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March 26, 2011


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WHO can practice yoga ?

Does not the practice of yoga
infer the person believes he
has a WHO that can practice it ?

The world is the only way it can

But, it was not created perfectly,
because Mother Nature was asleep
when She created it.

We the butterflies of intemporality,
contained in the evelasting hour glass
of the Universe, must wake up Mother
Nature, from her drunken stupor.

"Seek and you shall find"..."Be silent and know I am God"..even the Bible entertains this paradox


Indian Rope trick







It seems a bit of a waste of time to practise for years just to realize 'this is it' and that there is no need to practise.

If was to meditate for hours a day for my whole life and to come to the conclusion that the answer to all my questions is 'this is it' - I would feel really really cheated.

The average high school / college party animal could give me the same advice.

I sometimes wonder if meditators start off behind the 8-ball in terms of emotional/social intelligence, and engage in meditation as a way to catch up to the average person.

This is a view in stark contrast to the often held belief by meditators that they are somehow superior to the average person in terms of evolution.

You can read stories about serious meditators who spend years meditating in solitude, but are not able to function in the ordinary world of jobs, business, family.

What was gained? An ability to sit in the same spot for hours? The average desk job can teach you that.

I thought one of the purposes of meditation was to try to access information directly beyond the current capabilities of humankind.

If a meditator comes to the conclusion that ‘this is it’ – it suggest to me that what they’re actually saying is :

(1) 'I could not access any information beyond the ordinarily understood capabilities of human beings’ or

(2) I did not get anywhere in my meditation, I followed this practice to a dead end, and now that I can see it is a dead end, I can get on with real life.

Of course, I acknowledge there are proven benefits to a little meditation everyday (eg. the ability to concentrate better, stay in the present moment).

Dear Tony,
Very interesting post.

As you may have guessed, many of us here
have meditated at least 2 hours a day
for decades, often longer.

Tested every yoga under the sun.
From Zen to Radhasoami.

Go here and read the U. G. Krishnamurti link.


Enlightenment, or realization, causes a real problem.

The 'seeker' will realise there is no self
at the end of the journey.

Therefore, this is all there is.

The inner planes, kundalini, shakti, chakras
and Sach Kand do not exist.

It turns out everything was physical.

From hormones to neurons to mental delusions.

Nothing is spiritual.

Consciousness is temporal.

Consciousness is temporal and lasts in
mili seconds. 'Our' core basis is temporal.

The Universe is forever. The problem is,
our consciousness is not.

The substance we are made of will last

"WHO" (temporal consciousness, which mistakenly
personalizes itself) can survive death ?

We are flittering butterflies, haphazardly
flying into the mouth of the Dragon.

"Give a savage a watch .......
and he believes it has a soul."
quote Napoleon Bonaparte

Meditation is not about realising there is no self at the end of the journey, as you put it. It is about realising God and higher states of consciousness. It is about merging with the Godhead to experience samadhi to gain enlightenment and freedom from suffering.

You may ask how i know this. You may as well ask what knowledge is and get a straight answer.

There are numerous benefits to meditation, not just a little concentration and focus. That is merely the very beginning of the fruits of meditation.

I agree that meditating for 40 years and experiencing nothing is a waste of time. But people meditate for spiritual reasons and those that don't are definitely wasting their time. Besides this, Brian, the author of this blog, is dishonest because he says he heard the bell sound once. What else has he experienced that he doesn't communicate here we wonder?

Kundalini and chakras do exist but they can be confused with parts of the physical body and loads of tantra pseudo spiritual crackpots think that orgasms are kundalini and perception of nerves in the spine. That is such a small part of kundalini it is really laughable that these charlatans get away with such rubbish.

As far as Mike Williams is concerned, by his own testimony he is a schizophrenic. He claims that meditation makes people insane and he has experienced this insanity. This is utter bullshit and nonsense. If meditation made people insane almost the whole of south east Asia would be full of deranged psychotic spastics, which fortunately isn't true.

UG Krishnamurti was a complete idiot. For some reason he claims to have experienced enlightenment and kundalini and in the next sentence he says it is all bullshit. What a NUTBAR! Jiddhu Krishnamurti was as about as enlightened as a dirty smelly sock. All he did was ask questions in answer to questions. Just abundant ignorant speculative bollocks through and through.

David, be cautious about calling someone -- like me -- dishonest. You're wrong about that, so you could be wrong about other assertions in your comment.

I said that shortly after I was initiated I heard the sound of a bell in my head. I have no idea what caused that sound. People hear all sorts of things. My brain very well could have produced the sound in an excess of devotional excitement.

My wife suffers from tinnitus now and then; she hears ringing in her ears, but that isn't God speaking.

As to whether I'm holding back any marvelous spiritual/mystical experiences: no, I'm not. And I'm pretty sure that the many other long-time meditators with whom I've talked over the past decades aren't being dishonest when they talk about their lack of such experiences.

In line with my most recent post about people being really sure about things they should be uncertain about, I'm struck by how confident you are in generalizing your own personal experience and/or beliefs.

Friendly suggestion: try saying "I believe" or "I think" more, or at least make your writing style reflect the subjectivity of what you're claiming is true.

You are conflating tinnitus with the spiritual vibration, which is common and not unheard of. But this is a categorical error. In order for you to be able to bridge the idea that the bell sound you heard and your current wife's tinnitus are linked, you would have had to indulge in the fallacious idea that you don't even know in truth the distinction between them. This is not an honest or accurate apprisal of the experience you deliberatly condone in these blogs.

The long term meditators you claim to have known are not known in general, nor in any particular you have deigned to note. They could be "friends" of yours over the years who have no more experience than you do. I wouldn't automatically jump to the conclusion that the history of religious experience is suspect based on that!

Confidence has nothing to do with the words used to communicate ideas. You perhaps see things in what i have said that you have taken to be ego trip confidence instructions for novices! No, i covered most tails with my post i left little to be criticised, and i see you are picking the chaff to cover your butt here.

I don't have to claim anything is true beyond what i have learnt from my sensory experiences and other teachers. Everything i have said comes from other people. So it is hard to nail me down like you have tried to, and make out i am making claims that cannot be substantiated. I am all but glad to reference my influences and give footnotes to look up.

David, like you, I've read a lot of spiritual/mystical writings, and I've had a lot of sensory experiences.

So if I gave you a list of what writers and teachers support my beliefs, along with a description of my personal experiences which lead me to consider that my beliefs are true, would you accept that as proof that I'm right?

No? That's the answer I'd expect. Which is the same answer you've gotten from me when you tried to convince me and other blog comment readers that your assertions about spirituality are true.

Everybody has his or her own opinion in this area. You're entitled to yours, as I am to mine. What I object to is absolutist statements being thrown out as gospel truth, when they're actually just personal opinions.

I'm not tried to nail you down. You've nailed yourself down. Simply say "I don't know what, if anything, exists beyond the physical" and you'll unnail yourself. I'm happy to say those words. Ah, it feels good to be unnailable. Try it; you might like it.

"As far as Mike Williams is concerned, by his own testimony he is a schizophrenic."
quote David

Goosh, I must have missed that testimony.

But, I do have some juicy scandal on
Brian. This tape was sent by a Rajinder mole. It shows Brian (in a black cap)
teaching his Tai Chi class.

Now you have some real ammunition against
we exsatsangis.


What are the 'true' fruits of meditation?

These fruits are spiritual in category?

Is a bell sound, a spiritual meditation experience? Would one need to hear a sound from a bell, to know that this specific sound is a bell sound? How did that sound become a spiritual sound? Could a honking horn be a spiritual fruit of meditation?

Does the brain(mind) play a role in understanding the experience from meditation. How would a satmat meditation experience be confimed spiritual?

Tell me something, in your own words.

Mike Williams,

You didn't miss that testimony. You are a self-confessed schizophrenic because you claimed that meditation made people schizophrenic and you have not only meditated but meditated a lot and performed all different kinds of meditations.

It would be interesting to see if you would admit to being insane now.

Blogger Brian,

Unlike you, i have had experiences that i KNOW are not "normal". So if i went along with your contention that i should admit to NOT KNOWING otherwise, i would have to be lying to myself and anybody else that reads this.

And the answer to your question is "yes". Not "no".

You don't really impress me much. On one hand you say that you have had a spiritual experience and on the other hand you deny it by claiming you could have been mistaken. The real mistake here is not that you were mistaken initially but that you now think you were/are.

If i was you i would close this website down out of emabarassment. There are only about 5 people that post comments here that seem to agree with your viewpoint, numerous others that post that don't agree with you, and then there is Tao, your resident HARE KRISHNA long time skeptic. How can this be taken seriously? You should ponder that.

David, thanks for your advice on how I should live my life, and this blog, but I'm content with making my own decisions on that front.

This blog gets between 500 and 800 daily page views from people around the world. That's satisfying to me. Before too long this here Church of the Churchless will reach the one million page views mark. So a lot more people read these posts than comment on the posts -- which is typical.

Also, occasionally I get emails from people who are appreciative of my churchless viewpoint, which encourages me to keep on preaching my ungospel.

I'm really not trying to impress people, so if you aren't impressed with me, my goal has been met. Thank you for affirming my unimpressiveness.

As to what is normal, psychosis isn't normal. Hallucinations aren't normal. Other forms of mental illness aren't normal. So I'm not sure what it means to have an abnormal experience.

Abnormal is one thing; other worldly or supernatural is another thing. It's easy to mistake one for the other. In my college years I had decidedly "abnormal" alterations in consciousness through psychedelic drugs. But I wouldn't call these "spiritual."

Likewise, all of your experiences have taken place while you were alive. So they transpired through the human brain, just as my psychedelic experiences did. The brain can do some pretty weird things which can seem "mystical" to the experiencer of them.

"It would be interesting to see if you would admit to being insane now."
quote David

That's hilarious. Your a funny guy.
First I never said meditation makes people nuts. I said kundalini yoga will make
you nuts if you are successful, which few
people are.

My experiences were from pranahuti yoga
and jnani yoga, etc, as I mentioned.
I was bringing the force down, not taking
it up the spine.

So, you don't like Jiddo Krishnamurti,
U. G. Krishnamurti, Mike Williams and

But, you love Kirpal Singh.

Goosh .... that's just pure genius.

Can you give me some good stock tips,
(so I can sell them short ?)

See. You are mad. I never said i had any affiliation with Kirpal Singh. You just made that up out of your own weird head.

Again, i don't know what the fuck you mean when you say that you bring a "force" up and down your spine. Only a mad person will say such nonsensical rubbish. UNless you have an explanation that involves glands, tissues, blood and sweat?

I am a pretty funny guy, granted. But i save my sense of humour for more real people i know. I don't waste it on mad people like you, Mike. I tend to state things seriously when it comes to the madness of blogs like this.

Hi David,

You don't know what it means to
take the so called force up,
or down your spine ?

Kundalini Vs. Pranahuti

By the way, a mad nonsensical fellow
named Ramana Maharshi talked of bringing
the highest energy DOWN the spine.

Opening the chakras from top down.

But, Ramana had to use the crude idealogies
of the past. No other way for him to explain
the jnani.

I hope you don't mind me saying this David.
But, for some strange reason I like you.

All the moles in the past have had no
personality. Very boring.

You have some pazzzaaaaz. Some personality.

I always complained Rajinder did not hire
top of the notch moles. Gurinder either.

They searched for their moles in the 99 cent
stores. They should have gone to Gucci.

I congratulate you on being the first mole
with personality.

If you don't mind me saying so, I appreciate
the first mole, not of minimum wage standard.

I really do like you !!!

Seriously. I like you !!!!

And, I know when you write your posts
you are laughing as hard as I am.

Your the type of fellow I could sit down
with and drink a beer.

As an exsatsangi, I hope you don't mind this subversive post.

"It would be interesting to see if you would admit to being insane now."
quote David

OK David, you nailed me. Here I am.


I am not into Shadb Yoga although some of the tenets resonate. I am a disciple of Paramahansa Yogananda but i haven't had much chance to meditate properly.

What is pranahuti?

The semen itself doesn't go up and down the spine. Perhaps you are referring to cerebrospinal fluid - although the kundalini is an astral body phenomena.

There's nothing insane about Yogananda whatsoever. It is worth reading the testimonies of his disciples. His lessons are unparalleled. Perhaps you could explain to me how he knew things far ahead of his time and predicted the future? Then again, you may not have read much of his stuff.

No, i don't think you are mad. I do think you have let your skepticism get the better of you though.

As for Neitzche, i haven't read any of his stuff but you mentioned some theory of his concerning deja vu. I don't think his theory of deja vu is correct at all.

Then there is seance evidence and tons of material spanning hundreds of years of paranormal reports. Did you know that the co-disoverer of the theory of evolution by natural selection, Alfred Russell Wallace, became a spiritualist? You can download a PDF somewhere on line of one of his books about miracles. It is very persuasive.

Something i am trying to work out at the moment is whether the OM sound is tinnitus and what relationship there is between those 2 things and REM intrusion meditation in place of sleep. Seeing lights and hearing sounds seem to be related to waking earlier than usual and meditating where the body gets sleep paralysis, the inner ear bones ocsillate in REM, the senses switch off, and it is possible to have an OOBE. Also related to REM sleep is sexual arousal, and so i think a meditator in REM may have feelings of orgasm, which could potentially be felt going up the spine to the brain.

My 2 cents worth.

Hi David,

Yes, Neitzche would be great
for you to read. I have also
been initiated in the surat
shabda yoga of Yogananda.

Yogananda backed Hitler in print
and was very sexually active.

Alfred Wallace discovered evolution
25 years after Darwin. But, notified
Darwin just one year before Darwin
published what took hin 25 years of reasearch to write.

Both Stalin and Mao were Darwinists
and that's why communists were generally

Regarding tinitus, there were a couple
of British scientists a few years back,
that discovered the root causes of inner

We know of the bone causes, but they found
more rooted in the brain.

There is now a helmet that can be worn
to stimulate the brain, which will cause
the sounds to appear.

There was one Guru named Ram Chandra
who made predictions in his books many
years ahead of the event.

He predicted Russia would break up from
withinn itself, when Russia was at the zenith of its power.

I am convinced kundalini does not exist.

As for pranahuti, I do believe it exists.

Both Ram Chanda and Ramana were pranahuti.
I was initiated by Ram Chandra in 1982.

But, his successor seems to have usurped
guru lineageship.

A genuine pranahuti master will always
be a jnani. But, a jnani is rarely a pranahuti master.

If you are referring to the God Helmet by Persinger, i think you will find it is not peer reviewed or legitimate.

Other than that, i can generally understand the gist of what you mean.

Do you know the names of the British scientists that researched the 'root causes of inner ear sounds'?

Hi Tony M.

No, I don't remember the British scientists
but the British tinnitus asscociation should


Tinnitus is caused by many factors.
Asprin, Antibiotics, Antihistamines,
Cholesterol, loud noise, head trama, etc.

I have had the loud ringing in my
ears since childhood. In fact, it is so
loud, I can't take hearing tests
at the doctors with earphones.

William Shatner and Pete Townsend talk
of tinnitus and hearing loss.



On my website, I note a study in sound proof
chambers where 80% of people will hear
various sounds in this condition.

Mike Williams,

WHat is Pranahuti?

Hi David,
Pranahuti is a little difficult
to explain in a few sentences, but
here's the general idea. Again, there
are no pranahuti masters that I know,
that are living at this time, but of course
their are always claimaints.

Pranahuti is like pouring energy down
the shushumna. It opens from the top
down, what might be thought of as centres.

The opposite of kundalini, which coils up.
Kundalini usually thought of as fulfilling
itself at the thousand peteled lotus on top the head.

But, this is not the top lotus of pranahuti.
There is theoreticaly a Higher Heart Charka
above the four head chakras, which curls back down into the right side of the chest.

Not to be confused with the lower heart chakra.

So, concentration is on the higher Heart Chakra, not the third eye.

Pranahuti hits the Higher Heart chakra,
or centre and opens it, then travels
down the head centres and spine.

The exact opposite of kundalini.

This prevents all the problems with kundalini and the subconscious mind.

The lower centres begin to resonate
and are gently opened with no problems.

A master of pranhuti has to be taught by
his master how to find this energy, then
focus it to his disciples.

Pranahuti groups will see and hear all
the same things as Sant Mat people, but
are told to ignore them. These things
are seen as distractions.

Ramana Maharshi gave good discriptions
of pranahuti also and transfered secretly.
He said that opening from the top was
far superior. And, he wrote of the process in books quite explicitly. I used to quote
him quite often on this, but have lost
track of the specific books.

Ram Chandra transfered to knowing disciples
and the theory was gone into, in detail in
his books.

A preceptor gives transference every week
privately. Besides the daily direct from
the Master during meditation.

Very advanced theory

Hi Mike,

Well, it sounds like a paranormal thing to me. Transferance of energies etc

Who would you recommend in terms of yogic practice? Ramana Maharshi? I like his stuff but it seems to me that his teaching is rather like transcendental meditation (TM) in its effects. That is, a dissociated state of awareness as a "witness" consciousness and subsequent awareness of the omnipresent "self", and then always abiding as that.

It also seems to me that Yogananda and Sant Mat is about astral projection. You hear the OM and see the light then go into the light (like NDE) and you are in the astral realms. Yogananda doesn't quite describe it that way, but it seems quite obvious if you study the teachings and read between the lines.

In sleep paralysis, there are various inner sounds from hissing, roaring, to a jet engine overhead. This seems to be due to the inner ear. People practice conscious sleep paralysis in order to have an OBE. Hence i think these inner sounds could also be known as the OM sounds. Apparently if you can keep listening to this sound it gets louder and louder, while the body starts to vibrate with electrical sensations, and if you don't project the sound dies off.

I just got hold of one of the oldest Yogananda teachings and he specifically says that when you plug your ears to listen to the OM sound you should continue to listen past the sounds the bod makes, like heart beat and circulation, AND RINGING IN THE EARS, to get to the OM sound. For some reason this has been taken out of the standard lessons that SRF give out.

Hi David,
I would not recommend Ramana Maharshi.
Typically david Goodman and others translated his language badly.

I recommend Ramesh Balsekar books.
Nothing else. He nailed it in
perfect speech.

Also, The Realization of No Self,
by Bernedette Roberts. Full blown
enlightenemnet perfectly explained
without any dogma.

These books are all a person needs.

Everything else can be thrown away.


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