Religions (and RSSB) should come with a guarantee

If a product lets buyers down, consumer advocates -- along with plain consumers -- jump into aggrieved action. Sometimes excessively.

I'm amazed that Consumer Reports, a magazine I love and have subscribed to for as long I can remember, still isn't recommending purchase of the iPhone 4 because of a minor antenna reception problem that really wasn't that big of a deal. However, it was a defect that Consumer Reports felt should have been fixed by Apple before the iPhone 4 was released.

This makes me wonder: Wouldn't it be great if religions came with a guarantee that salvation, enlightenment, or whatever, will be produced as promised to those who buy-in to the faith?

And if the spiritual goods aren't delivered on time and in working order, it'd also be wonderful if those who joined the religion after being lured by a fraudulent bait and switch deal could be compensated for the time, money, and devotion they contributed.

The problem, of course, is that Consumer Reports is able to put products through a rigorous testing process. If they don't work properly, such is fairly easy to determine.

With religosity, mysticism, and spirituality though, the purveyors of organized products (religions, cults, meditation systems, etc.) usually promise vague benefits and/or a vague delivery time -- such as after the user's death, at which point it's damn difficult to complain about the product.

Today I enjoyed reading an entertaining and insightful comment from Sunny Jay on a post that I wrote last month. The comment resonated with me and stimulated these thoughts, as Sunny Jay and I both have been members of the same India-based religious group, Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB).

Here's the comment, with a few typos fixed:

Hello everybody. All this reading is very entertaining, to say the least, and I have laughed alot but on a serious note...Walking away from RSSB was really psychologically damaging for me. For a long time there was much guilt and remnants of it still swirl in my mind.

Part of me wants to believe but let's face it...I have never met one satsangi [RSSB initiate] who has ever crossed the threshold of the third eye...all this talk in Science of the Soul and other books about riddhis and siddhis and spiritual powers and astral travelling to other regions. Has anyone actually had these experiences? Was all that stuff made up?

I have my own stories about RSSB too and how I got in and what made me leave....but I tend to find it is the promise of a spiritual experience that lures one into asking for initiation. The chance to "die whilst living" and see the "macrocosm in the microcosm". Walt Disney should make a movie about it. Can you imagine the special effects?!

Then I read about this thing called Kundalini. Most satsangis don't utter the "K" word at Haynes Park [RSSB center in England]. It's taboo...dark side stuff...like Lord Vader. What are your thoughts on that? Can anyone testify to a Kundalini awakening besides David Blaine? Probably not.

After being initiated for 4 years and practicing day in day out with all my gusto...saw nothing. I spoke to satsangis about it. The response I got was a joke. Anyway, it's reached the point where I scour the Earth for the Lament Configuration Box from the movie Hellraiser in order to unlock the realms of pleasure and pain...am I on the right path?

I'd say so, Sunny Jay.

(Never having watched a Hellraiser movie, I had to head to Wikipedia to learn what a Lament Configuration Box was. It sounds pretty neat, aside from the possibly undesirable fact that unlocking it leads to hell. Still, you'll end up somewhere interesting, which is more than can be said for the RSSB meditation you practiced.)

Now, I can anticipate the reaction of true believers to this comment. Which would be along the lines of what fervent devotees of any faith say to those who have tried that particular religious product, found it wanting, and moved on to sample other wares.

You weren't committed enough.
You didn't have enough love/devotion/energy/other quality.
You needed to stay with the faith longer.
You got the results you needed, not the results you wanted.
You didn't surrender your ego.
You wanted results, so you didn't get them.
You can't expect to sense the ineffable.
You forgot that God works in mysterious ways.

Well, I suppose the purveyor of any consumer product could come up with similar sorts of excuses. But they wouldn't go over any better than they did with Sunny Jay and me.

Sure, maybe that TV you bought which never showed a picture or sound will start working one day. Maybe.

And maybe God, in his/her/its unfathomable fashion, has a plan for you: to spend $1,000 on a new television and then sit in front of it for the next five, ten, or twenty years, staring at a blank screen. Maybe.

I just believe that when you're promised X if you get Y, and X doesn't materialize -- not only for you, but for everybody you talk to who got Y -- that's persuasive evidence that Y is defective and isn't worth keeping anymore.

Comments

[Dogribb]

Sunny ! You have been psychologically liberated ! Revel in it !

[tucson]

The type of thinking that Blogger Brian and Sunny Jay have expressed in this post is entirely lacking in the RSSB faithful and in all major religions. If it existed, the halls of Dera, mosques and churches would be empty. Spiritual Path Consumer Reports would have very few, if any, positive reviews.

It is important that people considering such paths think like a Consumer Reports reader and do their homework. But many don't out of desperation for a solution to their mortality. They don't want to take the hard look. Their dream of immortality would be shattered.

Sorry folks. 'YOU' will die (disappear), but the Life Force, if you will, in which you appear and disappear carries on. We are all in that. It is enough.

[jon weiss]

You forgot probably the most common reason give for lack of experience in meditation --- to add to your list of reasons:

"Your karma is/was too heavy."

This, I feel, is a Jain influence in Sant Mat. In Jain faith karma is seen as a kind of matter (dark) that sticks to the soul covering it in darkness, maybe like metal filings would stick to a magnet. Jain's teach that only by great effort/austerities and taking care not to incur new karmas do these karmic particles dissolve and is the soul liberated from bondage in material world(s). (Apparently Siddhartha/Buddha strongly disagreed with the contemporary Jain teacher Mahavera on this (?))

Another? The mind is still too active (unfocused).

[Dogribb]

Not only will "You" die "You" may not even exist.

When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn’t, that isn’t.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
‑ (Anguttara Nikaya X.92; Vera Sutta)

This applies to persons, as well as to all objects, both gross and subtle. Everything that exists is empty, even emptiness. Persons and objects exist, but in a conventional, pragmatic way. They exist based on causes and conditions, pieces and parts, and conventional conceptual designation.

And just what are things empty of? They are empty of true nature, inherent existence, independent being. This means that nothing exists apart from causes and conditions, apart from pieces and parts, or apart from naming and conceptual designation. There is no thing that exists by itself, under its own power, by its own steam. The “I” does not exist on its own, but constructed out of other things (which don’t exist on their own either).

I cut and pasted this from

http://nondualityamerica.wordpress.com/emptiness-teachings/

[Sunny Jay]

Thank you Brian for posting my thoughts and for the typo's. It was late and hence I apologies for any grammatical errors on my part. I have read your response and one from a satsangi I presume. I stumbled on th epath at the age of 14 and devoted myself to it with fevour; waiting for the day I would turn 24 and request initiation. I hear many reasons as to why I may not have seen the radiant form of the Master. These believers can question me all I want but I know one thing....I loved Baba Gurinder Singh for a time. Infact, I guess I was the perfect specimen to take part in what I now call; The Radha Soami experiment...I was desperate for a father figure, desperate for justic and answers but more importantly...I was on a quest for peace. I have the entire book catalogue from RSSB; I've done my fair share of seva. I've even played football with the Master. Perhaps it was that slidetackle I did that put me in bad favour with Him. Baba Ji told me that LOVE could wipe out all karma like a flame. He spoke of the power of love. I can honestly say; it was a love I was feeling sincerely from the botton of my heart. I put my love for Baba Ji above everything; my girlfriend at the time (who was a nymphomaniac and thus didn't appreciate my discipline. She also ate meat and she was a spitting image of Shakira...oh the regret of retrospect)...anyway....for satsangi's to question my love, my feelings is a joke....It was love on my part but it was unrequited love. Many things happened. I had much disputes with "the boys" at Haynes because I dared to ask questions I am not supposed to ask. All religions like to keep a secret side very much akin to Revelations. Christians have the Illuminati...Muslims have the Christians (hahaha) and the House of Radha Soami have Kirpal Singh. A true seeker should question everything, I feel. So I did; I wasn't afraid. My faith was strong and I was sure what I discovered would only strengthen my belief. I was wrong and I am "humble" enough to admit that. The deeper I got involved; the more unsettled I became with SantMat. Radha Soami stripped me of all my self-esteem and confidence and youth...I was bitter for a long time...but I hold myself responsible because I allowed this happen. I am 29 now and have just started the journey in believing in myself. Having confidence in my own ethics and integrity is like a religious experience. We can debate all we want in life but one thing is certain...we are all going to die someday. The people we love; those memories will be lost...like the Replicants from Blade Runner....my body will decompose...the carbon, nitrogen etc will give nutrient to the soil and who knows....maybe a million years from now; part of, what was me, will be a strand of hair on some animal or human being...that thought in itself is humbling. I digress somewhat but my point is...Satsangi's question the love of ex-innitiates and call that humility. Who are they to question what I felt for Baba Ji and his sangat. They didn't walk my path and I haven't walked theres. I question what they believe in but I don't question their devotion. That is the difference between us.

[Sunny Jay]

TO TUCSON: BEFORE YOU READ MY COMMENT PLEASE TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT I HAVE SAMPLED MOST RELIGIONS I.E. I HAVE BEEN TO MOSQUES, CHURCHES ETC TO REALLY GET TO THE NITYY GRITTY OF WHAT THE "BIG PLAYERS" IN THOSE ORGANISATIONS BELIEVE....I truly believe that that maosques and churches and Dera should be empty. In the mosque; when you get deeply involved, you will hear backbiting about Jews. How the Anti-Xhrist is coming and how the Christians can't be trusted, how there is about to be this big war with plenty of bloodshed. Not much spirituality there. When you really get involved with Churches; you start to hear stories about how Muslims are deluded for not accepting Jesus as The Son of God, ou hear stories about the Illuminati etc...when you go to Haynes Park or Dera or the RSSB centre in Malaga Spain; you hear stories about the Satsangi's are the SPECIAL 10% of souls that did not want to leave Sat Puresh and head into Ka; Niranjan's domain(what is now known as Planet Earth)....all this stuff is a perefct example example of fear tactics; making one feeling like they are "chosen" for something greater then everyone else...Deep down...most satsangi's believe that memebers of other religions will not reach Sach Khand as their respective leaders i.e. Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha were from lower regions in the realm of Kal. Believe me brother; I did my homework...I took on the test....I did the best I could possibly do (I know this in my heart of hearts)...where was this Grace that your Master speaks so highly of? I was beaten by my father and thrown out of my home for trying to go to Satsangs. I spent 3 nights on the streets. Where was this Grace your Master speaks of? I was told I by a key sevadar that I was not good enough to do a certain type of seva because I was not born into a Radha Soami family....inspite of this...I kept my faith...it was something else that woke me out of my slumber. The master makes many promises prior to initiation and then after initiation He tells us to not expect too much. He should be working for Currys digital. You know what would make me feel better? If Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon be kind enough to give me £500,000 in compensation for the psycholigal damage SantMat has caused me and my life and the people I lose because of it. I'm sure Gurinder Singh can afford to spare me £500,000(Baba Ji; I hope you are reading this).

[tucson]

Sunny Jay,

My sympathies. I am sure there are many stories of dissillusionment and disappointment such as yours by former RSSB devotees. I guarantee that Gurinder Singh doesn't care as long as he can keep new seekers taking the bait. I am entirely cynical about the whole movement and have no qualms about admitting that. I too was involved for over 20 years (Charan Singh initiate), but my disassociation was gradual and not traumatic.

Fortunately, you are still young and can live your life with a fresh and hopefully clearer perspective that will bring you peace of mind.

You said: "my girlfriend at the time (who was a nymphomaniac and thus didn't appreciate my discipline. She also ate meat and she was a spitting image of Shakira..."

--I wonder, if you don't mind, if I could have her phone number? ;)

[Sunny Jay]

To Tuscon: Thank you for your kind words. I've read alot about Charan Singh. Seemed like a nice guy and was apparently treated quite harshly at times by sevadars too (can you believe it?)This new Master...he has a rep for being tougher. It's funny...the day I got Naam at Haynes Park, Baba Gurinder Singh was actually in Haynes park and whilst I was getting the instruction. He was, apparently, playing football with the kids. Part of me still wants to believe. Probably because I have invested so much emotionally, physically and financially. Trust me; you don't want to get involved with my ex...imagine Sharon Stone from Basic Instinct. A few moments of pleasure for a lifetime of pain. It must be me...I attract dangerous women and pseudoguru's. Funny thing is; some of my family members in America have recently discovered Rajinder Singh of the other Radha Soami Group. How uncanny I thought....that's another story for another time.
For a long time I felt like an outcast...ashamed that I failed the Masters test. It's refreshing to see that there are other cynics like me so don't sweat. Who knows...maybe Brian is the real master and he has been testing us all along:)

[grasshopper]

If I could get a refund for the time spent in and psychological damage done by my time in evangelical christianity, I'd be walking on sunshine.

[Dogribb]

Sunny...your story is mine and perhaps shared by many others.I have to say being on the path was the best thing that ever happened to me.I derived a direction in mundane life that I otherwise doubt I could have achieved without it.The vector that being a Satsangi placed in me kept me out of troubles I would have ignorantly stumbled into.So I'm grateful for practicle ego it conferred on me.Getting away from RSSB was the next best thing.Psychologists would suggest you reframe what you perceive as a loss and avoid putting yourself in the victim role.Your doubt took you away from something that would have sucked a lesser souls whole life away

[tAo]

Sunny Jay, you think that you are ready for the truth? well i kinda wonder. you said...

Sunny Jay: "I can honestly say; it was a love I was feeling sincerely from the botton of my heart. I put my love for Baba Ji above everything"

-- i doubt that. how could you "love" someone with whom you had little or no personal association? you were in love with an idea, not the man.

Sunny Jay: "my girlfriend at the time (who was a nymphomaniac and thus didn't appreciate my discipline. She also ate meat and she was a spitting image of Shakira."

-- well then, i guess you were not a very smart boy. you let rssb interfere with your sex life. thus it sounds like you were not worthy... where it counts.

Sunny Jay: "I had much disputes with "the boys" at Haynes because I dared to ask questions I am not supposed to ask."

-- so what? why even give a damn about what other bozos think or say?

Sunny Jay: "religions like to keep a secret side very much akin to Revelations."

-- what makes you think Revelations is about secrets?

Sunny Jay: "Christians have the Illuminati."

-- you are quite mistaken. fyi, the illuminati are deep into occultism, not christianity. however you have come to that assumption, it is wrong.

Sunny Jay: "the House of Radha Soami have Kirpal Singh."

-- but Kirpal and his branch is no "secret".

Sunny Jay: "Radha Soami stripped me of all my self-esteem and confidence and youth."

-- no, you did that. you allowed that. RS didn't do anything to you. you gave up your confidence.

Sunny Jay: "I hold myself responsible because I allowed this happen."

-- bingo!!! about time you be a man and own up to it.

Sunny Jay: "I am 29 now and have just started the journey in believing in myself."

-- something is guiding you for sure, but its not you. if you think that its your own self, then you will be made to learn your lesson the hard way.

Sunny Jay: "Having confidence in my own ethics and integrity is like a religious experience."

-- those are not yours. they are gifts on loan. don't be arrogant. life is a test.

"one thing is certain...we are all going to die someday."

-- not "someday". you are dying every moment.

Sunny Jay: "Satsangi's question the love of ex-initiates and call that humility. Who are they to question what I felt for Baba Ji and his sangat."

-- who are they? they are reflections of your own doubt. ignore them.

Sunny Jay: "In the mosque; when you get deeply involved, you will hear backbiting about Jews."

-- perhaps there is a good reason for that.

Sunny Jay: "How the Anti-Xhrist is coming and [...] how there is about to be this big war with plenty of bloodshed."

-- the antichrist is not coming. the avatar is coming. descending through all the planes. because the apocalypse (the unveiling) has now already begun.

Sunny Jay: "Not much spirituality there."

-- spirituality is a fantasy, a myth.

Sunny Jay: "you hear stories about the Illuminati etc"

-- what do you know about the illuminati??

Sunny Jay: "when you go to Haynes Park or Dera or the RSSB centre in Malaga Spain; you hear stories..."

-- yes, and thats exactly what they are... stories.

Sunny Jay: "memebers of other religions will not reach Sach Khand as their respective leaders i.e. Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha were from lower regions in the realm of Kal."

-- but why do you think they are wrong?? aren't you being just like them??

Sunny Jay: "Believe me brother; I did my homework."

-- i don't believe anyone. because pretty much everyone is full of shit. and especially if they think that they really know something.

Sunny Jay: "I was beaten by my father and thrown out of my home for trying to go to Satsangs."

-- your father was trying to keep you from being such a fool. so you should thank him for his efforts.

Sunny Jay: "I spent 3 nights on the streets."

-- so big fuckin deal. i spent decades on the streets.

Sunny Jay: "Where was this Grace your Master speaks of?"

-- the "Grace" is all the times you suffered and got your ass kicked... so that eventually you could come to the point of surrendering to the Presence.

Sunny Jay: "I was not good enough to do a certain type of seva because I was not born into a Radha Soami family"

-- they were doing you a favor. you should be glad that they saved you from unnecessary labor.

Sunny Jay: "You know what would make me feel better? If Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon be kind enough to give me £500,000 in compensation for the psycholigal damage SantMat has caused me and my life and the people I lose because of it."

-- you should be glad for that. it taught you a valuable lesson. nobody owes you anything in this life. you have to make it the way you want it.

[Mike Williams]

To Sunny Jay,
You know your story is quite interesting
for several reasons.

People such as yourself are learning
within a matter of years, what it took
many of us decades to figure out.

Even in 1970 Kirpal and Charan would tell
people to go read all they could about
RS before becomming initiated.

The problem was everything available
was written by their groups.

The same thing with many Indian cults.

No feedback from disenters was available.

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

It was unquestionable to us at that time yoga
and esoterics were "good".

It never even entered our minds we
were joining an evil cult.

Our intentions were pure.

We in the West cannot fathom that any human
being could be so horrible as to tell the lies
the Gurus tell.

It is difficult for us to fathom sociopanthic
behaviour. Where a person lies to your face
without the slightest remorse.

Ruins families and converts money.

Since I have spoken out, I have received death
threats from an RS group based in Chicago
and in fact my wife could have been killed
in the actual attempt, when they mistakenly
thought her car was mine.

I have informed a doctor whom runs a Yahoo
club he has a pontential killer on his club.

This person posts to this day and was a registered rep.

I would highly suggest anyone saying anything
negative about RS Chicago stay on Church of the Churchless.

Never give anyone your real name. These people
come on as exsatsangis saying they have nothing
to do with RS Gurus, when in fact they are often
registered reps. If you
use email be sure they can't find your name
or address by certain methods.

RS is not the only group. For example, the ex kid
Guru Maharaji, whom teaches surat shabda yoga and whos
father was initiated by Sawan singh has terrible
problems.

The exsatsangis are suing Maharaji for his reps
posting the names of the peoples famalies and where
they work and phone numbers.

For awhile, a Maharaji mole actually took possesion
of the Anti Maharaji club, but now it is back
in safe hands.

The exsatsangis were horribly threatened.

These cult people are incredibly cunning.

I have been attacked in all sorts of ways. Even one
Beas mole freely admitting he attacked
my Ebay account. They can get your
address from Ebay easily and ruin your status.

So, we look at the recent killings in Tucson Arizona
and think it could never happen to us.

It is already is. I am unaware on any death attempts
by the Beas group, so maybe your people are lucky.

The Beas method of approach in the past, was to have
the response written in the Beas computer room
and relayed for posting. I am new to this club
so don't know if it happens here.

But, if you speak about the Chicago group, you need
to take extreme safety measures.

I am telling you this Chicago RS group is the most
dangerous cult on the earth today for a reason.

You Beas people have no idea how lucky you were
you never got involved with the Chicago group.

Basically, I believe Beas sees the handwritting on
the wall this club cannot be stopped. It would be
legally very dangerous for them to try as the Guru
could become implicated.

It is my belief that the Chicago Guru and the Main Guru
could easily be picked up by the FBI for tax evasion.

I believe they know this and therefore may become afraid
to attack exsatsangis in the future.

Remember, the FBI picked up Rajneesh trying to escape
the country on a jet. He had Rolex watches down his arms.
He left his many Rolls Royces in Oregon.

I am astonished these Gurus could either live in the USA,
or even visit it.

Tax evasion got Al Capone.

It is only with arrogant impunity and bad legal advice
they venture into, or live in the USA.

What they are doing is so blatant it is only a matter
of time.

I am an accountant by the way (grin).

Luckily my experieneces have not made me paranoid.

[Robert Searle]

The following comes from the official RSSB website in connection with Guirinder...!!

Baba Gurinder Singh was born in 1954. His family is from a traditional agricultural community of Punjab, India. He was named by his predecessor as spiritual head of RSSB in 1990. Based in Spain before accepting this position,

AND !.....he is now retired and lives off his own income. In keeping with the policy for all volunteers, he does not receive any money or honorarium from the Society. As with his predecessors, he has dedicated his life to serving the Society and guiding its members on the spiritual path.

[Nietzsche]

Though I do not agree in everything with tAo he is certainly spreading some little gems :)

As for fathers, they have the force to protect you and sometimes that same force hurts you. It is the way it is. Better seek their protection than search for the satguru.

[Sunny Jay]

To tAo: Thank you for your feedback. It's given me alot to think about. I was venting somewhat but I don't want to play the victim. I am responsible for where I am in life and who I am. Please explain some things, since you seem to know more then me, If I am wholly responsible for the shit I got myself into...am I not fully responsible for the good I reap into my life? My ethics and integrity is an amalgamation of my experiences in life.
question 2: why is slandering against Jew's not such a bad thing?
question 3: Who is this avatar that you speak of? And what is guiding me?
I look forward to your response at your convenience....

[Sunny Jay]

To Dogribb: Thanks. You are totally right. It's time to get out of the victim role. I think I just needed to vent as I have had nobody to talk to about this. I don't have the face to pull off the whole victim thing anyway:) I guess it was all part of my evolution. I'm sure nature designed us all to be self-sufficient and responsible. I don't know if there is a God and what the DEFINITIVE meaning of life is....but I'm sure we are not here to be miserable and unhappy. All that energy I spent on "knowing God" has convinced me of how little I really know. Now I have all this free energy and time; I wonder what I can direct it towards....Thanks again.

[Roger]

tucson,

Did you get her phone number? As a friend, I would hope you would share. Your friend.. Roger

[Nietzsche]

Sunny you said something about kundalini and RSSB

I found this interesting
It is absolutely clear that the two major groups of RS now in existence have masters with little to no kundalini ability. They may have absolutely no power at all, not spiritual, nor kundalini. The fact may be, they couldn’t sock their way out of a wet paper bag. They simply were not properly trained to be able to admit their yoga is kundalini, because then people would ask the tough questions

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/page3.html

[tAo]

Sunny Jay, you said: "I was venting somewhat but I don't want to play the victim."
-- alright then, very good for you.

"I am responsible for where I am in life and who I am."
-- you mean, who you 'think' you are. we only think that we are something or other. we have been influenced and programmed ever since we were infants. almost all of what people believe about themselves and others is due to that. like an onion, we are nothing more than layers. there is a force that moves and animates us, but that does not belong to us. we are expressions of it. we only think that we are in control, but in reality, we are not in control. we are nothing more than musical notes being played in a great symphony. the wise thing to do is to allow ourselves to be played, like a string or a hollow flute. there are no (human) saviors. those who claim to be, are liars and frauds.

"Please explain some things [...] If I am wholly responsible for the shit I got myself into...am I not fully responsible for the good I reap into my life?"
-- the shit you got yourself into is probably because you wanted to believe that something or someone in the world was your master, your savior, was going to give meaning to your life and help you spiritually. however, the "shit" - the errors you make in your life - are also your lessons. the good in your life is not caused by you. it is just the things that you didn't screw up. as long as you think that you are the author, you will be forced to continue learning the lesson that you are actually not the author. so allow yourself to be guided by the one, the force who is in control. then things will be much easier, and you will suffer less folly and errors.

"My ethics and integrity is an amalgamation of my experiences in life."
-- ethics and integrity comes from being in harmony with the force and principle of truth.

"why is slandering against Jew's not such a bad thing?"
-- that is really something that you will have to find out for yourself. i did not say either way. all i will say is how do you know it slandering? and what exactly are you referring to? and what all do you know about jews? i doubt that you are very well informed on the issue, and that is something that you will have to research on your own. hint: don't believe everything you are told by those whose evil interests are furthered by presenting themselves as victims.

"Who is this avatar that you speak of?"
-- the force of love and truth and light.

"And what is guiding me?"
-- i don't know what it is that is guiding you personally. that's for you to determine. but it is possible for you to be guided by that which has the power and wisdom to guide everyone, and by that which is in control of everything.

[Nietzsche]

tAo what you say looks very much like what the real Nietzsche said. He said the mind is deluded in thinking it is an autonomous agent. The mind throws up barriers of fear against the realization that it is not. So was the mind intended to function during evolution. The real force controlling us has no human face our human / godlike characteristics. The search for truth is the deluded way for the mind to hold on to his own lies to maintain it's own illusion of power. In this case with truth I mean the scientific logical truth. The higher truth that is driving us has nothing to do with rationality according to the real Nietzsche. But he was beyond good and evil :)

[Nietzsche]

On second thought he would have said nature is cruel and irrational. And our systems like karma believe are wishful thinking. He believed that we maintain a lot of defense mechanisms to deny our own nature. In fact he thought most moral laws an higher truths where these defense mechanisms. If he was right than most of our lifes are a complete lye.
I'm not sure about that but I'm sometimes afraid that his sharp mind saw through a lot of crap. On the other hand it makes life much simpler. I might become a metaphysical atheist one day :)

[Sunny Jay]

To tAo. Thank you for taking the time to respond to me. Don't take this the wrong way but your messages don't feel like you are advocating truth, love and light. Your tone is quite disrespectful. I did not want your sympathy but empathy is quite different. It is based on understanding. I am inclined to believe that you know more then me but my questions were sincere and your answers seem very vague and akin to the psuedoramblings I would hear at RSSB. There is much I agree with in your comments so please don't be too hurt as I feel like I hit a nerve with you. I wish you would be more clear. You indirectly promt that you have the answers and yet you are hiding the "treasure" all to yourself. e.g.how do I know when this force is guiding me? I think you are trying to tell me, in your way, that you and I are part of "THE ONE" and that by resisting IT'S pull we humans cause ourselves suffering. I'm glad you bought all this up because last year I started something called Qi Kong which is something to do with Chi. Have you heard of this? AND in your opinion, is this part of the force you speak of?
Also, you are right...my love for Gurinder Singh was the personification of a love I have always had for God (the unknown). When I was led to believe that this God(i.e. The light) had a face...I felt like I had found my answer. It's really odd having feelings for this Energy, this power called God that I can't quantify and prove. I feel this Energy when I perform my Qi Kong but it may just be the blood rushing through my veins and that exhilirating feeling of physical and mental power I get in the practice. I can't prove the existence of God (I question His existence alot these days) and you can't prove it either (as self-assured as you may be)...so I ask you this....have you ever had any spiritual or inner experience? A simple yes will suffice this time buddy

[Sunny Jay]

To Roger: I made up for all the sexual exploits I missed out on in my RSSB days. My Shakira is still very much devoted to me...sorry:)

[Sunny Jay]

To Mike Williams. Thank you for taking the time out to read my post and giving such a lengthy reply. All the guys on this site; whether I agree with them or not; clearly are passionate about Church of Churchless. Your post alarmed me. I had no idea that the Chicago group is soiled in corruption. I'm kind of worried about my American family memebers because nearly every single one of them is now an Initiate. I mean my cousin who is only 12 got Naam! When I was in Chicago, I saw some weird stuff. Baba Rajinder Singh's daughter got married and most of my American based family went. That was not the weird part. What was weird was the fact that; every person who attended that wedding was given a breakfast cereal box of spiritual goodness. Guess who was on the front of the box? Yu guessed it...Master Rajinder Singh. I swear this is true. Keloggs better watch out! Such a contrats to Baba Gurinder Singh...RSSB Master has only ever had one picture taken of me as far as i know. Rajinder Singh likes to work the crowd from the movie clips I've seen.
I'm really sorry to hear of your story. I'm glad you got out too. I know there are a bunch of satsangi's waiting for people like you and me to fall flat on our faces and fail so that they can say "Ha. Told you so...don't fuck with Soami soldiers". Don't worry bro...it won't happen. I wouldn't actually mind taking a Chicago RS punk on in a fight. I'm mixed martial arts trained you see....make the bums tap out!
But seriously, I was asked to go satsang in Chicago and my uncle even mentioned me to Rajinder as he thought the two of us should meet. I remember jokingly saying to my uncle "Uncle don't you know that you can't have 2 masters in the same place at the same time?" That didn't go down well....
So far, nothing bad to say against Chicago but it is causing tension between my families in the States...one part of my family have no interest in RS whatsoever...they just want to make money and progress....the RS family side keep giving their money away to Rajinder. There is alot of tension in that house right now.
I still can't get over the fact your life was in danger. I am going to have to read your post again...seriously; it's shocking. It's actually made me quite angry that your wife was put in danger....bro if someone tries a stunt like that again....let me know...find out who it is and i will make some calls to my boys....you can have whatever is left over...peace to you
p.s. this doctor you speak of...he doesn't happen to be from Birmingham UK and in charge of the Birmingham UK sangat?

[Sunny Jay]

To Nietzsche: I just read your post. Thank you for clarifying what you think tAo meant. That makes so much sense to me. You put it eloquently and in a non-offensive manner...tAo could learn a thing or two from you. Peace

[a]

Hey Brian,
I come to your blogs after 2-3 months to put me straight on RSSB path(it is helpful to examine from your standpoint ;)), but over the years I have seen comments by same 4-5 people OR some random comments(first and last). Either I thing you are ignored or your its comment policy. I also n't sure whether this comment will go through.

And you speaking of guarrante, transperancy etc.
I suggest you should have something like TED(ted.com), where you have ratings (like/dislike) and you can have something like show/not show by default. So if user want to see a comment he clicks.

Otherwise I am afraid, it is just your and (people like you- tao//) doing Mumbo-Jumbo.

[tAo]

Sunny Jay, you said:

"your messages don't feel like you are advocating truth, love and light. Your tone is quite disrespectful."

-- well apparently you don't get it. you're looking through a glass darkly. i am not here to give you the warm and fuzzy treatment. i simply tried to get you to see yourself and your situation from another angle. if you cannot or you fail to do that, thats not my fault.

"I did not want your sympathy but empathy is quite different. It is based on understanding."

-- i am not concerned with your need for empathy or understanding. i simply gave you some things to think about. so take it or leave it.

"I am inclined to believe that you know more then me but my questions were sincere and your answers seem very vague"

-- i don't claim to know anything. and my comments were the antithesis of "vague".

"please don't be too hurt as I feel like I hit a nerve with you."

-- well then, its seems you completely misunderstood me. moreover, you and your situation doesn't affect me in the least. i really dont care. i am not like you seem to think. you are obviously not ready to hear what i had to say. you will go through whatver it is that you need to go through anyway. maybe you'll understand what i told you later on down the line.

"You indirectly promt that you have the answers"

-- i don't "promt" or claim that at all. i did not imply having any anwsers. i merely gave you my opinion. you are apparently un able to see that. i am not how you think i am. you don;lt get what i was saying. so lets just drop any further discussion.

"and yet you are hiding the "treasure" all to yourself."

-- huh?? "hiding" what "treasure"?? i am not hiding anything. i was quite frank and to the point. i think you are slightly confused.

"how do I know when this force is guiding me?"

-- ask, and ye shall receive. knock, and it shall be opened unto you. its a matter of your ability to be receptive, to listen, to stop trying to figure it out. guidance is always there, you just have to shut up enough to hear and receive it.

"I think you are trying to tell me, in your way, that you and I are part of "THE ONE" and that by resisting IT'S pull we humans cause ourselves suffering."

-- no, that is not what i was/am saying. perhaps this will help you to understand better:

http://www.practicegodspresence.com/brotherlawrence/practicegodspresence09.html

"I'm glad you bought all this up because last year I started something called Qi Kong which is something to do with Chi. Have you heard of this? AND in your opinion, is this part of the force you speak of?"

-- no, that is also not what i meant. you have to let go of all of that sort of thing, those kinds of strategies. in any moment, just surrender to the Presence. commune with the Presence. be guided by the Presence. leave (drop) all these spiritual paths, methods, gurus, etc. they will only cloud and obstruct communion with the living Presence. none of that can help you. you arte wasting your time with all that. all that kind of thing is an impediment. what you need is always here and now. just turn to the Presence. receive the Presence. you will be guided forward. forget religion. forget spirituality. forget spiritual teachers. let go of all of it. simply enter into direct communion with the Presence. everything else will only lead you astray.

"you are right...my love for Gurinder Singh was the personification of a love I have always had for God (the unknown)."

-- so therefore, all you need is to go directly to the Presence. in any moment, no matter what you are doing, you can be guided by the Presence. you don't any need any masters or middle-men like G.S. you donlt need anyone or anything. you can turn and commune directly with the Presence. then the Presence will guide you. you just have to ask and receive and listen.

"can't prove the existence of God"

-- you don't need to prove anything. you will never have all the answers. but much can be revealed to you, if you simply ask and receive.

"and you can't prove it either (as self-assured as you may be)"

-- again, i never claimed to know anything. so you have misunderstood me. i don't claim to know anything. i was just trying to point you in a better direction. you will have to walk your own path.

"I ask you this....have you ever had any spiritual or inner experience? A simple yes will suffice this time"

-- well i will answer in my own way, thank you.... yes, i have had many and profound "inner experience[s]". but it had nothing to do with RS. you asked for a simple answer, and you got it. so don't bother asking me for more. if you had asked me without putting limitations on my ansewr, i might have told you more. but you really don't need to know anyting about me. all you need is to commune with the divine Presence and whatever you need to know will be given and revealed to you. try to remember this. and good luck.

[tAo]

To: Sunny Jay & Nietzsche,

NO, what Nietzsche said about my previous comment is not at all what i meant.

my comment had nothing to do with the ideas of the famous philosopher Nietzsche, or with the blog commenter Nietzsche's interpretation and version of what i am talking about.

and also NO, i don't have any "thing or two to learn" from Nietzsche. Nietzsche doesn't speak for me. and i don't need any interpreters. so please refrain from misrepresenting or distorting my words. if you wish to know what i mean, then ask me directly.

[Seeker2011]

Just a few years ago at Dera three western ladies had the courage to make the same point as Sunny Jay directly to Babaji. After some 70-80 years between them of dedicated practice/seva, nothing! And the answer they got? Pretty much summed up in the platitudes listed above.

In fact, like most initiates they’d probably come to expect little more in terms of an answer. Why? Well, just concentrate on the content of all those Q & A sessions. It soon becomes evident that as much as satsangis are told to only ask so-called ‘spiritual’ questions, that all replies inevitably lack any real spiritual depth. Oh, you might get the ‘look’ – then care to read mountains, whatever you want, into this – but just listen to the content. Is it any wonder that note taking &/or recording has always been prohibited by the current guru? After all, aren’t we all (guru & disciple alike) ‘looking for a lover who won’t blow my cover …’ (Eagles)

So, could it be suggested that what now reigns supreme in RSSB amounts to little more than a conspiracy in/of silence in which you can ‘read’ whatever you want/need into whatever is/isn’t said. And, just to be clear, we’re not talking here about that Silence of Dakshinamurthi. This is a silence in which both guru & initiates now routinely engage &/or conspire in order that the status quo – rather than the Truth – is maintained.

Is there any chance of breaking this silence? Of the current guru doing a ‘Fakir Chand’ perhaps? Now that would take a whole load of humility, a whole load of genuine courage on the part of the incumbent guru. An incumbent guru who, in openly referring to ‘his’ Sangat, to ‘his’ attachment to ‘his’ sangat, in appearance at least could be said to have the most to lose! So the answer to this question, probably NOT.

Radha Soami

[George]

"forget religion. forget spirituality. forget spiritual teachers. let go of all of it. simply enter into direct communion with the Presence."

-- so pray tell what is the Prescence.

more mumbo jumbo spirituality, one man's RS is another HK, one man's shabd is another mans Presence - so what is what in the state of denmark?

[jon weiss]

Seeker 2011 --- interesting views

I think if guru ji, sitting at the top of a power pyramid is deemed God in Human Form, well that hardly encourages people to ask very frank questions. And even IF some disciple's manage to get up to the microphone and ask a challenging and HONEST question? Guru ji is unlikely to answer honestly. Just as he is unlikely to vacate the top of the pyramid, get a shave and haircut and go whale riding in New Zealand.

[Locus]

-- so pray tell what is the Prescence?, George asks.

**No mumbo jumbo here. Presence is just this right now when you aren't thinking about it. Full stop.

[tAo]

The Practice Of The Presence

http://tinyurl.com/klnayn

[Dogribb]

Seeker2011 said "Oh, you might get the ‘look’ – then care to read mountains, whatever you want, into this"

WOW you said it ! ..that in a nutshell is the all and only (as far as magic) the path has ever offered.It's what substitutes for what RSSB refer to as inner progress.

[Sunny Jay]

I have actually got up at Haynes Park (I must admit I was nervous and shy)and asked Baba Ji categorically...Well, this what I said "Baba Ji, you are asking me to give up meat, to live a strict moral life and devote myself wholeheartedly to meditation. In my current situation, without proof, it is alot to ask. I have read the books, I can quote them verbatim but can you guarantee me that if I make these sacrifices; I will go within? Can I not have some preview? Like they show a trailer to a movie? That would remove all doubt"

A Scooby snack to anyone who can guess what Baba Ji answered me....

[Blogger Brian]

I'll go with this Baba Ji answer:

"Brother, we have to be humble beggars before the Lord. It is up to Him to decide what to give us, and when to give it. Just do your meditation and leave the rest to Him."

[Sunny Jay]

To Blogger Brian..I was expecting that answer too but I got something else quite different....any more guesses anyone?

[Trey]

He said, "No".

[Sunny Jay]

He said to me "Son, it is like an experiment in a laboratory. You have to get the right amount of substances and the right apparatus for the experiment to show conclusive results. If you do the experiment correctly; you will be guarantee's success"..He then added "I cannot show you a preview. This is not some cinema show; this is real life. What do you expect to see...disco lights?". At this everybody started laughing with Baba Ji; presumably at me.
Afterwards; my so called RS friends made me feel like crap for a asking such a dumb question to Baba Ji. They said that asking questions show a lack of faith and spiritual development (these are guys that drink alcohol on the sly and masturbate because they can't have sex...definately satsangi material)...I rebuked "If it is silly to ask such questions then why does Baba Ji still hold a question and answer session?"...Interestingly; I was the first of my friends to receive Naam. To my knowledge; my "other" friends have stil to request it. When I quiz them; they say that they are not worthy. I have so many stories about the stupid stuff that happens in that cult. Part of me still wishes that I am proven wrong and perhaps this is why I have vented on this website after so many years of keeping my frustration about RS on the down low. Let's face it...there is more chance of me winning the lottery then having the darshan of the radiant form tonight!

[tAo]

Sunny Jay, you are really wasting your time. it'd be much better for you to just let go and move on, and do something constructive or enjoyable with your life, instead of continuing to allow yourself to be suckered and ridiculed by phony corrupt gurus and hypocrital asswipes.

[Trey]

Like I said,

The guru said "no", veiled in bullshit knowing he could turn the spotlight from him to the questioner. Make the questioner the fool and the object of the brainwashed sheep's disdain. He's got them by the cajones.

The reaction of the crowd should have been, "Yeah, that Sunny Jay has a good point. Why can't you give us a taste? Even a little teensy one? Huh, Mr. Guru Man? Huh?

[Dogribb]

Sounds like you need to be angry for awhile Sunny.Who can blame you.I felt more ashamed at being so needy a person that I took what was offered because I didn't have ego enough to be my own self.

[A. Winners]

I have been a disciple of RSSB since 1983. I can say without hesitation that this path is one of experiential spirituality, not mere mental philosophy . . . and it does deliver the goods, without question. One must remember that inner experiences are not to be shared with others because of the infusion of the ego in the equation. The RSSB Master does give inner experiences and proof of the Path at the appropriate time.

I have been a teacher spanning six decades. People advance at different speeds. To expect results immediately in any art or science is to reflect the impatience of this current culture. When one abandons a path after only 4 years of practice, one can only marvel at the lack and depth of commitment. For such a person to make denigrating and negative comments about RSSB because results were not achieved in 48 months speaks of a soul in a hurry, to get to the next pleasure, the next sensation, the next experience. All of this is totally unrealistic and - I say this lovingly - immature.

How can a person rise to the level of being a concert pianist, for example, after practicing for only four little years? How can any artist in any discipline achieve a degree of competence without spending decades, even a lifetime, studying, practicing and honing their skills? And these are all worldly attainments. Spiritual Realization is nothing to be taken lightly. Devotion is not an amusement. We don't come to the Path expecting results of a fireworks display. We come to the Path to learn to love, to be pure, to be devoted to God, to love Him, to give to Him our gratitude for all He has done for us. To be a disciple of a Living Saint is a privilege beyond understanding. To come to the Path and expect to be given gifts of Inner Knowing and Experience within a few short years is akin to a child expecting presents from Santa Clause when he is 3 or 4 years old. It is sad and unfortunate that some people carry with them a sense of entitlement without doing the work. Yet, such is the curse of this age. It is filled with takers, not givers; with people in a hurry to become something that cannot be hurried. The problem with those individuals who have become disillusioned with the Path lies within themselves, not with the Path. The results, the inner experiences, the mystic insights ARE THERE, but they do not come lightly, just as the accomplishment of a world-class concert pianist does not come lightly, nor quickly, nor without love and passion for the playing.

Inner experiences aside, what of the great value the RSSB Path offers in the way of protection by following vows that keep one from harm and planting seeds that would surely yield poisonous fruit? RSSB disciples are asked to refrain from killing and eating the flesh of other creatures to insure they (the disciples) do not incur negative karma. Where is the negativity in this? They are also asked to refrain from ingesting alcohol and drugs, poisons that possess a legacy of death and destruction beyond measure. Where is the negativity in this? Disciples are also asked to refrain from degrading the purity of the Body Temple by not engaging in sexual relations except with one's life partner. Where is the negativity in this? And most of all, followers of the RSSB Path are asked to give time every day to God in gratitude for the priceless and precious life He has so graciously bestowed on us. Where, oh where, is the negativity in this? These fundamental vows are a boon to any individual to insure he or she remains safe from the perils of the world. These alone are enough for which to be deeply . . . and humbly . . . grateful.

As we continue to live a life of love and devotion to God - wanting to give to Him, not expecting Christmas presents from him - we will ultimately experience things of which others have no knowledge or understanding, but it takes more than 4 little years of childish impatience. Furthermore, and more importantly, it takes a heart and soul that is deeply and eternally grateful to have the great good fortune to even know of the reality of a Living Saint, let alone be gifted with his Initiation. If we are true seekers of spirituality, we should be more concerned with our gratitude to God for all He has done for us than with anything else. As Swami Ji Maharaj states very clearly, If, however, you don't believe in either what I say or in the writings of the Saints, the path of Transmigration lies before you. Walk upon it by all means.

[Blogger Brian]

A. Winners, I have considerably more experience with RSSB meditation than you do, having been initiated in 1971. During the 35 or so years I diligently followed the RSSB rules and practices, I can confidently tell you that I ran into very few people who demonstrated that they'd had profound mystical experiences.

Of course, like you said, there is a clever "Catch 22" in the philosophy: anyone who talks about their experiences is told that they will lose them, though when I gave satsang (talks) I liked to point out that the prohibition on disclosing inner experiences didn't mean that we couldn't talk about a lack of such experiences.

Which many people did, over the many years I was involved with RSSB. So while I understand your devotion, you sound like a traditional fundamentalist of any religion: "Just have faith, because this is the true Way."

Words are cheap. But with RSSB, even words are lacking, because extremely few people even claim to have left their body, entered spiritual realms, and experienced ultimate reality. Evidence of this is even more lacking, of course.

In Christianity a message like yours is called "apologetics." Again, I understand why you want to defend your faith, because I felt that way myself for many years. However, if you re-read what you wrote, I hope you'll see why your words are unpersuasive.

[A. Winners]

Brian, years are no measure of attainment, brother. You have obviously been denied further progress at this time for whatever reasons. Your mind, not your vision, is far too involved with your analysis. Best wishes to you.

A.

[tAo]

A. Winners,

I agree with the owner of this blogsite that your assertions and unsubstantiated claims are extremely unpersuasive. simply saying that "it does deliver the goods, without question", is in fact highly questionable. maybe you do not care enough to question, but others do.

I can not, and do not agree with you that "inner experiences are not to be shared with others because of the infusion of the ego". because in almost all cases, there have been no experiences. and RSSB's use fear to manipulate and suppress people's innate freedom of expression and communication, in order to prevent them from comparing notes with others, is wrong no matter how you try to rationalize it.

Furthermore, the RSSB Master absolutely does NOT "give inner experiences". no one, i repeat, no one, can cause that. you are foolish and "immature" to believe and promote such notions.

Yes, people DO, as you say "advance at different speeds". however, no one here (on this blog) is "expect[ing] results immediately". there are many people who gave it more years than you have... myself included. so these people have not had "impatience". but expecting people to spend their entire lives without achieving any significant results, is asking too much. that is plain stupidity and outright foolishness. and moreover, what proof have you to offer? just because you say that you have had some experiences? what does that prove? mere experiences are not the same as results. so why should anyone believe you?

Also, who here has said that they had "abandon[ed] a path after only 4 years of practice"?? perhaps, but there are a number of people here who have each had between 30 and 40 years of practice. so who are you referring to, that quit after 4 years?? one particular individual?? but actually, i think that they were smart and wise to quit after spending four years. four years is more than enough time and commitment to waste on doing a meditation that, for all intent and purposes, leads nowhere.

You say: "Spiritual Realization is nothing to be taken lightly." -- but what do you know about "spiritual realization"?? i see no evidence of "realization" anywhere in your comment.

You say: "We come to the Path to learn to love, to be pure, to be devoted to God, to love Him, to give to Him our gratitude for all He has done for us." -- perhaps that is your motivation, but what says (where is the proof) that the RS path results in any more 'devotion to God', any more "love", or any more "gratitude". frankly, i saw none of that (devotion to God, love, and gratitude) reflected in the behaviors of the hundreds of satsangis i have encountered in the past 35 years. it was quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.

And what says that your guy is a "Living Saint"?? where is the evidence of that?? has he healed the sick and fed the poor and starving?? has he brought any real happiness or peace to others?? no.

Who has "a sense of entitlement without doing the work"?? fyi, I spent decades doing meditation and practicing mysticism. and so have many others.

You say that this age and the world "is filled with takers, not givers". But who are the "givers", and who is the "taker"?? the followers (satsangis) are the ones doing all the giving -- money, seva, meditation, devotion. on the other hand, the RS so-called 'master' does nothing but take. he takes the devotion, the seva, the money. he has amassed a vast fortune of money (millions) due to his position, power, and authority. he is all take, and gives nothing. what does he give?? he merely emerges briefly once in a while, like some king, to let his groveling followers look at him. he gives nothing to his disciples. nothing but hollow empty rhetoric and stale old dogma. you are a fool to waste your life on such pretentious frauds as he.

You say: "The problem with those individuals who have become disillusioned with the Path lies within themselves, not with the Path." -- same old shit as always. blame the victim, not the perpetrator. show me one single person who has achieved God-realization from all their believing and practicing of the RS path. you cannot produce even one individual.

You say: "The results, the inner experiences, the mystic insights ARE THERE" -- then where are they?? do you think that you can simply say that, and that makes it true? where is the evidence?

You say: "the great value the RSSB Path offers in the way of protection by following vows that keep one from harm and planting seeds that would surely yield poisonous fruit?" -- rubbish. one does not need to follow the RS guru and practice RS in order to be a vegetarian, be moral, abstain from drugs, or to meditate. RS offers nothing that people cannot do on their own.

You say: "These fundamental vows are a boon to any individual to insure he or she remains safe from the perils of the world." -- rubbish. the vows do not protect anyone from anything. they are simply vows.

You say: "to have the great good fortune to even know of the reality of a Living Saint, let alone be gifted with his Initiation." -- that is a myth. there are no saints, and true initiation is nothing like the RS mumbo-jumbo.

Judge not, lest ye be judged. meaning, the path of Transmigration lies before YOU. and as a matter of fact, YOU are walking upon it. you have shown that by your own words.

[tAo]

Mere parroting of dogma and rhetoric is no measure of attainment either. talk is cheap.

And where is this supposed "attainment" that you speak of? it nothing more than empty claims.

[Nietzsche]

And why allways this confusion about mind and brains? There is nothing wrong with using your brains if you can stop thinking during meditation. It is like stopping to run to meditate but walking is not wrong or running! If you stop walking just to sit more still in meditation than your body will weaken and you will not be able to sit at all. If you don't train your brain you will not be able to concentrate in meditation at all but thinking gives you discipline to focus.
And the other confusion is that between mind and thrives, instincts. These primal sexual etc forces have nothing to do with thinking either. They seem to come from our very biological being. Animals have them and they don't study philosophy. So you can't blame the brain for sex and anger either, you should thank the brain for thinking of reasons to forgive and feel compassion allthough it is more accurate to say that the brain is simple not involved in anger and sex.
Therefore train your brain or become a mindless monkey.
The confusion about mind and brain is in fact deception of the guru so I suspect. To keep you a stupid slave easy to manipulate with lack of critical training.

[Dogribb]

RSSB rhetoric is peppered with the notion of doing something and having something.We have been told we must merge our limited separate self back into the ocean of the Greater One Self.The Master is the supposed living catalyst of this migration.They suggests no actual difference exists between the drop of water and the ocean.God and the soul,Atman and Bhraman.Its all water,and by his grace it will take 4 life times to complete the journey.What journey? At what point do you become different than who you are...water? Or when does the drop say its the ocean or the ocean the drop?At the end of this supposed proccess, What of you is left to claim success ? What did you actually do and get? I know the objection for RSSB is to suggest to much mind whenever this type of inquiry is presented.They lack the means of knowledge to see that their objection is Faith based. Derived from the very movement of mind they deny.I can only conclude this is only evidence of them maintaining the continuity of the very ego they wish to surrender in some future vista seated on the lap of their Master...good luck with that

[Nietzsche]

Btw often the fool is mentioned in satsang as the one that is using his brains. The satsangis are above that foolish thinking. They know that by not thinking they are the smartest people alive. They can not be tricket by their thought. They simple believe in a system that clearly does not work with a guru that swims in his devotees money. A guru that to any fool is a fraud. They think that it is the experience that is keeping the others involved while in fact it is the lack of it that keeps them begging. If Gurinder was any real he would admit that it was a test and that the fools have pased.

[Nietzsche]

One day guru gekko came to a little Eskimo village. He said: he guys there is a person on the lose that is trying to trick you with your mind. There is only one solution and I present it here. Stop thinking and follow me! I have a few vows somewhere he added while looking in his books :)

[Nietzsche]

So the villagers all sat together and looked at gekko. Tell us more! Gekko had a frown, well the vows will become later he said. First you have to stop thinking! When do we have to stop someone asked, right now? No, no gekko said, after I have finished of course. How will we know...bla bla bla Anyway I will give you a sign gekko said after that, no more thinking. Okay the crowd grumbled. But how do we know that person is real someone said? Don't ask so dangerous questions gekko replied, he might be listening, he might be you, your neighbour, nobody knows for sure. It is very dangerous to talk about him, you just have to stop thinking. Okay, after the sign right? Right. But someone asked. How do we know it is not you? Yeaah the others added. How do we know you are not the person that is very dangerously trickening our mind? Because gekko replied, I ask you to stop thinking you fools! That made sense to some of them. But I never think someone added but nobody listened anymore they were tired of the thinking. Ah I have found the vows gekko continued.

[Nietzsche]

Well to make a long story short. Not much happened in Eskimo village. They all fell a sleep and in the morning admitted that they didn't think much anyhow so there was no great threat. Except for one Eskimo that considered himself a great philosopher. He changed his robe in to an indian sheet and stopped eating fish.

[jon weiss]

DOGRIB wrote above:

"At the end of this supposed proccess, What of you is left to claim success ?"

There it is. Well done Dogrib.

[jon weiss]

TAo asked of poster "A Winners":

"And what says that your guy is a "Living Saint"?? where is the evidence of that?? has he healed the sick and fed the poor and starving?? has he brought any real happiness or peace to others??"

There is a HUGE difference between Western expectations of their salvation hero and Eastern devotion to a guru. RSSB has a real odd mixture of both of these.

Nobody can outdo nor undo the powerful Christ myth when it comes to ultimate sacrifice for humanity. Feeding the poor, healing the sick are two examples of our Western Christian ideals (downwind or not)and expectations for our salvation heros. Myth is MUCH more powerful in these matters than fact. The historical Jesus is nothin' compared to the ongoing myth. So that begs the question what myths have evolved around the RSSB gurus that trump reality and why do people need religious hero myths?

[tAo]

perhaps you took me a bit too literally. the point is, "saint" is just an idea... be it eastern or western. "saint" is just term that is used in all sorts of ways. RS uses it to mean a shabd guru or a 'perfect master'. religious folks, like christians etc, use it to mean someone who has performed miracles, or healing, or who has made great efforts to relieve human suffering. and some indians refer to yogis and ascetics as "saints".

why do people need religious hero myths? i guess thats because they're stupid. but i think that era is going to pass away.

[Tony]

A. Winners,

I think that being an expert meditator and an expert pianist (or any other expert ) are quite different.

A piano teacher can prove to the student that he or she is an expert by sitting at the piano and playing it expertly.

There is nothing to believe - the student sees the piano, hears the music, knows it all exists.

It's not the same for meditation.

A guru does not prove to a disciple that the guru has attained mastery in the meditation.

A guru does not sit the disciple down, take
the disciple to the 'inner worlds' and back again and say 'See, I have mastered meditation. If you practise with me, in time you will be able to meditate like this'.

Yes, it can take a lifetime to be an expert pianist. But a beginner student can play a few notes and even simple songs within the first few lessons, and then visibly, noticeably improve with practise.

In the meditation we are discussing, people can practise a lifetime and not hear a single note.

Asking a student to spend 2-3 hours a day trying to enter inner worlds which are not proven to exist, is a very very big ask.

[Nietzsche]

The fact that Gurinder according to a Satsangi that folowed him a lot for 20 or more years said once that he could hear the sound when he was asked for his own experiences. Doesn't this prove that hearing the sound is the highest attained by anyone in RSSB. I've heared that Satsangi say he saw some light too.
To be totally honest during initiation I heared a train strange enough. I only thought of it after reading Faqir Chant :)

[jon weiss]

The initiates into RS Faith are not necessarily all anxiously awaiting inner experiences that proves it all. Many do the meditation simply because they were asked to and do not feel disheartened by lack of confirming inner visions. For some, inner experience(s) are deemed a gift of love, not a payment for effort.

A lot is made of the confirming inner
meditation experiences HERE but in the RS community at large it is not. The focus was mainly on love and devotion (as I recall), the rest left to God.

Now having said all that? This was what I USE TO feel/think as well as what many other satsangi folks I chatted with over the years also thought/felt. They did not NEED, or feel put off by the lack of inner experiences. The confirmation?, well,love was much more than enough.

I have heard in India it is rare for the initiates to meditate. Rather they cling, tearfully, begging for the Master's grace. AND MOST satsangi's are EAST INDIAN. That culture is saturated with worship and devotion - or "God obsessed India" as one English author put it.

Western Satsangi's are very odd ducks. They are also diminishing...turning grey, vanishing from the congregation. Satsang's these days in the U.S.? It doth look like "Litte India".

[Robert Searle]

Gurinder is not stupid...as the Chinese have a few bob to throw about these days... and quite a few have growing businesses!!! No doubt Religare has Chinese connections in more ways than one!

[Owl]

It is very sad to read many of these comments. As I sit here, an initiate of Charan Singh in 1980, having 'gone off the path' for a number of years from 1990 till about 2007 and come back again - still now I wobble.

Is it all true or not? No-one is forced to give money or time for seva. No-one is forced to do anything. We are encouraged to meditate (and who could this benefit, but ourselves?). But the lack of ability to concentrate, let alone to make progress, is driving me insane. Frustrated and disappointed, yet at times grateful for the raft to cling onto. But still unsure after all these years. How does everyone exist on so little sleep for a start? If I get up early for a few days, I am a mess for the next few and totally unwilling/unable to rise early.

Am I a better person than I once was? Am I more caring about my fellow humans? I just wonder whether we have all been duped for a reason which I cannot divine.......

I'm teetering on the edge of 'give up' versus 'there must be truth in all this, if only I were more able to give simran my full attention'. I am sure many reading this can appreciate where I am coming from. The question is, 'is what we see all there is, or is this just the tip of the iceberg and we can only see above the waterline?'

Then there is the problem I have with Babaji. I felt an enormous pull to Hazur Maharaj Ji, but I feel ABSOLUTELY nothing for Babaji. Other older satsangis explain it thus, 'but Babaji is not YOUR master'. I keep thinking if he truly IS a master I should feel something.......

[Blogger Brian]

Owl, thanks for sharing such honest feelings. Well spoken. Reading what you wrote made me think of what I spend a lot of time pondering lately:

Life is change. We, and it, (is there a difference between "life" and "us"?) keep on flowing in unpredictable ways. This is a theme I'll probably blog about later today.

Like Buddhists say, usually we try to deal with life by clinging to fixed ideas. We try to make permanent what isn't, and can't be. When I read your "problems," I was struck by how they seem to be the result of your expecting that you should keep on feeling as you did before.

Hey, I do the same thing. We all do. We see change, life flowing along, and say to ourselves "Oh, no! Something is wrong!" But does this make sense? Should we expect that how we feel about a religion/spiritual path, or anything else, won't ever change?

[David]

Owl,

Please could you explain whether or not you have had spiritual experiences with meditation? If you have and you feel they are real and genuine experiences and not some type of hypnosis, i would suggest you stop reading skeptical and atheistic literature such as at this webblog, focus on what you really want in life and plunge into your sadhana with the correct attitude.

Also, it could be the case that Charan Singh was fake, in which case you should disown him and do your own spiritual searching. Have you read websites about astral projection? There are loads of people out there who have OBEs and swear to the truth of them who aren't affiliated with sant mat. You really have to question deeply whether this stuff is real or not. Since there is such widespread testimony from all around the world now and in ages past, i think there is something going on here. That is simply my belief and people at this website do not seem to share it. However, ask yourself - can all these spiritual experiences be false? This is for you to decide.

If you hang around with down and outs you become like them. If you hang out with skeptics you become a skeptic. If you hang out with business men you become business minded. If you hang out with spiritual persons you become spiritually minded. And so on. For your own spiritual welfare, assuming you believe there is something more than mundane life, i would suggest you discontinue reading websites like this and other websites, books, and films that concentrate on the emptiness of the fanatical skeptic and atheist POV and focus on your own salvation.

[Blogger Brian]

Owl, I think you should consider David's perspective, as you should mine, and as you should anybody else's. But in matters of spirituality and the meaning of life, the only perspective which counts is your own.

Basically the advice you got in the comment above is to keep on doing what you were told to do. That is, keep clinging to a belief system that has been given to do for the rest of your life.

Well, maybe that will make sense to you. But another option is to flow with life, rather than try to keep it from changing.

[tAo]

David wrote: "i would suggest you stop reading skeptical and atheistic literature such as at this webblog"

I take great offense at David and his derogatory attitude towards other people (whom he calls "skeptic" and "atheist") such as Brian and others at this blog who simply choose to ask reasonable questions and to think for themselves, rather than just blindly following authoritarian dogma.

David wrote: "it could be the case that Charan Singh was fake, in which case you should disown him and do your own spiritual searching."

Well, if Owl felt inspired and pulled, and feels good about and has faith in his master Charan, then why should that be any problem? There is no such need for Owl to "disown" his guru... and Owl's spiritual path is none of David's business. David is nothing more than 'sour grapes' about other people who do not share and support his rigid dogmatic beliefs.

David wrote: "ask yourself - can all these spiritual experiences be false? This is for you to decide."

As Brian pointed out, it doesn't matter what other people's "spiritual experiences" have been. It's all an individual matter. Other people's experiences do not prove anything.

David wrote: "If you hang around with down and outs you become like them. If you hang out with skeptics you become a skeptic."

I am neither "down and out", nor a "skeptic", so I don't appreciate the implication.

David wrote: "For your own spiritual welfare, [...] i would suggest you discontinue reading websites like this [...] that concentrate on the emptiness of the fanatical skeptic and atheist POV"

I very much disagree with that statement.

Neither is the author of this blog, nor are the commenters at this blog, a bunch of 'empty fanatical skeptics'. If David doesn't like this blog, then why is he here? Moreover, apparently he does not respect the rights of others to question, to reason, and to hold their own opinions.

David wrote: "and focus on your own salvation."

David should simply tell himself that.

[Nietzsche]

If you hang out with deluded you become like one. If you hang out with truth seekers you'll become like one :)

[Jon Weiss]

Brian: you offer "But another option is to flow with life, rather than try to keep it from changing."

Are we flowing with life or with our wandering mental predilections, personal handicaps and unconscious motivations? It would be a sign of absolute liberation to really *flow with life* without myself
strapped to a mind, like a load on a donkey. Can I control my next thought? Or does thought just arise and then give chase like a dog chasing its tail? Inside that chase how can one be in flow, be free?

David's response to Owl - I wonder, David, what you mean by "salvation". That is so heavy with Jesus.

Of course Sant Mat is more than a belief system. Sant Mat is also a social thing, hence seva. It takes place in and around a society, a sangat, and is a way of life. Elsewise one would just be handed a book with instructions on how to "do" Surat Shabd Yoga and that'd be it.

OWL -- giving anything ones full attention is near impossible....like herding cats as the saying goes.

[Dogribb]

Owl ..this can be a sad and depressing time.You sound like a seeker regardless I suggest you look after yourself If that means worldy psychological help I suggest you make those inquiries,It was very helpful for me,If you still wish to look at the spiritual side of life I might recommend this site and these words
Truth is a Pathless Land

http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1929-truth-is-a-pathless-land

[suki]

@Dogrrib - you make a good point. Self Inquiry or however you wish to frame it, is not a substitute for medical problems. Whether the problems are physical or emotional problems. Neurochemical imbalance can be treated effectively in most cases with medicine and alternate therapies. And of course in conjunction with Self Inquiry - I don't see any problem.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Sunny Jay,
Sorry I missed your response.

I believe Science of Spirituality is the
the most dangerous cult on the earth today.

And, I may have studied, or belonged to more
groups than anyone whom has lived. Spent
my life searching. Countless gurus, masters,
books, etc.

The insanity started with Kirpal and ends
with Rajinder. Rajinder is the first to
openly show his mad cap lunacy. But, I saw Darshan's and Kirpal's first hand. Off camera.

A bunch of Satanic devils. Evil personified.

Darshan and Kirpal masked it well.

But, they were snakes. Full of venemous
hate. Their arrogance knew no bounds.
No lie was too great.

http://elearn.mtsac.edu/dlane/radhabook.html

[Nietzsche]

Owl wrote:
Then there is the problem I have with Babaji. I felt an enormous pull to Hazur Maharaj Ji, but I feel ABSOLUTELY nothing for Babaji. Other older satsangis explain it thus, 'but Babaji is not YOUR master'. I keep thinking if he truly IS a master I should feel something.......

There is a logical inconsistency here. You felt a pull to Maharaj Ji that was also not your master because you said Charan Singh initiated you. So you felt a pull to a person that was not your master. So the explanation from the other satsangi's for the lack of pull from Babaji is not correct. It is a typical satsangi reaction to stop your thinking because it is bad to think.

[tAo]

Nietzsche ,

there is no "inconsistency".

fyi, "Hazur Maharaj Ji" or "Maharaj Ji" refers to Charan Singh, and that is who Owl said was his master. Charan Singh is known as Hazur Maharaj Ji, so you are incorrect. try to be more careful before jumping to mistaken conclusions that based on on wrong ideas.

furthermore, the response that Owl reported as coming from other satsangis, is quite common and typical. i have heard it many times. each satsangi has his or her own particular master. so Owl is correct, and you are wrong.

[Blogger Brian]

tAo, good point. I had the same reaction, since it seemed pretty clear to me that Owl had been initiated by Charan Singh, and it was Gurinder Singh who didn't generate the same feeling of love/devotion. Thanks for clarifying this. I thought about writing my own comment along this line, but forgot to do it.

[Nietzsche]

If these guys would just use the same name everytime that would make it less confusing. Babaji is Gurinder, maharaj ji is charan singh who is also familly from babaji but nothing in the name shows that or is there something? And then Sawan singh who I confused with Charan Sing or Maharaj ji who was not baba maharaj charan singh ji etc bla bla bla. Ans I have to be more careful, let these guys start using normal names... ;)

[tAo]

Nietzsche,

it seems that you are still slightly confused. also, it has nothing to do with family ties.

shiv dayal is referred to as swamiji
jaimal is referred to as babaji
sawan is referred to as great master.
charan is refered to as huzur or maharaji.
gurinder is now referred to as babaji.

there really is no need for "these guys start using normal names". they are already known by their names.

hope that clears the issue up for you.

[Nietzsche]

tAo maharaj ji I now remember why I always skip your useless repetitions. Thanks for clearing that up!

[Owl]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts, suggestions and wise words.

I am not so sure about what David says about stopping reading websites like this. I think that if doubts arise it is good to thrash them out - which may result in clarifications.

I have no doubts that there exists something greater than this material world. Just because we have poorly sharpened senses doesn't mean there is nothing more than these senses can pick up.

Having seen my father die and my children born I don't believe that this/pind is all there is. However, many sincere people follow mystical paths which are not Sant Mat. Many devoted souls find uplift and succour in other practices. Perhaps all roads lead eventually to 'Rome' but I really wish Sant Mat had more predictability and was more of a scenic route!

In answer to some questions, I heard the bell once but that was before I was initiated. I have had deep peace and 'uplift' on occasions, seen a few colours and sense of being out of the body once in a blue moon. But those are rare and split-second in many, many years of trying. Sometimes it feels as if I am standing waiting earnestly for a lift, pressing the button and pressing and no lift comes - and I wonder why I am STILL standing there - am I dumb?

In sum, one can end up feeling hopeless and helpless much of the time. Is this the way to realising that HE is everything and that 'not a leaf stirs but HE wills it'?????

By the way, Dogribb, I appreciate your concern and suggestions which I take as kind and constructive, though I am not mentally ill and do not need a psychologist or counsellor. Rather, I seek spiritual solace and confirmation.

Best wishes to all of you still trying to find the truth - which is better, though more painful at times than the often lacklustre physical universe..... From a somewhat ambivalent Owl (female)!

[Roger]

OWL,

Where did you go?

You said,

"As I sit here, an initiate of Charan Singh in 1980, having 'gone off the path' for a number of years from 1990 till about 2007 and come back again - still now I wobble."

--How does one go 'off' the path? Is this the vegetarian diet or meditations? What would one have to do, or is doing to engage in wobbling?
--What exactly is the reason for the 'gone off' the path? Did Charan fail you in some way?

[Owl]

Hi Roger,
gone off the path means lost my way, lost some belief. Stayed vegetarian but started drinking alcohol, stopped meditating. Felt the emptiness of life without the spiritual path and yet lost my direction on it. Wobbling means am on the brink of doing the same again. No, I don't belief my dear master failed me, but that I somehow don't experience a strong enough pull to stay with it regardless of the bumps in the road.

But I am still going to satsang and am often inspired (for a few days).

How many humans have that pull strong enough to withstand all that is thrown at us on this material plain and the desert of meditation to keep strictly to the path and cling on to meditation for dear life despite it being dry? The only reason is because materiality is emptier. That's been my experience anyway. Not wishing, however to discourage those whose staying power is better than mine. I admire the lightness of being that many satsangis possess.

[Netemara]

Mike what guru in Chicago r you talking about? I was in Beas rssb out of Chicago for over twenty years. I got an email a few weeks ago inquiry about a splinter group starting under ishwar puri. I told him they were all equally bad cults so it did not matter which one to choose. Since the names are so similar just want to be sure who you are talking about. I did not know the rs group in Chicago you mention just charan Singh. Gurinder Singh is about what age now 48?

Netemara

[Roger]

Thanks Owl,

I think your experience, as you described, is very similiar to other satsang members. I'm guessing the meditation experiences didn't come through? You seem very honest and sincere. Best wishes to you.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Netemara ,
Rajinder, from Darshan, Kirpal
lineage. You didn't belong to
this group.

How is Mark Antony ?

http://elearn.mtsac.edu/dlane/radhabook.html

[Nietzsche]

Owl you mentioned an image of pressing a button but the lift doesn't come. I had an image like that like I was hanging around and the rest was already in the lift waiting for me. Sometimes I still meditate but babaji (thanks tAo) is not a very strong image but I sence something or hope I sence something and that pull has never been more than very faint. Why I meditate because very very sometimes I feel lifted like I've been in a better place. Don't understand the rest or who is behind it. It is better than nothing I guess.

[Anonymous]

I went to "the Dera" as the people that follow RSSB call it, and I went to one of the speeches or whatever they are called, and Gurinder Singh was giving it that day. I am a westerner (married to someone who was born in Dera) and I was absolutely terrified. People were crying and trampling over me when they saw the "master". It was one of the most pathetic and sick things I have ever seen. I actually felt sorry for all those people there. Unfortunately, since my spouse grew up there, I have to be affiliated with this group or religious cult or whatever you want to call it. (spouse's family members are devout followers). To me it is just another religious cult and I think those who get lured into it are not strong enough individuals to think for themselves or are in a bad situation and need something to make themselves feel better about life with. I feel that my spouse is being taken advantage of and I do not know how to approach this touchy subject. My spouse is not COMPLETELY obsessed like I have seen other people, but I think there is somewhat of a belief. I would love to just drop some papers on the table that show its phony but as I have heard from other "satsangis", "there are people who lie because they are not blessed like we are" or some other crap. Any exsatsangis have any suggestions on how to approach my spouse, for their own well being? Thanks.

[Mike Williams]

Dear anonymous,
Have your wife read this. If
you forget the link just punch
in radhasoami in Google and it
is currently number one,

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

Also have your wife come to
this club, or email Brian
personally.

As long as your wife does not
give them money, you
will be okay. Be a little
patient with her. After she
meditates and nothing happens,
she will automatically start
to question the Guru.

[TonyM]

You could start by reading a couple of published works by academics - this will give you an understanding of the groups and your wife may even pick up the books for a read.

Often the first step to being a
critical -thinking satsangi is reading material outside the group's published works.

I recommend:

RADHASOAMI REALITY: The Logic of a Modern Faith
You can get a used copy at www.abebooks.com

Radhasoami Tradition: A CRITICAL HISTORY OF GURU SUCCESSORSHIP (you can print this out from the following website: http://dlane5.tripod.com/rs1.html)

[Mike Williams]

RADHASOAMI REALITY was ghost written
by David Lane. I consider this a Beas
propoganda book, as Dave was a member
of the board at the time he wrote it.

It has absolutely no critical value at
all and omitted almost everything of
value.

Radhasoami Tradition is a great book,
except it contains Beas propoganda
regarding Jaimal.

Radhasoami Reality I consider an
unforgiveable book. It should have been
published under a Beas label. Not
Juergensmeyer's name.

It was written strictly as a money maker,
with complete, total and absolute
disregard for scholarship.

There is more substance to a marshmellow.
And, marshmellows on the bag, disclose
their contents.

Pure sugar.

[TonyM]

Mike,

You may have information I am not privy to. Nonetheless, I found both texts to provide a useful overview of the tradition and an excellent starting point.

The fact that they are written by professional academics, gives them a little extra authority in my view. And if it is true that one of the writers was on the Beas board at the time, it may make it easier for Anonymous' wife to have a read.

But as all books are written by humans, there is bound to be some bias in every book.

Incidentally, I do also recommend you work at

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

Anonymous, I think your wife would be interested to know that the author of the Beas book 'Life is Fair' is actually Brian, the administrator of this Blog. That knowledge may encourage her to read some material here.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tony,

I understand your point. I knew Dave,
Maheswari, Prof. Agam Mathur,
many years before these clubs began.
There was one at Dayal Bagh my mind
forgets now.
Maheswari died a long time ago.

These are the historians that were in print.
As you know I was initiated by most groups.

There is a vast wealth of actual hard
historical documentation, available to
this day.

None of this showed up in Radhasoami
Reality. Literally everything
negative to Jaimal and Sawan was omitted
from this book.

This is crushing evidence beyond refute.
Hard documents, which no group has ever
contested.

Shouldn't Radhasoami Reality have told people Jaimal was chastised for posing as
a Guru and being excommunicated just three
days before his death ? By Chachaji
and Sudarshan.

Court depositions, Council logs.
All hard evidence.

There is absolutely nothing of value
to a true seeker in this book. In fact
it makes it seem there was nothing wrong
with Jaimal and Sawan at all and everything
was normal.

Radhasoami Reality is a disgrace to
academics. It should be removed from the
market immediately, or very substantially
updated with all the omitted material.

The fact it has not been, when the author is
now clearly aware of his mistakes, shows
academics is slow to admit mistakes.

They get locked into a position too embarassing to correct. Juergensmeyer
is well of his mistakes also, by the ghost
writer.

Why hasn't he corrected them ?

Arrogance. In your face arrogance.

Yet, I display Dave's book Radhasoami
Tradition in capital letters as a link.

Faquir Chand was popularized by my website.
Faquir's book only sold 2000 copies at first.
Now it is being read by tens of thousands
of people because I linked it a few different times as it moved.

So, I have moved Dave into the spot light.

So, I do recommend Dave's work and have
popularized it.

All of a sudden Radhasoami Beas Secret
History has broght forward Faquir Chand,
Maheswari, Dave and U. G. Krishnamurti.

Even Brian is now linked, as he has the only
high quality Radhasoami Club.

Only 1% of hits come from people searching
Google. It has run by word of mouth.

This shows people are dying for hard
facts. They want to know the truth.

That's why Brian's club is so popular.

It will grow and expand. I don't have the
slightest doubt Gurinder would pay Brian
$20,000,000 to remove this club.

[TonyM]

Mike,
Were you initiated with the Soami Bagh group? Are you able to comment whether their initiation differs at all from the Beas/Ruhani groups?
Cheers

[Account Deleted]

Mike williams,
I have read the secret history of beas,
there is less of truth and more of ideas written in it.

Shiv dayal singh ,always favored and liked jaimal singh a lot than any other disciple.

And it has been known by all the close associates of RSSB beas as well as Shiv dayal singh.

They are still few alived who can disclose you more true facts about shiv dayal singh,
but the thing is you need to find them.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tony M. and Mack Ara,

Tony M., I was initiated live by Dr. Professor Agam Mathur,
great grandson of Salig Ram, founder of Radhasoami Faith.
Master at Peepal mandi and listed as 8th greatest historian in Indian.
Mathur is Vice chancellor at Agra College, which was begun by Salig Ram.

I have had many discussions with Dr. Mathur on the history of Radhasoami Faith.

There is a slight difference in their initiation. These groups go beyound
Sach Kand. So, at initiation, they teach the higher chakras on the top
of the head and corresponding lights and sounds, which are not given
to Beas people.

Hi Mack Ara,
Yes, I was in communication with historian Maheswari while alive and
have very many letters from him. Of course he was from Agra Group proper.
The greatest RS Historian of all time by all admissions, he was truly a
remarkable man. Maheswari once told me his history was writen for future
generations and it demanded he be absolutely deadly accurate. He stated to
me if future generations ever found one thing wrong in his history they
would discount everything.

Although Maheswari spoke English, I had to have someone else whom spoke
English translate to me on phone. Same with Agam Mathur on phone.

I came to learn there is nothing more difficult to understand than an Indian
trying to speak English. (grin)

Neither Agam Mathur, nor Maheswari had any evidence Jaimal Singh ever came
face to face with Swami Ji. It is extremely unlikely Swami Ji ever knew
whom Jaimal was.

Yes, I have debunked Beas version of Bibi Ruko and so on in my book
Radhasoami Beas Secret History.

You may find it interesting Gurinder does not dispute my facts
in my book. Facts which exist to this day as historical documents.

Jaimal Singh was a child molester, whom lived in a house down the street
from Salig Ram's satsang and attended Salig Ram's satsangs, before Salig
Ram had him thrown out. Salig Ram's successor Shankar Misra also
evicted Jaimal out of his satsang.

Chachaji and his son (Sudarshan) both presented measures to have Jaimal
excommunicated from from the group, which was approved by full Council vote.

Even in an era where girls were mistreated, Agra Radhasoami had enough
decency to kick Jaimal out. Jaimal lived with two little girls in
his house.

Jaimal was a nobody. Two bit scam artist.

[Mike Williams]

Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - Down By The River (Big Sur, CA 1969)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxs0ybnsEQ&feature=related

This generation has found its voice on Wall Street in what will be the greatest battle mankind will ever fight against the New World Order.

May their passion equal the passion of my generation of the 70's and may our hearts be with them.

[Catherine]

Mike, the Peepal mandi group that you were initiated by: would you at present see yourself as a follower of that group's interpretation of Sant mat. To quote you- ' These groups go beyond Sach Khand.'... Do you actually believe this?

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tara,
Th evolution of Radhasoami Beas Secret History was quite
unusual. Oddly, Indians know Salig Ram was the founder
of Radhasoami. But, people in the West always think
Swami Ji was the founder.

How could Beas leave Salig Ram out of their lineage
when he was the founder ? That is like leaving out
Jesus from Christianity and saying John the Baptist
was the founder.

But, when Beas broke from Agra group after 1915
it became legally necessary for Beas to cut its ties
from Peepal Mandi. The actual date Beas broke was
1918-1919.

Sawan self declared himself a master. Jaimal did not
appoint him. Chachaji, Swami Ji's brother, forced Sawan
to take over the activity at Beas against his will when
Jaimal died.

Beas was officially a branch of Agra and Peepal Mandi
until 1918. So, from 1902 to 1918, Beas was controlled
from Agra Council Gurus (and Chachaji, its president).

So, my Secret History was not quite as negative on Beas
as it might seem. Because although Jaimal was a horrible
fake guru, literally being excommunicated when he died...
Sawan was placed by Chachaji at Beas.

Gurinder realised this and that's why he was not so upset
at my history. Gurinder realized there was a provinance
at Beas via Sawan.

Even though no one ever appointed Sawan a guru, he was
connected to Chachaji. Sawan did continue to go to the
Agra Gurus and sit at their feet in the crowds with everyone
else until the death of Babuji Maharaj.

Sawan was not the Great Master, Babuji Maharaj was.

The Beas group has never had a ligitimate master at
any time.

Only the Agra Gurus were ever ligitimate.

[Tom]

Sawan was not the Great Master, Babuji Maharaj was.

The Beas group has never had a ligitimate master at
any time.

Only the Agra Gurus were ever ligitimate.

Yea right, to your brain only.Gurinder didn't react to your stories cause nobody react to your stories any more nor David Lane nor Brian cause why would anybody to react to your stories cause you are to much in your movie. You have also your interpretation of shabd yoga that iz is by your claim kundalini yoga. And you tell that Shabd yoga makes you schizo, so if i buy your story and you were initiated by many gurus so you have many different schizophrenias and you also than tell that Brian is a schizo and David Lane also. So i don't buy your stories Mike cause i know you are not schizo and so is not Brian and David Lane who still meditates just like they were before on 'beas' mantra.I hope Mike when people will start to ignore you here like they did on yahoo groups you will not go away like you did there cause nobody bought into your Harry Potter stuff anymore, cause you seem nice guy to me. and Mike many many thing are way different of what you preach why don't you sit up in a peaceful corner and relax a bit cause that will filter your views and you will see clearer. Peace Mike

[Mike Williams]

Hi Catherine,
I do not believe in Radhasoami, nor
the inner planes of Radhasoami. So,
I speak figuratively. The initiation
of Peepal Mandi gives the original
initiation of Salig Ram. Agra also
adopted the Salig Ram initiation.

I believe there are inner dimensions,
through which positive and negative forces
can move in and through people.

Hi Tom,
Actually David Lane and myself have
been screaming bloody murder over
Radhasoami History.

I was in a better position of not having
any formal ties to any group, so I was nominated
to write Radhasoami Beas Secret History.

I have been in communcation with Gurinder,
via reps from the beginning of this process.

I made it clear I was not out to destroy Beas.
Gurinder understands this. That's why Gurinder
says publically Radasoami Beas Secret History
is factually correct.

My book does show Beas was ligitimate from
1902 to 1918, because the Agra Guru did
comission Beas to give satsang.

Gurinder DOES understand my purpose for the
book was to get to Kirpal and Ruhani Group,
now under Rajinder.

And, Gurinder does say my information about
Kirpal is devestating. Which is why he likes
the book.

David Lane also specifically wrote an entire book
against Kirpal called Radhasoami Tradition, which
is prominantly displayed on my web site. I also
feature Faquir Chand, a David Lane book.

Both these books only sold a few thousand copies.
By placing them on my web site now tens of
thousands of people have read them. They
have both now become underground classics.

So, why did Dave and I get so upset with Kirpal ?
That we would write entire books to debunk Kirpal ?

I personally believe the Kirpal lineage to be the
most dangerous cult on the earth.

I am extremely convinced an extremely NEGATIVE
power runs through the Kirpal lineage. Many people
are INFECTED by this negative power.

So, with David Lane and I, I see no difference in
what we are saying. Dave and I are exactly opposite
types of people in life. But, we do agree on almost
everything, although we took different roads to
come to the same conclusions.

And, by the way, David Lane linked Radhasoami Beas Secret History to
his college web site over 10 years ago.

We were writing letters to each other and talking on the phone years before clubs came on line. He invited me to his clubs.

[Tom]

ok Mike i am good with that but where did you find schizo thang. If we confirm you than we are all schizos You,me lane.Brian. sorry but i do both some hatha stuff like crazy asanas and prana,and i do shabd technique and there is no trace of so called kundalini in which i personaly do not bellive but with shabda technique i get nowhere near schizo and quazi as you say kundalini stuff.

[Mike Williams]

Hi Tom,
Yes, surat shabda is kundalini yoga.
But, I do not believe kundalini exists.
Rather glands and hormones and neurons.

Suppressed sexual energy can cause
madness, visions and sounds. This
throws the subconscious into
consciousness. Indians call suppressed sex energy Ojas. They say this clears the
path for kundalini up the sushumna.