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May 11, 2011


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I have raised this point before.

Charan Singh is Gurinder Singh's predecessor by whose authority Gurinder is now in power.

Charan Singh wrote Sant Mat books which contain teachings that Gurinder, by accounts I have heard, discounts in his talks.

According to Sant Mat and Gurinder's master and predecesor, Charan Singh, all perfect masters have the same path to teach of the need for a perfect master who has reached the highest region of Sat lok and whose method is Surat Shabd Yoga, the highest of all spiritual paths and the only true path to God and to our true eternal home of ecstatic bliss free from the sufferings of karma and the illusions of Maya.

Now Gurinder comes along and says a lot of the Sant Mat dogma is hogwash, to condense his heretical views into one convenient slang term.

If indeed the teachings of his predecessor, and the predessors before him are "hogwash", then who is he? By what authority or evidence does Gurinder make his claims?

Who is the real master? Charan? Gurinder? Neither?

If I were a devotee of this "path" I would be very disturbed by this turn of events.

What do you satsangis have to say about this?

I was initiated by Charan Singh in 1970. I have long since quit my association with this quasi religio-cult, but I stuck with it for 20-25 years. I know the "old" Sant Mat very well. The "new" is something different.

The "new" is not just minor adjustments in terminology and approach to suit the changing mores of culture, audience and the times. The "new" appears to be a deep and fundamental change.

For you satsangis, which is the real deal? How do you explain Gurinder's dismissal of his guru's teachings?

Who do you believe?

Dear Brian,

I am not so sure about this. From various quarters I have heard that nothing has really changed and that much of this reported Sant Mat 3.0 is coming from interpretations or spins from other disciples.

Certainly, the books haven't changed. Do you have confirmation of this from sources you regard as credible?

The very notion of initiation is predicated upon Sant Mat 1.0.....

Of course, maybe the reports you are hearing are more attuned to what Gugu is up to.

Thanks in advance,


David, all I know is that several people have left comments on blog posts which, independently, tell the same story about what Gurinder Singh is saying in his English satsangs.

So far I haven't heard from anyone who was at those meetings who disputes what those people are relating. This leads me to take those accounts of Gurinder's altered Sant Mat message fairly seriously.

Hi Dave and Brian,
Ironically, both you fellows
are correct.

They have not changed the books.
Gurinder's satsang leaders are
slow to change the dogma, possibly
from stunned disbelief.

This is the same disbelief Kirpal
Singh followers had when they found
out Kirpal had written a will. Not
to mention, left his son as successor,
which he said he would not do and
had not done.

Beas is now in this same catch 22 situation
that happenned to Kirpal people.
Kirpal only reversed his own lies.

But, Gurinder is reversing long established
dogmas of other Gurus from his lineage.

When Gurinder first came online, I remember
the local satsang leader saying, "Gurinder
has said we are to stop saying the Guru
has power. He does not want us to say he
has power."

It became obvious he was about to take a different path right from the start.

But, his live satsangs rang the same old dogma.

He wanted to change the dogma, but was stuck
with it.

Now days, Gurinder has more confidence.

He is indeed saying to smaller live sessions
the things Brian is reporting.

But, he seems to only say them to Western

With Indian audiences he remains mute on
dogma, or skates around it.

He has been asked thousands of times
about Faquir Chand the Unknowing Sage
and Radhasoami Beas Secret History.

Reports from Beas reps to me confirm he
is not denying the validity of either.
He is not denying Chand. Regarding my
Secret History he says it is correct,
but they have a different interpretation
of the documented events.

So far, Rajinder will not agree with
David Lane or Mike Williams. And, agressively attacks us as people with

Gurinder said he wishes he could get rid
of all the Beas books.

That's a very strong statement.

Gurinder is in the process of changing
the direction the charging elephant of
sant mat dogma

Many people have reported here Gurinder
is changing the teachings from attending
live satsangs.

They are correct.

But, it depends on his audience. He won't
say the same thing to vast multitudes at Beas.

Many are in denial at what Gurinder
is saying. They are shocked as Kirpal
people were.

The heavy crust of Indian dogma will
take a long time for Gurinder to

I don't envy his position.

Hi Tara,
I will answer your question on this

But, I would like to mention as
an addendum to my last post, Gurinder
will not remain moot forever.

His personal ideas seem to coincide
with Faquir Chand. But, he has
to break the news slowly.

I believe as he gets older and
especially near death, he will write
something, which may change everything.

Hi Tara again,
I remained in sant mat for 25 years
off and on. Was initiated by most
groups and attended all except Agra
proper. But, was initiated by Prof. Dr.
Agam Mathur of Peepal Mundi in the Agra
tradition. Great grandson of Salig Ram.

Even went to Dayal Bagh satsangs, but
did not take initiation as Dr. Lal
admitted he was not a Guru.

Basically, I floated from one group
to the next. Kept going back to groups
I liked. Not unusual for me to go
to a Kirpal satsang one week and a
Beas satsang the next, or a Yogananda
type satsang the next, or a Gurdjieff
Ouspensky meeting the next.

Was going to many at the same time.
Spent my life investigating Gurus
and masters.

As I have mentioned before, Gurus
parrot each other and are keenly
aware of each other. They are

Dogma flows in a stream. It is
adjusted for science from time
to time.

Someday only science will be left.

And, all the Gurus ..... gone.

The desire to ensure that one's progeny is well-cared for is natural. When this is not tempered with intelligent social concern, the attempt to get more and more for one's direct family and it's downline becomes rampant. Gurinder shares this unabated appetite with many of the African Politicians coming to light at present.

If gurus watch each other keenly, and copy what one another says, then maybe they are in competition on many levels. Perhaps Gurinder, having been born into a satsangi family, doesn't know much about sant mat. Perhaps he's not read many of the books or done much meditation and therefore is living off his wits, salesmanship and the glory given to him by his disciples.

He is using borrowed words and is simply softening up his western disciples to accept it all.

To David Lane (or anyone interested),

As I stated above, I have not been associated with Sant Mat or any other spiritual group for many years.

I have not attended any satsangs since the early 90's except for one in Sedona a couple of years ago which I attended with some devotee friends. It was the same old, same old, but Gurinder was not there.

I have heard from the several satsangis that I am still in contact with that Gurinder is indeed saying things in his talks of the SantMat 3.0 nature and is not going along with all of the Sant Mat 1.0 dogma.

The reaction from these folks is favorable. They like the new spin and the more casual, less dogmatic approach of Gurinder. They enjoy his relaxed and more laid back style.

But spin is spin. Which do you believe? Where is all this coming from?

Who is this Gurinder Singh?

In fact, who really was Charan, Sawan, Jaimal, Saligram, Seth Shiv Dayal or any of these characters?

How can we know?

One thing I can say from personal experience. Charan, in his informal moments, was a nice gentleman with a good sense of humor.

Was he God incarnate and the savior of millions within whom he placed an astral doppleganger of himself? Probably not.

David Lane is a hypocrite. I sent him an email a while back and he didn't respond to it. I didn't write anything bad to him. I merely asked him a few simple honest questions. You see, i am so beneath him he couldn't find the time to reply.

This man is a gross hypocrite.

It is almost certain that the cognitive dissonence in him has reached the utmost levels of despair. His schizophrenia is available for all interested parties to see. He even writes about his double minded opinions and displays it for the whole world to see on google.

He claims that there is light and sound experiences. He claims that anybody can access them. But he also claims that Fakir Chand once told him things that would border on the threshold of miraculous where anybody else would be concerned. He claims that the light and sound are merely brain artifacts also. Is this man therefore off his rocker?

I think so.

What kind of impression can you get from a man that claims that spiritual experiences only exist in a brain but yet also says that fakir chand revealed supernatural evidence to him? This is the height of hypocrisy. This man does not know what he is talking about. He claims consciousness derives from a brain but when something occurs that refutes his materalism, such that information enters his brain from outside of his brain DIRECTLY, and in non-materialistic ways, there is a problem.

Please, everybody, do not take this man seriously. He is supposed to be a professor. What is he a professor of? Philosophy? Well, that is easy. It doesn't take a genius to become a specialist in speculation.

A tree is known by its fruits. The Fruits of delusion are poison. David Lane is a poisonous tree. Don't listen or take heed from his screed.

He enjoys all things material and claims to be a spiritual person. Look at his webpage about the book of Bhrigu. The first time he came across it he said he was impressed and couldn't understand how the information was so accurate. But later on, when he had a little teeny weeny time to think about it, he claimed it was false information and probably faked by the indian people that showed him it in the first place! As if they are so clever they can concoct his astrological reading in a matter of minutes, purge it on some ancient manuscript paper, and come up with sanskrit writing that mentions his personal specific details - all in the space of literal minutes!

What a numskull this man is! UNfortunately, the internet is chock full of his ramblings when it comes to these matters, and that doesn't help many people. Many innocent, humble, spiritually inclined people that know there is more to life than meets the eye. That know there is something rather than nothing. That know the divine undercurrent of EVERYTHING. Something rather special that pervades life, something that teaches without coercion, something sublime, something REAL. Something that says David Lane is full of utter bullshit.

David Lane, you are lying to yourself and you know it.

You ought to take your hubristic trash off of the internet so that no google search can ever find it. I don't appreciate your lies.

(i am not affiliated with any sant mat organisation. I don't have any guru. I don't believe in the sound and light radhasoami teaching. I just think David lane is wrong)

Credible sources?

Well, there were approx 350, mostly westerners, present when Babaji Gurinder used the word ‘rubbish’ to describe RSSB teachings regarding the inner planes/ Gods/ radiant form et al. That was at the Xmas Dera session 3 / 4 years ago. The word just popped out well before he had time to think twice &/or button his lip.

And, yes, with the laughter that immediately followed – most clearly thinking he was joking / having a laugh – he looked quite embarrassed if not sheepish for a minute or two as he flicked his gaze left/right, particularly to that contingent of Punjabis et al who always sat in the tent on RHS facing him.

Who asked the question? One of Charan Singh’s old ‘hippy’ cohort, survival of the fittest / ex-turban wearer.

And, who went on to parody the whole episode during the Xmas show? He was later appointed by Babaji G to Haynes and delivered one of the English language satsangs at the subsequent national satsang. During this satsang – plain as day – even Babaji did a double-take at one really crook statement re. shabd. So, only speculating, but figures that this was another appointment aptly fitting the mould of clueless westerners & their concepts!

Kundalini Awakening

Other Sadhaka-s experience subtle inner sounds, the ringing of bells,
chirping of birds, singing of crikets, drums, cymbals, lutes, flutes,
and the noise of thunder; these sounds continue for several years.
By ceaseless practice obstructions are removed and the Pranik current
passes freely and properly along the Sushumna and enters the area
of the brain.



Listening to the sound current is
kundalini yoga.

Watching the lights of the chakras
is kundalini yoga.

All according to theory.

People are strange in that they want someone else to tell them who they are. RS 3.0 sounds like it's coming clean. The Pope may be well advised to do so as well.

To David (not sure of the last name):

I feel bad that you didn't get a letter back from me.

I would be most happy to write you back. Sometimes I do get backlogged with emails, but I don't want to ignore you or anyone else who have contrarian ideas.

If you wish, you can write to me at [email protected] and I would be happy to correspond with you.

thanks in advance


P.S. As a point of clarification, I think I have gotten more skeptical over the years and that even applies to my interpretations of Faqir Chand.

I don't think anything miraculous is going on, but rather--just as Faqir said--it is part and parcel of the human experience.

Now, if something is indeed trans-rational or mystical, we should see some overwhelming evidence to support it.

I haven't seen such, but perhaps you have something that indicates otherwise.

quote David Lane :
"if something is indeed trans-rational
or mystical, we should see some overwhelming
evidence to support it."

Did not Faquir Chand say he would return if
he could to you, Dave ?

Has not Faquir Chand returned ?

Dave, only 2,000 copies of the The Unknowing
Sage were sold. I bought 2 myself.

If only 2,000 were sold, why are
thousands of people talking about
Faquir Chand ?

Why is it the number one topic ?

Why are Gurinder and Rajinder having to
deal with an onslaught of continuous
questions about Faquir Chand ?

I thought it was Faquir Chand who was given
permission by Sawan to change the teachings.


Has not Faquir Chand's prediction the
Truth Always Wins come true ?

Has not the fortress of Sant Mat not tumbled
down in the last 10 years ?

Does anyone still believe what they used to,
about the theology, or history of RS ?

Do you think this was all an accident Dave ?

You don't think this was a miracle ?

I suggest the reason you can't see the
miracle is that you were part and parcel

None of us wanted to get involved in this
type of event, but were forced by
circumstances beyond our control.

All this was meant to happen.

We are part of a miracle.

None of us wanted to get involved.

Not you, not me, not Brian.

Something besides ourselves has caused
this to happen.

Yet, isn't it interesting we are atheists
being used like puppets by an unknown force ?

I have to tell you Dave, I am an atheist.
Yet, there isn't a day goes by, I don't wish
I could throw myself into the arms of God.


Someone should simply tape Gurinder's Satsangs and questions and answers, then broadcast them for everyone's interest. In our neck of the woods, there aren't many young incoming satsangis. The manner inwhich sant mat is communicated to them, no doubt seems too backward, conservative and anal. People communicate quickly and easily these days and not much is hidden. The idea of cutting oneself off mentally from people would be considered a self inflicted psychiatric disorder. Being upfront and connected is recognised as healthy today.

I still wonder what Gurinder got in to his mind when he declared cheese to be against the vows the first time he got the chance. What was he thinking :) ? Vegetarian do have a lot of trouble getting enough protein at least when they use a muscle now and then. I suspect it was a trick to get us quiet? Taking some toy away to get our respect and attention? I think we should be careful with him...
As for David Lane. I'm glad someone is asking the right questions about the sources of the information. If everyone was that careful the discussion would be much cleaner and sharper. We don't need to attack David because all his information is documented without him. So focus on the information!

Tara, do you believe it may be possible that telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition and psychokinesis exists? It is well documented that those things, do indeed, exist. OBEs probably have some kind of reality as well. But it seems to me that "God" doesn't exist as us humans tend to think of it. I certainly have come to the conclusion that God is probably some kind of impersonal force like gravity and doesn't exist in any traditional sense.

On the contrary, i think the universe represents a kind of inherent consciousness and us humans, having self consciousness and existence in this universe, are somehow making up God as we go along whereas we are really gods and we don't quite know it.

I don't feel cheated or upset about self-styled gurus that are conmen and cult leaders who take people for a ride, any more. I used to. It doesn't take long for the information to sink in and realise that we are all just human beings with the same circumstances in life and the same vulnerabilities and capacities as each other, more or less. The trouble is that some people try to become bigger than others by making false claims. When it comes to the guru business these claims are very subtle and even very intelligent persons can be hoodwinked. But eventually reason steps up to the plate with its questions and doubts and pulverises straight through the unanswered questions such gurus leave in their wake, alerting us all to their phonyness.

If there is a God, i don't believe such a being would put humans on earth without some kind of reason. Hence i am not interested in philosophies that claim that life here on earth is bad and that we need to escape the wheel of birth and death. It makes a mockery of life itself - the miracle of life in this very universe we are all partaking of together.

Haven't tried melon martini before but it sounds pretty good :)

Thanks Tara and Nietzsche for your post on the other thread ‘Gurinder v -3.0’.

When I read them, I don’t know why but outside I went for a smoke and a cry. I feel like my youngest son, when told that there was no such thing as Santa Claus, he cried and kept shouting “there is, there is, I don’t believe it!!” Reassuring him that well there was still a Santa Claus but it’s your parents, didn’t seem to do the trick. What a bummer-your parents!!! Well I feel the same. You all seem so sure.......... and yet I’m not.

At the past Christmas session, the last comment I said to BJ was that all I wanted was the truth.
I find it hard sometimes talking about someone and not saying it directly to their face (BJ) but usually these questions come up when I am not at Dera or elsewhere, where I have a chance to put them directly. I don’t have his mobile number or his email!! :))) My meditation is not giving me any answers, or maybe this IS the answer – question what’s true for me. As I tell myself, I don’t care what the truth looks like but how do I know if it's the truth and if I'm not fooling myself?

From here down I had already written and about to post when I happened to see Tara’s & Nietzsche’s post. So excuse me for not updating if there are any repetitions, but I am what I am and it is what it is!

I have a wee question to David Lane or anyone else that can shed some light – if the astral form of a master is our own projection of the mind and as David (Lane) said in his video (Re: 1988 JR – not JR out of Dallas ;), and also giving an example about NDE’s, how a catholic will see Jesus and an Indian will see Nanak or whatever Guru/teaching they are into, yes that makes sense to me.
BUT what about the story of the Brooks (I think they were American) and according to the SM literature, I think it was Great Master who appeared inside to them and they never heard, met or saw the GM? (I can’t look it up myself as I have said, given all RS books away) Does anyone know about this story and how true it is?

Ok, even if it is our own projection of our mind at the time of death, and we do project, I think I would prefer BJ than let’s say my dog I was fond of (if I had one) or my bank statement (it wouldn’t be worth projecting!) or whatever attachment I had!

Or does BJ mean when he says we have concepts that He will meet us after death, that if we are not sincere, earnest or putting in any effort and think at the time of our death He’ll be there, we are mistaken as we will go with what our mind is most attached to?

Or does he mean we are all one, so who meets who, where is there to go and with whom???

I think I’m for the ‘we are all one’. But hold on though – where does that leave me with the meditation? Do I give it up and just do a self enquiry job like Ramana teaches. I do question any reactions or negative things that come up in me but surely there is more???? :)))

As I think it was Mike who said, BJ seems to be making changes, though slowly. Imo he has always been trying to make these changes, get us to see – especially Him as ‘just like one of us’ or as he said in satsang a few years back ‘I could be a big fraud up here, with the gift of the gab!” My take on this is ‘wake up’. Look at what you are doing? Do you KNOW who or what I am? Go find out...... Find out what’s real. Find out for yourselves. Definitely, tough job for him!

It’s like no matter how I try, it is all beliefs or most of it. Leaves me feeling like not being complete. I don’t like this feeling of ‘NOT KNOWING’. I seem to be getting more and more confused. I have even tried giving ‘this whole thing up’. But I can’t seem to do that either! I think I am trying to ‘get’ something, always looking for something other than what is.

Peter Ralston talks in his book, that we are never afraid of the unknown – we are projecting something onto the unknown. “If you’re about to step into a dark room and you’re afraid, it isn’t because you don’t know what’s in there; it’s the fact that you think something bad might be in there.

A question for David Lane – David do you have a blog or website where you post your latest opinions about all this?As from your video I know you studied all this)( I have no problems with you changing your viewpoint – as far as I can make out, everyone does this. Actually to me it is a mark of an open minded person! I am sure you have heard the statement ‘it’s a woman’s prerogative to change her mind’ well I think it’s a man’s too :))

Does anyone else feel like me or are you all happy with what you know/believe or don’t know/believe????

PS Brian, you never got back to me re: what made you leave RS – a major thing or a nagging feeling over the years? If you don’t want to say, maybe (politely) tell me it’s none of my business! Marina ;)

Marina, I've got your comment flagged in my email inbox folder. Just haven't gotten around to answering your question yet. You're right -- I've talked quite a bit about what led me to leave RSSB in various blog posts. So all I can do, really, is either point you to those posts or try to summarize what I've said before.

I'm also behind on listing all of my blog posts on the following linked page, but you could scroll through the titles in the "Radha Soami Satsang Beas" category and look at the posts that seem to answer your question. See:

David says: "it may be possible that telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition and psychokinesis exists? It is well documented that those things, do indeed, exist. OBEs probably have some kind of reality as well."

David, please present the supposed "well documented" evidence that you are referring to.

Others have tried to say the same thing as you are, but the fact remains that there is yet no credible evidence or proof that any of those ("telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition and psychokinesis") are real. Don't just assume that you can claim that, and it will be accepted blindly, without presenting your supposed "well documented" proof. Anyone can SAY anything, however, merely saying it does not automatically make it true.


its clear that you are still buying into sant mat and the rs cult. very much so. so you are not thinking rationally or objectively. your identity is heavily invested and entangled in this cult and belief system, and you will rationalize whatever its guru says or does. this is obvious to me when reading your comments.

you will continue to justify it, and you will also continue to ignore the signs... that is, until you finally decide that you value the truth, more than you value a belief system. i suggest that you try to get out of your head, and into your heart. your head (intellect) is telling you that you need a so-called "sant", "a master". your head is telling you that if you just believe and do what he says, that some other person can give you salvation. but your heart is free of all of that. your heart will guide you to truth. your heart will reveal what your head never could.

you have bought into the radha soami guru cult. you have lost the innate wisdom and clarity that you had as a child. return to that. re-discover that. its buried within you. the RS guru cult has lead you astray, away from your self, and into confusion and bewilderment. come back to your true self. RS cannot give that to you. only you can.


Some brevity :)

As I go through your comments above, it seems in most cases you answer your own questions.

Because your thinking regarding this matter, imo, is neither rational nor objective you feel at conflict with your inner truth.

I think tAo is absolutely correct. You have your own innate wisdom. Listen to your gut and follow your heart.

Hi Marina,
Welcome to this club. You are always welcome here.

We are just a bunch of lost souls ourselves.

But, we comfort each other in our
unknowing state.

And, tell tales of our foolish adventures.

Once in a while we say something intelligent.

We love you.

Please forgive us in advance.

Hi Tara, Gurinder is not crying, he is laughing and joking a great deal. He is also scrambling information, making money, and living a fabulous life. Why cry on account of him and the faith your family puts in him and his predecessors?

The citizens of the North African Arab states shed light on their self-indulged, corrupt leaders and ousted them. They could do this because they spoke up, were informed and interconnected, unlike their parents and grandparents.

Who knows what they will get next, but they certainly didn't want what their parents were happy to allow. They also knew how to remove that rule through the social media.

The feeling I get after reading is that we all feel like we lost something. Did we lose the magic in our lives? Did we lose a father figure? Did we lose the part of our self that is playing the guru? I think when you look closer than you see there is nothing lost because we either never had it or it is still there if it is all truth as you wish to believe. Nothing changes much. I myself have the biggest problems with other Satsangi's that still try to make me humble or push the diet down my throat. I'm also having problems with them when they try to push their worldview that is mostly depressing cynicism down my head chakra. On the other hand I still sometimes feel the hand of the master opening doors for me like I used to feel but I also experience spiritual miracles from independent sources :) I feel there is a lot of spiritual advise and help available it just does not have the typical RS pattern.
About the question how a Satsangi can see the master inside without knowing him yet. I've heard a similar story in my neighborhood about someone seeing Charan. What did they see? Perhaps Charan was projecting himself. Perhaps another close Satsangi had build a huge projection that started an astral life of its own? Did Cahran know about it? I think not. To know about a million projections would require all his daytime and he would not have the time to think a single thought or eat a meal :) So something is going on in our subconsciousness and it has something to do with the guru's. I remember being a Christian long ago and then I used to feel the holy ghost and witness all kinds of miracles. I just never had a clear image with the holy ghost, in line with the Christian teachings. Also I know that the part that we think is our normal self can be just a small part of our enormous psyche that is capable of playing a game with us that is very frightening when you start realizing. What makes you think of an appointment or forget, what gives the impulse to think? What makes you say something different than you planned to. what inspires you all day. Where do our thoughts come from? Who are we and where does the world come from? :) The sense of self we have is a very small part of a huge thing of intelligence I think.
What bothers me the most in RS is that they blame the thinking (mind) in stead of the will. They say our anger comes from our thinking so we have to stop thinking. But I believe our anger comes from our total being and our thoughts are far to weak to control these impulses. It is like we are trying to stop a fire by blowing at it. We need a much stronger force to control our temper. Schopenhauer said that this force could be empathy...So why blame the messenger (that is the mind) when we should use empathy like Buddha and the Dalai Lama teaches, a huge counter force to the ego.
Also the ego politics in RS are over simplified in just not giving the praise to someone that deserves it (quoting Tara :)).
Than the diet. I've already said a lot about it. It weakens my body and mind (B vitamines and Omega 3 play a huge role in mental illness).
And now there is also the confusing of concepts going on that weakens our mind even further.
All these tenets seem to point one direction of enslaving us. I don't think that is positive and it emerged from the social structure where the guru lives and found a survival pattern in agriculture with Satsangi's working the land for the guru.
For us I don't see how it makes me a better human. It makes me isolated, only concerned with my own spiritual progress. Running away from open minded people. I don't like that. :(
So I always come here after I met Satsangi's as a way to ventilate :)
Do I know what is truth is? No, still in the process... :) Do I care? No. It keeps me busy.

I would like to add that you could compare these mind directed techniques to what is know about mind control.

Mind control to me is defined as swimming is a darkened fishbowl where you think only what you are allowed to think. Critics are called evil, Kal the evil force, the mind is the great opponent.

What is the use of mind control? Most of the times the controler gets what he wants out of it and that is usually sex, money and most of all the feeling of power.

What is the spiritual benefit of mind control?
You meditate as instructed.
But do you need mind control to meditate as instructed? Is there not another way to motivate you? More positive?

What is the negative impact of mind control?
Regression in you thought system to the point where you become like a mindless baby.
losing the ability to use reasoning and logic to survive in life, chose a mate, plan a goal and realise it.

Still mankind survived with mind control a long time. The question is do you want to live a mindless life and trust the person that is controlling you 100%? Is it necessary or good? Some cases are clear evil and you are in a lot of danger when your mind is controlled.

Tara, most of the time i have meditated i just felt relaxed as well. Unless i meditate on God. Then weird things start occuring. My hands go into mudras, my back straightens itself automatically, my tongue goes backwards, i feel a sense of peace that is a feeling that differs from relaxation. I'm sure if i concentrated on God and meditated longer that peace would increase and turn into bliss. My breathing has dropped to 2 breaths per minute once. And i have experienced strange internal sounds - something like a busy radio station with lots of voices, someone quietly saying my name, evil laughter, and one time some kind of whispering voice that sounded like my conscience speaking.

A lot of other times as i have stared into the darkness with my eyes closed i have seen specks of light appear. It is just like a little luminous star that resembles a light afterimage on the retina. But the more i look the more they come. I don't notice anything like that when i am not looking.

I have experienced precognition many times. Sometimes it is a visual image with incredible detail but most of the time it is more like a kind of subtle image and feeling. Many years ago i was playing a sports game and i got a flashback of a dream and i knew what was about to occur within seconds of the image so i told a friend of mine who was near me what would happen and it happened exactly like i saw it. It may seem like a mundane thing, and i agree, but it gives you some kind of belief in something higher.

I experience a kind of telepathy with someone close to me but i can't say whether it is telepathy or just coincidence.

I have seen through my closed eyelids while waking up.

Psychokinesis isn't magic. It is the ability to affect objects with the power of the mind. There seems to be some evidence that suggests it could exist but it's one of those things you would have to see with your own eyes to believe.

Automatic yoga movements like mudras do not occur with the conscious intent of the meditator.

One of the best times to practice meditation is early in the morning. The reason is because the circadian rhythms of the body and the stages of REM sleep contribute to a kind of total pratyahara and you can see light and hear sounds and have Out-of Body experiences. The energy in the nerves retires inside to the spine, internal organs and brain and the body becomes stiffly paralysed. Once this happens, the senses are disengaged with the outside world and the internal world opens up.

When we are in REM sleep, the eyes and eyelids flicker and move about. So if you keep the eyes still and concentrated slightly above and looking into the distance, the spiritual eye starts to form.

I have heard some chakra sounds. The sound of crickets and a bumblebee. You think that the sound is coming from outside but when you check there is nothing there... When the energy moves up to the heart chakra you hear the sound of bells. If you are a body conscious person the energy doesn't even rise to the heart chakra, it stays below. But once it gets to that point you are disconnected from body consciousness and can take the energy higher. When it gets to the throat you hear the sound of ocean waves or something like a waterfall. When it goes up to the third eye (medulla oblongata) you hear the AUM sound, which is a mixture of all the lower chakra sounds combined.

Please look up Michael Persinger and "No More Secrets" on something like Youtube. It is a 50 minute video where he explains his experiments with magnetic fields and the brain. He has proven that telepathy exists. Skeptics used to use him as evidence that spiritual experiences and God are simply hallucinations produced by the brain when he induced such experiences with his "God Helmet". Now he is saying something that skeptics would hate.

Go to a website like Astral Pulse and look at all the posts about OBEs. They talk about keeping the body asleep but the mind awake, how the body gets a flood of energetic vibrations in conscious sleep paralysis, they hear internal sounds and then "roll" out of their bodies. No skeptic will explain this "vibration". I have experienced it once myself and i can tell you that it is real.

A friend of mine experiences ghostly activity. Objects go missing and then turn up later in the exact place they were last seen. Voices and sounds are heard that mimic familiar sounds, like for example the toilet flushing when nobody is using it.

Just recently this friend came to stay at my place. She says she has something in her astrological chart called a ghost yoga, which means that for some reason she attracts ghosts. When she was here the radiator pipes in the house started making loud banging noises coming from strange directions, like omnipresent and localised at the same time, and the house boiler started to make a loud humming noise. I have lived here for over 10 years and this has never happened before. A couple of weeks ago some drinks were put on the floor of the utility room almost in such a position that if you weren't careful you could trip over them they were so obvious. It was 2 plastic bags full of cans, about 30 cans. They simply disappeared for 2 weeks and then suddenly appeared in exactly the same place. I have 4 other witnesses to this and there is nothing suspicious about them.

So, my message to you would be to go with what you truly feel is the truth in your heart. There ARE fantastic, almost unreal things that occur in this life. If you are sincere, just think and pray to God when meditating and see if anything does happen. You don't need any mantra, you don't have to think about silly things like sach khand etc. You just have to keep your body completely still and think of God without getting frustrated. It is important to keep the body posture straight so that the energy can flow upwards and the nerves don't get pinched. Oh and look at Yogani's website and the forum there, and look at the thousands of posts of people describing their experiences. Can you tell me that all of it is bosh and bunk? Don't you think something real is going on?


Hi Dave,

I was just having a glance over some of the points that you've put down and they do conjer up some interest. I haven't been initiated myself into the radha soami path but I have done quite a bit of research into it. At first, I just happened to get led into it as my whole family followed that path, ever since I was a child but for some reason, my intuition was telling me something different.

I was always keen to learn about the 'naam' that was given in the R.S faith, as I had an urge to recite it but I have recently found out that the 'naam' is not even correct. This has actually been proven too and I'll be glad to share that with you.

Infact, you can see the proof yourself. There have been a few videos posted on youtube by a spirited individual who goes by the name of "Rampal ji". He humbly refers himself to be a 'daas' (or servant) which I have never heard Baba Gurinder Singh refer himself to as. Anyway, the following link can get you started:


All the videos are in Hindi so I hope you'll be able to understand them as I still find it quite challenging. You can also type in youtube "paanch naam" and you'll get the videos accounting the history of the 5 names and who they actually belong to. Here's the link:


There are many other points that I'd love to share with you and anyone else in the search for truth, which should never been hidden. I look forward to hearing from you on these points then we'll discuss other related matters in our next encounter.

Many thanks and God bless


Well folks, thanks for your replies. On reading the comments this morning (tAo & Tucson), the bit about me not being rational or objective, my first thought was ‘course I am, how can they not see it?’ A wee while later I returned and re-read them and began to look at myself and see – is any of this true? Well, honest to ‘God’ yep, more tears flowing away. It actually felt nice; it was a sweet crying if you can understand, although I didn’t know what I was crying about! I feel it had to do with sadness. Does this mean I have to let go of BJ? I think we can all admit to wanting to be saved sometime in our life. When I got into RS I wanted to be saved and also I wasn’t too fussy on this particular life either, didn’t want to face ‘life’. This has totally changed! My crying this morning, was not about being afraid of this life but ‘where I might go in the next life’.

It boils down for me to those, OH so underlying, driven core beliefs and assumptions I have about myself – wanting to be liked, wanting approval, not being good enough, being faulty........... that somehow I am bad and am going to be punished. Now I could talk to anyone and say ‘yeah, I feel like I’m a good person, try not to be judgemental, live and let live, try not to hurt others and on and on the list goes. But somewhere deep down it feels like I’m still being run by something not totally conscious or understood by me.

To use a metaphor; it’s like having rose (or whatever colour) tinted glassed and seeing everything through these. Basically they are making everything in life and all my experiences coloured with what I already hold as ‘true’! So yes, I have been practicing the RS somewhat out of fear. Now I’m looking into maybe doing it for myself – seeing what’s actually relevant to me.

HOW can you say I’m not being rational and objective?(This sounds like an accusation or how dare you, but it is really saying tell me what you think I’m not seeing. See again how language is limited and can be interpreted differently)

To me being objective is seeing all sides of something NOT just the sides you want to see. And yes, I am seeing both sides – the good and the not so good, ok, I’ll call it bad:)

And yes I do have an identity and yes it is invested in RS. But tell me, do we all not have an identity or we wouldn’t be here giving our opinions on this blog. Yes as I continuously say, I DO WANT THE TRUTH NO MATTER WHAT, but do I take on your truth how you see it, or do I investigate the place I am at, where I am coming from? We all have taken different paths to where we are at, in this I mean we all have different experiences although basically the underlying condition when you get down to it seems to be the same. So what do you think I should do to ‘prove’ I am rational and objective??? Say online that I no longer am involved in RS but now have joined ‘Brian Hines’ blog instead??? The enlightened site who has coped on to the ‘bad’ of RS and all other religious/spiritual groups? At the ending of the day, we all need a friend sometimes a friend to lean on and BJ is still mine. :))

To give you a fresh angle on it, I will use a story. Growing up I had a father like everyone. My father was particularly abusive. Now as a child my parents were my world. So I had to confirm to what made my father happy if I wanted to survive. Now having grown up, some people might say to me ‘how could you call him your father, he has been so mean to you. Fathers are supposed to be caring loving supportive kind.....’As tAo and Tucson said ‘you have lost the innate wisdom and clarity that you had as a child. Yes due to circumstances, and a wee person as I was then, lost this wisdom and clarity and so I started the self fulfilling prophecy of looking attention, wanting approval blah blah blah – basically I lost myself and lost my power.

There is a point here so hold on. Now let’s take BJ. Yes maybe I have seen him as a father figure, but he NEVER, EVER, EVER and I can’t stress that enough, has taken my power away. In fact he has been like a mirror. For example, when I was 6 years initiated I went up to the mike at Dera and said “BJ I have been initiated 6 years now and I think I am getting worse. I have broken most of the vows and I feel like going to Beas to get cigerettes!!!” His reply: /”Sister, you are no different than anyone else. In fact you had the courage to stand up and say how you feel......” My point being, BJ gave me acceptance, compassion, he didn’t rail road me or tell me to put in more effort. When I say ‘gave me’ I mean His acceptance of me I could see it and it was part of me being able to accept myself more. He has helped me in regaining my power and a more real sense of myself.

I am reminded of what you, Tara said in one of your posts : ” I do believe in the existence of a supreme, a supreme truth. Well, most of the time! Somewhere in my heart and head, I think I want to be a “believer” in something again. But then, ever since my departure from the RS philosophy, I feel that logic and reason have taken precedence over all things holy. .

Tara when I read this, I think of myself and what needs do I have or that are driving me, for example, to be minded, cared for, protected, loved, accepted, to belong....... Yes, and to cover myself here, I am looking at that. :))) My challenge is to remain open, to honestly enquire and not to be too quick to make a judgement without ‘proper’ evidence.

Also Tara, you spoke on some of your RS friends watering at the mouth when you had a margarita pizza, well this RS person would be watering at the mouth too, not looking at it BUT eating it. OK confession time of a ‘not so good practicing’ satsangi!!! A couple of months back, a friend of mine – not into RS were out shopping. We went for a cup of coffee. Oh and in the coffee shop there were some beautiful perfect mouth watering blueberry muffins. I really fancied one, so one I did have with cream. Mmmm, delicious. I felt like Homer Simpson with his doughnuts!!! I never go to home satsangs for a long time now as I find them boring. Nor do I go to Haynes any more. I haven’t been this visit past. So maybe I take what suits me.

Ah Mike thanks for your lovely comment – it does indeed make me feel welcome! In truth, I was beginning to think maybe these people don’t want to hear about me and my struggles/holding on/ramblings/musing with RS. And indeed, nothing to ‘forgive in advance’ honestly I remain open to all comments the nice and if ever, the not so nice. So any pitbals, crocodiles, jellyfish...are welcome too!! I think we learn more from our critics anyway, even if it only confirms our own truth. :)))

Do you know, recently being retired at the ripe old age of 43 I thought my life was going to be one of relaxation, but work was easier than this! It now seems an obsession I have with my lil olde ‘self’.

Oops HOW could I nearly forget Dogribbs Youtube link???? Oh under the current climate I thought it was soooooooooooo funny :))))) lol lol Funny, I never seen the film but it has been downloaded on my computer and I shall watch it. Definitely was some brevity!!!!

Nietzsche I liked your post and thoughts. One thing comes to mind about mind control – what you try to control ends up controlling you. Oh maybe THAT’S my answer. Stop trying to control my mind and my thoughts. Let it flow in and out......whatever

By the way Nietzsche you wrote:” So I always come here after I met Satsangi's as a way to ventilate :) Oops, pass no remarks of me then ;)))))

And ta Brian for the link. Didn’t get a chance to check a lot as there IS a lot!!! And by the way – being truthful, when I first came on this blog a few days ago, one of my quests was to get ‘the bloggers’ attention – you know get in with the authority thing. Just one of my habitual reactions I am looking into. Well relax, you are off your pedestal (not for anything you did or didn’t do) and now sitting on the floor beside me. Marina :}}

Tara wrote: "" How would you explain the death of a child ? " and I did not know what to say. ( ?? )"

--I assume you had trouble with the answer to that question because of the perceived injustice of the loss of a child unless there was some karmic explanation.

I don't have any answer to that either, but why is the death of a child any more significant than the death of any person of any age? I understand the special poignancy of the death of a child, but many people are cut down in the prime of life when it appears they have much to live for and much to do and accomplish, even older people.

There was a dove in a tree in my yard with two chicks in her nest. One day they were there chirping away and the next day they were lying there dead. No evidence of predation, etc. They just died.

By the way, I also felt more connected with people and life when I quit Sant Mat. No longer was I a special person, one of the chosen lucky few carrying the burden of being a marked soul with a perfect master and an obligation to make this huge effort to return to god.

Animals don't have karma because they have no free will. They are instinct bound. It is absurd to suggest that animals have karma. Evolution goes from simple things to complex things and we are the height of that because we have free will.

Anybody with a decent brain knows that humans are different from all other species of life, in MANY ways.

If you got involved in some belief system that made you feel special compared to other people it just goes to show how much of an ego you had. No spiritual person would suggest that there is some kind of heirarchy of "specialness". It is, in fact, the complete opposite.

Dear Marina:

You ask some wonderfully pregnant questions. Yes, I have blogged about a few of the issues you mentioned.

If you email me at [email protected] I can provide some direct links to them.

http://www.neuralsurfer.com is the website I started many years ago and it can be a bit of a pain to navigate so I can list some links that may of use.

Just one thing here: the vision that the Brocks supposedly had of Sawan Singh is actually a story that is technically a bit different than what Beas alleges.

In Andrea's book, THE GURU IN AMERICA, she explains the following about that vision:
American Initiates

When Indians began to migrate to Canada and the United States they brought with them living testimonies to their respective religious faiths. One such Indian satsangi was pivotal in the development of Radhasoami in America. In a very revealing autobiographical article, Kehr Singh Sasmas (sometimes spelled Kehar Singh Sasmus) explains how and why he migrated from India to Canada and eventually to America. He also reveals how he came into contact with Dr. Brock, the first American initiate and representative of Sawan Singh. Writes Sasmas:

From adolescence I had a strong interest in seeing foreign lands. . . In 1904 I took the opportunity to go to Hong Kong via Bengal, Assam, Malaysia, and Singapore. I stayed in the trading center of Hong Kong approximately thirty months. . . The Master made my passage exceptionally easy. I went to Shanghai by boat and then to Japan. . . From Yokohama our boat crossed the Pacific in roughly twenty days reaching Victoria in British Columbia, Canada. . . . I found Vancouver to be a very beautiful city with a fair Sikh population maintaining a large Gurdwara. Entering the United States I went to Bellingham, Washington and from there to Everett where I met the former governor, Mr. D. M. Clough. . . He was greatly impressed by the tenets of Radha Soami faith but could not give up his dietary habits. . . In the beginning of 1908 I went to North Yokima and stayed for a couple of months. Close to my residence was the meeting hall of the local Socialist Party which met every Sunday. I too was invited to attend a meeting and was questioned about Indian social conditions as well as rites and rituals of different sects. . . At the meeting was Dr. H. M. Brock who later became a satsangi. He asked many questions on Indian religions and was very pleased, as was the audience, by the explanations. . . The next morning Dr. Brock called and said that his wife was anxious to see me. He invited me to his office that afternoon. When I came Mrs. Brock jumped up and we warmly shook hands. . . I told her of Radha Soami for the first time and she had a quick grasp of the teachings. Soon we met regularly and discussed the greatness of a living Master. When the both felt convinced of the teachings they wrote Hazur for acceptance and initiation. Hazur was well pleased with their sincerity and sent them Radha Soami Mat Prakash and Discourses on Radha Soami Faith, lovingly advising them to study the books carefully. . . After some time, Hazur, in His grace, authorized the initiation of Dr. and Mrs. Brock. They came to Portland for the occasion. Everything was conveyed to them exactly as directed by Hazur. . . .The Brocks were a loving couple and the first on whom Hazur showered His grace in America. [6]

What is perhaps most interesting from a historical perspective about Kehr Singh Sasmas' account is that it directly contradicts the recollection of "official" Beas history. By Sasmas' own admission he met Dr. Brock at a local Socialist Party meeting. The very next day he met Mrs. Brock at the Doctor's office (Brock was a dentist). However, compare the preceding narrative with the following "official" account given in Dawn of Light:

One evening, while Kehar Singh was walking along a street in Port Angeles, Washington, he was approached by a couple, Dr. and Mrs. Brock. They had seen, floating above his head, a beautiful, radiant face with a white turban and white beard. Unable to restrain themselves, they stopped Kehar Singh and asked him who this saintly looking man was. Kehar Singh was puzzled at first, but thinking it must be the will of the Master to reveal himself to this American couple, he said 'It is my Master, Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji.' Not satisfied with the brief reply, they were anxious to learn more about the extraordinary sight they had seen. [7]

In Kehr Singh Sasmus' own written account he makes no mention whatsoever to the Brocks' alleged vision of Sawan Singh floating above his head. Moreover, Sasmas clearly states that he met Dr. Brock at a Socialist Party first and on the following day met with Mrs. Brock. Why the discrepancy? There may be several answers, but the most obvious one is simple confusion, because later on in Sasmas' account he mentions meeting a Mr. C. Charles who has an experience very similar to the one recounted in the official Beas version. What has most likely occurred in the collective memory of certain Beas satsangis (and by extension the authorized history presented in several of their books) is that they have conflated the two stories (Dr. Brock's and Mr. C. Charles') into a single story. Keeping the Beas version in mind, as it relates to Dr. Brock, analyze Sasmas' remembrance of Mr. C. Charles:

Leaving the couple [the Brocks] in the hands of the Master, I returned to Seattle and from there went to Portland, Oregon. . . One day I took a boat to a small town nearby, The Dalles. The scenery was beautiful. The boat was crowded and as people were finding seats I was asked, 'Where are you from?'

'I am from India.'

'Do you have any knowledge of spirituality.'

'I have a little, but I am not an adept nor a Master,'

'You know, a spirit has just told me that I should address any questions on spirituality to you. It is on such instructions that I have come to you.'

I asked the man to proceed. . . I asked his name; he was Mr. C. Charles and was on a business trip. . . In the course of our discussion he informed me that he saw an East Indian, tall and lean, with an angelic countenance who appeared and disappeared three times as we talked. He felt that the man was my Master looking after me in an alien land. He wished that he could meet Him [my italics]. [8]

C. Charles' story is so much like the Beas story of the Brocks that it is fairly obvious that the names have been crossed. This is significant because the story of the Brocks' seeing the radiant form of Sawan Singh has become part of Radhasoami lore. That the story is completely wrong, at least as it relates to the Brocks, seems not to have concerned Dr. K. S. Narang, the present head of publications at the Dera. It may be that the story has been told and retold so often that it would be difficult, if nay impossible, to extricate it from the popular imagination of thousands of satsangis. What this episode reveals at a deeper level, however, is the unreliability of history. It also reveals that hagiography may not be so much a conscious reworking of history, but rather a confused recollection of it. It is that very confusion which has led to the juxtaposition of Dr. and Mrs. Brock with Mr. C. Charles.

Further in his narrative, Sasmas speaks about conducting initiation on behalf of Sawan Singh. This is a turning point in the history of Radhasoami in America because it allows initiation to be done by proxy. Sasmas under direct orders of Sawan Singh conveyed the initiation instructions to C. Charles' entire family as well as to the Brocks. Shortly thereafter the Brocks were appointed to be Sawan Singh's first representatives. As the Dawn of Light points out:

While in Canada and America, Kehar [Kehr] Singh also initiated a few other American seekers, as directed by the Great Master [Sawan Singh]. A few years after their initiation, the Great Master appointed Dr. and Mrs. Brock to initiate accepted applicants, and thus they were the first American representatives of the Great Master. [9]

Thanks David, for the detailed information. I appreciate it. Very informative.

I will indeed send you an email so you can 'point' me in the direction I am interested in. Marina ;))

David wrote: "Animals don't have karma because they have no free will."

--How do you know?

" They are instinct bound."

--Again, how do you know?

"It is absurd to suggest that animals have karma."

--Who suggested this? And if they did suggest it, why is it absurd? Also, how do you know if there is or isn't karma for anything to have in the first place?

"Evolution goes from simple things to complex things and we are the height of that because we have free will."

--How do you know "we" are at the "height" of that? Also, how do you know your will is free and not completely conditioned by circumstances of which you are not even aware?

"Anybody with a decent brain knows that humans are different from all other species of life, in MANY ways."

--I assume from this statement that you believe you have a decent brain. If your brain is so decent then you should have no problem definitively addressing the issues I have raised above. My deficient brain may not be able to comprehend the lofty concepts you will present (which I look forward to anyway), but it may provide illumination for others here who do have a mental capacity on your level.

"If you got involved in some belief system that made you feel special compared to other people it just goes to show how much of an ego you had."

--Yes, partly because of the belief system.

"No spiritual person would suggest that there is some kind of heirarchy of "specialness". It is, in fact, the complete opposite."

--Wrong. Many people associated with various spiritual traditions believe in the heirarchys their paths/religions teach. One example, the Pope is at the top of a heirarchy of specialness in the catholic church, above the cardinals, bishops, etc. and they have their extra special people who are annointed as saints.

And finally. What is a "spiritual" person? For example, from one philosophical perspective it is impossible not to be spiritual since all is one spirit. Not that I share or do not share that perspective.

And don't forget my first questions!!


After reading part of your message again I get the feeling that your biggest issue might not be RS but you are feeling guilty for something. You seem to be afraid of the next life where punishment might wait. I think it is wise to work on these issues. Why are you feeling guilty. What is it you don't want to face? It might have to do with your son,do you perhaps think you failed him?
You also made a remark about my mind control story. Do you mean I'm intruding on your thoughts with it? I don't want to. I just want to express my thoughts as clearly as possible for others to understand.
But I get this a lot, that people want to be left alone and not hear my thoughts. I am changing thought systems this way I'm afraid while I'm just trying to find an undeniable common sense. In my life I try to accept the results but I realize most people run their software far less rigorous and now with the RS 3.0 they have a hard time fitting all the tools and subroutines again. :)
Remember to keep fun. The video from 'the life of Brian' (no pun intended to Brian) is funny. Especially the rest where he says 'you are all different!' and they say 'we are all different' except one guy that says 'no I'm not!', 'sssssh'. :) I wonder if the guy that says that he is not different somehow has a clone ? :) But the point is he understands the guru best ;)

About the dead of a child. I have a spiritual point of view on this when you want to hang on to a supreme being existing. I think the life's we live are organized in motives and themes. By example I think I have to learn to make an own opinion in this life and I'm working on that. I think I followed an evil leader in to dead and destruction as a soldier in a former life and didn't have the guts to stand against him. that seems to be my theme these days. To resist. About the child, perhaps the parents are learning something this way or the child just chose to learn something from childhood and already knew the rest?
I have found karma much to limited in the past. By example we seem to meet the people, that we are in abusive relations with, over and over again and not always the roles are reversed so God puts the same person in the same role again and again until he stands up. I don't see any proof of the do good and the money will come to you. Most times you have to be very ugly to go on. Anyway these are just my impressions. Perhaps there is a great master account somewhere?

Kundalini is both a physical and an astral energy, so the mudras represent both. It's funny actually, now that you mention it, but i never considered before that these manifestations were kundalini in myself. But i have some classic kundalini symptoms.

I don't experience chakras yet. What i wrote about them and about sound and light are not my experiences but i have taken the descriptions from many sources. I have heard a couple of chakra sounds though. What i mean is that it isn't like a mind blowing thing. It used to be.

Before i even knew anything about meditation or yoga i used to smoke pot and my experiences were mind blowing, to say the least. I experienced feeling a oneness with everything consistently for about 10 years. This is supposed to be what enlightenment is like but it was more like hell to me. You become so sensitive to everything that it is overwhelming. But there is bliss there.

When you are in a state like that you can't function normally in society. You need protection and nurturing or some sort of means of getting by without upsetting the status quo. I probably could have set myself up as some sort of guru but i was only 17 at the time and it was highly confusing as well. I needed a spiritual teacher and there was none. These things aren't dealt with in the West properly. Fortunately my parents looked after me for a while until i became more stable. But is it the kind of state you really want to be in? For the bliss it is worth it; for the confusions and heightened feelings it is like being in hell. Without a spiritual teacher i wasn't taught about giving up ego and all that jazz and so i suffered. But i have never really understood this giving up the ego business anyway, because it seems to me that you would otherwise become some kind of automaton. I used to go into trances and my body would contort in certain ways while my fingers did mudras. Occasionally in those states i would kind of come back to this plane and notice that i was in those states and be just as surprised as anybody else would be that i was in those "positions". But you don't have much memory at all, it is like you are controlled by something higher. And nothing freaks me out more than the idea that my memory is playing up. I started to get panic attacks because of that.

Of course, in hindsight this just sounds crazy. But what i experienced was not crazy, it was real. And i have never been crazy. Crazy people talk to themselves and hear voices in their heads and sit in one posture for days on end, their behaviours are totally erratic and bizarre and they have delusions of various types. I never had any of those things.

Interestingly, pot mimics enlightenment for 2 reasons i can think of (although i am only speaking for myself here - the effects differ for different people). First, it makes your attention go inwards into a concentrated state which is like a deep hypnotic trance state. This is pratyahara in yogic terms. Second, it simultaneously increases your awareness outside your body so that you start to become sensitive to everything. I believe this combination makes your consciousness expand. But obviously there must be some type of karma involved because what i experienced is not very usual.

But all of this is pretty irrelevent anyhow. There may be a oneness aspect to existence but there is also a personal aspect for each person and to me these days that is more important. We are all different and we all have our own personal lives to live and for some that is seeking this oneness experience and for others it is leading a "normal" life and who is to say that either one is wrong?

About the disappearing objects, it is true. But i don't expect anybody to believe me. Reading something on the internet like this is hardly convincing to an outside observer. And if it is not part of your personal experience you have the right to question it. Doubt is a useful thing. I wouldn't believe half the things i read online just based on what is said by people unless i experienced it myself. And that is basically the summation of what i am saying - unless you experience it yourself there is no point in entertaining the existence of it or not. I believe Buddha said something similar.

Well Nietzsche,

Thanks very much for your reply. And no, honestly, I didn’t mean you were intruding on my thoughts. I mustn’t have made myself clear. Actually the fact is I wrote what I wrote off line and when I went to post it, you’re posting was there and I quickly ran through it, liked it and made a quick inclusion on my own posting just to acknowledge the same. I actually thought it funny about you wanting to ventilate after being with satsangi’s, and there I was ‘a satsangi’ replying to you:))) (My warped sense of humour)

Nietzsche, I want for you to be yourself and post WHATEVER you want to say and not try to change for anyone – including me.

You made some very interesting points in your post and thank you for your honesty and forthrightness.

Yes, I have always known I have had a guilty conscience. When you ask does it have anything to do with my son? I suppose a very small part does – funny I felt very sad for him but be it grace or whatever, no I didn’t give myself a hard time there. Oh yeah, I did have regrets saying to myself, if I knew he felt this way I could have talked to him more. I know this feeling of guilt (and shame) was there long long long before that.

But being honest and I hope not too personal for people, I honestly believe my guilt comes from being abused by my dad. Somehow I perceived things as my fault, that I had done something wrong and worst of all, I was bad. Yes, that is what I talk about when I say ‘core beliefs’ – one of mine is ‘I AM BAD’, something wrong with me. Don’t get me wrong, I can knowledgeably and intellectually see I have dealt with it great, done a lot of things – counselling, holotrophic breathwork, books etc. BUT somehow that core thing is still there at least now it is more subtle. I feel like an onion, one layer peeled off, oh there’s more? A bit like a bottomless pit:))

And yes Nietzsche to answer your question, I do still have that belief that I will be punished. So yeah, I can see how when I was accepted into RS for initiation ‘wow, I cried. I thought I am never going to feel bad again.’ Yeah, right, Innocence or what?

I did have a victim mentality (I think it’s gone ;) and I can recall BJ one time saying to me ‘there is nothing worse than indulging in self pity. Well I needed that! A true friend for sure! THAT took me out of the self pity mode, let me tell you.

I am feeling vulnerable on this blog as another little string from this event is the whole secrecy thing. Oh I was so, so ashamed for so long. This reminds me of a time, oh a long way back now; we are talking about 22 years when I was in Lourdes with my daughter who at that time was 6 months old. I was only 22. The abuse then, which was still fresh, was obviously haunting me and I remember saying to one woman who I met there something about being abused by my father. Well, to this day I remember vividly her reply, she said (I was in her room) “GET OUT; YOU’RE EVIL, GET OUT!!!” Oh was I mortified or what, at the time! My thoughts were ‘Oh God please don’t let anyone hear her.’ That at the time just solidified the feeling I had about myself. As I said or was trying to say in other posts, if you have a belief it is not hard to get it verified – if that’s the right word. Like I said, rose coloured glasses!

Now I'm not blaming anyone, as BJ once told of how Charan said ‘no one can insult you. It is like if they give you a present, you can refuse to take it and say no thank you.’

Or like the man who was down the river lying back in his boat. It was a beautiful evening, with the sun setting, calm, quiet and there he was, lying back relaxing when a boat hit his. He thought to himself, ‘a boat is after hitting mine’ and he felt angry and started to sit up to tell this person off. Well when he sat up he realised there was no one in the other boat. He then realised – there never IS anyone in the other boat! lol

So between that and the catholic church and its teachings, it made a good recipe for me taking on the assumption I was bad.

What I noticed about myself today: Earlier before any posts came on the blog, I am sitting there thinking ‘where the hell is everyone, would you people get up and get on the board, post something – ANYTHING!’ I wanted replies good bad or indifferent. I realised I hate being ignored. So there I was, over and back to the computer. I asked myself what this was all about, what am I looking for? Oh yeah, it wasn’t too hard to find – approval, acknowledgement, to be noticed. Ramana’s teachings came to mind – that we can only get it from ourselves. So I thought, ok I’ll give it to myself and that is when a feeling came up inside me that I wanted to cry. It’s like I need validation from outside myself all the time. There is some block there. Yep and it’s me that’s doing it.

Even on this blog I try to manage what perceptions people might have of me, thinking ‘oh, I can’t write that, what will people think of me? So I have a tendency to over explain. I seem to look for most things outside myself from others. Oh cringe cringe cringe lol lol lol

BUT AND IT’S A BIG BUT, no matter what it takes, if I have to make a fool of myself, if everybody thinks I’m an eejit, I’ll risk anything for the TRUTH!

Where does that leave me NOW on this blog.....Marina ;)

Tara, leaving is difficult. Sant Mat was a big thing that motivated my life. I think there was something in me that first postulated it all- this is what I want- and then went out to find an external structure to create the secure environment.

When I was 23 years old, one of the clearest stages in my life, I left work to heal and find the meaning of life. The money saved from work, lasted about a month at a Buddhist retreat where I put myself in silence for that period. There were various different retreats going on during that time and the visiting monk was Achan Anando from the Chitturst Monestery. We all did Vipassana and walking meditation. Eyes were kept half open during sittings. About 25 days in I was practising sitting and I heard piped music from a single instrument. I thought it was being played by someone coming up the road as it appeared to be approaching. It was however a sound from an instrument I had never heard and it stayed with me in a very easy natural way as if it was coming from my cells. I looked around, no-one else appeared to hear it, then I felt like getting up and dancing slowly- it was low slow music. I managed to control myself and remained on my cushion. After a time, the sound ended. I did not think to talk about it, because it was so natural. I remember thinking, ' Ah, Pan exists.'

After a month, I left to stay a week on a Hare Krishna farm where I learned that Bhakti was the meditation that most quickly moved a person along the spiritual path. They also chanted continuously, believing that the external chanting of the sound of Hare Krishna purified the surroundings and uplifted the practitioner and all who heard.

I briefly returned to the retreat and read a book there called,' Path of the Masters'. The idea of the sound current was real to me. At that stage I had run out of time and money and had to go back to work, so felt that I should get initiation into Sant Mat as soon as possible so that I could establish a meditaion and dietary discipline and discover the reason for being.

What I didn't think of was, although Julian Johnson spoke in glowing terms of the path and the masters, that the history of sant mat would infact prove it to be flawed. I only read that many years after practising.
Also Charan Singh's taped satsangs, which I was transcribing with others, often contained contradictory statements. I also made an observation of myself and did not like what I was becoming.

So I left.

There is a strong connection with my satsangi and buddhist friends- a road we've travelled together. I value them although I do not see them often.

Tara, if your parents are disciples of Charan, they too probably have some rather large question marks about things in the Beas camp today.

SM, I don't speak Hindi, but would like to know more about the shift in the sant mat recitation or method of meditation.

Marina, real cool posting.

What anyone thinks of you - is none of your business. Let them think what they want - it's their thoughts.

Approval seeking is a big trap in life. we are conditioned as children to PLEASE OTHERS and to be GOOD people.

Well - it's all nonsense. Just be yourself. Forget all about pleasing anyone - just please yourself.

Be totally selfish and enjoy it - it's your nature.

You were born selfish - and it is inauthentic to try to go against your nature.

You were taught to be a GOOD person - but there is no such thing. GOOD is a perception. It doesn't exist in REALITY.

There was a training in the 70's called EST.

It guaranteed that you would GET IT - in two weekends. And it worked because it pushed you beyond all your conditioning.

Two intense weekends - 15 hours a day - shouting at you - breaking you down - so you let go of the idea that you
are a good person and you have life all figured out.

When that breaks down - truth dawns on you - that you don't know anything and there is nothing to know - so get on with life.

I loved it so much - I created my own version of it and called it Transformation Day (www.TransformationDay.com)

Intellectually you can understand it all - but unless you get a breakdown of the conditioning - the understanding is just intellectual and on the surface - and makes no difference to your life.

Feeling guilty - it is WE who buy into the idea of guilt. Guilt arises when you BREAK A RULE. You automatically feel
guilt because the guilt is a control mechanism to bring you back in line.

So to eliminate guilt - identify the rules in your mind. You will be surprised because they are not even your rules. They were put there by others - parents, teachers, religious leaders.

Now add a qualifier to the rule - that effectively removes the rule.

e.g. if you are a RSSB follower and feel guilty about not meditating.

rule: I must meditate 2.5 hours a day

new rule: I can meditate up to 2.5 hours a day - if I feel like it and if I enjoy it. Otherwise - it's not necessary. Also it's great if I fall asleep during meditation - just enjoy the sleep.

Now with that new rule - how can you feel guilty?

You normally link guilt = BAD because you broke a rule.

no rules = no guilt = nothing is BAD and nothing is GOOD.

GOOD and BAD as well as RIGHT and WRONG are concepts that keep you firmly in duality and deeply unhappy because you feel there is something WRONG with you.

We acquired that belief in childhood. As long as we buy into it - we will seek something to make us feel better - but it never works.

Awareness of our own traps set us free.

There is a saying
'And the truth shall set you free - but first it shall piss you off'

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I have very little knowledge on child abuse and the shame and loss of a father that comes with it I suppose. I do however understand what you mean when you say 'I don't want to be ignored'. I myself was ignored by my father a lot. My father was often busy outside and left the children to my mom. So I learned that the most fundamental force of existence is 'to be or not to be'. We all have the longing to exist, to be seen and preferable to be seen by our father that is seeing us perform and achieve and praise us. I think the will to exist is what brings us here. Some people are born without this will to exist and I am afraid that evolution has sorted them out quickly leaving the people like us behind that want to perform on some stage somewhere. A father figure is crucial in all this...

About perception and misinterpretations I like the following story ;) A captain on a huge warship in the mist saw a light on his radar and realized that he would run into that other ship if he maintained his course. So he transmitted 'This is the us enterprise... please go out of my way'. Then he got the reply 'No'. So he repeated 'We are a huge warship and we can not get out of your way so I tell you to get the hell out of my way!'. The reply was 'No, not an option'. So the captain became furious 'get the hell out of here!'. Than he got the reply 'sorry I'm a lighthouse' . :)


Makes sense what you are saying. I read that you felt oneness and felt very sensitive to things outside yourself. To life we have to have identities, being a separate person, an individual. To feel separated from others might be lonely but it is essential too. I never understood the ego politics either. Why do you want to destroy your separateness? I think it would leave us in a state of psychoses. Luckily no one succeeds in losing the ego the RS way. Perhaps there are some people that feel to separated and disconnected. Perhaps they can learn to lose some ego but I think the only proper way to do that is by taking care of others, by sharing and setting goals that include the community and the people you love. To stop circulating around yourself. Perhaps even it is possible to overcome the separateness by love but I don't believe it is possible to overcome it by being humbled by others or being hurt by them or even being broken down to shreds by them. To Osho, try the loving variant and I hope you evaluated your methods scientifically ;)

Hi Osho, thanks for both your comments. Woo hoo I've been seen and acknowledged!!! lol lol(more on that at a later time)

You have given me plenty of food for thought and I am looking at what it all means for me or what applies to me.

Today I am 'minding' my little two and a half year old grandson. He is so cute and 'adorabubble', he will be my 'Guru' for the day. He never ceases to amaze me! He gives me lessons just watching him being 'himself'. His whole little world revolves around him and he thinks mine should revolve around him too – or so it seems to me!

Just quickly - last week when he was down there were work men working with diggers at a house down the road. Now he loves diggers and loves watching them. I happened to ask him did he want to sit on one of them and he said 'no no, 'Gany Mena' (which is what he calls me) diggers dangerous’ in his own wee baby talk. I just had to laugh and think - now who has been telling you diggers are dangerous!

Or another quick thing: last week when he had finished the crisps (chips) I had given him he wanted more. I told him there was no more and when he seen he wasn’t getting what he wanted he started crying saying he wanted his mammy. I thought it cute and told him ‘oh you want your mammy and are feeling sad because you are not getting what you want’. Now was this his young way of trying to manipulate things to get what he wanted?

Whatever the answer, I have seen too often when a child is not behaving how we believe they should-in our opinion, we tell them they are bold and punish them or try to control them and make them feel bad by not conforming to ‘our’ standards’. (You’re bold, no sweets or I’m taking your toys off you until you behave). It is one of my pet hates to see how children sometimes are controlled and treated. ! I think a child needs guidance not rules.(So you can think of me today, (if you have nothing better to do) playing with trains, blocks, watching his favourite cartoons, looking at diggers, which are here again today,on the floor like a 2 year old does, and who knows what else....)

But anyway, as I was saying, there is a lot in your post that resonates with me - I loved the bit about 'it's none of business what others think about me, they are entitled to their own thoughts ‘:)))lol lol

My attention today will be with the wee fella but I’ll be back!

Marina :))

Hi Tara,

I just realize that your luck might be related to stopping the meditation. I did never go to Satsang a few months after initiation (the years before I went). I was not able to and there was no grace of the master enabling it. I even wrote him a letter to describe my practical problem to go to Satsang but I got a general letter back that was probable written by his staff :) So I started digging in to other philosophy. At first I sucked at it not understanding what the others where talking abouton a blogg like this one and that was very humbling. Than one of the bloggers gave me a tip to start reading from Kant to Shopenhauer to Kierkegaard and on.That gave me the foundation to understand what they where talking about. Some of these blog members have written books on philosophy so they knew what they where talking about. Anyway it gave me the foundation of western philosophy that was stronger than the RS philosophy. So when time went on I also stopped meditating that was never successful like all the others I know of. Now the only problem I face is meeting with the Satsangi's that originally brought me to initiation. I have learned so much from them that was not related to Santh Math that is is very difficult for me to stand up and hold my own opinions. But that is my challenge and I'm sure I will succeed unless I suddenly run in to Sach Kant ;)
Thanks for your story. You seem to be further on this. I'm not totally sure if I know the events that you revert to as exposing the underbelly of Santh Math. Do you mean the meetings with Gurinder and the personal things you saw?

The reason we embarked on the Sant Mat path was because we were curious and scientific. There was a man who we believed could possibly have travelled a route that he claimed was the highest, and we were willing to see if he could connect us to a series of sounds -the sound current- which could possibly draw us through various levels to experience, the ultimate everlasting experience.

We had already been primed, having maybe heard the cicadas or other unusual sound; been told of ' In the beginning was The Word and the Word was made flesh etc';sat in Quaker circles where we were told we should listen for the small still voice of God; heard eastern religions purifying the air with mantra and chanting etc.

We tried to keep the sound meditation experiment consistent through the years but unlike other initiates, kept an open enough mind to hear and read new information on the 'master' and the method.

The fact that we do not consider the experiment worth continuing ( 2,5 hrs, submission, continuous simran etc)in it's sant mat Beas style due to new evidence, does not mean that sound (that may or may not change a person)or any other unknown does not exist. Whether we want to keep experimenting in any number of ways, or even believe it to be of value at all, is entirely a matter of choice.

My husband and I were Satsangi for 20 years before Gurinder came on the scene.

When he arrived we realized what a fraud the whole thing was, plus we became privvy to 'inner workings' of the RSSB heirarchy.

My take: Clearly it is run as a family business. Gurinder approached it from the very beginning as a little Napoleonic businessman, maintaining a facade when necessary but also realized that all the GHIF archaic nonsense was going to be unsustainable/untenable in the modern technological world.

Plus, my impression is he enjoyed the 'fruits of the spoil' quite a bit, Armani Suits, private planes, palacial residences ...the luxury life (all while destitute Indians toil in construction and agriculture at Dera and even perform money sewa).

Maintaining the facade of highly evolved guy bored him but was necessary to a degree to accomplish business objectives requiring a huge compliant labor force to build centers and expand Dera into a city, captivated by the gibberish of his supposed powers.

Personally, we observed this transition (who or WTF is the guru anyway) begin early...dipping his toe in the water if you will...but what a batch of contradiction.

Belonging to a cult means cognative dissonance and mental gymnastics to reconcile a so called GHIF who wants it both ways.

Thanks Yes. I agree with you.

Westerners are dependant on books, western given satsangs and the brief imput from Gurinder in the form of untaped satsangs. Most Easterners are dependant on long distance satsangs given at bhandaras and satsangs back in their village. So few people actually see Gurinder as he actually is. Then those who do, probably are generally employed by him or are bathing in reflected glory. There is a small percentage of people who have the privilege of seeing with the blinkers off and who are willing to act on what they have experienced. So well done for acting.


That is an interesting account and corroborates much of what I know about long standing ruthless RSSB goals and techniques for aquiring propery and the estates of elder Satsangis.

There should be some key insider accounts in this site's archives provided a couple years ago.

For example Dr. Babani, long time RSSB secretary and key figure who accompany Charan on world tours providing opening discouse, etc died a broken disillusioned man...quite an account of what transpired.

Getting back to Gurinder's vacillation on basic principles: (Guru is GHIF, all the meaning behind meditation and being an initiate) ..

For those who weren't exposed, when Gurinder came on the scene was the big push to develop centers all over the world, a huge push for investment, real estate, construction. A bigger than ever demand for financial and labor donation.

So there was a big push to conflate sewa with spiritual advancement, or brownie points if you will, that your spiritual status could be influenced by donation.

So while the facade of GIHF and the significance of the disciplines had to be promoted and maintained to accomplish all this expansion, it seemed obvious that Gurinder knew his non-miraculous behavior and lavish livestyle would eventually become known in the modern world with internet etc.

So, it seems from the beginning, he started hedging about the significance of the Guru and who exactly the Guru is.

But then his appointed surrogates, like Vince Savares Western Representative would vehemently promote GHIF status and express outrage in newsletters that anyone would question the need to build centers, that the Guru in his divine knowledge knows everything...'If he tells you to build a wall one day and tear it down the next..do it without question.

And what the Guru wanted right now was to build centers...

That if you don't do everything the Guru says without question you will endure great spiritual defeat....on and on. Constantly conflating sewa with GHIF grace.

Really disgusting exploitative cult programming.

So, all the while Gurinder was playing coy with the definition of Guru, his surrogates at his instruction would reinforce 'the party line'.

Now Gurinder has all his centers built, Dera has expanded almost beyond comprehension and his family and RSSB has extravagant exhorbitant wealth, mostly built on the backs of those with modest means or in poverty.

He dosn't care now about maintaining any facade...he and the RSSB dynasty have laughed all the way to the bank.

He probably dosn't care if the organization grows or experiences attrition.

Re: SM, I don't speak Hindi, but would like to know more about the shift in the sant mat recitation or method of meditation.

Hi Catherine (and to whomever this may be of interest)

Thank you for your response. First off I just wanted to say that many of the priciples and the philosophy of RS is quite right, althought there have been a few contradictions here and there.

In regards to your query, let me first say that any information that I present is not mine, I just happened to stumble across it and feel it's only right and fair to share it with anyone that would like to know the truth.

Anyway, you mentioned the "shift in recitation". Well, first off, RS in all of its books if not most, state that the "word" has not changed ever since the beginning of creation. Not one iota, has been changed. But if you was to read the book "Ghat Ramayan" written by Tulsi Das ji of Hathras, he has written a detailed account of the names that are given at the time of initiation. These names can be easily obtained online even, and if you was to compare them to the ones given by Tulsi Das ji, you'll find the last name has been changed!! This was really surprising to me.

Furthermore, Tulsi Das ji himself writes that these 5 names belong to Kaal (or the negative power). Note that Tulsi Das ji was the guru of Swami ji Maharaj (Shiv dayal Singh) who apparently started the RS movement but says in one of his own books i.e. Sar Bachan, that "the RS path is not even mine". Also, it should be noted that an account of the 5 names was given even before Tulsi Das ji, and that was by Saint Kabir (the weaver) of Kashi in one of his hymns, "Kar nainon didhar".

The actual Naam that Saint Kabir gives has not been written anywhere but can only be obtainted through a true saint. The reason why is because Saint Kabir knew that False gurus would take advantage of it for their own gain, like alot of todays modern day "saints" are doing. They give the right diagnosis but the wrong medicine.

I hope you managed to find the videos I posted on youtube. Rampal Ji has his own website which you can visit at


The one great thing this spirited individual does is that he gives at page by page confirmation and verification of everything that he says. So he has the proof to back his words up. Also, he doesn't just read the books out aloud, if one can, they too can also read where exactly he is getting all his information from.

If you are still interested to find out more, please feel free to get in touch.

I look forward to hearing from you

Many thanks


Hi SM,

Your Guru seems to be the same one
that is on You Tube using my
copyrighted book name, Radhasoami Beas
Secret History and also my backup
book Hidden Radhasoami Gurus.


I contacted this group to change the name,
so people don't think your Guru is me.
Hopefully they have done so by now.

Have no idea who your Guru is.
What lineage does he come from ?

By the way, you may wish to inform
your Guru that Tulsi Das was the Guru
of Swami Ji's parents.

Swami Ji's Guru was Girdhari Das,
an unauthorised successor to Tulsi
Das whom lived in one of Swami Ji's

Upon Girdhari's death, Swami Ji
immediately took up the role
of Guru.

Chachaji, Swami Ji's brother, called
Girdhari Das chief disciple of Tulsi
Das in his biography of Swami Ji.
(Chachaji was not correct, there were
two other successors)

Swami Ji did meet Tulsi Das when he
was very young, but Girdhari Das
was his master.

Yes...thank you

Thanks Tara for the thorough research and personally observed information. What an eye-opener. We, living on the other side of the world, could never know these things without such witness.

Yes, thanks again for your spot on comment.

SM, thanks for elaborating. It does strike me though, that we could not know who a true guru is, and could not know for sure what Tulsi Das did infact really recite in his meditation.

Mike, I didn't know that you wrote 'RSB Secret History'. It is an important historical document.

I realised more than 10 years into the Sant Mat Path, that it is an extremely conservative, highly restricted approach to life.

Restrictions on food and sex are a big no-no for me. They could have taken a leaf out of Buddha's teachings and preached moderation instead. Although it would seemingly be hard to trust a so-called saint that preached renunciation and partook of a little naughtiness, don't you think?

If i remember correctly George Orwell said something like, "a saint should be presumed guilty before proved good" or something like that. And also, "not everybody desires to be a saint".

Or I like the one....

'A saint is a sinner who never gave up!'

Marina :)

Brian I notice a few new names in the comments of various threads.Are you seeing more traffic to your site ?A surge in interest to your Churchless musing.Is 3.0 putting people off and a new investigation is beginning?

Hi Mike, hope you're well.

At the moment I unfortunately do not have a guru as I am still in search for the truth. In saying that, alot of the things that Rampal ji covers does seem to be very attractive and makes alot of sense for some reason, possibly in the way he's presented the research.

Anyway, the mistake was mine when I said that Tulsi Das ji was Swami jis guru. I didn't realise that the information was yours. I'm not sure if he used your book either but he does corroborate as you do that Tulsi Das ji was indeed the guru of soami jis parents.

As for Rampal jis lineage, I am not sure as I've only recently started to study his philosophy. He has a website which can be googled. Just type 'Jagat guru rampal' into search and his link will come up. He says that the majority of the RS philosophy is correct but the 'Naam' that is given is not. He also talks about other paths which apparently came from the RS movement. All the videos are in Hindi unfortunately. Guess it's an excuse for us to learn it, lol.

And Catherine, I understand where you're coming from when you say we could not know who a true guru is. The thing with Tulsi Das ji is that his work was corroborated by saint Kabir. Truth is, we don't really know exactly what any of the historical saints recited, but you will notice alot of repetition in their works even though they existed at different times.

Alot of the things that Rampal ji says do make alot of sense and I've even checked the evidence myself, like the Guru Granth Sahib. The true name is not actually given in there but it is hinted. And if you study it carefully, Guru Nanak even makes a reference to the almighty as 'having the 'form/image/disguise' of a weaver.

Dogribb, it's hard to say -- page views go up and down all the time. But my best guess is that traffic to this here blog has been 10% to 20% greater the past month or so. Page views per day have been more in the 900 to 1000 range compared to 700 to 800 or so previously.

Lol! Very funny Tara!
Is all the Sangat's property in Gurinder's name? I was wondering if he might have called himself a property developer or a financial adviser when he enrolled his children in British schools and universities.

Gaddaffi's son seems to support him through it all, and no doubt it has a lot to do with family loyalty and a bank balance heartily boosted by dad. One wouldn't expect Gurinder's son and daughter to say, ' Look this just doesn't make sense; take the shares back; I've got a job and an education and will see my way through life like most other people. Donate it to creating work in the sangat communities, I really don't need it.' Didn't Charan say that receiving ill-gotten gains would make a person sick? As a result, the rest of us have been rather careful. Did he also not say, ' Do the bare minimum at work.'? Well, Gurinder has been doing rather a large amount of personal business. Is he a good businessman? Of course not, using people's belief that he's all powerful, to enrich himself, is not 'good'.

Gurinder has taken full advantage of the sant mat belief that a perfect guru always earns his own living. This has given him full permission to fly around all over the place on personal business. No wonder he can't remember what the previous masters taught about sant mat.

The Admin at the Dera must grant him permission for this or at least know about it, or maybe God himself knows what he has to do.

If he owns his money primarily from Indian people in India, why is his next generation in London?

Mugabe, who has funneled much of Zimbabwe's money into his pockets and those of his cronies is well known for answering questions with a joke or with a diversion. Why? Because he doesn't wish to be exposed.
Reminds me of someone else.

Thanks Tara. How did I miss that answer?- very entertaining and informative!

As a satsangi, I used to mix mainly with satsangis- that was encouraged by Charan- 'keeping the fence around the crop.' So, it is telling that for the sake of preserving wealth and privacy, the sons' circle of friends are non-satsangi. It is also so British not to ask too much about a person's family or background! So for that purpose they are in the right spot.

The 'gossipy spiritual grapevine'is something very, very new amongst Anglo-saxons w.r.t. santmat. It is telling and refreshing. Such satsangis will say they're not in it for info about the guru's personal life; it's all about the meditation. This is how secrets remain hidden.

Does he really think he's got something spiritual to impart? He's caring for his DNA, which is natural and he takes what he can get, which is human.

I think RSSB started with doubting gurus who stumbled across a formula which works well for the accumulation of wealth. The present guru is seeing to it.

Maybe just maybe Gurinder is confirming what we have achieved.

I am an initiate of Maharaj Charan Singh since 1969. Unless one has thoroughly tested this with a sincere attempt to practice the meditation, it is not appropriate to say anything one way or another. Even then, what can one say? Were we not stringently forewarned that the Kal will mislead anyone attempting to grasp the Guru, and in fact successfully tricked Brahm himself? Guru is Sat Purush, Whose Mauj can change things. Soami Ji Himself changed how this path is practiced out of mercy for the conditions of modern times. At no time has Gurinder ever said it is not necessary to have a living Master, the central pillar of the Path. With whom else in this tragic world will we throw in our lot? Ourselves? I am sorry you have not had a good experience, but Maharaji will not abandon any of His disciples.


I know that you believe the nonsense that you have expressed in your comment, but unfortunately you're full of crap.

Apparently your spending forty-two years in RS, has achieved nothing for you... not even common sense.

All you have is your blind belief in stories and myths. Your guru is but merely a common man, not some high holy divinity.

And if thats who & where you 'throw in your lot', then I feel truly sorry for you. You're in for a rather rude awakening someday. Don't wait till your last dying breath to wake up.

And come to think of it, you're probably one of those foolish people who believes the lie that it was a mere handful of Arabs with little box-cutters who pulled off 9/11.

But if you follow the money trail, it leads straight to zionist Israel and the mossad, not to Muslims.

In the same way, the money trail leads from RS to Religare and back to GSD. How convienent. So you're just another sucker for the lucrative guru-cult business.

Dear carolyn please stay away from 2 T's
Tao and Tara,
Talking to them is waste of time,
especially with Tao,though he is an aged person,
but with under developed brain,and same applies to tara,
so carolyn,do not waste your most valuable time for tao and tara,
its of no use,
you can other wise have discussion with,
brian,marina,george sometimes mungos.
but avoid tao,and stay far away from tara.
just piece of advice,else your wish.

Another take on this whole issue. What if Babaji is simply trying to confuse everyone with words in order for them to truly take it on faith and go within to find out?

If he just disses all of the theory questions, it is because these people don't have the experience of what they have read and are talking about and therefore it's all equivalent to bullshit anyways. Which means that these questions about the internal plane is irrelevant when you have not seen or experienced it.

I guess over the years, so many people have simply taken Sant Mat to a mind-level(even initiates). What this means is that they are sticking to the dogma and believing they are saved without having to do the meditation.

Babaji could be seeing this trend and then decide to confuse the hell out of everyone to the point where the only way they can know is to find it out for themselves.

This is just another idea, but one that seems to make sense to me at this time.

Hi Sukhbir,

How can Radhasoamis advance internally
when they are not given tantric techniques ?

It is the supression of the sexual energy which causes inner vision.

The supression blows up the subconscious mind into consciousness.

This is thought of as the clearing away
of karma.

After your mind is blow up by self induced
insanity, you are supposed to hit the
clear area and be free.

It would be a big mistake to think there
are not people here on this site whom
have gone internal.

Faquir Chand also went internal and described the
inner planes as non existant.

And, the sights and sounds as product of the mind.


Dear Mike,

Thanks for your comment on my comment. I wasn't aware of all of that being necessary. What did you mean by tantric techniques? And aren't all tantric techniques still require manipulation of subtle energies still of the body?

On a side note, I wanted to ask you another question regarding something you have posted up somewhere regarding the fact that you have been initiated by 7 masters. I didn't understand why you needed to be initiated by 7 masters? And did none of their initiations work?

Looking forward to hearing from you on this. By the way, I truly enjoyed the research and the amount of material you have posted up on the Radhasoami History. How much of that is truly based on facts? I still find it hard to assess whether everything written there is verifiable directly without second hand sources such as S.D. Maheshwari's Truth Unvarnished which poses a lot of truth but is also vengeance-filled.

Hi Sukhbir,

Tantric technique is physical, although Gurus
call it Ojas energy. Unless, sexual energy
is repressed, or blocked it is unlikely
the disciple will see anything. Some people
have natural blockage.

Yes, I have been initiated by 7 Radhasoami
masters alone. This does not count Yogananda
lineage offshoots which use Kriya yoga. First
initiation same as Radhasoami. Kriya yoga is
surat shabda yoga. But, there are 7 initiations,
of which I have taken 4.

Have neen initiated by many kundalini masters
and also into Pranahuti by Ram Chandra.

Yes, Radhasoami Beas Secret History is my website.


All historical documents are availaable for viewing at Agra. Beas and Kirpal both checked them and found them real.

Beas ironically has sets of Maheswari
books in their library. grin

Although I don't believe in inner planes, I
do believe in inner dimensions which can be

I don't believe in God, but in two powers,
which are negative and positive. Very few people
ever know about them.

I believe the negative power is rampant in Kirpal
based groups and I rant alot about them.

I believe the positive power was in effect in
such people as Ramana Maharshi and Jiddo Krishnamurti.

Hi Sukhbir, Cont from last post.

Only the initiation from Thakar Singh
was effective. Only he had the juice.
He is dead now.

But, you need to stay away from this
particular power, it is not what you think.

The initiations that were effective you
people are unfamiliar with and I don't
want to mention them for fear people
will go to them.

Extremely few Gurus, or masters have any power.

The positive power Gurus, I know of none that exist now.

They are mostly negative power Gurus that
teach now, if they have any power at all.

Beas has no power at all.

It's just a believe and be saved group.

Methinks that all Satsangis need to go on to the works of Dr. Rudolf Steiner now for sanity's sake.

But do remember, its all always "provisinary." I don't know if people still remember the story of Siddhartha - how he searches and is with various gurus, teachers and finally realizes that all he can do is row people across from one bank to another.

Illusion after illusion. Maya Jaal, my friends. Its good to have one's dearest belief's smashed; just have the courage and find sanity in awareness and know the truth, even as you go on to another "new truth", while learning that the old one was after all not true. Hey so what? You learned something, no?

Who was with you while you were gestating in your mother's womb? Who was with you when you were being born - that same state is always with you, even as you live life and at death as well. Call "it" what you will.

I too was initiated by Charan Singh. But, at some point, I realized that I did not have the complete story. I think there is still truth to light and sound - therefore, my suggestion is that all disappointed Satsangis, seriously start reading Dr. Rudolf Steiner's works. Not an easy task, but if you are drawn to his works by karma, so be it. It is my karma to tell you about him and some already know.

What or who is next, God almighty knows, who ever or whatever that is.

August 11, 2012

Kundalini Awakening. Yes! But no matter what one is experiencing in the "spiritual, or mystical realm" it is still being experienced with the body (to whatever degree of connection, therefore there is no such thing as a true "out of the body" experience. This only happens when one is dead.

Hi Janya,

The people here realize they live in an illusion.

But, the illusion creates REAL effects in the physical

Enlightenment, realization of no self, does not
stop REAL effects of the physical world, even if
you see your delusionary state.

Enlightenment is good for other people, not the
person it happens to.

What do you do, when you realize that ultimately
you don't even exist ?

Can you do anything ? If you don't exist, you realize
even your enlightenment was a joke.

A person can be as enlightened as a blue jay about
the nature of no self and be completely ignorant
of hard core facts in the world.

An enlightened person can actually be going against
nature and decency and actually be hurting humanity
and not know it.

The enlightened person can inadvertantly be hurting
humanity by accident only. They can actually be
helping evil and not know it.

Therefore enlightenment can be near worthless, without
hard scientific facts. These facts can be political
corruption, financial corruption and threats to freedom.

Just because one is enlightened, does not mean the person
is not completely deluded with pre existing beliefs
which do not hold up to hard scrutiny.

The enlightened person must learn humility. They must
re examine everything they have ever known, or been taught.
They must not trust anything they think they know.

The effects of this world are very real physically.

Enlightenment may not infer humility at all.

Humility is the final frontier, not enlightenment.

Humilty is the key to success for the so called
individual themself.

When a person becomes humble, another door opens that
is completely unexpected and does not exist in
religious books. It is unknown to masters and gurus.

A new dimension opens. This is the last stop
for a human being and all has been achieved
at that point. Until this point, absolutely
nothing has been acheived, not even if the
person is enlightened.

Because you realize you don't know, doesn't mean
there is not Something Else that does know and
can help you.

"Gentlemen, I am not sure if this constitution is
the correct, or best that can be acheived. The older I become,
the more I realize that I cannot be sure about anything
I know."

Benjamin Franklin paraphrase at Constitutional Convention

"The only thing I am sure of is that I do not know."
Paraprase Faquir Chand, the Unknowing Sage
Authorused Guru by Sawan Singh and Charan Singh

Why I Recommend Alcoholics Anonymous for Beas Satsangis

You go to a meeting and say, Hi my name is John Doe and I am an alcoholic.

You admit you cannot help yourself.

You admit that unless Something Else helps
you, that you can never be helped by anyone.

The burden is now cast upon the Something Else
to help you !!!!!!!!!!

You have gone in all humility and asked for help
from an unseen and unknown Helper.

The fact is .... it works.

But, if it works for alcohol, why not for everything else
in your life ?

They assume the Helper is here NOW and will help
you NOW.

Isn't this the opposite of what the Guru tells us ?

Oh My God .... Oh My God ... I Have Made a Horrible Mistake.

This explains the spiritual journey of Mike Williams through
decades of Gurus and masters and secret groups.

I had never believed in Satan, or God, or ghosts.

But, I began to notice something very strange in my
long journey. I began to suspect there were other people
inside people, that they themselves were unaware of.

Privately, I would have a conversation with them that was
totally normal. Then, as if it meant nothing, all of a sudden
I would ask the other person in them to come out and talk
with me. To my shock the other person would come out !

But, it was not another person, it was a demon. The demon
would begin talking with me and telling me things about me
not even my mother knew and that no one could know.

And, it was amazing how many times this would happen in
various groups I encountered. I would end by telling the
demon to go back in and leave no memory to its host,
the person it inhabited.

The worst case were the Kirpal groups and lineage.
And, of course Thakar Singh admitted he was possessed and
Sawan Ashram was infested with demons. Which in fact was
the reason for his remarkable initiations that blew people away.

So, now I knew demons existed in people. But, I still
didn't believe in a God and don't to this day.

But, I started thinking, just because there may be no God,
doesn't mean there cannot be Something Else. Philosphers
had told me either God exists, or doesn't.
Sounds reasonable.

But, I began to suspect Something Else could exist
that has nothing to do with religion. The demons kept
mentioning this Something Else. They were terrified
of it. It was not Jesus, or Buddha they were worried about.

It was in search of this Something Else that consumed me.
That pushed me onward.

It was only when I began to understand the great mystery
of little children I began to understand.

The Something Else was not the Great Complexity.

The Something Else was the Great Simplicity.

The Great Humility of Unknowingness.

Put your foot down and say NO.

Please for God's sake Satsangis, educate yourselves and learn to use your own logic to check out the veracity of claims. For God's sake Satsangis, realize that our physical bodies are just one of our "instruments" of perception. Dr. Steiner in his works says that we have several bodies through which we operate, not just the physical body. The physical is only one of our bodies, with the senses which assist us in understanding the physical world - the "materialistic" world as we are told. There is nothing horribly wrong with the materialistic world, in fact it is a world full of amazing versatility, behind which is the spirit, the universal spirit. I know Satsangis have been brain washed to "hate" the material world - so that they can be wafted on to a delusion filled, illlusion filled Luciferic mystical world. My friends, there appears to be a true spiritual world, filled with spiritual beings, but Luciferic forces want us to abandon the physical reality, which in fact we need to understand and with our divinity, i.e., our ego which in connection with thinking is that which brings us in close connection with, actually links us to the base of who we all are.

We must learn to understand, of-course with our FREE WILL, what Natural Science teaches us, not in only a sense perceptible manner, but with thinking understanding. Use the methods of Natural Science to penetrate with ordinary logical thinking, the firsts, of spirituality.

Gosh, how foolish to not wish to gain wisdom, gyana yoga, but to be sold to dogma, no matter from what source!

In everything, use your judgement, your rationality, your own logic and please read, other works than those of Santh Math - there are many satsangis, especially the Indian ones, who don't read! Therefore, read Goethe, read Lessing, read Kant, read Aristotle, read Krishnamurthy, Read U.G. Krishnamurthy, read other and learn from other authentic yogis, if you can find them - there are Dhongi's everywhere. But yet, there are always some insights, pearls of wisdom that one can find, in a heap of rubbish. And supposedly, providence, in a way has purposely set it up this way, so that only the most determined, the most discerning, the most rational, will be able to penetrate these mysteries, the rest will keep pretending to be "chelas."

And all this nonsense about "give up your ego", its a bunch of rubbish. Our egos are in their infancy, infact, we need to nurture and protect them so we can become free thinkers and ethical individualists. The negative force, as santh math likes to call them, are thsoe that do not want us to become discerning beings.

Hi Mike,

I fully agree with you that sincere, true and a natural humbleness (which in in my opinion is only possible in the social sphere;because in our own minds we are all justified and just "super"( this in-fact,and in a way, being right appraisal of oneself, because we are of divinity. Being in truthful relations with others helps us correct and understand ourselves, our weaknesses and our errors of perceptions, conceptions and in our thinking as well - I mean subjective living vs. objective; neither state being better than the other;they are complimentary)

I also fully agree that we need to understand the forces that are at work in our physical environments because this is where the battle is being fought.

Therefore, to me, at this point in my life, the development of my discerning ego holds the most truth and is most efficacious in penetrating the physical-spiritual world to what ever extent I am able to. By this I mean that, even if not fully and properly humble, my ego is at least free to trust itself and its judgements.

Which brings me to a place where I am trying to understand what a dear friend told me: "The last illusion is that we are human."

Mike - you say you know and have seen "demonic" forces operate through various personages, and have seen how destructive they can be and how clever and insidious, yet you say you do not or cannot believe in its/their opposite? Its the one that allowed you to discern them demons.

"illlusion filled Luciferic mystical world." quote Janya

Yes, that's what it is exactly.

"read Jiddo Krishnamurti, Read U.G. Krishnamurti" quote Janya

My favorites. Jiddo was the most remarkable
human being I have ever encountered.


Yes, think for yourself. But, realize much
information is tainted. Go back and find the source. That will make you humble.

Almost everything you have been taught is untrue, when you go back to the source.

Mike Hi again,

You said:

"The Something Else was the Great Simplicity.

The Great Humility of Unknowingness".

This is very instructive. Thank you. Very brave of you.

An individual from this space could therefore; undistracted, see them and recognize them for what they are; it seems they don't like being recognized and when they are they vanish, I hear, at a minunyn from the recognizer's/cognizer's vicinity, consciousness as well I would think.

People do things and have little idea why they
are doing them. The occult often seems harmless
to neophytes. They think it is a game and they won't
get burnt.

Lucifer means the Angel of Light. Radhasoamis go
for the Light. Luciferian philosophy means the person
belives they can become a God themself. That's what
the Radhasoami believes.

The inner sound is in fact the kundalini, which is
symbolized by the snake (Lucifer).

Radhasoami is in fact a Luciferian love fest.

Radha Soami is in fact Maha Kal. Lucifer.

When you sign a document for initiation into
Radhasoami, you are in fact signing a contract
with Lucifer that you will be his forever.

Lucifer will not tell you he is evil. He will tell
you he is God and even greater then God.

There is a secret place I go to all the time. It
is a very very old graveyard. Most people were born,
or buried in the 1800's.

Very often, including this morning, I see where
Santeria was performed overnight by Satanists.

I always find a black chicken with its head cut off.
3 candles in a ring. A stone statue of Lucifer. A deck
of small occult cards. A burnt offering. Two uncooked
eggs in a glass and a bottle of alchohol.

I take out a first class relic of a Saint. I use a relic
from St. Bernadette, the Catholic Saint. Then with some
words to Bernadette I ask her to make the area holy
again and to release the soul the ritual had taken place
for. I touch the relic to the ritual area ground.

Only then do I enter the dirt mound ring around the
ritual. It is very dangerous to go into the ring of
the Santeria. You should never do it as evil spirits
are contained there.

I place the body of the chicken and then its head in
a black plastic bag. I never touch the objects directly,
but remove them. Then I kick down the mound of dirt.

The black chicken is usually turned loose in the graveyard
for a week before it is killed. Around three o'clock
in the morning they come in the old cemetary.

"Mike - you say you know and have seen "demonic" forces operate through various personages, and have seen how destructive they can be and how clever and insidious, yet you say you do not or cannot believe in its/their opposite (God)?
quote Janya

It is true Janya, I have never met God.
Nor, have the many masters and Gurus I
have met.

Vivekananda once went around India asking
masters, "Have you seen God." They all
answered in the negative, except for one.
Ramakrishna, whom became his Guru.

The last place one should look for God
is in a Guru. The last place.

If a person is ever to find God, or Something Else, they must do it directly
and it must be done RIGHT NOW.

If there is a Helper, then assume it
is very powerful. Assume it is knowing
of the future. Assume It can give you everything you need to fulfill your
spiritual life. Assume that just by
Touching It, you have succeeded.

There is nothing you can do except
FEEL IT here and now. It sits on top of your head this very moment.

In the blink of an eye you can be There.

Thats all you can do. It will do everything
else for you. You do not need to help it
with yoga. If you do something wrong, it can
straighten it back out again.

It is the greatest of all mysteries that
man goes in search of God, while all the time God is sitting on the persons head.

Hi Janya,

You have wondered what Lucifer looks like.

You are about to look directly into the
eyes of Lucifer right now. This is for real.

The King of all devils. The leader of the
dark underworld. The killer of mankind.
The Grand Master of Hell.


Mike: People do things and have little idea why they
are doing them. The occult often seems harmless
to neophytes. They think it is a game and they won't
get burnt.

Janya: But what about the true seeker in contrast to the occult dabbler?
I know there is protection for the true seeker who has an indomitable faith in the good , in GOD.
(or the state that is called Christ and GOD)

Mike: Lucifer means the Angel of Light. Radhasoamis go
for the Light. Luciferian philosophy means the person
belives they can become a God themself. That's what
the Radhasoami believes.

Janya: I know that Radhasaomis do not believe that they can become GOD themselves, what they believe in is
that the individual becomes absorbed into GOD and becomes one with and a part of GOD; merges into GOD, like the drop
of water in the ocean becomes one with the ocean - Nirvana type of state.

Mike: The inner sound is in fact the kundalini, which is
symbolized by the snake (Lucifer).

Janya: I will need to think about this one. You might be on to something here, however, there is an outer "music of the spheres" attested to
by Western occultists and philosophers as well. The angelic choir/Apsaras in Hindi which one can hear anytime without any special meditation, merely by attenuating the ears and simply listening. Also, the symbolism of the Snake has a real basis. The snake is the being in which the earthly spinal cord first came to be, incapsulating the /an energy that was not as for lack of a better word, individualized. This prototype spinal cord is found in all vertebrates, including human beings; therefore, like it or not, we ALL hold this energy in us; just like the Sun shines on the good and the bad and the inbetweens. This energy is neutral. It is shaped by the character, morality, spirituality, soul etc. of the bearer. But is this the same energy as the one symbolized in Genesis as the Snake who tempts Adam and Eve?

Mike: Radhasoami is in fact a Luciferian love fest.
Janya: Ha Ha, good way of putting it.

Mike: Radha Soami is in fact Maha Kal. Lucifer.
Janya: Hmmm. . . have to go through Time (Maha = great, gigantic; Kal = time) - Saturn sphere, and galactic beyond (?) to Sach Khand (sach = true, Khand = abode, place (I reckkon). Lucifer as friend and wise counselor when one is in a state called Christ.

Mike: When you sign a document for initiation into
Radhasoami, you are in fact signing a contract
with Lucifer that you will be his forever.

Janya: WOW! - But the only contract is the rules, the repetition of the holy words, (and some other innocous self control agreements) words which Sikh sites say are found in the Guru Granth Sahib, the holy bookd of the Sikhs and the world of Guru Nanak ( who was a saint, no doubt about that in my book) and daily meditation.
Besides, even Faust despite his contract with Mephistopheles was able to make it to heaven (undeservedly some say). But infinite GOD decides differently than brain bound Man.

Mike: Lucifer will not tell you he is evil. He will tell
you he is God and even greater then God.
Janya: Yes, this is true. Guru is GOD they say (!) but in Indian colloqualism, culture and ethos, this is an acceptable way of respect and gratitude for someone; for example a child who is very greatful and thankful and loves his/her mother might say, "For me my mother is GOD."

Mike: There is a secret place I go to all the time. It
is a very very old graveyard. Most people were born,
or buried in the 1800's.
Very often, including this morning, I see where
Santeria was performed overnight by Satanists.
I always find a black chicken with its head cut off.
3 candles in a ring. A stone statue of Lucifer. A deck
of small occult cards. A burnt offering. Two uncooked
eggs in a glass and a bottle of alchohol.

I take out a first class relic of a Saint. I use a relic
from St. Bernadette, the Catholic Saint. Then with some
words to Bernadette I ask her to make the area holy
again and to release the soul the ritual had taken place
for. I touch the relic to the ritual area ground.

Only then do I enter the dirt mound ring around the
ritual. It is very dangerous to go into the ring of
the Santeria. You should never do it as evil spirits
are contained there.

I place the body of the chicken and then its head in
a black plastic bag. I never touch the objects directly,
but remove them. Then I kick down the mound of dirt.

The black chicken is usually turned loose in the graveyard
for a week before it is killed. Around three o'clock
in the morning they come in the old cemetary.

Janya: How horrible. You are very brave. I know about Catholic saints. My favorite ones are Saint Rita and Saint Jude. Saint Bernadette, I will find out about, now that you mention her strength and relic for such a dangerous undertaking. You are indeed brave. GOD bless you and I will pray for your protection as well.

About Santh Math

I feel very sad about the going ons at the Dera. I was initiated by Maharaj Charan Singh and I do maintain my respect, a certain awe and interest in him as well as Sawan Singh. I sat very close to Charan Singh at one time while he was initiating at Beas in 1978. I am Punjabi and even though I feel that Radha Soami does not explain things properly, as Rudolf Steiner and other Western philosophers and spiritual researchers do, I still feel that it is not all as sinister and evil as you might think. Or maybe its just different for me, culturally because I understand it from a different place. I also went to a parochial school in India for all my formative years, so I am very comfortable with Catholicism as well. About Kirpal Singh, personally, I never felt an affiliation with him or Ruhani Satsangs. You see, I don't think I would want to throw away the baby with the bath water.

Faqir Chand: Does he have a lineage? I read about him and liked what I had read, many years ago.


I can't even begin to thank you for the information that you have posted in your various posts here. Thanks to you, I was able to meet up with Faqir Chand and the not-knowing. But there was.is something else that the interview of Jugensmeyer with Faqir Chand totally confirmed for me, something I have had first hand revelation of, confirmed by Heraclitus and now of all people Baba Faqir Chand; about whom, previously I had been quite confused. Thanks again from the bottom of my heart friend.

Hi Janya, I wrote you a long response and
it got lost. I take this as a sign
I am telling you things that I should not be telling you.
It is very heavy occult stuff, which maybe
I am being warned not to be speaking of.

So, instead let me say this. It all has to do
with metaphysical alchemy. Just like science,
if you duplicate the right alchemy, very definite
repeatable results will occur.

Until a person has the right formula, they will
get no where. No matter how long and how hard they try.

It seems something does not want me to mention
these formulas here.

You will be protected. The true seeker is very rare. No evil will harm you on your journey.

The Agra Initiation into Radhasoami

This is the initiation into
Agra, Peepal Mandi, the original Rai Salig Ram
initiation, with presiding dieties, chakras,
Their mantra is Radhasoami.

1.Sahas Dal Kanwel Jot Naranjan
Flame of candle, bell, conch shell, 3/4 inches
behind Tirsa Til

2. Trikuti Om Kar, Rising sun,, Thunder,
drum, between two eyebrows.

3.Sunn (Dswan Dar) Ranrankar, full moon,
fiddle, center of forehead.

Maha Sunn vast region

4. Bhawar Gupta Sohang Ji, mid day sun,

5. Sat Lok Sat Nam, where hair
starts on forehead,, harp, bin,
100 million suns

6. Alakh Lok Alakh Parush,
2 fingers after hair starts, undescribable

7. Agam Lok Agam arush,
2 fingers after Alakh line, undescribable

8. Radhasoami D, top of head,undescribable



The Ninth Gate of the failed alchemist

Maybe of interest.


Mike, after noticing your "got lost" mention, I checked and found your comments in an "unpublished" TypePad section. Not sure how they got there. The Internet often works in mysterious ways. (New comments are supposed to show up in the "recent comments" section.) Anyway, they've been published now.


Rai Saligram initiation - hmm...and here? Interesting.

Your position appears to be that any initiation into light and sound is Luciferic, be it Kriya yoga, Radha Saomi/Beas masters, Kirpal group, Rai Saligram/Agra gurus, Faqir Chand and which all takes us back to Tulsi Das. Am I right?

But light and sound are primeval!

Side Note
The Problem of Evil

Zarathustra/Zoroaster spoke extensively about two powers. One good one bad. Ormuzd and Ahriman. Ormuzd or Ahura Mazdao is good and Ahriman (who is apparently fixing to make himself known to everyone soon (well what time frame is soon?)is very bad.

Behind them stands Zaruana Akarana and below the Amschaspands both good and bad.

"The Amschaspands of Zarathustra are the same beings to whom Goethe refers as the “pure children of God,” who serve the highest Divine Power. In the time of Zarathustra there was, of course, no science of anatomy in our sense of the word, but he and his disciples, with their spiritual conception of the world, saw the twelve currents of the Amschaspands as a reality. They saw these currents flowing towards man and working in him. The human head was to them the visible expression of the activities of the seven good and five evil currents of the Amschaspands. How is this truth expressed at the present time? To-day, the anatomist has discovered the existence of twelve pairs of cerebral nerves which are repeated in the body. These are the physical counterparts, the frozen currents, as it were, of the Amschaspands. There are twelve pairs of nerves and by their means man can either attain the highest perfection or sink to the greatest evil."

Reference: Paraphrase and direct quote from the works of Dr. Rudolf Steiner from his lecture on Zarathustra.

You see, its all connected up the "end times" as well. All creation goes into a spiritual state called "Pralaya", periodically. And there is to be much evil on earth as the end times near - Kali Yuga, already known to the GOD/that state/that beingness, whatever it/she/he is. That evil too has its place in the grand scheme of things; like the separating of the Chaff from the Wheat analogy. Then the start of another cycle after purification.

Its up to us to leave to seek out the right and correct path, is it not? So, as far as I am concerned, sharing information is a good thing; ofcourse not every one is ripe for certain information, because it might do them more harm than good. Its all good when there is real humbleness and love. Life and death we cannot change, but we can all be sincere and state our case in love.

"which all takes us back to Tulsi Das. Am I right? "
quote Janya

Going back to ancient Babalonia. Kundalini
yoga has been around a long time.

All yoga moving the kundalini up the spine
is evil. It's like crap in the bottom of a
pot. While its sitting down there the water
is clear. But, when you stir up the crap
the whole tank stinks.

I am saying there is only one positive way.
That is by opening the chakras from the top
down, with a higher energy then kundalini.

This is called pranahuti sometimes, not to be
confused with shaktipat.

The higher energy runs down the spine opening
it from the top down. This is very effective.

This is what Ramana Maharshi recommended.

There is quite literally a positive Force.
It can be contacted directly here and now.
This Force does everything for you and is more
then competent then can be imagined.

The Positive Force has no religion and there
are no Gurus and masters of it. There are no rituals,
nor any path to it. It cannot be reached as a process. There are no steps
or stages to it.

All you can do is Touch it here and now.
Simply by Touching it, all else happens
by its own nature.

Once you Touch it, the burden is shifted
to the Positive Power.

Only a true seeker finds it. It is the
Ultimate Simplicity.

Switch to Open Thread 10.

note: Hi to Tara and thanks to Brian

If Gurinder Ji, is in-fact stating that there is no God, no Heaven and no Savior,(This is not fully confirmed as yet) he must be in need of additional initiations because there are SOME who are not "initiated" into any system by any personage, yet have by the SUPREME'S grace and mercy, experienced the transcendental "WORD", the supremely alive, charged, scintilating, ceaslessly dynamic moving living particles of true infinite wisdom, true infinite knowledge, true, infinite eternal truth, all pervasive, all knowing, everywhere, all powerful, infinitely complete and the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, in all, outside all - from whom (which) all comes forth, but beyond which no soul can go, for there is a pore-like membrane type firmament through which oozes out this most,infinitely subtle,yet most substantial, holy,sacred,pure,dynamic,ceaslessly in motion and fully self sustaining as well as ALL sustaining truth-wisdom substance; substance which is the be all and end all of all that may be possible for us souls (maybe all living things, not just humans). Not metaphoric substance, but literally "SUBSTANCE."

But yet the longing and intense desire to know more about, as well as the source of this "all" substance persists. (I and my Father are one)and ("I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.)

Then "they" transmit/say/convey:

"In the begining was the WORD, the WORD was with GOD, all things were made by the WORD. Humanity is always pursuing the WORD and the WORD is always pursuing Humanity. This is the way it was, this is the way it is and this is the way it shall ever be; WORLD without end."

Is there a heaven, is there a savior? I do not know, for where the infinite all knowing EYES - I(s) reside, past, present and future are ONE; all in the same being-ness;that which is able to hold what we call past, present and future as one.

He who denies this substance; that is called LOGOS (WORD) must simply in-fact not know for who can deny it once known? (hmm. . . the usual one?)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1: 1-18)

Original writing of Janya Barrish/RV

"If Gurinder Ji, is in-fact stating that there is no God, no Heaven and no Saviour..."
attributed to Gurinder

If Gurinder is saying that, he is correct.

But, that being said, it does not mean there
cannot be Something Else completely unexpected
possible, besides all the
horseshit the saints have dumped on us.
Which is all a lie.

The saints speculated on what they think
God experience must be like. The fact is,
they have never experienced this state for
themselves, but deceive the public they have.

The saints are in fact devils.

What amazing babble:

"If Gurinder Ji, is in-fact stating that there is no God, no Heaven and no Savior,(This is not fully confirmed as yet) he must be in need of additional initiations because there are SOME who are not "initiated" into any system by any personage, yet have by the SUPREME'S grace and mercy, experienced the transcendental "WORD", the supremely alive, charged, scintilating, ceaslessly dynamic moving living particles of true infinite wisdom, true infinite knowledge, true, infinite eternal truth, all pervasive, all knowing, everywhere, all powerful, infinitely complete and the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, in all, outside all - from whom (which) all comes forth, but beyond which no soul can go, for there is a pore-like membrane type firmament through which oozes out this most,infinitely subtle,yet most substantial, holy,sacred,pure,dynamic,ceaslessly in motion and fully self sustaining as well as ALL sustaining truth-wisdom substance; substance which is the be all and end all of all that may be possible for us souls (maybe all living things, not just humans). Not metaphoric substance, but literally "SUBSTANCE."

Roger, I didn't understand that amazing lengthy sentence either. It struck me, as so many expressions of spiritual sentiments do, as having lofty notions lacking any truthful substance. Which is sort of funny, given that the last part refers to SUBSTANCE.

Brian - I am sorry that I even posted this here, I should have realized that most people will never know. This is not something that I merely "made up." Heraclitus, a pre-socratic philosopher referred to it in a way a way as "Flux." It is not something that is "made up." Never the less, because things of this sort can always be chalked of as subjective experience, babble, adjectives, lacking objectivity, I understand and won't be offended at you guys calling it "Babble." You have, at this point of your development, no grasp of its profundity or legitimacy. Since you have not asked me to explain or even justify it but easily assumed that it is babble, would you please remove it from this blog? This is not a worthy place for it. Like I said, I am not offended, only sad and disappointed. At the expense of sounding egotistical, which I am not, consider yourselves fortunate that you even got to learn about it from me. Thanks!

Yes Mike, I fully agree with you. You are correct. What I speak of is not may not be the GOD,as we know it, but yes, possibly something else. I respect your opinion and thank your for explaining so much here. This is certainly not the end. Only a beginning. I think I might have received what I was sent here for and gave what I was to give.

There is part of the "whole" that is completely transcendental. Some saints know it. No not all true saints are frauds. But how can they explain except in stumbling, babbling words that which is so uncomprehensible; but wait, it really isn't if one has studied much, especially yes, the pre-socratic philosophers, the Stoics as well as other spiritual researchers. I know, it is hard to digest, because after all its all personal experience, and what objectivity does ANY purely personal experience hold? We have dreams and sometimes, enthusiastically describe them to family and friends, but it doesn't hold the the same meaning to them that it does to the dreamer.

I WISH what I had written was "sentimental babble", because then, I would not have been hounded by other parts of this profundity and how it relates to what the purpose for my existence in this life is.

Hu Janya,
Thankyou for your posts. It's OK to say
what you are thinking.

All I can tell you is there are 7 initiations in surat shabda yoga.

I have only taken four from different
masters. The Radhasoamis only give
the first initiation.

But, I have not seen or heard what
the saints told me I was supposed to.

I am absolutely convinced there is
no possibe way to reach God with surat
shabda yoga, or any other kundalini method.

The God these people are trying to reach does not exist ultimately.

I believe we cannot reach God because he
doesn't exist. I have never met a master
whom has met God in all my journies.

But, there may be Something Else quite
unexpected. But, it is only reached
here and now, in the condition the person
is in, here and now.


Zebra vs Lion. see who wins by thinking outside the box


How to make water with platic bag out of air


How to drink sea water in a raft in ocean


How to drink sea, or river water with a clear plastic bowl

yes. Yes, the present moment. I didn't know that there were additional initiations in Surat Shabd Yoga! How very interesting. I wonder why we even seek to be "enlightened". All the years I was groiwng up in India, my parents alwasys told me to stay away from the "Gurus." That they were all "dhongis." So, as a 13 year old, I decide to accept Shri Satya Sai Baba as my secret self-accepted Guru! I was never formally initiated by him, but did witness his gatherings, and saw him many times; he conducted many gatherings at my neighbor's home in Bangalore. What ever it is, he has "presence". In fact, strangely so, I still like him to this day,even though I am far removed from the Guru scenes.

I often wonder why we even seek "enlightenment and initiations," isn't it sufficient to be just a good, decent, truthful, kind,loving, honest persons.

Thanks for links :)

Isn't it enough to be good, decent, kind, noble and loving people?

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