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January 09, 2011


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Yes i heard that from you many times but where do you have sexual energy suppressed, I don't have it. Yes but are we mad than, you,Lane,Brian..me? I think something is missing out of your explanation or your understanding i mean i don't wan't to diss you or something cause i respect you but something is missing.

Mike Williams,
Your knowledge to Beas history is limited,
You have been misguided and got infused with misinformation about the Radhasoami story.

Salig ram was not at all an deserving Master,
Soami ji never wanted to have any master in agra,
but he knew,this decision of his will create a choas,so he had to create agra lineage,to just avoid chaos and war.

Soami ji has clearly stated that the only person who will head the spirituality would be from Beas masters.

According to him Jaimal singh was the only deserving disciple to become a master.

Mike you gather wrong information.
Your research is incorrect.

Soami ji clearly stated that the real spiritual power will spread through Jaimal singh from beas.

Because Agra lineage never liked soami ji association with jaimal,they created stories out of proportionate.

You even have no complete information about Kirpal lineage.
Though i agree its the dangerous cult,for a very valid reason.Which almost many people do not know.

If you want some information exchange email me at [email protected]

Will open your eyes.
And free your mind.

Hi Tom,
I see what you are trying to get at. Can you
practice kundalini yoga and not become mad
in the process.

The answer is yes, but you have to be trained
properly. For instance, when trained by true adepts
in Surat Shabda Yoga, you are not only taught how
to take the energy up, but more importantly,
you are taught how to take the energy back down.

No Radhasoami group teaches the aspirant how to
take the energy BACK DOWN.

Taking manipulated sexual energy and forcing it
in the head can blow a persons mind. Because
Radhasoami only uses the first initiation.
And, not even the whole first initiation.

It is terribly dangerous to leave the sexual
energy in the head after meditation.

Kirpal said don't even bother to meditate
without chastity. The reason why is sexual energy
is absolutely key to kundalini energy coming alive.

For instance, when I met Hariharinanda in advanced
age, he had never had sex in his life. Jiddo Krishnamurti
was the same. The old Indian culture understood
this tradition.

There are 7 initiations in Surat Shaba Yoga.
Surat Shabda Yoga is incredibly complex in nature
and Radhasoamis have essentially no clue
what they are doing, or why.

To put it bluntly, the Radhasoami will fry his brain
if he is successful. But, since few have chastity,
or the proper tantric techniques, very few Radhasoamis
ever get anywhere in meditation.

Kundalini does not actually exist, but the organs
and glands and neurons do become excited and activated.
It is a physical process, not mystical.

Yes, it can be done without mental illness when
properly trained.

To put it bluntly, the Radhasoami will fry his brain
if he is successful. But, since few have chastity,
or the proper tantric techniques, very few Radhasoamis
ever get anywhere in meditation.

-----Brian still has healthy brain also Lane and still meditating

--------I already read this things from you many times and what i was trying to say that i think you confused somethings to yourself. But you are so sure in your belives that you think are facts. I wonder what is your sadhana today and how many hours did you spent in rs meditation and did it burned according to you your brains i mean did you suffered from this meditations or did you bared some fruits.peace

Hi Tom,
It is true I am a 4th degree initiate
in Surat Shabda Yoga. This has no meaning
to a Radhasoami.

But, again, it must be stated the inner
planes do not exist as real places.
The inner planes are complete mental
fabrications from the genetics of man.

No matter how far you advance in Radhasoami
you will never become enlightened. There
is no form of kundalini yoga, no matter how advanced,
that will ever make you enlightened.

I practice no yoga, or method, or means, or
religion, nor beliefs.

This is because I can not find my 'self'.

I do not believe I exist.

The only thing that exists in me is

Functioning cannot be saved, nor redeamed.

Nor, can functioning be called enlightened.

Lord forbid anyone ever call me a disciple.

I see no masters, or disciples.

Hi Mack Ara,
You stated "Soami ji clearly stated that the real
spiritual power will spread through Jaimal Singh from Beas."

Mack, I hope you don't mind me going off

But, I just happen to have a plot of land in Florida
I think you would love. OK, I will admit it is a bit swampy... and OK, I admit
there are a few alligators about.... but
it has great location. And, as you know location is everything in real estate.

May I suggest you buy an acre ,or two ?

Mike Williams:But, again, it must be stated the inner
planes do not exist as real places.

...I never thought inner places were actual places mabe you did,thus you have to state that so often cause you are convincing your self with your philosophy and i convince my self with my.

Mike:No matter how far you advance in Radhasoami
you will never become enlightened.

...Look if you are not enlighted you cannot say anything about it, till than it is only hearsay-

I practice no yoga, or method, or means, or
religion, nor beliefs.

This is because I can not find my 'self'.

I do not believe I exist.

The only thing that exists in me is

Functioning cannot be saved, nor redeamed.

Nor, can functioning be called enlightened.

Lord forbid anyone ever call me a disciple.

I see no masters, or disciples.

...that is fine with me as long as you enjoy cause i am only interested in Now and Flow.I don't care about enlightment anymore or inner places or technique or is it kundalini or shabd ..peace Mike

To Mack Ara,
You may be wondering why I found your
statement from Swami ji about Jaimal
and Beas so funny.

In 1878 Swami Ji died. Jaimal didn't even
start Beas until 1891. So the quote
you give from Swami Ji regarding Beas is impossible.

Not even Beas makes silly mistakes like that.

I was not at all wondering at all,
Because you are unaware of truth,not me,
So rather i was feeling funny for you.

I know when Swami ji died,i know when Beas started its organisation.

But what was funny in your observation was the link of the death of swami ji and the starting time of beas by jaimal singh ji.

swami ji directed jaimal to continue in punjab,after his retirement.

He has not specified time or any immediate need for jaimal singh to start the organisation after his death.

Like i already said,mike you need to dig deeper and need to dig hard.
There are many more evidences available Mike,

You need to start the investigation,once again,visit dayal bagh again.

The real spiritual follower and discple of swami ji was jaimal singh.

And agra lineage was one of the most weakest,complicated,disputed lineage of Radhasoami lineage.

And the reason Agra is finding ways to patch up with Radhasoami,beas.

And thats the reason in the history of Beas masters,
present master Guriender singh Dhillon,is helding satsang at Agra,On Jan 25,26th 2012.

This will be the occasion which will make an history.

Mike,there are many many evidences,which Dayal bagh tried to gather,in which they weren't successful,

Few of evidences i have seen with my own eyes,
but then you can't have them physically or else get it copied or get it clicked.
You can just only have the chance to see it with your naked eyes.
Thats it.

I have followed this blog for past 6 months and read most of the posts of many regular bloggers.

Lot of incorrect information has been posted in this blog.

But we cannot stop anyone to post his thoughts,imagination,experience or his kind of information.

Apart from everything,
One thing is sure,Truth is Truth.

No matter however we try to tarnish it,modify it or change it.
We cannot Change the truth.

I too have direct meets and discussion with most of the masters of the Radhasoami Lineage.

Hi Mack Ara,

Look, I see you are young and admire
your gumption.

But, you must realize I am old (59)
and am trying hard not to blow you ten miles
out of your socks.

I am trying hard not to embarrass you.

Do you know Agra now has a new master there ?

Do you know how funny it woud be for Gurinder
to speak there ?

Gurinder is a piss ant to these people.

Before you make stuff up off the top of your head,
please realize not just myself,
but most the people here could drag you
though the mud.

Also, please remember, this is a socialist
club. We share our dope here (being exsatsangis).

We have a feeling you are Bogarting your
joints. So, we will wait for you to come
clean and start sharing with your brothers
and sisters on this club.

We are forgiving, as long as the stuff
is top grade.

Mike do you come as tAo also i think you are the same and one person.

Tom, I can assure you that Mike and tAo are different people. (Of course, Mike likely would deny that he is a "self," so philosophically it could be argued that we all are the same.)

I too can assure you that Mike and I are two distinct individuals. However, Mike and I are old friends. Mike and I go waaay baaack to the beginning...


or at least you too have very similar things went through with all these gurus and yogas and stuff.

Gosh tAo man where are you i am waiting and waiting i almost thought you were gone off these forums.And again i checked my email today no news fom tAo.

p.s. hea tAo today i start with weights again i hardly wait,peace too you

Hi Tao and Brian,

It's been a long strange journey for
all of us.

And, the question I most ask to myself
is, how can these gurus look people
straight in the eye and lie like champs ?

Faquir Chand called them criminals. And,
oddly enough the word Saint and the word
criminal often describe the same person.

This would seem to indicate religion has
a very negative underbelly.

So often a religion seems like a Mafia.

It is amazing how groups expand. Like Christians
and Muslims and Radhasoamis. They throw off
predictable offshoots and preachers in what
seems like a mathematical pattern.

Wherever there is an easy buck to be made,
some preacher will show up to take it.

They always have to break from the original
group that produced them. And, the list
of excuses runs common.

What is astonishing, is everyone believes
he has found the true path, no matter how
obscure their group is.

Sometimes i feel,that all the old people are losing there patience and memory power,
thats why you are also being too aggressive,
rather impatient.

I think you are loving yourself in your own imaginary world.

My post are based on Personal live Facts,
you may be 59 year old,
But i have been with the researches,followers who are even more elder than your father,
having immense experience than anyone in this blog.

You have gather incorrect information from wrong people.

And do not splash your forced views on dayal bagh or beas.

I know better than you do and you know.

And about Agra having new master,
they keep on having many masters,
As Agra Dayal bagh is the only organization having disputed and often changed masters.

As you are 59,Enjoy your age,with your imaginary,wrongly gathered information.

I too myself doesn't feel like it would be appropriate to continue replying you.

If you have the urge to know real facts,
Visit me in Dayal bagh,
I will show you.
Unless there is no use of talking to someone whose tone depends on his Age but not real experiences.

Happy Aging Mike.

One more thing Mike,
There's a disciple still alive who have served one of the Radhasoami Master,
And he was the only Sewadar who was with the master at the time of death.

His age would be approx around 80+ but yeah he would be more active and energetic.

He would may reveal many unknown facts to you.

I can arrange a meeting with him,
But for that you need to be apologized for your incorrect information shared and spread ed over internet and offline.

Then only i can manage to make you meet him.
If you have interested to know unknown facts about salig ram dude.

and rest dayal bagh and kirpal bagh true story.

Not created one like of yours.


Mack Ara stated,

"Agra... keep on having many masters.
As Agra Dayal bagh is the only organization
having disputed and often changed masters."

First Agra has not had a master since 1949.
They just reported recently they have a new master after all that time.

Agra and Dayal Bagh are two seperate groups.
Dayal Bagh is down the street from from
Peepal Mandi, another seperate group.

I was initiated by Dr. Prof. Agam Mathur,
great grandson of Salig Ram, whom lives in
Salig Ram's house.

Dr. Mathur is the 8th leading historian in India
and the Vice Chancellor at Agra College.

Mathur is in possession of all of Salig Ram's original letters and works.

Mathur is the best living Radhasoami historian alive.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Dayal Bagh as I rarely ever talk about them.

I used to go to their satsangs, but never took their initiation because Dr. Lal at that time admitted he was not a Guru.

There are extremely few white people in this group, it is almost exclusively Indian.

Caveat Emptor

Ah, now you've clearly stated your 'lineage' Mr Williams ... puts a lot into perspective & makes certain criticisms above redundant!

"now you've clearly stated your 'lineage' Mr Williams"
quote Seeker2011

I have been initiated by 7 different
Radhasoami Gurus from various groups.

Was never initiated by Agra, nor did
I ever attend their satsangs.

So, it is ironic I pick their lineage
as the only true lineage.

But, I do not believe in Radhasoami
Faith at all, meaning I find all
RS groups false.

Mike, did you think they would all guide you in the inner journey or were you just covering your bases?!

Hi Catherine,

I not only took the initiations from
7 Radhasoami gurus, I took many many
more from several groups unrelated.

Yes, there was something I was looking for.

And, it could only be told by an initiation.

You might call it the 'juice'.

Did the guru actualy have any power, or
did they just talk a good game ?

There were gurus with power, but they were
extremely rare.

There turned out to be two types of power.

One negative and one positive.

The negative power was much more common.

The positive power was extremely rare.

A negative power runs in Kirpal based
groups, which is why I consider them the
most dangerous cults on the earth.

Beas has no power, either positive or negative, its just a religion.

I was aware of many fake masters such as sai baba, rajneesh, mahesh yogi, etc.
Skipped the obvious fakes.

"You even have no complete information about Kirpal lineage."
quote Mack Ara

Unfortunately I was attending Kirpal lineage
when Kirpal died. Kirpal said he would have no successor.

There is a small group in Irvine California,
which still prints Kirpal books to this day.

This small group is historically correct.

Kirpal said he would leave no successor. but,
in fact he did leave a will to Darshan.

Althought lost for awhile, the will was
confirmed to be Kirpal's handwriting.

So, while Kirpal told all his Reps a master
could not be left by will, he IN FACT LEFT
the astonishing idiot Darshan Singh as succcessor in his denied will. Kirpal
denied he had a will to everyone. But, when he died, a will popped up in his own handwriting saying Darshan had reached the same inner levels as himself: and was the new master.

Kirpal had broke from Beas because he said the master power could not be transferred by will and had said Sawan had transferred power to him via the eyes on his deathbed.

Kirpal was nuts. Darshan was a space cadet.
Rajinder is a mind numbing asshole, advertising between PGA golf games and episodes of Criminal Minds.

I have seen Rajinder ADDS TO ATTEND HIS SATSANGS IN LAUNDROMATS hanging on the
cork mat peg boards.


Rajinder sucks. He can sue me if he wishes.

And, I suspect Rajinder will be the first.
The countersuit I will file will devestate Rajinder.

Rajinder is the worlds greatest twit.
An incredibe moron.

He needs to do time in a federal prison.

Rajinder needs to clean shit out of barns.

In fact Rajinder is a piece of shit.

Hey Rajinder, suck on this


What you don't realize is America
is a place of heart and soul.

Two bit scam artists ARE NOT WELCOME.

Rajinder, suck on this



Did you know a person named Reno Sirrine? Your posts interested me to read through some of the Sat Sandesh magazines, found on-line. I wonder what he truely thought of the Kirpal path, after Kirpal's death. Do you have any personal experiences of Reno? In addition, do you know what happened to the ashram, Reno started in Aneheim, California?
This is more of a historical inquery. Thanks Roger

"Mike, Did you know a person named Reno Sirrine?"
Quote Roger

Sure did. Only lived 10 miles away from him
at the time he was in Anaheim. I may stil have stacks
of Sat Sandesh about.

Reno was a cool guy. Very likable. In fact,
many Kirpal people were very likable.

The most memorable moments were when there were
rumors Kirpal had written a will before he died.

Kirpal had denied master power could be transferred
by will and therefore escaped the Jagat will from

But, when Kirpal died and it was learned Kirpal
had written a will in favor of Darshan, all hell
broke loose.

I cannot describe the feeling of betrayal by
Kirpal initiates when they learned he had lied
when he had said he had no will previously.

Many people just left the group and faded
into obscurity. There was no question Kirpal was
a lying bastard in their minds.

Some idiots like myself went to Ajaib, Thakar
and Darshan. I went to all three and was
re initiated. Met them all in person.

Knew Darshan and Thakar the best.

My dislike of Darshan was total and complete.
His sickening humility made me choke. He was
a bastard off camera and an egomaniac.

On the other hand, Thakar was the nicest guy
in the world (when he was not under the spell
of evil spirits, by his own admission).

Thakar had the juice and everyone was blown
away at initiation with experience. This
spread and people came running to him to
get inner experience.

But, like I said, there are two powers.

One positive and one negative.

In my book I printed the secret letter
of Thakar admitting Kirpal's ashram
was full of evil spirits and he was
being attacked by them.

I the same letter Thakar admitted sexual

I was a Beas (Charan) initiate, but I went with a friend, also a Charan initiate, to see Thakar just for giggles and grins and ended up getting initiated. There was another Beas initate there who kept looking away like she was embarrased and hoped we wouldn't recognise her. All of us were conflicted by attending another guru's satsang. Religion lays all sorts of guilt trips on you for harmless behavior. Thakar did have some "juice" though as you say. I saw some sort of blue light and got good energy being around him. I later discovered this "good energy" is ubiquitous and the blue light was an occular migraine.

I was a Beas (Charan) initiate, but I went with a friend, also a Charan initiate, to see Thakar,,said by Tucson

Hey Tucson i remember once i heard on Charan tapes that someone told him that he went to see Thakar with his friend ..were you that?

I not only took the initiations from
7 Radhasoami gurus


Mikey i was wondering are this seven gurus fighting for you if we belive that theology would be true to whom you would run at the end gosh Mike i hardly decided for one to be initiated from but you..? Mike for me it is really interesting to read your stories.. I really hope to see you guys someday...

.........Hey guys years back i was quait listening to Charans tapes and today i am wondering are some of you guys asking questions on that tapes?

Thanks Mike,

Did Reno spend his last days broken hearted? Or, just kept his devotion to Kirpal? I kinda feel bad for him. And, did the ashram or building in Aneheim come to an end? Your messages are very interesting. Thanks Roger

Hi Tucson and moongoes,

It was strange Thakar was loaded with the 'juice'
and yet Kirpal had displayed almost none.

Darshan had no power and neither did Ajaib.
Beas has never had any power at any time.

But, the legends of Salig Ram do show he
had it. And, that's why people focked to him.

Once word gets out, people come running.

95% of what you hear about Thakar is untrue.
Vested people lying about him being jealous.

The problem is 5% is true. And, this is a
major problem even if it was 5%.

Thakar on one hand spent many hours a day giving
talks and helping people, never seeming to rest
at all.

A beautiful personality on and off camera.

But, I received the circulars from his group
telling he was blindfolding kids at an early
age to go within.

I also printed the secret letter proving he
admitted being possessed by and attacked by
demons, especially at Kirpal's ashram, where
he said there were many.

The full forces of the occult world came
into play with Thakar.

It was as if a tremendous battle was playing out
in him by supernatural forces.

I sat in and watched hundreds and hundreds of people
get initiated. My own wife got initiated and had
a wonderful experience with Thakar.

But, these were high level experiences. Generally
of the causal and above.

People were just blown away literally.

Most peple never come into contact with any
occult power, either positive, or negative.

Most people speculate no powers exist.

Yes, moongoes, I was initiated by 7 Radhasoami
Gurus. And, I do not feel safe by having done

I reject Radhasoami and the power that
can sometimes associate.

Instead I like the positive power Ramana Maharshi
spoke of.

The positive power does not have to come as a result
of becomming jnani (realization of no self).

The positive power can work in all areas of life.

The positive power is concerned with the fate of
mankind. The positive power protects those whom
find themselves in areas of life, where they have
to go up against the staus quo and almost change
things single handedly.

The positive power can always defeat the negative
power. It seems to be all knowing and all powerful.

Although I do not believe in God, this positive
power comes closer then anything I know.

My own experience of Thakur was virtually same as Mike and Tucson.

I first went to see Thakur in Carmel, California, back in the early days of his ministry.

At that occasion, Thakur welcomed my wife and I to come with him to a small initiation that he was giving over near Santa Cruz. We told him that we were already formal initiates of RS Beas (Charan Singh). He said that's alright, you are welcome to come anyway.

So we attended the initiation, but only as observers. And like Mike said, he was a very likeable fellow, at least in those days.

However, I did not feel any extrordinary "juice" about him. He was very friendly and accomodating though, and he welcomed us to come visit him in India.

As it turned out, about six months later, we did go to India (to the RS Dera at Beas). After spending a few months with Charan at Beas, we came back to Delhi and then went over to see Thakut at the old Sawan Ashram, where he had set up camp.

While we were there, he was very nice to us and we stayed with him for a few weeks. There were only one or two other people there, and we would all have breakfast and dinners together with Thakur.

He eventually asked us if we wanted him to re-initiate us, and so we said "why not".

He initiated us alone in his private quarters, with only his wife there. It was really no different than RS initiation, and I felt no special power or energy from him. He was simply pleasant, soft-spoken and friendly.

Probably the primary reason that I felt no special energy from him, was that I had already had very powerful and profound mystical experiences of cosmic consciousness, many years prior to any affiliation with sant mat. These experiences had transformed me and given me a great deal of shakti and higher consciousness.

So compared to all that, I did not feel anything noticeably special or unusual about Thakur (nor did I with Charan, Kirpal, or Darshan - all of whom I had also met personally).

Looking back on all that now, I feel sort of stupid that I ever bothered to get involved with Radha Soami, Charan, Thakur, or any of it.

But on the other hand, that did actually help me toward realizing that none of those people (gurus) had anything (any power, energy, knowledge, wisdom, etc) that was any more spiritual or mystical than I did.

And that, is a very very important realization... one which has liberated me from all the various hype and myth of every sort of so-called mysticism, spirituality, or religion.

Man tAo i read your stories like a book so may i ask does your wife still meditate according to rssb initiation or did she also leave the technique and what is your sadhana today? And what deal of shakti did you get, and why did you leave surat shabd technique if you say you were successfull? sorry but if i knew i would not ask and i think alot alot of your writings ….peace,moongoes

I guess it's possible that was me talking about Thakar on the Charan tapes, but I don't remember doing so. Most likely was someone else.

tAo wrote:

"And that, is a very very important realization... one which has liberated me from all the various hype and myth of every sort of so-called mysticism, spirituality, or religion."

--I agree, and that was the main benefit of my association with Charan/Beas as well. My BS meter is on high alert. Helped me detect Ob*ma early on, but no one would listen.

Hi Tao,
Thakar and Hariharinanda (Yogananda lineage)
were the only two surat shaba masters that
I saw that produced near 100% inner experience
at initiation. There was a third, but I am
not allowed to talk about him.

I watched many hundreds get initiated by both.

And, most often sat in them again and again.(grin)

There was a very strong power present. An
extremely supernatural power. A very conscious
power. Even proxy initiations where these masters
were on the other side of the world produced
the same results.

I was to see this with some other masters also
not surat shaba based.

It never occurred to me it could be a negative
power. I thought power was always the same.

But,I was wrong. It turned out there were two
types of negative power. One rather primative
and the other highly conscious and very cunning.

The last I think of as a Satanic force quite

So, I don't believe in God, but do believe
Satan exists, but not as people perceive him.

So, Kirpal had no juice at initiation. But,
I saw many people become possessed by their
association with him.

Look at the masters that followed Kirpal.
Summa Ching Hai, Darshan, Ajaib, Thakar,
Paul Twitchell, Rajinder,etc.

It is claimed Thakar killed a lady he was
trying to get the Devil out of.

When I began to look closely in the eyes
of Darshan, I began to see something
unspeakable. (Him and Khanna.)

Look at the tapes of Kirpal.
Watch his eyes carefully.


After watching Kirpal, watch Ramana Maharshi.



Tucson....I guess it's possible that was me talking about Thakar on the Charan tapes, but I don't remember doing so. Most likely was someone else.

Yes i goes like this some man is telling Charan that they went with friend to see Thakar to remind them on Charan and so on...

Mike, yes I knew about Hariharananda too. I actually went and had a personal visit with him for an entire afternoon back in the 1970s, in the outskirts of the Washington DC area. I sensed that he had very positive energy. He was leaving town the next day. Never saw him again after that.

Hi tao and Tara,

Peepal Mandi, Dayal Bagh and Agra
are vastly Indian initiates.

Summa Ching Hai, Thakar branch off,
now has the fastest growing group
and she may be richer then Gurinder.

This group is mostly oriental.

Hariharinanda was a 7th degree surat
shabda Guru and all the manifestations
were present in him.

He never had sex in his life. He lived
to a very advanced age and had skin like
a babies. Yogananda had authorised
him to initiate in writing.

The same inner experiences Thakar people
received, Hariharinanda people received.

They both had the juice. Hariharinanda's book
editor, whom I knew, went to federal prison
for 6 months for copyright violations
of Yogananda books. He wrote me a condeming
letter after he got out of prison
about Hariharinanda, which I passed on
to David Lane many years ago.

There were other kundalini masters with juice.

Anything kundalini based I consider negative
power, when they do display power. Most Gurus do
not and simply talk a good game.

The proof of the pudding was in the eating.
The initiation told the story.

MW, 'I not only took the initiations from
7 Radhasoami gurus, I took many many
more from several groups unrelated.'

Thanks for so much information above on RS Gurus & their respective rites/rituals/acts (whatever you want to call it) of initiation ... so much good food for thought & it figures that - for some reason, I guess, quite personal to you - it was, may be still is, that action/process of initiation which was highly significant in & of itself. If I'm reading too much in to your comments, then I apologise.

For me, yes, I do see the significance of any act of so-called initiation what with us being social animals/groupies. We sort of like our acts of bonding & they can give us real highs, on that I agree. But - at the end of the day, that is when it comes to getting us to where we may think we want to go - for me, it's Ramana et al who pretty much say it all. Such acts, in & of themselves - whatever the initial / initiation high - are totally superfluous.

PS. just curious, cos I'm not well read in this area, what is actually meant by 'Hariharinanda was a 7th degree surat
shabda Guru and all the manifestations
were present in him.

Hi Seeker2011

7th degree sant mat master means Sat Nam region.
Also called Paramahansa (great swan)

There are also signs in and of body. I personally
sat 3 feet from Hariharinanda when he held his
breath for over 5 minutes.

U. G. Krishnamuti entered the death state and
also grew a couple little horns on his head
for awhile. His wife thought he died and so did he.

There are tons of books by people whom do not
have a clue about the occult. Who have never seen
and never experienced the supernatural.

What I call the 'juice' is actually a supernatural
manifestation produced through the master.

The master most often does not know it is occurring
himself. Look at Faquir Chand. He gave many such
instances of the supernatural occurring all
around him, yet said he did not willfully produce them.

Ramana Maharshi as I have quoted here many times, spoke
of a positive supernatural force which he could
consciously control and project on his followers.

The negative supernatural is most often not known
to the master as working. The positive supernatural
force can work unknowingly through the master,
or knowingly.

When the positive force is in a person, a negative
master can not look at him in the face.

The positive dominates the negative force, when
they meet.

This is why so many negative masters fell at
the feet of Jiddo Krishnamuti.

The occult world is complex. There are a zillion
flakes selling books about it.

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