If we're an alien computer simulation, could we ever know this?

Religions turn me off. Science turns me on.

And in the science books I read, the notion that we could be living as artificial intelligences within a computer simulation keeps popping up. I'm fascinated by this possibility (see previous blog posts here and here).

I've finished physicist Brian Greene's new book, "The Hidden Reality." He talks about simulated universes in a Universes, Computers, and Mathematical Reality chapter.

My interest here is in those who would be drawn by the purity of electrical impulses to program simulated environments populated by simulated beings that would exist within a computer's hardware; instead of C-3PO or Data, think Sims or Second Life, but with inhabitants who have self-aware and responsive minds.

The history of technological innovation suggests that iteration by iteration, the simulations would gain verisimilitude, allowing the physical and experimental characteristics of the artificial worlds to reach convincing levels of nuance and realism.

Whoever was running a given simulation would decide whether the simulated beings knew that they existed within a computer; simulated humans who surmised that their world was an elaborate computer program might find themselves taken away by simulated technicians in white coats and confined to simulated locked wards. But probably the vast majority of simulated beings would consider the possibility that they're in a computer simulation too silly to warrant attention.

Ah, not me. So I could be blogging on dangerous ground here.

Will my alien creators be disturbed to learn that I'm so close to understanding I'm a simulation? Could there be negative corrective consequences in store for me? Or as is more likely, am I thinking exactly the way that my programmers intended -- getting close to the truth but never quite penetrating the illusion?

(Along this line, Greene suggests that whoever is running this simulation likely enjoys colorful characters and wants to keep them around. So spicing up your life to make it more interesting to the Simulator would be a key to longevity. This implies, though, that Charlie Sheen and Lady Gaga should live into their 100's, which I doubt will happen.)

In any computer simulation, programming errors probably will creep in. Greene says that rounding errors and other approximations which permeate mathematical equations could accumulate over time, yielding inconsistencies.

After reading this, it struck me that maybe this is why the Simulator included religion in our reality. Miracles, supernatural phenomena, and such could be the programming glitches which cause things to appear out of the ordinary.

To keep us simulated beings from catching on, the Simulator has most people believe in God. Then those anomalies are explained away as manifestations of divinity rather than understood as what they are: computer malfunctions.

I also had another insight that could be taking me dangerously close to "Terminate! Terminate!" territory. (If my simulated brain is wiped clean as I sleep tonight, you'll know that my supposed massive stroke actually was programmed by an irritated Simulator.)

Our simulated quantum physicists have learned that particles, and hence physical reality, only seem to take on a definite non-probabilistic character when an observation is made. Scientists are mystified by how consciousness appears to be so intimately intertwined with measurements of matter and energy.

But I've figured out what's going on, with the help of these passages from Brian Greene, which come after his conclusion that "the collective computational capacity of the human species could be achieved with a run of less than two minutes on an earth-sized computer."

To simulate not just individual minds but also their interactions among themselves and with an evolving environment, the computational load would grow orders of magnitude larger. But a sophisticated simulation could cut computational corners with minimal impact on quality.

Simulated humans on a simulated earth won't be bothered if the computer simulates only things lying within the cosmic horizon. We can't see beyond that range, so the computer can safely ignore it.

More boldly, the simulation might simulate stars beyond the sun only during simulated nights, and then only when the simulated local weather resulted in clear skies... A sufficiently well-structured program would keep track of the mental states and intentions of its simulated inhabitants, and so would anticipate, and appropriately respond to, any impending stargazing.

The same goes for simulating cells, molecules, and atoms. For the most part, they'd be necessary only for simulated specialists of one scientific persuasion or another, and then only when such specialists were in the act of studying these exotic realms.

A computationally cheaper replica of familiar reality that adjusts the simulation's degree of detail on an as-needed basis would be adequate.

Exactly.

This is why I spend so much time whipping my head around as quickly as possible to see if I can catch the Simulator creating the world behind me before it bursts into existence.

That keeps my chiropractor happy, but so far I've been unable to get definitive evidence of how the detail of our universe's simulation is manipulated to match what is being observed by conscious (simulated) observers.

However, it's obvious to my newly alien-enlightened mind that the so-called observer created reality in quantum physics can be traced back to the programming of the alien Simulator -- who doesn't have enough computer power to simulate everything in our universe all of the time, so he/she/it only brings stuff into existence when a conscious simulated entity is observing something.

I'm on to you, Simulator. Of course, as noted above, you probably know that. Damn! There's no way out of your illusion! Except, maybe, to take the red pill.

Comments

[George]

well is this not what the mystics claim? that there is some hidden reality and some hidden universal consciousness behind it all.

what i dont really understand is that if there is some higher omniscient power pulling all the strings and creating this simulation, why would it (or they) go to all the lengths of setting up such a false or illusory world in the first place?

What seems a more likely possibility is that we ourselves have alien origins in that somewhere in the depths of space organic materials were formed into primitive bacteria and embedded into asteroids that eventually seeded the earth.

why go to all the trouble of implanting our memories with false experience and understanding of evolutionary processes that come so close to revealing our origins and what would the end goal be of human beings that become more aware of themselves and there place in the universe through eons of accumulated knowledge.

I think its unlikely that we humans are alone or even the most advanced intellects in the universe or even those with some supposedly uniquely spiritual apparatus such as a soul. If there is such a thing, why only humans, another ape, have this?

[Juliano]

I feel in despair today. I allow my emotions as much freedom as I can.
I am aware of A mindset seemingly intent on destroying the very web of life. I have seen a video of Texaco oil corp. going into the forests (nowhere are we safe from them) and utterly polluting the indigenous peoples land, water, air with their oil indutrial digging, and burning. The people are considered by these dehumanized people as being "non-people".

I am aware that there is now similar insane attack on mother eath in the form of 'fracking' for gas which is poisoning the welss, streams, peoples water supplies, killing all life needing water, because water is the very STAPLE of life. The people affected are white AMERICAN people--no doubdt to this gas corp the ones now not being able to drink water are non-persons also.

Japan Fukushima, the endless watrs where they are killing civilians and that includes babies, and further contaminating the whole regions and beyond with depleted uranium, which also horrifically damages the DNA and causes cancers etc.

Now, I ask you, who does it serve...this myth of reality being a 'simulated computer programme'?? Doesn't this myth fit in with their myth that we are machines--glorified computers? And that nature is an illusion? have you seen this mindset at war...? Did you see that leaked Wikileaks where, the young soldiers. looking at humans walking about on the ground are looking at them through the format of video game technology?

WHO do you think this myth of reality is a computer game suits??!

[Blogger Brian]

George, Brian Greene said that if the universe is a simulation, then simulated human scientists would be able to figure out the laws of nature embedded in the simulation. However, these wouldn't be the laws underlying actual reality, since those laws are in the Simulator's world -- not the computer simulation which we mistakenly take to be reality.

Yes, these notions do remind me of how maya is viewed in Hindu'ish sorts of philosophies. However, they're also quite different, in that the "ultimate reality" we aren't able to know isn't some divine or supernatural realm, but a material world. (Unless the Simulator is produced by another higher simulation, which gets us onto even stranger ground).

[George]

Brian,

Suppose it depends on what capabilities those simulated scientists were programmed with. But yes, if this were a simulation, we would probably be bound by the laws thereof, just as we cannot say what may be outside of our universe and what happened before the big bang. I think the problem with all the simulation or creator ideas is that they simply become an infinite regress, who created the alien simulators or creator?

Speaking of computer simulations, this becomes even less far-fetched if we consider the fundamental nature of reality not to be matter or even energy, but rather 'information'. I mean life itself appears to be encoded information, nothing more. Genes are mere instructions that seem to largely determine the creation of our bodies and behaviour. Venter literally programmed the creation of a self-sustaining lifeform. Seth lloyd goes even further with the notion of the universe as a giant quantum computer. Mind-boggling shit.

I saw you wrote a book in your younger believing days for RSSB on Life is Fair, regarding Karma, I'm not sure how you argued that one out, i'd like to read it - do you have any online copies or does the copyright belong to the Sant Mat fellas?

[Blogger Brian]

George, in a post I wrote back in 2007 there's a link to an online copy which is my final draft of the book file. See:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2007/03/life_is_fair_he.html

Be sure to read the post, where I lay out my current caveats/doubts about whether some of what I talked about in the book is true.

There's some great cartoons in the book. That was my favorite part of writing it -- sitting on the floor of bookstores and thumbing through humor books, looking for cartoons whose message reflected a theme in "Life is Fair."

[Mike Williams]

The Simulator could begin the
Universe at the Big Bang.

The inherent 'Nature' contained
in the Big Bang, of everything
that would happen after that,
would be predictable.

We know what will happen to a ball
rolled down a hill, because we know
the terrain before we 'Drop' the ball.

The scientist need only start the ball
rolling down the hill. Momentum does
the rest and its hands off after
the 'Beginning Drop'.

[Mike Williams]

Just a footnote to our simulated
Universe.

Science can track the DNA of humans
back though a fish off the coast of Africa,
which, although rare, still exists.

Before fish, we were sea spunge. Which may
be the reason Rajinder moles are airheads
and Rajinder looks like a great ape ?

The scientific Simulation we live in
is about to create a currency collaspe.

The Simulator has created chaos and indeed
our currency has already collasped.

Like religion, the dollar is now a myth.

ALREADY COLLASPED.

Stock CEF's and ETF' you can own to eat
Simulated food after the collaspe, which may
occur in 5 years ?

ELD
EMLC
ALD
CEW

The national debt is 85 trillion dollars now, not 15 trillion. Social Security and
Medicare must be added.

That means your dollars are indeed
ALREADY SIMULATED.

But, not to worry. The Euro dollar
is also simulated belief. The printing presses are rolling.

The Federal Reserve has been selling 70%
of our bonds to our own treasury !!!
The treasury prints money out of thin air.

In 2005 the Swiss went off the gold
standard and sold all their gold
at roughly $300 an once.

Guess who bought it now and owns more
gold than any other country ?

China.

Proving the Great Simulator in the
sky has slanted eyes.

[George]

Brian,

Thanks - I'm about halfway through your book, good god almighty you were hooked. Hard to believe you were the same person just 10 years ago. Nevertheless, its probably one of the clearest descriptions of mysticism i've read.

On karma itself, I will say the following:

1) why is karma not immediately repaid? If so, ppl would actually 'know' the effect of their actions? Unlike newtons second law where there is an immediate and opposite reaction to every action, the karmic reaction can apparently happen at any future time, sometimes even in the next life when any such memory of such karmic actions have been erased. There's no evidence or sense for such a capricious ill-defined rule.

2. If the source of the universe is love, which is associated with compassion, mercy, forgiveness and empathy - how is this reconciled with an uncaring system of karmic payback doled out to individuals who might be, and indeed often are, completely unaware of there actions? How does one reconcile love, indifference and retribution? How can love be taught or encouraged by inflicting yet more suffering.

3. If everything in the universe is causal then we live in a deterministic universe, in which case 'free will' is illusory and non-existent. If this is so, why has a universe been created in which ppl are destined to perform actions and inherit karmas over which they have no say, control or choice - since its already been determined from the moment the creator pulled the first string. How then is karma fair?

4. Science does not say the universe is deterministic. There are many random events, notably the genetic mutations that are necessary for the evolution of life itself. QM is fundamentally based on uncertainty, something many scientists could never accept, yet this is what the science says. The state of a particle is unpredictable until such time that it is actually observed, at which point it appears to take one particular state - tho that state cannot be determined beforehand, the best we can do is come up with a probability - that is the mathematics behind quantum mechanics - probability theory and statistics.

5. Karma is not an impersonal law of nature - it is inseperable from morality and personal notions of right and wrong. While I personally agree that inflicting suffering on others is wrong, this is a moral judgement not an impersonal natural law. An impersonal natural law is that most living organisms have to kill another living organisms inorder to survive. This law of the universe is against my personal wishes and yet these are the laws supposedly emanating from a loving creator.

6. If Karma is an impersonal inherent principle of the universe without the intervention of any supernatural being, then how can a satguru intervene and absolve some of the karmic load of the disciple?

[Blogger Brian]

George, you make some persuasive and thought-provoking points (per usual). If I'd sent my Life is Fair manuscript to you before it was published, I might never have finished writing the book, since it would have been so difficult for me to justify some of the unjustifiable conclusions I put forward.

Karma makes sense within a particular worldview. At the time I wrote Life is Fair, I viewed cause and effect from a perspective that's different from how I see things now. Some aspects of the book do still make sense to me, though, particularly the vegetarianism-promoting chapters.

[Andre Holmes]

Assuming this is a simulation I wonder if the creators are even still there... if they have since died off and our simulation is just running... Or if they are just no longer paying any attention and are steam rolling into chaos. It doest seem like in such a fantasic simulation they could be paying much attention or the glitches would be fixed right? Is it possible on any level to communicate with the simulator/s? If they are still there and are paying any attention. There should be a way to communicate that we are aware we are sumulations and want to know the truth! Hahaha, lets give these bastards a piece of our minds!

[Colin S]

I have often wondered what the purpose of such a complex simulation could be to any alien race or being?..what could they hope to gain?...pleasure?..knowledge?.....what possible reasons would someone or thing want to create such a complex simulation down to individual atoms, quarks or photons, the trillions upon trillions of atoms and photons that exist in our known universe is beyond all human imagination?......the physical laws and constraints that limit our world would of course fit perfectly with a pre-set computer programme which would be using such variables to calculate the virtual universe according to mathematical laws we may never even understand yet but would be required to make a stable realistic universe...I always wondered WHY if a photon has no mass the speed of light is finite..why does it travel at a certain max speed? what is limiting it travelling faster?

We ourselves have created our own arguably complex simulated worlds on our humble PC's to entertain and excite us..computer games offer the opportunity to explore new virtual worlds or Fly in complex flight sims we can immerse ourselves in all manner of exciting simulated activities....why?....to escape our boring restrictive realities and experience other more interesting virtual ones is the main reason.
Somehow i just cant imagine our complex universe being just some super alien version of 'The Sims' or maybe just an entertaining pastime for some far off alien creature bored with his own reality?...i doubt it!...Plus any creature intelligent enough to create such a simulated world would surly be aware that they would have created virtual sentient conscientiousness within its virtual creations...if they had any form of morality or ethics they would surely understand our plight?...or would they?.... of course they realise we aren't real!...even if we think we are...they know we are not...i find that whole idea very very disturbing...yet i also see it being VERY possible...everything we are learning about the physical laws and way our universe works, along with the mysteries of the mystical realms of spirituality and religion would also fit neatly into this mega complex Simulation!....it all sounds like a rather terrifying but wholly believable nightmare!...

[Mike Williams]

Hi Colin S.,
Advanced beings would need a reason for creating us.

I don't see any reason why they would create us.

If there was no pain and everything was
blissful, maybe.

Is there such a thing as an intelligent sadist ?

If so, we would be created by a monster.

Inner dimensions seem very possible,
but as we know, not inner planes.

[Mike Williams]

Rumors that Greece will default this week sent Wall Street into a tizzy. A brilliant article below explains why we may all be doomed. The entire fiat currency system of the world now hangs by a thread. Almost every Central Bank in the world is insolvent
as we head into another resession, or depression. This is the one of the greatest crisis the world has ever faced and it is happenning right now before our eyes.

http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/2011/07/15/167/

In 2009, the BIS warned that the market for derivatives still poses “major systemic risks” to the financial system, standing at a total value of $426 trillion (more than the worth of the entire global economy combined) and that, “the use of derivatives by hedge funds and the like can create large, hidden exposures.”[40] In 2010, one independent observer estimated the derivatives market was at roughly $700 trillion.

In June of 2011, Neil Barofsky stated in an interview with Dan Rather that the next crisis may cost USA $5 trillion, and told Rather, “You should be scared, I’m scared,” and that a coming crisis is inevitable.

[Blogger Brian]

Colin S, thanks for the thoughtful comment. I agree: it seems unlikely that we live in a simulation. But then, isn't that exactly what the creators of the simulation would want us to feel?

[Matt]

I like where you are going with the combination of observer based reality and combining the ideas of simulation this is really neat theory and along the lines of what I was searching for.

Rest assured no one will take you away in a white coat for supposing ideas. It seems to be what we're created to do a d we are fast approaching some kind of singularity where maybe we will get a glimpse outside this simulation or whatever it might really be.

What I was looking for is if you were inside of a computer program old there be any way for the creatures to access the data coming into the world. There only way I could think is if the programmers of the simulation wrote some sort of hidden function that would give us access to the variables of the computer. If they did not give us access and even far more likely they actually encrypted the information coming into the world what are some of the things we could do to hack into the database that all of our souls reside in.

We have no tools to touch these cosmic packets with and most I for action is buried in superstring dimensional theory which is giving glimpses of binary code actually woven into the fabric of matter and space and time. Hidden dimensions. It seems like exactly what a programmer would do to tuck away the unimportant stuff.

How do we touch the hard drive that we are stored on.. Is it even possible or detectable if it even exist if we are on that very hard drive? How do you detect the hard drive you are written on?

[Jeremy D. Ellington]

I myself have found that the probabilities of this topic, are right on . All of the pieces fit to display an anomaly that is quite possibly the most reasonable explanation for all of this. I just hope that whether or not it is " post humans " or Some kind of Galactic Super species, that exists solely outside of our dimension Such as Lyran, or Alpha Draconians / Either way you put it, I just hope that I can do what ever is Necessary to " Not " get permanently Deleted from the program .
Then again , there is also the chance that, once the Program end date comes " (Dec 21st 2012) the program will be well documented, information will be gathered and afterwards closed forever & ever. However, on the other hand, There is a chance that When the program ends, some of us (if not all) will wake up at the face of the simulator, back to whatever reality there is where Time & space have no meaning or existence . The only Paradox to all of this is our possession of a soul Matrix in a collective form. & the curiosity over it here on earth. But for all I know that could very well be a perceptional illusion as well . All I can say about any of this , is that I know absolutely " Nothing"

[Baracuda]

It seems to be what we're created to do a d we are fast approaching some kind of singularity where maybe we will get a glimpse outside this simulation or whatever it might really be.

[Donna Castle]

You can relax regarding any consequences from knowing you are in a computer simulation. Pat yourself on the back. You have taken the step that is not only wanted, but is required. I am 65 years old and have known since I was a child that what I was seeing was not real. Of course, with the invention of computers, I put it all together, with a little help from our friends. I have no doubt that the glitches that I have seen have been intentional to assist me in finding the truth. The universe is knowledge. How could anyone ever advance without real knowledge. Please know that your knowledge of the truth will benefit you in the long run. I have zero doubt. Or, I guess I should say that I have ones and zeros doubt.

[Jen]

Really enjoyed this Brian. Liked what you said here "To keep us simulated beings from catching on, the Simulator has most people believe in God. Then those anomalies are explained away as manifestations of divinity rather than understood as what they are: computer malfunctions."

One thing that I came across recently that really blew me away was the theory that some people living on this planet do not have a soul but are a part of the simulation! I look around and see the way some people behave, no empathy, cold and unscrupulous, the so called sociopaths and psychopaths, maybe thats it.

After following a spiritual path and believing in a soul its a big jump to even contemplate that there is no afterlife and a spiritual journey after death to a higher dimension. Here's hoping!

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen
In online gaming there are many computer generated characters. You would hardly believe they are real.

Because they follow all the rules.

Every day you interact with more robots on the internet than humans. It's a fact.

They are the ones reminding you that you didn't enter your full name, or that choice of chess move is probably not a good one.

NPCs are everywhere now (Non - Player Characters).

[Jen]

"NPCs are everywhere now (Non - Player Characters)."

So true Spencer. Artificial Intelligence is increasing at a rapid rate.

[777]

"" there is also the chance that, once the Program end date comes " (Dec 21st 2012) ""

Wow . . . 3 main differences with meditation

- There is no expiration date of the Soul

- The resulting ecstasy is outstanding to the ^of total dying from JOY

- The complete awareness that no death exists

- Plus but that might be personal
Seeing your Lover ( the SatGuru ) all around & in You
and you can beam that to other souls
That is : receiving Darshan from all good-hearted people but even the trees, nature, the power of water is soft but gigantic

- walking 2 inches above the ground

- Enjoying the music you live and it mixes with the Shabd ( Yes not only classic )
- Goosebumps all over the place
- Slowly ( or fast ) concentrating above the eyes
- Creating an urge to be there above the eyes
- Understanding and Love the stuff you eat
- Total communication
- If some worldly love comes along, . . making it Big, together with your Saint
( not at all a minor thing - - Little bit dangerous - I understand guys like Thakar - :-)

No end in sight
It ever grows

And Jim : Orgasm above our eyes -

[Jim Sutherland]

777 wrote,....”There is no expiration date of the Soul”

Me: I disagree. Soul is a creation of Universal Mind, which does have, an expiration date, along with every individual created soul, as “ the Breath of lfe was breathed in to men who BECAME living souls “ after the Dimieurge Deceiver Creator created every single soul.

ALL individual souls in material creation, at some level, are all impermanent, and have expiration dates, most likely in Super Causal realms, millions of earth, Space Time years.

ONLY SPIRIT is Eternal, and is the Alpha and Omega, no beginning, and with out end!

So, trying to merge in to a physical master, or inner master, is actually, the trap of Unversal Soul, the Deceiver Creator, to chain souls to physical creation, attempting to fool Anami Purush, i.e. SPIRIT to keep the Prisons alve and funded! But Anami is to smart, and allos 10% of the created souls to escape the Deceiver Creator’s Trap.

The 90% of souls left in creation, ust be left to kerp the University of Creation open, in order for the 10% being allowed their DDHG Degrees ( Double Dose of Holy Ghost ) in order to keep graduating from realms below Anami to unite with SPIRIT.

So, all Gnostics know, once fully awakened, that SPIRIT hates souls, while the Deceiver Creator loves you! HaHa.

Untange that mystery, and all of your miseries will end.

Jim

[Jim Sutherland]

I was searching for corroboration to support my Gnostic comments, that I have said is Sant Mat Philosophy at its best.

Bingo! “ Ask, and Ye Shall Receive”, The Bible teaches!

The following is copied from one of my books about Gnostic Religeon, that looks like pure Sant Mat, to me, with a few words changed from Sat Nam, Sach Khand, etc.It was called “ The Primitive Religeon.”

“THE PLANS OF THE CREATOR GOD
According to Gnostics, the creator god has many plans, which together make up his “grand plan”. This was the reason why he created the universe and man. To achieve his objectives he is going ahead with an evolutionary experiment in which the body, soul and the Spirit of man are taking part. He goes on practicing, trying things out, and if he succeeds he will extend the results to his entire created universe. If he fails, he will have to do away with this project and start again from scratch, as he has done so many times, to try something else again and again. The fact is that he will never be able to make a perfect copy of what he imagined is the unknowable world, which he tries to imitate in vain.
Without a doubt, in this last experiment he achieved success which, although imperfect, has some value. After millions of years of fruitless practicing, he has within a few thousand years made a notable step in the evolution of his greatest work: man. After millions of years of evolutionary suspension in which the hominid man lived like just another animal, he has advanced more in the last 30,000 years than throughout all of history. Gnostics associate this mutation or “creation”, this great evolutionary jump, with the use of Spirits of the greatest purity coming from the uncreated world.
The creator god modelled a body from the dust of the earth and, with his breath, gave it an animic element, the soul. To this soul, this breath of the creator, he affixed a Spirit, which was trapped through trickery and imprisoned against Its will in this satanic monstrosity of dust and breath: the body and soul of man. It is the divine energy of the imprisoned Spirit which impelled and continues to impel the evolution of the man-animal!
And why does the creator want this being to evolve? So that it will transform itself gradually into him. That is why he made his precepts and commands. He wants man to transform into himself, the creator, to become the same as him. The body and soul would be very happy if this happened because they are part of the creator god. But the Spirit is not part of him; It has another origin and another destiny.
As long as the Spirit is chained up, everything goes well, It impels evolution. But if even one Spirit frees Itself It disturbs the whole plan. That is why it is so important that the tyranny of the demiurge is absolute, and that all knowledge which could wake man up and make him remember who he really is, remains forbidden because it would be dangerous knowledge, so dangerous that it would be able to destabilise the plan of the creator god. According to Gnosis, only one Spirit which can free Itself would be able to weaken the whole creation and also weaken the creator god, preventing him from continuing with his plans. This Spirit would be a saviour, a saviour of the world and the other Spirits. It would favour the liberation not only of other men but of the entire universe, of the innumerable divine sparks coming from the uncreated and eternal world which find themselves imprisoned here, in this great blind machine, in order to make it work and evolve.
This system, created by the demiurge, cannot function unless it possesses these particles of the Spiritual world enslaved, imprisoned here. Gnostics say that of all these Spiritual particles, those imprisoned in human beings are the most important in Spiritual hierarchy and purity.
The demiurge created and assembled all this and encourages it to evolve. So that it evolves towards him, with the human being ahead. If the experiment with man fails, he will lay his hands on another of his creatures and try again.
We have said that the demiurge wants man to evolve until he turns into him and becomes the same as him, so that every soul, or in other words his own breath, and everyone made of dust can return to him, transforming themselves into him. This is the final objective that the demiurge has for man.
Because of all this, it is fundamental to the demiurge to keep the Spirit imprisoned so that he can use Its energy. This is why the demiurge needs man to remain half-asleep and confused so that man keeps on blindly approaching him, the creator, who lures him with tricks and punishment. For this whole system to work, man has to keep on believing that the creator is the only god that exists and that he is a good god.
Gnostics maintain that if man evolves to the point where he merges with his creator, at that moment his Spirit will lose all possibility of freeing itself while this universe lasts.”

Jim Sutherland

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jim!

You wrote:

"777 wrote,....”There is no expiration date of the Soul”

Me: I disagree. Soul is a creation of Universal Mind, which does have, an expiration date, along with every individual created soul, as “ the Breath of lfe was breathed in to men who BECAME living souls “

I think there may be a small degree of confusion here.

Soul is a drop of the creator. This is what the "creator" breathed" that was never born and has no end. Mind is the layer that covers soul as it passes through the lower regions, and then the layer of body. It is actually a layer of karmic dust. When God creates in Genesis notice that the place in which he creates Adam and Eve is a place where no creatures eat other creatures. They are all vegatarian. When Adam and Eve are thrown out of the Garden of Eden, they go to a place where they must kill to eat and survive.

The Garden of Eden is not the physical location of this earth, but a region above, a region of mind. It is mind that makes the drop of the creator an individual "man". We are no longer individuals, at least that can be defined as separate, without that covering. We are still drops of the creator, but not definable by different histories or characteristics. At that point we are all lights purely reflective of that One Light, actually part of it, able to merge into it, and to be sent back out from it. The defining difference is the will of our Father alone.

We are, here, as St. Paul so eloquently wrote, Soma Psyche, bodies of mind, covered in flesh.

"42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body [in Gree, Soma Psyche, a body of Mind], it is raised a spiritual body.

"If there is a natural body [Soma Psyche, body of Mind], there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural [body of Mind], and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. "
1 Corinthians 15: 42-47

The first "Man" was the Mind...Manos..Greek for Man (or Psyche, Greek for Mind). We become Spirit when we leave Mind altogether. Spirit and soul, the drop of spirit, is eternal.

[Spencer Tepper]

The sanskrit for mind is Manas.

The creation of man is the creation of mind.