gathered up in this infinitely tiny point, "I." The same I, I knew in ordinary life,(but which was always secondary to; but yet the integrator of sense-world input) and was always in the background,but still present of course in daily life)but now as a "thing in itself." In the sense it is the only "ground" of being-nes. It is the new body! All I know is that I am an I. My name, memories all other life connections are erased in that they are totally irrelevant during this.

All around is pitch dark blackness. Exquisitely all alone. Nothing but the sense of I and the darkness and the moving.

This can be called the boundary state.

I don't know if this can be generalized and apply to others or to all dying events. Just don't know.

What is the boundary between the life living seconds before actual death?

I cannot answer your question as noted above. I, after all survived. By the grace and forgiveness of the one I call GOD and All Knowing LOGOS, I was allowed to return so that I may do my purpose.

Who can tell the living what the final moments/seconds of life were like?

There are psychics as we all know who claim this though. But, who returns after real death to tell us what dying was like?

Yes, psychics and some psychotherapists as well are now reporting a process called Bilateral Stimulation. Apparently this is connecting people to loved ones who have passed away, not by going to a psychic or a medium but to State licensed Psychotherapists! Its called Guided After Life Connections. Personally, I do not believe its the real Ego or individuality of the deceased that is showing up but some sort of enlivened memory linked to some thread of the individuality. The Real individuality usually has other things to do, but oh, well this is just speculation on my part.

Judge for yourself



Thanks for your messages. Best wishes to you. I would not be judging for myself. The boundary between life and death is an interesting topic. That is, the seconds before and after (brain and body) actual death. I wonder how the experience immediately after death would be recorded.

You are welcome Roger.

I don't think it can be recorded by physical recording devices (as they exist now), some Shamans and Seers are said to follow the newly deceased and guide them.(for a while at least.)

May be of some interest, and perhaps relevant in some respects.


The Beauty That Could Have Been Radha Saomi and the Beauty that can be YOU

Gather all your happy memories and revive them often in your heart. Happiness is what everyone desires. Happiness is enlightnement. Happiness and union is what we all desire. Your own bouquet is the closest to you. Make your own life a happy one.

There is a saying in Punjabi: "apni gathadi sambhal tenu chor naal ki" - Take care of, watch over and save your own bundle, why concern yourself with the thief?"

Perhaps this might have some tangential significance:


Robert Paul Howard

The Sun shines equally on all.

Ha Ha, I must finally be doing something right on this blog! Thank You Tara.

Wahae True Guru (Where ever and Who ever you may be), Sat Naam/True Name/Ture Word/Logos

I went back and read many posts on this thread which left me wondering about this:

Is there any Satsangi here (Ex or otherwise) who has actually heard the Sound Current?

The reason I am asking is that once one has heard it, it is impossible to deny it. It is also not the exclusive property of Santh Math, and it also predates Santh Math.

I wish to clarify my position on Mysticism because I made a comment in a previous post that might lead to misunderstanding.

There is in fact a true and real mysticism and there is the counterfeit, pseudo one.

I believe that the real mystics are the ones who are able to explore different/other dimensions/planes in full awareness with their egos intact,that is as conscious individuals.

I also tend to believe that Lucifer is active in Mysticism (as this force is in all other areas of existence )but so is the Logos. The mature practitioner develops mastery over his or her spiritual/inner experience by a firm identification with the "First Will for Good." (I mentioned this in an earlier post.) Lucifer then becomes an ally. After all, the so-called Lucifer is a very very high being/force/state and is the holder of very vast amounts of knowledge and wisdom as well. Lucifer in fact simply means Morning Star, the Shining One. There is some good basic information on the etymology of this name on Wikipedia. In fact, some philosophers and spiritual researchers have even posited the idea of a "Redeemed Lucifer."


What is Sat Naam? Is it the last of the five?

Roger, I will defer your question to Mike. He has a list on this thread.

In the Guru Granth Sahib, the religious text of the Sikhs Satnam is described as follows:

Satnam (Gurmukhi:ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ) is the main word that appears in the Sikh sacred scripture called the Guru Granth Sahib. It is part of the Gurbani shabad called Mool Mantra which is repeated daily by all Sikhs. This word succeeds the word "Ek-onkar" which means "There is only one constant" or commonly "There is one God". The words sat means "true" and nam means "name".[1] In this instance, this would mean, "whose name is truth".[2]

The word nam in Sikhism has two meanings. "It meant both an application and a symbol of the All-pervading Supreme Reality that sustained the universe. Guru Nanak in his teachings emphasized the need of repeating Sat-Nam to realize the All-pervading Supreme Reality." [3] Wikipedia

The way I additionally interpret Satnam is that this name implies/ points to the real name of GOD/ultimate reality whose actual name (if it has one)is unknown.

Frankly, I am not sure if this name would apply to Logos or that which Logos flows from, or that which logos is, if taken from the Nous point of view.

Hope I am making sense!

Roger - Here is a list from the Net

Mike's Pipal Mandi Agra initiation lists Satnam as fifth, and the sixth being Alakh Parush, whose being is called Alakh Lok. The word Alakh means beyond identifying features or attributes. It refers to Attributeless God. (Wikipedia) and Lok means land of, abode of, being of, location of.

So basically, as also described in Rosicrucianism, as well as in Hindu cosmology, and other groups as well as well as Wikipedia, under "Planes," these divisions ( eg. as noted in the sequential holy name mantras) are a continuum of the GOD/Ultimate Reality's expression - From supremely formless and attrituteless to the supremely formed (material world as we know it) with attributes. But all points on the continuum are ontological, meaning that they have "beingness", therefore the name of the diety inhabiting that area or being that area itself, as in Satnam, or Alakh Purush (Purush meaning being, Brittanica.com describes Purush as: purusha, ( Sanskrit: “person,” “self,” “spirit,” or “consciousness”).


Sat Naam, I think is the last of the five holy names, one repeats in RSSB meditation. Are you a RSSB initiate? Maybe not, or I learned something different a few years back. I'm not a RSSB initiate.

Yes, Roger, I am a RSSB initiate. I was initiated by Maharaj Charan Singh, who I still respect,appreciate and care about. GOD bless him where ever he is.

I also spent time at Dera Baba Jaimal Singh, Beas. It was an uplifting experience. I do not attend satsangs, haven't in the past 22 or so years, because they were a waste of time and they probably still are.

I cannot yea or nay the Satnam location nor its connection or non-connection to the RSSB initiation. I made a promise at initiation that I would not reveal this and I plan to keep my promise.

You stop this nasty blogs..........

You are all sick minded.....

Without any reason criticizing others faith..

Who has given you permission to hurt others feelings and believe
If you do not believe no one is forcing you to belive this faith
We are living in free world and everyone is free to make decision and choose their faith with full freedom. We think it is right if you do not think it is right stop following but do not say that others are fool who are following it. You are the only intelligent

Hi Mike- I went through your post dated Oct 2011 - you said: It is the supression of the sexual energy which causes inner vision.

You say: The supression blows up the subconscious mind into consciousness.

Me: Don't you think that if you don't want to go insane doing this, the better way is to simply experience the sexual energy, without reacting to it, rather than suppressing it and having the blow out experience? Could it be different for men vs women?

You: Faquir Chand also went internal and described the
inner planes as non existant.

Me: It is completely possible to step out of one's body, to go through walls and doors in a consciousness that is exquisitely and supremely more real,down to the tingling feeling in your toes and feeling your feet touch the floor, fully and amazingly aware, far far more conscious than in normal everyday reality. And in a space-dimension where one is totally conscious and aware in real objective local space and time with local objects and geometry just the way it is in ordinary awareness but only inverted. Not transcendental but in the here and now.

How is it that Faqir Chand or others of "experience" deny this? Hos is it possible that yogis as advanced as Faqir Chand would not know of this and deny inner dimensions, even if they are subjective states?

This is a big mystery, why do they say there are no internal dimensions? Are they referring to something else?

Robert Monroe, a researcher of the inner, writes about this.

On reading some of the older posts especially David's (who is he? Hi David!) to Tara I am in agreement with him when he says that "something is going on."

For those who are not afraid of clicking on links, and not afraid of sharing information that could throw more light on yogic experiences I am sharing a link below.

I find Robert Monroe's discussions quite interesting. He wrote many books on the subject of Out-of Body Experiences.

Robert Monroe (2 of 7) Journeys Out of the Body


Hi Janya,

Inner dimensions exist. Inner planes do not.
(Astral, causal, sat nam, radhasoami pad
do not exist.)

Almost everything you hear of spirituality
talks about inner planes. This is completely
mental, right down to the reptilian parts of our brain and subconscious.

No one talks about inner dimensions. The
philosophy of the inner dimensions is always
right here and right now. This is an
inconcievable concept even for those who
toss spiritual concepts around like
hash in a flop house.

Even people who talk of Zen and the Tao
do not realise they
are using the standard
rhetorical verbiage of old hat schools.

Zen sounds cool, but smells bad.

The Ultimate Realty is only for childlike
people such as Ramana Maharshi and Jiddo

It could be said, until one has touched
the Ultimate Simplicity, life has passed
one by.

Masters, inner planes, enlightenment...
are all a farce.

People and masters never even make it
to first base.

It's all bambastic nonsense.

"It could be said, until one has touched
the Ultimate Simplicity, life has passed
one by."

You speak in many riddles. How is one to decode them?

"You (Mike Williams) speak in many riddles. How is one to decode them?"
quote Janya

Both the satsangis and exsatsangis are
asleep. Even the enlightened are asleep.
The hypnotic spell is complete and total.

A person is either asleep...or awake ...
but, they can't be both.

The exsatsangi is still asleep, because
they think there is nothing else left to
find out about matters. Even worse, the exsatsangi can be as bad, or worse, then the satsangi both ethically and morally.

So, how can either the satsangi, or the exsatsangi, ever find Reality ?

Can Reality be deceived ? Can you sneak
in the back door of Reality ?

The only reason people don't find Reality
is .... they are rotten.

Reality finds the ruthlessly honest and humble people.

The door is shut for all others.

Hi Janya

I have posted here now and again for about the last 3 years i think. I am not a satsangi or initiate in this religion. I come from an understanding of Paramahansa Yogananda, Vivekananda etc. I don't know if you are aware of Yogananda's teachings but his guru knew people from Sant Mat, and their teachings include hearing OM and seeing the spiritual eye and passing into it.

I don't think Mike has all the screws in his brain tight and locked in place. My opinion of course.

Psychic energy pathways in the body are not related to the nerve electricities. They are astral in nature and are awakened as a result of yoga practice. They are called nadis and they give off sounds, particularly at the chakra centres. The chakras also give off light which is seen clairvoyantly and when you see the spiritual eye you are looking down the brain and spinal column inwardly. It appears as a gold ring surrounding a blue field with a 5 pointed white star in the centre. Within this vision you have spherical 3D vision, you see psychically, you can see dead people and other astral planes, and when you pierce the star in the centre you get cosmic consciousness, or samadhi. It has nothing to do with sex. It is energy. Kundalini is awakened psychic energy which blends with and feeds with the other energies of the physical body. Hence, celibacy conserves energy which contributes to the awakening of the psychic forces. It is just asceticism, of which there are other manifestations. Fasting, silence, vegetarianism, meditating at night, and breathing exercises.

There are similarities between the OBE, NDE and spiritual experiences. Obviously, the spiritual eye is similar to the light at the end of the tunnel in the NDE. This corresponds to savikalpa samadhi, where the body goes into suspended animation as the soul goes into the light. It is a death process, in other words. To say that this is completely subjective misses the point because there is no way to distinguish between those inner realms as "real" places or places in consciousness. They are the same. It isn't possible to have an experience without consciousness. If you personally believe they are real locations in some kind of altered space and time that is fine. I don't think anybody would be very interested in telling you that you were wrong unless they had some kind of problem with you. Which seems to be the general trend of posts on this weblog. Science versus religion, that kind of thing.

Wow Mike - Such sweeping generalizations! But well said though. What is Reality? Whose Reality? To assert that a satsangi or a non satsangi cannot find reality is a very extreme opinion, and of-course,if you really think through it, its not true.

But I do understand what you mean by honest and humble people. Great suffering is the Great Purifier.

Its after 22 years that I have even spoken or become involved with anything Radha Saomi by landing on this blog. Its been on the back burner all these years; yet always with me. Does this make me an I Ex-Satsangi? In the meantime, I have had many other experiences both of a spiritual as well as normal earthly reality. How is it possible that I don't know what Reality is? But again, whose Reality, what Reality?

Can anyone who has been into anything ever loose it while alive, or even after death?
No, its always in the etheric realm,in the Akashic Record, in the person's memories. One can be aware of it, analyze it and understand it. One can create antidotes or enhancements to experiences by creating other experiences.

How do you define "Being Awake?" Interestingly, U.G. Krishnamurthy spoke about an experience he had, rather The Experience that was a defining moment in his life. Right after a meeting, I believe in Switzerland, with Jidu Krishnamurthy who was lecturing there at the time, where he, as he knew himself to be, all violently dropped away and for the first time he was truly awake.

Mike . . . Then I take it that you as an ex-satsangi, ( I recall you saying you have been initiated into several Surat Shabd Yoga streams) can also not/never know what Reality is, that you too are asleep. So, what ever you tell me about the Great Simplicity, the humbleness and the honesty is moot,based on your own premise.

Hello David R.

You don't have a clue.

Yogananda has been crucified here for his antics. Your going to follow in his
footsteps ? You would KNOWINGLY follow a scoundrel ? What does that make you ?

Deal with reality. There is no such thing
as kundalini, or chakras. Yogananda has
been debunked.

To Janya,
I have experienced the reality of sant mat and reject it. I have experienced the reality of Yogananda group and reject it.
These have nothing to do with reality and
everything to do with delusion.

Hi David,

Thanks for your response. Yes, I am aware of and have read a little of Swami Yogananda, but haven't traveled his way yet.

Yes, I can't help but believe that I have experienced, as others have, events that are real locations/dimensions/planes in altered space and time, including the famous NDE light at the end of the tunnel.

But my exchange with Mike concerns the existence of some other external form of force or energy that doesn't seem to have anything to do with Kundalini or body energies or experiences arising from them - to me this signifies some other energy, of the all pervasive kind that is self evident and needs nothing else other than honesty, simplicity, humbleness and a foothold in objective every day reality; [perceptions coming to us through our physical five senses [but of-course, it doesn't end there, because we also experience the inner senses of Thinking, Feeling and Willing in relation to the sense perceptions received from our external physical senses.)] to make itself known to the cognizer and be of help to him or her. This sounds like that which the Christians call the Holy Spirit to me. But Mike does not come out and say this directly. So, I am constantly befuddled as to what he is referring to.

Are we talking about apples and oranges,different but both fruit? Why would it hurt someone to consume both?

And then we have the third leg "Science."

Why is it not possible to justify and integrate all three so that we can all get closer to the real Truth?

Thank you for the description of the spiritual eye - the 5 pointed star sounds like an aperture. But why would we be looking from our brains, down the spinal cord?

Hi Mike - Please don't get me wrong, I am just trying to get to an understanding.

So you are saying that once an initiate rejects the offensive system, he/she is free of it? But is a baptism of some sort needed? You know the Christians say it is. If not a baptism, what is needed? Nothing? Just lead a determined truthful and humble life? Doing the simple everyday things of Earthly existence? The Golden Rule. Compassion, Kindness, Goodness, Conscience along with rationality? Not read certain books etc.? Science included or not?

You make this thing you are talking about so mystical and fuzzy, why is it not clearly explainable. Why would only the children know it? Are they like the "elect" or are they in a different category? Isn't all humanity "children?"

Again, please don't consider this anything other than my desire to know.

The chakras are situated along the spinal chord.

Makes no sense from a normal perspective.

Makes more sense from a psychic energy persepctive.


OK David. Thanks for saying hello and educating me. :)

I whole-heartedly agree with Mike.

You guys are not understanding what Mike is saying. And Mike is putting it very clearly and succinctly.

It appears that most of the rest of you folks have collected and bought into a bunch of various concepts that you have acquired from elsewhere (not from your own experience).

If you truly want reality, then you are going to have to dump all those cute ideas that you cling to.

None of you here except for Mike has come anywhere near the right diretion.

Open your mind and let go of all that stuff you have bought into. So give it up. You can't have reality on your terms.

As Mike said, "reality finds the ruthlessly honest and humble people."

"The chakras are situated along the spinal chord. "
quote David R

There is no such thing as chakras,
nor kundalini.

Hi Janya,
Yes, there is a power unrelated to all
you have been taught. Ramana spoke of
it also and I have quoted it in the past.

The philosophers ignore this power, because
it doesn't fit their logic.

It is only here right now. Come as you are.

It is not the Holy Spirit, nor is it God.

It has the best wishes for all and sees the
future perfectly. Those in tune, let it shape their destiny.

It becomes responsible for everything.

In reality, there is nothing you can do
except watch it.

Touching it is all you need to do.

It sits on top of your head. It is completely competent and
needs no help from you.

To finish answering your question Jayna,
A person named Tao has appeared. This
unusual fellow is not only fully enlightened,
but he has the Positive Power.

Humility is the ability to question everything you hold dear to your heart.

Examine everything, crucify your beliefs.
Stand naked in unknowing and concede to
that which does know.

There is Something that does know and
can act effectively for the betterment
of all.

You concede to that which can help both
you and mankind. You hold on to it no
matter how good, or bad you are.

You hold it no matter what. You do not try to change yourself. If there is anything to be changed the Force will do it without you
even realizing you have been changed.

Thanks Mike and TAo. I know you did mention it earlier Mike, but then you discredited Ramana as well, so this has left me very confused. I don't know about the comment on the cute things that have been brought in though.

TAo - I do appreciate your input but again, I think you being very presumptuous when you say that:

It appears that most of the rest of you folks have collected and bought into a bunch of various concepts that you have acquired from elsewhere (not from your own experience).

How do you know that I or the "rest of us folks" are just mouthing concepts from others and that we have not had experiences of our own? I for one, have had many many profound, life changing spiritual experiences since I was 16 years old. I don't think its appropriate to list and describe them all as I have already been accused of being sanctimonious, prideful etc. by commentators of this blog. I have never put a system or name to my experiences. None of them had any perceptible spinal cord chakra type involvements. I have known about Kundalini for many years but was never attracted to its phenomenon, because I have always felt that learning about the larger aspects of spirituality and the creator (s), and the universe was more relevant to me.

Mike- What you just said, on the TAo appearing post, I fully agree with. TAo, so nice to meet you. In fact, I am watching Ramana videos right now. I lived nearly 20 years in Southern India so do understand the ethos of the area. Again, thanks guys!:)

So I am led to this understanding that Ramana Maharshi was a devotee of Sri Krishna of the Bhagvad Gita a gyana yogi and more. Sri Krishna says that he is the self of all beings and that he does everything. So, I am led to believe that the power being referred to as the helper by Mike and TAo is in fact that which is Shri Krishna.

"Without pride, without delusion, victorious over the blemish of attachment, ever abiding in the Self, their desires abandoned, released from the pairs called pleasure and pain, they go undeluded to that Abode Immutable."

At the end of many births the jnani finds refuge in Me, recognising that Vasudeva is all. Such a high Soul is very hard to find.



Why else would he say so much about Krishna power, quoting from the Bhagvad Gita?

More reasons why I believe the Power alluded to by Mike and TAo is that of Shri Krishna.

Question: I wish to get Sakshatkara (direct realisation) of Sri Krishna. What should I do to get it?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: What is your idea of Sri Krishna and what do you mean by Sakshatkara?

Questioner: I mean Sri Krishna who lived in Brindavan and I want to see him as the gopis (His female devotees) saw Him.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: You see, you think he is a human being or one with a human form, the son of so and so, whereas He Himself has said, ‘I am in the Heart of all beings, I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all forms of life’. He must be within you, as He is within all. He is your Self or the Self of your Self. So if you see this entity (the Self) or have Sakshatkar (direct realisation) of it, you will have Sakshatkar of Krishna. Direct realisation of the Self and direct realisation of Krishna cannot be different. However, to go on your own way, surrender completely to Krishna and leave it to him to grant the Sakshatkar you want.


I am now even more convinced that this power is the power of the Self as expounded by Sri Krishna and lived by Ramana Maharshi.

Hi Janya,
Ramana has to use the rhetorical terms of his day to communicate with.

Worse, he was translated from one language to another.

The Self is a bad choice of words, as it infers a persona of some type, or underlying God.

The Positive Power has no self. In reality
it cannot be called Krishna, or anything else.

It is non persona.

The Positive Force may be thought of as
walking up to the bartender of life and ordering a drink in the lounge ....

"I will have the Tao... with a Twist."

The Twist is wonderous in its operation.

If you kiss the Twist.. It will kiss back.

All you can do is kiss it.. nothing else.

That is so cool and Hmmmm. . . to the beach I go.

Reading further into the Agra books link in Secret History pages, my decades old antipathy to the use and overuse of the word "Surat" and "Current" in the RSSB/Sant Math literature has resurfaced. In my opinion the cosmogony would be far more effective and efficient, modern and non-sectarian if these traditional, loaded words were dropped and modern ones used instead. For example, " (Directed/directional/self motivated) surge of energy" or something similar could be used instead of "current". Even the sporadically used RSSB pharase "audible life stream" is less irritating and better describes the phenomenon. Radha -Soami as well as the other names of "being plus location" combos could likewise be described more elegantly and in universal terms so that non-Northern Indian audiences would be better served, without the unneccessary sectarian exclusivity, confusions and mystique.

More importantly, it is very destructive and a real disservice to humanity to fixate on just one fact/attribute of the infinite Absolute Reality, vis.a vis. the assertion that the "Sound Current" is the only way to return to the Nameless-True One. The hearable connection to the Nameless-True One, is only made through one of our sense organs, the ear (inner ear). We have other organs of perception as well, don't we? Imagine telling a newborn that they should blind themselves or cut their noses off for these are not needed; the only sense needed to experience physical reality is the sense of hearing! But the Nameless-True One, is not exclusively sound! This one-sidedness of the Santh Math system as evidenced in the pathological attachment to the sound current appears to be the culprit in that which manifests as Santh Math specific egotism /evil.

babajis 3 day visit here in Sydney on 13,14 and 15th of july will always remain special for me, as i saw a different master altogether, his actions his speech his way of responding and handling the questions was spectacular, the way he was interacting with sangat was just amazing, till this period i always thought of him being serious, strict and disciplined in handling and answering queries, in turn majority of that turned into a laughter spiritual show, seriously babaji enjoyed thoroughly as he was laughing and doing things like swinging his whole body along with his head for a big no, and then waving hand ( jab hum kehtein hain , REHNE DE YARR or CHADD YARR, and instantly how we wave our hand) that was how he waved his hand smilingly but he said nothing like CHADD YARR, only wave and smile, this made us laugh even more. He emphasized on being practical and applying logical approach in everything, insisted to analyze and channelize every action, asking ourselves questions of why and what importance does our actions hold.

For two days babaji sat only for darshan and on third day he did satsang in Punjabi; which was about putting everything into practice after reading, and not just getting stuck till reading, that is why we have to analyze and should think logically. we have to surrender everything to him, this way he will help us in both spiritual as well as worldly affairs ,i don’t remember much of satsang as I was immersed in him, these are the only words that I remember when I realized that I was in satsang.

- one bibi walks to MIC and statrs singing prayer, she said
she wrote it for babaji well i dont remeber the whole prayer
but i know few lines like " taro mere data mere SATGURUJI
tum hi mere rakhpal mere SARGURUJI.." now poem went on
and on and on.then some moments after babaji interrupted
in between and said in punjabi " BIBI ASI BAAKI SNAGAT NU VI MAUKA DENA HAI" then she urged babaji bas thodi reh gayi thodi si, then she completed rest of her prayer and politely and
smilingly babaji said radha soami to her. ( good start for sangat coz everyone one was smiling )

- to one of the question realted to sitiing and seeing nothing
BABAJI- pehlan aapan siitning banaiye pehlan bethan di tan koshish kariye, aaj kal di generation nu bahut jaldi hai, har kam wich unhanu instant result chahide ne, o pai pehlan usda hukam tan manno bethna tan shuru karo, - BABAJI KAAFI TIME HO GEYA HAIN 6 MAHINE HO GAYE NE PURE, TE HAJE TAK BHI KUCH NI DIKHEYA. BABAJI - O PAI guru sahiban da hukam eko hi hai usde hukam wich rahange ta o puri smabhal karuga TAN JE PHIR LIGHT AND SOUND CHAHIDA HAI TAN O PHIR DISCO WICH BHI MIL JUGA. we seriously cracked sangat along with BABAJI were just laughing and lauguhing.... it was great moment to see him smile and then waving his hand at end (REHNE DE YARR) hahaha priceless moment.

- there was one girl asking question related to criticism that everyone has to face, which includes everything.

BABAJI- BETA why do you have to bring your level down, if some walks in the street and starts abusing me, why would i have to bring my level down to his, hazur use to say, its better to have one fool under one roof, isnt it so, GIRL - YES BABAJI , but babaji a lot of times we have to face criticism regarding our lifestyle, way of eating and path and master, BABAJI - WELL BETA, IF SOME ONE SAYS TO YOU THAT YOUR MASTER IS DONKEY, SAY TO THEM " YES HE IS DONKEY OF WORST BREED" HE IS LOWEST IN LOW'.( babaji was laughing and saying this to her) see beta, problem starts when we REACT when we dont react there will be no problem at all. girl - ok babaji thank you radha soami.

question regarding digestion of spiritual experiences.
Q - babaji mera hajma bahut kharab hai, mainu badi mushkil hundi hai....

BABAJI - O PAI , je sara khana khake aapan wapis usnu bahar nikal daeiye tan nuksaan kida hai phir beta, usnu jitna smabhaal ke rakhoge us malik ne utni hi hor bakshish karni hai, MAN - babaji par kade kade apni car te shabd laaye hunde ne tan unhanu sunke andron ini energy aajandi hain ke iddan lagda hai ke apna sir sheeshe te mar dan BABAJI - pai je bahrale shabd wich eh halat hai tan andarle shabd naal ki banuga, MAN - BABAJI DAYA KARO REHMAT KARO, and cried too much babaji kept gazing him until he left from there and when he said radha soami, babaji also said him radha soami and said quitely and politely koi ni koi ni... great moment

Q - MAN) BABAJI je kisi ne kisi da dil dukhaya hain tan phir us ton maafi mangani chahiye ya fir halaat upar chad dena chahiye.

BABAJI - JAROOR mangani chahidi, maafi mangan naal saade andar hor jhukaw aajanda hai tan usnaal sada kuch ghat da tan nahin hai, MAN - BABAJI TAN phir mainu baksh lo, baksh lo babaji main eho je kam kitte ne mainu baksh lo babaji.. cried long and loud, babaji kept looking him sadly and said USDE GHAR HUMESHA BAKSHISH HAI, O TAN BAKSHANHAR HAI, USDE GHAR KISI CHEEZ DI KAMI NAHIN HAI, tan phir len da bhi jariya hai naal den da bhi jariya hai...... MAN - BAKSH LO BABAJI.... AND WENT AWAY.. every single soul sitting there was literally in tears it was as if we all had same confession to make and then he graciously blessed and comforted us.....

Q - lady) babaji u have pulled me all the way from afrcia to here i dont know how i felt the pull for you but i dont know if im on the right path or not, how do you get to choose your master......

BABAJI - instantly babaji lifted his hand in air and said INI MINI MANI MO and laughed hahahaha BETA see its the comfort level that you get, its upto you to decide and he smiled LADY - BABAJI YOU ARE SO HANDSOME, I MEAN IN THIS AGE TOO YOU LOOK SO GOOD,

Q- a lot of sangat had this common question which was related to physical problem, health problems and all were begging for grace and more grace..

BABAJI - LISTEN IF BY GETTING INITIATED OR TAKING NAAM IF YOU START TO THINK THAT ALL MY BODILY PROBLEMS ARE NOW GOING TO GET AWAY THEN YOU ARE MISTAKEN, physical pain and burden is due to our past karma our initiation or mediatation in no way is going to eliminate our physical body problems, yes, if you are attending to meditation regulalry then by his grace all the big karmas become like a pin prick or in other words you get the strength to bear the burden of heavy karmas and it start to feel light, but then we must reflect this in our actions and not just words alone.

Q- lady) babaji we have little child she is 2- 3 yrs old, my husband is non- veggie and im strictly walking on your path, i dont want my liltle girl to be fed meat and egg from this age, whereas my husband he forces her to eat whatever comes along, and so there is always disturbance in our home.

BABAJI- BETA you should not force or implement your own rules on her if you start pushing her from this age it will affect her in later ages, let her grow first she will understand by herself for what is good and bad for her, forcing her at this age is not going to yield any benefit to you.

Q- BABAJI jab GAIR SATSANGI humare liye veg khana banate hain to kya humein unke invitation pe unke ghar khana chahiye.

BABAJI- BETA GAIR SATSANGI lafz nahin kehna aage se, humein ye yaad rakhna hai ke humne gair satsangi ka lafz nahin use karna, hum yahan deewarein giraane aaye hain, koi gair nahin hai beta sab aapne hain, aur phir agar unhone itni mehnat karke aapke liye khana banay hai to ismein koi kharabi nahin beta.

Q- lady) BABAJI mera husband shaadi to pehlan mainu kehnda si ke unhu kisi bhi cheez to koi problem hai nahin par hun oh mere naal ladai karda hai tan mainu jabardasti gurudware leke janda hai, tan babaji mera mahol bhi nahin reya dasso babaji and cried.....

BABAJI- beta dekho pyaar wich na badi takat hai, tussi apne kai problems jede ne oh pyaar naal bhi hal kar sakde ho, naal beta gurudware naal ki problem hain uthe tan jo kuch bhi hai ohi tan asi bhi satsang wich lende han, jini gurubani hai satsangan wich bhi asi ohi lende ne, naal gurudware jaan wich koi problem nahin hai, main bhi gurudware jauna, iddan na socho beta mahol tan asi tayar karna hai, pher hi kuch houga.

Q- OLD LADY) BABAJI mere sacche padhshah tuhade aagge ardass hai mera inna time nikal gaya, bachpan ton beas jaana, naal phir jawani aaayi phir bacche ho gaye phir oph bhi badde ho gaye tan agge unhan de bhi bacche ho gaye phir hun bas budhappa hi reh gaya hai babaji daya karo hun taan kucch daya karo....

BABAJI- O BIBI tuhanu jedi sewa diti si ude uthe kinna dhayan ditta,
BIBI - babaji hunda hi nahin kuch ni dikhda daya karo babaji ...
BABAJI - bibi tussi menu dasso ke bhajan simran tussi kita ya nahin.... BIBI- ( bibi started again complaining about physical problems but she didnt answered the question) babaji tussi karao sab kuch ...
BABAJI ( smilingly) - O BIBi tusi eko kam chad ke sab kuch kar leya tan naal bhajan simran hi nahin kitta tan phir kitthon gal banugi.. BIBI - babaji daya karni kyon band kar diti hai.. BABAJI - BIBI daya kade bhi nahin band hundi darwaje tan us din hi khol ditte si jis din sanu naam daan di bakshih hoi si.. BIBI- BABAJI tan hun daya kyun band karti, reham karo babaji. BABAJI- (LAUGHINGLY) O MAIN KOI UPRON TAKKAN LAYA HAI, hun tussi mere samne kahde ho tan je phir hun tussi mere tarf pith karke bae jaoge te naal kahoge ke babaji kithe gaye ne tan pai main tan kite bhi nahin gaya tusi hi apna rukh modeya hoya hai... BIBI- babaji daya karo tan muh apni taraf mod deyo babaji, BABAJI- pai BABA HI SAB KUCH KARUGA, tuahnu tan plate wich khana bhi bana deyan, tan plate wich pa wi deyan, naal muh wich paake muh hila bhi deyan ( babaji lifted his hand and bringing it in a position of holding jaw moved it up and down) o bibi tussi asli gal te aye hi nahin tan phir kam kiddan banuga, mehnat karange jadon kadma chakkan ge tan usne bhi phir hath phadan ch deri nahin launi, te je bhajan simran de tarfon muh pher ke rakhnage tan us malik ne bhi ant smay aeho hi kenha hai, ke aeh kedi ruh hai jedi ruladi phirdi hai. asi bhi apna kam karna hai.

Q- (girl) babaji was smiling when she came on mic, girl- babaji im really nervous now i can almost feel my heart beating ....
BABAJI- STARTED saying my heart goes boom boom boom , sangat was flat on the floor, haha great time.
girl- babaji im walking on this path as i come form satsangi family but im not sure as to if im on the right path or not.
BABAJI- BETA this is all depending on your comfort level if you feel so your welcome or else give yorself time take time in understanding everyhting dont rush into this.

Q- SARDAR JI) babaji radha somi, mainu babaji 1983 wich naam daan di bakshih hoi si, hazur ne bahut rehmat kiti si bahut kuch dekhan tan sunan nu mileya, par babaji hun main eh confession saari sangat de aage karna chahnga ke hun menu iddan lagda hai ke mere utte daya honi band ho gayi hai babaji kede karma da hisab ho rhayea hai inni bhi badsalikhi kyun, kadon mere sukhe vede wich oh ful khilange..... tan babaji hun to ghar wale bjhi taane maran to nahi hat de meri apni wife mainu kehndi hai ke oh jado choti hundi si oh maharaj ji da kurta phad ke rakh di si te hun oh us kurte nu chuda nahin sakde, tan hun majuda babaji mere pindo mehimasinghwala to han to iddan kehnde ne ke uddar da tan kutta bhi picche nahin rehna saare bakshe jaange..... sangat along with babaji started laughing,,,, sardarji then said- babaji te main bhi chup ni rehay main bhi chnaga jawab ditta main kaheya je kutte bhi bakshan jaange tan mainu to pehlan bkashih honi hai kyunki main tan us pind da jawai han. babaji was laughing sangat was laughing madly haha, then babaji said- chalo tuhwadi dona de chagde wich tussi bhajan simran tan karde ho na... and then he laughed...
BABAJI - BHAI SHAB assin tan us malik de aage bas arjoi hi kar sakde han, tan jadon oh samjhda hai ke eh is bakshish nu smbhaln de layak ho gaya hai oh sanu oh daat bkash dinda hai, te je asi hi kamzor ho ke picche hat jawanga tan kiddan chaluga...himmat nahin harani appan koshihs karni hai, ehi ek kam unhe sadde palle paya hai, tan jadon oh thik smjhuga usne daya kar deni hai. ..... SARDAR JI- BABAJI main ik aise je island to aya han jitthe sanu koi satrsang nahin hain tan mahol bhi bana rahe babaji aisi bkashih karo... BABAJI SMILINGLY- pai tuhanu eni duniya chadd ke hor koi jagah ni mili, phir picchon babe nu mada kehnde ho, SARDAR JI - babji main tan eh soch raheya si ki mainu itthe tuhade hukam naal ana paya hai, BABAJI - babaji became quiet for a moment and then smilingly said, tussi na iddar secretary naal gal karke dekho tan phir jo kuch bhi banda hai na usnal shuru karo. sardarji bowed to him and left...

babaji after every satsang gave darsahn by walking, so really had gret time again.

Great! I was amongst the handful of English speaking satsangis at those satsangs in Sydney and wished I could understand what all the talk and laughter was about so... come on Sandy how about some translations into English!!

Do the Indians have any idea about how difficult it is for the westerners following such an alternative life path as well as being initiated into a path which comes from such a very different culture and you can't even understand what the guru is saying.

Its no wonder I'm a recluse and read the churchless site everyday :)

just me,

How did you come to be initiated in the RSSB, in the first place? I see your point, regarding different culture and language. But, why did you make the jump into such? Your story sounds interesting.

Sandy writes "that is why we have to analyze and should think logically. we have to surrender everything to him.."

Why not continue with "we must starve ourselves until we grow thin.We must feast until we grow obese?"


Ooh, Ooh! Me, Me! I want a translation. Translate away.

Tara, thanks. I appreciate the translations, as I'm sure others will. I didn't read anything that sounded like God in Human Form was talking. But then, that's to be expected. Who the heck can know what God would sound like? (assuming God exists)

Thanks Tara, very much appreciated.

I particularly like this from Baba Ji:

GSD : " Child, do not use the word " non-satsangi " next time. We must remember that we mustn't ever use that term, we are here to break down barriers, no one is an outsider, everyone is our own ... and then if they have made such an effort to cook for you, there is nothing wrong in visiting them at all."

Its good to remind satsangis that they are not 'special' and not to separate ourselves from others... must be my lesson to learn :)

Thanks for the translation Tara. Appreciate it!

I like this part regarding choosing one's master.......

"Sister, see it is the comfort level that you get, its up to you to decide. " ( ... and he smiled. )

Hhmmmm so what comfort am I looking for?!?!


im really shocked and surprised going through all this... just close your eyes and answer a simple questions ...are you a good human being? have you ever tried to call god ...or the supereme power..(god is the name given by human beings to the supereme power ..)? have you really waited for his response ?debates wont solve it just call him with pure soul and you will start getting the experience

Comments are moderated and will not appear until the author has approved them...that's funny...and who approves the psychotic ramblings of the author one wonders?

God. Tao. The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Cause and Effect.

Take your pick. Who approved the thoughts you just shared in your comment?

Hey guys,
I am a practising satsangi (beas). I have no problem with your blogging and think it is a good thing that you question like you do. But one thing I never seen addressed in your posts is the possibility that some may in fact experience God within eventhough you may not. Just because you don't expereince it yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that I have experienced anything. All I'm saying is it might be possible. To broadly claim that certain Gurus are phonies by referencing second hand information about what was said in satsang is a huge leap. But I do understand the need to question and applaud you all for doing it.

Peter, it's possible that the guru is God in human form. It's also possible that Jesus was the Son of God and died for our sins. So why aren't you a Christian? It's also possible that God dictated the Koran to Muhammad and it is inerrant truth. So why aren't you a Muslim.

As I've been writing about, just a few days ago lots of true believers in Mitt Romney not only felt it was possible that he'd be elected president, but that it was virtually certain. But that possibility proved to be very wrong.

The believers trusted their feelings, not the evidence. Same with God. Anything is possible, but not everything is real. Follow the evidence, and you're much more likely to find reality. That's what a scientific approach to spirituality is all about. Otherwise, you're just left with religious possibilities, which lead nowhere.

Not long ago i read Brian said he leaves the possibility open, so a nice and clear mind.

Peter, it's possible that the guru is God in human form. It's also possible that Jesus was the Son of God and died for our sins. So why aren't you a Christian? It's also possible that God dictated the Koran to Muhammad and it is inerrant truth. So why aren't you a Muslim.

Hey Brian, Jesus probably was the son of God and died for our sins and I agree with the latter.
But I don't agree with your notion, yes there are many paths with many claims, but I look at it from a RSSB perspective. You might not agree with this, but as saints state that saints don't come into this world to create religions, divisions etc, these were created by the followers.
By becoming a Christian or a Muslim you're worshipping a past saint, this will help you only to an extent.
All I say is condone previous saints and seek a living master. Its not about believing Jesus or Allah and then if you believe them you should become a Christian or Muslim, that notion is wrong.

These religions promise 'salvation' after death, if RSSB was to promise salvation after death I would walk away from it.

So RSSB promises salvation before death? How are you defining a RSSB salvation? How would one know that they received such salvation? So, G have you received your salvation?

THRE IS JUST 1 ANSWER 4 EVERY QUEST...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

sukh's, I agree!

You must have liked my last blog post about meditation replacing the superstition of God:

Yes, meditate. Be mindful. Be aware of the here and now, not the there and then of religion.

Embrace a Zen way of living life, not a religious way. Glad you agree with me, sukh's. Just meditate. No need for God, gurus, and other sorts of superstitions.

I m Aayushi an Indian and a follower of sant mat well I don't know what all your guys thoughts are about sant mat but to tell u I don't think that you people have any respect or at least feelings fr Someone's beliefs because u people don't have any authority to take our beloved baba Ji 's name just as that or even without adding Mr. In front of his name I request u to take his with respect and if u don't want to follow no one's forcing you but don't oppose his teachings because his or any of our other guru's teachings mean a lot to me and any other of his followers .


You say:

"if u don't want to follow no one's forcing you but don't oppose his teachings because his or any of our other guru's teachings mean a lot to me and any other of his followers ."

May I take the liberty of responding to you on behalf of some bloggers here using most of your own words?

If u don't want to follow this blog, no one's forcing you, but don't oppose the freedom of speech of some people who choose not to think like you. This freedom of speech means a lot to me and many other followers of this blog.

Mike: When I was initiated I was made to sign a contract and give a photo of myself by the secretary at my local. Should I be worried? Serious question kind Sir.

Hi 9th Gate,
Demonic possession depends on if the
guru is possessed. If you were initiated
in any of Kirpals group or branches, there is a high probabilty you are possessed.

If you were initiated by Charan, or Gurinder, there is only a small, but still
real chance.

You must give the demon permission to
enter and the demon can and does most often trick you. Signing a initiation form
IS PERMISSION. Even when you have no
clue what you are in for.

See Ars Goetia. See Malachi Martin.

This is the official Salig Ram initiation.

The Agra Initiation into Radhasoami

This is the initiation into
Agra, Peepal Mandi, the original Rai Salig Ram initiation, with presiding dieties, chakras, sounds.
Their mantra is Radhasoami. Mediation is exactly the same, no difference.

1.Sahas Dal Kanwel Jot Naranjan
Flame of candle, bell, conch shell, 3/4 inches
behind Tirsa Til

2. Trikuti Om Kar, Rising sun,, Thunder,
drum, between two eyebrows.

3.Sunn (Dswan Dar) Ranrankar, full moon,
fiddle, center of forehead.

Maha Sunn vast region

4. Bhawar Gupta Sohang Ji, mid day sun,

5. Sat Lok Sat Nam, where hair
starts on forehead,, harp, bin,
100 million suns

6. Alakh Lok Alakh Parush,
2 fingers after hair starts, undescribable

7. Agam Lok Agam arush,
2 fingers after Alakh line, undescribable

8. Radhasoami D, top of head,undescribable


who cares ! ! !
chant the five names and go calm forever! it is simply wow !!!

Hi SM n other God Loving Souls

i ws a RSSB follwr since my childhood as my fam. Ws follwin thm fr th last 40 yrs but with gods extreme grace i got the "paanch naam" video by sant rampal ji on youtube n thn studied everythin which sant rampal ji is teachin throu his discourses

in actual 2 b very frank n straight frwrd sant rampal ji is th only true saint who is providing th true naam which kabir ji gave 2 dharamdas ji daadu ji namdev ji nanak ji malookdas ji gheesadas ji etc saints who attaind salvation n saw god in form n saw satlok/sachkhand/our real abode

kabir ji n othr saints told many identifications of a true saint like he wld b providing naamdan in 3 stages n he will b th knwr of every holy scriptures n will giv th essenc n will also tell who is tht supreme lord n will tell th story of creation of nature with proofs which all fits on sant rampal ji

kabir ji kept th real mantras secret as of now aftr goin 2 satlok 600yrs ago kabir ji again cme around 200yrs ago n met sant garibdas ji n told him th real mantras n told him to daan those mantras only whom god kabir himself will indicate n those true naam cme frm kabir ji 2 garibdasji n now 2 sant rampal ji

so i wld request 2 study sant rampal jis teaching as thoroughly as possible cz this is th only way to attain salvation which is prooved frm saints vaanis n holy buks by sant rampal ji

n u cn also chk th disciples self experiences on youtube

cz thro true worship our bad karms get destroyed gradually n throu bad karmas we get deseases n othr problems so these thing cn only b crrect by true worship

KABIR Ji says

simran se sukh hot hai simran se dukh jaaye

nanak ji says

nanak dukhiya sab sansar sukhiya soye jo naam adhaar

this TATAVGYAN is very vast th abv points r jus a hint

plz study books satsangs n if possible cme 2 ashram cz this is th only way frnkly n strght frwrdly speakin belive it or not depends upon ur destiny

Dont know if my message will reach to you...
I remember reading a book called " Jigyasuo ke liye"(For the curious). In that book, parts from different books which critised Rssb and its gurus and its teachings had been taken. Those books were written by people who were sikhs or different gurus of santmat or teachers of yoga etc. That book wasnt able to bring any doubt in my mind.But since I have very less chances of going to satsangs or having a discussion with an initiated satsangi, I cant get answers to many questions that have come to my mind while going through Sir Brian Hines's blog.I wish that you publish a book which have extracts from writings of ex(i dont know if thats the right word)initiated satsangis like Brian.
well sorry but I dont know how to write a letter to you. And how to send it.. and .. I havent send a letter before in my life...
also I dont know if emailing this at rssb order desk would be right...

Hi Brian,

(Full disclosure: I follow the Radha Soami path)

Your stance on Radha Soami is logical according to your experience and you're obviously very passionate about helping those who want to leave a situation they may feel socially pressured to be a part of. I respect your strength in leaving because it was not the right place for you.

Your critiques of the judgmental clouds that loom over satsang are very accurate. There is definitely an air of superiority that some people seem to carry (it's probably best to avoid these interactions or at least keep them to a minimum).

Your blog brought up questions that are not voiced by anyone on the path. It is socially unacceptable to question any aspect of satsang openly. This is most likely due to Indian culture. Elders are respected at all times and clan mentality dictates that you don't speak ill of them. Even if I did want to question, I would have nobody to direct my questions to. This poses a problem because in Western culture we're taught to question everything.

Coming across your blog a few years ago, I was finally able to start questioning why I'm on the path and for this, I thank you. Since I read your posts, I've been struggling with this question and wrestling with a few different aspects of the teachings (and, perhaps most importantly, my place within their framework). I have come to realize that I am at a point in my life when I truly CAN leave the Radha Soami path but I choose not to.

Being a Canadian woman born into a highly dysfunctional Indian family, I received support when I didn't have it anywhere else. Growing up I was essentially abandoned as a child of divorce and it was in Satsang that I took solace. I clung to the Path until satsangis became my family and I found a place where I truly felt like I belonged.

Satsang taught me strength, resilience, patience and kindness. I could very easily have gone the cold way of my mother, but I haven't, and that's largely due to the love I felt I was receiving from Baba ji through personal meetings, question-answers and satsangs.

Now, as a grown woman in my 30s, I no longer need this solace and I no longer need to depend on this community. Truthfully, I don't. I'm fully independent and my social circle is no longer closely knit with satsangis. In fact, I live half way across the world from where I grew up where there isn't a satsang, seva site or even a single satsangi that I know of.

That being said, the Path is still very much a part of my life. I still follow a vegetarian diet, meditate and read RS books. I attend satsang very rarely when I visit North America, I never put money into seva, but in my heart I still follow the RS way of life because it makes sense to me. Being a vegetarian, not harming other living creatures, being truthful, meditating and having a spiritual teacher all make sense to me.

The Path may no longer serve you and you may see this as blind faith or the way of a "sheep". But I am educated, I hold two degrees, I have a professional career and I also have the option of leaving the Path at any time since I no longer have social, familial or even geographical ties to it, but I don't. I stay. Not because my social life revolves around it, not because I am having an identity crisis and not even because I have nowhere else to go. I stay because I benefit from meditation, the teachings of nonviolence, and from Baba ji's satsangs when I get to hear them.

As much as you are free to leave, others are free to stay. I do NOT judge you for leaving if you feel that was the best choice for you. In fact, I am impressed by your courage because many people might have become 'pretend' satsangis if they were in your place. On a similar vein, I respectfully ask of you not to judge me for staying. Both staying and leaving are personal choices and I think we need to participate in dialogue in which we respectfully disagree with one another without the name calling (because there is quite a bit of satsangi bashing on your blog). I wish I could change every satsangi person and ask that they NOT judge people for leaving and not have a superiority complex but I can't. All I can say is: not all satsangis are that way. There are some of us who completely agree with your decision and understand why you feel the way you do...and we don't judge you.

Sant Mat is not for all, but it is not a cult. It asks me only to sit daily to focus loving attention within my own consciousness; to live in the world and earn a living; to live as clear-headed a life as possible; to become a more compassionate person. And it asks a hell of a lot of patience. The Gurus have all modeled these things, even the current Guru.

As an initiate of Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, I have had to adjust to Baba Ji's seeming need to rattle my/our comfortable box. He seems to need to diminish the dogmatic paper-trail and the romanticized concepts of the inner path. And he seems to need to increase numbers of Dera residents & non-resident Indian visitors; to improve their everyday lives. I trust His family money will only continue to help these concerns as it traditionally has done from the days of Sawan Singh Ji. As a small example, even today the dining room serves a delicious kala channa from Maharaji's farm. Baba Ji's personality is far from Maharaji's even with age; I no longer think Baba Ji walks too fast, though he is a bit of a smart ass--a loving one at that. He is mind-blowing, whether sitting still in darshan or compassionately and wisely answering a long, obnoxious questioner.

Being a disciple is such a strange step for the mind to take. I can understand how the mind--its fear of change, its rational tendency to distrust, and its impatience with mediation's payoff--would cause a disciple to want to bail from the path. Regardless of what we think we're each doing, we're each on the truth-seeker path. Judge not, either way.

In my recent first visit to Dera after decades of initiation, after a period of grief that I wasn't visiting Hazur's old Dera, Baba Ji showed me in many ways that the Sant Mat gurus are all one Guru. There were 500 international guests for a big fall session. Its funny how people rush to sit in the first rows of an evening meeting with the Master, as if just being in the small room with the "Father/Son/Holy Ghost" isn't enough. Someone told me a saying that rang true: "If you want to see the Guru, sit in the front. If you want the Guru to see you, sit in the back."

It strikes me as I write this comment that this blog site is working hard to see the Guru.

When Maharaji--Charan Singh--was asked decades ago if he had a successor in mind, he said that he did, and that "He is already meditating day and night."

In the late 70s, a friend, a young satsangi man complained to Maharaji that the Dera guest meetings were getting too large; this young man basically told the Guru that he didn't like sharing the darshan, the dialogue, the space in Master's tea garden with 80 other people from around the world. The Master had only one response to this fear of growth and change: He laughed.

You - "SantMat is not for all, but it is not a cult."
Maybe "Sant Mat" is not a cult, and it is definitely not for all but who can deny that the current guru has at least done nothing to discourage the growth and maintenance of an elitist cult of westerners that visit India regularly and follow him around the globe. Not unfair to say he has purposely excluded most low-income western followers by only visiting venues in the highest real estate markets with accommodations affordable only to the well-off and usually on dates that most of us tossers have to work.
If you know any of the mugs that jetset around the globe to get a glimpsgasm of BabJi's private jet, you know they are members of some kind of cult. Whether you call that cult "SantMat" or not must be your own karma. hahaha.

Alan, in this post I didn't say "SantMat is not for all, but it is not a cult." In fact, I don't remember ever saying that. But regardless, thanks for your comment.

I will always remember a man in the middle of half a million bandhara attending people
with amputated legs - half length femurs - on a piece of wood - a 60 x 60 cm with 4 small 8 cm wheels , hurrying to the satsang , pushing himself
with two 30 cm sticks, amazingly fast

but what I most remember is the glance in his eyes
like if he gave the same Darshan as Charan
and I don't think he could read

I do not believe that Gurinder while majestically and obediantly with the plane of course , preparing His Congregation
for the turbulent and almost crazy planetarian times that will come
and the around a billion initiates to come, . .
leaves these kinds of seemingly poor Souls ( many descended from extremely high planes_of_consciousness
( avoiding the words regions here )

I see Gurinder is an amazing SatGuru, bringer of Sound and Light
and even David Lane said that :-)


Alone let him constantly meditate in solitude on that which is salutary for his soul, for he who meditates in solitude attains supreme bliss - Guru Nanak

Sir i would request you to write a piece for Shahid Kapoor,who was once influenced by your book.

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